Open Table Talks | Session 3

hi everybody thanks again for joining us and a couple quick words cuz we've gotten a few questions about Open Table Conference and what it is it's just an event that we put together a couple times a year and we're the people you see here and others come and offer presentations and talk about different topics and we put them on the table for us to have a conversation dialogue to look at things through everything really through who Jesus is and so you know you can look at Open Table Conference calm and you'll find out everything you need to know about that and if you're interested in what we've been doing these last couple days we do this too and a thing we call school theology look at that on the counter on the conference website and they'll give you information about how to be involved with that we spend a week together and we have these kind of conversations all day long so anyway so thanks for joining us first thing we wanted to address today was the situation that we find ourselves in the circumstances that obviously are global with the pandemic and kovin 19 virus and just some thoughts and and things that have been on our hearts and minds maybe through this time and I'm gonna start with Brad and let him kind of kick us off this afternoon with that Brad okay yeah I have three thoughts about that the first one is is to address those who are who are trying to say that this is God's judgment that he he is the cause or the agent of this as as punishment for some kind of sin and and to that we want to say Scoob Allah a man and and that Christ already covered this in the beginning of Luke 13 and also again in John 9 where he says that's not how it works when when you experienced these tragedies whether it's through natural law or human violence we're not doing that anymore saying you know looking for who to blame and who's being punished and why God is angry and and just I think a good place to start with that is to say in any crisis God is not punishing you and he is not abandoning you that's not what's happening period the second point I'd want to make is then all right so God isn't causing this why isn't he preventing it and it's like it's kind of not how the world works that God does not go around violating natural law or human freedom when it creates tragic events or evil in this world he doesn't prevent it just watch the news right but that also doesn't mean he's walked away from the universe he he he has entered in to participate in the human condition and to undergo these kind of tragedies with us he's United himself in the pain of this world all the way to a cross and so instead of thinking in terms of I'm disillusioned because God didn't prevent something look for God to be participating with us United to us in our suffering but and also encouraging us and strengthening us and even mediating his care into the world through us so so where is God in this think participation and and then the third thing I want to say is that in any disruption like this this is a massive disruption I've never seen anything like this in my lifetime probably nothing on a global scale like this since world war two in a disruption like this there is an opportunity to ask ourselves um what are the things that were already wrong before that we weren't willing to leave behind but we're having to leave behind now and so when we come through this do we really want to go back to those things maybe this is an opportunity to say this crisis has caused me to let go things and I'm going to let go of them permanently I hadn't been willing to but now I have to do and in the future I'm willing to I resolve I'm gonna resolve that that there's a permanent letting go happening right now of stuff that was already wrong before on the flip side of that I'm wondering are there things that we've now included in our lives begun to do that we should not stop doing afterwards so a permanent letting go and a permanent embrace of new things as a result of the crisis so an example of that would be um a lea nation and through through radical individualism was already a problem and one that we we weren't necessarily addressing and now it's like because of because of the COBIT 19 crisis we're actually pushing back against alienation now in a way we weren't before right no no I will get to know my neighbors and I'm going to memorize the names of everyone on my cul-de-sac I'm going to say hello to them every time I see them outside I never did before but now I am so I'm pushing back at the at the little alien Nations in my own community that's a very small version of it but I learnt this from you know Gutierrez and then our friend Linda the intercessor in Portland their whole thing was you love the poor name them you know loving it's great to have systems that help the poor but but if you say you love them name them well I couldn't even say that if knit my neighbors like love your neighbor as yourself I didn't even know the kid's name next door what was going on with that that was that's wrong but I didn't care but now I care and so that'll become a permanent part of postcode 19 for me so just to summarize know God is not abandoned us and he's not punishing us - he didn't prevent it but he is participating in our pains throughout it and three some of the things I'm letting go of and embracing as a result of the crisis will become permanent if I have my way and that's the bottom line daddy can we throw it out to the rest of you yeah can we talk about them as he expressed them the first one let's make some thoughts about the first comment that Brad me about is not punishing or abandoning us that's not what this is well if he did it that way none of us would be here yep yep okay anything else yeah about that I think this is a I think