Joe Rogan Experience #1470 - Elon Musk

welcome back here we go again great to see you and congratulations thank you you will never forget what is going on in the world when you think about when your child is born you will know for the rest of this child's life you were born during a weird time that's for sure no that is for sure they're probably the weirdest that I can remember yeah yeah and he was born on may the 4th and that's lairs - yeah William has to be hopeful I sure hope so perfect yes I mean that was the perfect day for you I'm yeah what how do you say the name well uh there's a placeholder and first of all my partner's the one that actually mostly came up with the name congratulations to her yeah yeah she's great at names so I mean it's just X the letter X and then the AE is like pronounced ash yeah and then a 12 a 12 is my contribution o ye 12 Archangel 12 the precursor to the sr-71 coolest plane ever I I agree with you I don't know I'm not familiar with it I know one is yeah yeah yeah I know what that is the sr-71 came from a CIA program called a cold Archangel oh it's the Archangel project and then Archangel 12 wow what a dope looking plane yeah oh okay I got it yeah well as a person who's very much into aerial travel as you are well that's perfect it's pretty great yeah pretty great so is it does it feel strange to have a child while this craziness is going does it feeling you've had children before is this any weirder it's actually I think it's better being older and having a kid I appreciate it more hmm yeah babies are awesome they are pretty awesome they're awesome yeah but I didn't have any of my own I would see other people's kids and I didn't not like that sure but I wasn't drawn to them sure but now when I see little people's kids I'm like oh I think of a minute like these little love packages yeah the love books yeah it's just you think of them differently when you see them come out and then grow and then eventually start talking to you like your whole idea what a baby is is very different yeah so now as you you know get older and get to appreciate it as a mature fully formed adult it must be really pretty wonderful yeah wonderful that's great but babies are awesome yeah yeah that's uh that's great yeah I mean also have I I've spent a lot of time on AI and neural nets and so you can sort of see then kind of the brain develop which is you know what and they I know neural net is trying to simulate what a brain does basically and you can sort of see the it learning very quickly you know it's just wow see things fight so you're talking about the neural net you're not talking about an actual baby no right action an actual baby well both of them yes but the word neural that comes from the the brain it's like a net of neurons so you know it's like the yeah humans are the you know yeah so when you're programming artificial intelligence were you working with artificial intelligence art are they specifically trying to mimic the developmental process of a human brain in a lot of ways there's some ways that are different yeah you're an analogy that's often used is like you know we we don't make a submarine swim like a fish but we take the principles of how you know what would hydrodynamics and applied them to a submarine I've always wondered as a layperson do you try to achieve the same results as a human brain but through different methods or do you try to copy the way a human brain achieves results I mean the essential elements of an AI neural net are really very very similar to a human brain neural net yeah having the multiple layers of neurons and you had a backpropagation these all these things are what your brain does you know it's a yeah you have you have a layer of neurons that goes through a series of intermediate steps to ultimately cognition and that and then it'll reverse those steps go back and forth and go all over the place it's um yeah it's interesting very interesting yeah I would imagine like the thought of programming something that is eventually going to be smarter than us that one day it's gonna be like why did you do it that way like when artificial intelligence sentient they're like oh you tried to mimic yourself like this so much better process cut out all this nonsense they're like so they're elements that are the same but just looks like like an aircraft does not fly like a bird right yeah it doesn't flap its wings but the wings the way the wings work and generate lift is the same as bird now you're in the middle of this this strange time where you're selling your houses you say you don't want any material possessions and haven't seen all that and I've been really excited to talk to you about this yeah because it's an interesting thing to come from a guy like yourself like why are you doing that I'm slightly sad about it actually but look if you're sad about it why are you doing it I think I think possessions kind of weigh you down then they're kind of an attack vector you know you'll say hey billionaire you got all this stuff like well I'm downer stuff now what were you gonna do attack vector meaning like people targeted yeah mmm interesting yeah but you're obviously gonna so you're gonna rent a place yeah okay and get rid of everything that's up close no I said like almost everything so it's like keep a couple Tesla's yeah house kind of have to yeah that's product and stuff um yeah there's things that have sentimental value for sure keeping those here yeah so do you feel like is what's worse think it happen okay fine yeah yeah you could always buy more stuff if you don't like it supposed to yeah I mean from the money that you sell all your stuff you could buy new stuff but do you feel like people define you by the fact that you're you're wealthy and that they define you in a pejorative way for sure I mean not on your own but right you know there's for sure in recent like you wrote years billionaire has become a her job you like it's in a pejorative it's like it's like that's a bad thing which I mean I think them doesn't make a lot a lot of sense in most cases if you if you've done if you basically organized the company like kind of how does this wealth arise it's if you organize people in a in a better way to produce products and services that are better than what existed before and you have some ownership in that company then that that essentially gives you the right to allocate more capital so it is it's that there's a conflation of consumption and capital allocation so let me take Warren Buffett for example and forget totally Frank I'm not his biggest fan but minoo he does like capital allocation and he reads a lot of a lot of sort of annual reports of companies and what will be counting and it's pretty boring really and he's trying to figure out is he does Coke or Pepsi deserve more capital I mean that's I mean it's kind of a boring job if you ask me but you know it's still a thing that's important to figure out like which it is a company deserving of more or less capital should that company grow or expand is it making parts and services that are better than others or worse and you know should you know if we kind of a company is making compelling products and services it should get more capital and if it's not it should get less well got a business well there's a big difference - between someone who's making an incredible amount of money designing and engineering fantastic products versus someone who's making an incredible amount of money by investing in companies or moving money around the stock market or doing things along those lines it's it's a different thing and to put them all on the same category seems it's it's very simple and as you pointed out it's an attack vector yeah for sure yeah I mean I think it's really I I do think they're in the in the United States especially there's an over allocation of talent in finance and law basically too many smart people go into finance and law so you know this is both a compliment and a criticism we should have I think fewer people doing law and fewer people are doing finance and more people making stuff yeah yeah well that would certainly be better for all involved if they made better stuff yeah yeah absolutely and and you know manufacturing used to be highly valued in in the United States and these days it's not it's it's often looked down upon which i think is wrong yeah well I think that people are kind of learning that particularly because of this whole pandemic in this relationship that we have with China that there's a lot of value in to making things into making things here yes somebody's got to do the real work yeah you know and you know like making making a car it's an honest day's esthar honest day's living that's for sure you know or making anything really or providing valuable service like providing you know get our entertainment get information that these are all valuable things to do you know so yeah it should be more more of it did you have a moment where is this something that this idea of getting rid of your material possessions is something that built up over time or did you have a moment of realization where you realize that yeah I've been thinking about it for a while you know part of it is like I like I have a bunch of houses but I don't spend a lot of time in most of them and that doesn't seem like a good use of assets like somebody could probably be in turn those houses and get better than me so don't you have Gene Wilder's house I do that's amazing that's awesome Wow yes it's exactly what you'd expect did you request that the buyer not [ __ ] it up yeah that's a requirement a requirement that's a good requirement yeah not in that case in that house yeah it'll probably sell fast but still I don't care he's a legend I want his soul you'd want his essence yeah in the building it's and it's there that's a real quick is it quickie house yeah what what makes you say it's there look what do you get out of it I mean all the all the cabinets are like can't handmade and they're like odd shapes and there's like doors to nowhere and strange like corridors and tunnels and really odd odd paintings on the wall and yeah did you ever live in it it's very quirky yeah I did live in it briefly yeah but why do you buy houses like if you own all these houses do you just get bored and go I think I'd like to have that well I you know had one house and then the gene Wilder house right across the road from me from from my main house and it was gonna get it was gonna get sold and then torn down and turned into you know be a big construction zone for three years and I was like well I think I'll buy it and preserve the spirit of gene water and not have a giant construction zone and then the you know I started having like some privacy issues where like people would like less people like come to my house and you know start climbing over the walls and stuff I don't like man so then I started like what a house some of the houses around my house and then I thought at one point well you know it'd be cool to to build a house so then I acquired some properties at the top of Samara Road and which has got a great view and it's like okay well these some bunch of sort of small older houses they're gonna get torn down anyway I was like well you know like collect these like little little houses then I can build something you know I don't know artistic like a you know dream house to everything what's a dream house for Elon Musk like some Tony Stark type [ __ ] yeah definitely yeah you gotta have the dome that opens up with the stealth helicopter and that kind of thing you know yeah for sure [ __ ] yeah yeah okay but but then I was like man do I really what it doesn't really make sense for me to spend time designing and building a house and I'd be real you know get a like OCD on the little details and the design and or should I be allocating that time to getting us to Mars I should probably do the latter so you know like what's more important Mars or a house I like Mars okay is that really how you think like that I'd be better off planning on a trip to Mars or getting people to Mars yeah definitely I mean you can only do so many things right right so how you I don't know how you do what you do anyway I don't understand how you can run bolt with a boring company Tesla SpaceX all these different things you're doing constantly I just don't understand I mean you explained last time you were here how you sort of allocate your time and and how hectic it is insane I still don't that the productivity is baffling just doesn't make sense how you can get so much done well I think I do have high productivity but even with that there's still some opportunity cost of time and allocating time to building a house even if it was a really great house it still is not a good use of time relative to developing the rockets necessary to get us to Mars and helping soil sustainable energy SpaceX and Tesla are by far you know by the the most amount of like brain cycles you know boring company does not take you know it's like molest 1% of rate cycles and and then this neural link which is I don't maybe it's like 5% and then 5% that's a good chunk it's good job yeah yeah we were talking about that last time and you were trying to figure out when it was actually going to go live when it's actually going to be available by testing on people right now no we're not testing people yet but I I think it won't be too long I think we may be able to implant in your link in less than a year in a person I think and when you do this is there any test that you have to do before you do something like this to to see what percentage of people's bodies are going to reject these things is it but is it there is there a potential for rejection it's a very low potential for rejection I mean you can think of it like people put in you know heart monitors and you know things for epileptic seizures and deep brain stimulation obviously like you know artificial hips and right knees and that kind of thing so the probability of I mean like it so it's well known like what will cost rejection what what will not it's definitely harder when you've got something that is rate of reading and writing neurons it that's that's generating a current pulse on reading counter pulses that's just a little