Sadhguru: Data means repetitive things, nothing
new can ever happen in data. Consciousness means it is a memory-less intelligence
– intelligence beyond memory. Aren't we denying ourselves the fundamental
nature of life itself, simply because our instruments are not up to the mark? As you already said and everybody will agree
that human mechanism right now is the most sophisticated piece of technology on the planet. So, should we not learn to use it? You cannot slap one meaning from your mind
upon a limitless possibility, which is the very basis of our existence. So, this is what is the fundamental mistake
that we are trying to take a piece of our psychological process and trying to understand
what is consciousness. Whether it is death, coma, anesthesia – in
my understanding and my experience of things, they're not very different; it is just different
levels of profoundness of the same thing. When you become completely unawake, that means
you're dead. Moderator (Bala): Good morning. Vannakam. Namaskaram. Namaste. My name is Bala Subramaniam, and here we are
for a very exciting session with very interesting and also exciting personalities. So, it'll be a great session I think, and
something close to my heart as well. And I want to introduce briefly about myself
– I'm an anesthesiologist. I work at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center,
a Harvard teaching hospital, and I had my initial training in Puducherry, India. I did my MBBS in JIPMER followed by anesthesiology
at the All India Institute of Medical Sciences in Delhi. Then I spent a year in UK doing Critical Care
Medicine. Then I came to Beth Israel Deaconess Medical
Center, I trained at the School of Public Health. Currently I'm also an Associate Professor
of Medicine and endowed chair at the Harvard Medical School. It is my privilege to introduce Steven Laureys
– a Belgian neurologist. He is recognized worldwide as a leading clinician
and researcher in the field of neurology of consciousness. Steven was born and live (lives?) in Belgium,
and is married to a psychologist. They have five beautiful children. While specializing in neurology he did research
in parallel in pharmaceutical pain, working on pain and stroke. He moved on to functional neuro-imaging for
more than two decades now. Steven has a full MD Ph.D. and is a full professor. He is a founding director of GIGA Consciousness
and Coma Science Group at the University of Liege. He holds several international collaborative
leadership positions, editorial reviewing activities, multiple TV shows with CNN, ABC,
BBC, radio shows, acted in a movie, Ted Speaker and keynote and research lectures including
the ones notably the Nobel Forum in Stockholm. His books include the "Neurology of Consciousness,"
and notably is the "Meditation Is Good For Your brain" and I think he has recently come
out with something called, "No-nonsense meditation book" – it's a best-seller in Netherlands
and Belgium. I find him as a very impressive personality
who is in his quest for consciousness scientifically and he also is a meditator. So, it is my pleasure to introduce him, Steven. Steven: Thank you so much Bala for this wonderful
introduction, too flattering. Moderator: (Laughs) All right! Steven, you want to say why you wanted to
the title to be "Mind and brain?" Steven: Because that's what drives me. I think as a teenager like many I think, asking
these questions about, "What am I doing here in this universe?" these big questions, and
I'm so happy that I made my job out of that... terribly difficult question about what is
consciousness and... and then to translate that knowledge into our clinical activities
as a neurologist, and in particular trying to care better for the damaged brains, but
actually the more I learn about the brain and the mind, I think the more I am just fascinating
and I look at it with marvel. And it's incredible how much actually we ignore
about the mind and the brain. Moderator: Great! Sadhguru, are these one and the same (Sadhguru
laughs), mind and brain? Sadhguru: (Laughs) Well, in the yogic sciences,
we do not accord the kind of significance that modern physiology accords to the brain. We see brain just as body. It is just body, it is one more aspect of
the body. But mind or what we are referring to as mind,
the English word mind is not specific, it's kind of too general. Normally, we identify four parts to what we
now talking about as mind. The moment you use the English language, you
kind of speaking... when it comes to anything internal, we're talking in more generalities,
not specific. So, if you want specifics, well, we identify
something called as buddhi, which is the intellect, which I feel largely in modern societies they
are considering intellect as mind. Essentially... I mean I'm not saying this with any prejudice,
because I'm... I'm talking in terms of where these things
have evolved. The European culture has recognized intellect
as mind. In the yogic sciences, we see intellect only
as an instrument of survival, which functions on the basis of the limited data that we have
gathered through our sensory perceptions. Intellect is quite a useless thing if you
do not have data. If there is no data, intellect cannot function. So, intellect is very much like... why today,
your phone has an intellect of its own. Yes, it has. It has data, and it can use it. If it doesn't yet have, I don't know what...
you're... you're shaking your head Steven, I think you're using a bad phone (Laughter). You... You’re still on Nokia, I think (Laughter). Steven: I think even the best iPhone is still
quite stupid, isn't it? It has no subjective experience. So, because we talk about artificial intelligence
and machine learning and... Sadhguru: Yes, yes, but I'm talking about
intellect. Intellect means it... it has data; using the
data, it will do permutations and combinations, which the phone is beginning to do, maybe
not to the same level as a human intellect, but it is beginning to do that activity. Even among human beings, not every human being
is able to process the same amount of data and with the same complexity and sophistication. So... Well, you have the brain of a monk, but you
must also have a brain of a politician, and then you would know what I'm talking about
(Laughs). Steven: It's classified (Sadhguru and moderator
laugh). But... Sadhguru: No, no, these... these days they're
smart. It's not like old times, okay? So, I'm saying this intellectual process is
being generally spoken off as mind. That's not how we look at it. We see intellect is called buddhi, which is
essentially functioning out of limited data that it has gathered, largely conscious data. Sometimes it accesses data, which is not very
conscious, but largely it functions only out of conscious data. You will see if somebody is having little
trouble remembering something, suddenly intellect goes helpless for a period of time. "I can't remember this," means there is nothing
I can do about it. Though unconsciously that memory is still
there, just because you are not able to retrieve it, intellect feels helpless for that fe...