that's a place where fear takes root in people right and and the fear comes because they already have shame and guilt so they think they deserve to be punished so obviously this is God doing something and gosh like that's twisted up before we ever even get to God and then we just blame to him throw it on him he becomes our scapegoat so that's my thought that's it interesting I still can't get rid of Oh like for example I mean I'm working on it your conversations with Jesus but I spilled coffee on my laptop and ruined the screen and I broke the wheel on my office chair and now it won't stand up and I've had headache for two weeks because of a wisdom tooth clearly that's three witnesses that God is angry about something what am I doing wrong maybe maybe there maybe I shouldn't have written this or that you know like so what's that about right that's really deeply rooted in our shame I think but we're working it out yeah especially for those of us you know who were raised to assume that these misfortunes and difficulties are being visited upon us by God and all of us to work through that and they encounter with with Jesus I'm gonna I'm gonna say you know it says I'll just do three things - III think for my first thought is isn't it beautiful to see the image of God working in humanity this thing is an enemy of God excuse me yeah of God it's also an enemy of humanity this invisible thing and you know God didn't send it and God is an opposition to anything that is is not from him you know this doesn't participate in love and this doesn't because it's destroying the image of God in human flesh that's so important to just as a baseline to understand what's happening and then but to see whole societies who we have not put our elders first we have not put the vulnerable first to choose voluntarily at great sacrifice to put the elderly first and to put the vulnerable first this is we need to be rejoicing in the amount of human goodness created goodness that is on display and this even though there are people who you know who care more about their pocketbook than one you know this thing or the thing to get going again and so forth I want to focus on look at this beauty that's wonderful second in a culture in many societies did don't take Sabbath and we haven't appreciated the the fact that God rests after creating the world and that God an issue in human flesh rests Jesus we you know think you have to be productive 24/7 we think we have to be scheduled 24/7 we think we have to prove our existence we have to and in all of these motivations that we have and we don't keep Sabbath and now this circumstance which doesn't come from God but in which God is providing an opportunity is what Brad was saying circumstances come from God but there's an opportunity now to learn to rest to learn to be still to learn that it's okay to be productive 24/7 to learn that how about if we just closed these 24/7 why do we need 24/7 stores with lights on all the time I mean it's just that one thing if we stopped doing that we we went you know when we when this thing is over which it will be over when this thing is over if we should emerge from it not having to go to the store at 3 o'clock in the morning or two o'clock in the morning you know at 10 o'clock at night or whatever and maybe it would be a good idea on Sundays just to say everything's closed think about the impact on the earth that that would have if we just didn't use all that energy and we were in better and more sustainable relationship with the planet just in that one way third this this thing which is a darkness is coming it's supposed to be if these experts are right and god god I hope they aren't right and I'm always a little skeptical with with expertise but if we're headed toward two weeks of difficulty a peck sing at Passover a peck sing at Good Friday and Holy Saturday that's what they're telling us is when we're really gonna start feeling pain no one is gonna forget Holi 2020 I welcome the opportunity because we always go from Palm Sunday and the triumph of pomp Sunday to the glory of Easter and very few of us really enter contemplative ly into Good Friday or into Holy Saturday and we are quite literally entering into weather liturgically or not we are going to be corporately entering into a Good Friday and early Saturday if these experts are right and we can also do that of course as worshiping communities but it's really gonna be on top of all of us and something that we're going through together and I'm trying to prepare my people for the the instance there's an cessation of grief at this point but there if 240,000 people died there's gonna be some grief to go around and so yeah I could see some more about all that but I've been talking too long yeah you're on fire that could so good so part of it is that it has stopped us long enough to realize what we've been taking for granted I think that's one of the gifts of this whole time and you know all of a sudden two funny things that happen one everybody was bad-mouthing technology which is now kind of the way that we connect and so many respects and has turned out to be really a gift and then on the other side we so miss the contact and the relationships that I don't think we're going to easily go back to taking them for granted the way that we did and I think that's a gift somebody asked on the on the ass Shelly did and she said what do you say about you know the statement while God is in control right that is that has made so often and she would you know here's a hard thing like kovin 19 so how would how would you respond when somebody says well you know God is in God is in control and and my problem with that statement is it sounds like fatalistic determinism not relationship so anybody else have a have a rest God doesn't