Open Table Talks | Session 12

well hello and good afternoon again at least for here it's afternoon welcome back to table talks and for those of you are just joining us for the first time maybe let me introduce everybody that's here on the panel there's father Kenneth Tanner and Paul Young Baxter Kruger Brad Jers AK and Katie scourge oh and then myself I'm John McMurray and we're glad you could join us again before we start into our topic for today Katie had some follow-up thoughts about yesterday's topic sir Katie wants you go ahead and do those yeah Brad and I were going to do an offline conversation about this but we didn't have time Brad was saying yesterday that in response to the idea of being willing to be convinced of the opposite that like something toxic like penal substitution would not be something you know that he'd wouldn't would want to be willing to be convinced and he and I have gone around about this before but I the more I thought about it I was you know going back to what I said yesterday that there's a time for discernment and there's a time for conversation and I correct me if I'm wrong Brad but I think what you would have a hard time with would be to discerning about something like that but discernment is B is between two rights it's between two two good things that's not a good thing so it's not what I'm saying is I'm not willing to be convinced in a discernment kind of way because that's not something that I hold to be true but I'm willing to be convinced of the opposite in the sense of like a conversation like anything in a conversation which is the difference between a discernment in the conversation so what I would like in that too is is if somebody said they told me I have magic powers and I can if I touch something than it will defy gravity and so they stand on the roof and if I stand on the roof and drop this Apple then it's going to defy gravity okay I could be willing to be convinced of the opposite let's go and look at that rise my that's the difference is what I am so I'm willing to hear I'm willing to hear your best argument and in fact I think what I love the expression steel Manning it's the opposite of straw Manning and that is I want I want to I want to hear the best of what I'm not convinced Tubbs and even be able to reflect it to you in a way that says you you've accurately portray what I'm saying in fact before I ever repeated the gospel in chairs publicly I ran it by device one of the vice presidents at the Bible College where I learned penal substitution and I said is this a fair portrayal of of your position and he did not buy into the gospel in chairs but he but he said yes that was a that is that is fair that is what we would say and so subsequently when I'm told I'm caricaturing or straw Manning I know I'm not actually and that that's just a new fallacy called the whatever yeah the spot no true Scotsman fallacy but anyway but I get what you're saying Katie it's not like I genuinely believe that I'm gonna be talked back into it but I'm willing to hear the very best argument so that I'm not strong Manning is that what you mean exactly the way like Paul was talking about it being curious and closing the door on any conversation and and going okay well let's let's look at this I mean I'm about as convinced that that's true is that the Apple is not going to fall if you drop it from the roof but okay maybe the earth is gonna stand still in that moment and it will who knows part of that part of the beautiful thing about what you're saying is that it creates a space so that both parties can move right now so much of our argumentation is to just to shut down the space and and so it that that's a good thing for me and I think Brad you're incredibly gifted at at doing this in in terms of how you even write your little articles your and it comes across very pastoral II because the pastoral side is to create a larger space so that you can have some freedom to breathe and move and and and that's really good for me because it's not how it used to be it used to be like I'm just I'm gonna shut you down with whatever argument I can think up at the moment and and say it in such a way that in insinuates that you're stupid and hides the fact that I think that I am well the other thing about you know when I refer to the limbic brain it's a willingness to be convinced of the opposite invites someone out of limbic brain into their prefrontal cortex and so a person could stand be in limbic brain and drop something from the roof and they could convince themselves that it actually did defy gravity for a split second and you just missed it right but dead men do bleed Oh after all that dead men don't you know whatever whatever that you know that little story is about you know the guy that believes that that everybody's dead poke Coke's and and it's always key so the argument was the doctor goes like well do dead men bleed and he goes well no so the doctor pricks him with it with that needle and he starts to bleed he goes oh my gosh dead men do bleed but so it's it's just a way to stay in relationship and I don't have to fight with anybody I don't I just don't want to fight and you know in that blog post that was yesterday there's a link to it on a handout that delineates the difference between a conversation and discernment and one of them in a conversation is the ability to steal man and not straw man that you're in a fight if somebody's straw Manning you yep thanks Katie no I know we could get to the right to the same page bread we were a kindly word or timely question is worth thousand arguments absolutely especially an honest one right Baxter I couldn't hear you very well could you repeat that for me timely what a timely word or question is worth a thousand organs or sermons yeah and that that means that it is really important that you're paying attention to what the person is saying you're listening to them and you're waiting for a moment of openness to ask an honest time to question and that covers a lot more turf yeah there requires a relationship on the front end or you die ever gonna get to that place yeah just sound true I think it was an Lamont that said no one's ever been argued into the kingdom right