Joe Rogan Talks Artificial Intelligence with a Yale Professor

how much time have you put into artificial intelligence and a lot we do a lot of work in my lab on AI what about sex robots like what rules should they give for sex robot yeah how much could that damage interpersonal relations yes that's a great question that's exactly the right question in my view so our concern with sex robots from a liberty point of view should not in the slightest be whether you enjoy a sex robot it's your business all right the entire body what you want I really don't I see I find I would be hard-pressed to to object the problem is would set but let's back up from the less provocative it let's come back to sex well let's take a simpler example first let's took let's talk about your children talking to Alexa okay so the person who designs Alexa wants to make your child's experience easy and pleasant and as part of the programming of Alexa because they want to make Alexa the obedient servant of your child it doesn't require your child to say please Alexa would you you know play the music for me your child can be as rude as she wants to Alexa and Alexa will do what she wants what you should be concerned about however is not your child's interaction with Alexa what you should be concerned about is what your child is learning from interacting with Alexa that then she takes to the playground so now she's rude to other children so Alexa is corroding our social fabric Alexa in this example is making children rude to each other so our concern is not so much do we make and do we make you know like Asimov's laws of robotics do we we it's not that we want to program the robot so that they're don't harm you we'd it's true the first law we don't want the robot to through an act of commission or omission harm or allow a human to come to be harmed it's that we're concerned about how the robot in interacting with you might cause you to harm others the robot the robotic intelligence creates these externalities these cascade effects so in the Alexa example we might want to regulate the programming of devices that speak to children not because we want to deprive your daughter of the right to speak how she wants but because we recognize that that robot is gonna cause your daughter to be rude to other people is it really do you really think yes the Alexa what's the that that would make usually but surely I think it will contribute so that's a it's an example it's not like I'm not arguing that Alexis should become ornately you think it's so novel to kids that they know it's not a person I don't think it really alright but we're using these examples to build a thing so let's talk about the sex robot okay so some people believe that actually the the the the emergence of sex robots which will surely appear in the next ten or twenty years will will be a fantastic boon they think that you'll people be able to experiment you'll be able to experiment with same-sex relationships for example group sex you might learn to be a better lover so you could practice with the robots and therefore you'd be more experienced when you were having sex with a real human so they say that you can't get venereal diseases from a sex robots you can't hurt their feelings so people think that the argument based on ethical grounds is that this would be terrific that this will be a benefit other people have the opposite opinion other people think that actually having sex with robots first of all is symbolically and and conceptually vile they think that you know it did take sex and converts it into a kind of a machine literally a machine like you know function and they furthermore think that it would result in you in one having a kind of anonymous or impersonal interactions with humans subsequently that you'll be entrained you know to let's say want an obedient you know partner for example I don't have a stand on this like I don't know which way it's going out and in a way I don't have to get make a stand on it because what I'm interested in recognizing is that when we talk about having allowing people to have sex with sex robots not allowing there it's gonna happen the focus of our concern should be not what is your experience in your bedroom when you have sex with a sex robot our concern is a state like my interest I have no stake or control over what you're doing over there but my interest is in in once you have had that experience how does that change how you interact with other people right and there I think just like anything else like you can you can make all the garbage you want in your house but if you start polluting the environment you're harming me so now I have a reason for intervening in your activities on your land you can't pollute your own land if that pollution runs off onto my land hmm and so the similar argument can be made or look at autonomous vehicles here's an example right now we have all roads almost all roads have just human drivers and in 20 or 30 years almost all roads will probably have only non human drivers machines will drive and those autonomous vehicles probably can be yoked together they can communicate with each other so that you'll have like like trains of cars moving in synchrony like each of them will be communicating with the other nearby cars and you'll have laminar flow where all these vehicles are smoothly moving and joining the highway and leaving the highway and communicating on a citywide scale slowing traffic down miles away because they anticipate with AI that there'll be a jam here if they don't do that and and I think that'll be actually great I'm actually looking forward to autonomy I mean I still like to take my car to a speedway but you know DRI itself would stick which I like but you know