Joe Rogan Experience #1254 - Dr. Phil

in five four three two one is it hanging up on listen we're live live dr. Phil well I've someone's calling you what's going on I was trying to find no [ __ ] out of all the years you've been doing your show and all the years you begin advice how did this catch me outside girl how did this happen out of all the different shows you made a monster I know I mean it's my moment of infamy seriously this girl comes on with her mother and her mother actually brings her on a course and if she's a train wreck and we work with her and we send her to this ranch for like four months right she goes for a long time and makes a complete turnaround does a really a great job they say she's become a leader she's working with all these girls doing a great job and then she graduates and I remember this last shot when we do this this piece at the ranch she jumps up on this fence and he's smiling and everything and waving it all one night home with her mother one night and her mother's finding people that are trashing her the mother on on these social media platforms her mother tracks him down backs into who they are gets their phone numbers calls them up yelling into the phone calling them names and stuff gets the daughter involved one night crashes so they come back for a follow up like I don't know a month or two later and when they come I say okay we're gonna have them back they walk out I have the audience completely empty I have nobody there to play to I mean 250 chairs empty nobody in the house but me mother and the daughter that's a good move and they go what where is everybody else well you don't need anybody we're just here to talk and you know keep things rolling right and they were dumbstruck they there was nobody there to showboat for or play to and there's like a 15-minute interview they had nothing to say and off they go and then this phrase that got turned into a you know whatever a meme or whatever they call it yeah it just went crazy and what she was nominated for a Grammy or sad Siri I'm serious so I'm I take no credit or blame you know I just did what I could and I'm saying you're saying I wish everybody well maybe she'll turn so maybe it'll grow her up she'll turn something positive a but I hope so well that's a very good attitude very healthy attitude for you but it is when something goes viral like that something strange that for whatever reason it catches and takes off it's it doesn't make any sense it's a very weird thing it makes no sense she's on a billboard on sunset a giant billboard really huge enormous billboard it's like one of those side of the building billboards will they you know they put the graphic up it covers the entire building it makes no sense seriously seriously there's people curing cancer you can't find him with both hands exactly nobody has any idea who won the last Nobel Prize but you know you know more power to or I if if she can turn into something positive does she have talent have you ever heard any of her music now I have no idea I've only seen her on your show yeah I appreciate you bringing that up but it's just so strange that one train wreck could for whatever reason catch on and then all of a sudden it's gigantic they say that somebody signed her and paid your millions of dollars seriously yes you got like a close to a million dollars from a makeup company really yeah well okay there you go I mean if that's happening right like what would your advice be then would your advice be hey get your [ __ ] together and stop being crazy well she's making a lot of money off of being crazy and her opportunities before that were probably severely limited well they had to be and what I hope now that this even though this certainly is a quirk what I hope now is that she's surrounded by mature people with business heads on their shoulders and development people that will actually guide this in a way that it's not 15 minutes right ya never know you know that's what I hope well everybody thought the Kardashians were gonna be 15 minutes it's been 15 years yeah but there's been you know people make fun of them and there's some good things there to make fun of they do things to be made fun of but there's also a very smart business and branding that's gone into that as well 100% and you know and I was actually very impressed with her that she actually went to the White House to talk about prison reform right for people that are unjustly accused and being been in jail for too long for things that they didn't do and that's something she's actually passionate about yeah and I know Kim and she's actually a very nice girl very smart and all in you know as I say they've done some very brilliant branding and it certainly paid off it's just so fascinating when something catches like that girl what is her name the catch me a sign girl huh Danielle bra goalie or something yeah so much yeah because I didn't know where is to catch me outside girl but if she didn't say that one phrase yeah and she just said that I think to her grandmother or somebody in the audience I know it didn't even register with us at the time wow it was it wasn't a standout phrase in the interview or anything it just passed by somebody just grabbed it and then it became a meme yeah what a weird world we live in yeah no kidding what is it I mean it has to be a lot of responsibility to try to give people advice and try to straighten their life out and show them the the flaws and the errors that they're making yeah it is and you know people ask me sometimes they say you know dr. field our problems do you think problems are as simple as you make them out to be and the truth is I don't think problems are simple at all in fact I think problems are really most of the time pretty complex they're pretty layered they have a lot of different origins and they're oftentimes comorbid a lot of things exist together so I don't think problems are simple at all but two solutions are often simple don't you think I mean it's kind of like the old joke you go the doctor and you say this hurts and he says well didn't don't do that anymore yeah you know it's a lot of times it's very simple in it somebody will have a complex thing that comes from childhood or maybe it's a drug background or they've had trauma in their life but the solution is change your behavior I mean stop rewarding bad behavior choose a different path in life just behave your way to success sometimes the solutions are very simple even though the problems are very complex because at some point you have to stop focusing on why and start focusing on what instead of why it happened what am I going to do to change it so sometimes the solutions are pretty simple but implementing those solutions are often very it's often very difficult for people to change their lives change their patterns it is and in patterns is the key you know nobody does anything in pattern if they don't get a payoff and if you can identify that that's why that's why insights so important that's why I think it's the number one outcome to whether somebody's going to respond to a talking therapy for example if somebody can identify what their payoff is where they really can figure out I'm doing this repeatedly and my payoff is I don't have to work or I don't get held accountable for this or I'm escaping accountability over here or I get attention or sympathy or if they can figure out what their payoff is and they can then control that whether it's for themselves or their kids or whatever if you control the currency then you can control the behavior hmm yeah it's it just seems that people have they have this comfort in their patterns and even if their patterns are self-destructive even it's drug abuse or alcoholism or did those those the comfort in those patterns falling into those patterns it seems very compelling to a lot of people yeah and payoffs don't necessarily mean that it's a positive payoff right I mean payoff for taking heroin as you get high and so you're high for a while that's not a positive payoff but it's a payoff right and if you if you get high and so you don't get a job and you don't take care of your kids that's a payoff that you're not doing things that you need do that you should be accountable for it's a pathological payoff but it's a payoff nonetheless and so that does reward you even though it's a pathological payoff it's a pathological thing you call it a reward and if you but if you can identify that where they say look I'm I'm not doing what I need to do and I need to stop rewarding myself in that way and hold myself Canty to be there for my kid I tell my kid I'm gonna be there every day and I don't show up because I'm high on drugs then you know I need to stop doing I don't I need to not let myself get away with that and instead require myself to show up for the kid when I say I do say I will and then you see what's in the kids eyes you share the experience with them now that becomes your payoff so then you'll start showing it for your kid yeah how many people take your advice how many people just listened and try for a little bit and then bail you know it's hard to say because I think our sometimes our most productive guests are the ones that don't get it because the mail we get they'll say oh wow that guy didn't get her - that woman didn't get it but I saw myself in them and I'll never say that again mmm I saw them being such a right fighter or I saw them being so hard-headed or so oppositional and I I heard them say things I've said and they'd left and didn't get it I got it I'll never do that again so sometimes those that don't get it at all while they're there are the ones that are the best teaching tools for the millions of people that are home watching yeah that's interesting isn't it when you watch people fail and you go oh okay I see that in myself yeah I just got to not do what that guy's do and then also do you see the stubborn pigheadedness that some people have what they won't listen to advice and you could clearly see how they're ruining their lives by not being honest yeah and sometimes the story that we might have is maybe extreme where you say I don't do all six things they're doing but I do two of them and they are in sharp relief to me so I get that I'm gonna do that anymore so I mean that's where I think you get a payoff and you know people go and find these things on the internet I mean last year you know we have a channel where we put up you know different clips and divorce shows or parenting shows or whatever and we had over 2 billion views you know last year people just going and finding that information and looking at it so I know people are seeking the information out and looking at beyond