Homosexuality "debate": Justin Lee & Preston Sprinkle dialogue

hmm hi how you guys doing yeah nice little applause my name is Kevin as I mentioned before I'm one of the pastor's at SPARC and I just want to welcome you and thank you I'm a little emotional actually that you would come out for our conversation such as this in the tone and in the posture such as this in the midst of the culture that we are in in the midst of the church that we all inhabit in love and to see your faces to hear you sing together it's one church I was just being moved by that and just wanted to thank you for that there's a couple of things I want to say as a brief introduction and then we're gonna introduce Preston Justin first if you haven't read the introduction in the one Church statement and the handout I'm really gonna ask that you kindly read it I don't want to spend a lot of time here talking about that but I would ask you to consider the time is precious as you know so please read that and consider carefully the tone and the foundation of what it is that we're trying to do tonight we have done everything that we can to communicate to all of us this is not a debate debates are not going to be helpful but conversations empathy understanding questions entering into understanding one another is and so tonight is I'm gonna ask all of us to have a posture of humility where we have come to prepare to learn if for us humility means listening to one another desiring to understand a little bit better and using that to ask better and deeper questions of the most important topics and issues and challenges that we all face and and so that's our posture for tonight and I know Preston and Justin have worked really hard for that that's one of the reasons why I asked them because they have modeled that so much and above all above all it is to honor the person with whom we may even have some serious disagreements on Twitter and I asked his permission my Matt Nightingale who's here Preston posted this and talked a little bit about his you know welcome to my world about your arranging Airbnb and then I love Matt's tweet here he says I may disagree with you and a lot of things and I there's disagreements fierce real not flaky but significant disagreements but I see your heart to love and serve people and I really appreciated that because it exemplifies the heart of what we're trying to do we're not asking you to set aside your disagreements we're asking all of us to add to the very important conversations the humanity of the person with whom were having a conversation to listen carefully second thing that I wanted to share with you is that a common way that I think all of us approach ethical and theological issues is usually and I'm sure many of you are very familiar with this is usually with a very direct line of inquiry so tell me what you believe about X and depending upon the person that's asking it could be a very simple straightforward answer or it could actually be an interrogation and I face that throughout my life and throughout my ministry career and depending upon what answer that I give I'm either lauded and praised or I'm condemned and so I have developed as I know many of you a desire for a different way of having that conversation so rather than just giving answers honestly I want to actually sit down and have coffee I want to have a conversation I want to actually communicate I want to listen carefully and I want to be heard as well so that the various aspects and nuances of the things that we hold dear can actually be addressed rather than just la being rhetorical bombs at one another as the axiom goes seek first to understand seek first to understand so I just wanted to set some groundwork that if you're here tonight hoping that your site is going to win hoping that your team is going to prevail hoping that you're gonna walk out fully justified in your beliefs I'm gonna ask that we all set that aside and just think deeply and carefully I may have more to learn I may have more to consider and most of all I will leave this place a better human being for having learned and listened and empathized and grown in my knowledge most importantly and I sorry about this I really hope that tonight is just the beginning we hope that it sparks conversation there is a reason why we thought that tonight is really just the beginning that what happens tonight continues on in your small groups around coffee at your dinner tables and your families and that what has happened here has really caused us all to be better and more effective more fruitful and having Jesus honoring conversations and transformations in our life okay with that being said I didn't want to do a lot of introduction just want to set some groundwork I'm sure mudding you've you already know who Justin and Preston is I just want to say that Justin and Preston are two people that I have observed incarnate this posture through their work and having spent some time with them I am even more excited for us to have this conversation for both of them respectively in their ministries are changing the way we're all having this conversation and I'm tremendously grateful absolutely you are going to disagree at times absolutely you're going to agree at times and absolutely you're going to want a point to be made so we don't ignore that but we also want to make sure that we do everything we can to have a conversation with love respect and humility and grace and I am absolutely confident and so thankful to them for modeling that and now I put a whole bunch of pressure on them so friends please everyone give a warm welcome to Justin Lee and Preston sprinkle all right I hope I didn't uh anyway there you go I hate I introductions like that are challenging Preston is going to share a few moments and then Justin's going to share a few moments and then we're going to have some questions and have a conversation Preston go ahead yeah I'm so nervous this is like whatever you're about to say I'm gonna disagree with well that'll be interesting given how I'm gonna begin I guess all the cliched thank you for being here and all that thank you for hosting this but I this conversation is dear to both of our hearts and I just it means a lot to see so many Christians show up to have a nuanced conversation with a desire that we would go about this in a humble manner like that's super encouraged and I was asking Kevin Kevin do you think there's gonna be any like really polarizing voices here that are gonna not what the humility and the nuance and the conversation and you were like I don't think so I think people are hungry for a thoughtful humanizing conversation even in the midst of disagreement so one of the first books I read in this conversation several years ago was this book torn and I this book reshaped how I approach this topic in fact I was skimming it and I want you to at the back I said well I was taking notes like because I was working on a book at the very beginning stages and I have so my book I say don't read the bottom except where I disagree with you but the top part says that my the tone of my book should look like this book I remember reading this and just being just blown away just that the real life story of somebody raised in the church and going through his own wrestling the face of faith and sexuality and it just was it just really it tore me up and in the best way possible and this this any if there's anything about my approach to this which is far from it from perfect to like I mess up every single day and how I go about this but if there is anything in my posture that it has is trying to humanize this conversation it's due to first reading Justin's book in fact I shortly after taught a class on homosexuality in the Bible and I assigned that at a conservative Bible College and this is the first book I assigned and I got some emails that I so thanks for that there shortly after reading justice book I came across a quote by a guy who's now a friend of mine drew Harper is a gay gay gay man used to be used to be Ray was raising the church not a Christian any longer and he said this and I quote to be gay in the American evangelical church is to be dead you're an outcast a refugee a diseased person and that that sums up so many stories that I've heard from LGBTQ plus people raised in a church and that wherever you are at in this conversation that that's just that that's not Christian I mean we sing the platitudes like the church is a hospital for sinners right not a museum for the same today I like I don't like most cliches but I like that when it's a good one but when did the church become a graveyard for gay people and we sing these empty phrases like love the sinner hate the sin and I used to love that phrase and now I hate that it's why don't we love the sinner hate on sin and invite all people to come walk with Jesus together as one broken Center to another broken Center inviting another beggar in need of bread to follow this crucified Messiah together so I just I've been taught I've been truly torn up at these stories I've heard and I'm not just not just heard but but now many friends of mine and hearing their stories and how that has left a lasting almost irreversible scar and on the relationship with God one of my really good friends and mentors in this conversation a girl named Leslie who has experienced intense gender dysphoria her whole life