Matthew Vines & Justin Lee on being gay and Christian

hi everybody thanks for joining us for what I'm hoping will be a fascinating conversation my name is Justin Lee and with me this week is fellow gay Christian leader advocate for LGBTQ I a plus Christians everywhere internationally known speaker author of God and the gay Christian and found an executive director of the Reformation project which is quote a Bible based Christian grassroots organization that works to promote inclusion of LGBTQ people by reforming church teaching on sexual orientation and gender identity my friend Matthew vines hi Matthew oops and I had your volume way down so nobody heard you I'm sorry there's always oh there's I just said can you hear me now yes I just said hello and a very chipper voice and that it's great to be here and thank you for having me thanks for thanks for being here thanks for putting up with my my technical ineptitude honestly I find what you've been doing this live stream thing pretty impressive with all the ways you got the comments that appear on the screen and the names at the bottom I don't know how you did that but so I think it's pretty impressive it's it's yeah it's fun so we're getting a ton of comments already I can't tell you like people are super excited for the two of us to have a conversation and I'm gonna assume it's that they're excited for the two of us to have a conversation and not just they're excited for you they're probably just excited for you but no you know I think this might be the first time that we've had a conversation in a format like this since GC and radio in 2012 oh that was a long time ago remember that was all I know about it okay oh let me just let me just right off the bat I got it like bring on some comments here Derek says oh wow oh wow did you not know this is happening oh wow I have Justin to Matthew's books side by side on my shelf Rob says excited uh Beth is ready le Oh David says Justin I look forward to Monday nights now Kenneth says yay hi Justin Lee hi Matthew you don't get a last name just me Elliott says y'all are cute and a kissy face so thanks for that and some hearts we got a ton of comments coming in here so not a ton of questions yet apparently well that's okay yes I have a question well it's first so first let me say this so last week during the this conversation that I had last week I know we had a something of a troll in the comments and so I'm just gonna put out there in the event that we get folks who are trying to stir things up just don't feed the trolls just ignore them and you know let's yeah that's all I'll say about that um so I want to ask you first off Matthew like you have been I mean I imagine you get a lot of Bible answer man type questions like you're kind of you're not only you're known as a as a Bible guy and I know like people ask you a lot of Bible questions and serious theological questions although those are some of my favorite questions admittedly so I don't mind that's fair um but before we get to any of that I just want to ask like what has this journey been like for you like you know starting as as just a guy and then hitting the big time I think with that YouTube video that you did a few years back and then starting an organization and then like becoming this Bible answer guy I mean I guess I relate roots but I'm just really curious like what is this been like for you because for me it's it's it's still strange sometimes ha it's a good question in a way I I still feel like there's so much left to do so I kind of feel like I'm still just getting started even though it's been 7 years now since I posted that video which blows my mind but and maybe I should I think for folks who don't weren't familiar with the video do you want to see what the video was oh sure I mean just the short back story is fall of 2009 I was a sophomore at college came to terms of the fact that I was gay had grown up in a you know conservative Christian Church and home in Wichita Kansas fast forward a bit and I came out to my parents it was a process of the you know for them looking at things differently studying a scripture anew being able to change their minds and now they're fully supportive of me today which is awesome but then trying to expand that conversation to my church community which was not as successful I think there were ways it was like there were individuals with which it was successful but the church as a whole was just too big and there had never been any anybody who'd come out and tried to stick around and have these conversations because they are in fact excruciating and it's not most people's calling to do that so there was just much more of a limit on what I could accomplish there but I felt like I by having a lot of conversations and a lot of meetings and writing different papers that then went around you know the elders of the church and got feedback and critical feedback I feel like I actually learned a lot about how to have conversations with non affirming Christians about the Bible and same-sex relationships and I kind of learned you know even if I wasn't gonna change somebody's mind like this argument that they hadn't heard before this approach that they heard before at least made them kind of go and not to win you know rather just like even getting people to think a little bit being able to think you know that it actually is a point I haven't considered before that kind of thing so even though I got to the point where I felt like I couldn't say that church any longer just based on the lack of receptivity overall to this conversation I really wanted to make more accessible what I had found to be more effective ways of talking about biblical interpretation on this topic with conservative Christians because when I first recognized that I was gay just to myself at the age of 19 there was nothing that I wanted more than to be able to go on YouTube and find an hour long speech that just broke this down for me from somebody who had who knew that I didn't who knew that I thought that that was wrong but I couldn't answer every single you know I didn't know how to dot every I cross every T sort of thing right but I really wanted it to be explained in a way that didn't feel hand-wavy to me that didn't feel kind of just like in a way in a way that actually was intellectually satisfying to me so I and I just didn't find a resource that was that accessible and I really wanted it and it took me months after I had come out to myself months of studying and of research before I actually felt like I was getting the type of grasp on the Bible and same-sex relationships that I wanted to have and I just thought wow like that is not cool that especially because I was able to come out to my parents and even though they were not affirming to start with they were willing to let me take a semester off from college stay home with them and study this stuff most people's parents would not be willing to do that I don't like but I don't think most people realize how just emotionally like in intense that that whole thing is like like having to work through all of this stuff and trying to re understand what your future could be you know when you're a devout Christian and and who you've discovered yourself to be feels like it's in conflict or that you've been taught that it's in conflict with everything that you believe and like having it like I'm I'm so glad you were able to take that time because I that's it's a tough place to be and I and I know a lot of people who deal with a lot of depression and stuff as they've gone through this process and I just want to be like that's okay that's normal because like this