Is "Japa" the solution to Nigeria's economic struggles?

this week on the 77% Street debate almost uh 90% of the people I went to school with have left the country if you're a doctor there's no reason for you to be in Nigeria that is what everybody say so for the fact that people are running away because of money is a problem to me you took an oath to save lives this is this is this is a sense of belonging this is beyond pain if everybody lives Nigeria so who would bu Nigeria come to Nigeria get the knowledge over there come back and create opportunity I don't I don't agree I don't agree because hope is not a strategy you don't hope we keep hoping for 60 years we have people in power who are not concerned about the people they concerned about their pocket why aren't people able to get what they need from this country well that that's that's a very tough question that's why I'm asking [Music] you hello and welcome back to the 77% this week we are back in Nigeria and before we continue I'd like you to picture something imagine living in a country where you feel completely frustrated by your government's efforts and feel absolutely no way out what do you do well for most Nigerians they decide to japper the Yuba word for run and so huge is this problem that recently elected president tinubu asked people in the diaspora in the us to come back home and forget the frustrations of the previous government but is this enough to allow the young people here to remain that's the question we have today and I'm going to begin with Samson now you are one of the people who is saying that look this country is not really working out for me and given the chance I am taking the first flight out of here and never coming back why so I'm a digital entrepreneur I think about me having solutions to many problems and then still trying to battle with infrastructure thinking about PA thinking about um my internet thinking about infrastructure that will help me do many things I want to do that so I would think about me looking for a place where I have all of those things that can I enance my idea to create the solutions that I'm looking for okay so give me an idea of how frustrating it is it's lack of infrastructure on a normal day paint a picture for me so just imagine me getting into the airport or in the marketplace and I need to quickly attend to one of my clients and I don't have access to Internet or me trying to even use my data to do what I want to do but I'm locked out because of the fact that the quotes are not working and all of that I've had several challenges like this where I'm trying to do something but I mean I get into the environment there's no Wi-fi that can make me do stuff there's no infrastructure that can give me an idea of what I want to do it's very frustrating okay so let me hear from other people here just the State of Affairs in Nigeria at the moment how would you describe it uh Udo so the case of Nigeria yeah you might see things are not working right but it's not Beyond Redemption Nigeria is going to be a better place if we all contribute our parts to make it a better place okay so you say it's going to be a better place but what is is the situation presently um yes there's a reason why we are developing Nation right we are not as developed as a Western World yes but nevertheless uh things are getting better you can see unicorn springing up around everywhere I'm in the data space I'm in the tech space so I can see a lot of things happening so yes um things are getting better and you can only hope that things get better okay not Beyond Redemption things are getting better and yet uh Nida as you so beautifully wrote in one of your articles uh for your blog people are already leaving and they're leaving in droves and it's having an impact already not just on society but on your personal life can you tell me about that please well things have gotten really lonely um typically have to work I I normally run like a very tight schedule I love friendships and I would be able to say on Monday I'm hanging out with this person I'm hanging out with that person on Friday I'm like but the shortage of friendships and the shortage of things to do as and it has really been on an increase um beyond that I also understand why people are leaving the thing about living in Nigeria is that um the Paradox is that there's a lot of individual Brilliance right um but it doesn't translate to anything collectively um because like um he rightly said there's no structure there's no infrastructure in place so people want to take that Brilliance and take it to a country that works a structure that works and you can't blame them so even for those of us who have not you know summon up courage or been able to just uproot ourselves and leave we are left with you know the keeping up with our friends with all of the digital media social media Twitter it feels like we're seeing every day but the truth is we are separated we lineated from people we've grown up with we're are separated from family like I have friends that um one of my friends today is a mom's birthday um she's literally the only child and she doesn't even know when she's going to see him see right and it's just happening like that we talk about the impact t on youth but there also impact on the parents you're leaving behind the people that you don't know when they're going to fall sick things are really bad you don't know when if the next time you're coming into Nigeria is to to bury your mom or to