Jordan Peterson on Prison Violence and Sadists | PKA

when was in your career academically because I'm sure that you notice the posts or neo Marxism and all that throughout your academic career what was it was it one big thing one big trend do you notice that got you really into combating this or is it just been a long slow burn until it just reached a breaking point if I have to speak up well I've been unhappy about the lack of criticism of Marxist doctrine for a long time because i steeped myself in the literature especially in the literature regarding the horrors of the Soviet Union which are manifold and deep and so that's always been well it's it's I mean I think it's it's it's not the same thing but you know it's it's akin in some sense to being a Jew if no one knew anything about what happened with the Nazis that's that I mean I nodded you and I don't have that right in some sense you know you know what I mean but the fact that what happened in the Soviet Union isn't memorized by everyone in high school is an absolute crime they figure a hundred million people died in China you know because of the Cultural Revolution a hundred million that's like as many people died in World War two is that when Mao was having everyone shoot the birds yeah that's that's exactly it yeah when he hears great what happens when you have one guy like just dreaming up his ideals and ideas for like what would make this gigantic place even bloody shoe Birds he thought the birds were eating his crops and if you eliminate all the Littlefield's birds of any kind then our productions would go so so so far up but the birds were eating the insects that prey upon the crops massive famine at tens of millions died so so yeah so okay so so there's that always percolating in the back you know and and I became a great enemy of ideology as a consequence of familiarizing myself with the literature on totalitarianism and then the PC thing really piqued in the 19th early 1990s I peaked around 1993 and I was not happy about it at that point but it receded I think the economy improved so bloody dramatically that everybody just quit out you know had a life instead of pursuing this but then it just came back with a vengeance like five years ago four years ago and then it manifested itself in Canadian law and this compelled speech thing it's like well it made it personal for me it's like because there was now a legal requirement that I I'm very careful with my language I've watched myself talk now carefully since 1985 so I'm always watching myself talk you know to feel whether or not the words are making me solid or making me weak and I don't I'm not willing to have someone extend legislative Fiat over the nature of my utterances I would rather die and I mean that seriously I really mean that because I can't I know that what well I can't mean it any more seriously than that and I actually mean that and I took great risks in the last year I mean I'm not complaining about that in the least and and it's worked out wonderfully but I'm not allowing my language to be taken over by ideologues I fear something that happened in 85 that changed the way that you thought about your speech yes what happened was it was I went out to this maximum-security prison and I was taken out there by this very strange psychology professor that sort of took a shine to me and he was a very creative person and he was the prison psychologist and he invited me to come out there a couple of times and so I went out there and I had a number of strange experiences out in the prison one of them was I was in the prison gymnasium which looked a lot like a high school gymnasium surrounded by these guys that were like real monsters you know like this was a maximum-security prison the one one of the guys I remember was completely tattooed very muscular like a scar running from here to here that was like this thick you know like someone's his chest with an axe and when I was in the gymnasium I was wearing this cape that I bought in Portugal and these long boots that I bought it was a kind of a 18 G clothes yeah yeah and all these guys came around and started to offer to trade me their clothes for mine you know and the psychologist just get it off somewhere and left me in the middle of it he probably did that he had his own reasons like I said he was an eccentric guy and this little guy came up and said that the psychologist had asked him to accompany me somewhere whatever and so I went with him because he looked preferable to these monsters that were around me and we went out into the yard through the doors just like a high school out through the double doors out into the yard and we got about 20 30 yards away and then the prison psychologist showed up at the door and motioned us back I didn't think much of it this guy was about five six or something like that kind of nondescript guy and so the psychologist took me into his office and said that he had taken two policemen and made them dig their own graves and shot them in cold blood when they were begging for their lives because they had children and so that really made me think hey that sort of thing makes you think as I thought well that's nondescript guys look look what he did and then about a week after that I heard that another prisoner that I had met and a second one had taken a third prisoner who they thought was a rat and they had taken a lead pipe and pulverized one of his legs with it so just you know literally pulverized it at the same time I was having these weird experiences that was in class and I would get this impulse to buy jabbed my pan into the neck of the person in front of me and I think it wasn't a powerful impulse and but it was a dark impulse you know and and it's I think people have impulses like that more often than and I think about tripping people in public constantly yeah well white is pathological but no but anyway so that was really disturbing me oh and then I was thinking about all this and one of the things I did was decide to I was trying to understand how someone could do the trick with the pipe because I thought I couldn't understand that so I really thought about I meditated on it I would say probably for about three weeks and I can really think about things with a fair degree of concentration and I really thought about that obsession I would say and I thought about that obsessively for about three weeks and what I realized was that because I thought how could I do that that was the question not how could someone do that I wanted to know that someone was a person and I'm a person and people can do such things and so I tried to put myself into the mental state that would allow me to do that and