A scholarly approach to the gay/Christian debate

hmm well hello everyone and welcome once again to geeky Justin live more fun than a boat ride with Willy Wonka I'm Justin Lee and I am here with educator and author Karen keen author of this book scripture ethics and the possibility of same-sex relationships which is fantastic and you should read right now because it's very good hi Karen thanks for for being here thank you for having me so so yeah so let's start with this book so there are a bunch of books out there for somebody who is entering into this conversation for the first time right now wanting to know a biblical Christian approach to sexual orientation and same-sex relationships there are a bunch of options why did you decide to write this particular book what the what is unique about it yeah good question there's a lot of great books out there including your book and Browns and book Matthew's book I found that some of the books out there weren't addressing particular traditionalist concern for example some progressive books would take a virtue ethics approach and say well you know the Bible teaches an ethics of love but that was an argument that would typically work with traditionalist and so I try to explain why that's the case and I also talk about what is the deliberative process so a lot of progressive books will say we should be affirming because you know the prohibitions were related to the culture in antiquity it was it was excessive lust it was about pederasty and that's not what we'll arguing for now it's different now but traditionalist don't accept that argument because they're looking at it more from a field ethical perspective around sexual complementarity based on Genesis 1 and 2 which they see as being ontological and permanent and transcending culture and traditionalists tend to be very concerned about mandates in Scripture and so the deliberative process addresses some of that what do we do with the creation ordinate that seemed to transcend culture what do we do with with laws or instructions in Scripture that seem to compete with for example virtue ethics and should I try to answer some of those things I think you do a great job and it you know it's I I love listening to you talk about this and and reading what you have to say because you on the one hand you use words like ontological which for for seminarians for folks who are are in ministry and and spend a lot of time studying theology you're talking about I mean you're speaking their language these are you know that you're you're talking about the the arguments that people are actually making and and going deeper than just let's site a few Bible passages here or there and yet for a lot of I think the the general population in the church there are a lot of folks who don't know what all these terms mean don't understand all of these arguments if they were to pick up one of the maybe heavier texts on the Bible and sexual orientation they might get lost or feel overwhelmed and you've written a book that is it is relatively slender it is easy to read but it's also it also goes deep so that it's not just you're not just skimming the surface and I was telling you before we started recording that I think you do a better job than just about anybody out there of summarizing really what the real conversation looks like right now beyond just the same Bible passages that we you know have argued about for decades like really talking about these are the specific arguments that are resonating in this space and these are the specific arguments that are resonating in that space and here's why I find this more convincing but also let's take this seriously because if you don't then you're not communicating with these folks I thought you really put your finger on it incredibly well is that did you does that come naturally to you it did you have to do like a lot of a lot of research to obviously you did a lot of research but it but I mean like how easy is it for you to write all of that could you make it look easy you know I have been studying this and praying about it for 20 years because of my own process and so I think by the time that I wrote the book and and you know hashed all that out I had had so many years of listening and reading and hearing all the different perspectives and the argument that I felt like I was able to sort of see where the miscommunication and misunderstanding were happening because there is a lot of miscommunication and talking past each other you know progressive tend to as I mentioned earlier make a statement on make an argument based on cultural relativity this is this was an exploitative culture back then in terms of same-sex relation which were not we're not arguing for that now and and traditionalist would would often agree yeah we agree with that actually we agreed that most of same-sex relation and antiquity were exploitative so crested sprinkle who the traditionalist will say you know pure same-sex relationships were rare in antiquity so the disagreement is not really there it's progressives are misunderstanding that traditional if they're basing their argument on something more substantive around dimension sexual complementarity I think traditional also misunderstand progressive and dismissing progressive as not caring about Scripture ignoring scripture which is certainly not the case I mean you have you know top scholars who have a high regard for scripture who are making argument from the text and and sometimes traditional are just not familiar aware what their arguments are yeah I think that's right we've got a comment from one of our viewers Shauna says really appreciate her take on the four eras the church has gone through in this conversation I want to put you on the spot but do you remember what she's talking about when she talks about those four eras Oh in my book in your book or different stages I'll try to remember I think she may be referring to you know the historically how has the church responded to gay and lesbian people so it might actually have 305 I think yeah through much of history you know people who