Sadhguru: Sushupti means it is a dreamless
state, but there are dimensions of consciousness that you are aware of. The neurological system in the body, if we
have a way of monitoring that, I think the entire art of anesthesia could raise to a
different level at a very minimum interference. When you disengage with memory, suddenly there
is no past, present and future. So there is no time. Because there is no time, there is no space. Facilitator (Bala): So, I will… I will tell you why this started. Two years ago we were in a conversation with
Sadhguru, and I asked him, "We all know that anesthesia works but we really don't know
how it works and can you… can you shed some light on it?" And he talked to me briefly and then he said
a statement which is, "Anesthesia…" – correct me if I'm wrong Sadhguru, because sometimes
I may be wrong, if I'm quoting you specifically – "Anesthesia cannot touch consciousness,
it can only take away memory." I was blown away by that answer because that's
not the way we think consciousness of, and maybe I thought… several days I've had sleepless
nights thinking about, maybe it's time for us to redefine the term consciousness itself. And having gone through several programs with
him, I think I'd some glimpses here and there to know that there is much more than what
we know of. That's how this started, and so Emery, you
are the one who's been doing a lot of work in this area, so you can probably start off
telling me what we know now of how anesthesia actually causes loss of consciousness. Emery N. Brown: Okay, so I'll start. And so again it's a… it's a pleasure to
share the stage with Sadhguru and with Nichol. So, you know how does anesthesia work… Actually how many people here had anesthesia
(Participants gesture) (Laughter)? Sadhguru: Oh! Emery N. Brown: Great topic right, yeah, right,
right. Sadhguru: Lot of clients out there (Laughs). Emery N. Brown: Exactly, right, all right,
all right, fantastic (Laughs)! So, what happened to you? You know, some people say we turn the brain
off or we… you know, we make you unconscious, we put you in a coma, but I think though… So, we've tried to really understand what's
happened, and we've done this by doing a number of studies in humans as well as in animals. So, I'll just give you the quick back-of-the-envelope
way to think about it. When you take the anesthesia drugs, or when
they're given to you by the anesthesiologists, the brain isn't turned off. You know, it's not like all of a sudden the
switch flips. If you look at what happens to the brain,
it's actually on a highly, highly dynamic state. The actual circuits in the brain are oscillating,
they're creating waves, and to give you some sense of this, if you look at my hands like
this (Gestures) and they're oscillating now, this is the way your brain is in a normal
state of – forgive me – consciousness, right (Laughter), all right? As I understand in my little, limited way,
all right, all right? But then what happens is, the drugs take over
the circuits (Gestures) and now the circuits oscillate like this and as long as you keep
the drugs, they are there doing that (Gestures). Now what does that mean (Gestures)? It means that if this brain area was communicating
with that brain area so that you could be conscious, it can no longer do that. When you turn the drugs off (Gestures), the
brain returns… as long as you keep the drugs on it, it does this (Gestures), it creates
these oscillations. It's very much like this YouTube video, which
I'm sure some of you've seen, where you have a bridge in Tacoma, Washington – I don't
know if you've seen this, the bridge in Tacoma, Washington, and all of a sudden it starts
to oscillate in a perfect sine wave (Gestures) just like this (Gestures) and no traffic can
go across the bridge. It's the same thing that happens under anesthesia. And what happens is that these oscillations,
because they are so strong, they take over the brain, they're not natural. And you know one… one of the things that
Bala mentioned was that after anesthesia our brains often don't work the way they did beforehand. So, now you can see if you've been in a state
like this (Gestures) for four hours, six hours, eight hours and… you know, look, I got my
ARP card about twelve years ago myself, so, I'm in that category too, right (Laughter)? You know, you can understand why your brain
may not work, all right? So, and basically that's it, and what's good
about that, what's good about what I'm telling you is that we as anesthesiologists can see
this state. We can see it on the EEG of patients in the
operating room, and we can use it to change the way we deliver our drugs, that's the practical…
the practical implication of this. And then the other practical implication of
it is that, as we take anesthesia seriously – in other words, don't say, "Oh, we just
give you drugs and you go away and you come back" – as we take it seriously and study
it, then we can start interacting with our neurology colleagues and make links between
problems that they're working on. We can actually begin to have conversations
with, you know, distinguished individuals like… like Sadhguru who can help us understand
what is it we're actually doing on a deeper level. But we haven't taken what we do seriously,
in terms of how… what's happening in the brain, we're not in that position, and that's
why I'd like to think that we're trying to move the you know, the research now to…
in other words, use anesthesia… the study of anesthesia to help us connect with some
of these deeper ideas about the brain, the mind and also the consciousness. Facilitator (Bala): Emery, do you have any
thoughts on that? Do you have any thoughts on how we are … Emery N. Brown: How we are connecting anesthesia
to the… What we work on as neurologists or what I
work on is very related and very connected, in that we're trying to understand how patients
who lose consciousness because they've had a structural brain injury or a cardiac arrest
or some other kind of problem, can re-establish the process of a conscious state in a brain
that's been injured, and what are the rules of the recovery, and what are the ways in
which it can happen and what are the limitations, and how do people get stuck along the way,
and could we help them. And it turns out that there is a lot of, you
know, variation. Facilitator (Bala): Sadhguru. Sadhguru: Oh. Namaskaram. Dr. Brown and Dr. Schiff, highly accomplished
doctors in their areas of proficiency, but I'm completely unschooled (Laughs). So… because for me, the only way I know
anything I know is from my own experience. So, my language and my expression could be
a bit abrasive or if it seems abrasive, please pardon me, because I'm nearly illiterate,
okay (Laughs)? So this… first of all, the nature of the
language that we are speaking – I'm talking about the English language – this language
is very good for describing and defining external things, but is very limited when it comes
to internal dimensions of many aspects of who we are. So, if we have to use yogic terminology for
this, what you are referring to as consciousness is considered as jagruti – that means wakefulness. We do not consider wakefulness as consciousness. Wakefulness is the state of the body. Wakefulness is the state of the mind. Wakefulness is the state of the bio-energies
within us, but that's not consciousness. What you are seeing as physical body… Well, one thing I would like to clarify is
– we do not look as (at?) brain as a very significant aspect, because we see intelligence
is right across the system. Generally, in most people's understanding
I believe, a combination of memory and intelligence is considered as mind. Am I right on this? If you take this as a definition, it is a
fact that every cell in our body carries millions-of-fold much more memory than the entire brain can
carry. Because these cells in the body remember even
what happened a million years ago. It remembers the skin tone of your forefathers
from a million years, nothing has changed. It never gets confused. So what you can carry in the brain as conscious
memory compared to what every cell or every DNA is carrying is phenomenally more, and
the chemical dimension of what is being conducted in every cell is far more complex than you
could ever figure with your entire brain. So, both in terms of intelligence and memory,
the spread is much more. I think this entire focus on brain has come
mainly because somewhere, probably pre-renaissance time we broke into this because that region
ja… largely we're talking about Europe, where it was hugely dominated by very dogmatic
belief systems. When people broke through that, nobody was
supposed to think for themselves – everything was already said and done. When people broke through that and started
thinking for themselves, thinking little freely looked like absolute liberation for those
people. And I think that hangover still lasts in our
education systems, in our medical sciences, in the very way we are approaching even fundamental
sciences, that hangover, that thought is everything, is very profoundly influencing our social
structure and our way of exploration. In (Laughs)… In the yogic sciences, we don't attach any
