Open Table Talks | Session 6

if you're tuning back with us welcome to table talks - glad you could be with us we have no idea how many people are but glad you're here we're good we're glad to be back together if you don't know if you weren't with us a couple weeks ago these are just informal conversations that last about 30 minutes or so between myself and Brad jursic Katie Scourge ah Paul Young Kenneth Tanner and Baxter Kruger and if you'd like you can hit the chat button on Facebook live or one zoom if you're whichever format you're using and you can send us a question that doesn't mean we'll necessarily get to it in real time but we'll do our best ok so glad you're back what we wanted to start with this week we hope you're all doing well we know that I know over the last couple weeks I've had the opportunity to think about the perspective that I look at everything through is a very privileged perspective and I am becoming more and more aware of people that are suffering and so if you're in that situation know that our prayers are with you our support and whatever ways we can give it are as well and for those who are working on the front lines our thoughts and prayers are with you as well so what we wanted to start to talk about today because a lot of the questions we got is it's about the words wrath and the concept of violence in the scriptures when it's attributed to God etc and I've asked Brad to maybe start us off with some thoughts about that so write your own ok yeah when John and I were connecting about it one of the initial questions is what does wrath mean what is that word how is it used and so you know there's a sense in which you could just talk about wrath as anger not flying off the handle or of control or losing your temper John presents that as a that's one way we actually do use brass but really the English word is problematic when it's assigned to God because it is it literally means violent anger that is anger that's expressed as violent to the one you're angry at so that's when anger moves to wrath is when you add the violence to it well then what are we going to do with a phrase like the wrath of God I resist the idea that God's anger is expressed as violence towards the towards people but let's be biblical so here's what I want to say about that the bots when the Bible uses words that we translate wrath the way they're used develop in in the scriptures and I see three major developments the first and the oldest and most ancient is probably this when we sin God is angry and so a holy God Raths us directly pours out violent anger upon those who have angered him a later development in the Old Testament is they're uncomfortable with God being the one who delivers the violence so then it works more like this we sin and again God is angry but a holy God can't wrap us directly so he sends the destroyer as his hit man to wrap us for him to keep his hands clean and then there's a third development in the scriptures where it's quite a shift where it's we sin and then sin itself Raths us the wages of sin is death or you could say the destroyer Raths us but God doesn't send a destroyer God sends his son and what is his son do he forgives our sin heals its consequences and then overcome the destroyer and it turns out the destroyers not God's hitman after all the destroyer is Abaddon who comes out of the pit and so that that's developing throughout the scriptures the word wrath is shifting and its use from this direct direct kind of actions of violence by God to the consequences of sin that are violent in her lives that bring about death in our lives but God's relationship to sin and anger wrath and the destroyer are all now shifting and towards a redeemer who who is going to overcome those problems and so what happens is once you know that once once you stop believing that God is the perpetrator of violent anger against people then you begin to read those old wrath passages through the lens of Jesus and if you're instead of just tossing those passages of the Bible you read them metaphorically and you say well when God when God says don't don't sin or you'll die he's not saying don't sin or I'll kill you he's saying daesil you know sin will bring about death and and where is God and that will God's our Savior but the Bible also used and this is where Romans 1 comes in the Bible will also use wrath as a metaphor for God giving us over and it uses that expression already in the prophets he gave them over to their defiance what is giving over to our defiance means it means consenting to our bad choices and giving us the dignity of turning from love and unplugging from life and experiencing the consequences that follow because he will not force us into obedience but he doesn't just consent to that so the consent in Romans 1 gave them over and there's consequences but he doesn't just consent to it he undergoes at himself he unites himself to humanity undergoes Wrath and then in that way heals it and so I think once you understand that the Bible uses Wrath metaphorically you can use it without seeing an impugning God's character it's not that he's vindictive or retributive it's rather it's it's the effects of sin that occur in the shadow we create when we turn from God now we also will use it in other ways like rat that wrath has God's opposition to everything