hotter then then it then it's a passive device but it's still you know very doable and yeah that there that there are people who have primitive devices in their brains right now what kind of devices I would like deep brain stimulation is providing for Parkinson's is has really changed people's lives in a big way which is kind of remarkable because we're it kind of like zaps your brain it's like kicking the TV type of thing yeah and you think like man kicking the TV shouldn't work it does sometimes yeah yeah the old old TVs they did my grandpa used to slap the top for sure yeah it would work sometimes yeah so this deep right simulation I implanted devices in the brain that have changed people's lives for the better like fundamentally well let's talk about what you can talk about to what neural link is because the last time you were here I really couldn't discuss it and then there was a I guess a press release something that sort of ironed yeah that happened quite a bit after the last time you were here so what exactly is it how do you do what what happens if someone ultimately does get a neural link installed what will take place well for version one of the device it would be it basically implanted in your skull so but it would be such a flush with your skull so you basically take out a chunk of skull replace put the new relic device in there you put the the electrode you didn't sort the electrode threads very carefully into the brain and and then you you know stitch it up and and you wouldn't even know that somebody has and then and and so then it it can interface basically anywhere anywhere your brain so it could be something that you know helps cure say eyesight like give you roberto's your eyesight even if you've like lost your object of type of thing like really yeah yeah absolutely hearing absolutely um maybe pretty much anything that were that it could in principle fix almost anything that is wrong with the brain and it could restore limb functionality so if you've got an interface into the motor cortex and then an implant that's say that's like a microcontroller near muscle groups you could then create a sort of a neural shunt that restores somebody who is a quadriplegic to full functionality like they can walk around be normal whoa yeah so maybe slightly better slightly better over time yes you mean with future iterations like but you know although I states that would be a six billion dollar so the the hole would be small how big with the Hobie that you have to drill and then replace with this piece there's only one hole well yeah the device working on right now is about it's about an inch in diameter and your skull is pretty thick by the way so skulls are for sure it might actually literally I mean pure big if you're a big guy your skull is actually fairly thick skulls like it's like seven to fourteen millimeters so I love a couple of inches a half-inch no happier six ago yes so yeah so that that's a fair bit of like our our we got quite a coconut going on it's not it's not like some eggshell oh yeah I believe you so the yeah basically implant device and so you would be like a one inch square one inch in diameter yeah like a so an inch circle like a circular yeah I think like a like a SmartWatch or a dearth okay yeah okay so you take this one inch a minute like ice fishing right you ever go ice fishing no but I'd like to it's great yeah it's really fun so you basically take an auger and you drill it take through the surface of the ice yeah and you create a small hole I can dunk your line in there so this is like that you're ice fishing on the top of your skull and then you cork it yeah and you replaced that say one-inch diameter piece of skull with this arrow like device and that has a battery and a Bluetooth and a inductive charger and then you and not and then you get in so with the electrodes so that lectroids very carefully inserted with our with a robot that we developed that's look it's you know very carefully putting in the electrodes and avoiding you know and any veins or arteries so it's it doesn't create trauma so through this one inch diameter yeah device electrodes be inserted and they will find way like tiny wires face tiny wires anywheres and they'll find their way to specific areas of the brain to stimulate no you literally put them where it where they're supposed to go oh okay yeah you soon so how long will these wires be I mean they usually go in like you know depending on where it is like you know two or three millimeters so they just find the spots yeah Wow and then again they you put the device in and that that gets that better replaces the little piece of skull I was taken out and then you you stitch up the hole and and you just have a look like a little scar and that's it well this would be replaceable or reversible yes like if someone can't take it I'm too smart I can't take it yeah totally and what is the besides restoring limb function and eyesight and hearing which are all amazing is there there any cognitive benefits that you anticipate from something like those yeah I mean you could for sure I mean basically it's a generalized sort of thing for for fixing any kind of brain injury in principle like you've you or if you've got like like severe epilepsy or something like that it could it could just gets just sort of stop the episode epilepsy from occurring like you could detect it in real time and then fire a counter pulse and stop the epilepsy if I mean there's a whole range of brain injuries I could people someone gets a stroke they could lose the ability to speak into that battle spectacle so we've fixed so she could get like stroke damage or if you lose say you know muscle control over part of your face or something like that I think and then when you get old you tend to if you get like you know Alzheimer's or something like that then you lose memory and that this could help you with you know restoring your memory like I think we're storing memory and what what is happening that's allowing it to do that like the wires these small wires yeah stimulating these areas of the brain and then is it that the areas of the brain are there they're losing some sort of electrical force like what it what is happening yeah yeah it's like to think of us like a bunch of circuits and there's some like circuits that are broken and we can like fix those circuits it substitute for those circuits circuits and so a specific frequency will go through this yeah just a specific in that we is the process figuring out how much or how little has to be how much these areas of the brain have to be juiced up yeah I mean there's still a lot of work to do so when I say you know we've got a shot at probably putting in a person in you know a it was in a year I think that's well that's exactly what I mean I think we have a chance of putting input into one and having them having them be healthy and and restoring some functionality that they've lost the fear is that eventually they're gonna have to cut the whole top someone's head off and put a new top with a whole bunch of wires if you want to get you know the real turbocharged version the P 100 D of brain stimulation I mean ultimately if you if you want to go with full AI symbiosis you'll probably want to do something like that symbiosis is a scary word when it comes to AI it's optional I would hope so yeah it's just I mean once you enjoy the dr. Manhattan lifestyle once once you become a God seems very very unlikely you're gonna want to go back to being stupid again I mean you literally could fundamentally change the way human beings interface with each other yes yes you wouldn't need to talk [Laughter] I'm so scared of that but so excited about at the same time is that weird yeah I mean the I think this is one of the paths to you know I think like what a like a is getting better and better so now let's assume it's sort of like a benign ni scenario even in a benign scenario we're kind of left behind you know we're not we're not along for the ride we're just too dumb right so so how do you go along for the ride and so you can't beat them join them so and we're already we're already a sidewalk to some degree right cuz you've got your phone you got your laptop closes yeah yeah Ghidorah your electronic devices yeah and I mean we're today if your phone if you if you don't bring your phone along it's like you have missing limb syndrome it's like you know feels like something's but really really missing so we're already partly partly a partly a cyborg or a iesson buyout essentially it's just that the data rate to the electronics is slow so it's very specially output like you're just going with your thumbs and I mean like what's your data rate maybe optimistically a hundred bits per second that's being generous and now the computer can can't communicate at it like you know 100 100 terabytes so so it certainly you know get gigabits or a trivial at this point so this is like you know basically you can your computer could do not do things a million times faster or at a certain point it's like talking there's like talking to a tree okay just boring you talk to a tree it's not very entertaining so so if you if you can solve the data rate issue and you're especially I put input - then you can improve the symbiosis that is already occurring between man and machine so you can improve it in what when you said you won't have to talk to each other anymore we should joke around about that I've joked around about that a million times in this podcast that one day in the future there's gonna come a time where you can read each other's minds and well you'll be able to interface with each other in some sort of a nonverbal not non-physical way where you will transfer data back and forth to each other without having to actually use your mouth yeah exactly so when you like what happens when you like let's say you've got some complex idea that you're trying to convey to somebody else and how do you do that well your brain spends a lot of effort compressing a complex concept into words and there's a there's a lot of a lot of loss an information loss that occurs when compressing a complex concept into words and then you say those words those words are then interpreted then they're decompressed by the person who is listening and they they will it best get a very incomplete understanding of what you're trying to convey it's very difficult to convey a complex concept with precision because you've got compression decompression you may not even have heard all the woods correctly and so communication is difficult what we have here is a failure to communicate Luke yes there's an interpretation factor to like you can choose to interpret certain series of words in in different ways and they're dependent upon tone dependent upon social cues even facial expressions sarcasm there's a lot of variables sarcasm is difficult yes yeah and so when I'm one of the things that I've said it's like that there could be potentially a universal language that's created through computers that particularly young kids would pick up very quickly like my kids do tick-tock and all this jazz and I don't know what they're doing they just know how to do it and know how to do it really quickly like they learn really quickly they show me how to edit things and yeah it's if you taught a child from first grade on how to use some new universal language I mean essentially like a rosetta stone and something that's done with that interprets your thoughts and you can convey your thoughts with no room for interpretation with clear very clear where you know what a person saying and you can tell them what you're saying and there's no need for noises no need for mouth noises no need for yes these sort of accepted ways that we've sort of evolved to make sounds that we all agree we through our cultural district Marian Wright we agree or certain we could bypass all that yeah you can still do it for four fundamental reasons right like campfires yeah exactly I don't need campfires I don't need to roast marshmallows was fun so yeah yeah I think you would in principle you would be able to communicate very quickly and with far more precision ideas and and language would I'm not sure what would happen to language but you could probably get within a situation like this that you would be able to just kinda like the matrix you want to speak it of language no problem right that's why it was to download the program right so at least for the first iterations first few iterations we'll just be able to use like I know that Google has their some of their pixel buds have the ability to interpret languages in real time sure yeah you can hear it and it'll play things back to you and whatever language you choose so to be something along those lines yeah for the first few iterations well the first few iterations are about what I'm talking about it's like in the limit over time you know with a lot of development the first few iterations really in the first few versions all we're gonna be trying to do is it's all pair brain injuries um so it's like don't don't worry that there's not gonna sneak up on you because this this will take a while how many years before you don't have to talk if the if the development continues to accelerate then maybe like five years five to ten years that's quick that's really quick that's the best-case scenario no talking anymore in five years best-case scenario ma'am tens more like it I've always speculated that aliens could potentially be us in the future because if you look at like the size their heads and the fact that they have very little muscle and then they don't use their mouth anymore they was tiny well I mean the archetypal ain't alien that you see in like Close Encounters of the Third Kind they they're like if you went from like Australia Pittacus or ancient hominid to us what's the difference less hair less muscle bigger head and then just keep going thousand a million whatever your or five years whatever it whatever happens when neural link goes on online and then we slowly start to adapt to this new way of being where we don't use our muscles anymore we have this gigantic head we can talk without words you could also save state and save state save state like save your brain state like like a save game in a video game