a man convinced to get sue against his wheels of the same opinion steal another good one so okay incarnation domination yes so so we have a virtual campus coming up wait wait this is a commercial break this out this is we know it was for a module from our sponsor John so thanks Paul we do have a conference coming up and that is going to be June 27th and 28th it's gonna last eight hours both days you'll have 10 minutes on every hour to break and there'll be an hour break in the middle but everything will be online all the people that you see here on the panel plus a half a dozen more will be speaking there'll be questions a response there will be panels like this there will be what zoom calls zoom rooms or what we would call break where you'll have the chance to meet with one of these individuals and actually it can be interactive where you'll see all of your faces and be able to talk with each other for an hour about whatever that topic is whether it's with Paul or Katy Brad whoever it might be and you can register for that at Open Table Conference dot-com and it'll be last in two days the whole event will be recorded so we don't expect you to watch the whole thing at once and sit in front of your computer for two days eight hours a day so we're recording it you can go back and watch whatever you want the advantage of watching it live is that you can ask a question or comment so hope you can join us for that okay now back to our write very scheduled program so anyway we're actually we're excited about it I'm excited about it I don't know about these guys but I'm excited about trying something very different for us is we all believe very much in relationship face to face and yet this is offered the next best thing at this point but it also offers something that the face to face doesn't and that means it's available to people who can't actually physically come to Portland Oregon where we would be having the conference and that I think is a is a huge plus so yeah we hope you can join us the topic that I wanted to introduce today because we're gonna we have today and tomorrow for the table talks and then that'll probably be the last ones that we do before the conference and then we may pick them up again later in the summer but we wanted to kind of circle back to what I would just think some foundational thoughts and ideas and and of all the things that we've been talking about the various topics and subjects where we in our friendship the people on this panel and our relationship has been ground did in what grounds us to the perspective that we have and that that grounding is the Lord Jesus and as a as a guy who grew up in the church ever since I could remember my parents took me to church I can remember as a young man reciting the Apostles Creed every week and waiting for the opportunity where I could take a nap turn and I whatever and but having grown up in the church all my life hearing about how God became a man and hearing about what we call the Incarnation or the in Fleshman of God and then I went on to Bible College and from Bible College I went and served in a church for four years as a youth pastor and then I went to seminary I got my master's degree and then served teaching in a Bible School and served in another church and on and on it went into the decades of my my relationship with the things that I had learned and had started learning even as a young child and through all of it I think one of the biggest I mentioned yesterday the idea of a domino and the first domino for me was this whole concept of being right that until that was ready to kind of topple and fall over I wasn't I wasn't ready to consider anything else but the thing that surprised me so much was how little I understood of the Incarnation and that's a troubling statement for me personally because I had spent so much time in the church world and in Bible College and in seminary and then serving as a leader in the church world and yet what I knew and understood of the Incarnation was pathetic would be a little too strong of a word but it's not too far off it was my version of the incarnation was really a modern-day version of invasion of the body snatchers you've ever watched that movie familiar with a movie aliens come in pods and they take over a body by recreating the body and so it's it's a body but it's an alien inside the body and that's what Jesus was God just and dwelt a human body like you pour water into a pitcher and the body is just an object that he decided to indwell that's not the same time John I know thank you and but that was that was that's the way I used to think of it and and I'm not saying I thought of that that way when I was 15 I did when I thought about it when I was 15 which was very rare but I'm talking about when I was 35 45 years old this is how I was thinking about the Incarnation and so I wanted to visit just this a little bit because it is kind of the ground where we all grow from to use that metaphor so I wanted to start with a concept that we've talked about if you remember in the very first table talks that we had we talked about this a little bit but this is a statement from TF Torrance in his little book the mediation of Christ and this is what he says what is implied in the Pauline teaching that Christ in whom the complete being of God dwells dwells in us so that through a relation of mutual indwelling between Christ and us we are unfolded within the infinite dimensions of the love of God what this means or how the Greek fathers used to speak of this was and he uses the word theosis and here's how he explains this this refers to the utterly a green act of God in which he gives himself to us and adopts us into the communion of his divine life and love through Jesus Christ in his one spirit yet in such a way that we are not made divine but we are preserved in our humanity and that perspective of the Incarnation this staggering act of God where he includes us into the very life of the father-son spirit of the very life of his being was a foreign concept to me after decades of teaching the Bible and I'm not I'm not sure how that happens other than I repeatedly read the Bible with a really bad pair of sunglasses on because I