the show itself you know you know they must be seeking information and we just don't have a good distribution system for mental health in America so I think they look I think they're hungry for and they look for it well there's so many people out there that are trying to do better they're trying to get their lives in order and you know shows like yours and and you know just advice shows people they're giving out inspiration and knowledge it's so it's such an important thing for people especially for people that didn't grow up with wise parents or maybe a good support system around them you know I think that's that's true and yeah I grew up with a alcoholic father and it was a pretty violent home and and he was a really bad alcohol and I know having grown up in that you wind up with what I call a damaged personal truth and you feel second-class and the problem that kids make and because I know I did it and and I and I see others do it is you compare your personal truth what you know about yourself you know how you really live and what's really going on you compare your personal truth to everybody else's social mask because you go to school and you know well I know that last night the windows got kicked out of my house I know that the utilities got turned off and I know there was a big fight in my kitchen last night and the kids sitting next to me he's got on a shirt that's all ironed and his face is all bright and clean and you know he looks like he's just got it all together and you compare yourself to that person that kid and you feel like you're second-class and the problem with that is we generate the results in life we think we deserve so if you think you're damaged do you think you're second class you will generate results that you think a second class person deserves hmm so if you don't fix your personal truth then you'll spend the rest of your life saying well you know those really good results those belong for somebody else that's not for me that's for somebody else and you'll settle for second best and you won't get what you might otherwise generate for yourself if you don't fix your personal truth and so I think a lot of people are struggling looking for a way to kind of get out of feeling not good about themselves and damage self-esteem damage self-worth and they really don't know where to go so and that's why I do the show I don't look I'm not under the misapprehension that we're doing eight minute cures if they're mean come on yeah we're not doing that but I think if you can point people in the right direction if you can raise their awareness you can get them thinking about it you and create a narrative where they at least say you know how do I feel about myself I mean is there stuff I need to resolve I mean what am I saying to myself if you can get them thinking about that then you know maybe you've done something yeah you know Tony Robbins once said once that it's incremental changes over the long haul and the way you have to look at it is if these two boats are going in a parallel direction and one of them just shifts five degrees over the course of time this boat is going to be in a far different place than the other boat that's going the same way it was always going yeah and the important thing to realize as well is the next year is going to go by whether you're doing something about your life or not I mean we're sitting here right now at the end of February and the next 10 months are gonna go by whether somebody is working to make change or whether they're not and they may think you know oh my god I'm so far overweight I'll never get it under control or I'm so behind in my bills or I'm so you know just depressed or my everything is so out of control well you know what you make those incremental changes and then you know pretty soon in December you go hey I'm way better off and I was at the end of February so you made little changes and they all added up and if you don't by the end of the year you're just getting deeper so every little bit matters yeah I tell people to write things down I said one of the best ways to get things done is to write things down write down what you're trying to get done write down what you need to get done on a long-term basis and what you need to get done on a short-term basis and write off a checklist force yourself be accountable yeah the difference between a dream and a goal is a timeline and accountability yeah accountability is gigantic you got to have somebody whether it's yourself or a friend or somebody that's gonna say look did you do what you said you were gonna do by this time and if you don't hold your feet to the fire because I mean just sitting around dreaming some day someday I'm gonna get a different job someday I'm gonna change this well someday in a day of the week you know there's Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday are you saying look on your counter some days not on there so you got to say okay I'm gonna take this small step buy here this small step by there this small step by there and then pretty soon you know we don't leap tall buildings in a single bound we take it a floor at a time that man although all the years you've been doing your show you've developed a real community right I mean you you you really have made an impact if you stop and think about all the people that your shows touched and all the people that have listened to your advice and all the people that have taken that advice and and made those little incremental changes in their lives and set those goals and held themselves accountable that's a pretty significant thing well I hope so I mean I I think I know that there's a stigma attached to mental illness and that really bothers me there should not be I mean having depression or anxiety or whatever to me should have no more stigma than having a knee injury or kidney infection or diabetes but there is yeah a stigma attached to it and I've tried to talk about this in a way where it's okay to talk about it and not be ashamed of it it's it's okay if you've got anxiety you got PTSD whatever it's okay let's talk about it let's get help for it get it behind you and move on I mean it's not it's not something that you should be ashamed of what do you when you're talking to someone that maybe has depression do you try to get them to exercise first do you try to get them to visit a psychiatrist immediately and get on medication like do you take it on a case-by-case basis well I do but you have to approach it everybody has a philosophy about it and I'm not saying that mind's any better than anybody else's but I do have a philosophy about it and I'm very slow to medication I mean I think you know I think you use medication for biochemical replacement I mean if for some reason your body is not making enough of something it needs then maybe you support it short-term biochemically but you know I I look at depression I think there's a lot of ways you can break it up but I look at it like is it exogenous depression or endogenous depression I mean is it coming from the inside out or the outside in is it because you're reacting to something I see a lot of depressed people that in a sense it makes sense right I mean you look at their life and you say well if you're not down about this you should be I mean you've lost your job you've gotten a divorce your health is in the [ __ ] you're I mean you should be down about this it's external things so you don't need a pill I mean put somebody in a chemical straightjacket because their life's falling apart what the hell is that gonna do yeah but that's just putting goggles on them where they can't see it I would much rather get them to behave their way to success and say what are you reacting to that you're depressed about let's put that on a to-do list and start like you said write it down and start crossing those things off let's figure what's an action plan to change this action plan to change the next thing actually and then when you start doing that then you generally see their mood lifts a lot of people that are depressed or just realistically reacting to a crummy circumstance in their life it's not necessarily a mental illness it's just a realistic reaction to a bad spot in their life yeah that's such a way good way of putting it to that is you weren't in a bad state looking at this it might be something wrong with you yeah you're in denial yeah I mean if if you've gotten a divorce lost your job your health in bad shape your kids are alienated from you and you're saying I'm fine then you're not in touch with reality right you should be bothered by that and and I think to give somebody a pill to mask your feelings about that just keeps you off task I don't your pains a good motivator you know I grew up in like Texas and Oklahoma and I don't know you've ever done this but we were I used to spend my summers in the thriving metropolis of Mundi Texas you ever heard of Monday Texas now it's mu in its a you not an O em you nday it's got like 2,000 people in it but in the summers it would get hot in Mundi Texas no when I say hot I mean you look out in the backyard and your dog burst into flames that's what I'm talking about so we would be going to the swimming pool or something barefooted and you get halfway across an asphalt road and you look down and you're I mean like holy [ __ ] mean your feet are just on fire so what are you gonna do I mean that is painful you're gonna do one of two things you're either going to make a u-turn and get your ass back over to the side of the road and get in the grass or you're gonna run to the other side and get off the road and get in the grass but you're not going to stand there in the middle of the road and melt yourself down to the knees pain is a motivator pain is not necessarily always bad if you're in pain it's gonna motivate you to move to change something and to match that with drugs to dull that pain with drugs it's not necessarily a good thing that is wise wise advice and I wish more people thought that were particularly more doctors you know I have so many friends that have gone to a doctor because I'm not feeling so good and they're almost immediately wanting to throw them on something yeah like not smart all the years you've been doing this have you noticed like was depression as prevalent like the term depression or what it doesn't I mean I don't really remember it being a thing when I was a kid that was discussed the way it's discussed now now it's discussed the way people discuss all sorts of other ailments is it just an awareness thing or is it just people are thinking about it now in different terms well I think it's part of the narrative now and I think with social media with