significance to your thought. Whatever you are thinking, it's of no consequence
to me. This is why I… whatever somebody is saying,
we don't listen to them (Laughter/Applause), we… we just feel them. We just feel them – what is their chemistry,
what is their… how they are right now. I don't care what they are saying. This is how (Laughs)… maybe it's an evolutionary
problem with me, because I've been in jungles by myself and I have seen, most creatures
judge you just like this. I've (Laughs)… You know, I think they showed a picture of
me handling a king cobra, I've been very closely involved with all kinds of creatures, particularly
cobras and things – their sense of our chemistry is so keen. You can just go in the wild and just pick
up a cobra. As you saw, I'm not holding him by his head. He is not a pet cobra, he is a king cobra
(Few laugh). If he bites you, he won't give you more than
twenty to forty minutes before you are done. But I'm just picking him up like this (Gestures),
he will do nothing, because he is feeling my chemistry. If I show little agitation, he'll go for me
(Laughter). If… If I am just okay, he's fine with me. So we don't attach any significance to thought,
because thought is recycling of the data that we have already gathered. No thought can come which is absolutely fresh
– permutations and combinations of the data that we already have. Right now, lot of people coming up to me,
very fearfully and saying, "Sadhguru, this artificial intelligence is coming. If they come, they will take over the world." I said, "If they take over and run the damn
thing, you're on a holiday, isn't it?" (Laughter/Applause). But it is a fact that everything that we can
gather as information, analyze and express and use it in many ways, all these things,
machines will be doing it better than us in the next ten to fifteen years' time. Everything that is data-based processing,
machines will do way better than us. So there is this fear. I think it's a very good time, this is the
time we need to explore an intelligence beyond intellect. Because we have become so intellectual, we
have become so brain-oriented in our approach to everything. As you rightly said, nothing is really turned
off, we've just broken the communication. After all, the purpose is to go through something
which is generally extremely painful without pain – that is how the entire anesthetic
science has come up. So, you're just breaking the communication
and that's not happening. It serves that purpose. So being wakeful and being conscious are two
different things. This is described like this. For wakefulness, we have a word called jagruti. Jagruti means you are awake. If ten people – let's say we take sample
of ten people – they all fell asleep – don't do it, okay (Few laugh) – they all fell
asleep and they came awake. When they come awake, all of them will not
be equally awake. One person may be instantly awake, another
person may two… took…. take two minutes – as you have noticed with
anesthesia also. Emery N. Brown: For sure. Sadhguru: Another person will take an hour
to wake up. Another person needs a strong coffee, otherwise
she won't wake up (Laughter). Am I right (Laughter)? Like this. Different levels of wakefulness is also there. Professors must have noticed (Gestures) (Laughter). Emery N. Brown: Yes (Laughter). Nicholas D. Schiff: In fact the first few
minutes of the day can be like that. Sadhguru: Different levels of wake… wakefulness
in a classroom (Laughs). So this is jagruti. So we are calling wakefulness as consciousness
– no. The next dimension of consciousness is called
swapna. This means a dream state. A dream state is far more vivid than wakeful
state for most human beings. It's like going to a cinema. If you go to a cinema, the key factor of the
impact of the cinema on you, is turning off the lights. This is something most people don't understand
(Laughs). If you don't turn off the lights, cinema will
be no good. It doesn't matter how well it's made. Turn on the lights and watch the cinema, you
will see a great cinema becomes nothing. So turning off the lights is important. So turning off the lights in our experience
is the eyelids. You down the shutters, the world is off. Now you start your own world. So, dream state is like a cinema. It's far more impactful. People love their cinema stars more than the
people that they have lived with for twenty-five years (Laughter). But they have not even seen them. All they saw was play of light and sound. But that is far more impactful simply because
lights are off. So, eyelid is that, if you roll it down, lights
should be off, world should be closed. But right now, the problem is, this mental
faculty has not been taken charge of, so it's running wild all the time with eyes closed. So this dream state is considered a more powerful
state than jagruti. Jagruti or wakefulness is important for performing
action in the world. But for human consciousness, in terms of profoundness
of experience, dream is always more profound than walking on the street. Yes? Most of you have experienced this. The next state is called as Sushupti. Sushupti means it is a dreamless state, but
there are dimensions of consciousness that you are aware of. It's a totally dreamless sleep state, but
you are aware. There is no picturization, there is no video
running in your mind, there are no pictures, there are no people, there are no words, but
you are conscious in your sleep. This is a very powerful state if you really
want to manifest something in your life, this is something to be explored. And the next one is called as Turya. This is consciousness, where there is no memory
involved of any kind. Essentially in the yogic sciences, we are
looking at consciousness as an intelligence beyond memory. If there is memory, memory is considered a
boundary, in the sense – this is one person, this is another person, simply because this
embodies one kind of memory and that embodies another kind of memory. This has become one kind of person, this has
become… become another kind of person. Essentially, it is in the memory. Memory does not mean just what I remember
and you remember. Genetic memory is there, evolutionary memory
is there, elemental memory is there, atomic memory is there, karmic memory is there, inarticulate
and articulate memories are there. But generally we are thinking, memory means
consciously what we can remember. But today, if we eat dog food, we'll not become
dogs. Something within us remembers, no matter what
you eat, this has to be only transformed into a human being. It doesn't matter what you eat. If you and a cow everyday eat a mango, no
merger will happen. Perfect memory is established, evolutionary
memory is absolute. So these different dimensions of memory are
playing on a daily basis. People are thinking their thoughts are free
(Laughs). It's a joke (Laughter). Because your memory is determining everything. So, largely in one single word, we call this
karma. Karma means the residual impact of all the
memory that you have. How it is impacting every thought, every emotion,
every action, the very way you sit and stand. See, if you… if you see somebody walking
far away, let's say half a mile away you see someone walking, if he is your friend, just
the way they are moving their body you say, "Oh, that's him." There are seven billion plus people. But this particular man walks in a unique
way (Laughs). All right? Just two-leg walking, everybody walks, but
still it is so unique. So, this is what we are referring to as karma,
that the residual impact of memory, varieties of memory, we rec… recognize memory as eight
basic forms of memory which are determining how you are right now. The very way you sit, stand, breathe, understand,
perceive life, is determined by this memory. But there is an intelligence beyond memory
which we call as turya or chitta. This is consciousness. Now, every one of us is conscious. The question is only of degree. Even a rock is conscious, a dog is conscious,
a pig is conscious. The question is only of degree, how conscious? Even among us, how conscious is different
from person to person. So this degree of consciousness determines
everything. Now, if we have to give an analogy, what is
memory is like – I am sure every one of us at some stage in our life, I don't know
if you are still doing it, we blew soap bubbles, did you? Hello? Come on! Everybody raised their hand for anesthesia
(Laughter). Did you do soap bubbles? So when you blow a soap bubble, the soap part
of it which is very little, just a tiny drop, the large part of it is air that it captures. So, how big a bubble? When you were children, who can blow the biggest
bubble was a big deal. And it's a certain amount of technique… Emery N. Brown: Yes. Sadhguru: …how you do it (Laughs). Somebody blew this (Gestures) big bubble,
somebody got only this (Gestures) much. So how big a bubble – this bubble is like
this, the kind of soap and how it gathers is your memory. It forms a… It gives it a form. But when the memory bursts, there is no such
thing as your air and my air. There is no such thing as your consciousness
and my consciousness. There is something called as your body and