little bit of time. So, this is called as buddhi. The next dimension of intelligence, or I'm... I'm using the word intelligence instead of
mind so that there is a distinction in language. The next dimension of intelligence is referred
to as ahankara. This means... there are many ways to look
at it. People usually say it's ego, but essentially,
it's identity. Because the way you identified, that is the
way your intellect will function. Now if you say, "I belong to this nation,"
your intellect will function just to protect that identity. If you say, "I belong to this religion or
race or caste or creed or gender or whatever," accordingly, your intellect functions, because
intellect is essentially guided... it is a survival process. If you identify with something, intellect
will consciously... constantly go around that trying to protect that identity. So, in the yogic system we consider the ahankara
or the identity that you take on far more important than the nature of the intellect
itself, because intellect is a slave of the identity that you have taken. Once you take a certain identity, intellect
will function in a specific way only towards that, and what is right for you, what is wrong
for you, everything is dependent upon how you're identified. So, the third dimension of intelligence is
called manas, where there are eight dimensions of memory, starting from elemental memory,
atomic memory, evolutionary memory, genetic memory, karmic memory, articulate, inarticulate
memories, conscious, unconscious memories – like this, eight dimensions of memory. Now, how you access this huge silo of memory? Right now, we have a human form only because
of the evolutionary memory that's invested within us. If there is no memory, well if you eat you
may change the human form into something else. Only memory is so strongly instilled in every
cell in our body, that is why it doesn't matter what we eat, even if we eat dog food – right
now because we are under lockdown, you know it can happen –even if we happen to eat
dog food, we will not become dogs, we will still remain human simply because of heavily
invested memory... evolutionary memory in our system. Similarly, genetics – it doesn't matter,
you eat Indian food, you won't become like me. I eat European food, you... I won't become like you, because there is
a genetic memory which clearly is established. Like this, there is karmic memory and other
aspects of memory, but how you access this vast amount of memory simply depends upon
how you are identified. In which way are you identified, how strong
your is... your identity is, accordingly you access this memory. Though this data is there, this data is processed
based on your identity. If your identity is very nationalistic, now
this data functions in that way – you're willing to live and die for that identity. These days, people are (Laughs)... in Europe,
they're even identified with their football club. They're willing to live and die for it. So, it may look ridiculous for somebody else,
but football club is more than a nation for someone else. It's more than a religion, it's more than
a race or whatever else which anyway people are willing to live and die for. So essentially, the identity, if it is consciously
established, then there is a bigger possibility. So, in yoga, always we are trying to establish
a cosmic identity, because if you establish a limitless identity, your ability to access
this vast amount of memory which is there in every cell in our body is greatly enhanced,
and that is how a human being suddenly seems like way above what everybody else is functioning. One, human being functions way above that,
because his ability to access this enormous amount of memory, which is recorded the whole
evolutionary process on this planet. The very development of life on this planet
is living within us, but can you access it or not is the only question. So, a very limitless, at least we cannot see
the limits, to that extent you take the identity. You take the identity with the world or with
the universe or the cosmos or whatever you think is the biggest thing out here. So, the next dimension of intelligence is
called chitta. Chitta means it is an intelligence, which
is unsullied by memory, there is no memory at all. This is just pure intelligence. This is the basis of creation that today,
if we eat a fruit, this becomes a human being within us in a few hours, simply because the
fundamental intelligence of the creation itself is functioning within us, and it is free of
all memory, there is no memory in it. No memory means it is limitless. Memory is a boundary that we have set. Now, "This is in my memory," means this is
my boundary; "That is not in my memory," means that is not in my boundary. So, a dimension of intelligence which is free
of memory means, it is a limitless possibility. So, in the yogic sciences, they... mischievous
expression of this is if you access your chitta or this dimension of intelligence which is
free of memory, they sa... we say, "God will become your slave." Moderator: Thank you Sadhguru. Do you have a followup? Steven: Yeah, thank you for that. You refer to the yogic sciences. So how... because in science, we always want
to verify and actually find ways to prove us wrong. So, you know, I'm this hard-nosed scientist
and trying to confront everything I think... Sadhguru: No, no. Hard nose... Hard nose is not a good thing during the COVID
time, it's not a good thing to have a hard nose. Steven: But so this, you know, way of looking
at nature, and to make objective observations, and then to verify and so to come up with
theories of the mind that has explanatory value, that has predictive value. So, I am a bit surprised you call it, in that
way sciences, as I maybe understand it's something you have experienced, which is for me as a
scientist, the next big challenge to somehow reconnect with the form of spirituality. So how could we know that what you explained
is correct or could it be wrong, or could we find ways to test this? Sadhguru: Mhmm (Indicating agreement) we can. See right now, if we... is it true that human
beings the moment they get identified with something, it is everything to them? Is that so? Whether it's nation, religion, race, what
is this? Steven: I follow you for the identity ego
_____ (Inaudible) (Overlapping conversation) Sadhguru: ...they just took on an identity. Don... No, no, no not the... not ego, it's just identity. I'm... "I'm an Indian," means I'm willing to live
and die for this country – that's how it is, and that's what is expected also, if you
are a part of a nation (Laughs). So... So, you know identity determines how a person
thinks, feels, everything. Just a piece of cloth, just flies like this,
people shed tears. It's a flag, you know, a national flag does
this (Gestures), people stand there, grown up men shed tears. What is there in the cloth? There is nothing. It's... It's just the identity that you have taken
on, which makes you feel like this. So entire human experience is determined by
an identity that one takes. When one sleeps, there is no identity. When dreams, there is identity, but in sleep
there is no identity. In death there is no identity. Well, you can always talk about your anesthesia
and there is no identity (Laughs). I'm not the person to talk about that. But I'm saying the... in conscious experience
of life, one's identity is determing... determining everything. Well, does it show up in your blood, does
it show up in your chemical analysis? I don't know. That's for you guys to say, but it is a fact
that people's way of thinking, feeling, working and what... how they live is determined by
their identity. So, is it scientific enough, I'm asking, when
the whole world is demonstrating it? So, the next thing is memory – the manas. Now, we were talking about many things. The... Steven do you remember how your great great
great... ten generations ago how your great-grandfather looked like? Do you remember? Hmm? Steven: (Laughs) And somehow yes. I know. I have the nose on my face (Laughs). Sadhguru: (Laughs) Yeah, yeah. You've been listening. You're not remembering (Laughs). Steven: Absolutely. And so we kind of understand that a little
bit in terms of the genetics, and as you say it all comes down somehow to the language
we use and then it can become very confusing. But... so, in terms of your comparison to
my brain, and my iPhone and the way it deals with data, I think there's something fundamentally
different with how.... (Overlapping conversation) Sadhguru: No, no no. It is... It is a question of lack of complexity and
sophistication when it comes to the iPhone. It is not as sophisticated and complex as
your intellect. I did not use the word 'brain'. I said your intellect. Steven: The difference between the iPhone
and the data processing and us having feelings, right? My iPhone is not… (Overlapping conversation). Sadhguru: No, no, no, no, no, no. That's not what I said. I said, between your intellect. See this is the problem. Right now, English language is using the word
mind in a very general term. Now if you go more specific, in this mind,
there is intellect, there is identity, there is a huge volume of memory, and there is a
dimension called chitta. Right now, I don't want to call consciousness,
because the word consciousness needs some cleaning. It's kind of absorbed all kinds of stuff in
the, you know, in the medical lexicon. So, we will leave that aside. These three together or these four together
– you're calling it as mind. But if you look at the intellectual process
alone, that and your iPhone are not fundamentally different, but very different in terms of
sophistication and complexity – very, very different, another world altogether. Steven: Umm, So I... I'm very excited about the brain. It's my favorite organ. Sadhguru: That one... That one you have on the table or yours? Steven: That one I have up there. Sadhguru: Oh, oh! Not on the table? (Steven laughs) No because that seems to have
more gray matter, that's why I asked you. Steven: That is maybe true because this the
brain of a experienced meditator and I am just an amateur. But these brains are important, of course,
right, and there's other organs that I like, but without this one, it's less fun. So also when we talk about organ transplantation,
and by the way, are you an organ donor? Sadhguru: I told you I gave away my brain
long time ago. I also gave away my... gave away my heart
(Laughter). Steven: No but seriously, it’s because you
have so many followers, so... you know, we redefine death and we now have brain deaths
_____ (Unclear) there's... well, lives that can be saved, thanks to organ donation. So, are you okay to after death give your
organs? Sadhguru: I am not right now planning to die
so soon, so let's see when it comes, hmm? By the time... By the time I die at least, my brains I would've
used it up fully. Moderator: Steven I thought I will… Sorry, go ahead Steven. Steven: No, no, no... So I think that the example of transplantation
is... is of course interesting in a sense that it shows kind of the importance of the
brain, right, because you can replace nearly every organ and we can now indeed even replace
the heart, and it would still, fundamentally, not change the way you think and feel and
perceive emotions. But of course, for the brain it's different. So, there are... there is something special
about this organ. But... And there, we shouldn't be too arrogant. When it comes to the big question of consciousness
and explaining thoughts and perception and emotions, we just have a terribly hard time
to go from something material, that is this brain, and to this very first person’s subjective
experience. So, there for you I understand that the brain
is not the whole story, right if I'm correct and then there's... Sadhguru: I... I generally think through my whole body. Really. That is why... Steven: And, that is true. (Overlapping conversation) Sadhguru: That is why I can do two dozen things
at the same time and don't feel any stress, because I use every cell in my body. Steven: Okay! Sadhguru: Because what you're referring to
as intelligence, essentially, in most people's experience... I am not somebody who's propounding this,
but in most people's experience, a certain combination of memory and intelligence is
what they're calling as mind, isn't it? Steven: Yes. It's difficult, because we're talking about
definitions, but yes. Sadhguru: So, tell me in every cell in your
body, there's much, much more memory than it's there in your brain, and the number of
complex functions that every cell in your body is functioning, you can never figure
it out in your brain, the amount of chemical reactions that are happening across, not necessarily
managed by your brain, it's happening of its own nature. So, when they are able to do so much, there
is an intelligence. So, in yoga, we don't say mind is here or
there; we say there is a mental body. As there is a physical body, there is a mental
body. There is a... There is a whole scape of memory and intelligence
spread across the system. But now I believe you know, we... we've always
given a lot of significance to this, but I understand now these days doctors are saying
there is quite a bit of brain in the stomach. Am I right? Steven: Yes. Sadhguru: What do they call this Bala, what
do they call that? I heard that... Steven: The second brain some call it, and
so indeed we have a lot of these nerve cells in our gut. Yet, if I have to choose between losing those...