whoa like like if you want to swap from Windows 95 well yeah I think we are Windows 95 right now future perspective probably but yeah I mean you you could save state and restore that state into a biological being if you if you wanted to in the future I'm principal is like knowing like for physics standpoint that prevents us now you'd be a little different but then you're also a little different when you wake up in the morning from yesterday and you're a little different in fact if you say like you five years ago versus you today is quite a big difference yes so you'd be substantially you I mean you'd be you'd certainly think you're you but the idea of saving yourself and then transforming that into some sort of a biological state like you could hang out with 30 year old you I mean the possibilities are endless [Laughter] I mean these things think like how your phone can you can record videos on your phone like there's no way you could remember a video right as accurately as your phone or a camera you know could so if you've got like it you know some some yep version 10 your link whatever in far in the future you could you could remote you could recall everything but just like it's a movie critic including all the entire sensory experience emotions everything everything everything and play it back thank you she added it yeah so you can change your past you could change what do you think was your fast yeah well so if you had like a stressful thing right now could be a replayed memory it could be yeah it may be what's the odds of this being a replayed memory you had a guess it's more than 50% there's no way to assign a probability with accuracy here right but roughly if you just had a just gut instinct well I don't happen you were linked in my brain so I say right now is your a percent but at the point of what you do have in your link then it rises above 0% the idea that we're experiencing some sort of a preserved memory is even though it's still the same it's not comforting right for some reason when people talk about simulation theory they talk about the potential for this currently being a simulation it's even though your life might be wonderful you might be in love you might love your career you might have great friends but it's not comforting to know that this experience somehow or another doesn't exist in a material you can knock on feels real to feels real but but if it's not but the idea that it's not is for some strange reason disconcerting what yeah I'm sure should be disconcerting because then if this is not real what is well but but the you know there's that old sort of thought experiment of like how do you know you're not a brain-in-a-vat you know right now here's the thing you are a brain an event then that faddish your skull yes and everything you see feel hear and what everything all your senses our electrical signals everything everything is an electrical signal to to arraign an event where the batteries rose gold and all your hormones all you neurotransmitters all these things are drugs adrenaline is a drug dopamine's a drug you're a drug factory they're constantly changing your state with love and oxytocin and and beauty sure changes your state great music changes your state absolutely and yet here's another sort of interesting idea which is because you say like where did consciousness arise well assuming you believe the belief in physics which appears to be true then you know we the universe started off as basically quarks and leptons and quickly became hydrogen and helium lithium like basically elements the periodic table like mostly hydrogen basically and then and then over a long period of time you know 13.8 billion years later that hydrogen became sentient but so where along the way that concha where isn't that consciousness what's the line of consciousness and not consciousness between hydrogen and here right when do we call it when do we call it consciousness I was watching a video today that we played on a podcast earlier of a monkey riding a motorcycle down the street jumps off the motorcycle and tries to steal a baby yeah so that one it what is that monkey conscious it seems like it is seems like it had a plan it was riding a [ __ ] motorcycle and then jumped off the motorcycle tries to steal a baby seemed pretty the one that just subtract baby down the street pretty far yeah yeah seems pretty conscious right that's definitely some degree of consciousness there yeah it's not like it's not a worm it seems to be on another level yeah and it's gonna keep going and that that's the real concern when when people think about the potential future versions of human beings especially when you consider symbiotic relationship to artificial intelligence it will be unrecognizable that one day will be so far removed from what this is we'll look back on this the way we look back now on you know simple simple organisms that we evolved from and then it won't be that far in the future that we do have this this view back well I hope consciousness propagates into the future and gets more more sophisticated and complex and and that understands the questions to ask about the universe do you think that's the case as a human being as yourself you're clearly trying to make conscious decisions to be a better version of you right this is the idea of like getting rid of your possessions and realizing that you're trying to like I don't like this I will try to improve this I would try to do a better version of the way I interface with reality that this is always the way things are if you're if you're moving in a some sort of a direction where you're trying to improve things you're always gonna move into this new place we look back in the old place and go I was doing it wrong back then so this is an accelerated version of that yes super accelerated version of that I mean you don't always improve but you can aspire to improve you can aspire to be less wrong yeah it was like I think it good the tools of physics are very powerful like just to see me wrong and your astral goal is to be less wrong I don't think you're gonna if you succeed every day and being less wrong but you know if you can't succeed in being less wrong most the time you're doing great that's a great way of putting it aspire to be less wrong but then when you know people look back in nostalgia about simpler times there's that too it's very romantic and exciting to look back on campfires because they'll have a campfire yes yeah but we appreciate it when you're a super nerd when you're connected to the grid and you have some skullcap and it's in place of the top of your head and it's interfacing with the international language that the rest of the universe now enjoys communication with people and we're yeah sure right that thinks oh yeah I like at first I'm just worried I mean everyone's always scared of change but I'm scared of this monumental change where we won't we won't talk anymore I mean that thing yes but that's there's something about there's something about the beauty of the crudeness of language where when it's done eloquently it's it's it's satisfying and it hits us in some sort of a visceral way like oh that person nailed it I love that they nailed it like that it's so hard to capture a real thought and convey it in a way this articulate way that makes someone a great quote by a wise person it makes you excited that their mind figured something out put the words together in a write with it makes your brain pop like oh yes yeah yes clever compression of a concept yeah and a feeling but the fact that a human did it - yeah do you think that it'll be like electronic music like people won't appreciate it like they appreciate a slide guitar I like electronic music I do - yeah while you make it I know you like art yeah yeah yeah yeah I mean I hope you're sure it's more fun and interesting and we should try to make that way I hope it's more fun and interesting - yeah I just you know I just hope you don't lose anything along the way when I lose little obviously we gain more than lose yeah that's the thing right gave me more than we lose like something that makes us interesting is that we're so flawed I stopped for sure alright yeah I mean you look at civilization through the ages most of them you know they rose and fell yeah and I do think like the globalization that that we have at these sort of like the the mean sphere is there's there's not enough isolation between countries or regions it's like if you get up if there's a mind virus that that mind virus cannot infect too much of the world you know like I actually sort of some ties with the anti-globalization people because it's like man we don't ever want to everywhere it'll be the same for sure and and then we we need some kind of like mind viral immunity so that's it's a bit concerning mind viral immunity meaning that once something like neural link gets established the real concern is something that mean you said it's Bluetooth right or some future version of that that the idea is that something could possibly get into it [ __ ] it up no I'm talking about like somebody there's some cockeyed concept that that's happened that happens right right now mm-hmm y know this viruses and embedded chips right like people have they've embedded chips and then acquired viruses that what I'm talk about in mind voice I'm talking about like a cake concept of that it affects people's minds oh okay okay like cult thinking or yeah I'm sort of fundamentalism yeah wrong had an idea that yes goes viral in a an idea sense mm-hmm well that is that that is a problem too right if someone can manipulate that technology to make something appear logical or rational yeah yeah that would it would that be an issue to with this is a very have versus have-nots issue right once this thing if this really does I'm initially it's going to help people with with injuries and but you said ultimately it could lead to this spectacular cognitive change yes but the people that first get it should have us a massive advantage over people that don't have it yet well I mean it's the kind of thing where your productivity would improve I don't know dramatically maybe by a factor of 10 with it so you could definitely just you know I don't know take out a loan and do it and earn earn the money back real fast yeah super smart but in a capitalist society you know you could it seems like you could really get so far ahead that before everybody else could afford this thing and link up and get connected as well you'd be so far how they could never catch you is that a concern uh well I think the I'm just not a super huge concern I mean there are huge differences in cognitive ability and and resources already yeah I mean you can think of a corporation as like a cybernetic collective that's far smarter than an individual like III couldn't personally build like a whole rocket and and the engines and launch it and everything that's impossible but you know we have 8,000 people with SpaceX and you like piecing it out to different people and using like computers and machines and stuff we can make lots of rockets launched at all but duck with the space station and that kind of thing you know so that already exists where this you know where those corporations are vastly more capable than an individual but the the yeah like we should be I think less concerned about like relative capabilities between people and more like they're having AI be vastly you know beyond us and decoupled from human will decoupled from humans so this is the if you can't beat them join them yeah I mean so you feel like it's inevitable like a sentient AI is essentially inevitable super sentient AI yeah look beyond a level that's difficult to understand and impossible Tarzan probably and somehow or another us so it's almost like it's a requirement for survival to achieve some sort of symbiotic existence with AI it's not a requirement it's just if you if you want to be along for the ride then you need to do some kind of symbiosis so the way your brain works right now you've got kind of like the animal brain reptile brain kind of lets frogs they like the limbic system basically and you've got the cortex now that the brain purists will argue with this definition but essentially you've got the primitive brain and you've got the the sort of smart brain or the brain that's capable of planning and understanding concepts and different difficult you know things that a monkey can't understand now the your cortex is much much smarter than your limbic system nonetheless they work together well so I haven't met anyone who wants to delete their limbic system or the cortex they're people quite happy having both so we can think about this as being like that the computer the AI is it's like a third layer of tertiary layer so that is like that could be symbiotic with the cortex if we much smarter than the cortex but you essentially have three layers and you actually have that right now your phone is capable of things and your computer is capable things that your brain is definitely not you know storing the terabytes of information perfectly doing incredible calculations that you know we couldn't even come close to doing you have that with your computer it's just like I said the data rate is slow your the connection is weak why is it so disconcerting or why is it why does it not give me comfort to think about like when I think about a symbiotic connection to AI I always think of this cold emotionless sort of thing that we will become is that a bad way to look at it I don't think that's that's not quick that's not how it would be it likes it you you already are yeah sabbatic with AI or computers phones computers laptops yeah and this this quite a bit of AI going on you know so artificial neural Nets increasingly neural nets are sort of taking over from regular programming more and more so you are connected you know if you use Google Voice or Alexa or one of those things it's using a neural net to decode your speech and try understand what you're saying you know if you're trying to image recognition or improve the quality of photograph it's it's using the neuron that's the best way to do that so you are already sort of it's sort of a cybernetics my oat it like said you know it's just a question of your data