do control but he does care it's different to say God is in charge than God is in control yeah and you know it is a redeeming genius yeah who does not control but is involved in everything to turn it for good yeah I figured back on the first part of the conversation just to make two points yeah not three first is to quote Paul Young one of the things that I've learned most from you I've learned a lot but one of the things I'm learning is stay inside the grace of one day don't teach your trip and protect you and so I've combined that with one of my little theological statements that the recognition of the sacred presence not absence the recognition of the sacred presence of the father son is in every person moment and event is the beginning of wisdom or the beginning of the light of life so put those two together stay inside the grace of one day don't future trip and while you integration one day focus on seeing the presence of the Father Son and spirit everywhere around you because this this cosmos is a vast burning bush to quote Callisto swear full alive with the glory of the Father Son and spirit so it helps me when I encountered that especially when I see them in places I don't expect and in acts of kindness or in people's smiles or just in things that happen okay that jerks me out of my figure and here we have an opportunity to respond to what we're encountering it's awesome like the burning the burning bush has and the staying inside the grace of the day learning how to respond to the real world that is actually right in front of you rather than trying to figure out if you've got grace for imaginations that don't exist yeah it's such a huge thing for me and so thank you for that too we all do it all you talked about the gifts of this I one of the gifts I see of this time is basically what I was talking about yesterday is that it puts us in touch with our frailty in our weakness and our common humanity and and that we're all connected and that this is no respecter of persons it kind of levels the playing field just like the presence of God does and and it also puts us in touch with when we put our power together so it's both our weakness and our power when we use it together we can accomplish great things we really need everyone to get your book Katie I mean it's so good on this stuff what's it called again paradox I mean I've just not seen anything like it and to be able to embrace the shadow side even of creation in this sense you know this is a mutation yeah and yet to see silver linings is not is redemptive it's not it's it's and and I feel like your book would help so paradox lost by Katie scourge I get the book we just had someone return it to us yesterday who just who loved it why are you returning it that's a keeper so what Katie said go ahead Katie oh go ahead I love what Katie said it's really important this idea that that we're all in this together the the one human God there's only one human nature and that we all share and it's the one nature that Jesus the Son of God and so this thing wipes out borders nationality sex rich poor race tribal enemy it's an enemy of all of us and and and that's you that's uniting to recognize that we're together in this Katie you were gonna say something thanks I'm just gonna say Baxter talked about God's redeeming genius I I think of God's redeeming the great composter the compost everything all the school to love is a gardener is a gardener that's my picture yet it just said it takes a lot of crap to make good compost and I'm you need good compost to grow things and God's a great composter um a couple things sue it kind of brings us in my mind full circle to where we began on Monday if if people look at this and because I've read and we all heard people talking about this crisis as an act of God God's in control he's the one doing this or he's punishing it brings us back to what is it in the nature of God that would require him to have to punish us in this way and we've already said nothing this this means if that's true of God then there's darkness in God and he's like there is no darkness and so we have to rethink even the way we read some of particularly the Old Testament stories that sound to us like God is doing this I think that's where people get tripped up particularly in the religious dimension of this conversation I want to segue a little bit because of time to weave we've gotten several and actually I think it fits particularly with what Baxter what's a sane and this is the subject of of Union and the idea of theosis and Backstrom I'm going to pitch this to you in a second to maybe explain that word to people and because I hear often and it's true that we are connected because we all bear the image of God the image of God is Jesus it's the Incarnation that connects us it's not an incarnation isn't an invitation to be connected it is the connection yeah forever last right it's not going anywhere and so the invitation is to participate in the connection through times of goodness or times of crisis and that to me is part of the beauty of Union so Baxter can I throw to you the idea of theosis and before you start I'm gonna read a a sentence by TF Torrance just a sentence so the Greek fun the Greek fathers used to speak of that experience as theosis which does not mean divinization as is so often supposed but refers to the utterly staggering act of God in which he gives himself to us and adopts us into the communion of his divine life and love through Jesus Christ and in this one spirit okay you ready you had it I want to make a couple of quick comments first we've got to also when we talk about the Incarnation in Jesus has been the the New Covenant or the relationship or the point of Union that existed in creation he already had a union with us so he's coming