in us that is not loved well that's a lot different than saying he's striking out in anger in a violent way and so you can hear where we're using it as a metaphor now - and we're still able to assign it to God as long as you don't literal eyes it so I think I'll stop there oh here's my closer John 10:10 it is the thief who steals kills and destroys I have come that you would have life and have it more abundantly that's God speaking there and so it's not God who steals kills and destroys that's the that's the that's the thief God is the life giver the enemy is the death dealer and so let's open it up back to you John or whoever else that was awesome I'm all ready to quit and I'm done for me that was awesome so so when George MacDonald for example uses the term punish he's using it inside this context because punish to us sounds different then the sending of the son to Co suffer with us in our bad choices you know so would you agree with that that's how McDonald was using it I know John is good and what he opposes he opposes that God opposes in us that which is not a blood kind or something like that right there yeah that's that's he's not gone on the mountain doing that to us go ahead their backs trickster macdonald saying that he's not bound by some code to punish sin he's bound by his love to destroy it and their face is all it is not of Love's kind must be destroyed so I see the wrath of God as a particular expression of his love because He loves us he is passionately opposed to our destruction so the the most striking example of the wrath of God and his opposition to our destruction is the Incarnation which includes the life and death of Jesus on the cross that's where God says it's most passionate and powerful know it not creates you to perish not on my watch and I've given you freedom and you've made a mess of things and I'm in it with you and Jesus in the person of Jesus the father comes and in the person of Jesus the Holy Spirit comes and they mutually submit themselves to us and our most dastardly worse and now a whole new conversation can start from the inside out that's Redemption I think one of the really important things here too is this is a point Baxter I remember you you were the person I think that introduced me to this years and years ago this is not something new you know Athanasius was really the guy who convinced you of this that this was this was the wrath of God him saying no to our destruction that's what he was saying what seventeen eighteen hundred years ago so this isn't we're putting some new spin on this to kind of get away from quote-unquote historical Christianity this is historical Christian yeah he he God opposes everything in us and in the creation that doesn't participate in the globe and I think we we take the word wrath we take the word anger and we we project the way we're angry or the way we're wrathful or the way we oppose things and we can't do that we have to look at the way that the Son of God and the flesh opposes what is not a participation in love and the way he opposes it is to take it in to take it onto himself take it into himself all of God offering all of God's self for the life of the world God he says to Abraham offered I'll provide the sacrifice for this so it's a very different way like we were always we take these responses human beings take these responses and then we're looking for vengeance we're looking for to take to settle the score to do all of these things this is not you know thank God if this is not the way that God behaves in human flesh he does it he opposes what doesn't participate in love in a very different way than we do it's an ironic rest and isn't it you know like it's the wrath that opposes destruction last week about parenting as a way to understand love they would love that we have for our children and and that God loves us at least as good as that and anybody who's had a child would love somebody like that child knows the kind of wrath the you that could come out when you want to go after the the child who's lost or the or to protect or I mean that's a love and a wrath together and anybody who can be honest who's had a teenager can can admit wrath that you feel towards a teenager sometimes when they keep you up late at night and they didn't call you or whatever I mean and and yet you just want to embrace them and throttle them all at the same time you know that you're and and you know it's like I love you go to sleep I'll talk to you in the morning because I'm I love you and I'm too angry to talk with you about this right now I think that we have to keep coming back to how we love our children and that God loves us at least as good as the best parent that we can imagine there's there's a layer here to the mythology we've been touching all around how we project our only interpretation and I remember when I was little I was playing out in the back and my mother came out the back door and she grabbed a ho h OE and she was running straight at me screaming and I mean I mean my interpretation is I'm done and so she kept saying run and I'm and I'm like and so I finally just took off running and I turned back around my mother was beating the absolute you-know-what out of a snake that was my feet from me I never saw they completely reinterpreted the whole situation for me there that's the