the internet not just social media but with the Internet I think there's just a lot more it's a lot more in the nomenclature and there's a lot more awareness about it but I think it was just as prevalent in the 50s and 60s as it was now but in the 50s and 60s there wasn't a psychologist on every corner right and there is now yeah and there wasn't sub doctoral licensing then I mean you what does that mean well back then the you had to have a PhD or an MD as a psychiatrist to see patients now they have marriage and family therapists they have licensed social workers they have different levels where you can do independent practice so that's broadened the number of people that can provide services and some people think that's a good thing some people think it's not I generally think it's a it's a good thing because I think 58% of our rural markets today have no psychiatrists available and something like 50 or roughly have no mental health professional available at all none so there's just nobody available to help people in in the outlying areas so I think the more people you can get into the profession so long as there's a degree of competency is better but you know I think it's always been prevalent I just think people didn't talk about it very much it's just something they swallowed or they took to church or ya know when you see you know these all these folks that are on medication today I mean how many of these people do you think legitimately should be on medication I mean is it something you can assess you know I I can't answer that in terms I mean I'm sure there's research of people how many people are on medication but in my personal experience most of the people that I see on medications in my opinion don't need most of the medications they're on now and that's just anecdotal it's my opinion you asked me to handle your research survey or study to support that I can't hand it to you or I can't point you to one I just tell you after 45 years in this experience I see people that are on medication they've usually seen someone for six or eight minutes and said you know I'm really feeling kind of down or blue yep here's some Prozac here's this here's that they give it to them and they don't even really ask why and they just give it to them because medicine has become a high-volume business and that's not necessarily the doctors fault I mean the way that it's now funded and Medicare and Medicaid you got to turn them and burn them and yeah or you can't stay in business and so it's a high-volume business and so they throw pills at them because they don't have an hour to sit down or don't take an hour to sit down and talk about say well let's find out what's going on is there a reason like I said if this guy's got five parts of his life that have gone down or a woman it's got you know three or four areas of her life that have really gone down in in quality then they should be having poor mood so why mask that let's come up with an action plan and change it so most of the people I see on medication not all but most of the people I see are on too many medications in too high a dose or either don't need it at all and I'm really bothered by polypharmacy that's where I really get frustrated yeah this is I think what you're saying is a very common-sense approach but it's not the norm today no it seems like more people are treating this you know air quotes depression issue as if it's a medical disorder like like diabetes or something when you need medication yeah and look for a lot of people it works I mean yeah you give people a mood elevator and they say hey I feel better and then maybe they change their life maybe they move their life into a more positive direction they can wean themselves off of it because one of the things about depression for example you're using as an example is you get what's referred to as psychomotor retardation there's a there's a lessening in activity level and I think old sayings get to be old sayings because they're profound like you're not going to get a hit if you're not swinging mm-hmm well if you're depressed and so you think slower less actively you behave less actively your chance of getting rewarded goes down right you don't get out there and you don't mix it up socially as much you don't apply for jobs as much you're not as productive on your job as much so you're less likely to get strokes less likely to get rewarded well maybe you go take a pill and it lifts your mood up so you get more active and so now you can start getting Pat's on the back you start getting people to engage with you more so that lifts your mood and that takes care of it so you took the medication short term you're lifted back up and you're okay short term it can be an alternative but I've seen people on everything from opioids to mood elevators for years and that's where you lose me yes don't get it yeah I know people that have been on things since they were 5 years old yeah and they're in their 40s yeah and then you have wastebasket diagnosis like a DD and ADHD where you know what used to be a spoiled brat is now a DD or ADHD right oh they start prescribing these ritalin neocortical stimulants like ritalin and if you give a kid that does not need a neocortical stimulant a stimulant you're really going to throw them off the charts now because you're you've got a normally active brain that you're now making hyperactive so you're creating a problem that didn't exist before you gave him the medication because you didn't do the proper diagnosis yeah I had my old neighbor had a situation like that they had a kid and the kid was just had a lot of energy and they weren't paying attention to him and so they started medicating them it's insanely common yeah and you you cannot chemically babysit your children and who knows where these kids are gonna be 20 30 years from now I mean we're just looking at you this rash of people being treated these ailments air quotes and then we're not seeing how this all turns out in the long run and how much damage we're doing these people know and in fairness on the other end of the continuum I have seen some people that are clearly psychotic schizophrenic delusional that without medication are absolutely impossible to manage but if you put them on antipsychotics and so you can lower their delusional behavior their hallucinatory behavior so you can now have a meaningful conversation with them so they can respond to talking therapies it makes all the difference in the world and without those antipsychotics you would be little lost yeah without them so there are some medications for some disorders that are absolute miracles that without them you wouldn't be able to do the work you need to do to get the person back where they need to be yeah unquestionably I mean there's definitely a lot of great pharmaceutical drugs that help a lot of people do you get pushback from a lot of these positions from the established medical community you know sometimes but you know mostly when you talk to people about it thoughtfully they agree with with what I'm saying I mean most people will agree that you need to be thoughtful about prescribing medications and that medications are too readily administered I mean that's certainly what we've seen in the opioid epidemic right now opioids are so readily prescribed right now that there are enough opioid prescriptions for every man woman and child in America to have their own bottle and if you renew that prescription one time one time if you are taking those opioids at the seven day mark your chance of being addicted at one year is one in 12 and if you renew it at if you're still taking them at 30 days your likelihood of being addicted is 1 in 3 Wow and these things are getting written with way too high a pill count and it's and so the addictions we're seeing a whole different kind of addiction now coming out of the suburbs and they take him for a while and they're very expensive and after they take him for a while heroines cheaper so they dumped the opioids and start taking the heroin so you're saying soccer-mom heroin addicts that you weren't seeing 10 years ago because they get started on prescription opioids and then they can't afford them or finally the doctor cuts them off but they're addicted and so they start taking heroin because it's cheaper no this is obviously a very disturbing pattern but where do you see is going like when you look at the future and it looks bleak in that regard I mean I've known several people that have had real problems with pills you know the problem that that I think people have is they think because a doctor gave me this because it's on a projection pad that this is safe and your body doesn't know whether you got that in the back alley or you got it from a doctor it still has the same addictive quality and I think it is at an epidemic level and I've testified before Congress about this and I think there are several levels of accountability at the manufacturing level and at the prescription level and at the educational level so people understand I think everybody has to take part of it and I'm doing everything I can to raise the awareness about it as well when you testified before Congress what was the reaction they're very much aware that this has become a serious serious problem because the the cost as as you see the lost labor in the workforce is in the billions of dollars you see the the demands on the healthcare system that this is creating young mothers with with children and babies born addicted to these opioids I mean the numbers are just going through the roof so I mean it's putting a strain financially on the healthcare system that it just can't stand so you start costing money and it starts getting politicians attention so they start saying okay now we got to start doing something so they get it they get that there's a problem what could they do though once there seems like once that genies out of the bottle well clearly you've got to start educating people and the manufacturers have to be required to start labeling this much more clearly physicians have to be much more conservative in prescribing you know I just had this shoulder surgery and I took like one one opioid one pill they gave me in the hospital and after that you can manage it with like Tylenol or something because the surgeons now are so good with the arthroscopic surgeries and stuff it's so it's so much less of an insult to the body that was ice and tylenol stuff you can manage it if you just kind of focus on it a little bit and and I'm not saying if you've had surgery and you're having organic pain for God's sakes get ahead of the pain and stay ahead but when you as soon as you can get off of it get off