my body. There is something called as your memory and
my memory. There is something called as your intellect
and my intellect. But there is nothing called as your consciousness
and my consciousness. How much of it did you capture, how big is
your bubble will determine the scale of your life. The scale and possibilities of your life are
determined by how big a bubble did you blow. Emery N. Brown: Okay (Laughter/Applause). Nicholas D. Schiff: Well, let me pose you
a question, Sadhguru. So we can perhaps work as individuals to – now
that I know I take away wakefulness and not consciousness, right – make to move towards
consciousness… Sadhguru: Mhmm (Indicating agreement). Nicholas D. Schiff: …and that's an individual's
decision to maybe train in this particular way. So is there some way that we can harness these
insights like you have? Harness these misunderstanding, and use it
as anesthesiologists to take care of patients, because if we can reduce it to or if we can
adapt it, I shouldn't say reduce, we can adapt it in that way, you know, that would be very,
very helpful because we would be using the powers in a way that would control – have
to use the word – the brain, in a way that would be perhaps more, more physiologic? Sadhguru: I'm not the expert in the subject,
but because you're asking me the question, I'll say something (Laughs), but you are the
expert in anesthesiology, is it? Nicholas D. Schiff: Yeah. Sadhguru: I am sorry (Laughs). I… In my simple understanding, anesthesia as
a process has come into being in this world or is existing right now, because there is
pain. Pain, when it happens to us is a bad thing,
nobody wants pain. But at the same time, if there was no pain,
most people would not even know how to preserve their own body. See wherever there is no pain, in how many
ways they've cut it (Laughter). Suppose there was no pain in your nose, they
would've cut it in various shapes (Laughter) – this is part of the fashion. If there was no pain at all, believe me, they
would have pulled out the intestines and swing it on the street and go (Laughter). You have any doubt about that? Nicholas D. Schiff: None whatsoever (Laughter/Applause). Sadhguru: So essentially, because there is
pain in the body, and pain is a protective mechanism, because most human beings still
don't have the necessary intelligence even to preserve themselves. If there was no pain… Even if a bicycle comes, people step back
– don't think this is out of civilization, consequence of pain (Few laugh). If there was no pain, even if a truck comes
they would just walk (Laughter). Yes, they would. So because of pain. So pain is essentially a protective mechanism
for us. Without it, people wouldn't know how to stay
alive, how to stay in one piece. They would've cut themselves into pieces. So… But sometimes, as what is called as a surgery,
is in some way cutting people up. Nicholas D. Schiff: Sure. Sadhguru: So you… it has become a necessity
to cut someone – how to cut them with minimum amount of disturbance to the system, that's
the whole effort. So in this effort as you said, essentially
you are disengaging different parts of the brain. I don't know if it's an exact science or it's
generally getting disengaged. Whichever way it is, it is getting effectively
disengaged, that people go through surgeries without even knowing what happened when something
major was done to them. Their ribs were opened up and… ribcage was
opened up, heart was opened up, brain was opened up – they don't even know what happened. Very innocently, they wake up after a day
or so, whatever amount of time. So this is anesthesia. How could we use… See one… one dimension, because when…
when you… when we were speaking in the room, when you said, essentially – if I'm wrong
please correct me – you're monitoring the physiological systems of heartbeat, blood
pressure and temperature and… Nicholas D. Schiff: Brainwaves. Sadhguru: …whatever else, the physiological
factors. If – I don't know if it's even a possibility,
but if – if you find a way to monitor the neurological system ignoring the physiological
system completely… See, the concern may be, the moment you put
somebody on the table and start opening the body, the concern of a doctor or a surgeon
may be that you don't want him dead on the table. So you're watching his heartbeat, you're watching
his pulse and you are watching his… all the other parameters. I understand and appreciate that concern,
but instead of… okay, let's leave the physiological monitoring as it is, but if we have a way
– I don't know if there is a way in the medical science – if we monitor the neurological
system, not just the brain, the neurological system in the body, if we have a way of monitoring
that, I think the entire art of anesthesia could raise to a different level at a very
minimum interference. It could happen, because… why I'm saying
this is, there is something called as marma in yoga, and also in… what is called as
Kalari in south India, it's a certain form of martial art. Marma is a way of creating… killing the
pain completely at certain moments when we want, just by touching certain parts of the
body, handling body in a certain way. So essentially, what we are doing is – the
neurological system, we're shutting it off, and there is no pain at all. We can go ahead and do what we have to do,
and only when we release it, the pain will come back. So using that as a basis, I'm saying, if medical
science has a way of monitoring the neurological impulse as it's happening, and if there is
some way to introduced… introduce anesthetics in whatever form that you use – I don't
know all the cocktails that are used – but if it is done properly, probably – I'm just
guessing, I'm not an expert on this – probably, with two percent or three percent of your
medicine, you could still have the same effect on the patient, because how you use any medicine
on the body and how you use it on the neurological system, I would say, one percent of what you
use on the muscle if you use it on the nerve it would produce equal affect. Nicholas D. Schiff: But it's interesting,
because I think what you are saying has contact also with the work that we do in the recovery
phase, and there are people now looking very carefully at cardiac and brain interactions. And they do signal some of these changes,
and it's suggestive, I mean that maybe more… more of the body could be engaged in the way
we think and measure. And that makes lot of sense to me actually. Emery N. Brown: Can I ask you another question? Sadhguru: Mhmm (Indicating agreement) Emery N. Brown: (Laughs) So I did a little
reading about you (Laughter). And
he's not as uneducated as he would have you believe. See, he's actually quite… quite ___ (Unclear
– educated?), that's pretty clear (Laughter/Applause). And I was curious, because I think it was
back in 1982, when you had like your first enlightenment experience, I think (Few laugh)
and... There's a story here. So you mentioned how it seemed like only ten
or fifteen minutes had gone by, but what had happened is that you had been in this state
for like maybe four hours or so, when you actually looked... when you came to and looked
at your watch. The analogy is, this is what people under
anesthesia report all the time. In other words, they have this sense that
no time has passed. Sadhguru: You were not around that day (Laughter). Nicholas D. Schiff: Maybe I'm reaching. But they report a very similar phenomena,
you know that, it seems like they wake up sometimes from anesthesia and they’ll go,
you know, "Have you started yet?" "You're done?" They are actually quite surprised. So whatever our time-keeping mechanism is
right, it's actually it's different from sleep. It's noticeably different from sleep, because
often when you sleep – except for some rare instances – you... you have a sense of,
you know, time has passed, you know, you went to sleep, you woke up, you know, you may not
be able to judge it exactly. But characteristically, under anesthesia,
when people come to, they feel like no time has passed. Any thoughts? Sadhguru: Mhmm (Indicating agreement). See our sense of time – the only way human
beings know time is by the cyclical movement of things that are happening. If the earth spins once, we call it a day. If the moon goes around the earth, we call
it a month. If the planet goes around the sun, we call
it a year, or if the clock goes around, we call it an hour. So only by cyclical movements we know time. What cyclical movement means is… All physical dimensions of the existence from
atomic to cosmic exists only because of cyclical movements. Anything physical in the universe is naturally
cyclical. So the entire yogic process is just about
this, how to transcend the cyclical movement of our existence because cyclical movement
means, we are going in circles. If I tell somebody, "You are going in circles,"
what does it mean? It means you are not getting anywhere (Few
laugh). So this is the fundamental ethos, that once
you're attached to cyclical movements of life, you're not really getting anywhere, but it
feels like you are going somewhere. Today everybody knows this experience, because