or those nerve cells, I think I rather have the brain, and I think again we can transplant
your guts, and it wouldn't really fundamentally change who and what you are. Moderator: I’m not sure about the _____
(Unclear) transplantation. Steven: Sorry. Moderator: I'm not so sure about the gut transplantation. It's not so widely done and it's... Steven: No, no, no of course. Moderator: I agree, brain… there is no transplantation. Steven: But we…we can like anesthetize them,
you can change the activity of that autonomous system, and the impact would be very different,
right... than while you change the activity of those brain cells? So, I think we all agree that the brain is
something important, right? And… Sadhguru: No ques... No question about that. There's no question about whether brain is
important or not. But brain is important and it's functional
only because of the connectivity to the rest of the body, with the neurological system. Suppose you cut something in your spine, then
the brain cannot function by itself and it's meaningless, what it does, only because it's
connected. So how yoga sees brain is, not as an organ
per se, it is part of the neurological system. It's like one big knot where more is happening
in one place than the rest of the places, but it doesn't mean it is not happening in
the rest of the place. So that's why I said, "I think through my
body." This is why even if you're doing two dozen
things at the same time, you don't have any level of stress because it is like, if you're
just thinking just here, what it means is you bought a car with four wheels, but you
drive it on one wheel all the time. Obviously, one will wear out very quickly
and there's too much stress. Every time people have to do something – simple
things if they have to decide what clothes to wear, where to go, what to do, they get
so stressed on a daily basis, because they're using just one dimension of their intelligence,
not exercising other dimensions of their intelligence. Steven: And that you can train through yoga? Yes? Sadhguru: Oh de... Oh definitely, yes. Steven: And I am... as I said, struggling
to understand consciousness and again we shouldn't be too arrogant, it's to me one of the big
mysteries for science to solve, right – with this objective scientific method. Some would even say it's impossible, and we
will never be able with our limited mind to understand the mind, but I'm naively optimistic. But it is true that, as you said repeatedly,
maybe we should be more emphasizing the experience, right, and that is why I'm listening to these
athletes of the mind, and these traditions, being your tradition or Buddhism, or... and
I think we have first of all considered consciousness as a taboo. It was just impossible when I started in the
90's even to find money to study consciousness, and that is finally changing, but still...
and next maybe now we're too excited, because we have these machines – functional MRI
(Sadhguru laughs) and we can you know, 3D print brains and look at how the parts of
the brain light up and so on and so forth. But maybe we ignore a little bit too much,
the phenomenology? So, when I have these Buddhist monks in my
machine, and they talk about these different levels of consciousness, and you just mentioned
something like pure consciousness or intelligence, for me it's very very difficult, because I
never had that experience right, and so I think I should... (Overlapping conversation). Sadhguru: No, no, no, what you're saying is...
no what you're saying is, "It is difficult for me because it's not there in my memory." That's exactly what I said. If something is not in your memory, your intellect
is helpless about that aspect of life. So how will it come into your memory, unless
it has come into your experience? You know, what is red, blue, yellow has come
into your experience. That is why it's in your memory, otherwise
it wouldn't be there in your memory. If you see a certain kind of food, certain
kind of drink, certain kind of situation, you know what it is only because it's there
in your memory, otherwise you wouldn't know. So right now, something that is not yet...
something that is not yet in your memory, you are trying to sort it out in your intellect
– that's never going to happen. It is not that you will never be able to figure
this. That's not the point. You will never be able to figure it with the
kind of instruments that you're using right now. First instrument that you're using is intellect
and all other instruments whatever scientific stuff in your lab, this is all products of
intel... intellect. They all function only from data. So, data means repetitive things, nothing
new can ever happen in data. Consciousness means, it’s a memory-less
intelligence – intelligence beyond memory. Unfortunately, because of the type of modern
education that we have, we are making people misunderstand that memory is intelligence. You know, if you... if you read a textbook
and keep it in your gut and go to the examination hall and vom... puke it on the paper, you
will be first rank, all right? Simply because you have memory. So, memory is being misunderstood as intelligence. But intelligence doesn't need memory. Intelligence functions of its own accord. Intelligence can generate memory, intelligence
can store memory, but it is not the basis of memory which is intelligence. Intelligence is the basis of memory; memory
is not the basis of intelligence. Steven: So, would you agree that we could
try to get the best of both worlds... Sadhguru: Which... Where are the two worlds, I am living in...
only in one, which is the other one? Where are you from? Where are you, are you talking to me from
Mars or something? Steven: I am talking about my lab (Sadhguru
laughs) and the machines and the rational approach. But linking it to the phenomenology to as
you say the memory, the experience and indeed that we may be have been ignoring it too much,
right... Sadhguru: See in your lab... Steven, in your lab, is there any instrument
which is finer than the human mechanism that you are? Steven: No. Sadhguru: Then why are you using crude instruments
instead of using the... using the finest instrument that you have? Steven: I am trying to combine them. Sadhguru: Why? Steven: (Laughs) Because... so, what you are
saying is… Sadhguru: No, no, no, no, there's nothing
no-because. The only reason is, you... we have all gone
through an education system, which doesn't trust the finest instrument on the planet. Moderator: So, I wanted to ask this question,
because I face this a lot, Steven. Especially when I talk to neurologists and
my own friends and colleagues, because they don't experience this, they doubt it, they
doubt whether this actually exists, right, the consciousness or the intelligence part
that Sadhguru is talking about. The science is all about reproduce(e)ability
and repeatability showing that again and again… Sadhguru: Well, human beings are repeating
themselves for generations. Isn't that good enough (Laughs)? Moderator: ____ (Unclear) because they want
to see that as traditional data form, but because we don't have any instruments as of
now to say that or show that or given as a power-point presentation. But there are millions of people who're experiencing
this and talking about the same thing, why don't we trust that in scientific world? Because the first question I face is, "Oh,
there's no data, what you're talking is all nonsense." So (Sadhguru laughs) again that... you are
very open to it. That's why I'm asking you this question, why
do we go with this so-called definition of science that you know, keeps on saying, "It's
not seen outside. I can't demonstrate." But we can put ourselves into that state and
experience, because there are lot of people who're talking about it. So, I am not sure why we don't account for
it. Steven: And I think you're right, we should
listen more to... and I think if we want as neurologists, you, anesthesiologists or psychiatrists,
so we need to link back to that subjective experience, whatever you call it. Umm, now I think and that's what I am trying
to say to combine the best of both worlds and approaches that if we only go with experience,
and... well, maybe we could be limited or may be plain wrong... (Overlapping conversation) Sadhguru: No, not with... not with one person's
experience. If it is repeated in 10,000 people, is it
good enough? Steven: Well, I will be here... the scientists
saying it's not good enough, because maybe 10,000 people, a million people, billions
of people could somehow have false beliefs, right, it could be... (Overlapping conversation) Sadhguru: No, no, no. We're not talking about belief, unconnected
people. See if a belief you need flock. Unconnected people, you can check hundred
people who are not connected with each other, if... if we put a certain input, if the same
thing is happening in all the hundred different people, is it not... is that not repeatable
proof? Steven: Yes! Sadhguru: Right now, do... is there any scientific
evidence that you are alive? Steven: It's... The definition of life is actually still challenging
for us (Sadhguru laughs) right? I think it's, it’s... "What is matter? How does it organizes in life and _____ (Unclear)”
is the big question. So, I am following you in this importance
of what these... whatever the number is, people are experiencing and that we really should
be carefully listening to that. And sometimes I feel when talking to people
like you who have… Sadhguru: Can I say... can I say something
Steven? I'm... I'm not saying you should listen to me. It is not necessary to listen to me, because
if you listen to me, it's just hearsay. I'm saying something, it may be a bloody lie,
who knows? All right? I am not asking you to go by my word. I am just saying, if you do certain thing,
and those results happen to you, then that is true, isn't it? You don't have to believe what I say. I am saying all of us, we are here, how did...
