LGBTQ+ opposers and supporters debate LGBTQ+ rights in Kenya and what they think about Uganda | LNN

violence will come from the church violence will come from you that name human right you'll say this is my right I have the right to get married why are you discriminating me I'm a Believer this is my church I want to get married then they'll come and tell me as a pastor no why are you discriminating them you cannot discriminate against sex that word will be misused it has already been misused there was outrage when people thought that it was Christians but where did the outrage go when we found out that it was a homosexual where was the outrage from the lgbtq community when they found out that one of their own had murdered one of their own and something that I hear a lot is this conflating of queer people and protecting our children and I think we need to be mindful of the words we say as if we are saying that a queer person just existing is a threat to children no one should have the rights in this Society to say you want to sleep with my child and I have nothing to say about it because it is enshrined in law no we will not open that door why our children need to be protected I'm not responsible for coming to your home and telling you Pastor T this program has this this don't show your child that is not my responsibility that will be as much as me imposing in your home and how you run your things but why is then the problem transferred to lgbtq people a lot of these stories come from the church where when they ask somebody what happens to them who someone who is gay they happen they ask what happened to them and it's because they were abused and and all these things so now it is almost like corrective I was raped by a woman I didn't become gay military Kenya is identify foreign [Music] to you and a warm welcome to this special edition of LNS my name is Lynn Gogi now they say A promise is a debt and here I am part two of the March awaited conversation and I am so honored to have people here who have also interacted with before and we said even before we started this conversation we are here to have a fruitful conversation so we are going to keep it respectful and thank you so much for your views on our part one of this conversation guys I love that we are having these talks I love that we are trying to create awareness I love that we are giving everyone a space to be able to talk about their own life with zero judgment and I know this is the only way we can be able to progress our nation and I'm also really eager to hear what you have to say so you know on the comment section leave your views keep respectful guys and now I will not say much please without further Ado please allow me to let my incredible guests introduce themselves good morning where they start anywhere so ladies fast all right please go all right um good morning and uh really glad to be back here yeah um my name is Angelina yes um I'm a mother yeah of four children and I'm here because I'm passionate about conversations that deal with family and values yes and I have been a chaplain and served in an institution for the last 24 years and so it is my joy to be able to be back here and discuss further yes on this very pertinent conversation yeah really nice to see you again yes and for the purpose of before everyone before the rest introduce themselves I did say on the last one that I would put your social handles so if you can also tell us your social handles or away someone can contact you so it appears with your name right here before I forget again all right yes so I'm on YouTube I'm on Facebook Anthony good thank you so much yeah next it's free yeah uh so my name is Mary Liz buber I am a human rights activist and Defender and I also like to refresh myself as a black queer radical angry intersectional feminist yes and those are very particular because I mean going by Manda Mano Monday and Thursday and all the mandamanas to come you have every reason to be angry as Kenyans because of everything that is happening um I work on children's and women's rights but particularly for the last uh seven eight years going uh you work particularly on lgbtq rights uh in this country and I'm happy to be here to have this conversation because one of the reason I actually even tagged you in the things that I was posting yes is because I felt really frustrated by their trajectory in the conversation last time was taking okay and it's very very fundamental that when we're speaking about conversations about people yes our conversations on the the proper laws and guidelines that you know guide us as a country okay so I felt it's important for us to be here today to be able to have that conversation and I'm excited to see what this is all about and there's something he's saying we are not uh yeah we are all friends and all that kind of stuff I like to say we don't have to be friends we just don't have to be hateful and you know treat each other badly we can have conversations without being friends but we can have very simple you'll find me everywhere but for purposes of specificity on YouTube I am Bieber and Kat on uh Instagram and B1 cut on Facebook and billboard my release on Instagram on Twitter and Tick Tock I am clearly so okay yes all right thank you really nice to have you and thank you for honoring the request to be part of this conversation I wanna know where according to you we went wrong on the last conversation and I can't wait to hear these views yes yeah thank you Lynn for having me here thank you for holding the space my name is emungu Calavera I am a women's rights expert I am agenda development and inclusion specialist and I'm a pan-african feminist I'm very happy to be here and also like Mary Lisa I had some concerns with last conversation and I'm hoping that here today we can have a broader one and really unpack are there things that we misunderstood that we'd like to understand today okay yeah great handle so I'm not Super Active on on socials but I'm not on Tick Tock and everything yes of course she's a radical activist and I appreciate that but I can be reached on email ecale Vera yahoo.com okay I'm fairly responsible all right that's wonderful yeah and the preach of the Gospel of Jesus Christ um uh I'm passionate I'm a father allow me not to sit just as a pastor sometimes people tend to weaponize religion yes so I'm a father with a daughter and a boy and I'm an activist to live at Kenya where they can grow in yeah in terms of values yes yes you come highly recommended on the comment section I like you know sometimes when they ask me to do something I like doing it okay because they are the consumers of our products that we talk about it so for everyone that requested for Pastor T there he goes but thank you for actually thank you for anytime I ask you to be part of the conversation you know they say energy is energy yes yes Pastor Tim Wang everywhere Tick Tock YouTube Facebook everywhere Tim Wang okay yes good yes awesome uh so my name is Tim Simon bamboo Kimani um former musani artist uh I'm an author also businessman uh husband to uh Erica Kimani and uh father of two very beautiful children a boy and a girl I'm a Bible activist but I wasn't always one I was a hip-hop head I grew up in the U.S so I was you know hip-hop was ingrained in my blood um I have a history in Hollywood so um you know I think I'll be kind of bringing a bit of that perspective I'm an author also of the book The Truth About Money yes and I really give all you guys a free a free a free copy by the way absolutely absolutely thank you for having me by the way it's an honor to be here and yeah I I converted to Christianity when I found out you know what's really going on in Hollywood and um how it's such a demonic satanic agenda that's bigger than you know just giftings and talents and whatever we were passionate about it wasn't about that it wasn't about us it was bigger than us so so you know I come from that background yes so yes it's really nice to have you I was just telling you earlier I have looked for this man for so long and I kept saying when time is right yeah God makes everything beautiful so welcome and thank you so much for making timer I will feel fun growing up so now you're wondering that's where you disappeared because I'm trying to remember is the song the song that I knew went forward and be like which which one is that I'm trying to remember okay no eventually because I mean YouTube is right here yes so like let's be done here I wouldn't even have known it was you before you introduce yourself yes because I'm like I've always wondered where you went to but also like I mean just because you're a celebrity or does it mean we're entitled to where you are and all that kind of stuff so just like appreciating that so hearing that I'm like oh yes that's where you want to yeah welcome thank you yes my man yeah my name is [Music] I'm also known as Rick's uh it's my stage name I'm a writer I'm a poet I'm a mental health activist I work with sexually abused boys and men I run a safe space for for them I use storytelling for healing and connection especially in regards to conversations around sexuality masculinity and childhood trauma okay as somebody who grew up in a very violent home and the many traumas that came out of that and having to understand how there's so much violence in our culture that ends up informing even how we see life how we behave how we parents how we do all these things how we show up in relationships I felt as a creative as an artist as an artist my work is to go deep into the places my Society does not understand and create a language so that I can make people understand in their Consciousness that we are so much more than how we were taught to be in many aspects of life but also to enable us to be more curious about The Human Experience beyond what we always have thought is right you know yeah so I write also a lot about sex because it's a subject that has been you know and for me I got to a place in my life and I asked myself why am I fearing why am I living in fear um and why is it that I've not even being taught to even love my own body you know um so I I love having these bold conversations and I guess with the first time when uh you put out the video on Instagram um I I did share my comments there and I mean it solicited a lot of conversation as well and um uh you know it's a beautiful day that I'm here I must also say I grew up as a really staunchy man of bamboo and pasta tea as well um like then I think early 2000 2010 those years um and so it's just appreciative of their gifts for for what they're doing also with their lives and thank you good to see you again and thank you for honoring the request to be part of this conversation I realize I've forgotten to ask what your handles are so maybe you can give us your handles yeah yeah on Instagram and Twitter that's Rix poets LinkedIn Facebook okay yes so on Twitter it's uh the real bamboo and Instagram it's uh bamboo the hip-hop profit yes yeah and um on YouTube you can find us at life is spiritual yes doing great work there with your lady thank you I I consume the content so thank you so much guys I wanna get straight into the conversation of the day Pastor T you have introduced yourself as a radical man of God a father and a husband what is your standard on the lgbtq community when I got born again I identified with a kingdom which is the Kingdom of Light finally fully dictated by the scriptures when you say you're born again you are mandated to obey what is written Jesus said to them that love me obey my what and the scripture stand is very clear God created a man and a woman and the union should be between a man and a woman for prosperity for children for Godly seed and that is the engagement so my stand is the stand of the Bible because I'm father believer before anything else and that's the stand of the Bible and it's very clear also prophetically in the Book of Luke chapter number 17 from verse 26 going on when Jesus gave the predictions of the second coming we need to get clearly the Bible is one of the undist and Undisputed prophetic book even secular writers and readers will tell you when you read this prophecies predictions if they want to call that is very clear he spoke as it was two scenarios the days of Noah and the days of of lot now the first scenario of what we might consider lgbtq scenario is in the Book of Genesis chapter number 19 where a whole Community was gay and the angels get in that community and the men want to sodomize them hence the name Sodom and Gomorrah and you know judgment came fire came so when I do a diagnosis of that particular scenario it creates a very prophetic environment of the time the spirit and the age you are living in because since the death of Jesus two thousand years ago we've never had a conversation of lgbtq like now so we must ask our question why now why is it being funded why is it becoming so popular could we be dealing with something Beyond logic behavior and deal with the spirit of the age so I'll be here possibly to just have that conversation give a spiritual view concerning the matter and living engage even from our intellectual view so my view is it's anti-god and anything that is anti-god is paraphrased under what we call the Antichrist Spirit which is an end time Spirit yeah all right antonina yes what is your stand here my stand is because your question was very specific about the LGBT community yes and my tick is from having interacted with particular um people especially young people who have gone through certain abusive realities it made me research a little bit further to understand what is really happening and you may you may remember I usually make this statement a lot step back step back and ask yourself what is really happening so from a place of individuals I my take is that individuals who are broken and hurting and are in that space need to be rescued need to be approached with compassion need to be seen as victims or of something Beyond them and so the the approach that I believe Jesus would have towards them is that one of Let's cover you but let's get you sorted let's get you healed and whole let's have um probably if it is in a facility or conversations that can get you out because they are literally crying out for help nevertheless in addition to that I came to realize this is bigger this is so much bigger there is a systemic intention to change how families work how marriages work behind it is a very diabolical agenda that is geared towards depopulation and how do you emasculate and depopulate a people it is you go to that unit that brings forth as and is entrusted with you know procreation and make sure that you turn things around so that there is now a system and this is what I I have been an advocate for that let's understand that even God is against that system that system that gets people to abuse others so that they end up as victims the first category that I talked about this system where you will find people who are pro-assetting agenda but they themselves may not even be into it because you will hear they're married heterosexual marriages you will hear they want to adopt babies but they are pro-ass system that destroys the very idea and the very unique the very safe sacred unit where children should be brought forth cared for raised and empowered so that system that system is an enemy and anyone who's watching this for the first time I would encourage you know revisiting the part one because Dr Eda belabored the fact that this conversation wasn't there forever all right but beginning the 1960s some people crafted and conjured up a conversation and determined we will fund this we will uh you know we're going to be we're even going to go forceful so that we try change the laws of given lands and really that's why we're here we're not here in 2022 why because something happened in 2023 not very long ago where the Supreme Court determined a certain judgment that got people who care about families and life agitated and concerned that why would you even visit the Constitution to change certain terminology so that is my two-pronged Approach on this and for the system I have no kind kindness it is to vehemently resist it and to call on anyone who cares for children anyone who believes in family and values and virtues calling on all African people to say this system is an enemy and anyone who is oiling it anyone who is funding it anyone who's advocating it they need to be called out and be done you know that you know confronted as much as possible and this conversation in our laws the legislative processes