most of them walk only on the treadmills (Laughter/Applause). I was… I was in conversation with Ed Begley, who
is an environmentalist and he said, "If somebody from another planet comes here, some aliens
come here and see, we drive to the gymnasium and then cycle inside the gymnasium on a stationary
bicycle, they… what will they think" (Laughter)? So cyclical movement signifies physical existence. Physical existence – as today, fundamental
physics is talking about it – forever the yogic sciences have been saying this – it
is a miniscule of the larger space. It is just some 0.000… some percentage,
negligible percentage all of us together, and the planet and the universe and everything. The physical universe is just way below one
percent of the cosmic space. That is true even with the individual atom. Even in the individual atom, the substance
is way below one percent. So this miniscule is our engagement. How I see, in my experience, is it's only
the footprint. We are so engaged with the footprint. You… this is… you know, I have been in
the jungles of South India for long periods of time. At one time, I was involved in tiger census. So for days on end we followed the tiger's
footprints. We saw only the footprint, we've not seen
a damn tiger (Laughter). So till you see the tiger, by footprints whatever
imagination you have, tiger breaks it for you – when it growls at you, it's all gone. All the… You know, you studied the footprint, you thought
you understood, and how he does things, his behavior – everything you understood by
his footprints, how he moves, what he does, but when you see him, all this knowledge you
gather vanishes in one moment (Laughter). Fortunately he didn't make breakfast out of
you. But even just seeing him, everything vanished. So right now, we are just studying the footprint. Consciousness – the remaining 99. whatever percentage that is there in the atom,
that's there in the cosmos, this is consciousness. An atom has con… captured a miniscule of
consciousness. You and me have captured the largest amount
compared to any other creature on this planet. That's why we are at the peak of evolution,
that we have cap… captured the largest. But time, we know only because of our involvement
with cyclical movements. Once there is no cyclical movement, or in
some way, if you get disengaged with the physicality of your existence… When I say physicality, everything that's
physical about you is accumulated over a period of time, isn't it? It's an accumulation. Now everything that's mental about you, is
also accumulated – the content, I'm saying. The framework may be there, but the content
is all accumulated. What you accumulate cannot be you, isn't it? It can be yours, but it can never be you. So once there is a little disengagement with
the physicality of what you have gathered, suddenly there is no sense of time nor space. What is now is then, what is then is now. What is here is there, what is there is here. Everything gets like this. It's very beautifully expressed, the Adiyogi,
the first yogi, over 15,000 years ago, he said this. People, his disciples quizzing him, asking
(Laughs), "What is the nature of this existence? Where does the cosmos begin, where does it
end?" He laughs at them and says, "I can pack your
cosmos into a mustard seed" (Few laugh). Emery N. Brown: Wow. So… so just make sure we understand (Laughter). If I understand the experience that you had
that Emery was asking about, and perhaps the experience that might not be passed through
the memory and language of the patient, and anesthesia from this point of view, would
be one in which it's outside of time, maybe interior, as it's said in the video, but space
has sort of a time-like aspect, where present and future are in the same distance. Is that kind of a restatement in any way? Sadhguru: This is a… this… This could seem contradictory to what is generally
believed in fundamental physics. Modern physics is looking at space and time,
the yogic sciences look at only time. There is only time. There is no space. Because there is time, there is a consequence
of space. If there was no time, there would be no space. So time is the basic, not space. Space is an illusion that's been created because
we are engaged with our physical natures. So if you disengage with your physical nature,
suddenly there is no time. So there is no space. So suddenly what is here is there, what is
there is here. People think something miraculous has happened. Nothing miraculous happened, it is just that
you kept your accumulations aside for a moment, that's all. What you accumulated and who you are, sat
separately. The very basic program what we're teaching
as Inner Engineering is just this, what we're training people for is, if they sit down here,
body is here (Gestures), what you call as your mind is somewhere else, what is you seems
to be little away. Once there is a little space between you and
your body, between you and your mind, suddenly there is no time. Once there is no time, there is no space. There is no possibility of space. This needs to be understood. We have a common word both for time and space. We call it kala. Kala means time, kala also means emptiness. So emptiness means space. So this hall is empty, that means there is
space here. We say when the hall is full, we say there
is no space here. That's what we mean in a simplistic way. But the same word is employed both for time
and space, because space is bred by the time. If there is no time, there is no space. Right now, we are understanding time as cyclical
movements. So we are looking at time in two different
dimensions – Kala and Mahakala – the greater time. The greater time has no cyclical movements. Cyclical movement is because of physical nature. Because of physical nature, there is time
in terms of birth and death, in terms of initiation and expiry of everything that happens. Every atom, every electron, every proton somewhere
has a age. Even the very planets and the solar system
and the sun has a age. Some time it has begun and some time it's
going to end. Whether it's going to be a bang or it peters
out is (Laughs)… is something we can debate. But physicality is not perpetual. It begins and ends. Because of that, we are looking at time in
that sense. But there is time beyond cyclical nature. This, we call mahakala. Is there some logical way of explaining it
– no. It is just that when you disengage with physical
nature, which is the main purpose of yoga, because otherwise you're… when you're engaged
with your physical nature, you are engaged with your memory. Your body is just memory, variety of memory. Eight different dimensions, we are talking. Whether we say eight or four or one, it doesn't
matter. This has taken a particular form only because
of memory. It is functioning in a particular way only
because of memory. So when we disengage with physical form, we
are disengaging with memory absolutely. When you disengage with memory, suddenly there
is no past, present and future. So there is no time. Because there is no time, there is no space,
there is no distance, there is no possibility of this and that. Emery N. Brown: Since I have you here (Laughter/Applause)… Sadhguru: I am yours. Emery N. Brown: Thank you. Sadhguru: Professor sir. Emery N. Brown: No. No, no, no, no (Laughter). The world has lot of problems, all right,
and you know, one of the things that we need to solve, we were talking about some of this,
you know, just as we were sitting down there before the program started… Sadhguru: Can I correct that question a little
bit, sir? Emery N. Brown: Sure. Sadhguru: The world doesn't have too many
problems, it has only one problem – human beings (Laughter/Applause). Emery N. Brown: So if we could focus on that
one issue (Laughter), all right – what do we do? How do we use like the insights, the understanding,
the enlightenment that you have, to go after some of these issues, because they are very
real and they threaten us. Sadhguru: See, by every definition that we
have made, we have defined ourselves as the most intelligent creatures on the planet. These are all our definitions. I don't know if the insects agree with us
(Laughter). But by our own definitions, we are the most
intelligent of the species. So our understanding is, right now, whoever
dominates must be most intelligent. So for which we are paying a lot of price. Whoever is right now in domination, is the
most intelligent. If you go by that, we are the most intelligent. Maybe we are the most intellectual, yes, of
all the creatures, but we are not the most intelligent, because we don't even know what
to eat after these millions of years (Few laugh). Hello? Even now research is going on what is the
best thing to eat (Few laugh). If you put something in front of your dog,
one sniff, he knows whether to eat or not to eat (Laughter/Applause). So this is mainly because this is a new happening. This cerebral activity is a new happening. We are a bit too excited. Just like, you know, people are all engaged
with their smartphones all the time (Gestures) (Laughter). They're walking like this everywhere. They are not looking at the sunrise. Even that they look in the phone screen (Laughter). They look at the whole cosmos in their phone
