- So attachment theory is
all about how we establish that relationship with
our primary caregivers and whether or not that
establishment is healthy or not. And how that influences how
you function as a child, both mentally and physically, and again, pervades into
your adulthood in career, in love, in friendships and
every other aspect of your life. (soft monotonous music) - Dr. Judy let's define secure attachment. - Okay. So a securely attached child in the original Mary Ainsworth
study is a child who, when they separate from the parent, they do show some distress. They're and a little bit stressed out, but they're still able to
kind of sooth themselves to some degree. And then once the parent comes back, they're so excited to see the parent, they give the parent a big hug. And then after that reunification, they go back to playing on their own and then seem relatively happy. And as adults, they tend to be more comfortable
in relationships overall. They're able to communicate their needs. They're able to be independent,
but at the same time, also get close to people
without much problems. And just in general, people say that they're
probably the best type of person to have any kind of relationship with. - When the child is having their
mother leave and reuniting, what age range is that? - In the Mary Ainsworth study, it was usually between
seven to eight months to about two years. And that's because in attachment theory, we believe that at about seven months, the infant starts to become
very discriminately attached to one or two primary
caregivers in their life. And so they were really
testing the strength of that specific bond, as opposed to when a baby
is younger than that, it's a little bit more indiscriminate. Meaning you might see a
lot of people and you know, you kind of hang out with
everybody. It's not a big deal. You don't have as much
of that close knit bond with a couple of people in
your life until a little later. - What are some other
signs that a parent might be facilitating a secure
attachment style into their child? - Well I think in general, it's really about a parent
who can be available for the child's emotional
and physical needs. As mammals and as human beings, we can't take care of
ourselves at that age. And so it's really
important that we feel like we have a secure base to return to. So, you know, when you are a very good parent and establishing secure
attachment in your babies, it's really about kind of being around, but still letting them explore. But then when they want
to come back to you for nurturing or hug, you're around. If they're hungry, they can come to you and you're going to give
them food, you know. So it's really about being
available to your child, but not necessarily over-burdening them with a ton of affection
and not letting them go, 'cause that actually doesn't develop strong
resilience skills in your child. So it's more about kind of being around when your child needs you, but
also not being overbearing. So, feeling good about those moments where your child is playing independently and not thinking, oh,
I should be over there and being a good mom right now. You might be being a good mom by letting them go do that alone. - Exactly. And it's really about having
a combination of the two. So sometimes you're
playing with your child, sometimes you're not, but you're in the same room
or you're in the next room and you're available to your
child when they need you. - Yes. Can anyone really have a
secure attachment style? Like I don't, I think, I'll find out later that
my personality dictates that I did not have a secure
attachment style growing up. But I think I had a great childhood. - Yeah, yeah I agree. And I think that, you know, in general, it's this sort of idealized, idealized type of parenting almost. You know, I think in
the Western hemisphere, we also talk about what we call authoritative
parenting, right. So authoritarian would
be a super bossy parent. A permissive parent is
like one that has no rules. And then the authoritative
parent is somebody who somehow spans the middle. They kind of, you know, dictate
things when they need to, but also allow you to conversate with them and be flexible with negotiations. But that's not a parenting style that is embraced by all of the world. In certain parts of the world, the parent is the power
structure in the family and you should just do what they say. And those kids come out fine also, right. So I think that's kind of
what you're talking about is like certain families
or certain cultures. I'm not just talking about ethnic groups, I'm talking about all
kinds of cultural groups. Maybe the idea of a secure mother or secure attachment mother
isn't really the true ideal. Maybe you can develop very well, even though maybe your attachment is more on the avoidance side, right. And so I think that there's
some arguments about that and there's certainly criticisms
about the original ideas of attachment and what
that secure attachment really even means. And so I think it's a really good point. And I think that while, while it may be something
that isn't necessarily the gold standard, certain aspects of what we
call a secure person is good. You know, this idea of
being able to be flexible. Like you can be independent on your own, but you're also not overly codependent, but you also can be close to people without feeling discomfort. Those are, I think, really
good things for everybody to strive for. - Of course. How does a parent foster more of that secure attachment
within their child, especially when the child is
showing really intense anxiety and almost a temper tantrum
when that parent leaves? - Yeah. And this is a good question
because there is an interaction between the parents and the
child's temperament, right. So temperament is something
that we think of as a innate. You know, certain children,
they're just more smiley. They just make more eye contact
with people around them. Other children are not,
they're more fussy. And these things relate to temperament. It's sort of thought to be
something that's kind of in-born. And so I think in general,
parents sometimes foster, whatever they see in front of them. So if there's a child whose temperament is more clingy and anxious, perhaps the mother will
also reflect more anxiety. Like, oh my gosh, are they
going to be okay on their own? Maybe I shouldn't go out on
date night with my husband because what if my child needs me. But actually in some ways that reinforces the anxiety in your child, right. Because children are
actually quite intuitive and they can sense emotions
in their caregivers, right. And so I think it's interesting because when you see that dynamic, you can kind of see that almost it's like a chicken and an egg
syndrome after a while. So what's really happening here. And so I think as parents, you have to monitor your own feelings, irrespective of your child's
temperament in some ways. It's sort of like, okay, the child is acting very anxious, that brings up a lot of anxiety in me. So in some ways you have to
modulate your own emotions and appear more calm, so that the child can
really learn from that and say, oh, maybe there's
nothing to be anxious about. I need to start to learn how
to self-sooth those feelings. And so I think some of it is
parents being really in tune to that and still maintaining structure, despite your child's temperament. - What are some memories that
people would have that would indicate that they grew up with parents who really fostered that