rate the the communication speed between your phone and your brain is slow when do you think you're gonna do it how long will you wait like once it starts becoming available yeah if it works I'll do it sure right away I mean let's make sure it works how do we make sure it works we try it on prisoners like what do you do no no rapists no cut holes in their head I like said if somebody's got a serious brain injury right and there you know people have like very severe brain injuries then and then you can fix those those brain injuries and you know then you prove out that it works and you all Bluff expand and make me more and more brain injuries it sold more and more and then you know certainly at certain age we will are gonna get Alzheimer's we're all gonna get senile and then you know mom's forget the names their kids and that kind of thing and so you know dude it's like you said okay well you know this would allow you to remember your names of your kids and and have a normal they're a much more normal life where you you you were able to function much later in life so I think that so essentially that there would almost everyone would find a need at some point if if you get old enough to use in your own your link and and and then it's like okay so we can improve the functionality and improve the communications to communication speed so then you will not have to use your thumbs to communicate with the computer do you ever sit down extrapolate do you ever that like sit down and think about all the different iterations of this and what this eventually leads to yeah sure think about a lot there's like said this is not something it's gonna sneak up on you you know there's like getting FDA approval for this stuff is not like overnight you know and this this I mean we probably have to be on like version 10 or something before you know you it it would realistically be you know a human a ice and bio situation it see it coming you know you see it coming but what do you think it's gonna be like when you sit when you're alone if you have free time I don't know if you have free time but if you just sit down and think about this iteration the next onward keep going and you drag it out with improvements along the way and leaps and bounds and technological innovations and where do you see it what are we gonna be a and 2025 years from now what are we gonna be well assuming civilization is still around it's looking fragile right now I think we I think we could have a 25 years probably something I would think there could be a whole brain interface a whole brain interface so I'm pretty close to that yeah how does how do you define what do you mean by whole brain interface like almost all the neurons are connected to your these sort of AI extension of yourself if you want AI extension of yourself yeah what does that mean to you like when you say AI extension of yourself well you like said you already have a computer extension of yourself in your phone you know and computers and stuff so and now online it's like somebody dies there's like an online ghost that there get their stole their online stuff is yeah it's alive that's a good way to put it is weird when you read someone's tweets have their dad yeah yeah Instagram and their stories and yeah whatever Facebook it's not you know like you know it's like an online ghost that's very accurate yeah so yeah so that there's it would just be that that more of you would be in the cloud I guess then in your body or if it more of you Wow now when you say civilizations fragile do you mean because of this covet 19 [ __ ] that's going on right now what's that it's this thing you know it's like some people just get a copy over other people it gets much worse sure yeah well yeah I mean this certainly has taken over the mind space of the world to a degree that is quite shocking yeah well I don't know where that's what's crazy it's like you go back to November nothing now here we are December January February March April May six months totally different world so from nothing to everything's locked down there's so much conflicting information and conflicting opinions about how to proceed what what has happened you you find things where there was a meatpacking plant I believe in Missouri where 300 plus people or asymptomatic tested positive ray symptomatic and then in other places it just ravages entire communities and kills people and it's it's so weird it almost appears on the outlook if you didn't know any better you'd be like what it seems like there's a bunch of different viruses doesn't seem like it's the same thing or has a bunch of different reactions to the biological variety of people yeah I mean I I kind of sold this whole thing play out in China before it played out in the u.s. so it's kind of like watching the same movie again but in English yeah I might I think the thievery that the mortality rate is is much less than what is then what say the World Health Organization said it was it's very much much less acai probably at least order of magnitude less well it it seems to be very deadly to very specific kinds of people and people with specific problems yeah I mean if you're you can look at the mortality statistics you know by age and whether they have come whatever it come over it is like do they have like basically existing conditions and by age and you know if you're below 60 and and have no serious health issues the probability of death is extremely low it's not zero but it's extremely low they didn't think that this was the case though when they first started to lock down the country do you think that it's a situation where once they've proceeded in a certain way it's very difficult to correct course that's most like people really wanted a panic quite quite crazy but in some places a panic is deserved right look if you're in the ICU in Manhattan and people are dying left and right and everyone's on into baiters and it's a when you see all these people on ventilators and so many of them are dying and you see these nurses are dying and doctors are getting sick in some places that fear is justified but then in other places you're you're reading these stories about hospitals that are essentially half-empty they're they're having to furlough doctors and nurses because there's no work for them most of the hospitals in the United States right now half-empty or in some cases they're at 30% capacity and is this because they've decided to forgo elective procedures and and and normal things that people would have to go to the hospital for yes I mean and we're not talking about just some of these elective procedures are quite important yeah it's like you have a bad heart disease yeah sure and you need a you know triple bypass it's like sort of elective but if you don't get it done in time it's you're gonna die yeah it's electives weird word elective it's not like hey I wanna there's no like plastic surgeries like it's more like like my my hip is I'm an extreme pain because my my hips blown out or my knee and I don't want to go to the hospital I can't go to the hospital to you know people in extreme pain feel that need a kidney you know like people have to have like quite serious issues that are choosing not to go out of fear so I think it's it's a problem good it's C like the state of public perception is shifting it is like people are taking some deep breaths and relaxing and because of the statistics of I mean and and essentially across the board it's being recognized that it's not as fatal as we thought it was still danger is still worse than the flu but not as bad as we thought or are we feared it could be I'm an objectively the mortality is as much lower like at least a factor of 10 maybe a factor of 50 lower than initially thought do you think that the current way we're handling this the social distancing the mass the locking down is it does this make sense is it adequate or do you think that we should move back to at least closer to where we used to be well I think proper hygiene is a good thing no matter what you know wash your hands and you know and if you're if you're coughing stay home or wear a mask is not good you know if I could do that in Japan that's like normal if you're if you're Lu you wear a face mask and you know cough on people I think that that would be a great thing to to adopt in general throughout the world and for washing your hands also good well that's the speculation why men get it more than women because men are disgusting we don't want it are just it's true it's true gross ass go to the restroom because my nine-year-old daughter yells at me just did you wash your hands she makes me go back and wash my hands mmm she's right nine years I've had a nine-year-old boy do you think you'd care I wouldn't give a [ __ ] if I wash my hands sure so I think that there's this to play some silver linings here then in improved you know hygiene yeah and an awareness of potential yes and I think this has shaken up the the system systems like somewhat moribund with blood layers layers of bureaucracy and I think that we've you know cut through some of that bureaucracy and if we you know some point there probably will be a pandemic with with a with a high mortality rate you know that was a debate about like what's high but I mean like something that's killing a lot of twenty-year-old would say like we're like it's yes if you had like Ebola type of mortality Spanish flu something yeah actually just him some healthy people yeah yeah no but it's a yeah like like killing large numbers of young healthy people that that's you know defined that as like high mortality then that this is at least practice for something like that and I think there's this you know given it's just a matter a matter of time that there will be eventually some some such pandemic do you think that in a sense the one good thing that we might get out of this is the realization that this is a potential reality that we got lucky in the sense I mean in people that didn't get lucky and died of course I'm not disrespecting their death and their loss but I'm saying overall as a culture as a community as a human race as a community this is not as bad as it could have been this is a good dry run for us to to appreciate that we need far more resources dedicated towards the the understanding these diseases what to do in the case of pandemic and much more money that goes to funding treatments and and some preventative measures yeah absolutely and I think I think there's a good chance I it's highly likely I think coming out of this that we will develop vaccines that we didn't have before for corona viruses and other other viruses and and possibly it cures for for these and our understanding of viruses of this nature has improved dramatically because of the attention that it's received so there's definitely some you know a lot of silver linings here and potentially if we add correctly yeah yeah yeah there's I think you there will be some amount of lightning here no matter what hopefully more purpose of lighting up and less yeah so yeah this is this is a looks like kind of like a practice run for something had that that had a potential that might in the future have a serious like a really high mortality rate and we kind of got to go through this with without without it being something that kills you know vast numbers of young healthy people yeah when you made a series of tweets recently you know I don't remember the exact wording but essentially we're saying free America now like let's think that putting that is it thank you but the you know what was how much do you pay attention to the response to that stuff and what was a response like did did anybody mean what the [ __ ] you doing did anybody pull yourself who does that who gets to do that to you well I mean I certainly get that there's no shortage of negative feedback on Twitter war zone you do sometimes though right you do read it yeah I mean I scroll through the comments like says mean war zone yeah I mean people knife you're good and it's something I enjoy about that just there's a something about the the freedom of expression that comes from all these people that do attack you it's like well they if there was no vulnerability whatsoever they wouldn't attack you and there it's like there's something about these millions and millions of perspectives they you you have to you have to appreciate even if it comes your way even if the [ __ ] storm hits you in the face sure you gotta appreciate wow how amazing is it that all these people do have the ability to express themselves you doesn't don't necessarily want to be there when the [ __ ] hits you sure you might want to get out of the way in anticipation of the shitstorm but the fact that so many people have the ability to reach out and I think it's in a lot of ways it's a I want to say a misused resource but it's like giving monkeys guns did you start they start gunning down things in front of them without any realization of what they're doing they have a rock they see a window they throw it whoa look at that I got you on mad look at that this guy got mad at me this this I [ __ ] took this person down on Twitter I got this lady fired oh the [ __ ] business is going under because of Twitter wars it seems like there's something about it that's his new-found thing that I want to say abuse but just I want to say that it's almost like you know you hit the button that things blow up you're like wow this is what else can we blow up sure I mean I've been in the Twitter war zone for a while here so you know I take it takes a lot to to faze me at this point yeah that's meant to write like you develop a thick skin yeah you can't take it personally I have a little too cool and I can actually know you you know yeah it's just like you know so it's like if you're if you're fighting a war and there's like some opposing soldier that that shoots a shoots at you there's not like they hate you they don't even know you right yeah yeah so I'm just thinking like that like that fire and bullets or whatever but they don't know you so don't take it personally there's something interesting about it too it's like like when you write something in you know 280 characters and they write something into it it's such a crude way it's like you know someone saying