that's the wrath but I swear I had to see her you know what she was really doing because I didn't know what I had done you know a well mouse was just playing but there was a snake and yeah there's a I think there's another layer of this too and that is I love the analogy of child you know what what we want to do to protect our children from things that are destructive to them and yet it also validates when when corruption has moved me when brokenness has moved me to hurt someone and how furious I am at myself for participation you know where where does that sense of this is wrong originated right and that it originates in the wrath of God it's opposed to anything which is not of Love's kind and so it so what I what I am not to do is to turn it into an accusation of shame which God would never do right but I'm to acknowledge that my own sense of fury at my own ignorance and stupidity and vulnerability and my potential to do damage is a mark of being made in the image likeness of God you know that that Fury is the fury of love for myself yeah because I can love anybody unless I love myself and thank God that God is wrathful to warn us you know towards the things that they stir this in us as well sometimes in unhealthy ways sometimes an unrighteous ways but that he purely opposes sexual abuse of children that he purely opposes slaughter of those who are made in His image he pure ly opposes jealousy and envy and our hatred of one another thank God you know there's a question about the restorative versus retributive justice and I think about when my younger son was about 12 and he'd gotten into trouble for something and and I told him that I needed to wait till dad got home and we were gonna talk about what the consequences would be and he was just stewing and stewing and stewing and he came to me and he said mom can you just tell me what my punishment is and I sat him down and I said but it's not a punishment there is no punishment and we want to teach you through this and I told him the word disciple came from the word teaching and that we just wanted to learn and his body was visibly relaxed and he's like I wish you told me that from the beginning oh but if we think that God is out to punish us then we are just going to be all tied up in knots he wants to teach us like the good parent does which is the great tragedy of the white people interpret the book of Revelation it just creates anxiety upon anxiety fear and finally people throw up their hands I'm not even leave I'm done with Church no with all this wrath and locust and fire and anger well it's not just revelation to Baxter it's how they interpret Jesus death to me I think one of the the salient points for me in that Katie was punishment doesn't have the power to redeem anything doesn't have the power to forgive anything it doesn't have the power to reconcile anything if the relationship is gone bad punishment doesn't make the relationship better so what why is it what is it in us that immediately goes to punishment as a solution or in Baxter's case I find it fascinating what isn't it in us that when you saw your mom you immediately thought it was your fault we need a sacrifice yeah because God has to have a sacrifice right don't even say that ma'am no I'm just saying that's why we say that if that's what we think yeah doesn't murder Joe to Verona shame doesn't it like we trip or we like we have this expectancy where did that that come from right and so then suddenly your mum is the is the Punisher and and but we and someone's asked I think can't kind of say you know how do we how do we actually experience wrath and I think there's two sides to that one is um we may experience wrath as those who love us embodying God's love opposing our self-destructive or others harming trajectory so it'd be like it when when Paul and I joke about our wives being the wrath of God we're actually not a joke in a sense they're embodying God's resistance towards or something destructive at work in us so so you can experience wrath in that way through those who love you but it's also intrinsic to the sins we commit and so I experienced the wrath of let's say acting out in terms of addiction or you know banging my head it's the wall I'm gonna get a couldn't get a big lumps there that that's the kind of giving over it's like well if you're not done go get done and when and and so that's what we call bottoming out with bottoming out is when you've come you when you're just so tired of the consequences of your own sin that you're willing to surrender to the care of a loving God so it can come from those who love but it can also come from the effects of what we're doing and what the whole spiritual realm is very mysterious to me but the the Bible talks about us also opening a door to the enemy and and and that is a form of Wrath as well whatever that is I do think it's liberating when we understand who we are in relationship to God and in his creation God God loves humanity God ISO identifies with humanity that becomes one of us forever um he it's for God to hate humanity would have to hate himself this is literally the gospel you know going off with what K Dias has said you know from her experiences and practice and everything else is you know God doesn't oppose it he loves the creation that he's made he loves this children it is the