and she says I have the the abomination gospel so branded into my soul that every single day I wake up and believe that God the God that she is passionately serving she just feels this sense of shame because of the the abomination gospel that has been branded into her you just you can't you can't treat this topic the same when you ain't not just encounter their stories but when when those stories become wrapped up into your own story so that all of just that aspect of my heart and this conversation was first ignited by Justin Lee's book so I you know we both we both have books for sale out there I guess right we're selling books so but if you can only buy one book I want you to buy my book I mean come on I would highly recommend buying one of each Justin and I we we have a lot in common and then please correct me maybe now or later if I say anything here that you say no actually we don't have that in common but let me just I I think it's important to establish some common beliefs neither of us believe that being gay is a sin that somebody needs to repent from and I want to kind of qualify that give nuance cuz some of you're like whoa what huh but my I'm just gonna let it sit being gay is not something you need to repent from both of us are passionate about and run organizations towards helping churches become a place of flourishing for LGBTQ people both of us believe that many Christian churches have a lot of repenting to do for how we have shamed and shun to dehumanize and demeaned or or simply spoke in a deafening silence over the existence of LGBTQ people neither of us support reparative therapy or or so-called ex-gay ministries no offense if that's something you're into it's just not when we're not into that both of us believe that premarital sex and polyamory are sin which is a radical thing to say in 2018 both of us I think we received some flak if not a lot of flack from both sides on the lack of better terms of far right and far left numerically I mean if you were gonna add up all our similarities and differences they're probably a lot more similarities but I don't want to downplay the significance of where we do disagree and and and you stated that from the stage we talked about this before like like we are where we disagree we are passionate about and and we don't want to downplay that if I can sum up our difference in its simple or concise terms as I can it would be this I think we answer this following question differently the question is this as concise as I can put it is sex difference part of what marriage is is sex difference part of what marriage is there's I guess two general definitions of marriage one would say the marriage is a consensual faithful union between two adults two consenting adults and another definition would be that marriage is the one flesh union between two sexually different persons I would say our our ethical or theological disagreement largely flows from that like that that is really the the foundation from which our disagreements are going to flow from I mean yeah we're gonna probably interpret Leviticus differently in Romans whatever and maybe some hermeneutical things that we can talk about but really our overarching difference has to do with how we answer the question is sex difference part of what marriage is I'm gonna answer yes and if you if anybody if you affirm same-sex marriage as something that God blesses or endorses and you would say no like maybe it's fine to people who are sexually different get married but that's not intrinsic to the very meaning of what marriage is where I where I would say it is intrinsic to what marriage is when we say the word marriage when I say that I mean the union between two sexually different persons I and honestly I in the I believe it's one of the greatest blunders in the theological debates and conversations around this topic one of the greatest blunders is a failure to identify and simply lay out each respective understanding of what marriage is I mean it's it's fascinating to me that people often just race to Leviticus or Romans and all these things and start arguing for same-sex marriage or against or for or whatever without even saying here's what I mean when I say the word marriage here is what I mean by that here's where I get that definition from and here is how here's how I understand scripture in forming that definition of marriage so to me that that is a huge huge piece of by my theological understanding of this conversation is that sex difference is part of what marriage is or I just if you're a more developed statement I believe who I called the historically Christian view of marriage and we're gonna probably talk about terms so maybe you might not find that term helpful but the historically Christian view of marriage which says that marriage is precisely the coming together of two sexually different persons in a one flesh covenant Union intended for life and that all sexual relationships outside that covenant bond are sin how much more time two minutes one minute sure just okay quick let me just summarize in a three hour argument into 20 seconds let me just give you three reasons why I believe in that number one when the Bible consistently affirms that sex difference is part of what marriage is not just as a cultural artifact but as a creational prescription it's not just that Oh most marriages in ancient world we're kind of between men and women and the Bible kind of adopts that cultural norm I'm saying that it's built into the very fabric of God's design for what marriage is is what I would believe and I would have reasons for that from scripture and Christian tradition number two whenever scripture mentions same-sex sexual relationships they are always prohibited justin agrees with that anyway the belief write reads the bible believes in that the debate is not about what the Bible says it's about what it means and how it applies for today but I do think it is important or yeah significant that whatever same-sex sexual relationships are mentioned in the Bible they are always prohibited and I do think those prohibitions include all kinds of same-sex relationships not just exploitative or other aberrant forms of same-sex relationships and number three the global multi-ethnic multi-denominational church for 2,000 years the global church has also understood the ethical questions along similar lines now I don't use the tradition I'm a Protestant okay I'm a Bible guy so I don't I don't use the tradition argument as a standalone argument but just as a way to cross-check my interpretation so I don't think people say now this is your review precedent you believe in your view this I'm like well I'm not I affirm the historical view that's been affirmed for two thousand years cross the nominally denominationally this isn't just my personal private kind of interpretation of Scripture so so it's important that it's so here that and I'll stop that it's so important understand this is not a debate about inclusive being inclusive versus exclusive like Justin's the inclusive one I'm the exclusive one we both any Christian believes any Christian is by definition inclusive the debate comes up the debate surrounds the sexual ethic that we're including people into you see that's a huge difference everybody believes in including or should believe if you're Christian including all people but you're including people into a commute a forgiving community seeking holiness and repentance and part of what constitutes holiness is a sexual ethic and that's the disagreement but we don't disagree on whether all means all love means love and we should include all people into that community seeking holiness and repentance I'm gonna stop I've got a lot more to say but I've already taken too much time so that's my intro [Laughter] [Applause] Justin so um yeah can you guys hear me okay awesome so I said I was going to disagree with what she said so start with this I don't know what kind of hack book this is this Justin Lee character well no I disagree with you on one important thing which is if you're gonna buy one book some things are disputable matters some things are not know so yeah I there are obviously as you might imagine there are things that Preston said that I 100% agree with there are things that he said that that I significantly disagree with some of which I think are pretty big issues and it's important that we have this conversation but I don't want to start by jumping right into all the ways that we disagree we'll get there we probably won't get into all of them but but we will get into some of them the meat of it I'm sure but I want to start by telling you what brought me to this point some of you already know my story but for those of you who don't I think that stories are really critically important when we have this conversation very very often we begin these conversations by just trying to figure out who's on our side who's on the other side and we start yelling at each other about Bible passages now as a Christian I believe that interpreting the Bible correctly matters I believe getting our doctrine right matters I believe that's vital it's vital for the church it's vital for us as human beings in a relationship with God but it is also vital that we hear each other's stories because yelling Bible passages at each other or yelling about you know which hermeneutic you know you have and all