is a tough conversation to have for the first time oh yeah I mean I fast-forward through all the parts of like you know significant depression and also you know it's it's it you know and it's in in one word I'd say it was excruciating but you know it doesn't always have to remain excruciating forever but I think that wait where was I I was talking about uh the Oh so I thought if it took me no no it's fine I just thought if it took me that long to be able to figure it out in a way that I actually felt good about how like how many people even have the ability the resources the time enough support right to be able to even try that much less how many people even enjoyed that sort of research and study which I love but that's not most people's thing so I just kind of thought I really wanted to do something to kind of create a more accessible resource to get that message out there to people when they are at their most vulnerable not just something that because I would I feel like I've seen a lot of times was that people had you know come out been brutally rejected or you know they'd walk away from their faith and something many cases permanently but then sometimes you know 20 years later they kind of slowly start to reengage with their faith at a more affirming or progressive Church and then 30 years later they feel like they understand the Bible and same-sex relationships and that's great but I also thought wouldn't it be nice if we didn't have to wait that long if it didn't if that process could be if we could have some shortcuts in that process to be able to have more of these resources accessible to people at their moment of greatest need and that since I was going through that process myself and I was like if these resources are out there I haven't found them and I can't find them and so clearly they're not accessible enough especially just in the way that things work with social media and the internet today it's not enough that there's a book out there that you could maybe find in a university library that's not really like what accessible means to most people especially in our you know for people our age so it's yeah so I think that's just the main thing that I really wanted to do I wanted to make a video that was the video I wish that I had it was just kind of walking through explaining everything in a way that would have been so helpful and satisfying to me at the time so I did that I got a different church oh go ahead yeah well I know and and by the way we're getting about a billion questions I'm gonna have to ask but you can't summary I know well that's the thing is like this subject matter is simply there's so much between personal stories and all the Bible stuff and that you know Thursday so much but I think well then I guess in 30 seconds I could finish the whole story in 30 seconds okay go okay so that video right with the video I was looking for so did that but then the book that I wrote they came out two years later got in the gay Christian was the book that I wished that I had had to be able to give to my dad when I came out to him voilá and then the Reformation project a nonprofit that I started was the organization that I wanted that was specifically gonna help me try to be an agent of change in my non affirming Church because however good your arguments are arguments alone are not enough to create systemic changes and to create policy changes so in a nutshell that's that well and and you know is gonna say I think one of the things that you've done so well and and that that I'm not sure everybody understands is that you're not you're not trying to like come up with new theology yourself like you're not coming along and saying oh I'm Matthew vines and I think so much of myself that I'm just gonna reimagine you know the Bible or something you know what what you focused on is I like that word accessible is making this biblical research and understanding that's existed you know before you before me accessible to folks who weren't aware that it was there and and just to help put the pieces together for people which i think is is so important okay oh my gosh let me i'm scrolling through like like they're about a billion questions here so let me and i rise I apologize to everybody who asked a question that we don't get to I it there's just a lot and I can't you know I'm trying to read and listen to Matthew at the same time so okay well here's this an easy one Kenneth wants to know how do I become part of the Reformation project well step one go to Reformation project org and sign up on our mailing list that's the easiest step right there and then you will find out about our main program so step two is for people who are kind of wanting their first connection to the organization the easiest way to do that is to come to our national conference they see our national conference is in Seattle from November 7th through the 9th and you can already register on our website actually we just open registration recently and we'll be sending out some blasts about that soon for the people who have now signed up on the mailing list both so I think those are two really simple ways then you can also find and we're adding more all the time just download more resources for free on our website that you can use to help guide conversations about the Bible and same-sex relationships the Bible and transgender Christians LGBTQ inclusion and racial justice and the points of intersection there for us to really be having a more holistic framework for thinking about our advocacy for inclusion in the church there's also a 70 page guide how to talk about the Bible and LGBTQ inclusion you can buy on the website for $10 so there's like some of the resources and get to the website which are also ways of getting involved another core program of ours is our leadership development cohort which is an annual program it's been for about 35 people year but this year we upped it to around 50 instead because of the increasing interest and the number of the we were just getting way more applications than we had room for unfortunately because of the donor generosity of our donors we're in a new hiring process right now to help us expand the program so we're really wanting to take a much deeper dive in terms of honing their advocacy and leadership skills around this topic you can apply for the annual leadership development cohort applications will open in the early fall and that program lasts from January through the beginning or middle of April so those are just some of the ways but you'll also and all of this is on your website it's on the website you know trying to give you little summary we are launching more local chapters this year we already have some strong chapters in places like Chicago and Atlanta and up-and-coming chapters in places like Dallas but we will be launching more and more in you know this year and the year after and so that will also get more people opportunities to get involved in their local community so but in many ways we're just getting started and we want you to join and be a part of it and help move things forward I would start by registering for the email list and and the website of the web address again is Reformation project org Reformation project org okay so this is you can also you could also go to My Little Pony My Little Pony calm and that will redirect you so we just thought we try to reach a number of different constituent foods so I I assume that's a joke but now I want to know where that actually takes you but I'm not and I have to find out um okay so there's some serious questions in here but the the very next question that is on my list is maybe less