screen, because the instrument is new. Next generation may not even look at it, probably. Right now, it's new. Everybody is engaged with it, and they are
calling it a smart phone. Generally, someone will refer to someone else
as smart when they find that person is smarter than them, right? So, unfortunately, for a whole lot of people,
the phone is the smartest thing about them (Laughter). So this is a new gadget (Gestures). This… You should know more about these things, if
you have the right names for this. Emery N. Brown: The brain (Laughter)? Sadhguru: No, in the brain, this cerebral
development. Emery N. Brown: The cerebral cortex, and…Yes,
yes. Sadhguru: Yes. This is a new happening. So we are little excited about this. This can boom, boom, boom you know, they've
all those figures of blue lights flying all over the place, and we are excited about those
things. But fundamentally, intelligence always has
been, all right? It might have found expression in the form
of thought, which gave us the capability of language and many other arts and music and
things. It gave us various capabilities. There is no question about that. So only a very few, very small percentage
of people used it that way. Rest of the people are using their intellect
just to freak the hell out of themselves (Laughter). You're only handling injuries or you're also
handling people going off? Nicholas D. Schiff: I'm… You know, I only do neurology (Laughter). I'm not board certified in psychiatry, if
that's your question. Sadhguru: If they are neurotic, you don't
deal with them? Nicholas D. Schiff: Not trained for that. Not professionally trained. Sadhguru: They all come to… Lot of people come to me (Laughter). You're lucky. So this is essentially like you have a new
gadget, but you have not read the user's manual. You're doing something with it (Gestures). Human suffering that you see, peo… human
beings are suffering on various levels. As a doctor, you are probably seeing physical
suffering in terms of ailments and surgeries and whatever they go through – injuries
and stuff. But I am seeing a different level of suffering
– people who have no ailment to complain about, but they suffer deeply. People without any ailments suffer far more
than people with ailments – at least if you have a ailment, you have a good excuse
(Laughter). Most people don't have an excuse. Simply sitting, standing, they suffer. They've… Everybody has found a reason. Why? Somebody is suffering because they are poor,
they're suffering their poverty. You make them rich, they'll suffer the taxes
(Laughter). They are not educated, they couldn't get into
the school, they will suffer. Get them into the school, you have seen them
suffering here (Laughter). Into the best school they will get in and
suffer. They are not married, they suffer. Get them married… (Laughter/Applause). So they are not suffering their life. This is something that needs to be understood. They are not suffering their life. If you ask them what they are suffering, they
are capable of suffering what happened ten years ago. Yes or no? Ten years ago something happened, they can
still suffer. And they are capable of suffering what may
happen day after tomorrow, already (Few laugh). So essentially, their suffering is not about
life, they are suffering two fantastic faculties that only human beings have. No other creature has such a vivid sense of
memory as we have. No other creature has the kind of fantastic
sense of imagination that we have. They are suffering their memory and their
imagination. They are not suffering their life, isn't it? They are only suffering their memory and their
imagination. If you take away part of their brain, you
definitely know which part it is (Laughter). If you take out some part of their brain,
whatever that part, they will all sit very peacefully, maybe even happy, I don't know
(Laughter). Because I find… You know I… I just met a lady, a few months ago. I was in Mysore, my hometown. I just went to visit someone. And I was just entering a building. A very… A very small built old lady, maybe she is
over seventy-five. She came smiling at me so sweetly and just
asked me, "How are you?" I said, "Ma'am, I am well! How are you?" And then I went up. I did… I never forget faces, but this is not a face
that I know. Then I went up, and after half an hour, I
came down, again she came to me with a very sweet smile and she said, "How are you" (Laughter)? I thought okay, and then I said, "Okay, I
am doing well. How are you doing?" Then somebody came and said, "Poor lady, she's
just lost her memory." But I said, "It seems to have done wonders
to her" (Laughter). She is just so exuberant and joyful (Few laugh). So a whole lot of people, a whole lot of people,
when they lose their faculties, they become better. This is the unfortunate nature of our existence,
that our capabilities have become our problems. If our incapability is our problem, that is
understandable. But when our capabilities become our problem,
we are heading for a disaster. Yes or no? This is a tremendous capability – this cerebral
development is a tremendous capability, but now that is what we are suffering. Our fantastic sense of memory and imagination,
we are suffering this. And no wonder, so many people are losing their
memory because many, many times in their lives, consciously, unconsciously, they are wishing
they could forget something. And they will forget one day. When they forget, suddenly it becomes an ailment,
but they were always wishing for it. Every day, a whole lot of human beings are
continuously wishing and praying, "I wish I can forget this." But when they forget it, then they become
a case. So, this dimension of what we are looking
at, is not about forgetting, it is not about reducing your thing… See every day, people are taking their own
anesthesia. They call it whiskey, they call it wine, they
call it their own thing. They kind of… you know, just dull your memory,
dull your imagination, simply sit there, it feels peaceful. Next day morning, again everything is back
anyway, unless you have a hangover (Laughter). But people have found their own ways of anesthesia,
and people are using many things of course, more advanced developments have happened in
that level of anesthesia also, in recent times (Laughs). So essentially, whether you pray, "I want
to forget all these things and live happily," or you drank a glass of wine or you doped
yourself or you're on LSD or you put them on anesthesia, essentially, they are all moving
in the same direction. You doing it for a specific purpose, for a
limited period of time, but they are trying to do it to their life. And one day, when they lose their memory,
in a way unfortunately, they have succeeded their intent. This is the misfortune. Because people are driving themselves towards
that. They… People are trying to think… I mean, today in the world, people think there
is something called as sanity and insanity. There is no real line there. It's a line that you manage by yourself, with
your own discipline and your own perception. Is there really a line called sanity and insanity,
tell me? Emery N. Brown: Is there (Laughter)? Sadhguru: See now, it's like this, what you
think is normal, somebody else thinks is crazy. Is it not happening all the time? Older generation thinks younger generation
is crazy. Younger generation thinks old people are for
sure lost their marbles (Laughter). Everybody is making these judgments. One culture thinks another culture is crazy. So it is just a line that we artificially
create and manage, because we know if we cross that, we will not be able to control ourselves. Even when people get angry, the term that
they use is always, "I am getting mad." So they know it (Laughter). So they know that they've crossed their line. The line is not same for everybody. What is my line and what is somebody else's
line is… different places people have drawn their lines. Somebody thinks it's all right, once in a
way, at least three times a day, I shout at somebody, it's okay. If I ever shout at somebody, then I will withdraw
probably for many years because such a thing cannot happen. If it happens, I've lost it. So what is your line, where is your line is
something that you have drawn. There is no existential line, that this is
sanity, this is insanity. There is no such thing. The question is just this, if you are in control
of your ment… mental faculties, this is called sanity. If you are not in control of your mental faculties,
this is called insanity. Suppose, right now, I'll… we can make an
experiment with all of them, can we? Participants: Sure. Sadhguru: I'll give you ten seconds. Next ten seconds, nobody… you sho… simple
thing what you have to do is, you can think of anything in the universe you want. Only thing is don't think of monkeys for the
next ten seconds (Laughter). Okay, ten seconds, no monkeys (Few laugh). You'll count millions of only monkeys (Laughter). So, our faculties are not totally in control. The question is only how crazy are you (Few
laugh). Okay? You are little more crazy than me, that's
about it. But there is no such thing as somebody is