this stuff is not what brings people to Christ and it's not what brings people closer to Christ but but what God has given us to bring each other closer to Christ and to live out what God's called us to do is love and so we've got to start there we've got to start by knowing each other and loving each other so I grew up in a really wonderful loving two-parent Christian home very much sort of the the idealistic evangelical upbringing I grew up in the South and North Carolina group Southern Baptist I prayed to receive Christ at a very young age I reaffirmed that commitment as a teenager because I just wanted to make it clear to myself and everybody else that this was my decision this was not something that my parents pushed me into my whole life from as far back as I can remember my faith has been at the center of Who I am of how I understand myself how I understand my place in the world I believe that if you believe in God if you believe that there is a God who created us who cares about us that has to impact every aspect of your life I never understood like I understood folks who didn't believe in God and lived like there was no god but I never understood folks who did believe there was a God and live like there was no God because to me if you believe that there's God that that changes everything so I've always believed that the most important thing that any of us can do is to serve God and I believe that the best way I could do that was by preaching at my friend's in school that didn't go over super well one of my classmates nicknamed me God boy because I was the kid who always had a Bible in his backpack and a bunch of tracks about salvation and I don't think he meant it as a compliment but I absolutely took it as one I was the kid in school who was always wearing Christian t-shirts and only listened to Christian music and played Christian video games how many of you heard my story about Christian video games okay so I have to tell the rest of you so when I was a kid I grew up in the era of the original Nintendo Entertainment System the NES one of the most popular video games at the time was a game called The Legend of Zelda but The Legend of Zelda has some like magic and monsters and suffering so a lot of Christian parents weren't super comfortable with their kids playing this game and so there was a Christian video game company I kid you not look it up it's on the Internet it was called wisdom tree and wisdom tree is this true they made terrible Christian video games one of which was a ripoff of The Legend of Zelda called spiritual warfare this is real so in the Legend of Zelda you are on a quest to save the princess in spiritual warfare you're on a quest against the powers of darkness the music for this game is entirely like 8-bit versions of hymns there are some hymns I cannot listen to to this day without hearing the 8-bit version in my head you answer Bible trivia as you go along in the Legend of Zelda you're you collect weapons in spiritual warfare you collect the fruits of the spirit only their actual fruits apples and bananas and pomegranates in the Legend of Zelda your enemies are monsters in spiritual warfare your enemies are the unsaved right so when you encounter the unsaved you throw the fruit of the Spirit well thanks for coming everybody right there or and this is true and blow them up with vials of God's wrath at which point they repent convert and disappear that is not the gospel and I tell this story partly because it's funny and is absolutely true but partly because I think it says something really uncomfortable if we want to examine it about the kind of church culture that some of us grew up in I saw my role as a Christian to be going out and throwing the truth at people so that they would repent and convert and then I could move on to the next person and it's not that anybody said those words to me it's not that anybody said this is what it means to be a Christian but that was the message that I took from a lot of things that I heard growing up in church and so that was the way I lived out my Christianity I looked for opportunities to debate issues with people and one of the issues I liked to debate with people was homosexuality because I knew that being gay was a choice and a sin and it wasn't God's best for people and so it was my job to argue with them about it so that they would know that being gay was wrong and if I ever met a gay person I was gonna tell them how wrong it was so that they would stop being gay and live into God's best for their life that never happened I know you're surprised I thought at the time that being a good Christian meant being so certain of everything all the time that if anybody asked any question about any controversial issue you could quote chapter and verse and give them the right answer and I now realize that some of that was pride and God you know God the God who is like all right you're not gonna do what I say swallowed by a whale how about that that God had a surprise for me because when I hit puberty I didn't experience what all my guy friends experienced that budding attraction to girls and you know all of that I experienced attraction to guys it took me until I was 18 to realize that there was a word for that and that that word was gay for years I considered myself straight I dated girls I thought these feelings would pass and gradually it became more and more apparent to me that that wasn't happening and it got to the point that I was literally crying myself to sleep night after night begging God to make me attracted to women and it didn't happen and when I finally realized that the word for someone who's attracted to the same sex and not the opposite sex is gay it wasn't like something I embraced like oh good I'm gay now this is gonna be the center of my identity it was more like a diagnosis for a disease it was like you got the gay you know it was I joke about it now but seriously like it was like if you've ever had weird medical symptoms and you go to the doctor and the doctor can't explain it and you go to another doctor and that doctor can't explain it and finally you find a doctor who says I know what's going on I know what you have I have a diagnosis for you even if it's a terrible diagnosis there is some measure of relief and going finally at least now I know what this is and for me that's what gay was it was a diagnosis for this disease it explained what I had been feeling all along and I thought now I just have to find the cure and I went to the so-called ex-gay ministries that Preston mentioned and long story short they didn't work a lot of the people whose testimonies I'd heard who said I used to be gay and now I'm not I met those people and in private they told me stuff that they've never shared publicly and I realized it hadn't worked for them either but they didn't feel comfortable telling the truth in the church and more and more I started feeling like something's really wrong if people feel like they can't be honest in church what's going on here and so I started writing about my experience online trying to figure out what does this mean I thought this was a choice I didn't choose it I thought it would change it hasn't changed does this mean my church was wrong about marriage about same-sex marriage or does this mean I have to live my life celibate Lior you know what is the span I had all these questions and I started writing my story online and I met hundreds and then thousands of other people who were going through the same stuff and were so alone and so terrified to talk about it in church and so there's way more to my story but that's how I got started in this conversation and ultimately I came to the conclusion that is not precedence in terms of marriage but at the end of this evening my hope is because I it's it's very unlikely that the two of us talking are gonna you know change everybody's mind one way or the other about what the Bible says about marriage well we'll talk about it but at the end of the day my hope is that everyone leaves here with a sense of at least how can we make the church a place where everybody knows that they can come and be honest exactly where they are with their theological questions and the mess in their life and you know whatever they feel and whatnot and know that they will be loved and supported in the church because right now that's not the reality for a lot of folks so maybe we can start there Preston you mentioned inclusion versus exclusion is really not this binary that you hold Justin just ended on a very similar theme and a similar call to all of us so I guess it we're going to get down into the weeds the challenge seems to be that if you continue to hold to your and again we probably need to talk about terminology too like the historic Christian view and it is being received as non inclusive like there is a part of my humanity that is actually not welcomed in your theology I think that seems to be maybe a good place to start because the heart we agree on the heart of what we want to have happen but yet there's a theology there's a teaching that is out there that is being received as unloving as you're rejecting part of my humanity so maybe we can start there and do a little back and forth and share maybe just in your thoughts on how that's being received as well and and maybe a little bit of the differences of your approach on that so I guess