then what I realized was that I could do it and that it would be easier than I thought and that impulse by the way went away so I thought that was pretty interesting - what was it that finally got you to that point of like oh like I could do that was it just you know imagining ruminating on it for so long that just imagining doing it imagining the action imagining finding the pipe imagining pick like like visualize it you know was it was it visualizing the act or was there any part where you try to dream up or create a circumstance in which you would be no angry or I mean I guess that was part and parcel of the background but it was more it was more narrative free like it was just wow it was just the act because that would be my path yeah if you asked me to do that I would say oh well what if this person did X Y & Z to me or mine yeah right Vinnie's lucky I let him keep the leg right yeah you know it's easy to get there no I was thinking more of the torture or routine you know where there's there's no there's no motivation for it except what it completes it include sadism it's hard to get into that yeah that's got to be a lot harder to convince yourself that you could do it like that's insane like a Nazi guard tower I was reading about that sort of thing you know yeah so are you say doesn't disgust me in a way that I have a hard time making that understanding true sadism just the the enjoyment of inflicting pain upon another like it really disc me in a way out there that's right well I don't leave me I felt like that is the other to me no light like those people if you those aren't people anymore it by my definition the people who have lost that ability those are the people who need to be stepped on by like snakes right a little different okay I like dr. Peterson I feel like I could be that guy but the reason I'm not is thing we mentioned earlier about this whole you are the author of your own life story right you know are you going to be the villain in this story yeah you get to decide whether you're the heroic main character or something other than that and that's why I'm not torturing people that's why I'm not beating people because you know as this thing gets written I want to be the good guy I like that well we know one of the things that's it's written this is something I learned from Carl Jung to who I was reading at the time because he talked a lot about the encounter with the shadow and is that it's really useful to know that you could be the villain it's unbelievably useful to know that because it gives you a aura that might be one way of thinking about it that you can't get any other way it gives you a kind of seriousness then you can't get any other way because like you know let's say someone's pushing on you and you need to push back it's like well you have to be able to push back and the question is well how much would you push back well if you know that you're the villain there's almost no limit to how hard you push back and that actually makes you that what would you put that would that puts you into food into a position where you're someone that has to be contended with it's like that little flavor of insanity you know that's it's helpful say in a fight did you kind of crazy yeah well that's look part of the reason why those movies are so popular is exactly that everyone's attracted to that villainous psychopath that's unpredictable no there's a heroic element to that that's the antihero obviously but the reason there's a heroic aspect to that is because unpredictable Psychopaths might be more virtuous in a developmental sense than naive it and much more likely to survive and much more useful in say a thief a village or a smaller community in our past that guy who's thinks of himself as a bit of a villain maybe he's not very nice to his own people well it's about what he does to the enemies right like if if if my tribe is clashing with yours it might not be enough that we just go and conduct warfare we may need a villain in charge who says no no we're going in there tonight and we're going to cut all the throats and we're going to take all the women and then they'll deal with on our terms yeah you know you need a Vlad the Impaler out there with those bodies on spikes so that the invaders don't make it all the way to your castle you know what okay so then so then there's a question that arises out of that and that's part of the question that Carl Jung was trying to answer which is well given given the lack of utility of naivety and weakness and the extreme danger of malevolence how do you balance those and his answer to that was something like well I'll tell you something I learned recently so there's this line in the New Testament that reads the meek shall inherit the earth and that's a line that's always I've always stumbled over that because I thought that's there's something wrong with that there's something wrong with the way that that's interpreted and translated so when I was doing one of these recent biblical lectures I really looked into that line and I found the Greek word that that the translation of meek was derived from and I read a bunch about it a bunch of different translations and it doesn't mean meek it doesn't mean like cringing milk soft type of beak what it means the real translation of that is something like the world will be inherited by those who have weapons and know how to use them but choose to keep them sheathed and that is a very different man that is a way different and so this villainy element it's something like men and women know this this is why Beauty and the Beast is a canonical female archetypal story men need to be men need to develop the capacity capacity for monstrous behavior and then master it and that's that's yogi that's yulian developmental pathway in large part cuz that's what the encounter with the shadow means like you said of the shadow that the shadow in mankind soul reaches all the way to hell and he meant that is he meant that as much as anyone can mean a statement like that and he'll is the Nazi concentration camp or the Gulag Archipelago and and with you as the you know as the guard and that's in you now it's in some of us more than others let's say but yes you know that it seems like the better alternative at least another alternative is to empower the people situationally right like I had a manager early in my career and before he worked with me he was a marine and he said that the sort of marine you want in peacetime is different than the marine you want in wartime right in wartime those crazy guys breaking the rules and stealing the motorcycles or whatever they're perfectly useful they're fantastic they're absolute animals that go in