are attracted to the same sex were perceived to have excessive lust they were perceived to be heterosexual and they were just looking for novel ways to have sex because they just had so much left in them and that started to shift a little bit maybe in the nineteenth twentieth century with science particularly with beginning with maybe psychoanalysis and different view started coming up but also not at the psychoanalysis you have somebody in the early 1900s I'm forgetting his name a scientist who was looking at but perhaps hormonal issues going on and so with science there the perspective started to become one nuan okay maybe it's not excessive luck maybe there's something going on there I would say that the conservative Church though have didn't really catch on to the idea that maybe there was some scientific base just until maybe the 1970s and and usually that way not so much hormonal argument for example but psychological so you you had a wounded childhood so in terms of the stage of history you have you know gay people are perverts and criminal and that shift to okay gay people are wounded in some way there's some some kind of psychological condition and so we should give therapy and help to heal what did cultivate some compassion and then you get on to more okay we're discovering that maybe sexual orientation doesn't change and so a shifting for gay people should be celibate mmm-hmm that kind of thing yeah it I you you had a great a great case for why we should keep shifting into an affirming position which is your position it's my position but you do it in a way that I think is just incredibly respectful of folks who who disagree with you you you are so good at really articulating and I suppose the real test of this is you know whether folks who disagree with you and me would would also say this but I think that you do a great job of articulating in a really respectful way why folks would have a different position and my my guess is that part of that is because you in your own life experience have you know you've held that position for a long time and so you understand why it is that people would hold that more traditional position we've been jumping already into your book and for those who are just joining us karen is the author of scripture ethics and the possibility of same-sex relationships which is too long of a title to put at the bottom of the screen but I I really recommend this for those who want to better understand the the nuances of the conversation right now I want to give you a chance if you would to to maybe say a little bit about kind of who you are since I I didn't say much about that at the very beginning and and the journey that took you to the point where you wrote this book yeah I grew up in a small California town conservative Baptist Church was in church three times a week grew up loving God very much wanted to be a ministry since I was a child and thought that I would be a missionary that was really one of the only options for women and my tradition since women couldn't be pastors so I thought it would be a missionary I read lots of missionary books I went on mission trips I went to a conservative Baptist College and but around 17 fell in love with a woman that I was working with at a summer camp and I didn't really know how to describe what I was feeling my my heart which was pounding when I was around her I was nervous and and I didn't really have the language to describe what was happening until we know a year later and I'm 18 and I'm writing in my journal and I can't even say the word gay but I'm and it's only like two sentences and it was absolutely terrifying to me to acknowledge that and I fought denial for a few years before all kind of exploded and my senior College when this woman and I the one that I worked with at the camp finally told each other how he felt and she was ready to be in a relationship and I was totally freaking out and I went to the school counselor and that's my Baptist College and she referred me to an ex-gay ministry Portland fellowship where I was part of the X cube movement in that particular program for two years and then I also went to Exodus conferences and stuff over the years and so that was the start of many years of just trying to make sense of how could this even happen that I I didn't even know that a Christian could be gay it would it would traumatic and shocking yeah you know to have that happen and and so the book came out of me trying to make sense of my own life how do I make sense of my sexuality how this could be in light of Christianity and for a long time that meant being a traditionalist you know I looked at the scriptures and I just couldn't I couldn't see how it could be any say anything other than what it seemed to say there was a prohibition now how can I get beyond that and so I put of the I rejected the ex-gay movement when I realized sexual orientation wasn't going to change and I became part of the celibate gay movement and I thought this is what it means to follow Christ and this is what I'll do I want to honor God with my life God is the most important thing in my life and even though that was hard that was something that I was willing to do and it wasn't until I went on to more advanced study in biblical studies that I started to realize that there was a lot more there that I hadn't realized in terms of how do we understand the nature and function of the Bible and how do we interpret it properly and not where I began to come to different views and I I kind of write all that out in my book how that plays out yeah and and you you have strong theological credentials you know what you're what you're talking about this is stuff that you have have studied significantly in addition to you know studying this particular topic in your own life but in terms of studying theology and how to understand the Bible that all comes through really clearly in your book and you went to a Duke Divinity didn't you just yeah I got my THM there yeah yeah yeah yeah just just just that just Duke so I have I have high regard for Duke my I have well Haven so Paul