whatever is happening in the courts there shouldn't be activism towards that witch we know even as Kenyans this is Criminal thank you bongo what's your stand my stand um is like Pastor T said it's biblical um it is based on the scriptures which were written over thousands of years um my stand is also from a background of the entertainment scene and the power of influence that music entertainment movies uh series and what have you has on the general public as you know from being an artist myself and an Entertainer and a writer and a Creator and a producer and an innovator I understand the power that we wield as as such and we can create the kind of societies we want literally and so um from a background of uh growing up in the United States and having had a a very violent confrontation with uh with homosexual people um guys uh they actually beat me up when I was about 12 years old and um you know these are people who are probably 24 25 years old and I was just a young boy but um these gay guys beat me to a pope like I've never been beaten like that uh since that time till this day and they actually broke my nose till this day my nose has it because you see like a little bump on my nose yeah it never quite healed properly my heart healed and as a Christian I learned to forgive them but um you know the mark remained on my face as a reminder that this is not a gentle movement they are not victims and they are not gentle they are extremely violent and they will impose their will upon society and they will stop at nothing they are Relentless and the spirit behind it is evil it is dark now people who practice it might not understand this they've just been inducted they've been introduced they hang out with people who are gay and they'll find that these non-governmental organizations will fund them the Rockefeller foundational fandom the uh Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation will fund them they have Limitless amounts of money they'll pour money into this however they also need to know that when you they find out that you're sick when they find out that you have HIV they'll turn their backs on you and they'll abandon you um as as you know as I as I recovered from that as I became a Christian as I as I learned how what the music industry and the entertainment industry is about in the United States of America that it wasn't about our talent it wasn't about our gifts it wasn't about our ability to write great records it was about can we push fornication can we push sex to children can we get 14 and 15 year olds to have sex so that they get pregnant um start taking like what Chang said start taking pills can we sell them can we sell them um what do we call it you know can we sell them condoms can we sell them pills can we get them to have uh five or six abortions by the time they're 18 years old if we can get more abortions out of them we can get their fetuses it's a nefarious industry it is a ruthless cycle it does not stop so um you know my background is more and and even more so on the spiritual aspect of it because life itself is spiritual um one of the things that you learn as a Christian and as a Believer is that the physical world is dominated by spiritual influences there is a spirit realm and there is a physical world and oftentimes we as human beings interact with that spiritual Realm through our dreams we're able to see it we're able to witness it in our dreams when we wake up in the physical world we say wow that was a crazy dream but that was an indication of what is happening to you spiritually and that's God's way of communicating with you oftentimes he communicates through dreams and so um my background is is that more or less and I think you know Kenyans came to know me because of songs like compare guys yeah yeah yeah and so um having released that music and and gone back to the States I grew up in the states I came to Kenya when I was about 15 I went back to the States worked in Hollywood I got to interact with some of the biggest stars like Akon and and just worked in what we call P1 cities like in Atlanta um those are cities where that can influence the whole world in terms of music and culture P1 city is a is like New York that can influence the whole world in terms of music and culture uh Los Angeles is another one and I worked in all three cities so I understand what this monster is and what it can become um I'm not against any people I don't believe in being against people I don't believe that any kind of violence should be done against any person because of their sexual orientation or because of what they believe or or what have you I don't believe that they should be denied rights because of their sexual orientation I do believe in the rule of law that people should all all obey um the rule of law and that we should respect different cultures that come from different nations um but the spiritual aspect of this is that it will grow what we're looking at in Kenya it's in its baby stages in America it's a full-grown adult and gay rights it will go beyond just um their uh right to associate it will go beyond just their right to be recognized it will go into we are going to teach your children we're going to put gay sex in children's books we are going to cultivate um a culture of confusion where a child does not know whether he's male or female you know we are going to create more species more genders we are going to remove God vehemently out of culture completely their goal is to remove salt and the memory of God especially and specifically the name of Jesus to remove it completely and replace it with an antichrist culture to prepare the world for the coming of a one world government and a one world leader who himself is also according to Daniel 11 37 a homosexual so what we're seeing is the ongoing movement and human progress toward that nefarious goal of gathering the entire world under a United Nations and one world government under one leader who is himself a homosexual and needs that energy to be in societies around the world so that he can rule okay yes all right all right wow today everyone is calm okay yes um should we go this way or you want to take it maybe here yeah so um my stand on lgbtq rights is really to Center the conversation in terms of Human Rights I think there are very many things we can disagree on maybe I'm a Christian or I'm not I'm a Muslim or I'm not I'm Baha'i I'm not I'm a Jew I'm not I'm black or I'm white but before we are any of these things the one thing we can all agree on is that we are human first and while I respect other people's religious views and religious inclinations I am also very aware that sometimes these views and these inclinations lead to hateful words hateful words beget helpful actions hateful actions begate hateful mindsets which beget hateful structures and then systems and I've had the word about like there's an agenda that there's a push and really the thing that I see in terms of queer people maybe their only agenda exists that exists is that they want their full human rights and to be able to experience their full human rights bamboo you have said that you have nothing against people exercising their rights and in the same vein you say that oh the freedom of Association right is just the beginning so what I'm hearing people say is that we will deny you your rights because we are afraid of a thing that we have not yet seen and I think we are constructing a lot around this agenda that really doesn't exist and something that I hear a lot is this conflating of queer people and protecting our children and I think we need to be mindful of the words we say as if we are saying that a queer person just existing is a threat to children and that is absolutely not true someone who abuses children abuses children because of their own proclivities because of maybe something that happened in their past because maybe something that happened in the adulthood but that does not mean that a queer person existing in the world in their fullness means that they are a threat to your child and I think we need to push back against some of these falsehoods that are being spread because they actually have a real impact on people's lives queer people are more likely to face physical violence and I've heard your story about facing physical violence from queer people but they did not attack you because they are queer people they attacked you because they are maybe hateful people because they had their own agenda because they did not respect your Humanity so I think it comes back to respecting other people's Humanity before we say we are different or we are the same we are first of all humans so to the Supreme Court ruling that you've just mentioned that Supreme Court ruling was 10 years in the making in the beginning it was not ruled in the favor of the national gay and lesbian Human Rights Commission but really if you read the Judgment one of the things that the judges say is that this ruling is meant to protect the rights and freedoms of Association under article 36 of the Constitution really that's it you know I know maybe for Christians they would love a world where the Bible is the governing document for everything but unfortunately that is not the world that we live in currently we live in a world where we are bound to coexist and if we don't coexist we shall destroy each other so mine is not to say that if you're a Christian you must do something or you must support the queer movement but mine is to say do you see that this is fast and fundamentally are rights-based conversation and that when you spread falsehoods about people being dangerous to Children you actually take yourself away from protecting children from the actual people who are dangerous to them so if you're going to look at the systems and the bigger conversation we need to look at the right place and the right place is not saying oh if I limit your rights then I will experience my food right that's not how a society works and a society that goes about oppressing the most minoritized people one day it will be them and the next day it will be you I would much rather live in a society where even the most minoritized people are able to experience their full rights and live out their full identity than live in a society where it's underpinned by hate and falsehoods and violence that decides oh you people are expendable you are you can be let go of and then one day to be them and then the next day it will be you because no one is safe in a society that denies the minorities their rights and really that's that's my opinion at the end of the day okay thank you Ricks um now as uh I I am an ally yes lgbtqia um Community as somebody who grew up in a church um and my my parents were believers Myself by that extension I grew up in a Christian home and one of the most confusing things was I used to see as though there was faith and then there was real life they were they were barely ever together of course there were certain components like Fellowship which I love very much like Community like music which I love very much but when it came to values things are not always together and I started questioning from a very young age because again of not only what I saw with my dad at home or how sometimes also my mom was violent but also my my neighborhood my culture what I saw on TV and and all those things so when I began questioning in my early life I also was very um uh I didn't condone the idea of gayism as well I didn't condone all those things because of the the foundation that the church gave me your Christianity gave me for that matter but then I got to a point of my life and I asked them I asked myself why am I carrying this button you know I also used to like fear oh so now they they love to be everywhere on TV you know the Billboards the gays in everywhere and everything and at some point actually I think this was around 2011 2012 like some some entertainment series started like we started watching actually uh on TV like Casey move like probably not more prominent and I was uncomfortable at the time just just seeing dance like oh this goes way much against what I think is right but then as I'm growing as a person I'm asking myself why why am I carrying this burden of saying telling people this is what they must be you know and that's and as I grew up then I asked myself who am I when I'm not reading a Bible who am I when I am not identifying as a Christian will I be loving still will I be caring still will I be kind still you know and the fact that uh I was also not taught the history of that Bible itself and how it came to be the history of that Christianity was not really touched me as a Believer as as it as it is for most most Believers as well you're just given this thing you have to take it and all that but when it comes to matters around sexuality what I came to learn is that we have a very limited understanding of who human beings really are because we ran with one major story and the major story is the religious story and most times from the abrahamic religions right all of us where the communities we come from we all had our stories of origin yeah and if I'm alone my origin did not have to clash with the merus it didn't have to clash with the geicoyus he didn't have to clash with the turkanas I just appreciated oh that's the story of your people you know now when I think about how nature is many times we think of nature as a very binary concept where it's just male and female black whites and all that but if you walked into a natural forest for example there are trees of all kind of species Nature by Design is diverse you know Nature by Design is diverse so even with human beings not only will races be different not only will cultures be different not only will um mannerisms and personality be different before we think of any religion or anything just nature itself it also means just by Design sexualities will also be different without thinking too much about it you know what I mean so I figured man I don't need to come to you and tell you you must identify as this or that you know uh but if if you're being violent for example and even the ideal violence as well um I feel like what I'm struggling with the most in in this LGBT conversation and and um in our country Christianity any and even like other like major religions is the idea around like if you identify as kuya then you're you're posing a threat to to family family values and then you say this is not African culture right um without appreciating that queer people existed in Africa before the idea of the concept of Christianity got here as well before the concept of religion got here as well the same way many of our stories were taken away from us is also the same way we are not aware that queer people existed here and if I go by the fact that nature is also diverse everywhere queer people existed everywhere okay so um as time goes by when we talk about how minority groups are vandalized I would say not even just oppressed they are vandalized and in our idea you know idea like in real life we start with what we see first it's women who are being who are being oppressed as a quote-unquote minority group and then it's three equals down to black white people you know and then in other ways it goes to religious and religious people you know and then it otherwise it goes to heterosexuals and and and and and gay people you know it goes to all these lenses now if I come to you lean and I assume that what I know is what must be right and you say because you know you are right then I cannot go to hospital and get treatment I cannot get a job I cannot um marry somebody whom I am choosing you know because as Pastor T said the first Contact of homosexuality in the Bible was actually abuse it was from abuse it was not confirmed for sure the same way bamboo experienced it it wasn't concerned it was abuse we need to call it for it it was it was abuse it wasn't because this people are homosexuals then now they are using this homosexuality to gain dominance over people that is a violent act you get what I mean the same way heterosexuals also are very violent in many many many other ways that we must lose sleep for and me I'm saying I wish this same verb that um a religion as used against uh homosexual people of the queer people I wish we would also lose sleep you know over how the number of injustices that every day people are going through in this country and in this world I wish it was like with the same verb and not to say that Christianity is not doing its part or religious people are not doing their part because there are there have been