secure attachment style? - I think when children
have memories where maybe they broke an arm and
their parents took them to the hospital right away and. - Who, but what parents are waiting? - You know, you would be surprised. - Really? - And I think maybe that is
something that borders on trauma for some people, when
they recall, for example, them having a fever and
their parents are like, well, let me finish up this one meeting, and then we'll go to the hospital. Even those things that
don't seem that harmful. Like a parents just
like, well, it's a fever, they can wait 30 minutes. Let
me just finish my meeting. Children remember that forever. And they remember you as
somebody who didn't meet their needs when they needed you. Or, you know, parents who, for example, foster memories in children where, you know, hey walk them to school. And then the child was a
little bit afraid of the door. Like I don't want to leave. And the parents are like, you know what, we'll be right here. We'll wait out here for about 20 minutes. And you go in and we'll see how you do. And then like, if you don't
come back in 20 minutes then we'll leave. Just this idea of I'm still here, but I still want you to develop
yourself as an individual. And I think that sometimes children will reflect those types of experiences. My parents walked me to school, but then like they left me there, and then they came and
checked on me during lunch, and then they left again. You know, so this idea of checking in with your child to make sure
that you're available for them when they really need you. - So how does a parent
walk that line then, between creating secure attachment and checking in with their child and not going over to
now I'm helicoptering and I'm overbearing and I'm
actually creating more bad? - I think so much of it is about how the parent exhibits
their own emotions. So, you know, again, and like,
are you okay, are you okay? And they're starting to act very anxious. That's a different message
for the child than just, hey, I just popped by during my lunch break to see how you're doing at lunch. And then everything seems fine,
so I'm going back to work. You know, that very casual check-in that seems very emotionally stable. I think is really helpful for kids. - Yeah. Kids really do pick up on that. - [Jody] Don't they? It's crazy. - My nephew fell a couple of weeks ago when I was visiting him. He fell and he, like man he hit his chin right on the ground. And my react, my initial
instinct was to go, oh man ouch. But I knew if I did that,
he would start crying. So when he fell, I made
that face. He didn't see it. And I go, nice job. All right, now, can you stand up? And he stands up. And I go, cool, now bring me that ball or whatever we were doing. And he totally forgot about it. - He's fine. - But if I would have
made that reaction big, he would have reacted big. - Totally.
- Yeah. - Yeah. - What are some typical
behaviors of someone with this attachment style
once they're an adult? - Okay. So in romantic relationships, they tend to be able to
judge each relationship for that relationship alone, instead of having like a
one-style pattern for coping. So, you know, they can deal with people's
idiosyncrasies in flexible ways. They seem to be more comfortable
with close, closeness in relationships, but also
they can be independent too. If you leave them alone or
if you don't see each other for a few days, they're fine also. They're not overly distressed
when they're by themselves. And even if they've had bad relationships, they're still able to gather themselves up and move on to the next one
after a period of grief. As opposed to completely
becoming this person who, you know, says, well, all men are bad, I might as well not have relationships. You know, things that are very dismissive and black and white. Those are more characteristic
of insecure attachment style. Somebody who's secure, you know, when they have disappointments, they learn their lessons and they move on. And even in their careers,
they tend to be that way too. So they tend to be able to work in jobs that are independent, but also they can work
in teams and they don't, they don't get too distressed
by being in a team. You know, the closeness of a team, the fact that you have
to be together a lot. And in friendships as well. They tend to be good friends, meaning that they are
communicative with their friends. They're not passive aggressive
in their communication. If they're upset about something, they can be assertive about it. I mean, this is why it's so
funny because I feel like secure attachment is like idealist-- - Sounds wonderful.
- Thing, right. It's like how many people are
doing that on every given day? I think most people probably
falter here and there. But I think the general template of a securely attached
person is, you know what, they can deal with disappointments. They'll still be sad,
they'll still have problems. But they're not going to have
this huge reaction towards it that seems like an overreaction or a black and white
coloring of some sort, where you kind of just
judge something immediately and you don't move forward
and you feel held back maybe by some of your past experiences. - Yeah. I'm going through the
roster of everyone I know, and I think there's only one person that kind of follows that, that I know. The rest of us we struggle. We don't show up every
time and nail it perfectly. - Totally. - How does a secure attachment
style impact friendships? - Well, I think a secure attachment style impacts friendships in the way that a good friend is somebody
who is available to you when you need them and you have that reciprocal relationship. And so that's really what a
securely attached person is like in a friendship. They're very reciprocal. Like they're happy to give, but they also take some times, you know. And there are certain enough
to ask for what they need. Sometimes people who, you
know, insecure attached, they might actually be extremely
clingy in a friendship, or maybe they're even very
dismissive in a friendship. Where when somebody has
a more emotional need, they kind of run away from that friend. A securely attached friend
doesn't run away from emotions, but they're also not overly emotional. So they don't get into it with
you so deeply in the trenches where it feels like your
identities are starting to fuse. I mean, they still have their own identity and they maintain that identity while still being able to support you. - Yes. Excellent. Any final words on
secure attachment style? - Yeah. I think in many ways when we talk about secure attachment, it kind of sounds that we're
talking about this ideal. And I really think that
securely attached individuals will still have problems. So it's not so much that they
don't ever have problems, but it's just that they
show up to their problems in an authentic way. And they have a very
flexible way of utilizing their coping strategies. In general, securely attached people are just more resilient. They're more resilient mental health wise, and they're more resilient physically. So we find that people who
have secure attachment, they have less chronic illnesses, and when they do, they have
less severe chronic illnesses. And in terms of their mental health, they tend to be able to cope better whenever they have depression or anxiety. And they are also at less risk for more severe mental health conditions. So it is a great thing when you are somebody who