wants to know I'm Protestant and I could easily apply this in a church Bible study do you think this book could be used in a Catholic or Orthodox context given they approach religion much differently what's your take on that I actually yeah I do think that it can be used in a Catholic setting and I just actually saw a review that got published I think this week it was just a few days ago by new I think it's new way ministries new ways Minister the Catholic organization that trying to promote LGBT inclusion and it does some of the translation work in terms of how my book would fit in the conversation with the Catholic tradition there are some differences because in Protestant evangelical tradition that there's tends to be more of a focus on Scripture whereas in Catholic tradition you're focusing more on things like natural law but but I do but I do think that my could speak to a Catholic Bible study too awesome alright so I want to keep talking about your book and and theology and all that jazz but I want to ask you another question first because as you know a few weeks ago I had Alan chambers on the show the former president of Exodus International which was for those who are the unaffiliated Exodus was really like the ex-gay umbrella organization for many years and Alan was on and and we talked a bit about how his views have evolved he said that that he doesn't actually believe now that orientation change is a thing that was happening in Exodus and and and his theology has shifted accordingly and and so that was it was it was an interesting conversation Alan is local to me and here in Orlando and so we have to meet in person have that conversation I know that you you write some about Exodus in your book and you have experience with ex-gay ministry I I wonder if you could share kind of your your thoughts your perspective on that conversation that we had and and sort of the your sense of the the history of the ex-gay movement anything that's like important for folks to know about about that movement yeah yeah I did watch that interview and I didn't want to say first of all that how much I appreciate the Allen Chambers was willing to come out publicly in about 2012 you came out publicly and said look look I think 99 percent of people don't change their sexual orientation and then the following year 2013 is when he shut down exodus and Exodus where this exits were thriving Exodus without it I think a peak when that happen and so that was no small thing for him to make their statement and to to take those actions and I appreciate that and I appreciate the courage that that took I did have some concern that that maybe he downplayed some of his own and the Exodus organization as a whole false hope around change in sexual orientation there was always that slogan it's not a it's not about heterosexuality as holiness but it was there were there was a double message everybody in the ex-gay program was working towards change and sexual orientation that's what we were hoping for and all the leaders were well not all I mean maybe not all but a good number of the leaders were married leaders of ex-gay program most of the leaders who headed up Exodus international like Allen chambers were heterosexual II married and that was sort of held out as the prize if you just work the program worked on your childhood wound you know did your spiritual disciplines you know God was going to come through and change things which made the ex-gay movement incredibly damaging you'll notice that the gay activist community really fought hard again the ex-gay movement but say pretty much nothing about the celibate gay movement because the celibate gay movement is just being honest yes we're gay and we're not experiencing change in our sexual orientation we're not going to try to do that but the ex-gay movement really had a message that change would possible that would also the slogan and that just hurt so many people I mean I even from my own experience being XT movement being on that treadmill for years you know Hope deferred makes heartsick yeah and people walk away from the faith people became totally disillusioned when when that hope did not transpire people got married heterosexually believing that God was going to change attraction and a lot of marriages ended including very high-profile ones like you know John Paul or John Schmid and I I worry that the younger generations are already forgetting the ex-gay movement and some of some of this stuff can get recycled you know now it's being recycled in kind of interesting form so okay maybe you're gay and sexual orientation doesn't change but you could have enough sexual fluidity to be attracted to one person of the opposite sex right that that's something that that you know preston freako hashtag that's that's something that I have seen in a blog post on the spiritual friendship site for celibate gay people which which I found rather alarming i'm joe i'm seeing some xk stuff get recycled because people are not people unfamiliar with history and that that concerns me and i want people to know that and understand the history of that gay movement there's actually an excellent excellent book by tanya heirs n e RZ en she had a book called straight to jeez yes and she did an ethnographic study on the ex-gay movement that is excellent and very accurate if somebody wants to understand how it all started and all of that yeah you know it's interesting my my experience very much lines up with with what you've just said I did not spend years in the movement itself but I knew a lot of people who were in the ex-gay movement and I did go to XK conferences and and the in I felt the influence of Exodus and other XK groups but particularly Exodus in my church and my family and the the whole Christian community around me and it is interesting as you say that that for a lot of folks who are growing up now who are identifying as gay or bi or trans or somewhere else on that spectrum of sexual orientation or gender identity a lot of them the idea of you know as as they say now pray away the gay is like like a joke like who would