that would be my question how do you how do you manage and navigate that because I hear your heart obviously I I mean this is part of the reason why you're here is because of this deep desire to open the doors to to make the church to place for all people and yet the the piece that one piece is a communication to some people it's being received as but how can you say you love me and you welcomed me but you reject this part of who I am so how would you navigate I guess that with an easy one I mean we don't have much time so let's just get down to it first of all your final statement I just wanted a man named n I mean that's a joint kind of goal of tonight then that's I couldn't I wouldn't just get the syllable of that yet the answer would answer your question I mean I so when I say I'm the church maybe I stated it to confidently that the church is a place where all people are included love you're like calling BS on that like no I've been to lots of churches this certainly doesn't feel like that and that is a massive problem it's part of why I spend my full-time job now helping churches to truly be a place where all people feel included into a community seeking holiness and repentance and maybe they come face-to-face with the marriage and sexual I think and they say you know what ah just not there can't can't keep going down this road but at least they would say but these people love me they're walking with me there they're asking honest questions they're letting me ask honest questions and wrestle out loud I mean if the church isn't a place where you can rent where you can't wrestle out loud with whatever's going on then that's not the church that God designed the church to be so but to your question like I don't I don't believe and maybe this would be another point of disagreement I don't believe that marriage and sex is essential for human flourishing and I yet I would say that I think aside from just the LGBT conversation I think that the American conserve conservative largely evangelical church and let's just say the American church has idolized marriage and sex the our culture has idolized maybe not so much marriage but sex and we just because we kind of sexually get married typically then we analyze marriage and sex to worry if you're like 38 in in the church and still single and good-looking and people are like wow how come she's not married yet she's so pretty like something's wrong with her she's not married like we we have built into the fabric of evangelicals in this implicit sometimes explicit idolization of marriage and sex so that if you're not quite married yet until you're having lots lots of great sex then you haven't quite full arrived you cannot you you're not really complete you can't flourish as a human until you have you know a great marriage and lots of great marital sex so I just I don't see that in the New Testament there's no there's no place in the New Testament where the word hope or gospel is connected with like you will get married and have a wonderful sex life I mean that was one of the problems of the whole purity era we said if you do everything right and do your devotion six days a week and don't go past second base with your girlfriend and minimize your porn in tank the God's gonna bless you with the one and everything's gonna be great hunky-dory so I don't um so I I don't just ontologically if that anthropologically or theologically I don't think a historically Christian view of marriage and sex is in it is intrinsically dehumanizing because I believe you can be fully human without being married or being sexually active so now communicating that's the that's the million-dollar question so I mean it doesn't always sound like that so in principle I I don't disagree with anything you just said but so one of the things that is frustrating to a lot of LGBTQ Christians in the church and that's that you know the acronym is always changing that's that's sort of the we're where we are right now that's the the what's considered the most accepted out acronym now is LGBTQ I'm also gonna speak though as a as a gay guy so you know when we talk about gay Christians as well one of the frustrations that I know that a lot of my fellow LGBTQ Christians have in the church is is a lack of empathy the sense that we have this conversation and it's a very heady theological conversation but it's not a real lived experience conversation so let me just to illustrate this if you'll if you'll let me try something a little unorthodox here not theologically I'm more orthodox well maybe you'll disagree if you will if you feel comfortable just close your eyes for a second if you don't feel comfortable it's okay I'm not gonna call you out and just and just put yourself in this position imagine imagine this situation right now for yourself imagine if as we're sitting here we're having this conversation we're suddenly interrupted by a booming voice from the sky and God says through this booming voice I have an announcement I have decided to end marriage for Christians those of you in this room who are single right now you can never be married if you have plans in the future that involve marriage those plans have changed those of you in this room who are married already at the moment you leave this room tonight your marriage is dissolved you must separate from your spouse you cannot see them again and you may never be married again in the future if you have children those also will be taken away from you and you will never see them again either after tonight I just want you to sit for a moment and imagine what your emotional reaction would be what questions you might have when you get home and you have a conversation with your family about what you heard what would that conversation be like what would you say to them and with your eyes still closed think about how the days and the weeks and the months in the years ahead of you might be different what would change what would be difficult for you who would you spend time with and imagine if you got sick and you needed round-the-clock care who in your life with your family gone who would care for you and make sure you got the treatment that you needed now as you feel comfortable you can open your eyes and I just want you to reflect for a moment on the emotion of that and imagine how that might change the church how that might change what the gospel sounds like to people outside of the church if you say hey when you become a Christian you must leave your family how many people in this room do you imagine would stay Christians if God said this is only for Christians so if you're not a Christian you can have your family how many people would stay how many people would maintain their private family and just not tell anybody at church now when I when you imagined yourself in that scenario how many of you was your primary concern about sex and nobody this is what's so frustrating to a lot of gay Christians in particular when we have this conversation what many of our churches have said to us is you can't be married you can't have kids if you are married you have to leave your spouse because this is not what God wants for you and we say gosh I have a lot of questions like if this happened for real people would be like how do I know that was God and hadn't somebody wasn't hacking the PA system you know we might have questions like well wait what if God didn't say you can never see your spouse again but God just said you can't live together as husband and wife anymore well could we still live together and not be husband and wife or live next door to each other can we still spend time together can we still cuddle on the couch and watching Netflix together if we don't have sex like there'd be a lot of those questions right and yet I find that when gay Christians ask those questions in our churches or or just want someone to hold hands with in church or whatever people automatically assume that's bad that's sinful we say well can we have romance can I have intimate companionship and people like it seems like you're just splitting hairs and over and over again the conversation ends up being about sexual morality and what God wants for us sexually now sex is a part of marriage but the big question that we're asking is not about sex it's about companionship and love and who cares for us when we get sick and and and the deep grief that comes with somebody saying you have to be alone now let me ask you one more thing and then I'll shut up how many of you when I asked where who might take care of you or who would you spend time with how many of you thought of the church in that role oh not very many people that's kind of terrible I think the church has the the ability to be that for people and the church right now is the place that most LGBTQ people feel the least safe in the world so I tell you I put you through that and I ask you to imagine that not because I think that answers the theological question just because it's hard doesn't mean God didn't say it but I I want you to think about when we have this conversation how much deeper this is for folks than just a question about sex so that's that's where I think the dehumanization comes in this sense that we get reduced to a debate about sex Preston do you though I mean the modern-day conversation debate dialogue about sexual ethics marriage ethics is so intertwined with it with it what