but in between we're gonna have a world of what I call hybrid systems of human driven cars and autonomous vehicles coexisting in an on a plane or an even plane and we need to be worried about that because these autonomous vehicles when we interact with them are gonna change how we interact with each other for example do we program the autonomous vehicle to drive at a constant steady speed if you're the designer of the car you might say gee I don't want this car to crash I want the car to drive in a very predictable fashion and that that's what's best for the occupants of the car that's what's gonna allow me to sell more vehicles but it may be the case that actually when people are in contact with such a vehicle they get lulled into a false sense of security oh that vehicle never does anything new I don't need to pay so much attention to the car in front of me I just drive you know at a steady clip and then they veer off and they go to a part of the highway where they're just human drivers and now having been lulled into a false sense of security they cause more collisions he's not paying attention so that autonomous vehicle has changed how I Drive in a way that harms other people so maybe the programming of the vehicle should be to occasionally do erratic things to like suddenly slow down or speed up a little bit obliging me to stay vigilant and pay attention as I'm interacting with that car so that then when I go to another part of the highway when I interact with just humans I have retained that vigilance once again the lesson here is is that it's not just about the one-on-one interaction between the robotic artificial intelligence and the human being it's about how the robots affect us and in my lab we do many experiments in social systems where we take a group of people and we drop online we drop a bot or in the laboratory we have a physical robot and we watch how the presence of the robot doesn't just modify how the human interacts with a robot but how the humans interact with each other so if we put a robot right there looking at us with its third eye would we you know would it change how you and I talk to each other make us different mmm that's the experiments we're doing well clearly in the sex robot realm that's gonna be a problem I mean we see the difference between humans that have porn addictions yeah that's a good example yeah porn addictions when people do they develop this very impersonal way of communicating with people and they they think about sex and the objectification of the opposite sex and a very different reason a very different way if flavors the way you flavors your expectations yes yes and it makes it difficult it can make it difficult for you to have normal sexual relationships it has come to see if your expectations are are guided by porn and that is going to be radically magnified by some sort of artificial life form that you create that's indistinguishable yes if you can have an indistinguishable sex partner yeah it is you know some incredibly beautiful woman that is a robot and then you or man let's go man women quite happy to change their spouses for robots I wonder if women are gonna be as into it as men because I think women divide desire more emotional intimacy I think I mean on on a scale then men do I I think I think the jury's still out on know what what the relative balance between men and women we might be surprised that that will be replaceable given x's societal expectations and women conformed those and yes a lot of men can be sure so it could go both ways I don't I'm not prepared to make a prediction who's gonna be better off in the gender debate with the emergence of sex robots well maybe your way you suggest I don't know well we're also in this realization genetically where they're doing genetic experiments on humans and with the advent of CRISPR yes emerging technology in the book too entirely possible that there's not gonna be any frumpy bodies anymore that that's hundreds of years away but yes yes I think so I wonder I mean I don't know if it is I think if they start cracking them out in China and they start giving birth to eight foot tall supermen yes 12 inch dicks yes it's gonna have a real issue yes yes we will yes that's the least of it yes entirely possible that in the future they're gonna have that that we're gonna that's likely humans yes I think that is likely the debate is how far in the future so I don't think we're gonna start by using these technologies to cure monogenic diseases so you know like fallacy Mia for example so a diseases or certain immune deficiencies a disease where a single gene is defective and and those will be the initial targets but once we start with that eventually I think there will be people who will want to genetically engineer other people their offspring for example and modified them in the ways that you suggest maybe not 12-inch dicks but maybe you know ability to run fast or something sure far smarter I mean yeah isn't that one of these side effects they showed with the genetic manipulation of these Chinese babies to eliminate HIV there that they made him smarter no I don't know if they made them smarter that what's clear from the most recent findings I've seen from that case is that unsurprisingly as anyone could predict the technology is not good enough to restrict the mutations to one particular region of the genome so there were other changes in the genome and these children that occurred elsewhere rather than the targeted region which was to increase their immunity to HIV right and we don't know what those are but those who kill those kids quickly we could make them better in some ways we have no way of knowing yet but I think the conclusion was that it increased their intelligence