ever believe that but that's absolutely what was sold to us for years and years then I know even when I was personally not only you know living a life of celibacy but but advocating for certainly be very open about like my theology was still celibacy that I had a lot of Christians very well-meaning Christians tell me that I was sitting against God because because I wasn't trying to become straight and they were absolutely convinced by the changes possible Brandin from Exodus and and other groups that anybody who wanted to go from gay to straight could simply do it then that either through therapy or through prayer you could do it and and and and I remember at one XK conference someone I know did a workshop called what if my attractions don't change and the existence of that workshop was controversial because because there were people who were like behind the scenes kind of acknowledging that attractions weren't changing at least as fast as they wanted them to but nobody really wanted to admit that the emperor had no clothes it was like no you know change is possible and and there were there were ads there were billboards and and and ads in newspapers and things with all of these people at Exodus you know with text that suggested even if it didn't outright say it and sometimes it did that these had gone from gay to straight which was not the reality of what was happening but it's it's it's what was being sold to the lonely gay Christians who were trying to figure out how to do whatever God wanted us to do and it was also what was being sold to the straight Christians back home who were then turning around and saying to gay and and bi and trans Christians if you are not a hundred percent there yet then that's because you're not committed enough it's because you don't have enough faith it's because you're giving up on God and and you mentioned in the book how that the when people have no way no Avenue for living their life and in a holy way it just leads to depression and and a lot of horrible things and so you're absolutely right that that it is it is a reality of it that and and it's still going on these groups you know they are significantly less prominent and in your book you mentioned two groups that sprung up after Exodus and I think one of them is no more but but this is it's still going on and folks need to be aware because because it does influence what's you know the conversation of the church all over the place still yeah you know Alan statement and 2012 that 99% of people P knew hadn't changed their sexual orientation what radical and gongchan precisely because that had never been stated like that it was sort of like well maybe you'll still have some residual attractions but you can still get married or whatever you just might have some residue old temptation but for him to say okay you know what I really don't know any people that have really changed or sexual orientation that was eleven years into his tenure here at Exodus international before he made that clear statement a clear statement and that you know a lot of affirming people were saying just be be straightforward just be honest and so that was 2012 which is not very long ago and then Exodus shut down in 2013 shortly after that acknowledgement and then as you said and there were a couple of breakout groups that after Alan started to make some of these statements you know around 2011-2012 there are a couple of organizations broke off from Exodus one called restored hope Network that was the president had been an pulk John Polk's wife there now two boys but she still believed in the equity movement and then hopefulness with another organization hopefulness be more like traditional traditional Exodus before it became politicized restored hope Network being much more politicized and connected to the religious right still they do not have the prominence the Exodus international had there's also what appears to be an attempt to consolidate some of the movement again under the brand and once gay I think associated with Bethel Church and I I don't think the ex-gay movement will ever become a prominent as it was but there's certainly folk that are trying to rebrand it and bring it back to prominence oh yeah and and it's and it continues to concern me and I'm glad that you've brought it up and and said that we need to make sure that we don't forget that and that folks who have grown up after the prominence of Exodus are educated about that we you know we have to know our history I really want you made me think of something that's in your book that now I I want to find because I want to ask you about it but I have to yeah so before we fully leave the this topic of of XK folks you talk about these different these different sorts of groups that exist now in the church the you talk about the celibate gay Christian group the what's often these days referred to as the site B group although site B originally comes from the organization bridges across the divide and the 90s and had a broader theme or theological meaning a lot of people now when they talk about side B they mean these this like celibate K Christian group folks like spiritual friendship you talk about the the continued existence of the ex-gay ministries you talk about gay affirming folks and you also talk about this other group who you call the gospel coalition same-sex attracted evangelicals what's what what makes that group unique what it what is like who is that when you talk about that group just because I think it's a bad people to be aware of who were talking about that's kind of a clunky title for them I wasn't sure what to call them but they're mostly very conservative reformed folk so I would say that would include folk like Lorde Aria Butterfield and Christopher yuan and they have connections with the gospel coalition but they are distinct from the ex-gay folk and the celibate gay folk in a couple of ways so they will reject reparative therapy they'll reject the kind of psychology of the ex-gay movement the wounded wounded childhood Theory the psychoanalytic theory they reject those and they