should be a conversation about ecclesiology about church because the church that Jesus envisioned and fought so hard to build in terms of being like when you said like would the church be the one caring for you and I'm thinking like first century church oh absolutely 21st century American Church few and far between yeah and that's why I think it is we can't this is that stupid cliched phrase like I said to you earlier they're so goofy but it makes sense like as if you're true if you believe in a traditional view of marriage and stuff in this room like you can't just try to call people out of sin without calling them into kin or a friend of ours Eve Titian it talks about the vocation of no don't have gay sex good luck with that see you on the other side I'm out of here I got no family to go attend to like if we're not willing to do what Jesus commanded us to do in mark 1029 the thirty of like becoming the family and brothers and sisters and mothers and fathers and fields and homes for all of God's people opening up our homes and our dinner tables and minivans and family lives and doing that then I just I get nervous about people just saying don't have gay sex good luck with that I'm gonna go home with my family and you know hope that works out for you yeah I saw I mean I think I think this is a lot of common ground actually within the difference that that man we need to wake up to the there to becoming the reward that Jesus built into the gospel you leave behind everything in mark 10 what do you get we get eternal life in the afterlife that's great if that's all there was and that's tape it's worth it but also in this life you get the reward of mothers and Families and fathers and mothers and sisters and brothers you know the spiritual kinship but when you look around at our that the way our modern-day church is mostly not all of them but a lot of times you're not it's not that kind of like powerfully attractive authentic community that I think Jesus in envision so yeah I love what you said just and I think it's convicting challenging and correct so yeah so it feels like there's a couple things that are going on that need a little bit more fleshing out um thank you so much for sharing that that was really I think uh a perspective that I'm so glad that you voice and you model it so well for us I'm hearing the voice on the other side though Justin that would say that's I I have sympathy I have empathy but I can't let that personal experience change the way that I read the text sir and so I didn't hear you Preston mention anything about you know responding specifically to how Justin's uh exercise in that imaginative exercise leads to an interpretation of how we actually practices but so I guess the the question for you then Justin would be the text is the text and it says what it says and as much empathy as I can have for you I can't I can't dishonor God by dishonouring what the Scriptures are teaching so how I think again to honor the the exercise that's really wonderful I really appreciate you doing that so how would you respond to that what's the navigation through that so well yeah I mean first of all I think that's I think that's right I think that that at the end of the day if God says sacrifice Isaac you sacrifice Isaac right like that's but for me the starting point for the conversation has to be for those who are not directly affected and this specifically you know affects those of us who are who are gay the some of the questions are a little more complicated for other folks on the lgbtq+ spectrum but if we're gonna say to gay Christians you know this is what God's demanding at the very least their needs that needs to come with a tremendous amount of like grief and walking that you know walking through that with people and not just dismiss as well you know we put too much emphasis on on family in the culture which I know is not at all how you meant what you said but it's it's definitely how it feels at times when when folks in the church say that it's sort of like gosh well we spent too much time talking about family family you know family is not the end-all be-all marriage isn't the end-all be-all uh anyway I'm late to have dinner with my wife so you know but as I said that does not by itself determine the theology what I would hope that it does do is encourage us to go back to the scriptures and make sure that they do say what we think that they said in the same way that if we did literally hear a voice from the sky that sounded like God was saying that that we would do some analysis analysis and say okay wait this is a really big deal let's make sure that was actually God and let's make sure we parse very carefully what was just said I agree with Preston in his describing of his view as the historical Christian view it is certainly true that the church historically has not allowed for same-sex sex the church historically has said that same-sex sex is sinful that's not really been debated in the church until fairly recently what the church has not historically said is we recognize that there are gay people who are also Christians for whom a same-sex relationship is the only real opportunity that they have for a romantic relationship and those people must be celibate and that may sound like I'm splitting hairs but it's a really significant distinction because through the vast majority of the church's 2,000 year history there wasn't really a whole lot of debate about this partly because there wasn't any cultural conversation about the existence of gay people the assumption was everybody had the opportunity for heterosexual attraction and so to say don't have same-sex sex was essentially equivalent to saying don't have sex outside of marriage what's the problem so I think that it's important that we go back and re-examine what the scriptures say and I would argue and gosh this would take a lot longer than we have but I mean I would argue that there are a lot of things in Scripture that would lead us to a different reading but that's that's for me that really the the point of the exercise yeah do you would you want to respond I mean what so I'll follow up with a question to you Preston yeah you you mentioned and a little bit to what Justin was saying that the response of what we get to give too much emphasis to a family a marriage and you have things like that and that's not the end-all be-all but yet the argument that I've heard you make as well as other people on a very similar position would make the argument from creation yeah right we're going back to Genesis 1 and we're using Genesis 1 as the preeminent example of God's good design so I'm kind of curious that sounds dissonant to me to say that God's good design and we are very strong in the emphasis of male and female created in God's image man's gonna leave you know his his mother and the father would be united to his white right that all of that teaching and yet at the same time you're saying but you know marriage and sex is not really all that big of a deal so help you navigate those two pieces of the puzzle and somewhat in response to Justin's comment that brushing that aside it still feels like a dismissiveness beginning with what you just said I the brushing aside way to say that part again is for make sure if I whoa I don't know if you want to respond to reply or restate what you mention it or I could address with your first purchase that works well I think Justin was mentioning that part of the frustration is you know to bring this up and is when we're being told well marriage is not that important yeah essentially what you just mentioned right it's not that important it's not it's not the ultimate element or essence of what it means to be a human flourishing so here yeah I would say marriage is is very important as an institution as for those who are called to marriage I would say I think to put it I guess biblically I don't think the New Testament teaches that marriage is essential for human flourishing Old Testament folly how does the Hebrew Bible it may be different I think there it seems to be a but much bigger part of the fabric of human existence whereas in the New Testament there seems to be this profound elevation of singleness you know on par independent I read Paul and first Corinthians 7 maybe even beyond you know marriage but marriage itself that the definition of marriage doesn't change but it's how it's framed in terms of its relation to human flourishing for all people I think is diminished so yes absolutely a sacred institution I don't think the definition changes throughout scripture but I think it is downplayed not redefined but downplayed as a means for human flourishing and in the New Testament I think it's there's theological significance in the fact that we serve a savior of marital AIDS who is single who exemplified human flourishing and what it means to bear God's image more than more than anybody with them yeah so with I mean with Genesis 1 and 2 I do think I mean Genesis 1 and 2 is not just the first two chapters of the Bible it it is pretty fundamental to a Christian worldview I mean it's it's where we get the goodness of creation like if you believe they were to care for creation like that's a profound statement that the Bible declares that creation is good it's where we get the full equality of man and woman like it one of the most radical profound beautiful statements in