wrath is against evil and darkness and sin in us and in the creation he hates nothing that he's made is not beautiful that he says that to us so we I think that's where some of this confusion comes from is not understanding the created goodness of of the cosmos in the world the earth and and the created goodness of human beings and gods orientation towards creation God's orientation towards us that we confuse where the wrath is pointed at where the the opposition is pointed at and it is pointed at us and the son anything in us that's participating in it but not not not yeah we were up there with a whole division within the within the very being of God like you've got wrath and justice and holiness and righteousness on the one side and you've got love and grace and mercy and goodness on the other side and it's like all these things over here have to be satisfied in some some ritual or some profound way in in a legal way or whatever transaction yeah yes some transactions so then the love and grace and mercy of God can kind of be loving and gracious and merciful to us but it's really to me it's a startling discovery to realize that that these things are not opposites and that the love of the Father Son of Spirit is the bedrock of their ontology and everything is a variation on the theme all the attributes of God are different aspects of that one individual oneness of law so you don't set up these polarities where you you know it's like no I mean so now if I've got that vision of God in my mind and I'm beginning to believe that I can begin to look at him so so why is it that I feel that you're so disappointed or so angry or so full of fury at me what is going on you can have a different kind of conversation with the Lord rather than just being in denial or being in religious performance and take that yeah reams of people with you I like what Dale said on that question and answer sheet he said if judgment is redemptive and isn't wrath a form of liberation that's a great way of putting it and I like McDonald's that said that he says the only vengeance worth having on sin is to make the sinner himself its executioner right which is true of Jesus but it's also also true of our participation in our own lives right it's part of the and that's that's a tough thing in a sense you you know in a way you don't want God to have a high view of humanity you know one you want them to just fix things but this is this is a God who is always inviting our participation into the process of transformation because God God it's a relationship and it's not one where God will will take away your ability to choose at any point in fact the whole purpose of the restorative transformation is to free your will the freer your will the more you get to experience the love that has been there the whole time yes irony and a paradox too isn't it that the freest will is the most surrendered will yeah exactly and the most willful like the willful will is the most enslaved it's just quite a quite an irony mm-hmm upside down I back to a statement that you made earlier bran the beginning that I I think helps clarify is that because people often talk when we talk about this they talk about a penalty that somehow God is going to enforce some kind of penalty that usually comes out as punishment and he's he's just for doing so but you mentioned this that it's the wage of sin it's sins wage not God's not even money and so the way I always thought about it is that if I choose to play in sins backyard then sin says well this is the price it's death that's what it costs to play in my backyard and that's what we choose and and we so we experience death all the time and I my farm at his physical death but you know that dying in our relationships with others so it's not a penalty that God's somehow beholden to that he has to inflict on so that he remains somehow just you mean it's not a penalty imposed in addition to the misery that you're bringing on yourself or others are bringing onto you they give you they give you a quick fishing illustration when you pull a fish out of the water and it hits the bank it this doesn't sit there and wait for you to get a rod and it starts flopping and it desperately tries to get back in the water because what has happened is there has been an act that has jerked it out it out of its native environment and it hurts like hell and it wants to get back in there and may may know it's going to be fried but I think it's just but you don't have to do punishment and penalty on top of that to make a bounce around and try to get back in it so that's part of the design that's why Jesus says that I have come as light into the world that the one who believes in me may not remain in their darkness that we're in the darkness we are the fish bouncing right now and somebody asked a question about Hell which I'm sure we're going to get to in a more deliberate way later on but my first thought was hell is real and we're in it right now mm-hm and gee and Jesus is saying follow me boys and girls and I'm gonna lead you out of this mess this is John 3 isn't it hey you're already perishing you're already experiencing condemnation and alienation I didn't come to heap more on you or to beat you with a stick I'm here to rescue you from this experience of alienation from yourself from others from from God from