Lobby groups for that and in their day-to-day lives yes there are ways that which they try to stand up for what is right but it's the idea that I can control how much you can enjoy in your life by me saying that this is evil and I'm the one who holds what is right it is not upon me and I would actually still like to borrow from the same text that that says however much you have if you are not operating from a place of love all of it is nothing really yeah and that's your stand yes yes really uh thank you so much um I think uh for me the first thing I would like to say is to finally first affirm that yes I'm a member of the lgbtq community I identify as lesbian and non-binary person and essentially my two colleagues have covered most of it but my stand is essentially born off of the fact that listening to their experiences both of them all of them the experiences I their their beliefs are informed by their experiences which is a hundred percent a human nature thing right went through your experiences and your experiences brought you there but in the same breath they use those experiences to take away from lgbtq people having their own experiences first off this this conversation and even in the last conversation she highlighted that Chiang highlighted hugely about you know an agenda to first of all I don't believe there is anything wrong with having an agenda if you didn't have an agenda we wouldn't be here so I believe like life in general is about agendas if we didn't have an agenda we all wouldn't have woken up to come here today we wouldn't have woken up to go do our business today right we woke up with an agenda so having an agenda is absolutely okay but understanding what the agenda is is where we all miss the mark completely with the lgbtq community because I've had her say several times about organizations and he also mentioned some Melinda gets and Rockefeller and all that kind of stuff and that they fund people to be LGBT even Sometimes some of them don't even are not even lgbtq and all that kind of stuff and I constantly ask myself and I need human beings to begin asking themselves questions why will Medina gets fund people who are not even gay while the release is here gay and I'm not funded like literally it's about to be end of month and I'm gonna hustle really hard to get my my rent right if I was gonna be funded truly truly and I wanted to to like ask all of us here generally if it's true that queer people are being funded to be who we are right do you think I'd be here having conversation with you I don't think I'd be here I'd probably be traveling somewhere because I have money I'm being funded right but the reason I come here to have conversation is because they the reality has us has been painted versus the reality the way things happen on the ground are totally different and all of it zeros down to we it's okay for us to have religious beliefs for those who have them because I'm not a Christian I don't have religious beliefs on neither an atheist I'm a human being and I believe totally the concept of I live you live you have a right to life your right to life is reliant on me ensuring that you actually exercise it and the mind relies on you ensuring that I exercise mine right and that is like literally the basic of humanity that if I'm if I'm a criminal I'm rendering risks unsafe and that's that on that and so looking at it from that perspective religious people can have their beliefs I'm a queer person who doesn't have religious beliefs but a lot of other queer people believe in God they go to church and all that kind of stuff that doesn't invalidate their existence as human beings right and so the one thing that I've been asking myself and if you interact with me on my social media you'll see I said recently the thing about the thing that makes me struggle with religion or rather that made me struggle with religion so much until I realized I I don't want to associate myself with that institution is the fact that religion makes it comfortable for for aspects of abuse and justification of it right for example I'll use the Catholic Church as a person who grew up in a Catholic Church four years on end we've had so many stories of of rapists and pedophiles who are at priests and pastors right is it a matching experience that all and most of the times these pastors and Priests whoever they targeted were alter boys because Altar Boys served if you're grew up in Catholic you know older boys that those young boys who serve as uh you know people who helped the the priests and to get the service running and all that kind of stuff and most of these in in 20 I think in 20 12 or 2013 we had a Facebook conversation and people are coming out with confessions boys coming up out with confessions about how different priests in different churches you know or pedophiles and sexually defiled them and all that kind of stuff it doesn't match the statistics that all these priests and all these victims who went through all these abuse are gay now that's first and foremost right because just because you've gone through any kind of abuse which spills over to the next point that I want to say and I also had it in the previous conversation using people's abusive experiences to D to invalidate the humanity as human beings I'm a queer person Rick's is a heterosexual person bamboo is a heterosexual person bamboo went through abuse beaten up by people who later he came to realize are gay people and all that kind of stuff nothing takes away from the fact that bamboo went through violence and the people who beat him whether they were gay whether they would say it at the end of the day the law should take its cause not because these people are gay but because these people are violent the law should take its cause on anyone who was an abuser to someone not because of the sexuality of a person because just because I'm I'm a queer person doesn't mean anyone should come and arrest me because of I'm queer I'm not an abuser I've worked with children in different schools across the country there's no day my name has come up as being an abuser or recruiting and or having conversations with kids about being gay and anything like that and my work is guaranteed my work is seen I go through Authority positions and all that kind of stuff and I talk to these people and I have conversation with them my sexuality is mine it has nothing to do with people information however another conversation misinformation we talk a lot about these things but we talk about them from a point of misinformation we consume what we want to consume because of our beliefs which is absolutely okay but we forget lean if I believe one plus one is two doesn't mean I should walk around the world thinking everyone believed the same thing because apparently with the love and charge they believe one because one is one because when you get married to your partner you become one that's what they normally say right but in mathematically one plus one is two that and that is scientific proof but everyone has their belief according everyone has their opinion according to what they believe in and that's absolutely okay but why should you believe criminalize another person that brings me to another thing again as such young was speaking she highlighted hugely about religion and the standpoint of religion and God and all that kind of stuff and then he went I had to say it's criminal in the Constitution the double standard of it all Kenya is a country that is Guided by the Constitution yes many people are believers absolutely right yeah but that doesn't mean if a commit a crime today a pastor will come and arrest me a pastor can't arrest me it's a police who will come and arrest me right a police will take me to a police station or to to to to to jail or to whatever it is I'll be taken but it will be through a legal process it won't be through a religious process anyone can come with their opinions and beliefs but it will be true a legal process that I'll be told me release committed this crime release is guilty of this cry may lead us to appear in court that may release has been sentenced and may release will go to jail for this crime up to that point we agree and up to that point this country has made a lot of stride with regards to litigation and law about the same as Calavera had pointed out this case by Miguel hack had been in court for the last 10 years she said this conversation is happening now because it just has happened in 2023 but that's not true the only difference is that the rulings in the past most of them have been against the lgbtq community another evidence that most of the time when we base our opinions on religion religion is comfortable with abuse because every time all these rulings happen that criminalize lgbtq people we die that's the saddest part about it it's not just a ruling it's a ruling that gives people power and I can't tell you the amount of people who have gone through violence since this ruling we had recently and the worst part is we can't even report it anywhere because if you go to the police with how heightened things are at the moment you could end up being an even further victim of a lot of things disappearing and all that kind of stuff and we are not trying to put ourselves through those things now there could be organizations that come up with their agendas and that's absolutely okay but that should not take away from a human from a human being under their experience to life right 8 and that is founded on I live in this world you live in this world we are all human beings you could have your Christian beliefs and all that kind of stuff absolutely but in the eyes of law they don't matter because the law is not justified by religion I don't think in the Constitution there is anywhere where it says the reason we have this law is because Luke Chapter so and so said ABCD it purely says because if we don't have this this is a violation of Human Rights and so 10 years that case had been in court in 2019 the ruling on that case was made when the ruling was made it was in favor of the lgbtq community to have right to Association guess who went to court to petition it it was the NGO board we like saying organizations fund this work but NGO but we know it's literally all organizations in Kenya under that umbrella right and they went in content they they opposed it and then it had to be taken back to court that time it was a bench of seven judges this time it was a bench of three judges and they they went through the nitty-gritties of the whole conversation and all that kind of stuff and in truth we all do have rights to associate Lynn right now we are associating do you know if that was not passed it would be criminal for you to have us here do you know that but in reality is it criminal for us to be here it's not criminal because I'm not doing anything here I don't think I'm here telling you come with your children I'm trying to take your children and go recruit to them in something I don't think any of that conversation came up and so that ruling was necessary because of that and and so 2019 that happened and then recently now the ruling came out in favor to have to allow people right to Association but even before that we've had different rulings and that is where I find a problem with everything for us lgbtq people any operation that we Face we don't take it up with attacking people and abusing people and he used that I'm saying this movement is very violent show me the violence we do because I don't think and I will honestly 100 believe it's not wrong if I see someone and they like them and they tell them I like them if they don't like me they just have to tell me I don't like you or I am straight for example I am straight I don't like you right because the opposite is also true yes I'm glad you said I'm glad she said show me show me the violence yeah um and I'll just give this quick answer real quick and then you can continue okay you said show me the violence no no just a second just a second I'm a Believer I was silence yeah because I'm a Believer take notes and then like respond when it's your time to speak so that I can speak it with you immediately yeah so the the I the I the whole idea of violence is if uh if a lesbian for example rape someone or if a gay man rape someone I'm not gonna sit here and be the one to say he's gay leave him alone I'm gonna be the one on the front line also saying just because you're gay doesn't mean you're free from abusing someone because that was abuse and me being a queer person doesn't make me immune to because sequences of abuse I if I abuse someone I have to go through the full force of Law and that is the truth on that and if that is what we are going to categorize as violence then like Calaveras say drinks say that I'm gonna say everyone has experienced violence at some point and everyone has sometimes even perpetrated violence at some point and we all have to be held accountable because of that and all these rulings that are there are there in place because of so many things because also constitutionally there's no way it says it's wrong for me to come out and say maybe I'm I'm gay there's everything wrong according to the Constitution Article 162 163 and 165 of the penal code that criminalizes same-sex intimacy right and that is what is criminal and for that to happen I have to be caught in the act because also in 2019 in a court I think in Mombasa or malindi one or the other had a ruling that said it's wrong to take people through the tests for Canal knowledge where I see you and because I tell you I am a lesbian you take me to be tested to be checked or a man tells you he's a gay man you take them to the hospital because that is breach of people's privacy and all that kind of stuff we have litigation we have laws in place we have all that kind of stuff and the reason I think Kenyans are all up in Flames at the moment is because For the First Time our ruling has been made it was made public and then when it was made public even without them understanding it because there's also a lot of butchering of everything including William Samuel to the president of this country he went ahead intentionally a person we paid we pay we pay through our taxes and we pay all the labor that works around him to afford proper lawyers to afford people who can take him through the process of understanding a legal document and he failed to do that and he came out to say words that are going to put the lives of a majority of or I mean of a section of people in this country in danger because by him saying um you know Kenya is not a country where we will allow same-sex marriage the ruling wasn't about same-sex marriage that is a whole conversation that even as the lgbtq community if you go from organization to organization organization and check their mandate for the next 20 years they don't ask them sex marriage in their mind because that is some something that we have to work towards these other more important rights like access to healthcare services like access to right to life because we we now we have had to stay in my house and literally just tell people if I'm gonna show up to to somewhere make sure it's a private place that I can guarantee my safety I have had to go on back and forth with my partner because of not having security and how hard getting messages of threats and all that because why because our president or because a nation all because our neighboring country Uganda has now come up with bills that actually criminalize people and take the rights to life of people but also not only that taking the right to life your right to life my right to life your right to life for sitting here and having a conversation with me because it it basically says if you sit with these people if you you'll be looking like you're promoting and all that kind of stuff at the end of the day yes people can have their beliefs I have my own beliefs I don't think anyone cares to ask queer people what beliefs they have but we do have our own beliefs too as human beings right but I don't walk around imposing and we talk a lot about imposing I think the biggest thing that human beings experience that was imposed is religion and God and the belief of all that because then why is it that you believe your stand is right and every other stand that is different without necessarily being wrong is not right yeah and that's your stand yeah I'm glad that now all foreign that was her question yes um she asked where's the virus well that's just taking point a recent uh heinous murder that took place Mr chiloba who perished and sadly and that was a that