serious but Seth wants to know can Matthew tell us if he's single which I know the answer to this I know the answer today okay alright I can do it for the longest time the answer was yes but now the answer is no no and I am very pleased about that I'm very pleased and and I know we could probably talk for an hour just about this but like like briefly like how is that for you like yeah let me just say okay so the other day I I got an email from somebody who was asking me some questions very nice and they were asking about my you know side a which for those who are not familiar is a term from bridges across the divide an organization in the 90s that basically means what folks might call affirming theology you know a Christian view that says that that God blesses same-sex marriage same-sex relationships the same way God blesses opposite sex relationships Matthew and I are both side a so somebody was was asking as a side a gay Christian if I was single because I was afraid to put my money where my mouth is like if I was if I was afraid to actually practice what I what I pre do and I was like no I'm I I would like to not be single it's like you know trying to make that happen and so you are you are now in a relationship dude how is it tell me uh it's pretty amazing it's exceeded my expectations and you know I continue to support same-sex relationships you know so I'm like okay now I can more personal experience you like you know I always knew these were great but or at least had the potential to be great but like they definitely are I just someone just texted me and I just shut up my screen OMG they didn't know I was not single anymore but yeah I know it's really it's really great it's also kind of fun because he is not we had zero mutual friends when we met we met on OkCupid and he messaged me we had no mutual friends but a lot of common interests values and the like and I kind of enjoy like his job is totally different and so I enjoy that it's just kind of nice because I spend a lot of time in like the movement and activist spaces which are great but sometimes it's nice to be reminded of all the many other you know spaces and ways of being in the world so that's but it's also just oh it's really nice I'm not being very eloquent about it but I really love him and yeah I'm just going about it I think that's really sweet I think that's awesome that's awesome best wishes thank you thank you also mmm just to be clear now that now that you're off them are get you've got like a network right so help a brother out right oh okay all right well if anybody is how about this if anyone is interested in Justin but you don't want to tell Justin yourself because you're nervous about it message me and let me know and then I will see you know what might be able to be facilitated but that way if there's if there's not a match then you don't have to worry about you know having done that directly how about that there you go um okay Casey wants to know what do you say to LGBTQ people who say it isn't worth the emotional labor to try to explain or justify why being LGBTQ and Christian is okay I mean it's certainly not what everyone is called to I don't think I think there are lots of people but probably know what most people are called to so if it's not worth the emotional label and labor for you then I could say then that's probably a sign that that's not what you're called to be doing but I think there are many of us for whom even though we know the manifest unfairness of it and we know the emotional burden and cost of it it is worth it to us for a number of reasons it could be because you know in my case the first and overriding well thanks maybe the second reason the first reason was I just really wanted to understand that was my research for reason for researching it I wanted to understand it for myself and for my own faith but about talking to other people about it it's because I wanted to maintain the closeness of my relationship with my parents that I'd always had and because I knew that my parents loved me and I knew that they they showed that they were willing to listen I think that's a really key thing if it's a relationship where it's a relationship that matters to you and the person has demonstrated a genuine willingness to listen then even though it is still an emotional burden for sure I think many people many of us in that situation feel like this is an emotional burden that I am going to choose to carry because I think there is more potential for change resulting from this and this relationship is really important to me if somebody has shown even if the relationship is very important to you but if they've shown that they're not interested in listening then eventually it can just kind of feel like you're you know hitting your head against the wall because they're not open to it so I think it's very contextual in terms of and just because and and just you know this is actually what I do whole time I mean in terms of running the Reformation project not that talking about the Bible is the only thing we do but it's a pretty important part of it but even then there are plenty of people where I'm not going to decide to invest my time into talking about this topic with them because either I have you know it's like not everybody who emails me and says I'm not convinced but I'd like to talk on the phone about it your thoughts well I may not have enough time to talk to people who I have no connection to and I appreciate that they even may be willing and genuinely open but I also it's like this is why I created resources that you can read so that I don't have to go through this process over and over again and so that's the other thing I would say is for people who just don't want to engage that's also part of the reason I created the resources I created with my video in the my book so that you don't have to have the conversation if you don't want to and hopefully you just be able to say just watch this or read this and either then we can have a conversation about it or just watch it or read it right and like and kind of process with that process that on your own so it doesn't feel like you know this is an they don't leave feeling like well I guess there's just absolutely no support for any other position than the one that I currently hold but you also not put in the position of having to spend you know hours upon hours walking them through in ways they can be you know pretty less than fun hmm so oh my gosh like it's dude the number of comments we're gonna have to do this again because the number of comments that are coming in are just insane okay I'll try to be sneakier then I'll try to be sneakier try to keep the answer it sounded like 2 minutes or less how about that unless that's real thorny one that comes up I mean it's it's tough because there's a lot to say about all this okay um Derek wants to know Justin Matthew how do you go about being ecumenical in spreading your message to many kinds of Christians be a Catholic Protestant Anglican Orthodox etc it's a good question I mean I think I was like there's there's there are distinctions in how you talk about the Bible in different spaces I mean my experience I want to know what you think my experience has been that it doesn't always break down along strictly denominational lines even within a denomination a lot of times like there's a difference in how some churches and groups within a denomination approach the Bible and how others do and it affects like how how you talk about this stuff but what's is that something that you've given any thought to to like dealing with it in different groups or do you just kind of well so I