read it over and over and over and nothing broke through that blindness at that point in my life so that's what we wanted to talk a little bit about and so I want to throw it out to you guys that's a including UK for us to consider and how you reflect on that in your own personal journey or things that you've read wrote teach etc and I've got silence mark this mark this well right here this moment one one mistake I made I think I hear it a lot in the especially in the in the evangelical church it's a simple mistake thinking that the Incarnation is the moment of conception or the birth of Christ where whereas it's the union of God and humanity for not only for his whole lifetime but whatever glorified humanity looks like he's still that it's permanent and forever and and so yeah it didn't cook but we typically celebrate at Christmas so then it got reduced to Christmas and so that's that's a basic oversight but pretty important though and now we're seeing seeing through it if if the point of the coming of Jesus is to go the cross to pay for our sins in the Incarnation itself is reduced to nothing other than the guarantee that we have a spotless sacrifice and the Ascension becomes essentially meaningless so you don't hear preaching on the Ascension I remember years ago when I was talking about the Ascension of Christ which is is mind-boggling to think that that bone of our bone and flesh of our flesh is transfigured mind you but nevertheless it's inside everything that it means to be divine inside the Holy Spirit inside the Father forever in order that that becomes the gift given to us you're you're in a world apart difference there than in the fatal substitutionary kind of thing and I remember preaching a series of sermons on the Ascension years ago and at a certain denominational renewal retreat from about bunch of pastors and elders and whatnot and they I couldn't believe it that quit are you getting this back I've never heard anybody talk about this anymore what do you mean why is this important to you and truly dumped on it that they had never thought about it it never really crossed their mind well it's because of what they're looking for what they're looking for is that we have a sacrifice that covers our sins and some sort of extrinsic way and so you get that and then you move on and you and you miss that the gifts given to us and Earth in our body so that we can share it fully is exactly what the father-son the spirit have had for all eternity we are heirs of God joint heirs with Jesus included in that family so the implications of that are absolutely mind-boggling and that's to me that's what Christian theology is Christian theology is thinking through the implications of Jesus's identity what are the implications for the very being of God what indicates for the human race that he ascended and and Stephen solid he's thought first it was a fulfillment of Jesus prophecy in that day you will know that I'm in the father and you're in me and I'm in you and when Stephen was being stoned to death thief he looked and he saw the man Jesus the Incarnate son standing out of the right side the right hand of God the Father and he said he saw that's the gift that's the whole purpose of the coming that's whole purpose of creation isn't isn't that why he got stoned I mean didn't the stoning start because he said that he said I see I see the Son of Man a human being right and and obviously they were aware of how what a rebellious heretical thing to declare you know it was anathema to them so much so that it says they gnashed their teeth at him and began casting the stones it was what he saw in the ascension that changed everything who comes to hermeneutic if it comes our way of thinking and looking seeing I mean all sudden for example I see just like said greetings 8 9 begin to leap off the face but you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ that though he was rich he became poor that we might be made wealthier rich with his poverty the whole purpose and even Calvin talks about the the wonderful exchange which he's getting from the early church fathers because their understanding that that son of God became what we are to bring us to be what he is that's told apart worlds apart from he went to the cross and did something so that God would forgive us for our sins what we've been given in Jesus is everything that God is and it's in a way that we can relate to it's only up sorry we are seated now yeah in Christ in heavenly places face to face with the Father in the Holy Spirit above all real authority in this age in every age that comes to me the question from that point home is it yes this is the truth then why aren't we experiencing more of this and through the years I've realized that that your expectations are turned by your theology you know if if you're telling me that I'm included in Jesus of 1900 the spirit or I will say I want we don't have experience that so that's been the journey for me it is really how to experience what Jesus is experiencing right now when he hears the father say you're my beloved Son in whom I'm well pleased he doesn't bite his fingernails he didn't worry about the Pharisees he's not worried about the old Babylon taking over the world he is experiencing undiluted joy in and he is in us sharing that and we are theology I think is far mythologies with a tenacious code it's just this like a gnarled wet rag that we just pushed down on so that we don't even ask those questions so a lot of where we're stuck then is we're stuck in the crucifixion right you know we haven't even yeah I think we're stuck I think we're stuck in the externals like this is all done on the outside and this is why in in my church and in my growing up we talk so much about trying to figure out how we can be transformed because everything was a belief to us everything was external to us and it wasn't really transforming me inside so we're trying to figure out how to do that and it's more faith it's more Bible study it's more more and more and more or whatever which is just performance yeah I think part of it comes from you know Christmas as a season starts after Thanksgiving now it's focused on all kinds of things you get to the one