to establish that Union in the Incarnation with us inside our dilution so that we can begin to see what's real then you shift over to talk about theosis and what Torrance is saying is the better way to look at it it does not mean that I become God it means I participate in the divine life and already there's been a resurgence in the last ten years or so and at least people talking about Union and there's several mistakes that you can avoid right off the top one is I'm not passive I don't become Jesus just like Jesus is not the father and the father is not the Holy Spirit but they are one they have a relationship in which personhood is guarded and they they know how to have oneness without loss of personhood or without enmeshment so you hear people talking about Union but basically it's like the old illustration of that you know we are a glove and God is the hand it's much more personal than that's much more real than that we are participants in the Trinitarian life of God IMAX mind-boggling they think that that has been the dream of the triune God from all eternity and they will never turn their backs on that dream forever and ever and ever however long this process may take that union does not mean absorption it's just like this like in a proper marriage you don't have one who is dominant and the other is subservient it's a it's a relationship but no one disappears and so part of the meaning of fairy Croesus is that it's that God makes room the Father Son spirit make room for one another they defer they make room and so they've made room for us inside their life so I'm not an extension of God I'm a participant that's a very important distinction on the one hand we're battling or what I would call be ism which is rampant in the Latin West especially in evangelical circles of God's Way up there somewhere we're separated all of this is here he may have created it but it doesn't belong to him and and so there's that disconnect and so we see Jesus got to find our way to Jesus so we can be back in Union the other one is to obliterate any notion of our distinct personhood where we basically become drops of water in an ocean with no self-consciousness no personal awareness so on either one of those fronts the dream of the Father Son and spirit that we would be genuine participants in the Trinity in life is lost one through separation the other through absorption it's only the Trinitarian vision that helps us walk right through the middle of this without falling into either one of those traps that's beautiful I'll stop there that's beautiful ever thought about that man this comes this comes back to the the truth of our being and the way of our being so what Torrance is describing there is as theosis really is the truth of our being in Jesus Christ it was a work of the Incarnation that's a done deal and it's forever theosis also extends to the way of our being and that's where we do use words like deification or demonize ation but all that saying is second Corinthians 3:18 that we are being as we behold to Christ as we as we behold the crucified and risen one he is transfiguring us from glory to glory into the image of Jesus Christ that's and and so that's a process that carries on into eternity that's the truth of our being in the Incarnation becoming the way of our being through through this glory to glory Transfiguration that that happens by beholding the Lord and and so what what and I say all that just so that it isn't this abstract imputed thing out there in the in the you know whether in distant glory in a heavenly realm or 2,000 years ago in Christ it there's something going on here that has that that is changing us in fact you know into the image of Christ all the like and the likeness II who believe the likeness yeah yeah so beholding is not an abstract concept at all it's like right look at Jesus look at Jesus then you'll know what your true ontology is yeah so so you know if as you're looking at Jesus you're being told the truth about who you are and then the way of your being will begin to flow out of that beholding yeah yeah there is no such thing as a human being alone there's only human beings who are included in the Trinitarian life of God if you can't even talk about human nature properly without talking about divine nature at the same time so in coffee shop was you know young people are anybody talking a lot of times we are orientation is I've got I've got to bring relationship the relationship of God to these people they don't have relationship with them that's an assumption that we bring this is not right he God has already related himself to every human being as their creator and God has already related himself through the son as their human the son were the human brother of Jesus I mean whether we every human being is the human brother you know he's our human brother for every man and woman on the planet whether we acknowledge it whether we are running from it whether we're agnostic toward it or whatever is already related himself to us and I've really worked yeah he's related to us about the meeting car car rejection so we're you know we're not we're not we're not trying to relate people to God God has already acted to relate himself to to everyone we want them to come to an awareness of this thing what God has done the last conversation that I had with this is kind of going off something that John was saying or Katie it was that Robert Jensen Chris Greene and I were talking to him he said God invites us into his sovereign rule of creation through prayer they didn't use me it was backs are talking about participation I really do believe that God through prayer and bites us into his sovereign rule of all things otherwise the Scriptures don't make any sense and our instruction to pray and to take