mean it's certainly true because I grew up I grew up in an evangelical Presbyterian Church so it's only natural that I think the majority of you know people who read my book or anything are Protestant but I think that despite the significant differences in how different Christian traditions approach Scripture there are plenty of commonalities when it comes to this particular topic people do have a lot of the same questions about how to interpret the same passages now they way they may weigh them differently right the Catholic Church is going to put a heavier emphasis on tradition on natural law theory well the Protestant church in general puts almost no emphasis on natural law theory unless they're kind of just using Catholic arguments for a very you know convenient purpose and they're not gonna pick up again for other things but you know in general you're gonna see different embassies but when it comes to the main questions around biblical interpretation on this topic it's not like in you know in the books of the Bible that the Catholic Church recognizes that the Protestants don't there are no additional passages that are of relevance to this conversation or that are considered to potentially be irrelevance to this conversation so in a sense the biblical interpretation questions from an exegetical standpoint have a lot of broad similarities and different traditions but what people do with that information how to apply that it's one thing to say you know here's a good exegesis of this text you know romance or you know here's a the best understanding of this words meaning and first Corinthians but different traditions will do different things or you know way those things differently so I think in general what I try to do is focus on the things that have broad applicability and then let people apply them as is best tailored to their individual context and it's not just broad traditions like Orthodox Catholic Protestant it's also very specific differences you know within the 17 different types of Presbyterian denominations in the United States alone there are all sorts of differences in terms of you know beliefs and sometimes just subtle differences but I don't want to try to get into the weeds of all those things I'm not an expert on every single one of the you know denominations that exists in the world but I think the people who are part of them often are and so if I can just equip them with some basic knowledge and tools that then they can apply more specifically to their context that's that's my main goal yeah um oh my gosh I just I Katie that with so many of these questions okay so actually let me jump in the midst of all these quests good questions coming in I want to jump to a question just because it's it's a question I've gotten a lot from somebody who asked this question before we started so I can't put it up on the screen here okay this is from Laura she asked I'm working on uncluttered right now so the book on clobbered she's reading and I've read torn my book what other books might you recommend for someone like me who might be considered open but not affirming but wishing I was affirming but struggling with the theological side so she didn't say that she's read God in the gay Christian so clearly that would be an option right that would be an option I did kind of write it for that purpose let's see I got my bookshelf behind me I recommended this one many times Bible gender sexuality reframing the church's debate on same-sex relationships by Jim Brown and professor of the James and Jeanne cook professor of New Testament at Western Theological Seminary in Holland Michigan at an RCA seminary he's been teaching there for thirty years he teaches it TRP conferences it's a really wonderful book it is definitely a more seminary level book than mine mine is trying to be more of a popular level book but this is the best this has the best 110 page exit visas of romans 1 24 to 27 that you will find on the market so especially if you're a is that coming from Matthew vines but he also he's focusing kind of on reframing some of the questions on the debate it's not just focusing on the main six passages is also focusing on broader questions around gender complementarity to what you know what exactly are do not occurring Christians mean by that turns out they mean it under different things sometimes that are done contradictory based on the different groups of not affirming Christians who have many other differences around you know egalitarianism versus complementarianism and alike so Bible gender sexuality is a great one another great book is one that came out last year called transforming the Bible and the lives of transgender Christians by Austin Harkey who uh you know we just recently on the live cast here yes but I don't have a name for this thing but but yeah Austin I wanted to say the podcast but it's not a podcast no but yes this book is really terrific especially if you're interested in learning more about gender diversity and gender identity especially as it relates to Scripture excellent who wrote the foreword for that I don't remember the story by Matthew vines I don't know who that guy is I've heard mix I've heard mixed things about him so I would I would not discount the book on that basis okay okay don't I would not think less a book on that basis because Austin it's really great other than that I'm just looking at all my books over here there are so many oh wait okay I just had to pull that because you know I know I know they already said they're reading it but um oh boy I mean I could go on but I'm trying to think of which ones are a lot of these books are for people in different places at different levels of the conversation I definitely like this book sex difference in Christian theology male/female and intersex in the image of God by Meegan's and Franza I haven't read that one yeah it's it's a really good book has really excellent work especially as it relates to questions around intersex Christians and the Bible it is definitely an academic text so like you know there are times that this is not a book you you read in one sitting and has a lot of great rich content it's academic so you know just a heads up about that you know what I also really liked I really like this book damaged goods new perspectives on Christian purity by Diana Anderson okay this is not the purposes book is not to do exegesis on the Bible and now we're just giving any like Matthew Vaughn your favorite books it's just really good especially because it's a this was the first book - I knew of and now they're increasing numbers of them specifically focusing on purity culture in the church and really shame based and shame inducing approaches to talking about sexuality in churches that go even beyond just basic questions of affirmation at LGBTQ people and identities but there's a lot of good stuff to learn I've learned a lot Diana Anderson's really great so those are just some of the ones that come to mind and then I don't think I oh oh oh this one how to talk about the Bible and LGBT inclusion this is the seventy page booklet that the Reformation seat it's got really fun you know how to talk about but this is for thinking about each of the passages and and that one that one's but that one's more geared towards folks who already agree with you who want to know how to talk about it right as opposed to folks who are done sort of okay talk about it how to talk about it with people who don't so I still think it could be helpful for somebody who is open but wanting to learn more because this this is all about accessibility like that's why we made this for with fun little graphics and