is truly securely attached. - All right, well let me ask you this, before we move into our next session then. Can somebody who was raised with something other than secure attachment
grow up and change into, and start behaving as
though they were raised with a secure, securely attachment family? - I think you can develop a
different type of attachment as you get older. So that's why it's so important to know, because when you are aware
of your attachment issue, if you know that it's a difficulty. Then when you work on it, you can actually start to gear yourself more authentically towards a
securely attachment person. And I actually have seen so many people start with insecure attachment and over their lives
develop more resilience and become more securely attached and be able to express
that 99% of the time. (soft monotonous music) - Dr. Judy, what is a dismissive
avoidant attachment style? - So the dismissive
avoidant attachment style in the Mary Ainsworth study, they showed very little distressed when their primary caregiver left, kind of just kept playing by themselves. And then when the primary
caregiver returned, they kind of acknowledged them, but they kind of also
didn't run to them, really. They just sort of kept
doing their own thing. And oftentimes they might
even be sort of indiscriminate in terms of their affection
towards their primary caregiver versus maybe the stranger
that was in the room during this experiment. And as adults dismissive avoidant types tend to be highly independent. They're highly industrial, meaning that sometimes they're workaholics and they don't love intense emotion. When somebody shows a
lot of intense emotion, whether it's a partner or a friend, they tend to kind of go
away from that a little bit. They kind of make an excuse
to not get too involved. And generally they are really comfortable being by themselves and they tend to invest less
in their emotional life, and also in deeper attachments to people than the average person. - You've just explained me. That was a biography of myself. - You're like, and that's Kyle. - So does that mean my parents had this, likely, had this same attachment? - Well, it's interesting
because as the parents, what they communicate oftentimes, when they raise a more
dismissive avoidant child, is that you probably shouldn't express your negative emotions. That maybe that's a sign of weakness in some way that you
really shouldn't do it because people might
take advantage of you, if you express too many
of your negative emotions. So they weren't rewarding their children for expressing emotions,
especially negative ones. That could be a possibility. When a parent is more authoritarian with more boundaries in between, the parent versus a child, especially in terms of their
emotional communication that could lead to a more
dismissive avoidant attachment. Or parents who are highly
industrial themselves, parents who were workaholics, they instilled that type
of a value in their child. So their child also then
prioritizes things like work and productivity over relationships. So it's not all bad. - [Kyle] Yes.
- Yeah. - Can someone with dismissive
avoided attachment do really well with somebody else who
has the same attachment? - Yeah, I think so. And they tend to do really well with securely attached people too. But you know what a dismissive
avoidance nightmare is, the anxious preoccupied person. - Oh, I bet. - Right. So as we just talked about with the anxious preoccupied individuals, they're so much more needy
with their asks of nurturance and they really need to
be with you more often than probably the
dismissive avoidant person wants to be with. And so usually the relationships
do not turn out well. Unfortunately it kind of
reinforces the more unhealthy parts of those attachment styles. You know, the preoccupied
person becomes even more needy and the avoidant person
becomes more distant as a result of being in that interaction. - Right, right. In adulthood, how would this person fair in a work environment? - They tend to fair very
well in the work environment. Dismissive avoided people
are highly successful most of the times. It's the intimate relationships that tend to cause more problems. But in work, they tend to
choose highly independent jobs where they have a lot of autonomy. If they don't have a lot of
autonomy and they have to work with people, they tend to
be in leadership positions. They tend to be more authoritarian
on their own as well. So if they are going to lead, they're happy to sort of
dictate what other people have to do and they're
very comfortable with that. They don't have to necessarily
be super democratic about the process. They tend to be really confident
about their productivity. And so in work, they choose jobs that
are very challenging, jobs that might actually take
an exorbitant amount of time because that then relieves
them of the need to develop a more fleshed out emotional
life with an intimate partner. Is that still you? (Jody laughs) - Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I mean, I didn't even
know I was doing that. - Yeah. - Some of you will go, are
you dating, are you seeing? No, I work too much. I'm protecting--
- I've heard that from you. I'm protecting myself from doing, from the emotions of a
potential relationship. - Yeah. And even if you are not necessarily spelling it out loud and maybe you're not even
consciously aware of it, dismissive avoidant types
do tend to judge people who are too emotional.
- Oh, I do. - Like there is a judgment of
like, that's way too reactive. - I'm guilty. - Yeah, versus, oh, that's an appropriate
level of emotion, right. There's going to be some
judgment about how people are showing or expressing their distress. - Yeah. This is, the reason I want
people to realize this is so me, is because I have gone to therapy and I have worked on my emotional block. I recognized it was making friendships and relationships difficult. It served me very well in work. It did not serve me well in
relationships and friendships. People want emotion there. I don't. So I had to go to therapy to
figure out how to do that, even when it's not part of my makeup. And that has helped me so much. And the reason I've
shared that is because, whatever attachment
style you're falling in doesn't mean that's
where you have to stay. It just means you have to be aware of it, learn the tools and
techniques to get out of it. - Exactly. And I think
understanding, you know, the benefits of being
more securely attached. - That's a good point too. - You know kind of the benefits of that. You know, the fearful
dismissive avoidant type obviously comes with some benefits, especially in the work environment. But as you mentioned in friendships and intimate relationships, it's harder. And even with a securely
attached individual, eventually they'll start
to say, hey you know what, like you're giving me one day
out of 10 days to see you, and that's kind of not
okay with me, you know. And so eventually they will
need a little bit more from you, even if they're very securely attached. But again, dismissive avoidant individuals tend not to have that need so much. So oftentimes I see people
who are dismissive avoidant, who end up in long distance
relationships, because-- - Oh, goodness. - Right, it's like, well, now I only have to deal
with you once every month. And it's great. And then
the rest of the time, I just kind of call you to
check in, but it's brief. And so it's interesting, you know, neither kind of