of it and understand what's happening yeah there's no sense being like macho we don't need a leather strap between your teeth and you'll have some surgery I mean should if it hurts take the pill get past it but realize the minute you can get away from that you need to get away from it but you know they don't need to give you a 30-day supply right they need to give you three or four days and then you got to go see your doctor again and if it's still a problem discuss it I mean that's what that's what I think needs to happen is just be a lot more conservative about what your giving is the problem is these pharmaceutical companies make so much money yes you don't want to they don't want to back off that they got private jets and yachts to pay for yeah and they're starting to shut down some of these they had some of these pill clinics in pain clinics in Florida mm-hmm where you could go in without an x-ray without an MRI and just say you had back pain and there was a doctor there that would give you a 9 account prescription on the spot no questions asked 90 mm-hmm and you're out the door and you go down straight to the next one yeah because there was no database no database and that doctor might be a foreign doctor that flew in from offshore wrote all the prescriptions during the day flew off again at night and now they're shutting that stuff down so that the hammer is coming down well one can only hope when you've been doing your show as long as you've been doing it and I'm sure you you've made it a ton of loot what makes you want to do a podcast why doing that well my interest has been you know it's saying there are a lot of people getting their information on the Internet by getting clips of the show and that sort of thing and it's clear to me that is the population is changing you know I'm an old guy but younger people are getting their information in different ways you know going to the Internet and the digital menu has got to be readily available and you can reach a lot of people that way that you wouldn't reach the other way there's a whole population that's not going to watch broadcast television during the day yeah and there's a whole population that's watching broadcast television earing today that maybe isn't on in the digital space and if I can get a crossover between the two and you can get a bigger audience to spread your message then you know that's what you're doing my goal is to spread the message and get what I think is important to say out there so I mean I'll shout it from the rooftops if that's what I can if I think that's effective I want to do anything that's scalable to get the message out there and and to me I'm doing I'm doing some different things in the podcast and I'm doing on the show on the show I've got a fact pattern in front of me I've got a story I got a family got an individual that's got a specific fact pair and I'm dealing with that fact pattern in the podcast I'm not solving a problem I don't have somebody there that has a problem for me to solve I'm just talking to people that I find interesting and I'm able to talk to them about whatever I want to talk to them about and discuss things like you and I are talking about right now I think this is I think what we've been talking about is an important discussion and I welcome the opportunity to have that discussion and I don't have time to do that when I'm talking about somebody who's sitting there saying you know I I think my kid is on the precipice of overdosing or is really in trouble and I got to focus on that I don't have time to pontificate about such things as the opioid epidemic or the philosophy of pills versus therapy and things of that nature because I have to give all my attention to the story in front of me in a podcast environment like we're doing now I can talk about things that I think people need to hear I think it's if they don't they don't have to listen but if they if they're interested it's there so I like it being more freeform and me being able to talk about things I've been talking about what makes people a champion like I talked to Tony Romo right after the Super Bowl about you know you came from Eastern Illinois University it's like a what nine students or something he's a little bitty University and he turns out to be quarterback of America's team for 14 years set all kinds of records and then goes to the booth and becomes a number one color analyst in television I mean champion champion champion you why you know what is it what do you attribute that to I like asking those questions yeah hearing people talk what do you say to young people about that what made you a champion are you gonna let your kids play football with all the CTE and stuff what do you say I'm out I like having those kind of conversation did the same thing with Shaq and Charles Barkley and different people what did he say about what makes you a champion you know for him he said that he has this he says he didn't he wasn't the kind of Swagger sort of person that you know came in cocky like he was gonna own the field and own the game but inside he said he had this absolute Drive that if he didn't win he couldn't live with it it's like if somebody thought like he played the game somebody beat them beat him that just the idea that that person went home thinking that they were better than him that they could beat him that he just couldn't eat sleep think until he got back and owned it again and got back to it he said he's just drive to win and so he would mean he said he would be out at one o'clock in the morning in the dome throw in a pass that that route got intercepted he got jumped on that route and you'd be trying to figure out why on Thursday in practice he saw what he needed to see why didn't he see it on Sunday and he would analyze and analyze and analyze until he could get there until he could do it until he could win it he just had this drive to win that super unhealthy obsession they all share that Michael Jordan had that I mean we've talked about that several times on the podcast so many people that are extreme winners they're psychotic in their obsession with winning yeah that's all they want to do and if they lose they they they it's almost insufferable they almost can't deal with it yeah and I I don't know if that's necessarily a bad thing but the diff prints between winners and losers his winners do things losers do not want to do yeah they they will get up in the middle of the night they will do this they will do that they feel it more they just do things losers don't want to do they'll pay a price losers just don't want to pay yeah and loser says it's not worth it and every winter has been a loser oh that's what made him a winner yeah if all you ever do if it's a if you go through life is in a success only journey god how boring would that be I mean you think it would be great but I keep not ice cream every meal about the fourth meal you're gonna be thinking God let's kill something and eat it well it's like what were you talking about about depression about that bad feelings will motivate you to change if you're in a bad feeling if you're if you're in a bad state in your life that pain is an amazing motivator and even though it feels terrible at the time it can propel you to a new and better life because you don't ever want experience that again and make you grow and be a better person yeah and you got to decide what's your currency I mean because you say you know you've done your show a long time and probably don't need the money but there are different kinds of currency right I mean you don't always work for one kind of currency I mean every year when we wrap our season I kind of take a month and let everybody go unwrap you know just kind of unwind and relax and kick back and do whatever they want to do and then we start meeting and focusing on okay how can we reinvent ourselves for next season how can we tell our stories better how can we broaden our horizons do things different so that we raise our game because we're kind of competing with ourselves there's you know we're kind of a category by ourselves we're the only one that does what we do and we've been number one for a long time because I got a really hard-working team but we're in us nobody else tries to do what we do so we're kind of competing with ourselves and so we work real hard to figure out how can we have a bigger impact how can we tell this more effectively what techniques can we come up with that make this even more powerful more impactful than what it is and that's what you know that's what really gets me moving well it's very telling it's mean that's why I would imagine you move towards doing a podcast where it's less restrictive and more open-ended and you can kind of do whatever you want but it's that's pretty cool that all these years of doing that and giving out advice you still find this this passion to make it better and to do it from a different angle yeah and you know I'm as excited about we're just about to wrap you know our 17th season 17 seasons and that's a lot how many episodes you done coming up on three thousand and I did Oprah for five years before cool and so that's that's 22 years and then your watch and then I just renewed for five years moved out to 2023 taped before you sign that like what am i well just go fishing you know Robert and I thought about it but well what am I gonna do I mean I don't but you enjoy it obvious I do yeah I enjoy it you could tell and you know I've always told my team the thing that we don't want I don't want to get bored right and if it gets formulaic for me it'll be formulaic for the viewer and I don't want that to happen and you know we do a lot of news stories and stuff and that keeps it fresh because you don't know what's going to break in the news tomorrow right and so we do most of the really big news stories and we don't break the news stories we go behind the headline talk about here's what really happened you as Paul Harvey said here's the rest of the story yeah just what you read in the headline now here's here's the rest of the story and I really like doing that I really like getting into that well and when you're doing this on your podcast one of the beautiful things about that is that you know you can explore these ideas without commercial breaks you don't have to have anybody telling you what to do you could just look whatever is interesting to you is that how you pick the subjects and the people that you're talking to yeah like this week I had on Pam Myers who wrote live spotting I've spent a lot of money is that a book on liars my spotting yeah and I've spent a lot of my career on deception detection because I spent a lot of time in the