icons so you can get this on Reformation project org for ten dollars plus shipping so ok a few comments that just come in Daniel says that this show thing should be called just in time thanks for that david says it's not a podcast it's a face cast I guess it is and Clifton is apparently very excited the fact that the mug I am having my tea and today is a Darkwing Duck mug I have I live in Orlando I have a lot of Disney mugs so I'm not like trying to do any like promotion for Disney but they came out with these Disney Afternoon mugs a while back and of course I had to get them so I've got at some point I'll probably be drink drinking out of chip and dales Rescue Rangers or you know whatever so I clift I'm glad you appreciate it Wow okay and people are giving people are giving their own book suggestions in the comments as well I see oh good I mean go please there are so many to add oh and I also okay this is just the discussion guide the Cathy ball dog who you also have on the yes podcast live cast on the show on the live face and just encounters the discussion guide but it's great and Cathy's stuff especially you know her workshops that she does at conferences I get very big attendance or she does her whole timeline you can check out some of those videos online to just about kind of a history of the LGBTQ conversation and discrimination and attitude like sort of cultural religious attitude so again the primary focus there is none biblical interpretation although there is some good content on that as well so let me ask you a question do you do this for a living talk about the Bible and answer lots of questions and talk to people about how to talk about the Bible and and lgbtqia+ stuff do you ever feel boxed in by that do you ever feel like do you ever get tired of being the gay Christian guy or do you love it I'm not gonna say I love it but no I don't feel particularly boxed and mostly because I can look at the other types of things I could be doing and I'm just like well I don't know as much about that there are all sorts of other topics or you know nobody well I I just feel like at least I feel like I'm good at this and I feel like I know what I'm talking about and I feel like I know that it's important and I can see the positive impact that it has and there are a lot of other things that I consider doing well before this point my life you know wanted to you know work with uh you know on different humanitarian crises all around the world and in many cases this I mean you know there lots of people who devote you know two decades of their lives to trying to solve a humanitarian crisis and then some governments somewhere screws it all up and it gets worse and it's like you did good work but you didn't get to see the impact that you wanted to see and I think that happens with so many important causes and issues that people dedicate themselves to I mean sometimes you get to see a great impact but more often than not it's frustrating and disappointing and we have our fair amount of you know frustrations and disappointments as well in the LGBTQ Christian conversation no doubt but I at least feel like I'm despite all of the horrors in the last few years and at this administration I at least feel like and of the conservative churches complicity in everything that's going on right now with this administration I at least feel like the trajectory the trend lines of this conversation of LGBTQ equality and inclusion are still the same as they were five years ago like it's not easy it's not fast I wish it were a lot faster but where this conversation is going to be a hundred years from now it's not going to be a conference station I have a really hard time thinking about especially think about our American context I have a really hard time thinking about any child that is born today no matter how conservative a household they grew up in who when they're 30 is going to be strongly opposed to same-sex marriage and to trans people because you just can't you cannot prevent kids from recognizing that LGBTQ people are part of their world a part of their schools even in more conservative places I just have a really hard time seeing anybody born today is gonna be a dedicated activist against LGBTQ rights when they're 30 I don't think it's gonna happen isn't that part of what folks who disagree with your and my interpretations of Scripture on this are concerned about because you know I have some very good friends who who I respect dearly and some of whom will hopefully be on this face cast in the in the future who disagree with me on this you disagree with you on this and who think that we we are moving away from you know correct theology of course you and I don't think that I mean you and I both care very deeply about what the Bible says and want to get it right and we we think that we are getting it right in the same way that the church has sometimes gotten things wrong in the past and needed to take corrective action and I agree with you I think that I think that this is not going to be an issue in the future but I mean isn't that what some folks are worried about that they're afraid that that things are moving in a side a direction and that that's bad I mean absolutely and I think that's why a lot of people are you know doubling down and certainly the people who are have the most power in the Christian Church in the church in Christian colleges universities right now those are not those are not affirming people and so they actually have tremendous power to try to slow down this change as much as possible and I think they can whereas my job and I think maybe you would see this is your job to it although you know phrase it how you like but is to accelerate the change as much as possible and you know I'm I think a lot of these dynamics are have a lot in common with what is just going on more broadly in our society today which is dominant groups and power that see their power slowly being chipped away at and then respond with a kind of theory and a fury that doesn't look good on them yet trying to maintain their privileged social position and that can have an impact I still don't think it changes the ultimate trend lines michael says we should back to the question of what to call this as just call it a show I appreciate that Michael but you know then that that would just fly in the face of of my quest to make this as supremely awkward as it possibly could be okay so I wanna I want to ask you another question about the future of this and I want to get to that eventually but alex has a question this is a big question a heavy question for either of you many fellow queer people are understandably frustrated and hostile toward Christianity and are sometimes confrontational with me when they find out I'm still Christian do you have advice for giving a pitch for why we still have faith in Jesus and justify remaining in the church I'm in leadership it's hard to balance empathizing with them while defending still following Jesus and it makes me very anxious I did well on my youtube channel last week or the week before recently about why I'm still a Christian so if you haven't seen it you can check it out my youtube channel okay let's see if this works YouTube there it is my youtube channel youtube.com slash geeky Justin so it's called why I'm still a Christian I think is the name of the video but Matthew what do you think about this well the first thing I would say is I don't think you always need to defend while you're still a Christian it's okay they're like especially given the amount of trauma that so many people have been through it's not just an argument right it's not just like oh