all of ancient Near Eastern literature is that male and female like created in God's image equally that that was the most radical statement in the ancient world the sovereignty of God in Genesis 1 the the intimacy of God in Genesis 2 I mean these are profound themes for a Christian world yeah I wouldn't say any of these are just kind of insignificant or wrapped up into that is the beauty and equality of sex difference and then at the end of Genesis when to sexually different persons come together in a one flesh Union like I that's wrapped up the whole package in Genesis 1 and 2 I do you think that is that is rather significant yeah but there so when I it's interesting like when I read when I read this the same passage that you're talking about I don't see in that passage a big deal being made about sexual difference that's I I it's certainly there it's certainly you know I would argue it's that part the fact that you have male and female is descriptive but not prescriptive what I see is really standing out in that passage is God saying of Adam it is not good that the man should be alone Paul yeah Paul uphold singleness but then Paul also says you know it's better to marry than burn with passion I over and over I see Scripture reaffirming that marriage is is valuable and is important and is something that many of us would feel a tremendous loss without you know I have a friend who says he says like all I like I want to get married but he says like if the church says I can't get married at the very least I just even if I can never have sex I want somebody to watch Netflix with under a blanket and the church thinks I want Netflix and chill but all I really want is I want someone to like like sit next to under a blanket and watching Netflix you know like there is this longing that I think we were created for to be connected to another another person and not every person you know there are people in this room for whom that exercise earlier was probably not a big deal because they're either like in a bad marriage would be happy to be out of it or I don't know your life or single and never felt a particular call to singleness but the Bible never suggests that that is for everyone or for a large group of people and that word should be enforced on people now is it is it essential for human flourishing no I don't think it's essential for human flourishing necessarily as such but I'm reminded of the story where Jesus heals on the Sabbath and the the guy that jesus heals you know has a withered hand is it essential for human flourishing to have a non withered hand no I don't think so but Jesus chooses to heal on the Sabbath even though you're not supposed to work on the Sabbath and the fair season teaches the law get upset about it and and give him a hard time about it and Jesus says and there's several occasions where he has these kinds of conversations about work on the Sabbath you know but but he he says you know which is better on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil to save life or to kill which is a weird like it's not like his only option was either you know heal this guy or kill him I mean he could have left the guy he could have come back and healed him another day Jesus makes a conscious choice and Jesus on one of these occasions says if your child or your ox fell into a well on the Sabbath wouldn't you pull them out and for me what Jesus is saying is okay yeah there's a rule about work on the Sabbath and that rule is valuable and it's important it was a very very important rule but he's saying look it matters the impact of your theology it matters not just that you're following the rule but what is the impact of that on human beings who are hurting and I feel like what the church is saying to folks is or what the church is saying to a lot of Christian parents is leave your children in the well overnight because the passages clearly say that and then when we look at the passages none of those passages are about same-sex marriage or gay people being celibate you have passages about stuff like gang rape and Sodom or idol worship in Romans you know passages if first Corinthians in the context of a war of a culture where men are having sex with boys on the side outside of their marriage and I don't think any of that applies to to people who want to commit their lives to each other in the sight of Christ and so that's that's my concern is that we've gotten so concerned with applying these verses legalistically the way the Pharisees were trying to do the right thing that we've missed the forest for the trees this feels like a commonality actually between both of you in your stories and I want to re-emphasize a point that you made just in that I think is that we don't want to gloss over that you're not saying that your experience or that empathy replaces or usurped or as higher than the text but it causes you to go back and read read and to rethink and to recognize that maybe the 1984 NIV English version may not be the the most you know accurate way in which God has dictated his will right so your experience Lygia to revisit that is that a fair yeah I think the conscience Oh first of all I actually one of things I like about the 1984 NIV version thanks for bringing that up his first Corinthians 6:9 in that passage says homosexual offenders will not inherit the kingdom of God which led a friend of mine to say and always makes me laugh the Bible condemns homosexual offenders so stop offending the homosexuals what's bad theology that's pathology interestingly that passage in the NIV today has been sort of quietly retranslated and it now says men who it's used to say homosexual offenders and male prostitutes and now it says men who have sex with men which is kind of different so but ya know that's what I'm saying is I'm not yeah I'm not saying that the fact that this is hard that's hard teaching means automatically you know we should never ask people to sacrifice that God's commands are always easy or anything like that God asks us to give up a lot and if God asks us to do something really horrible you know they're not really horrible something really difficult then then we have to do something really difficult but I do think that our our empathy and our conscience ought to move us to re-examine these texts and be really careful and I think one of the places where we we know we failed to do that historically is slavery the church for like eighteen hundred years did not on any significant scale condemn slavery in fact the more you study history the more disturbing stuff you find about how many ways the church across denominations across cultures allowed and participated in and supported slavery and you know occasionally you would have like a person who would pop up here or there and go something feels really wrong about this but the the teachers the powers-that-be would go back and say well look here's this passage that says slavery is okay and here's this passage in this passage in this passage and it even got to the point there's a great book about this by an evangelical Christian historian named Mark Noll it's called the civil war as a theological crisis and he argues that in the American Civil War as the cultural attitudes toward slavery in the u.s. were changing and more and more Christians were becoming abolitionists that there was a real theological crisis because for so many Christians including the who didn't like slavery there was a sense that scripture was clear and allowing slavery and yet their consciences were leading them in another direction and they didn't know what to do about it and it's I mean some of the quotes from that era are just like I mean you can I'll give you one real quick just because I think this is like this is is just incredible I'll give you a couple so Leonard bacon 1846 the evidence that there were both slaves and masters of slaves in the churches founded and directed by the Apostles cannot be got rid of without resorting to methods of interpretation which will get rid of everything Moses Stuart 1850 who null says was widely recognized as the nation's most learned and biblical scholar at the time wrote that abolitionists quote must give up the New Testament Authority or abandoned the fiery course which they are pursuing in other words you can't be an abolitionist and believe that the New Testament is the Word of God because the New Testament so clearly allows slavery we look back at that now and we go that was really wrong and we see evidence in Scripture of a movement that we go oh here's the evidence that we would now point to to say the Bible doesn't allow for slavery but it was not obvious to the church for almost 2,000 years and that was a conversation that church was having for for 2,000 years this is a conversation the church hasn't been having until recently and so I think we need to be open to if our consciences are saying something feels wrong here we need to listen to that because that could be the Holy Spirit yeah and I think that's a perfect yeah lead-in screech all right tell me why I'm wrong well in a day in addition to that you have you have other issues such as divorce self-mutilate self-mutilation in addition to slavery so yeah yeah yeah let me try to go back and let me begin to this slavery one I mean I I don't I would say there is more diversity in church history especially in the anti Nicene period that I