bury your dad so it's really painful yeah but you said that you understand why they're leaving by the way how many people have friends who' japper let me see by show of hands that's everyone that's everyone okay so so let me talk to Dr Dao here because he is actually uh working very closely with the permanent secretary here in Lagos for the Youth commission correct so if Lagos and Nigeria indeed is one of the biggest economies in Africa why aren't people able to get what they need from this country well that that's that's a very tough question that's why I'm asking you one one challenge we have is um the number of people compared to the resources that we have in this country and also management of that resource we're a low uh Middle inome Country so we can't actually compare ourselves fully with the with the Western World which is also a high high income country so I think um it's natural that people move to places where there is a Greener pasture what I find a bit disturbing is the number of people exactly uh and just for the information or for the benefit of our audience a recent report stated that nearly 70% of Nigerians actually would want to leave this country to leave elsewhere but not everybody does and in fact some people want to return and that's the story of antole here tell us more yes I'm actually a rakba I wasn't born in Nigeria so what is rakba coming back I wasn't born in Nigeria I didn't go to school in Nigeria I didn't do anything at Nigeria I came to Nigeria for the first time when I was 20 and then um so on and off I've been in Nigeria for 10 years and I have absolutely no intention of ever moving back to America and is intriguing because Samson here mentioned something that is the problem to me he said that he's a problem solver so I don't understand why a problem solver would be leaving a place that has problems we need his talents and that's my issue with Jack people can travel and do whatever the heck they want to do but it is our quality individuals are leaving and that is what the problem is by all means go and travel abroad go to school have University experiences but please bring those experiences back okay uh hey hey whoa whoa whoa all right basically for me the word Jacka has a literal meaning and a figurative meaning so literally in eura it means to run away and when you say someone is running away something is chasing you right and most of the time it's like you don't have a p particular purpose or a reason you just want to run if something happens here everybody just runs everybody just disperses there's no particular um Direction but then there are some Nigerians who still have hope in Nigeria and come in the figurative part which is you're moving with a purpose there are Nigerians who intend to go and come back they there are Nigerians who go to um improve themselves personally and professionally to come back and there are lots of them who have come back to create opportunities for other people so now Nigeria is a developing country right but then there are countries that have more resources more infrastructure than we have and it's not a big deal if some persons want to go get better and come back at the same time you can't also stop people from wanting to go and not come back it still ends up with um every um individual um opinions and choices at the end of the day okay so I want to talk to Dr f for a second because you're a doctor and then also interestingly a visual artist I have no idea how you manage those two schedules I can barely keep mine up so um your industry medicine is one of the worst affected by japa uh at least from the reports that we're hearing tell us a little bit about that are you seeing an impact almost uh 90% of the people I went to school with have left the country wow there's something about being a medical doctor that Nigeria is really faing at if you go to other countries Western countries there's this huge amount of respect and um you know there's a a care that is given to medical doctors that we do not have here the fee is very bad the living conditions very bad and um you know we if you break down what the government is giving to the doctors in the country here it's really bad I have a lot of Hope for the new the new um the new regime hoping that things would change for sure um I'm also hoping that my my colleagues would also come back to the country when they've developed themselves and all that but most people just want to run if you're a doctor they no reason for you to be in Nigeria that is what everybody says okay let me come back to Udo here for a second because you you said that you know things are bad but there's no reason to go when you hear Dr fo speaking I mean surely those two worlds don't belong together so I'm not saying there's no reason to go right but if you are going what's your intention if everybody lives Nigeria so who would be Nigeria that's the truth we all have to go yes you can go get the knowledge and come back and build Nigeria come and cause disruption in Nigeria yes there's a problem right but the face of problem when you solve the problem you create opportunity come to Nigeria get the knowledge over there come back and create opportunity in Nigeria and make Nigeria a better place okay I don't I don't agree I don't agree because hope is not a strategy you don't hope we keep opening for 60 years we have people in power who are not concerned about the people that concerned about their pockets imagine me get out of the country get out the