day where some people worship collectively were seated in at the right hand of the Father collectively so we it's a social thing not just me but because Paul is seated at the right hand of the Father I am to you and Katie and so forth and so on but the social worship of this event is confined to a 12 24 30 it's our period the mystery is too great and I love how Baxter goes to the essential because one of the helpful ways to think about this is that the son of God she did at the right hand of the Father has memories of what it means to be human so he has memories of you know of meals with friends he has memories of you know falling and scraping as me as a child and having Mary collect him into his arms and and hold him in comfort I mean he has memories of being cold and having to cloak himself against the desert areas memories of being hungry and thirsty he has memories of being betrayed the son of God see that the right hand of the father has memories of what it means to die as a human God has the memories of what it is like the guy and the person of the son so um he the all of these experiences he takes up into what it means to be God and and raises us all up with him collectively socially into this new humanity so we get back to something like incarnation and the birth and everything we start thinking in terms of the one who who spoke all of these things into being is now subject to time and subject to thirst and you know Mary does it pick him up out of the manger the feed trough and nurse him he you know he's got to she's got to nurse him Joseph has to protect them and take care of him he is as fragile as any of us nuts not a Superman this is the one who who spoke all these these are stars that are in the sky above them spoke those things into being now he's under them he creates the wood that of the trough that holds them and he's holding that wood together at the same time that he is a baby in that feed trough unable to feed himself or do anything all of these things happening at one time this is the poverty that are our face and at least and I can only speak for America this is one of the great poverty's of the way we have not been introduced to an encounter with this human god and it's one of our vocations I think as OpenTable to get out there and really introduce people to the fullness of what it means to be human and the fullness of what it means to be God in the person this in this person Jesus Kenneth a preaching I like what you're saying I I think that it's important understand the Incarnation in light of what I call original shame and that happened in the garden and that's the shame of being human and so God had to experience all those things that we do as human to be able to redeem humanity that we judged and when we make the cross about the about a sin we can actually still bypass the need to accept our humanity we we also we also reduced the cross to Good Friday and the crucifixion whereas in the New Testament the cross represents the whole weekend so that's why Paul can say I glory in nothing but the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ well he doesn't just mean his death he doesn't just mean the crucifixion he means all that the cross revealed about the father through the son by the spirit Friday and in the conquest Saturday and then even cross as a metonym that includes the resurrection and ascension ultimately I suppose but what we did is we read cross literally and then reduce it down to this violent active lose the plot it's important also to realize that the necessity of the crucifixion of Jesus is that the life that he shares with his father that he's brought into our humanity now takes shape in the deepest darkest abyss he turned over every leaf of our shame a relief of our brokenness every leaf of our sin and he brought his father and the Holy Spirit with you now so that that gift is given not to us and that's why John is insistent in Paul too that the word became flesh not that's not only human but flesh you entered into that is the mystery not only how does God become human but how does the one who is at the face to face the Father becoming human and enter into our brokenness when we cannot see a thing where we don't even want God and that's that's the meaning of the Cross of the crucified incarnate son and he feels I like to say that the Holy Spirit took accepted our rejection and damnation of the son and said I will turn your rejection and damnation of Jesus into the temple where I dwell now let's talk that's that thing that's why let's like sweet that son and I will tell I will take you I will take your betrayal and your covenant breaking of my son and turn it into the mercy seat where I embrace you they accept you at your absolute worst and turn us into the new covenant that your only contribution was to reject the truth son that's to me if you don't have that you don't really have Christian faith because you're still trying to do something to get in so it's not a response of joy it's a it's our we just turned faith into a work where faith is the discovery and the belief of what is there God the Father in the son and the holy spirit in the son met me all of us at our most wicked worst embraced us and made us their children there forever now wake up that's the that's the process that I think is happening around the world right now it's so much more breeze but Paul that's with the chef but I mean the Shack brings you face to face in who doesn't want to be in that relationship well you already are we need an altar call right now or an offering in time and you know elder sophrony says you know if there's one person left in hell we can be sure of one thing that God in Jesus Christ is sitting with in that space in in them and you can be sure one thing also I'm like become like Jesus you're gonna want to go and help thank you so it seems incredibly trite when we talk about the gift of eternal life as a commodity or a thing that God gives to people a transaction you know yeah and that's what we've done and so no wonder I spent so much of my life trying to figure out well how does this actually transform me when it was it's just this information that doesn't even get back store what you're