choices that they make, and they also make certain choices with their friendships as well. They tend to be a little bit
more comfortable with friends who are really busy themselves. And that way, again, there's
not that huge pull for a lot. Even the way that we react sometimes to people who are sick, you know. Individuals who are more
dismissive avoidant, they will kind of have a more
difficult time with people who are expressing a lot of frailty, because it means that they have to step up and do more of the caretaking. So oftentimes they'll negotiate
that with somebody else, like, well, let's divvy this up. I don't want to have to be
the primary caregiver here. And so in general, people
would dismissive avoidant types are not that interested in being
in a caregiver role period. And so some dismissive avoidant
people may not necessarily want to have children. And when they do, they tend to still be at a more of an emotional
distance with their children, if they haven't worked on themselves. - Okay. Literally the producer's laughing
while you're saying this, because she knows that's me. She's laughing 'cause she
goes that is literally Kyle. We've had these conversations. - But you have dog. - I love her. - Yeah. But she's like
the right amount of. - Well, isn't this all on a spectrum too? - Yeah. - I mean, certainly this
is my attachment style, but it doesn't mean it at all times and every scenario I am this way. I mean, I think if somebody
came to me with a real problem, I would be there for them. So certainly this is just a roadmap, not a for sure definition. What can somebody, what can us do the
domestic avoidant people? What can we do to have better
personal relationships? - Well, I think there's a couple of tips. It's really about flexing your
emotional muscle a bit more. And again, sitting with that distress, but when an anxious preoccupied person needs to sit with the
distress of being alone, the dismissive avoidant
person needs to sit with the distress of being around people who are showing their emotions. - I know, I know. And making eye contact
when somebody is crying. - I know. - And sitting with them with
no agenda of like, okay, I've got 20 minutes and
if you're not done crying, then I'm still leaving. It's sort of like, this is open-ended. You know, I've volunteered
to come over here to soothe this person, because they're going
through something difficult. And I've given myself
the rest of the evening. If she needs me to be here
for that amount of time, that's what I'm going to do. And sort of, you know, again, you have to work your way up to that, but even the act of like
making more eye contact with somebody when they're
expressing distress. It's really interesting to watch somebody who has a dismissive avoidance style, that when other people start crying, they just start looking away. (laughs) - Yeah, that's right, right. - Versus the anxious preoccupied person. Basically, you know, you can
think of secure attachment on two dimensions and
one is highly avoidant versus low avoidance. And so the preoccupied
person is low avoidance. They don't avoid emotions at all. So if somebody is crying, like, okay, like, come on, come here. And they're literally
making so much eye contact versus the dismissive avoidant
person who is high avoidance. And so when they see that
they're like, oh, you know, start looking away. And so even just the simple
act of like really connecting with the person and looking at
them when they're expressing their negative emotions to
you and expressing their pain is a really good place to start. - Yes. Last year, Dr. Romany. I made it my goal to practice empathy. And it was a simple tip from Dr. Romany, but it really changed the way
I look at all self-improvement and for me, mental health education is just self-improvement,
that's what it is. And she said, Kyle, don't practice your listening,
your emotional vulnerability, your empathy, just in the big moments. That's not where you're
supposed to practice. That's where you're to show up. Practice in the moments
that don't really matter. When you're sitting on a plane and somebody starts talking
to you about whatever I, the old Kyle would go,
okay, whatever, you know, put on my headphones, try to
get into my own world quickly, 'cause I don't want to
talk to the stranger. But now I would use that as a time to practice and go, all right, I don't really care what
this guy has to say, but I'm going to listen to
him and I'm going to be, I'm going to fake interest. I'm faking it, but I'm practicing because if I can do it with a stranger, then I can really do it and
really connect and really show up and be present for the
people in my life who I love. And so to practice, we really mean that. Practice in the scenarios that life presents to you every single day. - Yeah, yeah. And I think for the
dismissive avoidant person, I mean, that's a great tip. And I think another tip is
really about starting to value things other than your
industrial, industrial life, your work life. You know, kind of like valuing self-care. Valuing just sitting around with a friend and having tea. You know, valuing those things that are different from
like your high sense of self in the career place. You know, sort of like, hey, this is just as important
as finishing this project. Like starting to have that
idea about your life, right. So, expanding what's important to you and how you spend your time. - Because I do now value
emotions more than I did. I used to view them as a weakness. I go, oh, that's a weak thing. That's a negative trait. But now I look at it because
I've learned so much, at Met Circle. I go, how lucky, what an amazing
gift to be able to tap into the real emotional side of you and feel comfortable enough
to express it to somebody. Oh, I would love to have that. So what a gift, some of those people have. - Yeah. And I will say,
as I've gotten older, I've valued things that are much more on the emotional spectrum myself or like things that are not
necessarily related to work. I mean, I'm definitely a workaholic myself and I think I still am,
but I have learned to value the time that I have with loved ones, at least on the same level,
if not sometimes more. You know, like maybe I wasn't
that productive this week, but like, think about all
the amazing time I spent with my friends, with my
husband, with my family, really seeing that as
something that's important. And I think that you do
learn that over time, that you know, work can
only take you so far. And then there's this whole
other side of yourself that needs to be developed too. - For parents out there who
recognize this attachment style in themselves, what can they
do to foster a healthier child? - Yeah. You know,
encouraging your children to express emotion, both
positive and negative. Sometimes parents, again, with their own dismissive
avoidant attachment style will reward their kids
for positive emotions, but not for the negative ones, to kind of almost even being
punitive for the negative ones. And so it's really about
embracing all emotions, and all emotions are good. It's all good. I have this really funny
example of a client I was working with. And, you know, we have
these little emotion cards and like little emotions stuffed animals that we use to teach little children how to talk about emotions. And it was so funny because
he took out the negative emotions in his home set
and then gave his children only the positive emotions.