knowledge come back and I'm being sabotaged I'm being killed just because I need to strike a deal with someone in government to make my idea come to reality I mean we're talking about a country where you can literally not see what will happen the next time no security no infrastructure you're telling me that I should go no no no no I'm not saying that all the countries are not like that I'm saying that there are certain there are things that I should be certain about there are things that should be numb for me provided by the government that's the reality of what we are talking about uh give me a second because yes and I also think that you can discount um the fact that the problems in Nigeria are very institutional people leave this country I have friends who have left this country and in 3 years they have houses because there's mortgage systems we don't have that in Nigeria we do not have that in Nigeria and it's even if we do is accessible I think that we come from a place of I think that we're coming from a place of privilege if you think Listen to I think that it comes from a place of privilege if you think that a normal person can access the things that you say that no no no noage no no this is this is the problem I think often times because we access to social media we think everyone's life is perfect it's not like that even in the abroad you have to have a certain kind of salary to get a certain kind of Market to get a certain kind of house everywh has its own kind of strategies and rules he said something about a doctor and I know even when I was trying to study medicine doctors are supposed to have some kind of ingrained reason to want to help people so for the fact that people are running away because of money is a problem to me you took an oath to save lives but don't you don't you think hold me problem that took 8 years for the government to fix that took 8 years for the government to fix and when this problem was addressed what did the government say they said it was a spiritual attack on the medical profession hold on hold on hold on hold on hold on hold on hold on hold on let's just uh come back to Center for a second you said something about the medical profession and questioned what is driving uh the doctor's desires and what their motivation is yes and the media is trying to explain something this is this is this is a of belonging this is beyond pay this is a sense it no it did say that there's a level of ingrain respect that comes to the profession in other in other countries and we'll be I feel like we'll be disillusioned if we say that we don't see it we see it we hear about it we hear about this systems I mean there are complaints in the UK about NHS systems everybody knows that but the truth is if you're a medical doctor you've put 9 years am I correct 9 years 9 years of your life into caring for people into catching for people into making sure that people are alive into basically being God in some sense then you should deserve that level of respect from the government okay now because because we've invoked the name of doctors here let's uh reintroduce him to the discussion now uh the question was posed you know what is the motivation for a doctor but of course if the conditions are so terrible as Nidia is explaining then why should you stay but if you don't stay that's the other part who then gets to fix a system now we need to say the first thing is very important you're trying to downplay the the importance of pay and that is very very bad these doctors are not machines do you understand now we work in a system where you work morning shifts and night shifts you understand we have periods where you have to work the whole weekend do you understand how do you how do you give your services your mind your hands when you're thinking about your rent when you're thinking about your transportation when you're thinking about data when you think about your family do you understand most people come from families where the mother the father everybody's borrowing money to send this boy to school you get there you become a medical doctor you hardly at home because you have a lot of shift so many patients to see first of all because in Nigeria we have about uh 4,000 patients to one doctor yes so I don't mind you know I I'm okay with seeing as many as I want to see you understand but what happens to me where do I go to after seeing everybody where where am I sleeping what am I eating all right let's bring in Osa because I hear her nodding uh you have something to add to this I was nodding because I had an experience where I went to the doctor to get a diagnosis and in the middle of diagnosing he was dozing off and I asked him I asked him are you okay he said yes I have been I'm not okay I have been working all day we do um a 100 one person to 100 people per day as a doctor that is crazy and I'm hearing 4,000 to a doctor that's even you know much more explosive I want to agree with something she said when she talked about looking at Dynamics there is the dynamic of privilege I I'm not trying to downplay your yes because she said that she she lived abroad all alive and then she came it's a different feeling when you're coming from there when you've you've been raised from there and you come down here we need to also look at the Dynamics of privilege when we're discussing these things we cannot give a on siiz fits all um um um approach or view to everybody's reason for leaving all right uh drct uh dopper let me let me