was a travesty and a tragedy um when the public found out that he was dead activists like bonface monkey came out and the and and other activists were enraged against the the Christian Community you animals you beasts How Could You advocate for this man to be slain the way he was of course we had nothing to do with it and as the police investigated it was discovered that chiloba's homosexual lover was the one who killed him and he didn't just kill him his crime was especially heinous he dismembered him and put him in a metal box and put him in a vehicle and went to a road somewhere and cast his body on the side of the road I'm trying to show you the the spirit of this thing all right there was outrage when people thought that it was Christians but where did the outrage go when we found out that it was a homosexual where was the outrage from the lgbtq community when they found out that one of their own had murdered one of their own bone face was suddenly quiet the whole lgbtq Community there was no but nobody none of you tweeted the word about and being enraged about the violence that takes place inside your own community and that's what they want to do you see they want to weaponize Christianity or faith to look like you say you're a Believer it looks like you want to attack them uh I've I really went through the ruling the analysis from a legal point I sat down with the lawyers and I asked them and someone told me when the church opposed the Constitution part of that clouds is what they were dealing with you see the law is very porous and one word is enough to open a door and they say this definition of discrimination against sex should be well defined because sex has almost six definitions one of them being orientation and the judges used that exactly loophole and we are talking here about an agenda being said before we even get to eat you know some Elite so through that is the door that was used to legalize same-sex marriage I mean lgbtq in South Africa it was one statement now let us look at the escalation I want to believe yeah there is she said money has not been part my background is NGO there are few proposals will write and who are being told if you don't incorporate most at risk population we won't fund you so there was mitigation right now I can tell you one of the leading organization in Kenya's listening to her talk and I can tell there is a training taking place I won't mention the organization but after this I can mention because of legal procedures their their trainings taking place uh so that um the community is trained on how to bring the conversation legally not socially legally and and speak from a rights perspective and ignore all these other fabrics and money is being powered so that so that this preparation how do you respond in such an interview in fact in this meeting the community wins and I'll tell you why this is a principle called advocacy let people talk about it as they talk about it let's release our statistics you see there is no violence the church has not killed anyone but it's a perspective the church is violent we are just preaching the Bible they say when we preach about corruption we preach about forgiveness we we've not skipped apart we preached the whole Council but there is that speaking of why are you talking about this it's in the Bible so of course you begin to see when this law was now interpreted it has opened a door and I know their legal team is very active they're just waiting for the temperatures to go down they will now go to the next step legally the loophole is open it will be legalized same-sex marriage anyone who knows law will tell you if it's not now is a matter of time now let's look at Nations that have entered into that space now when you go to the West now Christianity is where the human rights are fighting for because you identify as a Christian you already look violent they've already managed to paint that perspection where a Christian and even more identified with faith is violent and they don't care about our rights I was just watching a clip online of a young man preaching in the streets and a guy came and asked him do you believe in gayism he said why are you asking me he said because he said I don't believe because the Bible since we began to say you see this religion and now all these false history or religion is a religion of war and all that and always have a problem with human rights and I'll tell you why Uganda makes a ruling overnight America goes live in State House and speaks about it they've never spoken about the the the the the issues literally happening in Uganda children are dying because of this Rebel who is forever in the forest right now children are dying in in baragoy and all these insecurities chiloba dies American state goes live on on media and begins to condemn and you're like how partial is this right that um it's look like when when something happens an agenda you're trying to push it becomes a human right but when it touches on other things it's no longer human right and me doing my own research I think the most contradicting document on this world is the human right philosophy it's one of the most contradicting that I can be pregnant I have the right of abortion but that child does not have a right it doesn't make sense and I'll ask them to educate me because I've tried to understand the right a person goes as a suicide bomber blows up the whole building he's captured on CCTV and then there come and say you know what he needs to go through the legal process nobody should touch him because he has rights the man has killed almost 100 people so I look at this specialty of Rights and I'm like okay what's not happening is it exclusive and altered so what we are trying to bring on board here no one hates them I want to sit here and tell you I have members in my church that I'm working with from the lgbtq community and guess what we went through the analysis and the point was very simple which door was opened in your life and majority of them it is sexual abuse majority either someone was raped I like what you said you know lgbtq was there in our culture even rape was there but this is how they dealt with it and so so when we look at this we see that there are people genuinely they will come and tell you this is how I was reacting to my pain and then you walk with them and give them a platform to heal and they begin to discover by the way it was a reaction of pain the greatest analogy you know I I love reasoning I sat down with a scientist and asked himself what's let's leave the Bible let's talk science what's your take and it was like even science don't understand we can't explain how someone uh wants to date a man and forces the man to dress like a woman instead of dating the real woman and vice versa and he said even the the structure the bone structure of a human being if we die here and we excavated when no flesh nor I know nothing they will identify and say these are ladies and these are men because from from the Genesis of the analogy of the anatomy you came as a certain species you came as a certain gender and that's why now we are coming on this other side we are saying listen what ah this is not just an attack on morals This is war on the identity of our children when I sit where I see it and my understanding which I don't force on anyone when I start to preach to the populance I preach my conviction which is bibilical if you attack the identity of an individual you have attacked their purpose and you've attacked their Destiny the battle begins in answering the question who am I not because of what I've been taught not because of what I have read but who am I discovering you can't answer that question coming from a Biblical point if the one who created you cannot tell you who you are because it is the creator that gives identity to the object now speaking from a Biblical point so ideally when there is an attack of identity and someone might begin to say that sexuality I give you an identity yes I'm a man and first of all you identify as a man because of my sexuality we don't give the other story of the of the effects that come with the lgbtq I was reading a report from Mombasa where young people have to be lured into sleeping with Italians young young boys because of money they are being paid and the Italians want to have anal sex with them and these young people because they it was the the the adult was not designed for anything of course it's an abuse on their rights but these are people going through poverty so some people cartels lure them for that now these are Medical in Kenya I'm medical doctor comes and tells me Pastor talk to these young people because when they end up having sex their instant times come out through their animal attacks and once the intestines are out they must cut they must cut the intestines because they are designed to live in a certain environment so who is propagating you know inhuman for me look at it and I'm like where is the mercy where is the Justice I don't think the church has ever fought anyone I don't think the church has ever banned anyone if there is any scenario case please bring it to us in fact you'll be so surprised that it is the locals the communities the elders the ordinary people that are the ones who are like no these are not our values and I can say here also uh having gone to Europe seeing the kind of thing that is happening and seeing um whatever is happening I can tell you the truth we are so blessed as Africa to have values that advocate for family we are so blessed as Africa to have a community uh and to have the kind of systems that are working I don't know why someone doctrinated us and made us believe the West is the standard of morality we are so blessed to have the things we hold dearly to us we cannot use anyone's standard and try to make it look like this is life and there is a confusion between civilization and abortion of values civilization is exposure to intelligence but abortion of values is the first thing that kills it and I'll end by saying when you study the ancient Rome and these are research that was done nobody could bring down ancient Trump because of military power nobody this was the superpower that is the ancient Rome today the globe is divided by the structures and the structures of the ancient throne and what made ancient Rome fall was nothing but sexual perversion nine out of their 12 Emperors who are gay that brought conspiracy and compromise in the in the emperor and that's how Rome fell this is history at play we are living in a time now whereby even scientists are saying possibly in the next one billion years Humanity might enter into extinct because lesbian and lesbian don't bring any flu shot so it's like we're entering into a compromise Extinction which is humanly generated by human beings and we need to come to a place of having this heart to heart not even from my convictions of Faith but from the place of what happened I went to a school and they told me we are so mad we've condemned us we are the gay and lesbian Community here and I told them please tell me tell me because none of you was born like this you chose to identify like this because something pushed you to this I told them out of these scenarios why you abused on your young do you come from a home that never functioned maybe your dad your mom was abusive and you know you went to a divorce and you're bitter are you a victim of pornography watching pornography and and you know addicted to it are you just curious how does it feel to kiss a guy who kills a chick or do you come from a background where you just said verbally abusive parents who spoke to you in a very verbal Dimension or do you come to from a home which is a hundred percent Street where your mom told you stuck remember when we had a conversation I told them no Bible let's talk and all surprise 90 of that that team everyone had an issue that had happened in their life that was not addressed and now they fall they began not to form a team out of pain I won't lie to you if we sit with the queer Community what they need is healing you don't heal through identifying as a different person because those when they are open spiritually they don't need social understanding to close them and the church does not hate them if only they knew the church is the City of Refuge If Only They knew the only office you can walk and get council is the church I don't think we've ever discriminated any of them but the church at the end of the day does not preach a different gospel we have to say what is written yes and what is written is our final standard and what what is what is taking place and you know and she mentioned that um it's almost as if we're paranoid that uh that the lgbtq movement is going to morph into something that we don't understand listen coming from the United States the lgbtq spirit and movement has matured into its adult stage right now if you identify yourself with a certain pronoun maybe they if I called you her I can be penalized for that under the law I can be sued I can be thrown in jail you don't understand you understand what I'm trying to tell you that this thing will morph into what it is in America it's not going to morph into something let me cut you short right now pastors are being rejected licenses yes because they refuse to join weddings of the same people meaning that literally you are being told you can't operate as a pastor in this area so we are still on the baby stages uh must we wait for that time on this thing let me tell you violence will come from the church violence will come from you yeah that name human right you'll say this is my right I have the right to get married why are you discriminating me I'm a Believer this is my church I want to get married then they'll come and tell me as a pastor no why are you discriminating them you cannot discriminate against sex yeah that word will be misused it has already been misused and let us come to the consciousness of humanity that that for me is the end of the day we can all be human right issues activities where is the consciousness of humanity the law of science says everyone one is wired through a very systematic system called The Law of morality put men in a jungle they will come up with a system of life where they respect one another where are we losing this consciousness of humanity why can't we look at Matters from brothers and sisters and just agree this is an Escape Route this is not us and I want to just contribute in addition to what has already been said that and I want to appeal especially to onyango and and the many others who are allies because that is where really this conversation is at when when people make their choices of what they want to do with their lives they have already made their choices okay but there is a huge population that is uh being moved by the emotions of you know let's you know let's be kind to these people let's be loving those are the emotions that are being appealed to but there's something bamboo said about removing God from the conversation because if we're going to address ourselves to any human rights human rights are bequeathed To Us by the Creator yes Africans everywhere laws you could use everybody everywhere north south east west and have this very solid understanding that there is a Creator God in heaven irrespective of what you call him these are God he is the one who determines what is right what is wrong he is the one who determines what is acceptable what is not acceptable he gives us human rights for posterity yeah and Dr Eda in the first part asked a question if we put we have a an island where the only people who are there are the queer people 40 years who will you have the reality is that God gave sex for the posterity of the human kind when you take out the standards that God has set what you get is violence it is violent for a man to enter another man in an exit it is violence and that is why if we were to go to the Gory details of what people go through with that reality anyone with a human heart you will want to rescue them it is so unfair for a woman to go with another woman why when a baby is born there is such rejoicing in the entire community in the community I come from they would you relate what is the the expectation this child will grow and one day they too will bring joy in fact a reality where there is no posterity there is no getting children it is looked at as do we need to appeal to God what do we need to do do we go to science what do we do because children are the life of the posterity of a society but here is a conversation claiming the term human rights it is