And I was like, that is not... It was really funny how I found out was a child came into
session and was like, you have other ones that
my daddy doesn't have in his collection, but
it's the same exact set, but he just removed the negative emotions. - Wow. - And so we kind of had to
talk about that and he's like, I just don't want them to
think that life is hard. I'm like, I get it, I get it. But you can't like, you
can't stop those emotions. - They're going to happen. - They're going to happen, and you're not going to
know how to deal with it. So it's really about letting
them fall when you still have them under your care and
letting them experience it and like show them that
you're still there for them. And so, yeah. So you have to just let them
know the whole spectrum is okay with me and then use that opportunity to teach coping skills. So I think that's like a
really good compromise. It's like, let them experience it, but then the dismissive
avoidant part of you can still use that
opportunity to say, okay, I know you feel sad, but here are some things you can do so that you can feel less sad. - Which is healthy too. - Which is totally healthy. But, and it's really
interesting because I've had to, you know, sometimes tell people like, hey, sometimes you express a negative emotion and you get that feedback
from a dismissive parent, you know, even in adulthood. Like, oh, well, don't feel sad. Like, why would you feel sad about that? And you literally have to push
back and say, you know what, it's okay to feel sad and
you don't have to solve that problem for me. So as children get older, I encourage them to give that feedback to their dismissive avoidant parent. Like, hey, I'm fine and
it's okay to be sad. And I don't need you
to cover it up for me. Like, just because you're
uncomfortable with it, I'm not, and I'm trying not to be, you know. - That is it. (soft monotonous music) - Let's define somebody who would most likely have been raised with an anxious, preoccupied
attachment style. - Okay. So in the original
Mary Ainsworth study, these were babies who when they're, even when their mother was in the room, they still seemed kind
of clingy and distress. And so once the mother left, it was like, all hell broke loose. They
were very, very stressed out. They would be probably
crying the entire time that the mother was gone. And once the mother came back,
they were not easily soothed. I mean, they were, of course
were happy to see the mother. But despite the mother saying,
I'm here, I'm with you, they're still crying, and they have a really hard
time being able to return to independent activity. And as adults, these
individuals will oftentimes have a great difficulty
navigating relationships. They tend to be really needy. They tend to ask for a
lot from their partners in terms of nurturance. In some ways they don't have a stable self-esteem internally. So they have to keep getting
validation from people. And it's like almost few minutes later, they forgot that validation.
They have to seek it again. So oftentimes these individuals
will end up in relationships in which they're not very happy. They've given up all kinds
of their own needs and wants to satisfy the other
person's needs and wants. And they still feel like
they're left out in the cold. And these individuals
are also more at risk for abusive relationships, because again, their need for nurturance is
so high that they're willing to succumb themselves to
extremely distressing situations to not be alone. And these individuals, oftentimes adults you'll
see them kind of hop from relationship to relationship. They're serial daters they
have a hard time being alone. And when they're alone
they become very distressed and it goes for friendships as well. So they prefer to be with their friends instead of by themselves. And they will put themselves
in uncomfortable situations just to not be alone. So even if all of their
friends are doing something that they really don't want to do, they'll go along with the group, as opposed to staying home alone. - Let's go back to the study. How much of the child's
reaction do you think is from just their personality they were born with as opposed to how they're
being influenced by the parent? - So I think it's a combination. Sometimes there are
children with temperaments that are a little bit more
anxious to begin with, a little bit more clingy. But also parents can produce
that behavior in their child, if they're kind of unpredictable
in their parenting. Meaning sometimes they are there. They're very sensitive to the child. And other times they're
nowhere to be found. And I think sometimes parents
unwittingly provoke this type of attachment style in their child. For example, very busy parents. You know, they're
actually working very hard to make ends meet. But as a little child, you don't realize that your
parent was gone for 10 hours because they were working. So when they're home, they're actually pretty engaged with you and they are there to meet your needs. But then there's other
days where they come home and they're exhausted. And so then you have a lot of needs and the parents says, you know what, I just need a few minutes alone. And then they take that
to personal offense. And so you can see how sometimes
very well-meaning parents can accidentally cultivate
a preoccupied child just because again, of their
own needs and them being busy. - Right. Would you say someone with
borderline personality disorder has a high likelihood of having parents who really fostered this
type of attachment style? - I think that the most
common attachment style that's linked to borderline is actually the fearful avoidant attachment style, because the parent is even more erratic. And this would be parents
themselves who are erratic for really no good reason. I mean, the kind of scenario I propose are the kind of parents
who they just get busy or they have their own needs and they're trying to deal with
themselves and self-soothe, and they sometimes neglect the child. The parents that tend to
provoke a fearful avoidant style sometimes they're a little
bit more conscious of it and they still do it, because they're just not well themselves. So I think that borderline
is more associated with that attachment style. Although I can also see some
of it coming from this one. The fear of abandonment is much greater for a fearful avoidant child than it is for an anxious
preoccupied child. And I think oftentimes children who are anxiously preoccupied
throughout their life, they get sort of re-experience
is that strengthened that type of attachment style. Like maybe the relationship
that they choose as adults. They keep choosing dismissive
partners or partners who can't meet their needs. And so then they keep
reinforcing that belief about themselves that
maybe they're unlovable and they don't want to like sit with that. And that's why they have
a hard time being alone. - So with no awareness,
are we most likely to mimic the attachment style we were raised in? - Yes. Yes. And I think that there's a
theory that you end up seeking partners that are kind of
similar to your parents and you basically re-enact the same thing over and over again, whether it's some type of a trauma or not. And so if you were a child who felt like you were constantly reaching
for your parents for support, and they were sometimes
