Narcissism in Siblings | The Signs

[Music] something curious to me dr romney is how two children can be raised in the same family and one can grow into a narcissist and the other one can not have that same path why and how is that happening you know we've talked about this repeatedly on other med circle series is like how and why do people become narcissistic you think if it's all developmental two people from the same family should end up in the same place things like birth order you know the the what the children mean to the parents boys may be treated differently by girls we know there's some sort of genetic elements to temperament some kids are more tightly wound impulsive hypersensitive the things that could potentially be more predictive of narcissism were they were something going on in a parent's life during one child's childhood and not another so there's a lot of things that could be at play but it happens all the time and kyle it's actually one of the more heartbreaking narcissistic relationships people deal with because when you were very small you this was your playmate you know i always say that your sibling is sometimes your only shared historian there's pictures of you in the bath together like they were your first playmate in some cases and so the idea that you will be estranged from them or not have that relationship a lot of people become angry they have to grieve it like this isn't fair i want a cool sibling relationship and so it can actually be a really devastating recognition but if you talk it's interesting when i've talked to people with narcissistic siblings in almost every case especially those who are five years or in age difference or closer when there's big age gaps it can make it a little harder because it's harder to sort of track that sibling because they're already doing such different things than you but five years or less they'll say you know what this kind of narcissistic coldness entitlement lack of empathy that was seen in their sibling even when they were younger how they played how they shared how they talked how they fought how they tried to compete for their parents many of them say you know i it i hate to admit it and i can understand why they wouldn't over pathologize in in childhood they're like i want this person to be my friend it's always been fraught you know so these patterns actually the siblings have more eyes on it than anybody else but in adulthood this is a relationship that can get downright ugly and i don't think people are prepared for that because your sibling is someone with whom for example things like as your parents get older there's just issues like trusts estates wills who gets more money mom and dad paid for you to go to law school i expect them to spend this much money on a down payment for a house or on my wedding right that narcissistic sibling often keeps score they gave you that they should give me this and so there's they'll try to outdo you well you think you're taking mom and dad on that vacation i'm going to do this i'm going to buy them a house so it's a lot of trying to outplay the other sibling but it can actually get really dark as the parents get older where there's a lot of sort of fooling around about family finances the narcissistic sibling feeling much more entitled to to a bigger proportion of the trust or will or even taking more money from the parent while they're still living but often not being that interested in helping to take care of that parent should they become old or infirm so it feels very unjust it feels very imbalanced it feels really awful quite frankly and they may be the parents of cousins to your children and you'll feel like i can't deal with my sibling and so it's really it can get complicated especially in the case where you're in one of those rare families where neither of the parents are super narcissist or if they are it's manageable but it's the sibling that's super narcissistic and now the reason you're struggling going to family events is because you're trying to avoid the sibling and many times the parents will enable the narcissistic sibling oh come now it's nothing be nice to your brother or sister like you're still sick and that can be really challenging and sometimes siblings will have to break away from the entire family system because of a narcissistic sibling let's talk about that when you say break away they mean they cut off contact they kind of caught me they don't text me i'm thinking i'm not gonna go to your nephew's baseball game anymore we're out and that sibling who says i can't deal with this narcissistic nonsense anymore i'm not gonna be an enabler anymore they cut off they may lose access to their own parents because the parents will still be back in the narcissistic sibling you know because they're saying well you're you're not they don't say your narcissistic living when your brother or sister stuck around why do you have to go off you're being too sensitive and the entire family will band together and gaslight the person who says enough is enough i'm not putting up with this anymore how can it get that bad where you are willing to lose your entire family over somebody's personality disorder you have no idea it's all the stuff we talk about with narcissism if you think about a narcissistic husband or wife or boyfriend or girlfriend the things they do the gaslighting the manipulation the cruelty the invalidation the dehumanization sibling does the same thing maybe not the infidelity part but everything else it feels awful of course it feels awful from a sibling and narcissistic siblings often triangulate in the family system they put it as make it two against one they band with one or both parents and they'll even sort of gang up that dynamic you had in childhood of being scapegoated may literally play out all the way into adulthood and in many of these cases that i've worked with or seen the siblings only survival came from distancing themselves they some of them haven't talked to their parents in 15 years and it's largely because they're trying to keep distance from the narcissistic sibling who still has almost brainwashed the parents and has often taken all the money and everything i mean it gets really really dark okay so we know in in past sessions of this series and other series you've done for med circle how to interact with a narcissist even if it is your sibling at events or whatnot is there anything the parents in this scenario could do to talk to that narcissistic sibling that could ease the waters a bit when if other family members get involved it where it