there and ravage the enemy but they're real pain in the ass in peacetime you know well that's a problem well you know you have different soldiers for different yeah times I know Marines not a soldier but you know and the same thing could be true you know in all sorts of scenarios the person that you empower to be your leader yeah make sure they fit the situation yeah yeah well I think that's certainly the case the I think that part of the reason that what I've been saying has resonated with young man too is that they're they're taught now so so comprehensively to never be harmful and it's very difficult to distinguish that from being castrated and useless you know and to be a tomcat that does nothing but lay on the TV and stay warm you know and every man knows that that's that harmless is not heroic it's not the same thing and so then the question is well what do you do with the fact of your darkness and the answer to that is you don't suppress it you don't from it you don't ignore it you master it you introduce a man there's almost like a measure of shame with harmlessness where you see someone who's harmless who's a man and you almost have like a resentment for them of like you're not really doing your part yeah right you're you're giving me these you know fake smiles pretending to be someone you're really not every girl's friend you know and it's the standard romantic comedy trope is like it's the guy who's the nice guy who's trying to be every girl's friend he's he he does dreadfully in the mating game and that's partly because women deep inside them women know that that's a corn it's a real corn and that a man like that is only half there and he's saying well why don't you sleep with me I'm nice to you it's like that's the best you can bloody well muster up is that you don't do anything offensive gosh yeah it's it's pathetic you know boring yeah well that's boring there's no adventure there you know when I took me a long time to realize that Beauty and the Beast was the canonical female archetype method methodological archetype you know is that a woman who wants a man who's a tameable monster that's what she wants and why wouldn't she Jesus of course no you know it's kind of a pain in the neck to live with a monster but it's much more of a pain in the neck to live with someone who will collapse at the first sign of calamity yeah you guys said that nice guy is boring he lacks utility he's useless that's my issue with that right if all you can do is like say kind words and sit in the couch and watch television you're a bum right yeah yeah he's probably like not even a funny guy because we start identifying those men who clearly have penises as women can we just decide that now can we refer to them as trans women not only then I'm mandating that you refer to the mystery I'm remanding no no ma'am we know you're not gonna get physical just stop getting some red-faced ma'am I do agree with dr. Peterson seems to be a pretty safe bet agree with it like it it does seem like that resentment and then like ironically those guys who are just the quote nice guide to the women eventually they come around and I think every man has seen this with friends they come around to resent women because they go I'm putting all of these these tokens into women and I'm not getting my sex deposit like what's going on and then of these double spectrums they go from one end of the spectrum to the other those are the guys you City spouting like the most disgusting like vitriol toward females online like like every woman is this every woman is that when I do this that I get that look at what they choose instead of someone like me it's it's only because of these flaws that are inherent to females look how flawed the female race is them I do see I do think that that's most characteristic of men who do the raping orangutan routine unsuccessfully and then they take it out on women and I think that one of the problems with confused women is that they they can't distinguish between those mean men and men with true Authority and power they because they conflate the meanness with the authority and power and that's and then everything what go ahead with the orangutangs the the males who appear to be more like females is that do the females buy into that I guess it's my clue do the females see these males as one of them there I don't know I don't know what their social hierarchy is like but I imagine like big male with the leather thing on his neck he's over there on his own doing his thing and then up in the trees it's like the women the females and the beta males do the females sort of see the beta males and interact with them as if they are more solitary than another great ape so so first of all I would say less is known about their social arrangements but they're much less social than the bonobos and the chimps and the gorillas so if you're interested in that that there's a great book called demonic males by Richard Wrangham and Peterson I don't remember Peterson's first name might be Chris but trying them anyways and and it great book I mean it's wonderful it's a wonderful romp through primatology and another guy that's really worth reading his friends de Waal who wrote I think it's called chimpanzee politics and he looked at the like the what partly the biological basis of morality that's one way of thinking about does he look into into any of that study where prostitution quickly fell into its groove within the the chimpanzees that they taught what currency was talk I don't think that was de Waal but his stuff is equally interesting he's been studying chimps at the Arnhem zoo for one of the things he found for example was that chimp hierarchies that are run by tyrannical chimpanzees are very unstable and the tyrannical chimpanzee tends to get torn to shreds by two of his subordinates hmm right and the more stable chimpanzee hierarchies are run by chimps who are very good at collaborative social relationships because with other males but that also spend a lot of attention pay a lot of attention to the females and the infants and so it's so cool because he documented the instability of chimpanzee tyranny it's really important work man I mean that's that's a quarry fascinating it is I think we're pretty interested in great apes anyway especially Taylor so oh yeah let me guess interest in Apes and monkeys is off the charts I'm sorry Kyle carry on taste in women wasn't that something we were referring to much earlier that's what he liked no it's tailored totally tailored chimp women with hair on their backs and fatty faces

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Length: 21min 50sec (1310 seconds)

Published: Fri Feb 07 2020