saying it doesn't even get to the the actual truth of what the gift is who the gift is and that's part of the answers of the question yesterday is as the light shines in us and at the very very least relieves us of fear that shines off our faces and that's a conversation starter argument theologically and truth you can either have truth as an abstract intellectual T and reason based or a relationship to a person who is who is the embodiment of truth because God is truth you know I'd like to say there's only two hills that I would die on and one is the Trinity and the other one is incarnation and the Trinity says I am in God and the Incarnation says God is in me that's the hill that Jesus Jesus died on it so all the question about TF Torrance is a statement that you read at the very beginning yeah there's a line in there that I I just want to revisit and ask you about and that has to do with where he says not so that we would become divine but something about our fullness of humanity that line right it's about almost to the end of what you read and if you can read that again and my question is what do you think he's trying to communicate in in that part of it because he's not communicating separation between our humanity and the divine in the sense that we are we are of Love's kind I mean that's the basis for our identity so is he is he just sensitive to the idea that somehow in our you know developmental spiritual journey that somehow we become God is that what he is sensitive to or is he is it more nuanced than that so you can use to speaking about the ocean speaking about the Incarnation in the context of Western externalism okay good explain that Baxter well I mean he he wants to try to draw as many people into the conversation and as many people in this beautiful reality of Jesus as you can and he knows that he just throws that the word theosis and throws up divinization then every evangelical across the board just puts the book that he does that in several places where he will even use the language of propitiation I think he does in that book and me but what he means is more anyway I think it's purely an attempt on his part to say something in a way it doesn't run people out of room immediately that's kind of stay seriously and it reminds us that it's that to be whatever theosis is it's a humanization not a dehumanization well we don't become the fourth person of the Trinity and in our process and we and we don't lose our human personhood to Nirvana I can show you in John Murray's redemption to Compton five and sectional adoption where he says it is sometimes said by men in modern theology that they're men by union with Christ and by adoption become divine and share in the sonship of Jesus this is grave error he says no one shares in the sonship as he is the son of God alone enough that the whole point is that everything that Jesus is with his relation with his father in the other sphere has been given to us so if we're gonna err let's err on that side you know you're holding two things together we're not going to leave our bodies behind John like what you said you know Jesus just can't feel the body we're not leaving our bodies they'll be transfigured what they transfigured with their treasure with the life of God is that less than life no that is literal the everlasting eternal life of the father son spirit so that's what Paul says we are heirs heirs of God joint heirs with Jesus wasn't this always true what's that that that's the truth of who we've been the whole time we just were absolutely blind to it and tell in space and time we see it yeah you know that and so otherwise we're trying to get from one spot to another man I'm saying I'm asking the question poorly let me bounce it back at you'd pull how about this he must incarnate in space and time for it to always have been true that's what I'm trying to say yeah yeah that's exactly what I'm trying to say for the proleptic idea I mean the John and Paul the creation of the universe was called into being in and through the incarnate crucified resurrected send his son so yes it's always been true that that's mind-boggling but that's what they see they see this person Jesus oh my goodness he was there in the beginning but so it had to become historical it had become earth I had to become human that had become incarnate and he was slamed from the time of the beginnings right you know yes and that he has to be in he has to be slain in time and space for him to be slain from the beginning does that mean we just have to lose linear time when we're talking about this and this is why you know bear pushes back and I've heard I think Baxter introduced it to me but pushes back against a pre-incarnate word has ever been a time in eternity when the word did not directly relate to the incarnate his incarnate experience because he's outside of all space and time but no I just look at revelation 12 I mean he John puts the Nativity right there the woman clothed with the Sun she's giving birth to the child you know that will rule the world was a rule the nations with a rod of iron quoting Psalm 22 and then you've got you've got in the memo in that moment you've also got fall of Satan and and a third of the angels and I mean it's you know in that perspective and that eternal perspective it's all one event because it's of course an eternity all present at the same time and then that's the birth of really apocalyptic writing he said that these men and these people when they would go into the veil of the temple temples of the first temple they actually would turn and look back and on the veil let see all history and then they come you come back how do you are you gonna talk about something that is going to happen in 15 thousand years but when they did give specific dates it's quite amazing the annual news actor born in 90 years but I think that that bursts a new way of thinking and talking just like that when you and discover Jesus in you and you see him and other people it creates spontaneously a relationship and a conversation and an awareness that then you don't know where that's going to go so you're you not only see yourself seated in heavenly places but you don't meet anybody who's not yes