absolutely sane and somebody is absolutely insane. What means a lot to me looks like insanity
to somebody else. Is it not happening every day? What means a world to you, somebody else thinks
this is insanity. What means a world to them, you may think,
it's insanity. All kinds of things are being done in the
world, and it looks perfectly normal for that person, it's only others who are making this
judgment, that he is insane. Only thing is, if what is out of control goes
to a point where it causes active harm to himself or to people around him, then we are
diagnose him… diagnosing him as totally insane. Emery N. Brown: But there has to be some sort
of agreement – and I'll just call it that – so that we can have a functional social
structure. All right? Sadhguru: So you are saying sanity is a social
thing… Emery N. Brown: I am asking. I am afraid to assert here. Sadhguru: No, no, it is… it is so. See, even in terms of sanity and insanity,
what is crime and what is not, is a social thing, isn't it? It's a very social thing. So when we are talking about social things,
social things keep on evolving from generation to generation, it keeps changing. What you think… thought was wrong has become
right, what you thought was right has become wrong. In one generation it happens, isn't it? So social realities we don't have to debate,
because it's a flux that all of us create. What… It's… It's called… generally called culture. Culture is not some… something that dropped
upon us. What mess we create today is tomorrow's culture. What the previous generations did, they did
not do everything consciously. They did some mess. That's our culture right now (Laughs). Emery N. Brown: So… so… Okay so if I understand the answer, it's a
very hopeful answer. Because no matter how bad things look, they
present to us as a problem we can solve, is that… in the next generation, is that sort
of the point (Few laugh)? Sadhguru: You have teenage children or something
(Laughter)? I am not trying to define that. All I am saying is, do what you want, you
cannot define this, because as you said, it's a social process. Social process, today we are democratic countries,
so it's decided by the majority as to what is right. What… What majority decides may not always be a
perfect solution, but we have agreed that if the majority says this, we do that – right
or wrong, works or doesn't work, we do just that when the majority says that, at least
with certain aspects of life. With certain other aspects, we have retained
the authority in some kind of experts, let's say in anesthiology (anesthesiology?), if
you say something, maybe that's a right thing. Some… Let's say, somebody has come up just today,
he passed his medical exam and he's come, if he says, he will be put through thousand
tests. But if you say it, people will accept it,
simply because of a certain record and a certain reputation and whatever. But it may not always work. Reputation and records may not always work,
but we are looking at largely what works. So these are all social processes. Without going into that, when we talk about
anesthesia, when we talk about disengagement, or when we talk about meditativeness – this
word meditation in English language has to be cleared, because we have been going through
that. See the English word meditation does not say
anything specific. I know it's become a popular word, but it
doesn't describe anything in specific. If someone sits with their eyes closed, in
English language, we say they are meditating. See with eyes closed, there are many things
to do. You can do japa, tapa, dharana, dhyana, samadhi,
shoonya, samyama. There are many, many things, or you might
have just mastered the art of sleeping in vertical postures (Laughter). You know, it happens in the universities,
in spiritual programs, in… (Laughter). People learn to sleep with their spine erect. So, meditation doesn't say anything specific. Somebody is focusing on something and they
think they are meditating. Somebody is uttering a mantra and they think
they are meditating. Somebody is thinking about something, and
they're saying they are meditating about something. Essentially, if we translate meditation as
dhyana, which is what generally… at least in India, what people believe when we say
the word meditation, people expect that you are speaking about what is called as dhyan
or dhyana or dhyanam, depending upon how far South you are. If you are up in the North, it is dhyan. If you come down, it becomes dhyana. If you come to Tamil Nadu, everything becomes
dhyanam (Laughter). So the same word, the same word went to China
and became chan, and somewhere else it became… and became zen. The same word. We are expecting when you say meditation,
you are talking about dhyana. If that is so, what dhyana means is, if you
sit here, there is a clear space between what is you and what is not you, in the sense,
what is you and what you accumulated – body you accumulated, content of the mind you accumulated
– if there is a little separation between these two, if you can maintain that awareness,
now we say you are in dhyana. So this is meditativeness. This is not something that you can ever do. If you create the right conditions, this will
happen as a consequence. It is like flowers in a plant. If you go sit in your garden and do flower
meditation, flowers are not going to come. If you want flowers, you need to handle the
soil, manure, water, sunlight. If you do these right things, flowers will
happen. Well, the soil doesn't look like a flower. Manure doesn't smell like a flower. Water or sunlight doesn't feel like a flower. But only if you do those things right, this
will happen. If you're… Right now, this whole thing has become convoluted,
because we have become such a goal-oriented society. That means we are interested in the consequence,
we are not interested in the process (Applause). Facilitator (Bala): So we have… We'll move onto the question-answers for audience
and also the researchers, here. Participant (Hitesh): We began this conversation
with the discussion of levels of consciousness of… maybe I'm taking this down to a lower
level that befits my character but… but I am wondering, one of the things Dr. Schiff,
you asked is, as people are recovering from certain kinds of processes, maybe they're
entering different states of consciousness that science has not yet, you know, learned
about. I'm wondering if that theory is necessary,
because we know about the plasticity of the brain… I think Bach-y-Rita is that the gentleman
who talks about plasticity of the brain and extraordinary things that the brain can do
to recover functions in different parts as… as it's damaged. That's one… and maybe that's a more technical
question. I… I have a larger question for Sadhguru. You spoke very eloquently about memory intellection,
asking us to put those aside. And I'm trying to understand exactly what
you mean, because I haven't caught it, I'm sorry to say. Because it seems to me, those are the unique
or extraordinary things about us as human beings, like the fact that we have this historical
memory going back to Mesopotamia and beyond, you know in India, thousands of years. And also as individual human beings, an intellection
which allows us to build spaceships in addition to sit here and listen to you. So I'm not quite sure how you mean for us
to leave those aside or… or place less value on them. Sadhguru: I did not talk about devaluing them
or leaving them aside. What do you think, is this planet round or
flat? Participant (Hitesh): I suspect it's quite
round. Sadhguru: Really? You suspect it's round, you're not sure? Participant (Hitesh): No, I think… Yes I am sure, it is round (Laughter), in
fact. In fact, I think that is how matter has to
conduct around gravity. Sadhguru: (Laughs) No, no. Don't go there, that's… gravity is another
thing (Laughter). But today we know it is round. Though if I walk up and down this place, in
my experience, it feels flat, but we know it is round. We debated this for thousands of years, all
right? But we couldn't figure it. But it became very clear to us only when we
took off. We created some distance from the planet,
you flew up there and looked, very clearly it looked round. You went and stood on the moon and looked
around, hundred percent it's clear, it's round. So, what gave you this clarity, is the distance. When you are in it, you thought any number
of ways but you couldn't figure it, but the moment you had distance, you had clarity. So only in that context, I said, you must
know how to keep your accumulations aside. If you are carrying a bag, when you don't
need it, you must be able to keep it aside. If all the time if you carry it, it will become
a torturous process. That's what is happening to people. Nothing wrong with your mind. It's just that all the time it's on and it's
becoming torturous. Not knowing how to do, they are sozzling it
out with alcohol or drug or something else. Essentially, they are unable to bear the activity
of their own mind, isn't it? If they could keep this bag aside for some
time, all they have accumulated, it would be nice. We… You won't lose it because nobody is going