litigation arena own interrogation techniques that's how you met overwrite yeah yeah it was when she was doing that uh the the beef industry was suing her yeah the Mad Cow case in Amarillo yeah yeah she got sued for a couple of billion dollars and I've represented her in that case and that's that's how we met and I mean I had Pam on and we've both worked a lot in deception detection and interrogation techniques and stuff and so just and it came right at a time when you know Jesse Smollett is in the news about is he telling the truth was he not telling the truth and then here we have this conversation what did you think immediately when you heard that story I was very suspicious when I heard this yeah Jaime and I we shut that once the cameras are off like he's off [ __ ] that guy that is real that nobody it was just too much like a movie yeah it was a bad movie yeah I mean it's nine below zero and two people are lying in wait just in hopes that he might come by 2:00 a.m. yeah I mean so strange you know it was suspicious and you know he's entitled to due process and he's gonna get it yeah he's gonna get it now he's saying he has some untreated drug problem so he's trying to carve out some path to explain his bizarre behavior but there are very there are very specific live behaviors that people can't really control like what kind of stuff well for example when when people are really desperately trying to convince you they're telling the truth they'll do a lot of times what are called convincing statements rather than just telling you what they did or didn't do they'll do convincing statements like you know me I like somebody saying who somebody stole the petty cash in the office I think you know me I give more money I donate more money than was stolen yummy you guys know me I mean I was Employee of the week class you know there's convincing you there's this nice guy and that's not what someone does if they're wrongly accused no what did someone do if they're wrongly accused if they're wrongly accused they'll look you straight up in the eye and tell you I didn't do it and if you ask them what do you think should happen to somebody that did an innocent person will say I think they should be found I think it should be held fully accountable to the extent of the law somebody that's guilty will say well you know I don't know I mean people make mistakes you got to give a guy a second chance do you worry that in coaching that you're essentially coaching Liars by telling people this kind of stuff and someone who does steal the money you know would be able to kind of like hey it's not for amateurs and when you there are some things that you can tell people to watch for but one of the things you do if there's somebody that you suspect is you increase their cognitive load during the interrogation and there's no way you can prepare for that oh how do you do that well you plan a mind virus for example Who am I in virus I like it yeah this is a Perry Mason type [ __ ] yeah like what'd he do like if let's pretend some money's missing yeah and I said to you is there any reason somebody would have told me that they saw you near that cash box about the time it went missing dump dump town okay now people talk at 125 words a minute they think at 12 to 14 hundred words a minute now if it takes you five five seconds to tell me no you took the money who because if you were nervous right now if you didn't take it you know you didn't take it you don't need to run scenarios through your head to think who could have seen me you know I was I didn't see anybody know what he could have seen me what do you know but if you didn't do it it doesn't take you one millisecond to say absolutely not have you ever been wrong before where you see someone on television you go I think that guy's guilty and they're innocent or vice versa oh sure because if if you really want to know for sure if somebody is guilty or innocent you need to invest a lot of time you need to get a baseline on what they normally look like talk like feel like and then bait and in knowing that baseline you didn't need to compare how they're behaving on TV so just walking by the screen and seeing it you might see things that would ordinarily belie behavior so it could just be part of their personality so if you're going to really make a judgement you got to put a lot of time in and figure it out and what you should do before you decide you're gonna be a human lie detector is do your homework and you know try to figure it out objectively before you figure it out behaviorally I mean you ought to do your investigation find out if somebody took the money and you know find out where they were and you know look for fingerprints and do this and do that I mean you ought to really objectively figure it out before you rely on these things and so unless you get a baseline and get one-on-one with them and spend a lot of time then you can't be you you can't be really certain that you know whether they're telling the truth or whether it would be fun if it was that easy and that some people are pretty obvious yeah I heard a cop once say that when people are guilty they tend to plead and cry and then when they're not guilty they tend to get angry when they're accused people that are wrongly accused are generally irate from the beginning till the end I mean the every case is different but if you're wrongly accused that person is going to be pissed off from the minute you accuse them till the end because it's like I'm their self righteous like I didn't do this and you're saying I did and screw you yeah and they don't take a step back and when you you see people they do these convincing statements and they're pleading for you to believe them and then and and anytime somebody says now in all honesty usually the next thing out of their mouths a lie like no no Joe honestly as opposed to everything else you've been telling me I mean why are we we're bracketing this one out is all right or if they invoke the deity oh I swear as my good god yeah God as my witness mmm and you know I don't know whether I have not done what I said you need to do with Jesse Smollett but I do know when he went to the set at Fox he said you all know me I swear to God I didn't do this mmm and I mean they were like three or four those kind of statements in like two or three sentences there well my favorite one was on stage who called himself the gay to park that's enough for me that's a little narcissistic it's a strange thing though like there was another one today a guy lit his house on fire and think in Chicago and said he's a gay fella said it was a hate crime and they caught him it's a lot of that going on you know a lot of fake crime very strange the the then then sometimes people accuse people of something and someone will say why would why would someone make something why would someone turn themselves into a victim what there's a lot of clout and being a victim especially today there's a lotta you get a lot of attention a lot of love I think there's a lot of false accusations and false attacks and it's a lot of real ones but man when the false ones combo it just does a giant disservice to everybody well there's a fair amount of research as to why people do these hoaxes and particularly hate crime hoaxes and one of the primary motivations of course its sympathy and attention and all that but one of the interesting reasons that I've read in research is that they really feel like it's emblematic of how the system treats them overall this is just a dramatic example of it they feel like I'm treated this way anyhow so they're just I'm discriminated against I suffer bias I'm put down this is just a focused example of that so I'm really not lying I'm just role-playing how I'm overall treated oh wow so they justify it in their mind if they're just gonna bring all this treatment into one example to bring it into focus and so while it's a phony deal it really is truthful representation of what their life is really like they justify it in that way oh how weird you know that's yeah that's a deep psychological [ __ ] out there no that's that's stretching that's a weird one we like when you've write it out like that put it in your mind that way yeah wow it's strange too because it gives people this this is this giant public show to watch now you know and I hate that family what a talented young man I mean isn't he times that I've seen I don't watch that show a lot but the times I've seen him on there singing and assuming it is his voice and he's singing extremely talented young me I find a lot of talented people are [ __ ] crazy well you know somebody said that somebody said that the really talented singers and actors were the weird kids from high school that we're in drama and all sure though yeah various levels are crazy obviously not all deceptive but you know some of the most brilliant actors are just completely out of their mind and that's one of the reasons why they're so good at acting is because they can look my frame wet my friend Wayne Federman had a bit they did about it on stage and he's like guess what it's not [ __ ] normal to be able to just cry yeah he goes you could just cry and pretend something's wrong and cry is that's crazy these are crazy people yeah and and you really can't go to a certain place you've you don't have a little of that in you yeah my dad used to always say when he's working with patients you would say there's something about that old boy I can't stand about me you say you can't see it in them if you don't have a little of it in you yeah oh there's a hundred percent truth than that that is the thing that drives me the craziest about weak people I'm so terrified of seeing weakness and and and just just just just being pathetic I'm so terrified to seeing that in myself I see it in other people it's just it smells I smelled like a drug sniffing dog like oh there it is yeah you smell desperation yes what makes you do this why are you doing a podcast I have always been a blabbermouth I can never shut the [ __ ] up I love talk and and I've always been fascinated by human beings and their lives and just talking to people and finding out like the guy before was this guy Yohan Grillo who's a narcotics journalist he's a narco journalist in Mexico I mean I couldn't wait to talk to that guy oh yeah let me just what a life he's been living in Mexico for 18 years is from England I'm I still alive don't alas that's something right there you and you know he's telling me about friends that have been killed and you know he's been in some sticky situations a few times and you know I'm just fascinated by pip by people and what they like to do you know I'm fascinated by