acknowledge the possibility that some one attraction may not change in this lifetime they're different from the celibate gay movement and that they don't want to use the term gay as as a label they reject that they tend to use language of the fall so we're falling and we need to mortify our flesh and we need to mortify our simple desires and so they categorize same-sex attraction at moral fallenness and they follow John Owen theological discussion of Jenna Jenna temptation and needing to constantly mortify your your desires I you know at some point I would love to dig into that more because and I don't want to spend a bunch of time you know on in this conversation talking about folks who aren't present here in the room but but one of my concerns in that space is that at least from my perspective it seems like if they have continued to use a lot of the language of the ex-gay movement even though they don't identify themselves as X K in terms of like the way that they talk about about sexual desire the way that they talk about being gay and and and homosexuality as like a lifestyle kind of thing as opposed to as a sexual orientation which I feel like is all of it reminds me very much of Exodus without actually saying that sexual orientation is going to change and yet some of the folks you've mentioned I know people who've read their books or heard them speak who believe that they are ex-gay they don't use the term xscape but they believe that that these are folks who are basically saying that their orientation has changed even though that's not what they're saying so that's a concern for me and I at some point I think that's worth exploring but I don't want to get too lost in the weeds here in this conversation especially when we're getting a bunch of viewer comments here so I want to hop to our viewers but let's see so my friend Sally says hive to both of you I so appreciate the integrity and grace that both of you bring to this conversation Karen your book is on our website along with Justin's and is having a profound impact on pastors and parents of LGBT folks thanks for being willing to put yourself out there it's making a difference sally was on the show a few weeks back she runs an organization called centerpiece PA seee so folks who didn't see that show you should go back and watch it and check out I think it's centerpiece dotnet and I have I they do conferences and things and I want to give them all the support that I can because I think they're doing great work thanks for that Sally James wants to know and this isn't something you directly address in your book but I want to give you the chance to respond this is something you have a thought on James wants to know how do you address the idea that homosexuality is a sign of society's decline I know it is not true but I was raised to believe this you do talk some in your book about the history of Greek and Roman approaches to sexuality and how they were different from how we understand sexual orientation today do you have a thought off the top of your head I apologize for putting on the spot when somebody says well homosexuality is a sign of sigh geez decline which it seems to me is almost always them making a reference to the fall of Rome somehow but that is something that I've heard used a lot in evangelical spaces at least yeah I feel like the folks that would say something like that or the folks that still have the perception that same-sex attraction is a choice or it's a result of a character flaw that's where I grew up believing when I was young I mean before I came to the awareness of myself all the messages that I got was this was just like weird people who who were just acting out and they just needed to repent and come back to God and so if if and I think there's still a lot of Christians who still believe that a lot of conservative Christians who believe that and and so if if one believed that same-sex attraction is because of excessive lust and it just because of a choice and a person acting out and just trying to have novel ways of having sex then it totally fits that paradigm of you know this is just a decline of society but when I think people who get to know LGBT folks and start to understand some of the science about sexual development it become it becomes I think impossible to hold that view because how can you say that you know prenatal hormone in utero that affects a person detraction is part of the decline of society I mean it doesn't it doesn't quite make sense and I think it also that perspective about the decline of society just come from a myopic view of the present and and really doesn't understand all the things that have happened in history you know like the right of Ecclesiastes it's all been done before it's all happened before so I think this idea that society is going to hell in a handbasket is a bit of a myth you know I appreciate that what you're saying about the the mistaken ideas that people have about sexual orientation and why people are gate to begin with not a lot of people think to stop and have that conversation before digging into arguing about a particular Bible passage or another particular Bible passage and yet I think you know and what you've just said just now and then some of the things you say in your book it's so clear why that is vital because it's we're having a different conversation if we don't stop and clarify what actually is it that a person is experiencing if you're gonna take the the kind of deliberate approach that you talk about to wrestling with how to interpret these passages in light of people's lived experiences we need to know what those lived experiences are before we start trying to figure out what the Bible says to these folks if we don't understand you know what those folks are living so a couple of folks have similar questions here Tyler and Shana so I'll bring up Shauna's a question she says much of the conservative Church seems to be acknowledging people are SSA same-sex attracted but still requiring celibacy any best practices that can help move this conversation forward or address complementarity