gets tricky is any time you try to intervene with a narcissist they're going to defend they're going to deflect they're going to rationalize they're going to use all the usual narcissistic tricks so the parents may not have any more power in that as it were than anybody else would what a parent should do is be able to hear with open ears open mind open heart the experiences that the sibling is experiencing who is being harmed by the narcissistic sibling right don't invalidate their experience don't gaslight them by saying this isn't really happening you're being too sensitive hear them out and then work with your child to figure out how can you at least maintain a healthy relationship with your child and if you don't want to give up on your narcissistic child i get that but don't try to force something that's uncomfortable and try to set those boundaries and if anything that parent when they talk to that narcissistic sibling instead of saying hey your narcissistic brother maybe point out the pattern and say your sister felt hurt beca when you had said da da da da 99 times out of a hundred that narcissistic sibling's gonna again defend rationalize so it tends to be a waste of air and honestly of social capital in a way but i think that that's the only way it can happen but i think a narcissistic parent really has to be cautioned don't tell your child you guys can go figure this out as though they're six your child would not have gotten here if they hadn't been so hurt by this sibling listen to them if your sibling has children and you worry that this narcissistic sibling of yours is raising narcissistic children is there anything they can do i think that you know when we talk about radical acceptance in this world of narcissism sometimes it's about knowing when you need to step away and realize you can't intervene on what's a really really sad situation if you occasionally have contact with those kids your nieces nephews you can certainly model healthy behavior empathy reciprocity but i got to be honest with you if you're only seeing these nieces and nephews a few times a year and they're in there with their parents narcissism the rest of the time this train is going to run into the wall and you can't stop it and that's that's where in families you see a lot of fallout how do you talk to your own children about an uncle or aunt that is narcissistic or if you have made the decision to leave and they're not going to see uncle tony anymore what do what do you tell them let the child ask about it you know you don't have to make law i'm just making an announcement everyone uncle tony's out all right you know it doesn't have to be this big histrionic grandiose show if the kids say how come we're not seeing uncle tony at thanksgiving you want to give them an age-appropriate explanation and one that does not denigrate or insult uncle tony because that's not healthy behavior to model for your children but to really say you know what i think that at this time uncle tony has you know other people and other ways to spend his time and you know right now that they're a little busy this year and so we may not be able to get together if they're people they were accustomed to seeing on a regular basis and they really notice it much more quickly and maybe even seen you having arguments say you know what just like you know how you and your sister sometimes argue sometimes grown-ups argue like that too and we're just trying to figure it out so please know uncle tony does love you you know and you kind of have to give him kind of an artificial party line because sometimes kids will wonder did i do something am i responsible for this and try and let it go does that mean i'm not going to see my cousins anymore it does mean you may not see them for a little while honey because they're busy with some other stuff right now i mean don't never lie to your kid that's got to be heartbreaking though to lose a best friend who was a cousin nine year old it definitely happens but here's the thing if you're going to put that line in the sand don't keep going back and forth if you're gonna really lower the guillotine like that then you're done but to say well now we're not mad at uncle tony and your cousins again that's not going to fly yeah make you make a decision and understand when you make those bigger ticket decisions there's ramifications sadly many times when narcissistic adults who have children get into conflicts with people they'll use their children as pawns and so they'll say okay if that's how it's going to be then you don't get to see your nieces and nephews anymore and it's for that reason alone a lot of people have to use the usual techniques the expectations management and all of that they're not engaging so they can keep a superficial relationship with that person so they can see the more precious relationships nieces nephews grandchildren that kind of thing right all right well in our next session we'll talk about the managing tactics you can use when your child is a narcissist thanks for watching check out the links below for more information on how to access this full series and subscribe to our youtube channel to watch new mental health videos every week did you like what you heard in this video if you want to ask a med circle doctor a question directly you can learn how by visiting the links in the description below [Music]

Channel: MedCircle

Views: 1,086,132

Keywords: narcissism, narcissistic personality disorder, narcissist, psychology, sibling, siblings, family, mental health, relationships, personality disorder, narcissistic abuse, kyle kittleson, dr. ramani, narcissistic, npd, medcircle, psychologist, discussion, ramani durvasula, dr ramani, ted talk, how to spot a narcissist, anger, abuse, personality, narcissistic mother, narcissistic relationship, narcissists, gaslighting, interview, video, expert, educational videos, depression, covert narcissist

Id: kHeM0jJiB3U

Length: 11min 42sec (702 seconds)

Published: Mon Jan 13 2020

Reddit Comments

[u/Easy-Concentrate2636]

Thank you for this. It’s hard to find a lot of information on siblings and this really made me feel validated.

[u/kindcrow]

Someone in the comments summed it up:

1. Signs show up early in childhood
   
2. Sense of entitlement
   
3. Trying to outdo or outplay siblings
   
4. Imbalance when it comes to caring for parents in old age
   
5. Parents enable them as adults
   
6. Teaming up with other siblings to gaslight
   
7. They defend, deflect, and rationalize their behavior
   
8. You are forced to break away from the entire family