which which then is okay why what the question for us then is why do we recognize people now according to the flesh rather than according to Christ that's the ethic if you want to put it that way that we are called to recognize no one according to merely human there are no just humans there's only human beings in jesus thin father in the spirit now we talk about go ahead yeah and back sorry I was just gonna say just the first Christians and understanding there's a one human nature there's only one human nature and Jesus takes the one human nature which we are all participating it into God and so you don't have a he doesn't have an alien human nature is the same human nature and so anyone that we encounter he has taken the one human nature that we all share up into to in his in his relationship so the implications of this are mind-boggling and that's I said earlier that's the job and the joy of Christian theology it's our job and joy to think through this this event this person what on earth does it mean that the Son of God became a human being now in his humanity is that the right hand the Father and we're in him what does that mean well that's real theology that's what what does it mean like give us one example of an implication or takeaway that we could grab today from that because that is the enormous it number one that we were just talking about for me it means that I am to recognize no human being as simply a human being there is no just human there is no ordinary there are human beings who are in this relationship are included in this life and they may not have a clue body it may be killing them that they don't know about that they may be bored they may be dressed and that may be what I would consider an enemy but wait a minute wait a minute so that the older liberal of tradition said you know talk about the Fatherhood of God the Brotherhood man we don't need all this Jesus stuff in the middle we're all sons and daughters of God we're all what they were trying to get at with some level of commonality well the level of commonality is Jesus it's you know it's not created in into God although you can talk about that if by that you mean Jesus and created image and likeness of Jesus so the implications of this and so I just finished writing the foreword for um Keith child's his new book on the unexpected Jesus and it was a very point that I was making them forward with respect to his things we want to rethink everything we thought we knew now that we understand that Jesus is in the Father we're in here that changes that means that when you come to ask ecology anything that smacks of absent Jesus now or an absent King now is wrong let's just find that wrong so man you can hear cosmic that's kind of logical plus cooling off but right now we know they're like we're almost out of time so I want to I know this is awesome that's right that if you can't see the Christ or the imago Dei and another person that says more about you than the other person yeah yeah so I also Baxter I want to ask this real quick do you think that professor Torrance was May I don't know maybe hinting at when referring back to Paul's question about the statement that he makes about theosis and you were you were saying he he was saying this trying to be careful about the externals but was there I think was there a place where he's trying to say we're not fully human we don't really truly know who we are as human beings until we become aware of where we are who we are I didn't say that well that's sounded really bad well if you take again if Jesus is identity is there hermeneutic then we don't know what a human being is except by looking at him here's a he he two bodies here's who what it means to be human is they are together in face to face oneness so there is no anthropology apart from Christology there is no way that we can access knowing who we are why we're here apart from seeing ourselves and everyone else with us in Jesus amen it's a high view of humanity and and I'm telling you we need a good dose of them I view of humanity in a high view of divinity every time I hear somebody say that you know we're you know being too high our humanity as you have not been a pastor you you get in the trenches with real people in the real world and you're gonna find out that people are suffering with the illusion that they are you know desperately dark and China and beyond redemption and that is the the default with human beings not not some not thinking too highly of them so they might not be aware of it sometimes they do a good job of hiding it with pride another change but so again we're at a time but one implication Baxter just to wrap this up can we say that in no longer seeing people according to the flesh that phrase you're referring to in 2nd Corinthians 5 that this eliminates categories for us when we look at other people and if it eliminates categories it should eliminate prejudice when you when when we recognize another person when we see the life of the joy or the radiance or the mercy or the compassion of the Father Son Spirit in them when we in the in the event of record how about recognizing that something happens between us in them that it is the kingdom it is the life it is the Trinitarian life of God coming to expression in that moment but we both move to a place that we could not get to on our own now that that's what the more that when Cornelius shirts beautiful and okay you guys John John we got it we got to say we're having a conference coming up again and I'm judging these guys and it's not going to just thank you six people there's not just the six people that you see here mercy Aikens gonna be there young people Scott Erickson it's gonna be part of this when I check Gabby be Eska as part of the Brian's on eat injure sac is gonna be part of it the Winship are gonna be part of it I mean this is going to be a lot of really and actually you John you know some of the other names but it's gonna be fantastic so we really want you you guys to come be with us for like two days and we need a big group small groups it's gonna be fun check it out

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Length: 47min 40sec (2860 seconds)

Published: Fri May 15 2020