human right for Humanity to continue on generation after generation yes if Sodom and Gomorrah were allowed to continue and they somehow had ability to pervade because that is the reality evil is pervasive it's very forceful it's very violent it asserts itself exactly what we're seeing in our reality right now let's not forget the Genesis of this conversation we are concerned that in 2010 when we passed the Constitution we were guaranteed by the committee of or experts that because a large population of Kenyans are saying this conduct is Criminal it should not be given the light of day it should not even be if we shouldn't even be here having a conversation about it why are we having a conversation because right now the Supreme Court has ruled as it has is it is it against the majority of the will of the people in Kenya yes it is and this is the reality and and I'm calling on parents especially because when we finished part one there was a true fear that you know what this has started with the right of Association tomorrow we'll see it in the media allowed to tomorrow we'll hear it in the CBC conversation in our curriculum it will be allowed why because one little step has been opened the door that Pastor T is talking about that little door there will be such an effort to continue to push it and it is very obvious everyone here the way we were brought up you see a man and a man kissing on the screen you wanna children shouldn't be here so this is violence to children to allow them to have certain conversations that they should be protected from so if we're talking about human rights let's take it from who is The Giver of the human rights and the same God who made us like I said last time he gave instructions see only go this far the moment the sea crosses over to where human beings have built up their structures there's trouble there's death there's you know the dead is destruction so this God has given definition a woman should not sleep with a woman and burn with passion for a person of the same sex the same thing with men men should not have sex with men just the same way he even goes ahead to say a man should not sleep with an animal those are animal rights okay but right now we're already seeing an extension where a few weeks ago someone has gotten married to a dog okay who is coming out to say that dog has rights was it consulted all right the dog knows better and it knows male dog will never go after male dog just like male you know will not go after ajogo it doesn't happen it's again it's the natural order but right now this conversation where it has begun and I really failed for what younger was saying when he gave us his little history of how he grew up and he mentioned that he wasn't even given a history of how the Bible came okay and it's unfortunate that the handlers of biblical truth did not belabor or go the extra mile to help onyango understand this Bible is not Western Material this is where it has come from this is what it does it is actually the greatest advocate of Human Rights and because we are seated here there's a crime that is being legitimized a crime in Kenya we can mention so mean okay but we're seated here because of one which goes against the values of family goes against the values of humanity goes to ensure that if we take this route one day someone will come and say unto Nina I want to have sex with your four-year-old and you cannot stop me yes now I'm saying right now all mamas all daddies that conversation I cannot stand no one should have the right in this Society to say you want to sleep with my child and I have nothing to say about it because it is enshrined in law right now I Rise and say no we will not open that door why because my four-year-old need to be protected my 15 year old needs to be protected our children need to be protected if this wasn't happening in the law I am certain we would be having this conversation on a different level but the reason why Lynn has called us here is because there's a legal conversation there's there's a process that is taking place behind the scenes and it is that that every human being of Good Will who cares and is concerned about prosperity of people need to arise and say so if we allowed something in 2010 that gives rise to this that could possibly lead to that pedophilia and everything we need to go back amend the Constitution because the majority of the people in this space refuse reject the system that condones homosexuality lesbianism and every act that is considered carnal according to the Constitution thank you I want them to react but you were saying something because I also don't want to interrupt so maybe you are saying something yes right now um like I mentioned before in the United States lgbtq Spirit and the movement legally it is morphed it has it is in its adult stage right now in California a child can go to school and decide that they are homosexual it's five six year old can decide I don't want to be a boy any girl anymore I want to be a girl and the parent has no right to stop them and they can go directly to a hospital and have a sex change and the parent will just be informed later on that's where this is going that's where this will morph into it will blur the lines between what is right and what is wrong it will blur the lines between the Sexes it will blur the lines between adult and child it will blur the lines between what is good and what is evil and so there will be if there is no more line there's no more boundary like she mentioned and if there's no more boundary the darkness that will come upon this land is similar to what we're already seeing in the United States right now and we haven't even gone into describing the amount of uh disease HIV and and cancer of the colon and the the colon coming out uh the surgical procedures the suffering that people suffer afterwards and I'm and I'm saying this because right now we are currently funding they are there are um Elijah mukisa is one of them he's just a young man who used to be gay who was actually um initiated into homosexuality through a non-governmental organization called sexual minorities I won't go into that too much but they they got him from high school is the guy was only 16 years old they inducted him into doing gay porn and because the money was so easy he started doing it now he's in the recovery phase so we're actually funding his Rehabilitation and it's not just him it's a house full of them and now that same group that inducted him when they found out that he was sick they want nothing more to do with them they don't care they turned it their backs on him so now we're paying for arv pills we are the ones paying for their for their uh for their substance for them to have a roof over their head what I'm saying that to say this this movement is very dangerous they will betray you when you are dead when you are alone in in the hospital bed dying they will not visit you it is a very two-faced spirit I just want you to know that can I ask uh before we go on because there is a question and one of you can answer love your neighbor as you love yourself and it was raised last time if the Bible says love your neighbor as you love yourself why would you not extend that much love or what is the interpretation of that statement let me begin I'll say we don't hate people even God does not hate people sometimes it's the actions that kind of draw the line and some also we try to explain what is the cause of that action that's where now we will base our argument on spirituality anything that is beyond the confines of moral standards then you can only locate it to spirituality I want to share this testimony these happen two weeks ago I do a lot of highest commissions and we were praying to the dormitories in a certain girls school and this girl began to manifest and later we discovered she said she's a queen and she has one assignment these are from one she has one assignment to recruit as many people into lesbianism as possible and part of what she was using were the parts we can't capture these things on camera because this is Someone's Child and these schools need to be treated with a such conversation I even have on my phone a girl who called me from nanyuki and told me I'm now entering into a 20th rank the my recruiting to lesbianism the bigger rank I get and so I began to see the spirituality of this thing and ask us so what happens when you don't recruit and she began to tell me their consequences people die these are if if you want we can I can bring Witnesses and maybe even talk to the principal even one of them wants to verify because uh what what she was doing is pick up the pads and this was supposed to be used for rituals so spirituality is so much misunderstood and what the devil does he will come and bring a blanket cup and say it's called religion and so anything to do with religion Christianity you know that thing is you know colonialist used it and then when there's all that blindfolding we're now we now begin to release logic and what we want to call Human Rights and then now when we we speak about the agenda it looks like you can't verify the agenda uh so whatever we are doing right now is in the confinement of our rights when the Bible says love your neighbor it doesn't end there it says as you love yourself so if I can't do it to me I can't do it to you that's the standard so it's first of all self-love is the ground on which you can love your neighbor and as I've said we don't hate the lgbtq these are normal human beings when I go to preach in a club I don't hate the drug as I hate the alcohol when I go to preach to thugs in in jail or people who are stealing we don't hate the criminal we don't hate the criminals we hate the crime so we must speak against what is making them to be who they are and deal with the forces that is behind them we love them even after this I want to pray for these people this is God's image these are God's children and I want to tell you God loves them and God is not bound by the laws of the land no God loves men unconditionally that even died for us on the cross so we don't love them and that conversation should never come that the church hates them we don't hate them and if somebody told you that they hate you or if somebody because the church is oftentimes misrepresented and the church is also suffering from an influx of false prophets because by standing in the book that you can easily collect money from those who do not read the word of God for themselves so for that reason there is an influx of people assuming the Pastoral position to take money now when it comes to counseling or when it comes to dealing with those who are not born again they have no idea because they do not come from a perspective of Love they are coming from a perspective of greed and that greed leads to abuse and it leads to um misappropriation of everything and so um it's people and lots of people suffer from church wounds I suffer from church where everybody has a church wound story but I guarantee you that the real Jesus who died for you is not like a lot of these ministers okay and and please don't turn away from the church just because of something that a Christian did to you that Christian did not die for you Jesus died for you yes and he's super cool and if you meet him he's so super cool that you'll be like why why why was he so because hell is good at marketing that's why he's so misconstrued and misunderstood but he's super cool I mean that but but allow me first to let them and then we can pick it from you all right okay okay or is it brief yes it is okay it is brief I want to bring in a dimension of love and and I want to use the prison as an example in every society there are prisons who are in prison husbands wives of people Sons and Daughters of people and I remember watching a certain time they were celebrating you know some realities of what happens in prison and they were actually saying this is a correctional center yes it is called prison why because it is prohibiting anyone you don't want to involve yourself with criminal activity because you could end up here but when they are inside there the picture they are they're given to understand is this is a correctional center why do why does any normal society do that it's because when we take people to jail it's not because we hate them but it is because whatever conduct they are participating in is not good for the larger society if someone steals if someone kills if someone rips if someone commits incest if someone is a homosexual this thing yes I have to bring it up because that's where this conversation is coming in it's a criminal uh reality in this space that we are living in plus 254 it is a crime and let us not forget that because if we forget that then we we are blurred by the truth I mean by the falsehood that this is anything but a crime now when people are taken to prison that is love it is the love of society that says you have stolen something you have killed someone we're going to take you into a correctional center so that you rethink your ways so love must never be seen as a passive Force love must always be seen as the driving strongest force on Earth so that if you will harm my child I may sit here and smile with you but if you harm my child you may realize I'm a leopard or a lion why my love for my child is saying don't harm him don't harm her don't bring to these children media cartoons that are going to manipulate and corrupt their imagination and their understanding of what reality is so love even the love of God must never be misconstrued to mean what Hollywood as we've been told about Hollywood what Hollywood portrays as love that is not God's love God will send people to hell not because he hates them but it's because he has demonstrated his love but people have decided we don't want that all right thanks our mainly looks like you have a lot going on I want to first of all we can all have opinions but facts will always remain fact and I want to point out a couple of those things yeah on chiloba's mother first of all Jackson didn't confess it was a full story sold by Citizen TV you can go to any police station you can even call the DCI today and ask him and that's why there's a whole court process going on and there is a next case that is happening he did not confess he did not confess it was a false story that was sold that he confessed because of the climate of everything that was happening on social media but he did not come out to confess and that's why since he has been brought to the stand he keeps on saying he's not guilty now whether he's guilty or not that is another conversation and when we are speaking about violence when we pause the same narrative he used it's like saying in C heterosexual relationship there is no intimate partner violence intimate partner violence is there and we didn't keep quiet the lgbtq community didn't keep quiet maybe the people you interact with kept quiet but I as far as I'm concerned just because chiloba was murdered potentially by a lava does it doesn't make it any less a homophobic attack because in the history of homophobic attacks that's how they happen you also have to understand the same way you keep on saying um we have a lot of people who are not even in the community but who fail The Narrative because of the benefits they get and all that kind of stuff that doesn't mean for me as a queer person I will not interact with some someone who comes to me with that falsehood because we've been blackmail we get blackmail we get we get cornered we get brought to spaces where you think you're going to meet someone the excitement will have just met someone for the first time I like them they like me and all that kind of stuff kumbay you're getting Connor to be beaten and all that kind of stuff yeah and so all those things happen to people and all that conversation if we are gonna have the conversation about chiloba I will advise for all of us to wait until the court process is done the ruling is done and then we can have the conference but you can't say the Care Community keep kept quiet we didn't keep quiet it's just because social media has what we call algorithms and it works specifically to bring you information so that it can bring the conversation you want to see and all that kind of stuff that doesn't mean how chiloba was mad that was brutal and you highlighted the extensiveness of that brutality and it could be his partner it could not be who knows I'm not the one who has the truth we all don't have the truth the truth lies with the court process that will try to prove and all that kind of stuff the second