there, and sometimes not. As adults, you're attracted to people who also sort of have those tendencies, where they kind of get
busy with their own lives. And again, maybe they love you, but they just don't
have a lot of bandwidth to be dealing with your
insecurities all the time. And so I don't really find,
for example, that many, many people who have the
preoccupied attachment style actually end up being with each other. Although sometimes that does happen. They tend to seek out partners
that are different from them in terms of their attachment
styles and oftentimes replicating the parenting
style of their caregivers. - Got it. Now it's important to
mention here though, that, although my question
was the potential causes or correlation between attachment style and personality disorders. There's not just one
cause for any of those. I mean, it can be a hodgepodge of things. But I think it helps
people kind of see where, what parts of their history
might be influencing their current behavior today. - Absolutely. And it does play such a role, not even just an intimate relationships, but even the career you choose. People who have an anxious,
preoccupied attachment tend to be in jobs where
they're a part of a pack. They feel much more comfortable
sort of blending into a pack as opposed to even being
the leader of the pack. In the group dynamic they
tend to be the followers and they tend to really avoid conflict, because to them conflict
might mean rejection. And so they kind of
tend to do roles in life that are more passive, because they're trying to
make sure that they don't lose any nutrients that they
can get from someone. And they also need a ton of validation. So they find themselves in jobs where they seek a lot of that validation. And it's interesting because
some anxiously preoccupied individuals actually
end up getting in jobs where validation is few and far between, like for example, acting. - Oh, right. Yeah. - It's really interesting. I've worked with a lot
of actors who have said, you know what, I think this
might be my attachment style, and weird, I chose a job where I literally have to deal with that
attachment issue every day. - Yes, yes. If you recognize these
patterns in yourself and you want to change, what do you do? - Well, if you know that you're probably an anxiously preoccupied person
and you want to change that, I think the first thing
is really establishing a stronger sense of self. You know, one easy way to do this would be just to start developing a hobby, where you basically do it on your own. It's not a hobby that you have to do with other people, right. And just starting from there. For a lot of my patients who have anxiously
preoccupied, attachment styles, I challenged them to go
out to coffee by themselves and then go out to lunch by themselves. Like get used to spending
time by herself and even in the public environment where
you might be afraid of other people's judgment, like
who is this person who is you know, eating by themselves.
Nobody cares by the way. - Nobody is thinking about you. - Just the other day, I was
stuck in so much traffic that I ended up going to
this really nice restaurant and I had a five-course meal by myself. - Dang, good for you. - For like two and a half hours. And it was great 'cause
by the time I was done, I, there was no traffic.
- No traffic, yeah. - Yeah, it was lovely. But as I was there, I was thinking about how that
would be such a challenge for somebody who's main attachment style is probably anxious, preoccupied. The whole time they're probably thinking other people are judging them. They think that they're loners. They think that they're losers, right. And it's the, nobody's thinking about you. That's the funny thing. If everybody's thinking about
themselves most of the time. So just challenge them to do
more independent activities and like to sit with that distress. And to really start getting
comfortable with themselves. Basically start to learn the technique of self-soothing, right, as opposed to looking for
others to sooth your distress. - [Kyle] Excellent.
- Yeah. - So for somebody who just, you know, started shaking when you
said, got to lunch by herself. - [Jody] Yeah. - Where could they start that isn't that? - I think starting a hobby
that's more independent. I mean, even just sitting at
home and saying, you know what, I'm going to do this
jigsaw puzzle by myself. And I'm going to do this
jigsaw puzzle by myself without calling a friend and talking to them at the same time. Like really just sit by yourself. - Or putting it on social media. - Right. Exactly. Like just do it on your own and also do it in a time limited way. So I'm going to do this
for 30 minutes today. And that's why I say, you know,
go to coffee for 30 minutes. And then if you can do that, then do lunch for an hour. You know, work your way up
to being more independent and having your identity and life outside. Because what happens with
people who are anxious, preoccupied is they lose
their sense of self. They're so passive and
they're so busy dealing with other people's needs and wants that they don't even know
what they want anymore. But it actually ends up creating
the abandonment they fear, because people are like, well, you're uninteresting,
you're too clingy. So by developing your own hobbies and having a good sense of independence, you actually attract the kind
of partners that you want. You have things to talk about, you know, when you're
with your partner, yeah. - For the person who's
recognizing these symptoms in themselves, but they're
also a parent or a caregiver, how do they start to shift
the attachment style so that their child or the
person they're caring for is being raised with
that secure attachment? - Yeah. I think for an
anxious, preoccupied, parent, it's important for them to
modulate their own anxiety and realize that some of that
anxiety might be warranted. And some of it's not rooted in reality. And for those that are
not rooted in reality, they have to learn to step
aside, deal with their anxiety, take some deep breaths,
do the coping strategies and go back in the room with
your child and present calmly. Because if you present
in front of your child as super anxious, you might
raise an anxious child. And so you definitely need to say, okay, do I need to be anxious here? If not, then I'm going to step away, deal with my own emotions,
come back and be calm. And also use it as a teaching moment. If you do end up getting really anxious in front of your child, later on in an age-appropriate
way, have a discussion. So sorry mommy looked like
she was having a nervous, a nervous attack. Mommy's fine, but she just got
really worried for a second. And when that happened, mommy started to do
some breathing exercises and now I feel better. So engage your children
in that conversation so they can realize, hey,
my parent's not perfect, but they're actually doing
things to try to foster resilience in themselves and
I can follow that template. - And what's really cool about that is then the child sees the
parent being self-aware. - Yes. - And so hopefully the
child grows up understanding that they too can be self-aware. I didn't learn self-awareness
until I don't even. I mean late, late, late, late. I forgot that I could be
aware of my own emotions. I just let them go however they wanted to. Before we wrap up this session. What are some good coping