mean several early church fathers were not as into slavers you think even Aquinas had different views and others I think there was more diversity there but yeah of course there's 19th century Christian American interpreters who I think just totally botched interpreting how the Bible framed slavery I mean kind of part of me was like yeah I mean there's several times throughout church history when interpreters box interpreting the Bible I mean think about for how long we would they were so misogynistic and demeaning towards women even though Genesis one seems pretty clear that women are fully equal with men but so I mean if this is a dialogue about slavery Scripture and her soul of Christianity I would love to just you know dig deeper into that and talk about you know the trajectory of slavery in the Bible and how Paul gets slavery from the inside out and how slavery is a departure from Genesis 1 and 2 were I think sex difference in marriage is going back to the Genesis 1 into ideal and and both of us are gonna agree that the Bible doesn't endorse slavery and so but we would have biblical reasons for that so that's where I want to say I think it's it's just I mean just from my vantage point it feels like a bit of a red herring to say well we kind of screwed up this area here and so therefore it's like I'm gonna hang out on that there for a little bit say wait a minute just because we got slavery wrong just because a lot of Christians misinterpreted the Bible to get slavery wrong for all these years doesn't mean therefore you can just kind of map that on another ethical question we have to actually take the biblical clarity and evidence for or against this ethical question with same-sex marriage and same-sex sexual relations and look at that so yeah I mean when I look at Genesis I I just I I'm trying so hard not to just trying hard not to read into the text what I want to see there and we both are and I think that we have to be honest that we do read the text with with with lenses on and and we have to work hard not to not to bring that to our interpretive method but when would I look at Genesis I mean you know you have in in Genesis 2:23 where Adams all exciting zile stoat that God created Eve and he's like bone of my bone flesh of my flesh you know a statement of equality and then he says you know she shall be called woman because she was taken out of man a statement of difference woman man if it's not sex difference that is being celebrated there I don't I don't think I'm reading into the text by saying I think woman taking out a man that that sex difference being highlighted and then it says therefore a man shall leave his father mother be joined to his wife and they shall become one flesh the they who become one flesh are precisely to sexually different persons then in Matthew 19 Jesus emphasizes it even more he says God created them from the beginning male and female therefore and I know you're a context guys so what's that therefore therefore it's connecting male female therefore the two or the mentally the father mother and the two shall become one flesh and I don't I mean you been fine letting the audience decide I mean I don't think I'm reading into the text when the two become one flesh that logically syntactically exegetically the two are the male and female which I'm if there's any first century Jew in the room right now they would be yawning it's like well yeah this is not this is not radical stuff I mean this is what Judaism on 500 years either side of Jesus believe it wasn't like some radical thing they were pushing for so and with the I don't know if we want to get in the prohibition passage can I add something sure to be fair I don't know if justin is the same please correct me if I'm wrong that because we got slavery wrong therefore we've got this wrong it's not like a one-to-one correspondence at least from what I understand from Justin's writings as well as some other some other arguments its to recognize that the way in which we read the text itself has to be revisited and so when you say things like I don't think I'm reading into it that that I think can be perceived as doing well it's kind of the same thing well some of those quotes about slavery it's like well this clearly says this and this Chloe says this to revisit the issue of slavery is not just to revisit the text and see what it says is to revisit ourselves and how we've drawn from what the text actually says to what it actually means and so I don't think I would argue with you at least textually that there's male and female and taken out to the side you know none of that is an argument that's in the text I think what I'm understanding to be the crux of it is to draw from that and I think Justin you alluded to this that difference is the point that's the jump that's the leap right it's it's not to say that the difference isn't there it's to ask the question why is difference the point or at least a theological grounding anchor in what this creation story is saying it would be the same thing like with slavery slavery is not the that we are rethinking it because it's not the point there's something much bigger that's going on to read into especially when with you know Paul's letter to Philemon and Onesimus right do you have we're now revisiting how we read does that does that make sense and is that a fair well yeah I mean let me first say I like I want to completely agree with with Preston that you know yeah but that having having a position on slavery does not mean that you have a certain position on on this question they are not identical situations I think one of the things one of the places that we often get caught up is the this kind of slippery slope idea that you know if you have this position on this issue then then what's gonna happen you know you know then you'll have a position on that and then what goes both ways I think every issue we have to take on its own merits textually and so forth so I want to completely give you that Aquinas I'm not going to give you because Aquinas Aquinas allowed for people to beat their slaves so but hehe had yeah but I mean but but I it is a complicated question and I think and I think it's it's vital and you know like we're gonna do we're gonna disagree on this we're gonna disagree on on on slavery we're gonna disagree on Genesis we could go probably an hour talking about that you know what is that therefore therefore because of many thoughts about why Jesus uses that phrase at the time that he does and you know they're different from yours but I do think it's important for the sake of having a gracious conversation in the church that we'd be able to look at these passages that we'd be able to recognize that it is as much as we want to read these texts and just hear what God is saying in these texts it is impossible for us to read these texts without reading them to some extent through our own lenses Tony Campolo once said you you may have inerrant scriptures but none of us are inerrant interpreters and and I like that and it means that I can't read these texts without bringing to it the fact that I'm gay and would like to get married someday by the way having pro-gay marriage theology has not helped me out at all I'm still single so I don't know what that means anyway hmm none of the three of us on this stage can read these texts without bringing to the texts what we heard in church about these texts growing up what we believe the right answers are the people we know who are affected by the texts our own experiences like all of these things influence how we read them and so I do think you know ultimately you and I could spend hours up here debating some of these texts but I think it ultimately one of the things we have to be willing to do is to have some grace for each other and to say I you know I fully believe I think Preston's wrong on this and I and I think that if the church gets it wrong in either direction it is a serious error because either we're encouraging people to do something that is sinful or we're telling people something is sinful that's not sinful and putting an extra burden on them that's causing people to leave the church and walk away from Christ and either way I think the church will be held to account and the problem is there's no safe answer because we have to do we have to have a answer one way the other and either way we could get it wrong one of us is wrong but we still have to have grace for each other I think and and be able to say I believe that even though I think Preston's wrong I think that he is trying very hard to read the text correctly and to listen to the spirit I think he's wrong so I'm I'm feeling having excruciating feelings because of time and the one of the most important things that we had agreed needed to be discussed as where does the church go from here yeah and I think your comment is a good one to transition to that and then we'll take our intermission and field some questions but the the question is essentially so where do we go from here given that the stakes are very high and given that grace is needed for each other and given that we are a room full of people that I know because I've had conversations with some of my friends out here that have had really difficult challenging conversations where this is this is a very real life issue for some it's a justice issue for some it's a Bible issue for