how are we here? The basic thing is our parents have given
us what they have given us and we became that, and now we gather our own thing in our own
experiences and complex... make it much more complex. This is how we are living. So, what is the proof of this? There is... Living is a substantial proof, because it's
there, it's been repeated for million generations. So, it can't be questioned. So right now, the instruments that you have
in the lab, whatever you said 90's, the instrument that you had in 90's, and the instruments
that you have now, are they very different, more sophisticated? Steven: They're better, they always get better. Sadhguru: They always getting better. So even today what you're using definitely
not good enough instruments, maybe in another twenty years they'll get much better. So, I'm saying, aren't we denying ourselves
the fundamental nature of life itself, simply because our instruments are not up to the
mark? As you already said and everybody will agree
that human mechanism right now is the most sophisticated piece of technology on the planet. So, should we not learn to use it? Beyond our thought, beyond our emotion, beyond
our identities, beyond our prejudices, if you learn to use it, then this will clearly
tell us what is what, because this is the most competent machine that's out here. Steven: Yes. And yet I am trying to imagine a world where
we would all be Sadhgurus. Right? Imagine… Sadhguru: You're... You're talking about a very... very competitive
world for me (Laughter). Steven: Yes, it's your work/world(?). So, I chose at one point in my life not to
become neither a priest or a guru or a philosopher, but a scientist and then to use that as a
medical doctor. And I'm still happy with that choice, because
I do think and I believe you will agree that the scientific knowledge and the technology
and modern medicine has really incredibly improved our quality of life and our life
expectancy and that's very important, we appreciate. So, I am very happy that there are these scientists
and that we have the technological advances. But at the same time, I think we should try
to find some and reconnect to the spirituality or the pure experience as you say, would you
agree with that, that it's this kind of balance? Sadhguru: See it is like this – if you take
a motorcycle mechanic, he is very good with the motorcycles, let's say, but now you ask
him to fix a computer. Well, he can use his screwdriver and open
the cover. Beyond that, he doesn't know a thing about
it. All right? This is just like this. Objective sciences are like this. It is always one plus one is two. That's the only way objectivity can work. You cannot say one plu... one plus one is
eleven also, forget about a million. All right? You cannot say that, because this is the nature
of objective... objectivity, and our objectivity is coming from our intellectual process. Intellectual process, as again I said already,
it's coming from memory. So memory cannot be fudged. If you fudge the memory, it's a mess. I remember, this is one and this is one. And now I put these two things together and
say this is two. Now, this has a memory basis. If I fudge this, then my intellect becomes
useless. All right? So, intellect is handling one aspect of our
life, which essentially we call it as self-preservation. For our self-preservation, our intellect is
vital. Without it, we cannot function. Right now, all the things that you said, it
has improved our life expectancy, it en... enhanced our life in so many ways, no. It has not enhanced the quality of our life
at all. It has only enhanced the comfort and convenience
levels in the world, and definitely life expectancy. All this is definitely self-preservation,
isn't it? It's survival process. So, when it comes to self-preserve... self-preservation,
our intellect is vital. Without this one functioning, you cannot survive
in this world. All the five senses are function... functioning,
they are feeding the data into your intellect, and from there you're using it, how efficiently
you use it will determine how efficiently you survive. So, your life expectancy enhanced means your
efficiency of survival has increased. That's all it is. So, you are more healthy than what people
were in the past, I don't think so, but suppose we are, it simply means your survival process
is little more efficient. So, leaving the survival process, now you're
talking about consciousness. Consciousness means, see the English word
'consciousness' is very loosely used. If you say somebody is in anesthesia, if they
come back you say, "Oh, he's come back to his consciousness." No, he is conscious, because there are no
alternate words, we use the same words. Language is a different aspect. Language is also a product of our intellect. So, it can only talk in opposites. Without polarities there is no language, without
polarities your intellect cannot function, but when you talk about consciousness, you
are not talking about two polarities. There is no a... A-consciousness and B-consciousness, there's
no positive consciousness and negative consciousness, there's just one. So, what doesn't have a polarity cannot be
dissected with your intellect. Intellect is a sharp instrument; it can only
dissect. It cannot absorb something. See, if you are using your intellect upon
something, if you ask any human being, "Do you want your intellect sharp or blunt?" they
will say, "I want it sharp." Why? Because it's a cutting instrument. If your cutting instrument, if your knife
is not sharp, what is the use of such a knife? So now you want to stitch your clothes, but
you try to stitch that also with your knife, then all you have is tatters. Th... That is showing, almost everybody is wearing
tatters around the world today (Laughs). You see everybody's pants are torn. I don't know, you are... I'm not seeing the whole of you (Laughs). Steven: It’s very good. Sadhguru: If you're wearing... if you're blue
denims, it'll be torn (Laughs). So, you're using your intellect to handle
a subjective dimension of life. That's never going to happen, simply because
you're using a telescope to look at the virus – it's not going to work. Steven: Mhmm, mhmm, Okay. Moderator: Steven, while you're here thinking
about it, I thought I'll bring in a relevant point because you have remarked in some of
your lectures that you made a historical mistake by calling consciousness as a binary term,
right? Yes or no? And then with your experiments and also your
attempts to recover patients in coma, with the instruments that you've had, now you've
recorded at least four or five distinct states of consciousness or wakefulness, if you want
to call that. Sadhguru's saying consciousness is one, there
is no polarity to it, so how do you reconcile these? So, again the term comes back to consciousness
term, just call it wakefulness or whatever. You are in all these guiding... guideline
committees, you're like the president of many of these committees. Can we even change that as just wakefulness
and leave it at there because it's so … Steven: So, we're... Thank you for that question Bala. We are definitely struggling. And I think we have no definition of consciousness
that we all agree upon, what we try to work on are somehow practical measures that...