mechanisms when those parents who have this type of attachment
style start to feel really anxious in front of their kids,
but they want to calm down. - Honestly breathing is the
first thing that they should do. Because when you get anxious, you start to really activate
the fight or flight system, the sympathetic nervous system. And so the deep breathing brings
you back to that center of, hey, there's nothing to
worry about. I can relax. I can let go of that whole
fight or flight response. And so take some deep breaths
and then check your thoughts. You know, check your thoughts and say, do these thoughts have
any bearing in reality? And if they don't do
the diffusion technique that we've talked about in
some of the other series. You know, attach a sentence before your negative thought or fear. I'm having the thought that I'm not going to finish my work before the deadline. I'm having the thought
that my husband isn't home and it means something nefarious, right. And letting yourself
understand that there's so many thoughts that can come through our heads that don't have any meanings, so don't attach yourself to them and start to get yourself worked up. - Yes. Was that in the CVTC series? - That was in the acceptance
and commitment therapy. - Acceptance and commitment therapy. That's one of our favorites. So if you have not watched that series it is available on Med Circle. It's called acceptance
and commitment therapy. One of my all time favorite therapies. But since we're talking about therapies and we do have a little
more time on this session. What type of therapies
would be best in treating or improving these types
of attachment styles? - I think really it's about therapies that really do bring you
some sense of awareness. So some of the more introspective
therapies are helpful, but then you have to pair
that with actual skillsets. - Yes. - And so once you have that introspection, it's really about learning
skills to self-sooth, learning skills to tolerate distress, very important for the
anxious preoccupied person. So techniques such as distress tolerance or emotion regulation
from the DBT literature is really helpful. Behavior activation and
interpersonal effectiveness from CBT would be really helpful too, so that these individuals
can learn to communicate their needs in a more assertive fashion. (soft monotonous music) - That leaves us with
fearful avoidant attachments. What is this? - Okay. So this is actually
the rarest of the four types. And this is a individual who
in the Mary Ainsworth study was sort of, kind of displaying a kind of
disorganized way of coping, when their parents were
in the room versus not. So some of these children would
actually react very harshly to their parent when they come
back and they may actually even be dismissive towards
the parent or seemingly angry. Other times they seem
not to care all that much when the parents came back. But when the parent was gone and the video was still rolling, they were very distressed
without the parent. And yet when the parent came, they acted like they didn't
care about the parent. And so it wasn't like one
type of cohesive style. And as adults fearful
avoidant people tend to have a more dialectic about
their need for other people. So on the one hand, they really want the close relationships. On the other hand, they kind of don't want it and fear it and don't want to invest a lot in it. And so they kind of
bridge this big spectrum and they may act differently depending on how they're feeling at a given moment, which to other people feel
erratic because they don't really know how to predict
this person's behavior. And sometimes people who are
fearful avoidant as adults, they tend to be a lot less stable for their friendships as well. Like they have maybe a
small group of friends who, you know, they feel more
comfortable giving to, but then with other people,
they can be very dismissive. So in some ways they kind of
embody both of the preoccupied type and the dismissive
avoidant type to some degree. - Right. Are there common co-occurring
mental health disorders that you could find with someone
who has this attachment style? - So people who are fearful
avoidant in general, they are the ones that confer
the most psychological risks of all of the four types. And so they are a little
bit more prone to anxiety, a little bit more prone to depression, and a little bit more prone to other types of relational issues. And one of the most common
ones that is associated with the fearful avoidant type is
borderline personality traits and particularly the dimension
about fear of abandonment. So actually in many ways, fearful avoidant types are
actually even more afraid of abandonment than the preoccupied types. But unlike the preoccupied types, they are not willing to give
over their entire sense of self to be in a relationship. And so they have a fear of abandonment, but they're also kind of more
resolute in that they still want to have their own space
and their own boundaries. And so it creates a lot of difficulties and barriers and challenges
to have relationships. - Yeah, absolutely. If somebody feels like this
is resonating with them, is it like the other ones likely
because their parents were, you know, exhibiting the
same attachment style. - Yeah. In general, fearful avoidant children were
exposed to parenting styles are kind of erratic too. And oftentimes the parents
maybe were struggling with certain things like their own anxiety and their own depression
so that they weren't able to meet the child's needs consistently. And the parents were not always anxious. Sometimes they were anxious, but sometimes they were
completely dismissive and sometimes they weren't
there for the child, and sometimes they were too
much there for the child. And so I think it creates
this sort of disorganized attachment in the young child because they're trying to
figure out how do I navigate the rest of my life if this
is my primary template. And they don't really have
one type of coping strategy to go to. So they find themselves kind
of almost like kind of wavering in the wind. It's like, whatever people
want them to do, they'll do, and sometimes they don't. And it's really interesting
because a recent study came out about the sex lives of individuals who have fearful avoidant attachment. And it turns out that in general, they have more sexual partners than the other three attachment types. But also that in general, they may say yes to
dates and say yes to sex, to people who they're not even necessarily that interested in. And so again, just this idea of, well, I'll kind of just go with the environment and go with the moment, but I'm not sure how much more I want to take it beyond that. You know, do I really
actually want to become more intimate with this
person in a long-term fashion? - So in many ways, as you mentioned, this final attachment style is a lot like anxious, preoccupied and dismissive avoidant hybrid. - Yes, absolutely. And the way that it exhibits
in terms of behaviors, is that the person will
want that closeness, and then they'll pull
away all of a sudden, and they'll want that
closeness and pull away. And so in the beginning-- - And not pull away to get the closeness? - No. - Because you know how
some people pull away 'cause they want to be chased? - Yes.