sending opposing smoke signals there were a few your smoke signals it's like it's so crude and especially when you're talking about something like neuro-link he's talking about some future potential where you're gonna be able to express pure thoughts that get get conveyed through some sort of a universal language with no ambiguity whatsoever versus you know tweets well there'll always be someone big you 'ti but yeah it tweets or it's hard like that maybe there should be like your sarcasm flag or something right right or I'm not you know just kidding or whatever you know looked at you know that's like it would take away some of the fun from people that know it sarcasm like if everybody knew that the onion wasn't review sent people articles yeah it is something about someone getting angry and an onion article wow that's amazing you know I mean where they don't realize what it is there's something fun about that for everybody else yeah I think it's pretty great it might be the best new source do you know who did Tonia McGrath is hilarious it's a Andrew Boyle he's a British fellow a brilliant guy who's been on the podcast before and he has this fictional character this pseudonym - Tonia McGrath who's like this alt the ultimate social justice warrior it's just like a heaven a female avatar that's actually a computer conglomeration of a bunch of faces okay it's not really one person so one person can't be a victim and be angry you sort of combine these faces to make this one perfect social justice more okay but the thing I recognized it early on before I met him sure that this was parodied this is this was just fun and then I love reading the people that don't recognize that they get angry sure and they're really really like there's a lot of people that just get really furious sure about some of them there's some fun to that there's some fun to the not picking up on the the the true nature of the signal I find Twitter quite engaging how do you have the time white I mean it's like five minutes every couple of hours type of thing so like I said on all day but even five minutes every couple hours if those are bad five minutes they might be bouncing around in your head for the next 30 yeah you have to you know like said take certain amount of distance from you read this and like okay it's bullets being fired by an opposing army that you know don't like it's not like they like they know you it's like don't take it personally did you feel the same way when when CNN had that stupid [ __ ] about ventilators with you I found that both confusing and that was annoying it was annoying but it's also annoying as a person who reads CNN and wants to think of them as a responsible conveyor of the facts I think that yeah I don't think CNN is that I think you used to be used to be yeah like what he thinks the the best source of just like information out there that's a good question you know like a let's say you just like average citizens trying to just get the facts you know figure out what's going on like you know how to live your life and you know just looking for what's going on in the world that it's hard to find something that that isn't you know yeah that's that that's good yeah no but you know I'm not trying to push some partisan angle not trying to not sort of an Excel IV reporting and and just aim it for the most number of clicks and trying to maximize ad dollars and that kind of thing yeah you just trying to figure out what's going on it's like I'm hard pressed to where do you go I don't know I don't think there's any pure form I'm my favorite places are the New York Times and the LA Times and I don't trust them 100% you know because also there's individuals that are writing these stories exactly and that seems to be the problems these individual biases and these individual the there's purposely distorted perceptions and then there's ignorant Lee reported facts and there's so many variables and you got to put everything through this filter of where's this person coming from do they have political biases do they have social biases do they are they are they upset because of their own shortcomings and they are they projecting this into the story so it's so hard yeah I think like maybe just trying to find individual reporters that you think are good and yeah kind of falling damn as opposed to publication I go with whatever Matt Taibbi says okay I trust him more than anybody all right Matt Taibbi is onto something I just he's as far as investigative reporters in particular the way he reported the savings and loan crisis the way he reports everything I just I just listen to him above most above moe he's my go-to guy I'll check it out it's as Rolling Stones articles or his his stuff on the savings and loan crisis just like what in the [ __ ] sure you know and he wasn't you know he's not an economist by any stretch of the imagination so he had a really sort of deeply embedded in that world to try to understand it and to be able to report on it and was also with a humorous flair from now that's nice yeah yeah there's not that many of them there's hard and not a location we're like we are no [ __ ] sorry you know we are no [ __ ] calm like the one place where you can say this is what we know this is what we don't know this is what we think not this person's wrong and here's why like oh god damn it you know I can't you you don't know there's a lot of stuff that is open to interpretation yeah this this particular coronavirus issue that we're dealing with right now seems to be a great illuminator of that very fact is that there's so much data and there's this there's so much as open to interpret there's so many thing because it's all happening in real time right and like particularly right now in California we're in stage two tomorrow or Friday two days from now stage two retail stores opening up things are changing like what no one knows the correct process that needs to take place to save the most amount of lives but yet ensure that our our culture and that our our economy survives it's a lot of speculation and guessing but if you go to certain places they'll tell you we know why and we know this and we know it's hard yeah I mean in general I think that's like we should be concerned about anything that's a massive infringement on our civil liberties yes you know so it's like you got to put a lot of weight on that yeah people a lot of people died too you know when independence with the country and fight for the democracy that we have and you know we should treasure that and not and not give up our liberties too easily I think we think we probably did that actually well I'd like what you said when you said that it should be a choice and that to require people to stay home require people to not go to work required and to to arrest people for trying to make a living this all seems wrong and I think it's a wrong approach it's a it's a you're you're it's an infantile ization of the society daddy's gonna tell you what to do fundamentally a violation of the Constitution yeah freedom of assembly and you know it's just I mean I don't think these things stand up in court really they're arresting people for protesting yeah yeah because they're protesting and violating social distancing and these mandates that tell people that they have to stay home yeah this these were these were definitely not stand-up you know if the Supreme Court here I mean it's obviously a complete violation right yeah yeah and again this is not in any way disrespecting the people who have died from this disease it's certainly a real thing to think of yeah I mean it's it just should be if you're if you're at risk you should not be compelled to leave your house right or leave a place of safety but you should also not be if you're not at risk or if you are at risk and you wish to take a risk with your life you should have the right to do that and it seems like at this point in time particularly our resources we best served protecting the people that are at risk versus penalizing the people that are not at high risk for living their life the way they did particularly having a career and and making a living and feeding your family paying your bills keeping your store open keeping your restaurant open yes I mean there's there's a strong strong downside to this yeah so yeah I'm just believe like if this is a free country you should be you know a lot allowed to do you know what you want so long as it does not endanger others but that's the thing right people this is the argument they will bring up like you are in the during others you should stay home for the people that that you even if you're fine even if you know you're gonna be okay there's certain people that will not be okay because of your actions they might get exposed to this thing that we don't have a vaccine for we don't have universally accepted treatment for and then we need to there's two arguments right the one argument is we need to keep going protect the weak protect the sick but let's open up the economy the other argument is stop placing money over human lives and let's shelter in place until we come up with some sort of a decision and let's figure out some way to develop some sort of a universal income Universal basic income plan or something like that to feed people during the during this time oh yes transition I think yeah yeah as I said right there my pay is if somebody wants to stay home they should stay home I've said something doesn't want stay home they should not be compelled to stay home that's my opinion do you think if somebody doesn't like that well that's my opinion so the now yeah the this notion though that you you know you can just sort of send checks out everybody and and things will be fine it's not true obviously the there's some people have this absurd like view that the economy is like some magic horn of plenty like it just makes stuff stuff you know what it just there's a magic word aplenty and the goods and services they just come from this magic corn appointee and then if like if somebody has more stuff than somebody else's because they took more from this magic horn of plenty now let me just break it to you the fools out there if you don't make stuff there's no stuff yeah so if you don't make the food if you don't process the food you know transport the food and the weather you know medical treatment you're getting getting teeth fixed there's no stuff I become detached from reality the you can't just legislate money and sit and solve these things if you don't make stuff there is no stuff obviously we'll run out of the stores run out of the you know it's like hold the machine just grinds to a halt but the initial thought on this virus the real fear was that this was going to kill hundreds of thousands if not millions of people instantaneously in this country it was going to do it very quickly if we didn't hunker down if we didn't shelter in place if we didn't quarantine ourselves or lock down do you think that the initial thought was a good idea based on the perception that this was going to be far more deadly than it turned out to be maybe I think briefly briefly briefly but I think if you know any kind of like sensible examination of what happened in China would lead to a conclusion that that is obviously not going to occur this this virus originated in Wuhan there's like a hundred thousand people a day leaving one so it that it it went everywhere very fast it threw it throughout China throughout the rest of the world and the fatality rate was was low don't you think though it's difficult to appreciate it's it's it's difficult to the filter what the information that's coming out of China to accurately really get a real true representation of what happened they the propaganda machine is very strong sure what the World Health Organization appears to have been complicit with a lot of their propaganda the things that American companies have massive supply chains in China like contour Tesla for example we have hundreds of suppliers like Tier one two three four suppliers throughout throughout China so we know if they are able to make stuff or not we know if they if they have issues or not then they they're China is back back at full steam and and tells many pretty much every US company has some significant numbers fires in Chinese you know you know if they're able to you know provide things or not or if there's you know high mortality rate Maya Tesla has 7,000 people in China so zero people died hmm okay so that that's a real statistic that's coming from yeah yeah you know those people yeah we literally run payroll do you think there's a danger of this folks are there Blair do you think there's a danger of politicizing this whereas becomes like opening up the country's Donald Trump's it's his goal it's his in and then anything he does is sort of there's there's people that are gonna oppose it and come up with some reasons why he's wrong particularly in this climate was as we're leading up to November and you know the the 2020 elections do you think that this is a real danger in terms of public's perception that Trump wants to open it up so the knee-jerk oppose it because they oppose Trump I think there has been some flood is it this has been politicized you know in both directions really so it's which which is not great yeah but like I said separate apart and I think is the question of like you know way to civil civil liberties fit in this picture you know yeah and what what can the government make you do what can they make you not do and what you know what's what's okay right and yeah I think we went too far do you think it's one of those things where once we've gone in a certain direction it's very difficult to make a correction make an adjustment to realize like okay we thought it was one thing it's not it's not good but it's not we thought it was going to be it's not what we feared so let's let's back up and reconsider and let's do this publicly and say we were acting based on the information that we had initially that information appears to be faulty and here's how we move forward while protecting civil liberties while protecting what essentially this country is founded on which is a very agreed upon amount of freedom yeah that we respect and appreciate absolutely well I think we're