well you made an argument I hadn't considered before now maybe I'll reconsider my feelings toward Christianity it goes a lot deeper than that for most people and so I think first like the first thing is just to have and I'm sure this person does but I'm just saying in general to like take a posture of respect toward people who have very different feelings about faith and about Christianity recognizing that there are really valid and significant experiences that have shaped where people are at and how people think about things and that is not something you know it that that's just important to recognize and honor and be sensitive to but if people are really pressing you for like no I really want an answer you know you really need to explain it then I think just comparing it to the position of you know where was where were the people of God at when Jesus came he wasn't thrilled he wasn't thrilled with the religious leaders of his day who were supposed to be you know stewarding the people of God and faithfulness to God he thought that they were wrong in so many ways and of course you know you would hope then that a movement senator on Jesus wouldn't fall prey to those same things but it's not exactly shocking and so I think for me the main reason if people are really asking for a reason is just the Gospels and the teachings and the life and the Ministry of Jesus that is the number one reason why I'm a Christian is the main reason I've ever been a Christian because I find the life and ministry and the teachings of Jesus to be extremely compelling and it they challenged me in ways that are like should be being challenged but actually make challenging me to be more loving more sacrificial more caring more inclusive more compassionate more passionate about honoring the dignity of other people less selfish right like people talk about oh you know especially when people when LGBTQ people talk about how something was offensive and then all of them silence oftentimes conservative Christians will say something to the effect of well the gospel is offensive and it's like yes it is but it's not going to be offensive in toxic ways that make people hate themselves like you must be offensive in ways that actually make you give things up materially and in your time and how you live your entire life and I love the way that following Jesus if you just actually go read the Gospels I love the way that following Jesus calls us to live our lives yeah and I wish I wish that the church especially the Western Church especially the American Church were more faithful to that but I think that's why those of us who remain Christian and feel call to that one of the best things that we can do is just to model what we think faithfulness to that looks like and of course we'll get it wrong plenty of the time too but tomorrow what we think faithless that looks like rather than to be as focused on apologetics like trying to like convince people or explain to people rather I think a lot more people will be a lot more moved to see a Christian or a clergy person show up at a rally or a March for undocumented immigrants or you know show up to actually care for people at the border or whatever the case may be any of the manifold human rights abuses that are taking place and have been taking place I think it's much more moving to people and more effective as a Christian witness to just do Christian thinks rather than and then they'll be like okay I may still not like Christianity but I recognize that like you know there are some Christians who are still you know helped me to understand what the teachings of Jesus are in a way that I wish were more broadly practice I yeah I mean it's I I and I really resonate with what you said about the people using this idea of of the offense of the cross the offense of the Gospel as an excuse to behave in offensive way offensive ways and and you know yeah that's not that's not the point I mean we should be we should be gracious we're supposed to be known for our love and too often we're not and it's frustrating and yeah I I appreciate that oh boy Wow okay so let me I know we have like 10 minutes I know and there are a couple more questions that I really want to get to but but before I get to them I want to ask you something that I just the heads I want to know what you have to say and so I am using my prerogative to ask my question where is where where do you think that this movement that we're part of is is going like what's next for us and what pitfalls should we be concerned about because I think that there are potential like challenges ahead for us and I'm curious to know you do you do going yeah what are some potential pitfalls so I think what I try to do you know especially since the election two and a half years ago that I think has and since then has given Christians pretty justifiably a pretty poor reputation especially especially in the evangelical church more Christians from that part of the church I have tried to not like I want to focus my energy not on just like I think it's very important for us to act and to serve in ways that help people who are being harmed right now but I'm also really interested in what are we building that comes after this because as horrible as it is to see you know people who feel like their power the privileges threatened respond in like in just awful ways and hateful ways and we need to respond to that but also it's not enough to just I think there's this mentality among some people that like oh well you know once we get a change in government will go back it'll be good again and it's just like there's so much I think this speaks to so many more deeper problems and especially deeper problems in the church like just about how the church's power structures have been set up to dishonor so many people and it's not just LGBTQ people it's people of color women people like low-income people to just ignore and dismiss people from other parts of the world especially you know like Latin America Africa Asia and Christians those parts of the world there needs to be a much bigger change than just could simply be resolved in an election and I'm really interested in how the LGBTQ Christian movement can help to facilitate a broader reassessment of how the church needs to be better in terms of honoring the image of God especially in marginalized people who we've been dishonouring the image of God in and because coming out as LGBTQ or even just saying that you're affirming and changing your position causes such a rupture in so many people's social fabric it presents an extraordinary opportunity to reconsider some other things and to reconsider other issues of justice and injustice and of life and death from a theological frame as well as a social cultural and political one so I think that we're like kind of where the LGBTQ movement is headed I would hope and what I want to be able to play my part to help it go there is headed in a direction that is centering marginalized people in our own concern community and I recognize that you know right now we're two sis white men gay men who were able to build the platforms that we have in a way that is inextricably connected to our so privilege just wouldn't happen it would not have happened otherwise and so you know obviously we have I'm just really interested in how can we use the privilege that we have and how can LGBTQ Christians in general within our own movement to be centering marginalized people and then creating a model for the church as it moves forward not just to get gender and sexuality to do that better but just to do justice love mercy and walk humbly with God better across the board so