thing you said um in California uh children are allowed to transition without their parents permission under this under under the sun in this world a child that is below the edge of consent which varies from country to Country can't go through any medical process without the the concept of a guardian now out those who are able to transition at a young age is because they're in families of people that are accepting of their Journeys and they they allow them through their their constitutional provided right to actually consent for their kids to go through that right the third thing the third thing is uh the whole concept of bringing up children and pedophilia and all that kind of stuff and I totally get a stand with you on the side of anyone who is an abuser to children I don't even listen I don't have children I don't plan to have children not a single day in my life not because I'm a lesbian because being lesbian doesn't stop me from having children if I wanted to and we have alternative ways of having children and I don't think they see heterosexual people had a problem with it until queer people started claiming their rights because we have people who are not fertile they can't be able to give birth for whatever reason right some of them have cysts in their fallopian tube some of them like different things that hinder them from getting children and we have alternative ways in which they can be able to have children surrogacy you know they can go through IVF and all that kind of stuff and they're able to have children and so anyone can have children with that regard and being a lesbian doesn't mean I disregard that when you want to have a child it involves both the X and the Y chromosomes and all and the sperm and the Egg I don't I'm not I'm not you know I'm not invalidating that aspect of it that happens but I as as some concerned as an individual I don't want to have children that doesn't mean I don't live my everyday life protecting children whether they're straight whether they are queer you will never catch me having a conversation with a child and I'm telling a child I'm a lesbian do you accept me I will not bring that conversation to a child because I do acknowledge and I do respect even you with so much power you have over your child when your child hits the edge of consent which is 18 they can make their own decisions and everyone should in the very least grow up in an environment that allows them to experience that another thing that came up is there is the aspect of if you ask lgbtaq people there's an aspect of violence that they've gone through and that's why all straight people have gone through violence last when I was watching the video the other day I watched experience with violence in the society that you've grown up in right and you've gone through that did you become a lesbian no you didn't become a lesbian doesn't mean you didn't grow up in a violent home everyone it's it's almost founded in the African culture how parents can be imposive and they can be abusive and they can be the kind of people who don't practice listening to children as an entity but rather to say I am saying you are not going to to play with your friend today I love your parents what I've said is what I've said I am saying today you must eat this even when the child doesn't like eating that food and all that kind of stuff we all grow up in environments where if it's not your parent It's Your Guardian if it's not your guardian it's another relative who does things and you get to experience them and those affect you and all that kind of stuff I will retire it in that statement and say what I said at the beginning you shouldn't use anyone experience of abuse to invalidate who they are as a human being now the other thing that I want to address which is also factual we've talked a lot about media and how TVs and and reduce and all everywhere where we we consume entertainment products they have scenes about gay people and all that kind of stuff the question I like asking people is is it gay people who regulate what content comes on TV I don't think it's gay people Kenya has a system that regulates that right and it has a duty to regulate that and the reason it allows all those things best believe their truth of that is is against me as much as it's against you it's against queer people as much as it's against uh non-queer people because governments and all that kind of allow that because these are investors Netflix has shows it runs in different countries you know Netflix has ways it Buzz people unless you have VPN you can't watch shows that are end specifically in other countries do you know why it's because Netflix has come to the country has talked to the to the department that is involved in that and they've agreed on terms of investment and they've invested and at the end of the day the evil that buries us all is the fact that people are very are prioritizing what they want to have in their pockets in terms of money and all that kind of stuff and they forget that they are people who are affected because I am not as a queer person I'm not responsible for coming to your home and telling you Pastor T this program has this this don't show your child that is not my responsibility that will be as much as me imposing in your home and how you run your things right but it's your duty to do that and if you want to hold someone responsible which I'm Pro if today we're gonna have a protest on the things we show on TV are not child friendly and all that kind of stuff I'll be the first one to go on the streets and say they're not child friendly and they should be but at the end of the day even if that is saying who is the one responsible to ensure your children don't consume that you are the one who is responsible you buy that TV you have you give them access to all those things that you give them access to that they're able to access all that but why is then the problem transferred to lgbtq people lgbtq people don't run Netflix we don't own Netflix we don't own TV sessions we don't own all these sites so all this to say all these things we can talk about you know uh the other thing that was said was about forcing a man to dress and all that kind of stuff I don't think clothes are gendered I don't think clothes are gendered at all because I'm wearing my jacket this jacket isn't a man's jacket because a man didn't buy it it's my jacket I bought with my own money it's my property right and so all these things when you look at them people have their own views about how they want to live their lives and I think the biggest conflicts we have in the room is the fact that um we get accused of the time of imposing and trying to recruit people and all that kind of stuff but I always ask people before today when we were having these conversation have you ever met me have you ever met me anywhere trying to recruit anyone and we can use those as true life stories the same way I do recognize a lot of men come into my DMs and come into my posts and and and like vilify my existence as a queer person but that doesn't mean if I meet Babu I'll tell you bamboo you're a bad person because men do that because I bamboo has never done anything to me and the reason also religious people who are quiet before that story was there on citizen which like I said proven Beyond Reasonable Doubt Jackson didn't confess right but the reason there was a flare up against Christians and the reason Christians were quiet until that story aired is because it's not false there's a lot of violence that has perpetrated that has been perpetrated against lgbtq people and it has been based off of religion in our community we don't believe this God does it believe this and so we don't want you in our community and people get banned and people get beaten and all that kind of stuff another conversation that has been brought up which is a big falsehood because last week what you're having a conversation you had a gay money and I wish he was here for people to ask him those questions people talk about things oh if you have sex I don't know anal sex and all that kind of stuff your intestines come out and all that kind of stuff have you gone to a gay person and asked them because any act of violence even if you have if you go through any form of abuse for example even through your vaginal opening and you go through any form of abuse intestines can come out through that if abuse is different from no it is true medically go read medically about cases from abuse not not just coming out just the same way they don't just come out from the anus but if it's a violent experience that does the openings yes it comes out through that's what I'm saying I'm not saying it just happens when you just sitting I'm not saying that I'm saying from an abuse experience because women go through very heinous acts of rape and all that kind of stuff and bottles are inserted and all that kind of I think you were mentioned you were alluding to the guy you um helping yes he has had past yes yes yes yes yes all kinds of medical you know yes malfunctions because of the trauma that comes through because what are we talking about here we're talking about a penis in being inserted into the rectum of another man and being driven in over and over and over again and that abuse is because the rectum was not designed to to receive it was only it was designed as an exit and so the the large intestine begins to come out and that leads to all kinds of other people yeah I'm going to push back against this very unhealthy obsession with queer people yes sex slides yes because it's an unhealthy Obsession and I want to push back against it because I think in this Obsession if even if now here we decide let's talk about heterosexual people sex lives no one will enjoy this conversation because it is a private part of your life that you choose to conduct as you see fit and I'm glad that you mentioned the aspect of abuse because it's truly heinous abuse but I'm going to push back against something else the existence of someone as being queer does not make them an abuser and people who have gone through abuse this is not the time to weaponize as be released was saying to weaponers they are very dark experiences and say oh it happened because queer people exist in the world that is not true anyone who has the statistics about abusers knows that there's no connection between sexual orientation and the likelihood of someone being an abuser there are other things that come into play you had mentioned adverse childhood experiences you mentioned divorce you mentioned abuse you mentioned the neglectable parent or an app parent I think even in this room if you want to take a survey of people who are heterosexual they have been to one or the other of these things so let's separate trauma and the experiences of trauma and trying to connect it with someone being queer those two things are very different I'm also going to push back against this idea that and you've mentioned it again that stood against it before that children are not in danger because queer people exist that is a true lie if anything like that exists that's an absolute lie and going back to this point that the Pastor T mentioned about trainings and how people are going through advocacy trainings across the angel sector everyone goes through trainings and I also want to say that right wing it's okay but I also want to say that right-wing fundamentalist movements also conduct their trainings this idea that pedophilia and queerness are linked that is a training idea that is an idea that has been trained into people to say oh when you go try to make this connection between humming our children pedophilia and queerness those two things I'm going to let me just allow me actually antonina did make a very clear link and that's what that one now can I allow you so antonina I want you to State categorically what you said yes the connection between the existence of the LGBT community to the harmfulness of the children so that now I do not want here see I want to pick it from your say then you can react to what she says yes go now and then I'm truly thankful that this is part two yes in part one when we are coming to an end a lady seated right where you sit it was turned around and said I have something against the homosexuals what is it that she stated I have a problem that right now I cannot watch a movie without being afraid that my children will be able to see a man and a man or a woman and a woman what does that parent say that parent is saying I am seated here because I think these guys are really being beaten up but I have a problem because right now already there's a push towards media there's a push towards uh the education system we know that ngos have been going to schools and teaching children inappropriate content yes what is that inappropriate content that they're teaching children as young as 10 years old that you know masturbating is your human right and parents are keeping you from something that is good all right so that the entire like comprehensive sexuality education which is a thematic ideology that I've been following through consistently they are very intentional to separate me the current from my children okay and to teach my children that I am denying them something good which is their human right so categorically I am saying here right now the conversation that we really should be having is what is happening in the court of law when lesbianism homosexuality is being done behind the scenes people didn't have a problem when it was a secret right now after the ruling is when we are saying you have crossed a line you shouldn't have okay and what is it that gave you that leeway it is a certain unpacking of a certain Clause that people now are using so I see the hum in that yeah the the the ideology of lesbianism homosexuality uh all that is very Sinister in how they clip that ideology to our children okay so that like right now I'm afraid of even the YouTube kids okay because it was touted as safe for children but right now I have gone in there and found cartoons that I watched when I was growing up but right now what are they painting a picture of they're painting a picture of gay I will not even use the word gay homosexual uh uh lifestyle and when that happens what have you taught my child you have taught my child something that is inappropriate against what the majority of Kenyans are saying we are a people who believe okay this is a criminal thank you for clarifying because I want to move to Rick's but now could you react to that since now it's clear for all of us so actually part of my reaction is to say that the thing you did say in part one and the thing you've said just before I spoke you made a very clear link towards the physical harm of children and the sexual harm against children and queer people and that's a lie it's a total lie and the existence of someone as a queer person does not pose any danger to a child and that's why I said the real conversation we should be having is not about behind the scenes it's about on the table and which rights are we trying to secure for everyone the law and the Constitution treats everyone as equal the same law that will come to protect you and so we are having a rights-based conversation and so when you say things like these people are dangerous to children or they have this agenda and actually you have misrepresented the CSC agenda because I have seen it and you've misrepresented It sharing we are sharing we are sharing ideas that are not grounded in fact and I'm going to I have ready and I'm going to I'm going to push back against that so I just want the audience to be very careful and to hear that really across both panels there's one person that he's saying on one side that he's saying oh you know what we are going to deny you your rights because we have decided that according to what we believe in adopting that not everyone shares that you must live like this and the other side of the planet is saying please just allow us to be able to get medical care that responds to our needs to be able to associate in a way that response to us to not be homeless because many queer people are evicted from their homes simply because of their identity and let me just lastly say that the law in Uganda I think we hadn't talked about it a lot but this law in Uganda that might be transplanted into this Society of other Kenyan Society the law not only criminalizes certain acts but it criminalizes identity and it criminal and it has Provisions that will criminalize anyone who does not report a queer person and the penalties are very extreme