rapidly moving towards opening up the country it's gonna happen extremely fast over the next few weeks so yeah so something that would be helpful just add from an informational level is when reporting sort of covert cases to separate out diagnose with covert vs. had covert like symptoms yes because I've the list of symptoms that could be covered at this point is like a mile long so it's like a hard to sure ill at all it's like he could be covered so just just to give you a better information definitely diagnosed with covered or had covered like symptoms we're conflating those two so that one that it looks bigger than it is then if somebody dies is was covered a a primary cause of the death or not I mean I mean if somebody has cover gets eaten by a shark we find their arm their arm has covered it's gonna get recorded as a covert death is that real not basically not that bad but heart attacks strokes get hit by a bus cancer if you get hit by a bus could go to the kick of the hospital and die and they find that you have covered you won't be recorded as a Cova death why would they do that though well right now the so you know say the road is hell is the road to hell is paved with good intentions I mean it's mostly paved with bad intentions but there is you know some good intention of saving stones in there too and the the the stimulus bill that was intended to help with the hospitals that were being overrun with with code patients created an incentive to record something as covert that is difficult to say no to especially if your hospital is going bankrupt for lack of other patients so the hospitals are in a bind right now there's a bunch of hospitals over there following doctors as you were mentioning their you know their hospitals half full you're it's hard hard to make ends meet so now you've got like you know I just checked this box I get eight thousand dollars and put on a ventilator for five minutes to get thirty nine thousand dollars back or or I got a fire some doctors so what's the what's in it now this is a tough moral quandary like what what you can do that's the situation we have know what what's the way out of this what do you think is like if if you have the president's ear or if people wanted to just listen to you openly what do you think is the way out of this so let's just clear up the data clear up the data so like that I just make sure we recorded as Co but only if it is somebody has been tested has received a positive positive Cova test thought if they simply have symptoms one of like a hundred symptoms and then if if it is a covert death it must be separate or was this was covered a primary primary reason for death or did they also have stage three cancer or heart disease emphysema and got hit by bus and had covered you have read all this stuff about that about them diagnosing people as a Cova death despite other variables this is not this is not a this is not a question this is what is occurring and where are you reading this from where are you getting this from the public health health officials have literally said this is not this is not a question mark right but this is never this is unprecedented right like if someone had the flu but also had a heart attack they would assume that that person died of a heart attack yes yeah so this is unprecedented is this because this is such a popular I don't use that word the wrong way but that's what I mean pop subject and financial incentives yes and like I said this is not some sort of a moral indictment of sort of hospital administrators it's just they're in it they're they're in in a tough in a tough spot here they actually don't have enough patience to pay everyone if it took without foolin a furloughing doctors and and firing staff and yeah this is a running potentially going bankrupt so so then they're like okay well the similar spill says if you know we get all this you know money if we say if if they if it's a Cova death I'm like ok they coughed before they died they in fact they're not even diagnosis code but they simply if you had weakness a cough shortness of breath but frankly I'm not sure how you died without those things yeah you yeah but there's so many different things that you could attribute to Cova - there's so many symptoms there's diarrhea headaches dehydration yeah off yes but to be clear you you you don't even need to have gotten a covert a crisis you simply need to have had one of yeah many symptoms and then have died for some reason and it's covered so so then it makes the death count look very high and then we're then stuck in a bind because it looks like the death count super high and not going down like it should be and now so then we should keep whatever you know keep you know the shelter in place stuff there and and keep people in their home you know confine people the homes so we need to break out of this this we're stuck in a loop yeah and I think the way to break out of this loop is to have clarity of information clarity of information will certainly help but altering perceptions public perception from people that are basically in a panic there's a lot of essentially well at least a month ago we're clearly in a panic I mean right weird yet you know when you look around April 5th April 6th people were really freaking out but here we are May and many people are relaxing a little bit yes they're realizing okay um I actually know a couple of people that got it it was just a cough and I know some people that got it the word nothing happened I know a lot of people who got it I know zero people who died and died I mean it bad no yeah a lot of people who got it yeah it's it's not what we feared we feared something much worse that's correct so the adjustments difficult to make so you said first of all we need real data you need it just parse out the data don't don't lump it all together no and then you know if you give if you get people just parse out the data better clearer clearer information about like said was this an actual curve a diagnosis or is it a did they get the test and the key test came back positiv or do they just have some symptoms just parse that those two out and then parse out just if somebody died did they die did they but that they even have a Cova test or did they just have one of many symptoms like like like how do you die without weakness I don't know it's impossible basically yeah good point you're gonna die you're gonna have shortness of breath weakness and you might kaufe little so so was it quantified what was it yeah did that person that do they actually have a Cova test and and the tests come back positive and then if they died did they die where we're covered was it isn't had to be the the main course but it was a significant contributor to their death or was it not a significant contributor to the death right it's not as simple as just because you had Kovac Kovac killed you this is definitely not right yeah yeah I mean people die all the time they have like flu and yes other colds and we don't say that they died if those flu and other colds well that's what's so weird I'm sorry it's so popular and I use that word in a weird way but it's so popular that we've kind of forgotten people died in ammonia everyday yeah people died of the flu didn't take a break Oh kovetz got this I'm gonna sit this one out I'm gonna be on the bench I'm gonna wait until kovetz done before I jump back into the game of killing people no the flus still here killing people I mean every year in the world several hundred thousand people die directly of the flu yeah not not ten gently right no every sixty one thousand in this country last year yeah and we're early five percent of the world and then their cigarettes so oh man cigarettes not cigarettes will really kill you that's a weird one right we're terrified of this disease that were projected it could potentially kill one hundred if not two hundred thousand Americans is here with cigarettes kill five hundred thousand and you don't hear a peep out of any politician there's no one running for Congress is trying to ban cigarettes there's no one running for Senate that wants to put some education plan in place it's gonna stop cigarettes in their tracks yeah I mean a long time like several years ago I mean is longer than ten years ago I helped make a movie called thank you for smoking oh yeah it yeah yeah it's crazy so we smokey barbecuing ilanics is bad just bad news doesn't it's not not good yeah you turning your lungs in smoke smoked beef and not great so yeah but it's a Tylenol surfing by the way he also kills a lot of people yeah what is the number of attack over here I'm sure the exact number but I believe it until the opioid crisis I believe Tylenol was the number one killer of all drugs because how basically it's if you have if you get drunk and take a lot of Tylenol acetaminophen essentially it causes liver failure so severe would like get get wasted and then like have a headache and then pop it's curtains Wow yeah curtains yeah you know so but nobody's like you know raging against tylenol yeah it's weird except acceptable deaths are weird and that's the real the slippery slope about this people shaming people for wanting to go back to work you know other people are gonna die well if you arrive do you drive we should stop driving because people die from driving so he's you know he definitely should fill up all the swimming pools because like 50 people die every day in this country from swimming so let's not swim anymore what is the we need to chop down all the coconut water coconut skill 150 people every year yes cut down the coconut trees we need those people yes it's at a certain point in time it's like yeah we're vulnerable and we're also we're also we have a finite existence no matter what we do nobody lives forever right I mean the the the I mean I think you want to look at say deaths as like the but for this disease whatever they would have lived X number of years yeah you know so you know if somebody dies when they're there they're 20 and could live till 80 they lost 60 years but if somebody dies when they're 80 and they might live till 81 they lost one year yes so it's it's like how many life years were lost is a probably the right metric to use I don't read my own comments but I do read other people's comments and I was reading this one little Twitter beef that was going on where someone was saying that Co vid takes an average of ten years off people's lives and we should appreciate those 10 years and then someone else said not sure I'm sure it's not true yeah definite Witter God but someone else said the average age of people who died from Co vid is older than the average age people died it's very straight to say it's like it's a it's about the same that's a beautiful way of looking at it I mean it's it's unfortunate it sucks but it sucks if grandpa dies of Alzheimer's or emphysema or leukemia it sucks sure it sucks when someone you love dies yes but I'm I mean actually if this I think a lesson to be taken here that I think is quite important is that if if you have you know great great grandparents and that their aging grandparents really be careful with with with you know any kind of flu or cold or something that that what is not dangerous to kids or young adults but it is dangerous to to help the elderly is it basically if your kids got a runny nose they should stay away from their grandparents no matter what it is it's it's the things that are where a young immune system is has no problem and an older one has as a problem and in fact a lot of the lot of the deaths are just are literally it's tragic but they're there intra-family it's the the little little chaotic you had a you know cold or flu and you have grand aha yeah yeah there's a family gathering and they don't know that this is a big deal but it's it's just important to remember when you get old your your immune system is just not that strong and and so just be be careful with your with it with your you know loved ones over elderly and I think there is some true objective understanding of the immune system and the ways to boost that immune system and I really think that that that information should be that should be distributed in a way a non-judgmental way but like look this is this is a way that we can all like this is a scientifically proven way that we can boost our immune system and it might save your life and it might save the life of your loved ones and maybe we could teach this to our grandparents and our parents and and people that are vulnerable you know vitamin C heat shock proteins all these different variables that we know contribute to a stronger immune system yeah actually just the thing that that is stuff if you like when you as you get older it's it's hard to be yeah you put ten to put on weight you know I certainly that's happening with me you know like as the older I get like that harder to stay lean that's for sure and and so actually being being overweight is is a big deal you know just a it's a fact yeah the New York hospital said it was the number one factor for severe the co vid symptoms was obesity factor is that if that's yes exactly but it's also we live in a world where people want to be sensitive to other people's feelings so yeah absolutely don't want to bring up the fact that being fat is bad for you it's a judgment on your foods great yeah I do love food yeah and I mean I mean to be totally Frank I mean speak for myself I'd I'd rather eat tasty food and live a shorter life yeah those moments of enjoying a great meal yeah and then even talking about they're valuable they're worth something yeah it's not we don't want to eat Soylent Green and live to be 116 it really is yeah it's an art form as well it's like yeah fine food is it's it's a it's a delicious sandcastle it's temporary it doesn't last very long but there's something about it that's very pleasing yeah yeah yeah I mean I don't know what advice to give like maybe smaller have tasty food with smaller amounts of it yeah and I think regulated feeding windows really the way to go some sort of an intermittent fasting approach sure when I started doing that I I found myself to be quite a bit healthier when I've deviated from that of gained weight today what's what 16 hours 16 hours yeah so like at night or yeah