athletes I'm fascinated by physicists I just always been very very curious and I've always recognized that everyone thinks about things differently and that I could take a little bit of something from everybody whether it's from a book or it's from have a conversation with someone I can gain a little bit of a little bit of experience a little bit of knowledge a little bit of insight yeah you're naturally very curious because I listened to you interviews and you're naturally very curious you don't struggle for the next question because you really want to know something that makes it much easier there's very lucky that I found this yeah very just stumbled into doing this kind of [ __ ] no it wasn't this way in the beginning in the beginning it was just horse [ __ ] with friends and it's slowly but surely as the pot the podcast became popular I was like I wonder if that guy would talk to me and then I would get people on and then it became more of these long-form interesting conversations yeah yeah and if you're curious about human functioning at all human nature at all there's an endless menu of things you can talk about I don't care who it is you could you could pull somebody out of a car on the street yeah and if you're curious you can talk to them because everybody has a different take in life everybody has a different walk yeah absolutely and what you're talking about you're interviewing all these athletes you know I think people tend to write off athletic pursuits as being entirely physical and they are not I mean I think this is an easy way for people to look at it that don't engage or they've never really thought about playing anything at a very high level that it requires some intense thinking it might not require mathematics or a large vocabulary but understanding what's required understanding when and how to execute understanding how to keep your [ __ ] together under pressure those are all intensely intellectual aspects of any really high end athletic pursuit and there's a different breed of cat that wants the ball with - buzzer yes and it's not just a showboat there's a different breed of cat that once that ball at that point yeah and it's not always who you think but it takes a special kind of person that wants that pressure yeah that knows they can handle it better than anybody else yeah you know and it's a lot of times it's people that are entirely confident that they've done the work you know there's a haunting thing that happens with athletes where you're not sure if you did enough and in fighters it's a very dangerous inclination because it leads you to over train and you have to be very careful about that because with a fighter you only can learn so much during your training camp like say once you get into training camp you got eight weeks depending on who you are some guys like to do a little longer but the average is maybe eight twelve weeks is a long camp you already have to know how to fight by the time you get to camp so what you're really doing is just kind of working on specific movements where you're dealing with one kind of fighter and then getting your body in shape getting your body condition - getting your mind ready preparing everything cutting your bodyweight down getting so you can weigh in and have a good amount of just you got enough vitality can't drain yourself so this is complicated dance that goes on and that haunting thing of did I do enough can cause fighters to screw themselves over by overtraining yeah so you have to have enough confidence to know that you've done enough as well as enough you have to know you've done enough but no you haven't done too much this is really strange dance you know and this this weekend is a giant UFC big UFC two big title fights between four of the very best fighters in the world and I mean that is one of the most interesting aspects of the fight game to me is one watching these guys stare each other down at the weigh-in where they get a look at each other than they know 24 hours from now they're going to war and just see like is there just us mellowed out is there anything is there anything in there you know and just knowing that this is probably one of the most difficult things in all of athletics and that these guys are going there they're gonna ply their trade and one of the most complicated things it's a battle of physical mental of mindset of will of conditioning and discipline and then it's also there's a lot of random [ __ ] that happens do you think a fight can change at a weigh-in when people are looking at yes yes you think it yeah it can change it can shift right then it can't change forever but like you could look at John Jones sideways upside down you could stick you to it ain't gonna affect [ __ ] there's some guys that are just locked down and bulletproof John Jones is bulletproof there's certain guys that was just bulletproof they just look at you and like they know what to do there's a reason why he's undefeated you know he's just he knows how to do it but then there's other guys that like that maybe like maybe it's 80/20 maybe and then the the staredown you look at the guy and you're looking at my god damn and I'm fighting Yoel Romero how the [ __ ] did this happen and then you see him drop down to 75 maybe 73 percent confidence 72 70 [ __ ] they look at his traps he's got a neck that starts at the top of his head you like off [ __ ] you know there's certain guys they're just they're intimidating at weigh-ins - yeah yeah it can change a little bit but not for everybody there's certain guys that just it doesn't matter you can't get in there there's certain champions like real champions like Mighty Mouse Johnson there's a bunch of guys like that that are just champions you look at them it doesn't matter they know what they're doing they've done the work they're the best in the business like you can mean mug them and get aggressive they might smile at you then way this is cute try to make me nervous hilarious see you tomorrow yeah so is that because they know who they are and it doesn't matter who this is or is it that they just don't they don't believe in this guy it's they know who they are I think and they have reached a level of confidence when you get to a certain level of success like you know John Jones has one loss in his records by disqualification a fight that he was destroying the guy and he was hitting the guy with it's a really dumb rule but when you throw elbows you're not allowed to throw a 12 to 6 elbow meaning coming straight down the only reason that exists is because when mixed martial arts is first being was first being sanctioned by athletic commissions the the people that were in the Athletic Commission had some nervous fears of they had seen like those late-night TV shows or karate guys are breaking bricks with their elbow driving straight down they thought they could kill somebody if they did that so let's not have we'll eliminate that strike it's a dumb move and John Jones hit this guy with a couple 12 to 6 elbows and he was disqualified in a fight he was just just destroying the guy so for a guy like that who has this staggering resume of achievement he's widely considered to be the greatest light heavyweight champion of all time if not he's definitely in the running of the greatest fighter ever of all time for a guy like that he's not he's he's confident to the point of you know he's he's he's not trying to just beat this guy although he's going to beat this guy he's trying to go down in history as one of the Great's of all time what the greatest of all time so for a guy like that it doesn't matter what you do he's not that he's a Michael Jordan type character you know there's a few of those guys out there this these LeBron James is these Larry Bird's they exist in all sports they they have this mindset a champion mindset does he find angry or does he fight business like business like he's very businesslike yeah he's very businesslike he knows what he's doing the best guys fight business like there's some guys that fight with emotion and they're still really good but like Fedor Emelianenko his famous Russian guy he would he would have a look on his face that he was cashing a check and he was smashing a guy's eye orbit in you know he was just uh you know he was the highest level of that like that robotic businesslike approach to fighting and then after he'd knocked unconscious he'd help you get back up yeah it was over once he shut it off it was over there's no no sign he thought emotions were weak like showing emotions in a fight showing anger all that was weak yeah I think there's a huge psychological component to it I mean I agree completely giant gigantic I think if you I think if you go in with doubt man I think that's terrible terrible yeah thank you just now you're fighting yourself and them to remember the Mike Tyson fights when he was in his probably you know remember looking those guys faces oh yeah they're staring across the ring and I'm like oh Jesus what did I sign up for yeah I don't know what the money was here but it wasn't worth it this seemed like a good idea at the time was a life-changing life defining moment when when you were staring across the ring at Iron Mike and it was like 1989 who's that top of the world yeah and and he and you knew he's gonna come over there and it's you like never been here before yeah guns blazing yeah and he dude yeah and he did yeah meanwhile you meet him now he's like the nicest guy on the planet Earth yeah couldn't be a sweeter guy yeah I talked to me today he's got a daughter that's apparently a pretty good tennis player really and he's really behind her now and focused on that that was him back then because when he came out of jail he's fighting Peter McNeeley yeah just letting him know it's comin baby yeah but you know he was never he was never as formidable after jail as he was before he went ya know well there's a ton of factors his training was never the same you know he didn't he lost that connection with cus D'Amato you know he had custom auto with training him when he was at his very best and then Kevin Rooney who worked with customer and Mike trained him after that and then they eventually parted ways and that was before the Buster Douglas fight remember he had guys in his corner didn't even have an ends well I mean his eye was swelling up and they didn't even have ice to put on it yeah yeah there was a lot of factors but also you know when I talked to Mike on the podcast one of the things was and this was just him sort of coming with to grips with the fact that he never really had a childhood his childhood was from the time he was 12 years old custom model took him in was hypnotizing him