something right it's all intermixed in that maybe both of you can give us a quick five-minute summary on what do you think actually is the way forward for this I mean we just had the United Methodist Church news hit and virtually every major denomination in our country is now splitting and dividing over this so the this just this happening I think is beautiful and miraculous and I'd love to hear your take your thoughts on where do we go from here I don't know any of you either of you can go forward I'm go first I think in terms of tone posture for those who are on the so-called traditional side of this you believe in traditional marriage you're on my side for instance if we don't if we don't create a much better culture where LGBT people can and I truly mean it's flourish or at the very least be able to wrestle out loud beat listen to I can't tell you how many stories I hear from people is raising church feni's gay but puberty and all I wanted was for somebody to listen to my story just like you don't you don't need to agree with me whatever just just can you give me time to listen to me hear me out why do I have to wrestle alone why do I have to leave the church to find love and community why do I have to leave the Christian community that of Jesus followers I have to leave that to find love and community and care and just just listening you can be the most fundamentalist person in here if you actually believe the Bible that's we need to become a community where people can wrestle out loud and listen 83% of LGBT people were raised in the church Christian Church its millions and millions and millions and millions of people raised in our pews 51% have left by the time they turn or after they turn 18 no that's not a real shocker only three percent said the number one reason why the left is because of the theological teaching of marriage and section meaning 97% of LGBT people who were raised in the church as millions and millions and millions of people are leaving because 18 percent I didn't feel safe at church I think 14 percent said nobody ever listened to me relational disconnect with leaders in congruence between teaching and practice in other words hypocrisy like Here I am sitting in a church and you know that guy's been divorced and remarried five times and that guy's having an affair and that elders addicted to porn and that guy's addicted to porn and that guy's addicted to porn and that guy's addicted to porn and which is fine we're all broken racino whatever but like how come how come I can't say oh I'm wrestling with an attraction to the same sex or I even though I'm a biological man I feel like a woman and why can't we all wrestle out loud in that context we're gonna agree to disagree on on sexual ethics in marriage and again I think they're significant disagreements and and yeah we should more time to shop to go through it all but if you are on the traditional side I do believe it's not this if I don't like the phrase traditional marriage because it's like oh we believe it just because a tradition like I just mean if you google presses sprinkle and tradition you know I can get a lot of hits like I'm not I don't just oh this is what we always believe no like I just not into that at all we don't I think there is ethical theological logical historical biblical credibility to the so-called traditional view in marriage I don't think it means you're a homophobe I don't think it means you are blindly just following this at the same time if we don't become if we don't embody the kindness of God that leads to repentance then we're failing to be the church that Jesus has called us to be ask Oscar LGBT friend or if you're LGBT here like what do you think of the church what comes to mind Christian Church Oh kindness if I want experience kindness oh I find the nearest church if I just want to be wrapped in kindness I go to the nearest church and and and the more Bible believing it is that's where I'm gonna go church kindness know you like sober until that is the response we are failing to embody the the grace of Christ as we ought we are the embodiment of Christ's presence on earth the kindness of God leads to repentance I mean this is not this is 101 stuff right but that has not been our reputation what's that statistic that gave lions akin demanded above 14 years ago they surveyed non-believers what do you think of when you think of the church the number one response not Jesus grace not even like truth or Bible it was 91% anti-homosexual I mean we are failing to embody the kindness of God as we ought so we absolutely need to do that our our truth will not be heard until our grace is felt if you're passionate about the truth maybe you're like truth truth you struggle with grace that's fine nobody will care about your truth until they feel your love and first of all Preston how how do the people in this church know that everybody is struggling with porn what is going on in this church I always assumed when I see people with their cell phones in church that they're taking my mic higher it's the back row Baptist you got to keep an eye on those guys so yeah I look we can't we can't gloss over this disagreement and and I think it's important that you hear it from my side that we can't gloss over the disagreement because I think there are a lot of people on my side who think that the well I think there's a lot of people on both sides who think that the answer is either to not talk about it or let's just agree to disagree and you know not have any church you know policy is one way or the other and I and I don't think that's helpful because I think we need to get it right we just don't agree on what getting it right means that said as long as there is a disagreement in the church about what getting it right looks like I think there are ways that even within these two separate theological positions on marriage we can still get it right in a lot of other ways as we still work through the the marriage disagreement and and one of those is I absolutely think that it is important if you if you agree with me it is important not to assume that folks on Preston's side of this are as he said are homophobes I don't think Preston is a homophobe Preston has been nothing but kind and gracious to me and he is travelling around and speaking to folks who are on his side of this encouraging them to be more kind and gracious and to listen to people and to use the right terminology and everything there are things he says that I don't agree with there are times that you know if I were sitting in the audience of one of his things there are times that I would want to jump up and be like no I say no to that but but there is absolutely no question that this is a guy who loves and wants to see the church be more loving and be a place where everybody truly feels welcome not just in a sort of all our welcome you know statement on the bulletin but but really in a felt livid way and that's important and I think it's important that we that we get to know each other and and care about each other as human beings one of the things that Preston and I got to do before we came out on the stage was actually sit down and talk about about our lives actually he didn't ask a lot of questions and I talked more which I know is it surprised everybody who knows me um but like that was really helpful because because if we know each other then then we can work through this as brothers and sisters in Christ there is one of my favorite quotes is by Tim Keller who says this he says to be loved but not known is comforting but superficial to be loved but not known is comforting but superficial to be known and not loved is our greatest fear but to be fully known and truly loved is well a lot like being loved by God it is what we need more than anything and that is what our churches need to be places where somebody whatever they look like whoever they're in a relationship with however they're dressed whatever pronouns they use can walk in the door and know that they will be known and loved and that's I think where we where we start and we can do that on on both sides of this divide that's awesome thank you guys so much [Applause] [Music] [Music] well I hope you enjoyed this conversation I have to admit I do have one big regret about it but first let me say thanks to Preston for being willing to dialogue with me and to Kevin nooner and spark church for hosting this event by the way if you're in the Bay Area please check out spark Church you can find them online at spark dot Church okay so my one regret I wish that we had had time to dig into Scripture we really didn't get that much time to go there and I think it's an important part of the conversation so if that's something you're looking for I have made an entire video on just that subject you can find it here or if you'd like more bible resources including a bible debate visit my website at geeky just and.com slash bible and if you enjoyed this and would like more nuanced conversations please like and subscribe and consider supporting me on patreon or inviting me to your church get all the details at geeky Justin com

Channel: GeekyJustin

Views: 38,422

Rating: 4.7336955 out of 5

Keywords: Justin Lee, debate, dialogue, homosexuality, Bible, church, Christianity, GeekyJustin, LGBT, LGBTQ, gay, Christian

Id: SHs2SHdSz_Q

Length: 86min 56sec (5216 seconds)

Published: Mon Jul 08 2019