well, you and I as clinicians when we say, "The patient is unconscious," what do we mean? What is the language we speak? And we will there reduce this complexity to
first of all wakefulness… the first dimension. And that's what you've seen and what we all
experience when we fall asleep. When you make them fall asleep during anesthesia,
they somehow seem to lose awareness of their environment and then their self. During sleep there is already this notorious
exception, when we dream, and I think that’s fascinating and there is lucid dreaming and
illustrating the challenge to... for us as observers saying meaningful things about awareness
in another person. And then these patients as you say in coma
who can no longer be awakened and that's simply looked at from the outside as looking at eye-opening,
they will never open the eyes even when we stimulate them and then observing their behavior
which is then reduced to reflexes, but it's true that when you talk about... when you
think about it... it's frustrating and that is exactly why I started this research because
I was not satisfied with how as a clinician I could say meaningful things about consciousness,
the mind, subjectivity, while the only thing I'm doing at the bedside is making inferences
based on some motor activity and the absence of proof, is there not always proof of the
absence. So, to me it seemed as a historical error
that we had this black and white view that the patients we see with severe brain damage
were... are conscious or not. And now we see all these more nuanced states,
like you can be more or less awake, you can be more or less awake and we described these
very strange conditions where patients survive, eyes open, but completely unaware, that we
called vegetative state, we are now calling them unresponsive-wakefulness and then some
of these are minimally conscious which again is very frustrating because you can't communicate
with them, but you know that sometimes they have, very probably, when we look of these
brain imaging techniques, functioning brain and hence a functioning mind that can perceive
emotions including pain and... So I am trying to be a little bit more precise
about what we consider as awareness of the environment, of the self, and how we can link
it to brain networks which is what we try to do with this global neuronal work space
in the front and the back and trying to capture it by all possible means to help clinicians,
reduce the uncertainty and have prognostic value, but it's still a tremendous challenge
to go from there, and they are still I think descriptive and they have a big practical
value, but I am not satisfied in terms of the explanatory power because they are truly
to explain how we are having these wonderful discussion and I am thinking that I know for
sure some things in my mind now, but how this happens to me is still a big challenge. And as you know we also listen to patients
who had coma and we felt they were fully unconscious but afterwards they tell us they had these
wonderful experiences called near-death experiences. Very, very intense, very, very positive, often,
but not always, seeing themselves from the outside, this notion of light and for some
this is proof of life after death. I think it's a challenge because death is
still a big, big barrier for science to study, but all of that somehow makes me more humble
and look at everything with a little bit more of the amazement from… Well I... despite all my theoretical knowledge,
I am not able to explain this and will we ever? Well, there to me it seems very interesting
that the scientific community links to this community of what I would call the athletes
of the mind, right, and that is also why I myself try to do meditation, so that I maybe
can experience this a little bit better and maybe we can compare it... Bala and Sadhguru, to... my initial area of
research was sleep and dreaming, and I dream a lot and then to me it's easier to connect,
but my supervisor at that time, very rarely remembered his dreams, and so his approach
was very different and so imagine that I would have no dream, never, how could I even with
the best possible theoretical knowledge understand dreams? It's I think important that we have the experience
and the memory as Sadhguru said, to really get to an understanding. Or imagine I would be a scientist looking
at color vision, but me myself would only see in black and white. So even the most perfect understanding of
color from a theoretical perspective in this color-blind scientist, wouldn't it be different
the day I would truly see in color? So, that's the kind of frustration I have,
when talking with big experts, who have, I don't know how many ten thousands of hours
of meditation and I know you are a very expert meditation yourself and I'm just this little
athlete right, trying to understand what you mean when you talking about all these different
states and nuances. And so, you're right, I see consciousness
not even as black or white or on this gray scale, but try to all the colors of the rainbow
and it's so multidimensional that it's very different... difficult for us to collapse
it, to reduce it and to grasp the wholeliness of the experience. Sadhguru: If I can say something, can I? Moderator: Yes, Sadhguru. Sadhguru: See Steven, as we sit here, this
is my body, that is your body – distinctly established. Right now it is one-hundred percent like this. I don't know what you're drinking, I can't
see, but whatever you're drinking, what's in the cup is not you. The moment you drink it after some time it
becomes you. This is happening right now. So though, what you think is your body and
what I think is my body is just a piece of this planet, right now it is distinctly clear,
this is my body, that is your body – hundred percent. This is my mind and that is your mind, this
is my... these are my emotions and those are your emotions, these are my experiences, those
are your experiences. But there is no such thing as my consciousness
and your consciousness. This is a living consciousness. We blew our own bubble. I'm sure you have... that little wonderful
boy who came on the screen, I'm sure he's blowing soap bubbles at you some time. So if you blow a soap bubble, this is my bubble,
that's your bubble. Puup it went, then there is no such thing
as my bubble and your bubble, there's no such thing as my air and your air. Consciousness is just like this. Right now you have blown your bubble, I have
blown my bubble. This is me, that is you. But when this goes puup, there is no such
thing as my consciousness and your consciousness. It is just that we are holding a certain amount
of... if you want to call it as consciousness, I would prefer to call it as life, because
the word consciousness as you're speaking I'm seeing, that even last time when we spoke
to all Bala's friends, what I see is – wakefulness and consciousness, there is no clear distinction
in medical terminology. See everything that you do with your anesthesia
has nothing to do with consciousness, it has something to do with body and various functions
of the body. You're shutting down certain aspects of the
bodily functions. One of them is transmission of pain, which
is the main interest when somebody's going to surgery. You don't want to stop their heart, you don't
want to stop their brain, you would like to see the transmission of pain stops. Whatever is being cut is being cut, whatever
damage or fixing is... that is happening is happening, whatever parts of the body may
be being removed, what is not vital may be being pulled out. All that is happening. Only transmission of pain is not happening. This has got nothing to do with losing consciousness
and gaining consciousness, there's no such thing. So we're using the word wakefulness and consciousness
in a little different way. And not only that, especially... not just
in medical terminology, generally in English language, there is no distinction between
"Somebody is unconscious" and "He became conscious" and 'consciousness' as a larger possibility. So, my body, your body, my intellig... my
mind, your mind, my memory, your memory, my experiences, your experience – all different. But there is no such thing as my consciousness
and your consciousness. It is just that it is only the human creature
on this planet who has the neurological capability and sophistication of mechanism that if they
allow it, they can access this dimension of consciousness. No other creature is really capable of accessing
it. This doesn't mean there is no consciousness
in them. Without that, the life process wouldn't happen. There is... there is consciousness even where
there is no body, all right? Only thing is, you need a certain sophisticated
instrument to access that, which is the human mechanism. This is why we consider being human is a great
privilege, because you have access to dimensions beyond your physical boundaries. That is the fundamental significance of being
human. So, let us not misunderstand the instrument
and what we see, if you take a telescope and see, you saw another galaxy, but the galaxy
is not produced by the telescope. The galaxy is there. The telescope only gave you an access. Similarly, your body, your brain, whatever
– I don't want to identify different things. From your hair to your toes, everything is
body as far as I'm concerned, including your brain. It is just another dimension of the body. So, this body if we keep it in a certain way,
if we do not contaminate it with too many ideas, philosophies, identities, if you keep
it in a certain level of openness, this will become an access point to what we are referring
to as consciousness, or the basis of the life that we are, in a way. So somebody can call it consciousness, somebody
can call it a being, somebody says this is God. Well, we can use as much vocabulary as you
want. Essentially, we are trying to put a meaning
on something which cannot be defined, which has no meaning. Meaning is a consequence of human psychological
process; psychological process is a consequence of accumulated memory. So you cannot slap one meaning from your mind
upon a limitless possibility, which is the very basis of our existence. So this is what is the fundamental mistake
that we are trying to take a piece of our psychological process and trying to understand
what is consciousness. Consciousness is not something that you can
understand. Understand means, there must be a meaning. There is no meaning to it. There is no meaning to the existence. It's just a tremendous phenomena, but you
can experience it. You have the necessary instruments to experience
it. Not the instruments in your lab – you as
a person, you have the necessary instrument to experience this. Will you allow it or not, is the only question. As I said in the beginning, it all depends
on how you are identified. If your identifications are limited, you have
lost the ability to experience it. If your identity is, you know, n... not identified
with anyking (anything?) you kept yourself loose like that, then there is a possibility
of experiencing it. A whole lot of people under drug-induced conditions,
they are claiming they experience many things. I'm not questioning that at all, it's very