our you know concerns to God and don't make any sense either there's been obviously prayer changes that's not God but God's changeless has changed us but at the same time he does welcome us by participation into his care of creation in prayer that's its sovereign care right it's not a sovereign coercion not not right yeah by inviting participation yeah right this is this is where the enigma of a God who submits by nature is overwhelming the God who has a high view of humanity submits to it that's the cross yeah yeah and and our wrath poured out before I forget John folks want to know where they can see this or watch it later live if it's possible because it's reported at Open Table Conference Facebook page and then later even later probably next week they'll be up on YouTube you can watch the recording Billy Tate guy no no I've got some flat belly tech guys helping you this the first time someone is asking about trying to find this if you know we've all been raptured and then then they select kind of happen cuz Baxter was on the conversation yeah what happened to Katie was she raptured what anyway maybe she was okay Katie says no worries all right her laptop froze up okay we're in we're in purgatory threat with the Caliban here's something I think it was maybe Paul earlier and and and and Baxter talking about how in the life of the Trinity that there's this self giving and a deferring and that's that's the word we have in Greek as kenosis but self-emptying self giving and so it's feels this bike enosis that is we participate in the nature of God by self giving love and it's and so it's not asserting you know asserting ourselves as these heavenly heavenly being so with bravado it's it's like in the foot washing in the caregiving in the in the letting go and of privilege and in the water servanthood that's it so servanthood is the M is the very image of taking on the wrist Rinda renewal of our likeness to the that's what me why the greatest is the least because that's the direction that theosis takes you is it your submission and self serve I mean other serving love yeah yeah I loved that old song by Keith green I don't know if I'm meeting people love Keith green I love Keith Green is make my life a prayer to you you know make my entire what I am in my thoughts my actions and everything there's a prayer it's not just sitting down you know having a conversation with God you can make that's what I think that's what the apostle means by create praying pray without ceasing is is is that everything you know asking God for participation in them so much so that everything is a participant you know everything is a prayer and this would be I think also what it means for des is to be occurring I don't know what you you think actually I'd be here a I can i interject something here I think that it's really important to understand or just to wrestle with this idea of the direction of theosis of what it means if we're becoming being transfigured to be like them that this points downward so to speak it points to bending our knees and washing people's feet because if I understand this it frees me to live life without an agenda it frees me to see other people as the same as me as equals and instead of emphasizing our differences or trying to create categories for each other we easily fall into of course we're all one of course we're all included because this is this is the truth of our being in the Father Son and spirit so I think it's really really crucial for us to help encourage people and to work with people even in our own lives as we wrestle through what does this mean and what does it look like yeah that's all it's good yeah made me think of recognize no one according to the flesh supported through our language systems but recognized them according to their union and Jesus's union with the human race and that they are inclusion it's another way of talking about the recognition of the sacred presence yep be aware of our agenda oh yeah because there's there's those who take that verse I know know no longer regard Christ according to the flesh and they think that means we don't think about as humanity anymore there's like no we don't regard his death on a cross through the worldly lens that says this is a defeat and a humiliation we look at it's true to the divine lens that recognizes the victory in it and just again the embrace of how Christ embraced our humanity and then lifts all humanity up with him through Union it's glorious I'm trying to remember who said it but someone called it heavens assault on darkness there's a verse that says that this is not a God who can be served by human hands as if this God needed anything and so the movement of theosis is to be filled up with all the fullness of God because in that direction like God who needs nothing he is completely free to wash the feet he is completely free to serve right and yet because he has need of nothing so in in the direction of theosis we we in the emptying of someone said of our false self and all of our lives and all of that we become filled with all the fullness not that it wasn't ontological ii true but now in the way of our being and as that happens then we are absolutely free to serve the one who is in front of us because I don't need anything Paul isn't that what perfect love is absolutely you know that's that's it so I saw some beautiful alright guys it's it's time thanks for another afternoon that was a great discussion enjoyed it appreciated it Katie we're sorry you had to drop out somebody said oh you mean rapture is only for women man wants to die I guess the women get a pass on all right well thank you tomorrow okay yep bye-bye bye-bye

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Length: 37min 19sec (2239 seconds)

Published: Wed May 06 2020