get you for a second because you've been silently uh observing everyone very pensively what are your thoughts all right so I think um there is what I would describe as a push and P factors to to people living um something is forcing people out on the other hand something is being incentivized to bring people in it's important we know that the countries we're talking about to are not interested in taking the the worst of us so there's a dynamic we train skillful people at low cost and we have a huge huge population of young hardworking people yes and the question of course that uh Dr fer then comes to mind how do you incentivize him to stay you know how in in spite of these conditions okay so yes now there are several things we we can do to to incentivize him to stay uh firstly we have to answer the question of um our law for Country um I mean every every citizen of every country um should be primarily interested in their country first of all then secondly there are things that the government can do to make life a bit better for for people which is which is also what um I believe that we should be clamoring for not necessarily um because again we have to look at being resourceful we have to look at being resourceful we cannot you cannot have somebody have an opportunity to practice somewhere in the United Kingdom and the person would naturally want to be here I mean the person would obviously want to live for something better because that's the normal human tendency okay please go ahead I am let me just say this I am not against people leaving by all means do what you want to do but I'm often hearing some things like that side is amazing and it is not first on foremost we need to look at the color of our skin I'll say it here being black and being abroad is not friendly I was in America I was basically I was American I was Black American so now that's even different than being an immigrant in America it's a extremely different experience everyone should go and have a blast but those stories we hear about people living abroad and how they feel they are very valid and true so by all means if you rather deal with racism over tribalism go and have a blast but I don't want people to think that automatically once you go it's going to be amazing even if you are that skilled excellent Talent you will still face challenges so my charge is that if you're going to go please just take those resources and please bring them back to Nigeria we need it that's it we need it there was there was another statement here from the back team I just want to say I would rather be discriminated against in a foreign country than be killed in my own country and then you don't have to do nothing to be killed in Nigeria there's something called um don't let Nigeria it's a phrase don't let Nigeria happen to you and what that means is don't let the system fail you and I think a lot of people are leaving because Nigeria has failed one too many people and if we all I mean if this country is empty maybe the government would finally wake up because they' be sleeping on the bicycle okay okay now there's something interesting which I discovered as I was doing research on this topic which is where exactly Nigerians are going and not surprisingly the countries that top the list are Canada US Europe and only one African country featured on that list and that was Ghana so if the idea is to better your lives and not really to live in the abroad as we are saying why not move to fellow African countries why not go to Sagal can anybody help me with that answer developing country I mean so I'm sure you know what is happening currently in Ghana you know the situation in Ghana currently is a developing country yes true but I mean if hold on if you're telling me that the problem is uh infrastructure internet access to health care there are many African countries which can support you in those fields okay so tell me one or two of the country Kenya is one of them okay I agree with you so I'm not saying that you no remember that I didn't mention I'm just trying to figure out if it's a fantasy about living in a western world or if it's about truly improving your life you had a point and then I'll come to you okay so um what I wanted to talk about is where he mentioned that the um disadvantage um outweighs the advantage but he doesn't mind right I want I wanted to ask him like have you checked the number of people who are currently trapped and who are in trouble but can't come back home I mean even in the countries that you attracted to that you think everything is Rosy and beautiful and then you can develop your skills there are so many Nigerians that are ATT traed but cannot come back home so that's the point I wanted to make and the effects after the effects years later are devastating we don't talk about mental health issue a lot in this country we don't even care about it like uhuh you fell down stand up stop being silly we have a system of Shame when people Jacka and they don't make enough money they come back home and people are laughing at them when people go through stuff they come and so they hide that shame so there is already that system we have so many things we need to change it is not just the government it is US each and every one of us how our mindsets there is pride when a child goes abroad and then he's sending money home to build houses and all so there is that shame I'm coming back home I'm going to hide myself you know even here let's forget about people that