that's one thing do you want to say something to that before I get to the pit boss no I was just gonna ask what do you think of the pitfalls are the pitfalls so at least for me I feel like there are different schools of thought around this and I certainly understand and I'm sympathetic to different schools of thought on this but I think there is at least one school of thought that C is 81 percent of the church 81% of I need to correct myself right now of the white evangelical Protestants important correction that sees eighty-one percent of white evangelical Protestants boat or a you know proudly racist misogynistic bully who has said if you elect me I'm gonna use my power to you know do horrible things to undocumented immigrants you know the list goes on if you see that happen there's a very understandable school of thought that says everything that like came everything that those people touch I want nothing to do with basically like burn it all down I get that I think the pitfall though is when you save rich people you mean white evangelical party vigilant especially in the United States in the West I guess the pitfall for me is to remember that like the the Christianity and the church did not start in the United States of America it did not start with colonialism and I'm not gonna claim that the Christian Church had some you know unmarked history before then it didn't but if the Christian Church had actually been founded on genocide of indigenous people and enslavement of African people then and that was really what its court was then yes we should completely reject it but that's not where it started and so I think it's just and it's hard for me too because it's like this is our social context and location it's very hard to divorce especially if the church you were raised in is a church where you can no longer trust the leadership or the people who raised you I mean it's not an easy thing to do but I guess what I try to do is to remember that there is still great value for all and there are many flaws as well in Christian tradition and history but there's also a lot of value to be found there and I think that we have more potential to make more enduring changes that are able to have broader impact among the global church if we seek to root ourselves as best as we can in the good things that are in the heart of the Christian tradition that does not mean you cannot have a critical lens for thinking about the many things that are less than good in the Christian tradition but I still want to root myself and this is why from the beginning I wanted to still I want to understand the Bible and same-sex relationships because I I mean I just that's just not like I need to feel like I'm not just deciding thing I know we all interpret things for ourselves it's not like there is a you know the Bible just speaks and it speaks in a one way and then we hear and we move on from that but I really do want to try to route myself in the communion of saints that has come before me you know the great cloud of witnesses and try to kind of add to that refine and improve rather than to start from scratch and again I'm not saying that it's wrong for people who wanna start from scratch I just think that there's a lot of value and a lot of potential for reaching a lot of people we wouldn't reach otherwise but also just thinking about Christianity and how to in just the future of the body of Christ I don't want to lose sight of all that is good that we have inherited and so I think it's a fine you have to very finely parse out the you know the good trees and and the rotten ones but that's a job that I think is important at least for a number of us to be trying to do you know I think one of the things that I worry about and we don't have time to get into this unfortunately but like one of the things that I that I worry about that I was thinking about as you said that you said is how in the u.s. particularly we have gotten so polarized so politically polarized and socially polarized that I worry that that we are splitting ourselves into like the conservative Church and the liberal Church where there's this politicization of Christianity and it's politicized in different ways and it's tricky because I do think that Christianity has things to say on issues that are also relevant politically so it's not as simple as some as saying you know Christians should should never talk politics or faith should never Mike of course your faith is going to influence your politics it should but I know Christians on the political left and the political right who would argue that their political affiliation is an outgrowth of their of their faith and yet it's it often feels to me more like politics is infecting our faith rather than faith influencing our politics if that makes sense and I and I and I worry about what that looks like if Christianity is seen as an inherently political entity you know you know what I mean like the domain of a particular group or the assumption that everybody in a church has the same political affiliation whether that's on the left or on the right like there's this thing that's like really because the political the state of political discourse in this country is so bad right now and I it kills me how that I feel like is infecting our our faith and how we even see ourselves in our ability to talk to each other and there's just so much there that like I wanna I I don't know it's I don't know how to how to address it other you know I mean other than trying to keep talking across the divide I mean you know yeah I mean I think for me it's very important to me to bridge building work is very important to me and approaching things and speaking to people you know trying to be respectful to people trying to honor people's intentions and trying to be able to reach people and if I think that something is an issue of life and death and justice and injustice and just moral right and wrong then to try to persuade people to look at those things differently and to act differently but it's also important to me to do that in the context of taking sides because I think that I mean it's not because I'm interested in you know I want to go out and I'd needlessly and inflamed or alienate people but I also just think that I think I have found that it's possible I feel like in the beginning what I'm doing you know on this topic I've taken a pretty clear position I'm advocating for same-sex relationships but I feel like I've been able to develop and maintain very positive relationships with a lot of people who do not agree but because the relationship was initially framed it was very clear what I believed I feel like that's it's just helped me to like I think you can clearly be on a side on a lot of topics but still be an effective communicator across the aisle still be an effective bridge builder and I just think especially in this time it's raised yeah I mean I think we need grace for each other to to like be able to say like you and I and I think even on this side a side B thing like we need somehow to be able to say like I disagree with you on issue X but but I believe that you're sincere and I believe that you're trying to live out your faith and in you know a way that you think is right and and we can have a conversation in which we assume good faith in each other and you know good intentions and yeah well I would say assume good faith until proven otherwise that's my motto because sometimes people show themselves to not be acting good faith and then you shouldn't continue to assume good faith when they've consistently shown themselves to not be acting good faith but I do love the assumption of