- Right. - It's less so. It's more about pulling away
and cutting that person off and not looking back. And so sometimes they may think, well, this relationship is
getting too serious or maybe this person has done
something that really hurt me. And instead of giving that
person a second chance, a fearful avoidant person
might do something that really severely cuts off that relationship so that there is no
prospect for continuing. - This is really helpful
for people to be aware of. Because part of my
recovery from depression came from my awareness of my depression. My depression is a
symptom, it's a condition. It's not who Kyle Kittleson is. It's something over here that
I can manage appropriately so I can still live my life. Same thing with these attachment styles. These are not diagnosable conditions, but if we can start to
view them as something that's over here and say, all
right, this isn't really me. This is my fearful avoidant attachment that has taken my whole life to condition. So let's go easy on myself a
little bit and recognize that I might need to sit down and
not fully pull away from this person who means well and
attack it with that awareness. - Absolutely. And I think the awareness
is key because even people who struggle with fearful
avoidant attachment can have satisfying relationships and can have satisfying
friendships and work lives. And in general, people with fearful
avoidant don't necessarily have issues with work per se. But when they feel like too many demands are being made on them, they might actually
get sort of distressed. They don't like that.
They might, you know, sort of back away from
further responsibility if they feel like they're
being asked to do too much. But in relationships and friendships, people with fearful avoidant attachment, as soon as they're aware of
those attachment influences and are willing to work on them can have wonderful relationships as well. - So sometimes you get me. I'm dismissive avoidant
attachment almost to a tee. But I would imagine there's
a lot of people who heard all those attachment
styles and thought, okay, I'm not really one, I'm
a little bit of this, I'm a little bit of that,
I'm a little bit of that. What do people do with that information? - Well, I think there's
definitely a spectrum. And I think when you know
that you're on a spectrum, you understand your own strengths and also some areas for improvement. And that's, I think really the takeaway for people to understand
their attachment styles. It's not to pathologize you. It's not to say, oh my
gosh, you're insecure. What does this mean? It's not meant to label anybody. Although of course there are categories and so inherently they are labels. But if you understand
yourself on the spectrum, then you can say, okay, objectively here are the
things that I'm good at, and here are the things that maybe are more challenging to me. And then you really ask yourself, is it important for me to
work on these challenges? And I think sometimes you have
to feel like it's impacting your life in a negative
way for you to want to work on those challenges. - [Kyle] That's so true.
- Right. - I didn't work on my emotional challenges until I recognized they were problems. Before I would go that is your problem that I'm not emotionally available to. That's how I thought. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then once you realize, you know what, maybe I should take
responsibility for some of this and maybe I could be better to my friends, or maybe I could create an
environment that would be better and more welcoming to a romantic partner. Then you do those things. Like you have to have the skin in the game to be able to want to invest, right. But I think it's just in the
vein of self-improvement. You know, understand
where your difficulties are coming from and know that
there's ways to challenge it. For somebody who has
fearful avoidant attachment, it's really all about
establishing consistency, because there's a huge
level of erraticness. And so a very important exercise for people who are fearful avoidant is to let themselves stay
in a distressing emotion or distressing situation
for a period of time. - Oh, that's hard. - Just sit with it. Yeah, sit with it and
sit with the fact that you might want to run away
or you might want to-- - So what's an example of that? - So I think one example would be when you're dating somebody and you know, that that person is maybe not giving you what
you need in various ways. Whether it's they're being too clingy or they're being too dismissive. And sitting there and
allowing yourself to say, you know what, I'm going
to give it one more date or I'm going to give him a few
more hours to call me back. And being okay with that as opposed to acting out right there. Because people who are fearful
avoidant sometimes will either get super clingy in that moment or they'll get super dismissive. And they'll say, you know what, forget it. I'm done with you. If you call me back, I'm not
even going to answer the phone. So it's really about
stretching their bounds for the ambiguities, the
grace, the in-betweens. So that you're not so black and white in your thinking and decision-making. - So when are we becoming
gray in our thinking and willingly being with
somebody who treats us poorly? - [Jody] Right. - 'Cause maybe you're
supposed to call me back after two days. - Right. And I think that's when
you have to really check in with yourself and also
your family and friends, people who love you and say, do you think this is acceptable behavior? Is this me being maybe hypersensitive and just wanting to cut things off? Or is this okay? You know, because we've
only gone on two dates and maybe it's all right
that he hasn't texted me back in five hours. Maybe it's okay that he
gets back to me tomorrow that's not a bad thing, you know. And so I think sometimes you
do have to rely on your friends when you're not sure if your
own barometer isn't unduly influenced by your emotions
and your attachment style. - Yeah. I get that. I get that. Because I rely on other
people to tell me things that I wouldn't be able to do. So if you see an areas in your
life that you can improve in then and other people in your circle can help fill in those gaps, why wouldn't you take advantage of that? - Yeah. And even that is a great exercise. Just even asking a friend
for help is a great exercise for a fearful avoidant type.
- [Kyle] That's true, right. - Because generally they
want that closeness, but they don't think that
they can rely on people. So it's like they want it, but they think people are
going to disappoint them. So they don't even put
themselves out there. But of course over time that
just reinforces that idea that no one can be there for them because they've never given
anybody the opportunity. So attachment theory is all about how we establish that relationship with our primary caregivers
and whether or not that establishment is healthy or not. And how that influences,
how you function as a child, both mentally and physically, and again pervades into your
adulthood in career, in love, in friendships and every
other aspect of your life. - Do we know that it is affecting us or is it affecting us subconsciously? - I think sometimes you don't realize it. And I think, unless you
hear the word attachment or you've understood the term attachment or had been spoken about
to somebody in some way, you're not going to really
know that that's attachment. But it will explain so many
of your decisions in life. It explains why you're attracted
to the people that you are. It sometimes even explains
the type of work you do. And it explains the kind of
friends you like to keep. So it really does affect
so many areas of your life, which is why I think your viewers have requested this so much. - Thanks for watching. Check out the links below for more information on how
to access this full series and subscribe to our YouTube channel to watch new mental
health videos every week. Did you like what you heard in this video? If you want to ask a Med Circle doctor a question directly, you can. Learn how by visiting the links in the description below.
Lots of unhelpful drama in this sub lately. I wanted to share the video that started my deep dive into attachment theory a year ago.
Hope this is genuinely helpful to you.