yeah so I get to a certain point and then I count out I usually hit the stopwatch on my phone and then I look at 15 hours okay got an hour before I can eat yeah and so anything in between that is just water or coffee actually you know I like this may be a useful bit of advice for for people but eating before you go to bed is a real bad idea and actually negatively affects your sleep yeah and it can actually cause it heartburn that you don't even notice happening and and that subtle heartburn affects your sleep because you're horizontal and your yeah body's digesting so if you want to improve the quality of your sleep and you know you know be be healthier it's it's do not eat right before we're gonna sleep yeah it's like one of the worst things you could do I did some of the biggest mistakes I've ever made I've done that particularly after comedy shows I'm starving come home and I'll eat and then I go to bed and I just feel like [ __ ] I wake up in the middle of the night it's gonna crush your sleep it's gonna damage your pilot you know pyloric sphincter and you're in your esophagus and it's it's so in fact drinking and then going to sleep is he is that's one of the worst things you could yes so just try to avoid drinking and and eating booze yeah exactly don't you know small amounts alcohol that evidence suggests it's not it doesn't have a negative effect I put in the same categories delicious food it kind of makes things a little more fun yeah yeah I like it I mean some of the people some of the people have lived the longest you know was a woman in France who I think maybe has the record were close to it and she had a glass of wine every day every day you know yeah small small amounts of this place fine but yeah this is like a I alert this like quite late in life it's like just avoid having alcohol and avoid eating at least two or three hours before going to sleep and your quality of life well your quality of sleep will improve your general health will improve a lot this isn't it's a big deal and I think no only no way lean on do you have time to exercise a little bit do it train or anything I do although I haven't seen her for a while but yeah especially if I'm out like you know say working on starship for something stuff excess and I'm just living my life I got a little little house there in Boca Chica village you know don't have much to do so but we're like I'm working and I was just lifts and wages and yeah maybe yeah I like I don't tell you love running I don't love running but what do you like to do exercise wise sweet totally Frank I wouldn't exercise at all if I could but if I I prefer not to exercise but I'm going to exercise and you know lift lift some weights and and then kind of run on the treadmill and maybe watch a show that you know if there's a compelling show that like pulls you in right right yeah that's a good thing to do yeah watch a good movie or yeah yeah episode of black mare so I'm like that's great man they don't watch black mare before go to bed either don't watch black mirror today it's too [ __ ] accurate yeah exactly it's like wait this already happened in real life yeah they're too close it's too close well even didn't Jamie didn't you say that the guy who makes black mare it's not a good time to start season six yeah he wants to hold off because his male that is black mirror oh man it's like he's gonna have to like re reassess and and attack it from a different angle yeah you should try something that's fun to do that's not just like like learn a martial artists ins like that I did watch last one is kid play I did Taekwondo I did karate character Shanghai cool and judo I'll see you really branched out yeah so entered Brazilian jiu-jitsu briefly did you where I'm oh no [ __ ] I was gonna suggest that that's a great thing for people like that's a thing about jiu-jitsu if you look at it from the outside you think oh bunch of meatheads strangle each other sir but there's some of the smartest people I know or Jiu Jitsu fiends because they they get they first of all they get introduced to it because usually either they want exercise or learn some self-defense but then they realize that it's essentially like a language with your body like you're having an argument with someone with some sort of a physical language and it's really complex and the more access to vocabulary and the sharper your words are sure the the more you'll succeed in these ventures it's really also an accurate analogy of what you Jitsu is yeah I mean I kind of I mean part of like a lot of people for the the way early they imp the first MMA fights and hoist Gracie mmm-hmm and it was like incredible and I was like it's like you know week yeah yeah it was like you know winning is people way bigger and like a thing you know this is cool it was what martial arts were supposed to be more as we were kids yeah when you saw Bruce Lee [ __ ] up all these big giant guys like wow martial arts allow you to beat someone far bigger and stronger than you most of the time that's not real especially if they know mantra yeah yes but in the UFC when hoist Gracie off of his back was strangling Dan Severn with his legs yeah holy [ __ ] yeah this guy's being pinned by this big giant wrestler and he wraps his legs around his neck chokes him to the point the guy has to surrender yeah amazing yeah it was amazing I mean horse got beaten up pretty bad in some of those well you definitely had some rough fights but he won he won yeah he's a legend and but what it showed in I mean I'm a huge lover of jiu-jitsu what it showed is that there is a method for for defusing these situations with technique and and knowledge yeah and I think it's also a great way to exercise too because it's almost like the exercise is secondary to the learning of the thing though the exercise is like you want like and you want to develop strength and conditioning just so that you could be better at doing the thing and the analogy that I use is like if you imagine if you had a racecar and you could actually give the racecar better handling and more horsepower just from your own focus and effort sure that's really what it's like yeah totally yeah when am I gonna make my kids I should say I sent my kids to jiu-jitsu since they were like I don't know six oh really yeah oh that's awesome oh yeah it's it's a great thing to learn it really is like a good yes yeah maybe something like I mean even if you just have it's holds the pads for you you get a workout in and to be fun when am I gonna be able to buy one of them roadsters when's that happening well I can't you know say exactly when but we got to get it you know this is Kobo things kind of thrown us for a loop I'm sure so not to blame everything in a coma but it's you know it was certainly set us back on on progress or you know some number of months the I mean things we got to get get done ahead of Road sir are you know ramping up model wide production that'll be a great great car it is a great car getting the Berlin Giga factory bolts and and also building why getting expanding the Shanghai Factory which is going great and get the other the cyber trucks semi-truck roadster roasters kind of like desert so like we got to get the you know wheat and potatoes and greens and stuff you know like but roaster comes before a cyber truck I mean I think we should do cyber truck first before before before I'm mad at that some other things for us for their their you know the tri-motor a plaid powertrain we're gonna have that in Model S so that's like one of the ingredients that's needed for Road store is the plaid powertrain the more advanced bet you know factory back that kind of thing I want to ask you about this before I forgot well there's a company that's called apex is taking your Tesla's and they're giving it a wider base and wider tires and a little bit more advanced suspension sure how do you feel about that yes I'm sure you do with those people yeah I'm will forget that go ahead they're jazz and stuff up with carbon fiber and doing a bunch of interior choices you're cool with you can't [ __ ] with that you don't have time so is it good that someone comes along and has that sort of specialty operation yeah I got no problem that's what's called right it's like Jamie is it called apex yeah I got a unplugged performance s apex that's right unplugged performance yeah yeah you could for sure you know lighten the car up and improve - tire traction and have you seen that company stuff what'd they do I don't know if specifically but it's pretty dope yeah they make a pretty dope looking they take Model S and they they widen it and give it a bunch of carbon fibre right that's it right there looks pretty nice yeah it does now the the plaid version of the Model S you are you going to widen the track and doing a bunch do a bunch of different I know you guys are testing at the Nurburgring cannot talk about that well I think we got to leave that for okay you know proper us that our product unveil I understand yeah I understand last time you were here you convinced me to buy a Tesla I bought it and it's [ __ ] insane all right glad you like it very fun I don't it's not just pretty fun it's like I the way I've described it as it makes other cars seem stupid they just seemed dumb like I love dumb things I love dumb cars like I love campfires yeah I love campfires I have a 1993 Porsche that's air-cooled sure it's like it's not that fast it's really slow compared to Tesla yeah it's really quite slow of it yeah but there's something engaging about the mechanical just like the the gears are very it's very analog but it's so stupid in comparison to the Tesla like when I want to go somewhere and the model last I hit the gas and just goes wee it just it like violates time yeah yeah yeah you've tried it like ludicrous plus and yeah wait we did just a software update where it'll do it like a cheetah stance so yeah so it's it because it's got a dynamic air suspension so it lowers the back oh Jesus yeah just like a like a sprinter basic right like what do you do if your sprinter you hunker down and then so I shaved like a tenth of a second or third Stacey I mean like you know it's pretty fun it's so far I've taken so many people and I'm like take them for the holy [ __ ] moment I'm like you ready like hang on there and then I stomp on the gas I've never felt anything like it it's confusing yeah it really is the instant torque the instant torque and just the sheer acceleration is baffling it's baffling its baffled I've never felt it no it's faster than falling it's crazy it's so fast it's a roller coaster yeah and my family yells at me when I stomp the gas like I tell my kids I'm like you want to feel it you want to feel it like do it do it do it my wives like don't do it yeah and even if I just do it on the highway for a couple of seconds I think yeah it's like having our own roller coaster on tap you know it really is like a roller coaster on top yeah without the loop-de-loops but it's the the painting to your seat it seems like you're not supposed to be able to experience that from some sort of a can you know consumer vehicle that you can just a regular person could buy if you have the money it seems to too crazy and then the idea this roadster is a half of a second faster than that yeah that's madness well that rotes with the Roadster we're gonna do some things that are kind of unfair so we're gonna take some things from like you know from kind of like rocket rocket world and put them on a car so oh I've read about that explain that like what do you do well like said who can't talk now Vail right here but but it's gonna do some things that aren't fair and when we do the unveil the Roadster let me just say that anyone who's been waiting they won't be sorry it's they won't be sorry oh well anything goes zero to sixty is it one point nine is that the 60 but that's the base model that's what's the top of the food chain model faster than that yeah that seems so crazy to me now what was it like when the dude threw the steel balls at the window and they were supposed to not break and it broke well yeah I mean oh are you know you know that our demos are authentic so that was not expecting that a night and then I think I muttered under my breath you didn't get mad though know what you didn't Steve Jobs it no III definitely swore but you know I didn't think the Micra pick it up but it did and but it's so like we practiced this you know buying the scenes yeah it Tesla we don't do we don't do like tons of practice for for our demos because we work we're working on the car it's like we you know we're building new technologies and and and improving the the fundamental product so we were not spending it like you're doing like hundreds of you know practice things or anything like that we don't have time for that but the the outer just hours before the demo both fronts you know is a head of design and and I were in the studio throwing steel balls at the window or just bouncing right off I'm like okay let seems pretty good it seems like we got it okay and then I we think what happened was that when we we when when when Franz hit the the door with the sledgehammer you know sure like like this is this is like exoskeleton you know high-strength hardened steel you can literally take wind up with a sledge hammer you know full-on double handed sledgehammer and hit the door and there's not even a dent it's cool but we think that that cracked the corner of the glass at the bottom and then once you crack the corner of the glass the you're just game over so then when you threw the bowl that that's what cracked the glass so that's true it didn't shatter the whole thing like a regular window would either which would just dissolve right so in hindsight the ball should have been first sledgehammer set yeah yeah you live you learn yeah exactly listen man we've taken up a lot of your time you have a child yeah I got it recently it's amazing that you had the time to come down here and I really appreciate that I appreciate everything you do man I'm glad you're out there and I really appreciate you coming down here and sharing your perspective well I think you got a great show thanks for having me on thank you my pleasure pleasure Elon Musk ladies and gentlemen good night [Laughter]