much possible, because one thing that I've seen happening to people under the influence
of alcohol or drug is, they've lost their sense of identity. What they think they are usually is not there
in them, they've become little boundary-less. Because of that, they might have acce... accessed
a certain dimension, but will that make them competent to access it whenever they want? No, hundred percent not. In fact, they may lose their faculties because
they forced it upon... chemically forced something to happen, so that may not... that may damage
the instrument for good and you may not be able to experience anything beyond a certain
point. Steven: Can I ask you two questions? Sadhguru: Yes, sir. Steven: So you mentioned this instrument that
permits us to access this, whatever we call it consciousness, intelligence. But you say it's for humans, so what do you
think about animals, and how they perceive the world? And then the second question is this terribly
challenging one. If you say that, somehow and you made the
comparison with the bubble and that there is no such thing as your consciousness, my
consciousness, it could be an illusion, so, how do we somehow deal with, well, what was
there before you were born and what will there be when you're dead? So, these two are still burning questions,
about animals and before and after this living. Sadhguru: See, when it comes to animals, an
animal is programmed in such a way that largely its life is fixed around its survival process. Let's say, for any creature for that matter,
their stomach is full, their life is settled. They just sit there happily. But that's not the nature of the human being. Stomach is empty, only one problem; stomach
is full, one hundred problems. This is the nature of the human being, because
survival is not the end game for us. Only when survival is taken care of, what
is human kicks in, till then we are also just one more creature. When we are absolutely hungry and survival
is in question, we are like any other creature. Human beings fight like any other creatures
when survival is in question. Only when those things are taken care of,
other dimensions of being human become a possibility. So, survival is not the end game for us; it
is the beginning for us. It is "A" of life, but for all other creatures,
survival is the endgame for us (them?). But even among them, certain creatures are
far more capable of accessing or at least being sensitive. I wouldn't say accessing, they are little
more sensitive to consciousness. Wherever there is consciousness, certain creatures
behave in a certain way. In India, in the yogic culture, in the Indian
mysticism, everywhere you see, there will be a cobra always. Simply because we've always seen, wherever
there is a little bit of, you know, access to consciousness, these creatures somehow
sense it and they arrive. What makes them sense it? One thing I'm guessing – this is not a certain
science for me, I'm just guessing – because they're stone deaf, I think they're super
alert on some other... in some other sense, they're very, very alert. This is a fact, this has been checked by a
few people. See for example, a cobra in Southern India,
it has no ears at all, no hearing mechanism. So it has got the whole body to the ground
and literally ear to the ground, you know (Laughs). So, if there is going to be an earthquake
in California, which is literally twelve hours away, that means, almost on the opposite side
of the planet. If there is going to be an earthquake in the
next two days or three days, this cobra will start behaving in a certain way. If you observe it carefully, if you have mastered
that observation sufficiently, you can clearly tell that there is going to be an earthquake
in approximately this kind of latitude. There are people who can do that by simply
observing the serpent, how it behaves, they say there is going to be this kind of movement
in some part of the planet. So, because any littlest... even the minutest
vibrations in the planet, it is able to sense. So, because of this, it has a certain awareness
or rather sensitivity to certain vibrations probably when somebody accesses what we are
referring to as consciousness, the other vibrations which are... normally everybody's throwing
out on a day-to-day basis, their physical stuff, their psychological stuff, probably
that becomes minimal. Lack of that reverberation is something that
a cobra senses. If you become very meditative... Well, it won't happen in Belgium because there
are no cobras there. But if you're in India, if you become me...
very meditative, you sit in a forest and become meditative, cobras will gather in front of
you. They will come and sit there as if they're
waiting for you. This is my personal experience any number
of times. And this is... this will be vouched for by
any number of yogis in the tradition always, because they're able to sense that lack of
vibration in the person. When the vibrations become very minimal or
very fine, somehow, they're drawn to that. I feel, for variety of reasons because of
m... in my experience – I don't want to go into the detail now, but in my experience,
all venomous creatures, those which create venom in their system, all of them are con...
are able to sense this. Probably, you know, I... I... I'm... I'm just doing guesswork here. It's just guesswork. See, some creature generates venom within
itself as a evolutionary process, probably because in some way his physical features
and things are such that without a deadly venom he wouldn't have survived. He's constantly threatened. So, because he's feeling so threatened, you...
it's also true in human beings. Those who are feeling always threatened, they
will carry lot of venom within themselves. So looking at human behavior, I'm just guessing,
maybe in the evolutionary process, because they don't have limbs... Let us say the snakes don't have limbs, they
don't have the same capabilities that other creatures have, so they might have developed
venom over a period of time, because otherwise they wouldn't have survived, otherwise they
wouldn't have got food to eat. Everything around them moves faster, but still
they manage to hunt and live only because of the venom that they carry. All venomous creatures, I've noticed this
with bees, you know the honeybees, the way they behave around me, many, many times I've
noticed is very strange. In the beginning when it happened, I couldn't
believe how these insects seem to be sensing something which nobody else... You know human beings don't know most of the
time, but they're able to see it. I've generally noticed this with all venomous
creatures, because to generate that venom, there is some special process going on within
them. From what I hear from other scientists, and
you know, people who are working in the field, they are saying venom is a... one of the most
complex proteins that are produced on the planet. And today, for various neurological ailments,
the experiments are going on how venom could be a solution in the future because... you
know, in my personal experience, consuming venom has done miracles to me in terms of
rejuvenating my body and doing things with myself in so many different ways. If you are n... I don't know if you and Bala not aware of
this, there are certain type of yogis who always carry these mountain scorpions, which
are almost like nine inches long, in a box. Once in a way, they will decide when, they
will take a sting from the scorpion. Your whole neurological system will jangle,
draaaannnn it'll go for twenty-four hours to forty-eight hours. It won't let you sleep, it will just keep
you up. And between pain and pleasure, there is very
little distinction. Once the neurological system gets tangled...
you know like jangled in a certain way, you can make it into pain, you can make it into
pleasure consciously. So they will cry, they will laugh, they will
cry, they will laugh, they will go through this for whole twenty-four to forty-eight
hours, because they are using the venom to just shake up the whole neurological system. So having said that, somewhere, certain creatures
have little more access to these things. They may not have access to consciousness,
but where there is access to consciousness, they're able to sense that. In my understanding or I would rather say
my presumption is that, that they're able to mark out those creatures or those bodies,
who are least amount of reverberations in them. Where there is least amount of reverberation,
it's like a little bit of a vacuum for them, so they're drawn towards that. And at the same time they will not harm that,
you know, that kind of reverberation because they feel very passive. Like, I don't know right now in the video
as I was watching it, there is a video where I'm holding a king cobra. Not by the head, but in the body – it is
not a pet cobra or something. We've just caught it three… two-three days
before that is being filmed there. And king cobra if it bites you, you have six
to eight minutes to live, that's it. It has enough venom to kill an elephant, but
it'll not bite. It all depends... If you show a little anxiety, it'll bite you. If you are just absolutely calm, it will not
touch you because it's going by the reverb that you generate. So, having said that, this consciousness,
as a dimension – Let's call it a dimension; Let's not call it as an experience of wakefulness
and sleep, different levels of wakefulness. Well, even when you're awake, not everybody's
awake to the same extent, isn't it? Suppose... you're teaching in a university,
right? Do you find all the students awake at (Laughs)...
to the same level (Laughs)? Steven: When I teach… when I teach… yes. Hyper-vigilant (Laughter). Moderator: He actually uses that analogy in
his lectures. Sadhguru: What? Moderator: He uses that analogy where he picks
his participants in a lecture... Sadhguru: Hmm. Moderator: ...and he analyzes and tells them,
you're not this much awake and you're this much awake and alert (Sadhguru laughs). _____ (Unclear). Sadhguru: So, no two human beings are awake
to the same extent. So this whole dimension... if we change the
terminology a little bit, probably it will fall into a little better place of understanding;
maybe not entirely, but little better. That is, right now when we talk about anesthesia
or even coma for that matter, they may be very similar. I don't know medically how you differentiate
between the two. Essentially, bodily functions have dropped
step-by-step. In one person, a certain number of functions
might have dropped, in another person it might have dropped further. And I will take it further, even what you
call as death is just further drop in the bodily functions. So whether it is death, coma, anesthesia,
in my understanding and my experience of things, they're not very different. It is just different levels of profoundness
of the same thing. When you become completely unawake, that means
you're dead. You're little bit awake means you're in coma,
you're a little more awake means you're under the influence of anesthesia, little more awake
means you just had a drink (Laughs). Steven: You’re experienced, but you've not
yet died. Sadhguru: Let's not go into that now. We'll go into it some other day because you...