to pick it up and go (Laughter). It's there for you, but once there's a little
distance, you have an absolute understanding of the nature of what it is. Only then you can handle it the way you want. Right now, you are handling both your body
and mind accidentally. Accidentally. When you do things accidently, anxiety is
normal, and that's what is happening, because everything is accidental. Because there is no clarity about anything. Because the nature of intellect is such… If I ask you, would you like your intellect
to be sharp or blunt, you must choose right now. I am going to bless you (Laughter). Sharp or blunt? Participants: Sharp. Sadhguru: Sharp. So you understand, intellect is a cutting
instrument, it's like a knife. The sharper the better. If somebody is very sharp we say, "Oh, he
is a razor sharp intellect" – very sharp. So cutting instrument… cutting instrument
can be used for dissection. With dissection, we know many things. Did you do science in your high school? You cut open that frog and saw how the heart
was pulsing? Heart… I mean the frog didn't think much about it
– that's another matter – but you came to know so many things in this world slicing
a human body, slicing a flower, slicing an atom, we discovered so many things. But is this a complete way of knowing? Can I know you by dissecting you fully? Is it possible? Maybe I will know you better by including
you, by engaging you, rather than dissecting you. By dissecting you, I may know your heart,
liver, kidney and spleen. But I will not know anything about you. Only by inclusion, I know. So, you are using a cutting instrument…
or let us say, you take your knife and try to sew your clothes, you will have tatters. So this is what is happening with approaching
everything intellectually. Everything is going into tatters. We are trying to sew with a knife, it's not
going to work. There are other dimensions of intelligence. We, in the yogic way of looking at things,
we look at human intelligence as sixteen parts. Out of the sixteen parts, to make it simpler,
we can make it into four categories. It's called buddhi, ahankara, manas and chitta. Buddhi means the intellect – this is the
front end. This is essentially a survival kit. Without your discriminatory intellect, you
wouldn't be able to survive on this planet. You have to discriminate. Now here, a deer came and here an elephant
came, you should know which way to go. Otherwise you won't survive. Discrimination is constantly on, which is
keeping you alive right now. Otherwise you wouldn't know whether to walk
into the… you know, whether to walk on the sidewalk or in the middle of the road, you
wouldn't know. So there is a discriminatory process which
is keeping you alive, it's a survival instrument, without it you cannot function. How does this survival instrument function? What is its nature? We will not go too much into that, because
there are timekeepers (Few laugh). But it is something that everybody knows. The next dimension is called ahankara. Ahankara means identity. What kind of identity you fix, that is how
your intellect will work. Right now, you sit here and say, "I am an
American." This (Referring to oneself) thinks and acts
like an American, all the time. Or I say, "I am an Indian." It thinks and acts like an Indian. In India, there is a classic thing happening
in our own generation. It was all one nation, somebody drew a line
and said this is India, this is Pakistan. Suddenly, some line that somebody drew and
nobody knows where exactly the damn line is, still the dispute is going on (Laughter). All right, but suddenly, if you are on this
side, you have one kind of emotion and thought. If you are on that side, you have a completely
different emotion and thought. Just a piece of cloth, I mean a flag. If you look at it, tears will come to you. People are willing to live for it and die
for it. All right. So that is how it is – identity. The moment you identify with something, your
intellect serves that identity always. If you say, "I'm a man," it always functions
as a man. If you say, "I'm a woman," it functions that
way. If I say, "I am this or that" or whatever
race, religion, nationality, anything – the moment you are identified with something,
your intellect is striving only to protect that identity and support that. That's how your intellect is functioning. In modern societies, we've done nothing about
this. People are getting identified with football
clubs, they are nations by themselves. Yes (Laughs)? Football club is a nation by itself. People are willing to fight for it and die
for it, because we have not cultured an identity. When a culturing an identity means – in
India there was a system, now unfortunately it's largely gone, though still some part
of India still has this – first thing, before we start education – this is called vidhyarambam
– before you start education, the first thing is, you must take an universal identity
– cosmic identity. Only then education is given to you. Because education is empowerment. You should never empower a limited identity. If you empower a limited identity, violence
is a natural consequence of that (Applause). So… Just tell me, what is it that we are fighting
for, on this planet? My identity versus your identity. It may be race, it may be religion, it may
be nationality, it may be region – essentially, my identity fights with your identity, because
I am identified with this, you are identified with that. So before you empower a human being with education
and knowledge, first thing is, you must fix a cosmic identity for that per… person. This used to be called as Aham Bhramasmi. First thing is, a child must say, "My identity
is cosmic. I belong to the cosmos, not to these parents
who are sitting with me right now. I love them, they have nurtured me, but my
identity is cosmic." The child has to utter this, only then first
alphabet is taught to him, because it was… education as seen as an empowerment. Just tell me, today in the world, are uneducated,
illiterate people causing more damage or educated people on the planet causing more damage to
the entire planet (Laughter/Applause)? So it is just unfortunately, empowerment is
happening without fixing the identity. With my limited identity, if I study all kinds
of nuclear science, what am I going to do? I'm going to bomb you. That's all I am going to do to you (Few laugh). What else will I do to you? That's all I will do to you, because this
is my identity. You stand against me, suddenly I have to do
something about that. So whatever capability I have, I'm going to
use it. That's what is… That's what is happening. So identities have not at all been worked
at – that's a big problem. But intellect functions according to your
identity. This i… If we have to use an… continue the analogy
– intellect is like a knife. Is a knife… Suppose… We don't give a knife to a child's hand. Why? Knife is not dangerous. Child's hand is not steady, that is the problem,
isn't it? You are in the surgery rooms all the time. Tell me, on this planet, are knives taking
more lives or making more lives? Hello? Participants: Taking more lives. Sadhguru: Really, it's taking more lives? Are you a surgeon (Laughter)? It is making more lives, both in the kitchen
and the surgery table, it's making many, many lives. Here and there, in a irresponsible hand, it's
taking a life, isn't it? Knife is not dangerous. It is the hand. It is the identity which makes the knife dangerous. If there is no knife, just with the hand we
will kill, yes or no? So the third dimension of intelligence is
called as manas. This manas is the silo of memory, which we
were talking about eight different dimensions of memory – elemental memory, atomic memory,
evolutionary memory, genetic memory, karmic memory, inarticulate memory, articulate memory
and conscious memory. Eight dimensions of memory, everything that's
happened from the beginning of creation here on this planet, from amoeba to now, everything,
the memory of it is there in the body in some form. And every day, you are using this memory in
an unconscious way. You are using this memory, otherwise if you
forget, one day suddenly you may start going like a reptile. No, it remembers the entire evolutionary process,
and do not underestimate this. Now that you also said the planet is round,
a simple thing – with two legs, to walk on a damn round planet which is spinning is
not a easy thing (Few laugh). Do you know how much is involved? The physics of it is very, very super complex. Those of you who are on binges of alcohol,
you understand how difficult it is to walk on a round planet (Laughter)? Or if you have a vertigo or something, then
you understand, because it's a very, very complex process to walk on a round planet
which is spinning. But we are doing it effortlessly, because
of this evolution. This is not a simple thing – moving from
four legs to two legs is not a small development. A whole lot of neurological development has
happened, only because of that we are able to walk on two legs. So now, this memory is acting all the time,
and the access point is the identity – how you are identified, that is how you choose
the memory. Whatever kind of memory – both of us may