and teaching him how to fight teach amount of fighting and hypnotizing him to be a machine his going you know he was literally saying to him you don't exist the task exists the job at hand exists and and you're gonna go out there and you're going to get the job done and he was telling this to a thirteen-year-old that never experienced love he just was abandoned and homeless and and this is the only way he ever got any sort of positive reinforcement in his life is by destroying people yeah yeah and that's sad but you know now he seems to really be connected to his daughter I mean you see a you see and hear a softness in his voice he really is connected yeah he learned you know I mean it's easy to try to look at someone like who they were you know 20 years ago it's it's easy to do that it's easy just oh he's that guy but people evolve and they grow and he's a great example of that he's a very different person you know he doesn't even work out because he's worried about his ego like he he doesn't hit the bag or do anything like that it's occasionally get on the treadmill and work out a little bit on a treadmill just get a little exercise in he's worried about feeding his ego was worried about like looking at himself in the mirror and bringing that old monster back again really yeah that's what he said oh yeah I think you'd be afraid of not being able to get back to the level he was I don't think he's afraid of that I don't think he wants to be that guy yeah he says he doesn't like that guy which is crazy because that guy's who made him rich and famous and everybody loves him because he was that guy but who he is now is a completely different person just a sweetheart a real sweetheart yeah he seems like it I mean you'd never think to talk to him if you didn't know his history you'd never guess that was that guy yeah no you'd never would yeah I think the psychological aspect of fighting is one of the more intriguing parts of it to me and you know for me it's like probably one of the reasons why I got interested in psyche in the first place and the way people think about things and and weakness like real weakness weakness weakness can get exposed in a variety of different ways but in competition is when you really see it yeah I'm one of the I have this theory you know and we see it in sports and I saw it when I talked to him it he's been a friend of mine for a long time and I was talking to him about his psychology as he goes into the football he says he plays a movie in his mind of the entire game before he plays it because you know in a football game you're gonna have 11 or 12 possessions during the game you just throw out the football game you can get that ball 11 or 12 times and you'd say and I'm gonna carry that ball three or four times per possession and he knows which plays he's gonna run he would run him through his head he would see it he would know who was gonna be there to tackle him he was you know he'd run everything through his head and he's one of those guys that wants the ball when the clocks running in yeah but I have this theory that situations do not make heroes situations expose heroes hmm and I saw that in Katrina the hurricane that so devastated that that one neighborhood what Ward was it the ninth war and I forget which Ward it was that got so wiped out when Katrina hit New Orleans and there was a guy down there that had been really quiet nobody had ever heard anything out of him he was an older guy lived in a house stayed to himself and that night when the water was at rooftop level I mean he swam rooftop to rooftop and save six seven eight people got him out of there and he didn't make it out but he got seven or eight people out of there and you go back and you check his history and he was a military hero he just set quietly in his home and when the situation came about it revealed who he was you know I think that's what happens I think if you've got a hero they just sit there sit there sit there until a situation reveals who they are I don't think it makes them a hero I think it reveals that they're heroes and I think that's what happens to people they they are who they are until they get and then the opportunity to comes along and they're going to show you who that is they may show you they're a coward or they may show you that they've got the focus to hang or they may show you that they're a hero but life circumstances are going to come we're gonna show you who somebody is yeah I completely agree and I think what's also interesting is when someone does get revealed to be a coward they can become a hero it's very hard it's very hard to get past the memory of you being a coward well and I'll tell you why I think that's true if you want to know please I mean maybe you don't going off on a tangent come on no I think I think we learn about ourselves and you know everybody talks about self-esteem and self-worth but nobody ever talks about what it really is or how we get it and I think I think about it in terms of self attribution because you know how you form opinions of other people like if you look at this guy and you you maybe you work with this guy and so you watch him across a couple of years and maybe this guy shows up to work every day and he's there fifteen minutes early and he unlocks the place gets everything ready puts the coffee on has his desk ready he's all buttoned up and man when the bell rings he's ready to go and you just learned that this guy's buttoned up ready to go dependable never misses he's always there so you attribute certain traits and characteristics to him based on your observations of him and your experience of him based on that you assign certain traits and characteristics to him but I say that's exactly the same way we form our own self-image and our own level of self-worth we watch ourselves go through life and we watch how we handle certain circumstances and situations and that's why I say overindulgence is one of the most insidious forms of child abuse known to parenting it's not the worst it's just insidious because if you overindulge your children and do everything for them you never let them observe themselves master their environment you never let them step back and say wow I did that hmm I built this I overcame that handled this I did that and so we that's the same way we make our own self-image and level of self-worth we watch ourselves overcome the third grade we watch ourselves stand up to a bully we watch ourselves handle a test with the information that intimidated us or we watch ourselves make it on to the little league baseball team and actually get a hit when we needed to or we watch ourselves get on to the debate team and actually argue something successfully whether it's academic or athletic or musical we watch ourselves do it and so we go back and say hey I did that I attribute to myself the ability I can hang I can do this I can rise to the occasion or we watch ourselves fold like a pup tent in a windstorm and say you know I can't hang out I don't have it and we make those attributions to ourselves and so we shrink from the challenge for the rest of our lives until like you said it's hard to overcome that and something pushes you up until you finally observe yourself overcome something and I think that's how we form our level of self-esteem and our identity about who we are and I don't think most people think about that you look back and say okay how did I how did I get to be Joe Rogan as I sit in that chair you have a self-image you have a level of confidence and ego strength a level of self-worth that's attributable to things you've watched yourself do or not do achieve not achieve overcome or whatever throughout your life and and I think to know yourself you have to know what those things are I think you're a hundred percent right and I think for children participating in things that are going to test you is so critical giving them this opportunity to realize that the the there's a line between success and failure and that you could push through that line you could you could become successful at something and watching kids that's what I think sports are so important for children I think and that's one of the more insidious things about having these participation trophy for kids worth it nobody wins the game yeah everybody plays but nobody wins we don't keep score why the [ __ ] you plan yeah I mean that dish goes down as an environmental non-event yeah I mean that contributes nothing to your definition is just something to do it's also psychologically it's coddling it's very it's very damaging for your potential education that you would get from that situation the bad feeling that you get with someone scores on you is motivation for you to be better at defense yeah you know I think we cheat kids when we do that and of course you got to play everybody I get that not everybody is meant to be an athlete so okay look do something else yeah be good at what you're good at and if you really want to do it well you've got a long road it's a greased hill yeah start running yeah everything's not for everybody so find what you're good at and watch yourself achieve in that Lane you know that's like I could I can't carry a tune in a bucket okay I can't even I can play no instrument I can't sing I can play a radio if it's got a big on/off knob that's it and so I don't try I mean that's I'm just not good at that so I go into lanes that I can do stuff and observe myself in that but I think you cheat kids if you don't let them observe themselves face adversity and overcome it absolutely and it's also an interesting lesson to learn that life isn't fair I mean if you're a kid and you're playing basketball with a 15 year old LeBron James and you're my height you go huh yeah this ain't gonna work out at all yep you're looking at a towel boy here this is not [ __ ] happening yeah and you have to be able to understand that and appreciate that and then conversely if you're very physically frail you know maybe wrestling's not for you either you know maybe maybe you we need to do something about your body before you engage in any sort of a combat sport you know they did an experiment back in like it was the sixties they did something called teaching machines have you ever seen that no it was a short your time but they they took students in the class where they put the steps of learning the information so close together that there was never a failure experience it would say like the war of 1812 happened in 1812 then the next thing would say the war of 1812 happened in Blanc you Phil in 1812 I mean come on potted plant could get that right so they've put it together and you they would teach the information and they would