you... Are you in Brussels huh? Steven: Yes. Close to Brussels. Sadhguru: Okay, so unless... unless you serve
me French Fries, I'm not going to talk all those things to you right now (Laughter). Steven: I will offer you French Fries and
Belgium chocolate. Sadhguru: Well, about... When you said before being born and after
the death, process has happened. See, death is a social thing. It is not existentially right to say 'death',
because a certain life, like I sa... we were talking about bubbles as an analogy, let's
continue that bubble. So right now, you've blown that big bubble. This bubble has a material, the soap. Depending upon the soap quality, the tenacity
of the bubble and how long it lasts is determined by the type of soap and the quality of soap
and whatever. So, this soap or this structure for this is
what we're traditionally referring to as karma. What karma means is accumulated memory, which
is giving us a shape and a form. So as long as this karmic memory is there,
it will contain this life inside. So right now, let's say you were born as this
big bubble, but this time around, you really made some efforts and made this into a this
big bubble – possible. So suppose now... let me not take you as an
example, let's say I die. Okay, it's easy for me to die (Laughs). So, i... if I die right now, well, I leave
the body here because the body is just what we have collected from this planet, it has
to go back. It's just a material that you picked up to
walk through this planet, to do activity in this planet, but the life that you are is
still contained in your karmic bubble. Life itself is not yours, that we are referring
to as consciousness or life is not yours. It is always there, but you have captured
this much. Depending upon how much life you capture... See, it is not just about the data, it's not
about the intelligence, depending upon how much life you capture, accordingly the significance
of your life will be determined by that. When I say significance, you as a life – not
socially significant, not significant in the world. That is just a consequence. In certain times, people may recognize that
significance, in another time they may not recognize. If you came here thousand years ago and you
say, "I'm a neurologist," they will said... they'll just dismiss you, "Can you wield a
sword or not?" That's all they would ask you in ber... Brussels, all right? If you cannot, you're out. So I'm saying today in twenty-first century,
you being a neurologist is important, because there is a situation. It's... it's a consequence of time. So let's not take that activity as the basis. But the profoundness of your experience is
determined by how much life you have captured, how significant you feel when you sit here,
not in the context of society, not with reference to somebody else, not comparing myself to
somebody and saying I'm bigger than somebody, but when you simply sit here, this is why
closing eyes is so important. When you close your eyes, you've shut off
the world. When you sit here, what is the significance
of your existence? This is determined by how much life you capture. So the entire yogic system or one important
dimension of yogic system, is to see how I capture more life into this one, so that if
I sit here this is a very significant life. Whether others will understand the significance,
whether the significance will find expression in the world or not, these are subject to
variety of outside realities. But in your experience, you are phenomenally
significant because you captured such an immense possibility of life. So once this happens, now it is held together
by this karmic bubble, or let us say it's a kind of a software. Most of the software may be gathered unconsciously,
but it is a certain kind of software which holds this together. Even if we die, the body gets left here, discerning
mind goes with the body, rest of the information and this is already there. But now because there is no discerning mind,
this bubble cannot go where it wants to go. Now, it will just go by its tendencies. It's very beautifully described, in the yogic
culture we call these tendencies as vasanas. The word vasana literally means smell. So it depends what kind of smell it has, accordingly,
it gets drawn to certain things, accordingly, it will draw certain things towards itself,
depending upon how vibrant this karma is, accordingly it stays in a limbo for that kind
of period. If it is already become very feeble, it will
try to find another form... physical form. If it is not become feeble, it exists by itself
for a certain period of time. When I say a period of time, when we're in
the body... See right now, for you to know what, how long
we've been sitting here, you don't have to look at your watch. You just ask your lower back, it will tell
you how long you've been sitting here. Or you ask your urinary bladder, it'll tell
you how long you've been sitting here. So body's keeping time. Time is a concern for us only because we have
a physical body. If we did not have a physical body, we can
sit here for 10,000 years, there's no problem. So once you don't have a physical body, the
time-space experience is not the same. But still, the experience of being pleasant
or unpleasant is still there. There's a whole dimension to this. I think Bala you must se... send Steven, the
Death Book. I just published a book on death, it's been
a eight-year work, and it's just come out. And I'll ask Bala to send it to you or we
can send it from UK probably. Steven: Thank you. Moderator: Steven so, couple of questions
to Sadhguru, right? So, what determines Sadhguru: I hope I've not said something very
unscientific that keeps you (Laughs)... Steven: Oh… oh…oh, yes you did, oh, yes
you did... (Laughs). Sadhguru: That was the idea. Steven: That's why I'm here (Laughter). Sadhguru: That was the idea (Laughs). Moderator: What determines how much life we
capture, Sadhguru? Sadhguru: One thing is, you must have enough
software, that means you must have enough karma. So most of the time, people are trying to
avoid karma. When I say avoid karma, people are trying
to minimize their imprints in life, in so many ways, as to what they take in. Suppose, let's say, I don't like you Bala. That's not a fact. I'm just telling you as an example. Suppose I really don't like you, I just can't
stand you, so what will I do? I will avoid you. This means what? I'm trying to avoid some nasty impressions
that may come upon me, if I meet you. Now you're avoiding karmic material. So this is why in yoga we say, you ahh...
you... somebody comes and says, "I don't like this
person," then I put those two people in the same department, so that every day they build
some karma and learn to transcend (Laughs) that. This is not a social process. There is an internal process to this, that
you're taking in imprints, but not reacting to it. Because your experience becomes beautiful
or nasty depending upon how you react to it. So first and fore... most fundamental training that you need to
go through is, you learn to respond, not react. Reaction is instinctive, react in... reaction
is based on past memory and conclusions that we have made. Response is happening out of your conscious
response right now. So you learn to respond, not react. Once you learn to respond and not react, you
will take a tremendous amount of material because you have no hesitation about every...