up to and including death and so what we are saying is we are going to live in a society where the mere fact that someone somewhere decides that you did not report you are held responsible now and so that creates a society where I really the law and these laws that we have built that are very hateful and violent laws can take up anyone and I know it's easy to think oh it's just those queer people so that's fine them they can be oppressed and it's difficult to realize that that will also turn into you being oppressed and in ending I will say that the true immorality that exists is in people not being able to see the humanity of others and just grant them the bare necessities for them to live a full life and that's the true immorality I think before before all of you just a statement briefly prostitution is illegal but their first clients are MPS who make the law but no one has ever complained about prostitution because I know has never changed to say it is legal the day they will go and say from today it is legal you'll see an approach because it defies the order when a prostitute is sick even people do harambez when a prostitute die even pastors bury them but you see it is not yet legalized our conversation began with this thing is now pushed in the legal infrastructure no one has ever discriminated lgbtq they walk in the streets of Nairobi holding hands and you know this is lesbian these are couple no one has ever when the Lord now pushed that agenda is when we began to say no we know how this has happened in the west we have a model the summer you have a model in Uganda we have a model of where this is going and we already see it in the west so we must save ourselves before we reach there because we are founded on principles the ruling did not bring in anything thank you the ruling merely entrenched that which is already our right go by God metamorphism of this stuff it does not begin like you can marry you can do it begins with accepting yourself yes I can receive funding let me speak let me speak as a loss [Music] do you know if nothing happens these guys have won if nothing happens in this land if this one takes a petition tomorrow to the Supreme Court which is the highest court on the land you can petition the Supreme Court and say I identify you can't discriminate me because of this and I want to get married in Pastor discharge another case will be we have a petition already FYI from the case what we are doing as a church right now even if it means going back to the referendum we must guard our principle guys the aspect of sex work and HIV the conversation about HIV and the statistics about men having HIV and it finding out that men who have HIV the biggest percentage kids are see heterosexual men in marriages but they're not their Partners do not have that they get they're infecting each other is because sex is sex and Calaveras said you look at queer people and you think of their lives from a point of sex and sex alone and that's why you're constantly thinking they're harming your children even when what I do is not just like any such a sexual person I don't think you have sex in front of your children you don't have sex in front of your children right you don't have you don't engage in anything sexual in front of your children who are people also are human beings that have capacity and ability to actually comprehend that doing all these activities in front of children is wrong having conversations with children about these things is wrong so that's that on that and queer people do that so it's wrong on that alone and the reason this that the conversation about MSM we have MSM men having sex with men are not necessarily gay because this heterosexual men have sex with men all the time if prostitution is a conversation we are gonna have which is what I wanted to drive at where [Music] you're a person who is selling sex and another person who is buying sex you don't you don't say I'm not taking your money unless you don't want to which you can always say I'm not taking your money because I don't want to have sex with you and all that kind of stuff but anyone can buy sex from anyone and anyone and these men are still going back to their homes to their wives and their children and all that kind of stuff and I want that to be noted that's why the HIV department and all that kind of stuff in the Ali late 80s early 90s when the call broke out of HIV was coming out and ways to mitigate it and all those conversations are being had it was not being heard from a point of and of course gay people would easily fall in that category because just because your gay doesn't mean you're not a sex worker you can't be a sex worker and all that kind of stuff but it's not true that if you you are a sex worker you are essentially gay because of who you're having sex you're just having sex because you want money and all that kind of stuff and people do that all the time so that is very very important uh to to not and then the thing about familial abuse I I had said Alia about families but the concept of familial abuse is also derived from a point of what what is family in that Essence people will forget that for me as a queer person I grew up in a Catholic home I grew up very religious and understanding like like uh Rick said without anyone unpacking the whole concept of the history and everything that came from that understanding religion and what was expected of me and it was until I became of Aid and until I began to formulate my own opinions and biases and Concepts about humanity and life and all that kind of stuff that I I stopped being a religious a Christian person way before I even came out as a queer person and no one approached me the whole concept of oh someone must have told them so they at the end of listened oh kids in school saying they're possessed and all that kind of stuff and they're recruiting I'm among the people who want to go to that school and see and see that person who says they're even ranks and if you if you get I don't answer number I want to go there I want you to take me there I want you to take me there I mean I feel when it comes YouTube rights it depends on what the person concerns the reason I'm saying you take me there is because I'm hoping you can go and ask if it's okay and then if you're told it's okay we can go because that is something I would love to see and to see how it happens because we have been on some sort of accounts that we have ranked somewhere that if you recruit a number of people because it's not about recruiting I cannot come to lean and tell Lynn I'm doing all these things and if you don't do this you're gonna be killed because at what point does then Lynn lose her right to make a decision and make a choice okay yes into someone and all that kind of stuff yeah the whole process the same way you experience attraction is the same way I experience attraction the only difference is why you'll be attracted to to a woman I will also be attracted to a woman and I don't think there's anything I'll take you but that's sorry okay you see now that is violence and that's what your Christianity yes I would want us to hold space foreign that we also get to listen uh to him there's a lot he hasn't reacted to I also give you an opportunity for a partying shot as we also get to react briefly to what is happening in Uganda right all right tricks now there is a a male gay sex worker in Harare Zimbabwe right now and because I do a lot of research with masculinities and just want to understand what's really going on um uh so in the particulars of sex work um the first time that I learned that we have male prostitutes it be weirded me because our education of a prostitute is it's just a woman right now to even have a male gay sex worker was given out of this world but then uh in my podcast I talk about these issues and there was a research I was working with who did a story from Zimbabwe and he shared with me this young man's story and this young man um told told us that as a gay sex worker majority of his customers are married men you know majority of these customers are married men you know who identify as Christian his words yeah and he himself also is a Christian and he says he does not understand why people discriminate against him because he believes in his God and he wants to go to church and he also does his sex work and he's not not harming anybody nobody recruited him he didn't go to a training there was nothing forceful about the process all right now because we are living in an abusive Society right um it just so happens that and it's funny because a lot of these stories come from the church where when they ask somebody what happens to them who someone who is gay they happen they ask what happened to them and it's because they were abused and and all these things so now it is almost like corrective oh because these things happens to you that's why you're gay I those things happen to me too I was actually raped by a woman you don't know that I was raped by a woman I didn't become gay I didn't become a lesbian I'm still who I am right I still chose to go to what attracts me to be me and it was still not anybody's uh responsibility even if I identified as gay to come and tell me now this new thing you took up is a function of pain if I need healing it is not upon you to decide how peace looks like fun how healing looks like for me for example I also do not want to be a father I don't want to have parents and if I choose also I won't even marry it's my choice right whatever the context of that choice it's still mine do you do you care it's still mine so for me I would want to see a world where we extend our understandings of what being a human being is it's okay if I believe in the Bible I want to run my life in the concepts of that Bible in fact as Christianity began it was never meant to be institutional it was so personal it was so personal and what the gay community is saying we wanted to remain personal it can it cannot be like to the National level where if I identify as this then I'm being told I cannot exist just because the other side has these ideas about what this thing is there are equally so many stories that you may not have come across of queer people who have told time and again that they began feeling better from when they were children nobody took them to school about you know what I mean it's fine we have these stories about recruitments and and all these things and for me I'm just sad because we want to concentrate on that small part being the only truth you know eight billion people in this world you want to tell me all the gay people who are trained to becoming gay come on Farm like seriously I'm just requesting us as Noble humans whether we are lawyers whether we're human rights activists whether whoever you are your experience of Truth does not have to be another person's experience of truth that's what you're saying also consent and abuse in our conversation around queerness we connect we we make them look like it's one thing you cannot have sex with an animal it's not consensual the animal has not said yes you can have sex with me that is not consensual when you are a human being and today as an adult right and I identify as gay and I meet another guy who also identifies as gay and they're like yeah we can have sex I need to have the right to do that you don't need to understand it we are not going to schools to recruit any people to be gay as a result so there is a bigger chunk of people who are left out of these conversations because it's insinuation that all of them are recruiters and all of them are being funded in fact you would be surprised that a number of queer people that are poor in this country unbelievable and and that's actually the majority of them but we don't want to get out of those Church Gates and look at the reality because we are scared thank you I'm gonna just randomly pick uh one of you at a time uh so that you can get to react to this also give us your parting shot but most importantly also tell us what your views are in regards to what Uganda is experiencing Mata lgbtq who want to go fast there you go yes first and foremost I believe that uh 1.70 did was a move to protect the children um it was not a move to abuse homosexuals or to um to kill them to destroy them to um to violate any human right that they have but he wants to protect his Society from descending into what is already a reality in America all right um case number two ciloba's lover Jackson used chiloba's phone to conduct m-pesa transactions after the Pathologists determined that chilobo was dead there were m-pesa transactions afterwards Jackson actually was the one who who performed those transactions so that's the reason why he is a prime suspect in other words if you turn up dead at an iPhone and I was found with your wallet guess who's the Prime Minister Yours Truly in other words yeah yeah I'm just saying I'm just saying I'm just saying why he was a prime suspect okay so he's going to be real tough to escape that um Point number three the Bible speaks about clothing gender you said there is no gender for clothing there is God was the first one to clothe male and female and if I came here with a mini skirt and high heels you would call me trans why are you calling me trans people there's a difference between male and female no I wouldn't let me go ahead the next point please statistically the vast majority of pedophilia is in the form of sodomy all right statistically the vast majority of pedophilia is in the form of sodomy that's why we are fighting the pedophilia because right now the lgdpq movement has added the letter P for pedophilia meaning minor attracted persons this is something that's going on in America right now minor attractive persons are people that they're calling them maps all right they're saying that this is a psychological issue and that he has and because wait a minute because of his psychological issue he has a right not to be treated as a sexual um violator but as a person who is suffering from mental from a mental disorder I want to understand that yes yes I also am interested yes pedophiles yes minor attracted persons and so that will be a P that is added to the lgbtq so they'll have they will have P now P4 pedophile meaning that he's a minor attracted person and that uh legally he will be judged as a person who is suffering from a mental disorder not as a sexual uh offender and that is a big deal because if he's not judged as a sex offender then that means that he can easily get out of jail that's a get out of jail free card so this is law that we're talking about here we are blurring the lines between various uh different laws um and and especially because lgbtq writes they don't seem to have a limit they will go into we have the right to teach our children they will go into we have the right to change the laws as to what is considered a male and what is considered a female we have the right now to change the law and say that there are no longer male and female there are 27 different species of gender in other words everything we know as reality is at stake all right um they feel that demonstrating their sexually provocative dances are also a human right to children now we have videos that we can show you we can play them we can have them edit them and show and and just show you that there are um transgender men dancing for minors and they are dancing provocative I mean just stuff that you wouldn't even see in in a strip club so it is really bad there is no border for this thing if if you do not nip it in the bud from the beginning and it's not against you it is against where it is headed and so as Ministers of the Gospel um our job is to tell you that there is a standard that there is a rule people can call themselves Christians but if they are not living like Christ they're not Christians they're wannabes and I told you that the church is suffering from an influx of people who pretend to be that which they are not not everybody who goes to church will get into heaven not everybody who doesn't go to church will fail to get into heaven but those that do the will of God they will enter in so our job as ministers is to warn you that this path that you're taking it leads to fire it leads to Eternal separation from God what you do from here is entirely up to you but I will warn you as Ministers of the Gospel once you've come into contact with us and we've warned you every step you take towards God is a step up every step you take away from God is a step down and if you choose to say to hell with our warning satisfied you will live your life we might