go abroad even here right you would see you would see someone riding a big car and you see someone checking and it toast you would you agree with the you wouldn't because there's already that ingrain in us from when we were little girls are raised to be a competition with each other you know so it is it's it's a hard topic but yes the shame is there it is in family it is in every system every unit from the family so if we're going to build confidence has to start from the family so we're going to change that with this generation all right oh we've never had clapping mid debate before something yes you can uh and as Dr F says something I want you to think about Solutions right I completely agree with what she said you understand having the the shame is not just only about if you leave and you're forced to come back if you feel in Nigeria too you will hi yourself so nobody wants to fail there's also the the issue of the the glamour you mentioned why don't people go to other African count it's true everybody wants to be with white people I don't know why I don't understand it but I would say this lastly right if you want to move you move a purpose you have a skill you have a reason you know your plan you know what you're going to do and you have to come back for sure you understand don't leave a lot of people and it's true there are more people leaving without a plan without a purpose more than that those living with purposes okay so at the beginning of this debate uh there was a question of whether you believe and trust that what the government is doing right now is enough to secure your future because that's really what you're fighting for uh and I want to see do how many people would rather stay based on this conversation today how many people will say I'm going to be Nigeria come with me okay we're not going to have manipulation of the election here all right and okay and let's see how many people would still want to japper okay I think we're almost split down the middle so the question is how do we make sure that not that people don't leave there's nothing intrinsically wrong with people wanting to immigrate and leave but that people want to come back and build this country how does that happen any ideas um first I think it's very important that we look within like we've been talking about purpose I think it's also very key that we need to be honest with ourselves and do research I know many people are speaking from a point of frustration and anger but we can even look at this current um you know Administration from states to the federal government there are so many more young people so many more technocrats educated people who deserve to be in their positions that are actually getting positions this time around different than what we have possibly seen in the past I want people to realize that we do have some of the infrastructure that we want but because we speak from a point of anger that we kind of just dismiss things so we have to absolutely look within and most importantly again we need to run for public office okay let me hear from young one of the young people who said that they would want to stay would you like to speak to me okay um what do you think it would take for you to say that I'm never going to leave Nigeria or even if I do I'd really want to come back and settle here nobody here talks about Nigeria's educational system which is like really terrible I'm currently in 31 and I've seen people like constantly not attend classes but those of us that like always read at nights like steady classes we don't get that score and people that don't attend the class they just pay the lecturers or something and they pass so even that is it's really discouraging for me to like okay I want to stay in Nigeria like learn because even if I work hard get the degree get my first class everything if I don't have the right connection if I don't have the money getting a job is like really difficult so you you don't see any way that you know your stance on japa is going to change no it's not going to change but I actually have the intention of going abroad getting a good degree getting the like technology because most of the technology are not available in Nigeria so going abroad getting the degree the knowledge especially coming back to Nigeria and like try to help yeah yes and develop it thank you all right let's hear some more solutions before we wrap this debate please all right so for you you're giving me a solution of how to stay and you want to leave yeah it's a problem Sol no uh so for me I think it's about mindset I think it's about you becoming the value player in wherever you find yourself I think about you thinking about the fact that you are the assets to the country and not a liability thinking about the fact that you are a solution provider okay so that purposeful living that you were talking about so earlier at the beginning of this uh debate we did have a very simple question why are so many Nigerians leaving in droves I think we've heard the very many reasons should they stay should they go I think they will continue to go and whether or not they come back is something that we only have to wait and see well something we don't have to wait and see is you next time for our show thank you for [Music] watching

Channel: DW The 77 Percent

Views: 190,005

Keywords: DW, DW Africa, Africa, japa, Nigeria, streetdebate, africa'syouth, 77percent

Id: U2WJs1hrclc

Length: 26min 0sec (1560 seconds)

Published: Fri Feb 09 2024