in conservative spaces and and tayo had a similar question asking how can we challenge folks to consider the reality of how untenable the requirement for celibacy or mixed orientation marriage is long term yeah so you get into the some quite a bit in your book but what would aside from you know they should read scripture ethics and the responsibilities of same-sex relationships well what do you think needs to happen in these in these conversations if there's going to be hope of the church moving to the space where you think that they ought to be yeah yeah so I do address a chapter on celibacy in my book but if you want sort of a cliff note quick resource there's actually a post on my blog at Karen keen kaam kar en que een calm there's a post there I can't remember the exact title or something like it'll lifelong celibacy possible and then it the whole blog post it's just a list of quotes throughout Christian tradition all the theologians throughout Christian tradition who have said no lifelong celibacy is not feasible and so I think that is a place to start with the conversation a lot of conservative evangelicals are not going to be as receptive to a suffering argument so a lot of times progressives will say you know there's so much suffering involved in celibacy and that's just not fair to subject somebody to that but most conservative will say but we need to pick up our cross and bear it and being a Christian involves suffering and so it doesn't quite resonate but I actually think that that the argument is really I mean I agree with the suffering argument all also but but that we can also say that there's no evidence that it's actually feasible for every person and people in Christian tradition going back to the early church did not you did not think so and then you have early church mothers and fathers who thought that celibacy was superior to marriage and that you know people should try to be celibate even in their sexual marriages that you try to be celibate cuz celibacy was was esteemed so highly and even though they esteemed it so highly they admitted marriage is necessary as an accommodation for weakness because not everybody can live in lifelong celibacy and so I think people who are trying to say that it is possible need to reckon with with some of that Christian tradition including conservative evangelicals today you have you know al Mohler and other conservatives who have argued for early marriage precisely because they recognized that prolonged chastity is not realistic this idea that anyone can do lifelong celibacy it's actually a very new novel proposal for Protestants I mean the Westminster Confession in a 17th century said it would have sin to delay marriage and a sin to take vows of celibacy because that was just you know just looking for trouble if you do that and so these new the new argument anybody should just be celibate it rather novel and there's no evidence to support it and those arguments are being made not just to try to address to make an argument against people who are wanting to be in same-sex relationship but it's also we are living in our time of unprecedented singleness we have lots of people who are unmarried and so you'll hear a lot of arguments about how you know anybody can just be celibate and single and happy and I don't want to downplay the value of celibacy you know I have certainly had many years of celibacy and and I can see the value of that but that's gene the value of that and supporting people who who want that and are called to that is different than saying everybody is capable of doing that yeah you know you make a really compelling argument about that in the book and and I and I you know I do think and I should say you mentioned several things about the history of some of these conversations in your book that were new to me which is not easy to do because I've been having this conversation and reading about this and studying this for a lot of years now as you know and you know as I imagine this is true for you as well when you spend a lot of time studying this it's you start to feel like everybody's saying the same thing and you know like people say these things like their novel and you're like yes yes I'm aware I I know I've heard that many times you know you put it a little differently but it's to say that you know and you have some stuff in the book that I was like that yeah that's the first time I've I've heard that so I really appreciate that I've got to give props to you for that I have said that I think that that there are three big misconceptions that still exist in a lot of a lot of areas in the church about a bad sexual orientation and about gay and bi folks specifically and one is that sexual orientation is a choice the second one is that it's something that people could change if they wanted to and the third is that it is ultimately just about sex about you know as you talked about in the book of a sort of an excess of lust or or something of that nature and you although you you structure it a little differently you address all of those in the book but I've argued that it is it is not until people understand that those three things are not true that they are able to really wrestle with this issue from a point of solidarity and empathy which is one of the reasons that I find that my friends who are in the the side-b community who are themselves committed to celibacy living this out and know how challenging it is and know how lonely it can be in the church and in society and everything else but still hold that theology I feel much more I feel much closer to them even though we disagree on this theological piece then I do to folks who have not wrestled with this and who think that this is something that you could just snap your fingers and be done with or think that it's just the same as you know waiting on sex until you get married and I don't get what the big deal is you know and don't understand the deep need for human companionship and that and the real challenge of all of that and you you make a good case in in your book also for why a kind of enforced celibacy