anything for that matter. Once you have so much karmic substance, now
you can blow a big bubble. You need good soap to make a big bubble, not
air. There's no dearth for air, there's a whole
bubble of atmosphere out here. But what you need is a certain tenacious soap,
which will blow a big bubble for you. Otherwise, if you have... no I don't want
to name any brand. Some brand came to my mind (Laughs). If you have a bad soap, only this big bubble
will come. If you try to make this, it'll go putt. So if you want to blow a big bubble, what
is needed is not air because air is anyway there. Tch, at least in the context of who we are,
it is a limitless amount of air. It is not really limitless, but still it is
limitless and from the context of our lungs at least, it's quite limitless. So, there is limitless amount of air, there
is limitless amount of life and consciousness in the universe. But the question is, do you have the necessary
quality soap to blow it big and hold it? So you don't avoid anything. When... when something outside of you does
not determine the nature of your experience, that is when you're willing to take on everything. When something outside of you makes you either
happy or unhappy, you will try to choose only those things which give you pleasant experiences. Those things which give you unpleasant experiences,
you will try to shun. So if you really look at in the world, most
people, if you look at people's experiences in the world, most people can't stand almost
the entire humanity. Their neighbor means, must stop there only
(Gestures). Friend means till here (Gestures), but he
must stop here. If he crosses this line, there'll be trouble. Well, a spouse means here (Gestures), if they
cross that, there'll be trouble. A child means here (Gestures), but if he crosses
that, that also will be trouble. I'm saying for everybody, there is a boundary. If they cross that boundary, there is trouble. So in a way, if you really look at it, actually
nobody is hundred percent okay with anybody. So, this is the fundamental thing we need
to change. People are trying to teach this in roundabout
ways, they're saying you must love everybody. You tried, it doesn't work. People say you must be compassionate, be this,
be that. All you're trying to do is, that you are not
in a state of reaction, but you will consciously respond. Or in other words, you want to make your experience
of life so pleasant within yourself, no matter who comes, how nasty they are, it will not
cause nasty experiences within you. Once you have this insurance that somebody
else and something else, either a person or a situation, cannot sour the experience of
who you are, only then you're truly open to every kind of experience. Now you have a super soap, you can blow a
very big bubble (Laughs). Steven: But... can I ask something? Sadhguru: Yes, sir. Steven: Is that... So you would advise somehow that meditation
can help us blow the bigger bubble? Sadhguru: See once again, this is a very vague
term in English language. When you say meditation, if somebody sits
here with eyes closed, in English language we say he's meditating. But with eyes closed, we can do many things. We can do japa, tapa, dharana, dhyana, samadhi,
shoonya, samyama, or you may just, as you know, in the universities they have mastered
the art of sleeping in vertical postures (Laughs). No, no, not in your class. No, no (Laughs)... So they may be horizontal in your programs
(Laughs). That's what I meant. Steven: _____ (Unclear) So it's true. But then it becomes... the term meditation
becomes kind of meaningless is what you're saying, because it’s _____ (Unclear). Sadhguru: It is not specific, it's generally
saying something. So, let us say you're chanting something,
people say that's also meditation. No, that's called japa. Japa, if you do it in another form, the same
chanting, it's called tapa, because tapa is used to generate heat in the body. What you were talking about Tibetan monks,
most of them are doing tapa, because they're using it in a certain way to generate heat
in the system. Because, if you generate a certain kind of
prana or life energy in a certain form, which is called as samath prana if you generate
that, body generates enormous amount of heat. And this heat is not just as temperature,
it's called ushna, it activates a certain level of perception. It... it makes you very healthy. It can... it'll allow you to lea... live with
very minimal amount of food and water. All these capabilities will come because your
samath prana or samana prana is high. That is what generally they are trying to
do. They're trying to do tapa. So that is... you want to call that meditation? No, it is tapa. If you do the same thing with a different
tilt to it, it becomes japa. If you do dharana, that means you're focused
on something, you're concentrating on something, that's called dharana. So, if there are... if there is you and there
is something else, an object, and you're very well focused and you and object are connected,
that means it's dharana. So, you are so focused, one of you disappeared,
either you disappeared or the object of focus disappeared, it is either just the object
or just you, it is merged into one, in your experience, then we call this dhyana. Suppose, both disappeared, the observer and
that which is observed, both disappeared and there's an explosion of energy, this we called
as dhyana. Samadhi is called something else and... I'm sorry that is called samadhi and further
samyama – there are various other aspects like this. So I don't want to go into all that stuff. But fundamentally, the word meditation is
not saying anything particular. So if we have to put a definition to that,
what I would say is meditation is a certain quality, it is not an act. It is not an act that you perform. It's like fragrance of a flower. The fragrance is a consequence, but because
today the world has be... humanity has become so goal-oriented, they want the consequence. They're always aiming towards the consequence. No, you cannot create the consequence. If you do the process properly, consequence
happens. Right now, you... we have eaten well, we are
breathing and everything is fine, so life is happening, in a way, our experience of
life is a consequence. We are alive because of a consequence of various
processes that we are doing right. If you do any of those things wrong, the consequence
of experience of life will not be there. So similarly meditation is a consequence,
it is a quality. It cannot be done, but it can be made to happen. If you crea... if you cultivate your body,
if you cultivate your thought process, if you cultivate your emotion and your energies
to a certain level of maturity, you become meditative. It is not like in the morning, evening you
do... meditate, not like that. You become meditative, as a quality you carry
it with you. So, if we want to further technically define
this, essentially, I would say, because I'm assuming meditation means dhyana, it is an
assumption, because somewhere you have to fix it, otherwise it's all over the place. If you call it as dhyana, that means if you
sit here, in your experience clearly, the body's here, your mind is here, what is you
is somewhere else. This cl... three clear distinct identities,
that means there is a distinct separation or space between what is you and what you
have gathered in your life. Once this space is there, this is the end
of suffering, because there are only two kinds of suffering in human life, physical suffering
and mental suffering. Once there is a distance between you and the
body, between you and the mind, this is the end of suffering. Once there is no fear of suffering, that is
when you will naturally access what we are referring to as consciousness or chitta, because
now you have no fear of suffering. Once there is no fear of suffering, you are
willing to clin... climb any peak. It's only the fear of suffering which curtails
a human being. Once this possibility of suffering is taken
away from you, you would also like to go and see how hell looks, what hell looks like,
because anyway you cannot suffer. Actually Gautama said this. When people were all talking about going to
heaven, attaining to this, he said, "You say in heaven everything is wonderful. What will I do there? In hell everybody's suffering, let me go there
and see what I can do, because anyway I cannot suffer." So, once there is no fear of suffering, you
walk full stride in your life. Otherwise, no matter how adventurous people
think they are, they are only half a step all the time because the fear of suffering
is always lurking in their minds. Steven: Sadhguru, do you think that the patients
I see in my consultation who are suffering, they have migraine, headaches, anxiety, depression,
that they could benefit from meditation? And as now is very popular in Western countries,
this mindfulness techniques? Sadhguru: They're already suffering because
their minds are too full (Laughs). They need to come to... they need to come
to some sense of abandon, you know? So, each person may be in different level
of development, it's not like a general prescription I can make. But, becoming meditative will it help? Absolutely. But can you make them meditative in a clinic? I doubt that, because you can't suddenly make
them meditative. Some people may, some people may be ready
for it and it may happen. But can you make everybody meditative, a doctor
can make somebody meditative with just a few instructions? No, because it will need a certain amount
of induction. They have all the ingredients for it to happen,
but still it doesn't happen because there's no induction. So there needs to be a some charge for them
to, you know, get into that place. Somebody may be ready for japa, somebody may
be ready for tapa, somebody may be ready for dhyana, dharana. This is an evaluation that has to be made
for each individual. If suppose I met somebody, they are twenty
years of age, I may teach them something. The same person, he practiced for three-four
years, he was feeling great, and then he gave it up for whatever reasons. Now at forty years of age he comes, now I
will teach him something totally different, because he is not the same person anymore. He may think he's the same person, but he
is not the same person anymore because everything has changed – his perception, his experiences,
his accumulations, everything have changed. So, accordingly, one has to do this. This is the... this has always been the traditional
significance of having a live guru, so that he will mix the right cocktail for you, otherwise
there is no punch. Steven: Thank you. I will go do my yoga (Laughs). Sadhguru: Don't tell me now (Laughter). Moderator: It has been a very fascinating
discussion. I can go on and on, I have so many burning
questions. But I think it's been more than hour-and-a-half. So, I would like to wrap up. At least one thing I'd like to see is Steven
do is, at least bring into discussion about using the term wakefulness as a way of different
levels of wakefulness in your practice and in neurology world and then leave consciousness
out completely, in that way probably you can explain so many things in your lab and what
you are finding and how you have been successful in restoring some of the comatose patients
back to their normal lives. So thank you so much for doing your work. And also being open to explore this aspect
with Sadhguru and us, you know, it's just… there is so much more, he is an ocean by himself. Sadhguru: As you... as your lab... as your
lab machines improve, one day you may be able to raise the dead, hmm? Because it's just another... another level
of wakefulness and sleep (Laughs). Steven: Like my favorite philosopher says,
James Bond, "Never say never." Sadhguru: I didn't think you're English, hmm
(Laughter)? Moderator: He's married to a Canadian psychologist. Sadhguru: After the Brex... after the Brexit,
you must change your philosopher, okay (Laughter)? Thank you. Thank you, Steven. Wonderful. Steven: Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Sadhguru: Bala, thank you very much. Moderator: Thank you Sadhguru.
What was the final outcome? Do they think it exists?
Are we still us though? Are you still aware? Do we go anywhere bad?
Would you private message me?
Do you think we go somewhere bad when we die?like evil people or people that have struggled? Do you think there’s bad?