I don't I think it's I have not seen those results and I think it would be premature find that it would because they re mature to come to that go there because yeah there the problem is also sensationalist clickbait which is that's what you want to click you know not just that they do the HIV and they made them smarter it's gonna get like 40 percent more clerks yes versus you know yeah 40 percent that mean that's there's just the the nature of humans right yes just be clear I talked about the CRISPR example in in in blueprint I actually talked about these how these technologies again my lens on it is how these technologies are gonna change how we interact with each other and it goes back to the example we were talking about at the beginning when we invented cities that was a technology that changed how we interacted with each other mhm so human being said for a very long time had been inventing when we invented weapons that was a technology that changed how we interact with each other so we have previously done this kind of thing he's invented a technology that change how we interact with each other and I'm very interested in in the and discuss some of those implications yeah I'm I'm incredibly interested in this because I I love to study history and I love to study like how crazy the world was four thousand five thousand years ago a thousand years ago yes what it's going to be like in the future I think our understanding of the consequences of our actions are so different than anybody has ever had before we have just such a broader first of all we have examples from all over the world now that we can study very closely which I don't think really was available to that many people up entirely recently you mean I'm sorry you're saying the examples are more numerous or a capacity to discern them as higher our capacity to discern them and just our in-depth understanding of these various cultures all over the world like this like what do you've been telling you today about these the divers and others we just have so much more data yes and so much more of an understanding than ever before yes I love the idea that we are I mean I believe that this is probably the best time ever to be alive I think that it's probably I think that's true I think there's certainly a lot of terrible things that are wrong in the world today also true but I think that there's less of that and more good that Taylor for know I think that's right and but one of the arguments that I make is this is a kind of Steven Pinker argument that you're outlining which is you know with the emergence of I mean people are living longer than they ever have on the whole planet fewer people in starvation we have less violence I mean every indicator of human well-being is up yes and it's partly due or largely due in the recent last thousand years to the to the emergence of the Enlightenment and the Phyllis the philosophy and the science that was guided that emerged about 300 years ago and two hundred and some-odd years ago and and culminating in the present and continuing so I think I think this is not just the kind of so-called Whiggish view of history it's not just a progressive sort of fantasy I think it's the case that these philosophical and scientific moves that our species made in the last 200 years has improved our well-being however as we've been discussing today it's not just historical forces that are tending towards making us better off a deeper and more ancient and more powerful forces also at work which is natural selection it's evolutionary and not just historical forces that are relevant to our well-being and we don't just need to look to philosophers to find the path to a good life natural selection has equipped us with these capacities for love and friendship and cooperation and teaching and all these good things we've been discussing that also tend to a good life so so yes I totally agree with you we're better off today than we've ever been on average across the world however it's not just that that's contributing to our well being the this natural selection is literally why we are in this state now and why we were hoping this trend will continue yes we will be in this better place 50 years from now 100 years from now well natural selection doesn't work over those timescales so those are historical forces but the point is we are set up for success yes you know we are equipped with these you know you're given five fingers which make it possible thumb which allows you to manipulate tools so natural election has given you an opposable thumb culture lets you use a computer do you worry about the circumventing of this natural process by artificial intelligence that artificial intelligence is going to introduce some new incredibly powerful factor into this whole chain of events that by having sex robots and sex or robot workers yes things becoming automated yes this I'm concerned I mean this is I think I'm I'm very concerned about how technology is gonna affect our economy the these again these concerns were not the first generation to face these concerns there was similar concerns with the Industrial Revolution that workers were being put out of work when machines were invented nevertheless work persisted people still had jobs to do there was a disruption there's no doubt about it I think Google and the information revolution and these types of robotic automation are disruptive they're going to affect how we allocate labor and capital and data in our society there's no doubt about all of that I thought you were alluding to just to check if you were to the debate which I don't know the answer to on whether AI will you know is are we gonna face like a Terminator type existence where you know the machines