starting with the assumption of good faith until proven otherwise that's my okay so we're out of time but can I cheat and throw in one more question yeah yeah somebody who's watching has asked twice that is a good question and I just really want to sneak it in there um it's from Leanne who wants to know was it yes I support a 70% tax on people making 10 million dollars here anymore it's not political it's not political here's the question how do you respond to non affirming Christians who say that you are quote twisting scripture to quote mislead people I was recently speaking to a non affirming friend about Justin's book and YouTube videos and it came back with that statement as a rebuttal unquoted second Timothy 4:3 at me about sound doctrine I don't I didn't quite know how to respond but I will say that it made me sad so how do you how I know you get accused of this all the time I've certainly been accused of this that you're twisting scripture to mislead people um what do you say when people say that what I say is let's go back to the text because you can those those accusations can go right in any erection but at the end of the day it's just like well I'm making a very specific point about this passage right like Ezekiel 16:49 does say this was the thin of your sister Sodom you know she and her daughters were arrogant and haughty they did not extend a hand to the poor and the needy right like or we're going back to this text in Genesis 19 and the only form of you know seems like anything being described is you know a threatened gang rape which is horrific so you know it's it's not like I'm trying to pull the wool over your eyes and just tell you I have the secret answer and this is the secret answer then you're like well you probably twisted it it's like no we can look at the same texts together and I think that specific points and specific arguments deserve and require engagement and response and so you know it's on that topic you know if yours if you still think that or you know if your point is well anything that the Bible says is unnatural I can never support but then you're fine with men having long hair and we go to first Corinthians 11:14 and suddenly you want to talk about cultural context as most Christians in that passage do let's talk about that like let's actually talk about the interpretive and exegetical questions or hermeneutical ones and hash to those out and have that discussion because the other thing could I mean either they agree with your point or they don't but they should disagree with it on its own merits not based on this idea that like well you know you're just misleading it and it's like if you think I misleading you let's go back to the text and tell me where you disagree with the argument that's I just always like to go back to the text it's what I you know one of my mottos yeah well you know it's one of the challenges of any kind of argument on any issue is that it is it is true that there are people who are so good with words that they can twist things and make you know a good case for something that's simply not true but it's also true that it is really easy to just when someone makes a good point and you don't have any way to refute it to just say well you're just twisting things without actually responding to the substance of what they're saying and and it becomes that sort of kind of you know get-out-of-jail-free card like you know somebody makes a good case and you don't have a response you just go well you're twisting it and and there's no real respect like explain to me how I'm twisting it they tell me how I'm twisting it we can have that conversation yeah these are difficult complicated issues um but you know I I appreciate that you are are out there encouraging people to go back to the Bible so many side a folks have really thrown out the Bible because they just feel like the Bible is this book that's against them and I appreciate that you're out there Sanjaya Bible the Bible is a book that is that is for you and you've said that consistently and you've given a lot of hope to a lot of people I just have to tell you a lot of people over the years like I hear your name more than pretty much anybody else's people talk about your book and your work and so I'm appreciative of you so thanks for being you Matthew thanks for well do you know what thank you and likewise right back at you Jetson because I also can't tell you how many people I've heard we've talked about what a transformative impact you've had on their life and the work that you've done and the spaces and the community and the organizations that you have created from nothing that have served thousands upon thousands of people so thank you to you for all that you have done and continue to do that was nice of you thanks okay everybody you can if you don't have it already you can get Matthew's book got in the gay Christian you can go to Reformation project org to learn about all those many things that the Reformation project is doing how can people find you on social media and such if you go to Facebook type in Matthew vines granted then Facebook changes algorithms Republic pages so that no one sees public pages host anymore I don't actually post as much there you can also sign me on Twitter it's at vines Matthew although I'm trying to practice more you know moderation so I'm not on Twitter as much anymore i deactivated Twitter notifications it was a great idea uh-huh but you know and I would actually follow the Reformation project on Facebook and on Twitter and on Instagram because TRP updates social media a lot more than I do Wow oh and get on our mailing list cool so all of those ways that you can get in touch with Matthew follow Matthew this video after it's done is gonna be posted on my youtube channel which again is youtube.com slash geeky Justin I please subscribe if you use youtube at all and click the little bell when you subscribe then you'll get notifications of more videos like this that I'm doing and other videos I've got a video that is taking me a little longer to get done than I had hoped about kids coming out but I think it's gonna be good but also another video that I'm really excited about that I hope you'll like I'll just keep it mysterious till so what comes out but I'll go to youtube.com slash geeky Justin you can find all that stuff and go to geeky Justin comm which is my website if you want to see all the other stuff that I'm doing in all my social media and all that jazz and anything else that I need to say I think that's all the stuff so um yeah thanks to oh go ahead for you you look like you're gonna say so I was just gonna say yeah one final comment for anyone listening you know God loves you God loves you and God loves you unconditionally nice I appreciate that I appreciate that well so yeah thank you to everybody for watching special thanks again to my patreon patrons for making this stuff possible special special thanks to my gold star patrons Liz Tom Carol Bruce John Larry Terry and extra extra special thanks to Matthew vines for taking the time to have this conversation with me I appreciate you so much for having me Justin and thank you for this new ministry of yours that you're doing I think it's really awesome well thank you we'll just keep thanking each other so uh thanks everybody for sticking around a little later than usual have a wonderful week and I'll see you soon take care bye hmm you

Channel: GeekyJustin

Views: 8,462

Rating: 4.4964027 out of 5

Keywords: Matthew Vines, Justin Lee, gay, Christian, lgbt, lgbtq, Facebook Live, GeekyJustin

Id: gIzOdi0Rea8

Length: 69min 3sec (4143 seconds)

Published: Tue Jan 29 2019