is different from say a straight person who just hasn't met the right person yet both in terms of being able to date and in terms of you know understanding your your future and and you know and and what that all means and and I I think you do a great job of that speaking of celibacy so okay Lindsey Lindsey has a couple of questions here I was gonna bring up a different question but I'm gonna I'm gonna pull this one up because it's specifically about about celibacy Lindsey wants to know as a celibate person I experience these sorts of laundry list of quotes as very shaming of my way of life how can there be a way forward that doesn't invert the shame especially when celibacy seems so foreign in society can you read the first part of that question again it says as a celibate person I experience these sort of laundry list of quotes as very shaming on my way of life I think I think that maybe a reference to the blog post Lindsay had just bastard your blog post how can there be a way forward that doesn't invert the shame especially when celibacy seems so far in society mm-hmm yeah I mean you know I hear you on that you know I certainly don't want to be somebody that shaming people who are celibate I've been celibate for I think 17 years now I'm dating somebody right now but I'm celibate and I even though that was hard and even though I don't believe that I need to be celibate for life and I do want to get married I have found tremendous value in my years of celibacy and so I individually don't want to shame anybody I want to affirm people and their celibacy and I think you know shame is something that we have to work through ourselves I don't think that shame is something that can be forced upon that you know I don't think other people can make a feel a certain way I think we choose how we respond but all that to say I would love it if both sides of the debate would be more nuanced in both side you know you know if the progressive side would say hey we want to support our celibate brothers and sisters a sibling but we're also we're also making this point that life Lonsdale but he's not going to be possible for everyone and the same with the traditionalists i die with the traditional side would be more nuanced and say yes that'll be C is great but we also acknowledge that it may not be possible for everybody so we're getting to the end of the time I I like to ask my guests a geek question because I you know I've sort of become known now as geeky Justin I've got my geeky mugs today is today is is Mario with on my mug it says what doesn't kill you makes you smaller which is really dumb but I I like it as somebody who grew up playing Super Mario Brothers I am a geek about a bunch of things do you have anything that you're that you geek out about something that you just like obsess over or know way more about than most people do and if you get talking about it you could talk people's ear off about it I mean I'd hate to be boring but I'm a biblical scholar and I geek out over the Bible and over studying Scripture and I could talk for hours about the ancient Near East and ancient Israel and early Jewish and Christian thought about this or that or hermeneutics and how we could interpret Scripture so yeah that's my anything I think that's a and I think that makes it all the more remarkable that you've written a book that is is draws on that depth of knowledge and yet is not a thick tome because I think one of the hardest things when you're very knowledgeable about a subject is to distill it and to simplify it because it's easy to just write and write and write but like to say you know let me give you the essence of this for the for the layperson I think you've done that exceptionally well the book is scripture ethics and the possibility of same-sex relationships by caring arkeen your website you said is Karen keen calm k ka re n ke e n dot-com is there anything else there yeah yeah go ahead yeah I'd have to put in a plug if you go to that website there is a the last blog post is an announcement for a class that I'm teaching this fall on the Bible and sexuality it's starting in a couple of weeks at the beginning of September the registration deadline is the it's the end of this month so it would be great to have some of you it's a it will cover not just things in my book but a lot more about sexuality and the bible broadly so if you're interested in learning more about this consider registering for that so and that's at your website you said yes if you go to Karen keen comm you'll see a blog post announcing that with registration info awesome so do that sign up for the class you can get the book anything else that they should know about or that you want to promote well you get the chance oh my gosh I can't think of anything at the moment all right well if you think of something else then let me know and then I'll have you back on the show and then you just get gets a double dip that way right um before I say goodbye to you let me say thanks to all of my patreon patrons for making it possible for me to do this show seriously you don't know how important that is if you want to become a patron you can go to patreon.com/scishow stan or look for information on my website at kiki justin.com also all of these shows go up on my youtube channel at youtube.com slash geeky justin and if you search for a geeky Justin live you can find the podcast as well which is the audio version of this thanks everybody for watching thanks especially by the way to my gold patrons Bruce Carol John Larry Liz Tom and Terry and thank you especially Karen keen for being on and sharing your wisdom and thanks for writing your book thank you so much Justin for having me on I really appreciate it it's been a delight well everyone how wonderful week and as always be excellent to each other and don't forget the nuance good night

Channel: GeekyJustin

Views: 5,369

Rating: 4.7232704 out of 5

Keywords: Karen Keen, GeekyJustin Live, Bible scholar, LGBTQ, same-sex relationships, church history

Id: Bq_OwYmRVa8

Length: 57min 58sec (3478 seconds)

Published: Mon Aug 26 2019