Channel: PowerfulJRE

Views: 21,556,564

Rating: 4.8567924 out of 5

Keywords: Joe Rogan Experience, JRE, Joe, Rogan, podcast, MMA, comedy, stand, up, funny, Freak, Party, Joe Rogan, Elon Musk, JRE #1470

Id: RcYjXbSJBN8

Length: 120min 9sec (7209 seconds)

Published: Thu May 07 2020

Reddit Comments

[u/Droi]

Here are the timestamps formatted for Reddit (adapted from KidTrunks/Stefanoic), and if you'd like I've made a YouTube Chrome extension that lets you navigate the video a lot more easily (among many other things :) )

Link at the bottom!

00:00 - Elon's kid born in strange times

02:42 - AI and Neural Nets mimicking nature

05:30 - Elon's reasons for selling his houses and having no possessions

15:39 - Neuralink (human testing & how it works)

25:44 - AI symbiosis with humans and its effect on communication

36:23 - The odds of "now", being a replayed memory I.e. simulation theory

38:41 - What is consciousness

44:20 - Mind viral immunity as an effect of globalization

48:22 - AI becoming super sentient is worrying

50:57 - Why do symbiotic relations with AI seem uncomfortable and "cold"?

52:26 - When will Elon link himself to AI?

54:01 - Elon's long term picture of human-AI symbiosis

57:15 - The Coronavirus Pandemic, its effect on the world and if it is really that serious

1:03:54 - Silver linings of the covid-19 outbreak

1:07:00 - Elon's tweets about opening up the economy again, the responses he got and how to handle twitter criticism

1:13:34 - What is the best source of information online?

1:17:15 - The coronavirus made us give up our civil liberties

1:27:10 - Innacurate reporting of covid-19 cases & other causes of death

1:41:33 - Aging, putting on weight and food

1:45:54 - Elon Musk working out & Martial arts

1:51:05 - The new Tesla Roadster, other Tesla cars and the Cybertruck window breaking during the unveiling

EDIT: I actually have a test website with no download - might even work on mobile if you have baby fingers!

if you feel like trying a very rough alpha version you can just watch it here without adding anything to your browser! (might need to refresh the page like I said alpha.. :) )

https://www.jumpcut.app/demo_v.html?v=RcYjXbSJBN8

Otherwise, if you want to check the extension out to Chrome (fully released!): https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/jumpcut/jicbaeklgoninplhmenhndnidnbfaohm

And a link directly to this video with the table of contents: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcYjXbSJBN8&jumpcuts=5eb45587a6aae400023e80a5

I'd love to hear your feedback! :)

[u/1PNWnoob]

Cybertruck comes before Roadster 1:52:00

[u/PlusItVibrates]

At work and can't listen but the stock price is still up so they must not have whipped out the bong yet.

[u/the-Journalist]

unpopular opinion -- I was really excited for this interview but the first hour ended up being really boring. I absolutely love Joe Rogan and Elon Musk, probably some of my favorite people, but the interview did not live up to expectation.

[u/hoti0101]

Too bad they spend 40 minutes taking about covid and only ten taking about Tesla. SpaceX got zero love too. Hopefully there is a part 3 someday

[u/[deleted]]

Interesting discussion about being able to save brain states like a videogame in the future.

That's where all this stuff is headed.

• Save your brain state on your deathbed (or before a pre-scheduled intentional assisted suicide occurring at an advanced age).

• Clone yourself a few years ahead of your death (scheduled most likely)

• Restore the saved brain state into the clone at around 5-6 years old, and relive your "new" life as the cloned you with all your previous memories, experiences & education.

You'd literally get multiple "do-overs" maintaining the knowledge of everything you've already done, across one or more previous lifetimes (& you get to be young again).

Imagine people intentionally “killing” themselves at 40 because your body is now on the decline, just to avoid wasting time being physically old.

New mission - don't die before you save your brain state, & have a clone ready to go in the event of your scheduled or unscheduled death.

[u/courtlandre]

One of the first youtube comments: “I can feel a disturbance in the force” -TSLA stock owners

[u/ProtoplanetaryNebula]

Elon looks like he's been hitting the weights big time during lockdown.

[u/pta19]

His speech impediment is interesting to watch/listen to, you can see his brain going faster than his mouth. Then you can watch him process and get his thoughts out.