your end from your body from this earth and what we've done which builds all the way to the last verse that the one who does not believe in the son the wrath of God abides on it it's like everything that Jesus just said we just throw out and now we're back to the trap but yes if you're not believing in Jesus you're walking in the darkness you're in the midst of at the very least the hellish existence and the father is passionately opposed to it and you're choosing to abide in his opposition it's so so much different if you have a model of God as a judge who's a great physician for God is a model of a judge in a courtroom you know the forensic model that that so makes a difference to this conversation it's it's like if the wrath of the physician is chemo right and the intent is to heal you and and so it's like oh no so the assumption we have to make is that this is an expression of love and part of that love is the dignifying of being human so that you get to experience consequences for your own choices as part of participation and that's the giving over in Romans yeah think about that in terms of like Matthew 5:25 agree with the accuser on the way to the judge if your view of the judge is a courtroom guy that's out to get you you're not going to agree on the way to the judge you're going to try to avoid the judge but if you're if the judges is one that you believe is the doctor that wants to heal you and as always for you and has already you said that you're right then you're gonna bring every accusation before the Lord and the judge and say okay let's let's have it out and you're not gonna be afraid of those yeah similar to what Baxter said in terms of the fish but if you have a child one of your children who has got a hook in them or something and they don't want you to touch it but you've got to touch it right I mean you've got you you've got to go after that which is actually hurting them even though their senses if you touch it I'm gonna hurt more but it's almost like we mean to me yeah yeah that's and that's how we interpret it and see yes Louis for the little lizard creature there's a grain I mean there's a grain to the universe and and and you know anytime we're opposing the grain opposing love the consequences are just part of what it means to be in a love filled cosmos is when we're marching against or going against the grain we're going to receive consequences I think that sometimes people get confused because they think we're talking about people not having consequences that's know there are consequences but the but but the question it seems like everybody wants to get back to you is we've got to punish someone else beside Jesus you know or someone else has to die besides Christ and God has in Christ reconciled the world you know reconciled the world to himself and he has no one else has to die no one else has to be punished God God has you know all of God has taken upon himself all of that for us so it's no one else there's consequences in this world but no one has to be in this sort of cosmic or ontological sin punished for the sin of the world or die for the sin of the world anymore besides besides Christ I mean it happened in Jesus I want to sir a story we go Thank You Kenneth I want to share a story with you as because we're getting close to time to get out I was talking with a young man that I've known for a long time first met him in a class on John that I was teaching and the last year of his life has been hellish and he's really struggled struggled very with a lot of dark and difficult stuff and he was telling me a couple weeks ago he was having a real fitful knife try fitful night trying to sleep and so he was kind of falling asleep kind of awake just tossing and turning very anxious and all of a sudden he felt like something grabbed his arm and yanked him and he turned and looked and no one was there and then when he turned back and looked he saw himself sleeping on the bed I mean so he's looking at himself on the bed and all of a sudden I know if you ever seen a movie where the camera starts way up like you know 10 miles above the earth and kind of zooms in to a city into a neighborhood to a house into the house down to the table you know well he gets this view that goes right into him into his brain and he doesn't know what's going on but he has this distinct sense that there's a presence for them and he said I said what kind of presence he said I think it was Jesus I go really because yes so I I said what are you doing he said I didn't see anybody he says but I heard this voice he said I'm just replacing some uses in your happy box and I just looked at him when I went oh my gosh that is so incredibly beautiful so simple like you didn't come up with that he goes no I would never have come up with that and from that moment on he has been more at peace than he's been in a year and a half and it's state and I'm just going wow that's so cool I'm just fixing some fuses in your happy box that's my wrath right so anyway thank you guys for this discussion thanks for your time again and all of you watching thanks for sharing it with this and we will see you tomorrow at 1:30 sitter time real time

Channel: opentableconference

Views: 1,822

Rating: 5 out of 5

Keywords:

Id: dLS7lQ5iD_g

Length: 34min 21sec (2061 seconds)

Published: Tue May 12 2020