not ever see you again however you will be journeying in a direction that leads to Eternal separation from God and that is called hell all right so with that warning we love you and we don't believe that you should be discriminated against or anything my parting shots then would be at the end of the day and I think uh Rick's pointed it out clearly we could all have uh all our beliefs and I was listening to Bamboo say he's putting shot and he kept on saying warning and warning and warning and I kept on listening to that and it's ringing in my head and I'm asking myself do you want a person who doesn't subscribe to the same system as yours against something they don't even believe in and I think that is the biggest mishap with Humanity in general let's take a book let's read about things let's understand people let's have human interaction and human experiential you know information and all that kind of stuff so that when we're having conversation instead of saying in America currently uh you know pedophilias are asking to be added it's one con it's one I don't think people don't have a right to have a conversation that doesn't mean it's okay for you to associate that with but it's a fact is that pedophiles are asking to be added yes right they've already been added no they haven't they haven't okay would you agree with them I will not agree with them being added because younger was saying conversations about our queerness is also founded on consent that regardless of how I feel regardless of who I'm attracted to the only way I can be able to engage in any activity with that person is if and only if that person concerns and pedophile is not founded on consent because you know if we have a constitution that says the edge of sexual consent is 18 and a child and pedophile is basically from with a person who can't consent then that is already abuse and I don't think those are the very laws you want to change to have a child you see now you're imposing what you think the reality what is you said you don't want to have a child that is not I I don't want to I don't think laws that will affect mine I I don't want to change any laws about you wanting to have children that are going to affect which law is that that I'm changing that will hinder you from having a child no no no that will affect my children but I don't want laws about the power files being added to people that that is what I want okay but I do not believe that yes I do not want to silence both of you continue we won't have parting shots for past 30 yes I know you need to rush somewhere so what would be your cutting shot I'm not forgetting if she's a Kenyan she sounds South African are you from I am Kenyan but also people say I'm South African to remove me from my realities I'm Kenyan yes so as you conclude my mind is very simple and don't forget remarks on what's happening in Uganda whatever is happening in Uganda is Ubuntu you know we just need to gather African culture we need to guard our African society it might have gone to the extreme but I believe they understand better I can't discriminate a lot of a country I'm not a part of but what I'll just tell everybody there is only one agenda take God out of the equation and the Bible says and people will work in their Madness that's Romans chapter number one from verse 24 since they rejected God and they knew God is there look at creation Society we can say religion the blanket cover being used here is all religion or religion what is that there is God there is operations of dealing with God we never made God God made us and when we take God out of the equation then all this pervasiveness will take over mintamanisms it wasn't so hot Ricks well um mine also is to say that I believe in God here my brothers on from the point that the right life is from what God believes God wants there is somebody who does not believe in that God they also have a right to be here they have a right to be and as long as they are not harming anybody as long as they're not imposing their their rights their beliefs on anybody else and what I'm me for me I really want religious um rights to be protected you know the same way I want queer rights to be protected that's what I'm asking this was not saying you need to stop believing in God you know in fact they want to they want to be part of church they are part of church right now in silence many of them they're your friends they're our friends they are not they as they think no this will are with us every single day you know what I mean and we might say we are trying to protect our children for me we need to extend how our children view love and educate them on that for me that's that's where I come from you know and it's not to say at the end and again I've used consent nobody is supposed to touch you if you don't consent to it until you understand what's really going on that's just the Baseline so your views on Uganda I think it's insane I think um it's it's part of um it's part of deflecting from what's really ailing the Ugandan people because the Ugandan people are going through so much pressure and you can see what unifies those politicians right now and quote unquote the church as well is this lgbtqi conversation but when you remove it from that Society the chaos is still there so let's let's let's just be honest with ourselves that we are scared even this thing we call African values lean African culture lean there is no one African culture that was the same with another it does not exist okay it's an illusion all right yes thank you Calavera Angelina has not spoken oh you could speak for a second finish and finish okay okay um um I'll begin with Uganda and um there may be a lot of talk about Uganda from an outside perspective but if you interact with the ugandans you will hear they have a history with homosexuals and you may want to search about what happened in namugongo you may want to search about some young people that were forced by a certain political leader to participate in homosexuality and because they rejected that they were made to and they were killed and it is a society it is a community that is speaking in one language saying we will not give an even a niche to this discourse that gives any possibility that this reality could ever happen does that mean there are no homosexuals there of course they are does that mean there are no lesbians of course they are but when it comes to law law must be guided and safeguarded for the majority of the people and that's what we are also saying so I'll come back to my parting shot that the reason why we're having this conversation is really because we have taken this conversation to a place of legislation of law and when it is given that opportunity in the place of law it means now it has every pervasive opportunity to enter into spaces I as a parent consider I must protect my tough and like he's saying Kenya and I want to say if there has ever been a time that we need to rise and speak in unison to protect our children it is now because one inch will give rise to the moon to the moon and the much so that when we look at societies like the US that uh this minister of God has been speaking repeatedly about I don't want that Society that is so pervasive affecting my children and I may not be able to do anything in the U.S but there's something I can do in Kenya and in Kenya I am saying right now I know that kcpf the Kenya Christian professionals forum and the leadership of the church have come together and they're big they have begun the process of amending the Constitution I am calling on to all parents who care about the children it's unfortunate that there are people who don't want children they simply just don't want children let me finish let me finish it is unfortunate because it is because as a community we have Ambitions when people when a dad and a mom come together get a son they're hoping on younger will bring them a son or a daughter someday if there is difficulty if there is difficulty that is understood and many communities will actually pursue what can we do to resolve that why because it is the human thing to do to procreate and to continue this generation to the next and to the next but the reality is of course he's he's an adult and no one can force him on that but this is the the take that right now because of the ruling that was made we need to arise and say we will protect Kenya as a state and we will protect it because we are a God-fearing people that's why we in our national anthem that's why in our constitution we recognize God but we continue with this conversation there will come a time that even God will be illegal to mention in our national anthem and we are saying already because we can tell when the rain is going to you know to fall we are also saying on a moral ground from a social perspective from a religious perspective there is Darkness coming and we also need to educate our children and prepare our children and tell them there is danger and there are dangerous people who are in schools who are in different places who will want to to teach you things that are against what me as a parent have taught you or you have learned in church and it is that God made a man and a woman brought them together and told them be blessed be fruitful but there are unions that will not grant that fruitfulness thank you thank you so much much our final remark Calavera so I had spoken about Uganda but I want to belabor the point that queer people are real people before they are queer they are humans and I think it's important that we realize the sentiments we share can lead to actions to mindsets to systems and to structures that keep people aside so it's true that even in Uganda being able to walk into a health center as a queer person you will not receive the basic human care that you are entitled you spoke about being a victim of medical violence and it's true can you imagine walking into a place and a doctor will not treat you simply because of how you identify at some point in history the largest fight we had was that women are not allowed to vote because they cannot think for themselves and we move past that point because we recognize the inherent Humanity in everyone now these laws and policies that queer people would like to be Revisited are simply about out basic rights the Supreme Court ruling was about the freedom of Association nothing new it's already enshrined in our Bill of Rights and that is what was accorded to them but when we speak about hate and violence and exclusion is a form of hate and violence what we don't realize is that when we allow ourselves to be party to act of hate violence and exclusion we assume that it will happen to the least of us in society but really one day it will come to us because me you we are different in some way you know I am a woman or I am young and one day that will be used to discriminate against me so we have to be careful that we do not allow that hate and violence can become the laws by which we live by and you you had all share that oh it starts like this and it starts like this I will also say that hate starts with the least of us we say it's okay to hate those people and then so enough it grows and grows and this hate comes to engulf all of us I will also say that the same logic that informs homophobia that informs transphobia is the same logic that allows all other forms of violence to exist including violence against children including violence against women femicizing and even ethnic violence once we say that it's okay to exclude those people because they are different they don't deserve their full rights because they're different it will then apply to all of us and finally I will say that the practice of faith is not what is violence it is the doctrine that we hold on to which is violence I know you feel that what you're doing is for the best of the society but really what you also don't realize is that you are becoming party to making people feel like they are outside that they are singled out that they are not worthy and I don't think that sits right with you and finally I will also end with a call to action and I will end with a call to action to all Kenyans to all well-meaning people people across the world who are watching this including parents who want to safeguard the future of their children that you want your children to live in a future where they are able to respect everyone and they understand that someone else having their rights does not mean they don't have their rights I know you don't believe it but this is true you can have your full rights as a Believer as a Christian as a missionary of the gospel and I can have my full rights as whomever I am whether you're a queer person whether you're not a queer person whichever side of the spectrum you fall we can live in a city where we both have our rights and I think that is what our laws need to safeguard not a religious framework but a human rights based framework where we see each other's Humanity before anyone anything else thank you so much I would want to say anyone with abandoned remark before we go on but all of you might want to so yes question quick question when you were born uh did the doctor refuse to remove you from your mother's womb he was doing their mandate to give birth to me but I thought you were born this way which way which way which way meaning that boy and gay you were born this way meaning that when he removed you from your mother's womb he did not discriminate against you I think discrimination is a myth discrimination is amazing wow discrimination nobody discriminated against you when you came here everybody everybody loves you that will be the statue guys [Laughter] thank you so much I did not want to rush the ending of this conversation but as you all know there is power whatever uh around where we are filming from we had to put bats in these lights and the batteries are running out but thank you so much I believe what needed to be said has been said today and if you feel like there is a gap I am right here but reloading anytime soon but I just want to say I can make it a series we can make it let's talk about the gays whoa thank you so much for coming even for taking time from your busy schedule even as we are sitting here past that is like lean I gotta go I do not want you to miss your meeting so thank you also for you know just making time to come antonine I appreciate you coming here one more time Middle East just reaching out to you and asking could you help me even coordinate this and you say the biggest I appreciate that Rick's continue doing your thing with words you know I appreciate you just making time to be here in Calavera wanting to be the one ending this conversation call to action from everyone and just to say I genuinely appreciate you having a very very healthy conversation guys at home I don't know what you think about today's show please I always say we are here to learn we are here to grow together on the comment section what has been your take home what has been your observation and what can we do better next time to make sure that we continue having this conversation and impacting one life at a time and I have to go but I don't want to say bye before thinking the incredible team behind this work our amazing our amazing creative director Edgar and muga we appreciate you for being behind the lens and of course the people who have helped me put this conversation together lynetta Chang and Joshua I appreciate you thank you so much for taking time and our incredible editors Sam and Kevin for compiling this episode and making sure reaches you guys right on time you want to know where to find each and every of this individual they are their tags were in the introduction but now pinned on the comment section below is their names and where you can be able to connect with them just in case you want to get a book you want to get more views you want to follow their work on the comment section they are all the full social handles on how you can connect with them to connect with me info Elemento digital or lean.gogi.digital I look forward to seeing you tomorrow at 10 AM take good care of yourself be kind and thank you so much for the love my people 600k subscribers honestly thank you so much bye-bye foreign [Music]

Channel: Lynn Ngugi

Views: 435,861

Keywords: lynn ngugi, Lynn Ngugi network, Lynn Ngugi show, Lynn Ngugi video today, Lynn Ngugi latest uploads, Lynn Ngugi latest video, Martha rena, tuck talks with lynn ngugi, tales of wanjiku, inspire global, mens desk, gala real

Id: w7AfPo3RW6o

Length: 148min 19sec (8899 seconds)

Published: Fri Mar 31 2023