rise up and kill us all or not and you know very smart people are on both sides of that debate and I read them all and like I'm like he's right and then they read the guy that has the opposite pen I'm like no no he's right and then it goes back and forth I don't know who's writing what goes back to nuance right yes it is nuance but it's hard to know whether again we're not talking over our lifetime over hundreds of years yes you know is there time a thousand years from now when the human beings will say what the hell were our ancestors doing inventing artificial intelligence they're wiping us out and I don't know the answer to that question well I think there's an issue also with the the concept of artificial like artificial life artificial intelligence it's I think it's going to be life it's just going to be a life that we've created and I don't think it's artificial I just think it's a different kind of life I think that we're thinking of biologically based life of sex yes you know reproduction in terms of the way we've always known it as being the only way that life this but if we can create something and that something decides to do things it's live on its own yeah it's silicon-based life-form like why not why why does like I have to be something that only exists through the you know motivation of cells yes that's very charitable of you and its people make that claim some people think that you know those machines in the distant future will look back at us as like one stage of evolution that eliminated in them that we're I've always said that we are some sort of an electronic caterpillar yes know that it's gonna give birth to a butter is making your cocoon we don't even know he was going that's a great metaphor I have a hard time accepting that because you're a person yes it's against my interests we're so flawed all these things we've outlined those are go away with artificial intelligence is a deep philosophical question Joe I mean I don't think it's inevitable and I think if the single-celled organisms are sitting around wondering what the future would going to be like where are we gonna be replaced will they make antibiotics and kill us yes what's guess they are gonna mean this is I mean we are so flood when the great the ocean we do pull the fish out of it do you [ __ ] up the air commit genocide there's all these things that are real but the artificial life won't have those problems because it won't be emotionally based it won't be biologically based it'll just exist that's a really good story we're so flawed why not we're very we are flawed but we are flawed I think it's beautiful too but I think vultures probably think they're beautiful too that's why they breed with each other well they are beautiful but but the point is I think we have a flaw Judy I like I'm gonna stick to my principles that we are despite our flaws worth it but there is something wonderful about us and I think that wonderful creative quality is the reason why we created artificial life in the first place hmm it's like this this variation we've had that impetus you know if you look at a lot of the the art whether it's the Egyptian you know the the the pyramids or other kinds of artistic expression we seem to have had a desire to transcend death you know to make things that that looked like us but weren't alive right forever rightly so I mean I think in that regard I think you're quite right that it's not gonna stop that Tennessee's not gonna stop now you're you're very as I said charitable positive take on the claim and your analogy to single-celled organisms which were just you know but a fleeting not a fleeting they're still there but a phase in our evolution you know is something I'm gonna have to be thinking about because it's disturbing honestly well it's an objective perspective if I took myself out of the human race which I really can't but if I tried to fake it I would say oh I see what's going on here yeah these are yes these dummies are buying iPhones and new MacBooks because they they know that this is what's going to help the production of newer more superior technologies the more we consume it's also based I think in a lot of ways our insane desire for materialism is fueling this yeah and it could be an inherent property of the human species that it is designed to create this artificial life and that literally is what it's here for and much like an ant is creating an anthill and doesn't exactly have some sort of a future plan you know it's kids and it's 401k plan that what we're doing is like this inherent property of being a human being our curiosity our wanderlust our desire culture things yeah all these things are built-in because if you follow them far enough down the line in a hundred years 200 years it inevitably leads to artificial life yes I think I think that's possible and of course we're not going to be alive to test that idea there's a Sun well maybe with CRISPR and all this crazy [ __ ] that's coming down come on no there's nothing's gonna happen the pace of innovation people always have good say if you go back every decade people saying just around the corner just around the corner these things that are take forever they're very hard biological systems are very hard to engineer I don't and you know of course the people who do that kind of work will often I think a lot of them engage in snake oil you know they'd want to fund their was sure but I think it's entirely possible that there's a 20 year old listening to this podcast possible maybe a lot more than that

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Id: 4svUKPeDa5A

Length: 22min 14sec (1334 seconds)

Published: Thu Mar 28 2019

Reddit Comments

[u/Cadenca]

Straight to the sex robots, not 10 seconds in