have same kind of memory. But if I am identified one way and he is identified
another way, we will choose memory differently, organize memory differently, and act differently. For the same education, are… aren't people
going different ways? In the same house, two children are born,
same genetics, same food, same school, are they not going in (Gestures) like this? Because depends on what kind of identity one
has chosen. This disciplining or limitless… setting
a limitless identity – not a small, limited identity – must happen at an early age. If this doesn't happen, our intelligence will
work against us. That's what is happening in the world today. The fourth dimension of intelligence is called
chitta. This is unsullied by memory. This is an intelligence unsullied by memory. There is not an iota of memory in this. This is what, normally in English language,
is passing off as consciousness. So where there is no memory, there can be
no boundary. Memory is the basis of boundary. This is me and that is you, this is my memory
versus your memory. This is me and this is a table, this is only
by memory. If there is no memory, there is no boundary. So going beyond those states of memory is
necessary for every human being. Whatever capabilities you have right now,
because of our explorations, our knowledge, our science, our technologies, well, thi…
this is what is eating up the very basis of our life also, isn't it so? The planet is going away. We have no solution for that, but we are going
on, simply because we have explored bits and pieces without grasping the entire dimension
of what it is. Consciousness means, that you went beyond
the boundaries of your memory and grasp life as it is. Now it doesn't matter how much knowledge you
have, you will do what is needed and nothing more than what is needed, and that's what
needs to happen in the world (Applause). Questioner: So I want to hear about your thoughts
on near-life-death experience. Lot of people have, in surgery, said that,
you know… middle of surgery, they could come out and see what's happening, see the
conversation, what the doctor is doing. So just a thought, you know, when… Do people really die at that time or they
reach some moksha or heaven, come back? Sadhguru: Near death… You mean near death? You said "near life" so I was wondering what
it is. Questioner: Yeah. So when I saw you I (Sounds like – saw life?)… Near-death experience. Sadhguru: Okay (Laughter). Emery N. Brown: There is near-death experiences,
where let's say, someone is about to die, very often we've… we've, you know, we've
heard… read these accounts – like Dr. Sanjay Gupta's book talks about these – like
cheating death, in which case, they then have these experiences where they may see lights
or what have you… I just want to distinguish because, there
are two different cases. Okay all right. Sadhguru: Anyway, when we say death, the definition
of death on one level is you've lost your body (Laughs). That's what death is. So, I mean, let's not go into other areas,
they'll get you into a very fuzzy places (Laughs). About near-death experience, it's… What… What is being referred to as meditation – we
have a certain type of meditation called Shoonya. That means Shoonya literally translates as
emptiness. That's not the right translation, but there
is no appropriate word in English. So it's emptiness or nothingness. So if you settle down into Shoonya meditation,
it's not near-death, it's actually death, but conscious death. Suppose you are riding a bicycle, you are
a new rider with little balance, so you'll go like this (Gestures). Some other kid is riding, he will leave his
hands free and whistle and look here, look there and ride, and do all kinds of things,
stand up on the handle bar and turn around, jump, all this. Why? It's a certain mastery, certain balance and
mastery. Now you can jump off the cycle and again jump
back and do all these things. Similarly with your body, if you have a certain
amount of mastery, you can jump off and jump back quite effortlessly. Now, it is happening accidently because of
some medication or for many people's (people?) during sixties, seventies – the LSD time
– there were whole lot of people talking about these things. Sir, it's your time. It was your time. Emery N. Brown: Oh, okay. Metaphorically (Laughter). Sadhguru: So a whole lot of people talking
about this, and it really happened to them. It's not that they were imagining things. It actually happened to many of them, but
it was also because it was hallucinatory, nobody knows whether it's this or that. There is no way to for sure say it actually
happened to them or not. But I have met many people of those times,
who genuinely experience things with which their lives got transformed, in many different
ways. In a crazy way, but suddenly everything about
them changed, simply because somewhere they perceived, this… you can yo-yo this body
a little bit if you wish. It's not permanent thing. Just that little awareness changed the way
they perceive life and they behave and they do things in their life. So this near-death – I have… I am not really looked at any of the thing,
but some people have told me, some popular books, so they were saying, they see angels
and there's a tunnel going. See, one thing is, you must understand, when
somebody is going on the surgery table, the doctors may be confident, the patient always
fears that he may die. Hello? Doctors may be confident (Few laugh). They know the case, they know what they are
doing. Ninety-nine percent of the time, they are
confident what they are doing. But the patient, once he closes his eyes,
and hands over his life to somebody, he always fears what will happen. So every small thing he thinks is death. It happens to people, if you put a gun to
somebody's head, and just shoot and miss them, or it's a blank, they almost died. Near-death experience – they'll blank out
for some time. And then they come back. They really think they went away and they
came back. And they saw the scene also from the top,
because… that's because of the Hollywood (Laughter). So human mind is capable of creating many
dimensions of experiences. It need not be construed as death. It's life. First of all… Anyway, I am coming out with a book on death,
an inside story (Laughter/Applause). I am doing this for six-and-a-half years,
it's not complete yet (Laughs). Hopefully, in the next year or so I will come
out with this. Why I am saying this is, in… in reality,
there is no such thing as death. It's life, life and life alone, moving from
one dimension to another, another dimension to another. So if… if I lose one dimension, it looks
like that is death. Right now, it is a medical fact that – they
say approximately every fortnight, you are losing seven kilograms of your existing body
and something new has come in – in one fortnight. Whatever your weight, you must just calculate
in how many fortnights you are completely lost. Everything that you have in your body is being
lost continuously, and something else is coming in. But you don't experience as death. Every meal and every day you empty your bowels
you must experience it as near-death. But that doesn't happen to you. But this happens to you, because there is
some disengagement in your experience, pars… particularly because of the anesthetic impact. The disengagement with various faculties that
you're normally used to, suddenly makes you feel you are dead. Nobody died, it's just… it's a completely
wrong perception. Yes, every moment of your life, if you are
willing, if you are not entangled with situations and your own thoughts and emotions, there
are many, many things you can perceive right here. Right here, sitting here, you can look at
your life from there. Okay? This is not near-death, this is life. But because as I said, loss of faculties works
out well for a lot of people, unfortunately. It's not a good thing. This happened. Tch… A man met a close friend of his, that he knew
very well when he was… when they were in the university together, after twenty five
years' break. So he invited home for dinner, he went. And being an Indian household, the wife was
serving, and these two men were eating. And every time he wanted to ask for something
from his wife, he said, "My honey, my sweetie pie, my boo, boo, boo, my ku ku ku, my bulbul"
(Laughter) and whatever else. You are Tamil so "My thangam and my chu chu"
– all those things. So after the dinner was over, the friend was
leaving and he said, "You are having an amazing life, aren't you?" I am married with my wife for fifteen years,
we can't even look at each other's face. The way the endearments you are showering
upon your wife is truly fantastic. He said, "What are you talking about?" He said, "You called her bulbul. You called her thangam, you called her this." He said, "Oh man, I forgot her name seven
years ago" (Laughter/Applause). Loss of faculties, unfortunately, work very
well for lot of people, because they are suffering their faculties. The greatest faculties that have come to us
after millions of years of evolution, unfortunately, we suffer (Laughs). Because we have not read the user's manual
(Applause).