teach it to criteria where you mastered the information you had it a hundred percent and they said wow this is great everybody learned it so everybody made a hundred everybody got the information they truly did learn it there was no question about it they learned the information and so they did great and then they took him out of that program and put him back in the regular classroom and the first time they came to questions they didn't know the answer to the first time they didn't get a hundred they came apart like a cheap suit they panicked they didn't know how to handle adversity they didn't know how to handle it when they didn't have the right answers they didn't learn how to not be perfect and so they scrapped the whole program because he said you can't do this because that's not the way life is right and if I mean it's you're not teaching how the real world works you might as well teach them to go on red and stop on green and then give them the keys and put them out in life because that's not the way it works and those kids were absolutely screwed up when they got into a truly competitive environment you can't be success only yeah it doesn't make any sense it's not healthy it's not good for you you don't learn from it I mean if the whole idea about school is you're supposed to be setting kids up for the future he's supposed to be teaching them not just information but teaching them how to learn and how to improve yeah and that worries me I you know I've read that story not long ago when these students I think it was at UCLA in law school complained and got a professor either disciplined or fired because he required them take a counter argument over something controversial like Ferguson he said I want you to you know I know you that you're all on this point of view now I want you to prepare an argument for the other side hmm and they all said that's that's upsetting to us we just can't do it and they went to the administration and complained wow that's crazy because you may have for you as a lawyer you may have to represent someone who's done something you don't agree with if that's what you want to do for a living right I mean are you kidding me they were like needed therapy I'm like what the hell has happened here oh my god that's so crazy yeah that's nuts that's crazy you know yeah well there's a there's a movement going on in this country right now that the social justice movement and it leans in that direction that people don't want to look at things for how they are they want to look at things for how they want them to be yeah that just I just don't understand you you cannot legislate that everything is going to be equal for everybody because everybody's not equal I I'm sorry they're not equal they may be equal in terms of their value as a human being yes but they're not equal in math skills they're not equal in how fast they run they're not equal in creativity they're not equal everybody has their own value but that doesn't mean they're marketable skills in an open society in an open market are going to be the same no it's ridiculous I used to have I had a joke and one of my special so two specials ago about there was a story about a woman who was guarding the White House she was the lone guard at one of the doors of the White House and some crazy man broke in and knocked her to the ground and just ran through the White House and he was running around inside the White House for like three minutes before they finally some off-duty US Secret Service agent tackled this guy I saw like what the [ __ ] is going on this guy's running through the White tackle this guy and that the joke was that people think that a woman can do everything a man can do I go a woman could do everything a man could do is that true and some woman he was Lin that crowd that Comedy Store was like yes I go well that doesn't make any [ __ ] sense here's why it doesn't make any sense because a man can't do everything a man can do I go look I've met Shaquille O'Neal and his dick is where my face is and if the White House is experiencing a Shaq attack I'm the wrong person to save the world because he's gonna run right over me I go but if my wife and kid we're guarding the White House guess what I'm getting in okay I love my family but if it's between me and get like there's no way they're gonna be able to stop me I love them to death but I'm a man and they're women and if there's a woman guarding the White House I don't care who she is I'll [ __ ] her up it's not gonna happen this is crazy but this someone had this idea that they would put a woman in charge of a very physical job you should have a giant man with a violent temper and he should be armed okay cuz this is the guy that's keeping bad people from the [ __ ] president yeah I just I don't I don't understand it just seems like you got to find your own lane I mean yeah you don't want to put me in the NBA well yeah physical things in particular women and then there's also mental things look I suck at math okay if everyone has a chance to work at CERN right everyone has a chance to work at the Large Hadron Collider including people that have no idea about physics we're gonna have a real time making these equations work yeah that's what I mean about finding your own lane like you I can't add two and two and get five every time I'm just not good at math but I'm good with words I can talk I can read fast and I can comprehend well but I am NOT good with math so I got myself into a Lane where I talk for a living I read I talk I see Alice a teef not quantitative I can accept that I'm not suited for that I mean that I don't feel bad about myself because of that once you do something and you're good at it you can accept not being good at other things it's much easy if you find a thing that you're good at whether it's gymnastics or singing or painting whatever the [ __ ] it is if you could find a thing that you're good at it'll make you it'll give you a feeling of self-worth and you won't need to be good at everything yeah you can accept and you can enjoy other people being good at things as well yeah you know I said earlier my dad was an alcoholic and I would compare myself to that kid across because I had a damaged personal truth but I found a currency because at that time in my life I was a pretty decent athlete for this small school I was going to so that was my currency yeah so now it didn't matter what was happening at home because I got strokes for being able to jump high and run fast at school so that became my currency so now when I compared myself to him okay maybe my home life wasn't as good as his but I could run faster and jump higher so that became my currency so now I ok that leveled the playing field for me yeah and you all would like you said find what you're good at at a given time and do what you're good at yeah find something you love find something you're passionate about and that you could also excel at and if you can work it out where it's your vocation and your avocation you love doing it and you get paid for it then you're just double blessed yeah you got it right because you enjoy doing this and it works out and that's good yeah you catch lucky breaks yeah if you but that's boy that's lucky yeah it is and if I just think if you're in your life and there's you don't have something that you're passionate about I mean and I don't mean that in a cliche way if there's not something where you wake up every day and there's nothing in your life that you're excited to do man you need to go back to the drawing board yeah because if all you're doing is just grinding it out you get up every day go to a job you don't like do tasks you don't care to do and come home to a home you don't want to come home to and wait to get them do it again the next day you're burning daylight what the hell existence is that yeah I just I don't understand that that find something now I don't care if it's gardening or music or art or athletics or something find something you're excited to do yeah expose yourself to different things with that very purpose of finding something that you love there's something out there yeah there's something out there I guarantee you something yeah there's something healthy it's not illegal it's not gonna be high risk there's something you can do that's not gonna kill you or put you in jail that you can be excited about yeah and I think it's one of the most important things to do when you're a parent is to try to expose your kid to as many different things as possible to find those things for them yeah and I got two boys as you know and you know one of them really well and I did that growing up because my dad never took me hunting a single day in his life he never took me fishing a single day in his life he never took me camping a single day in his life he never took me to the lake he never took me skiing and boating anything so iris ought to all of those things you know I had no clue what I was doing but I took him turkey huntin duck hunting deer hunting skiing snow skiing camping I did it all and to see what they liked let them pick ya and boy when you don't know what you're doing as a dad that's a [ __ ] yeah I mean just little things like you you go camping and you don't realize that sitting your tin up on the side of a hill even if it's like eight or ten degrees is a bad idea yes Lee you've got to get on flat ground it looks flat to me but I spent the night trying not to roll down a damn hill it doesn't look like it was on a slant but it was but you figure these things out as you go along but I was glad I gave him those experiences so they could choose and they did and they'll end this summer that they like some of it they didn't well I don't know both your kids but I love Jay yeah yeah Jay loves you he really enjoys spending time with you guys and traveling with you guys and yeah we've had a bunch of great trips yeah he's an awesome guy it really has so much fun yeah he knows how to have a good time and he says the same thing about you he's you know how to have a good time yeah yeah well listen man tell people how to get old your podcast we're gonna get it well it's fill in the blanks and that's ph IL in the blanks and yeah i guess you get it everywhere podcaster gotten right yeah nice tunes all that jazz iTunes Apple stitcher all the different places there it is right there oh yeah you handsome bastard yeah look at that I mean how about that nice I'll do cleaned up pretty good don't see the good thing about being bald is you look the same all the time yes that's true and you save money on shampoo you save money on shampoo and I've been bald since I was like 12 so really I my hair fell out really early Wow I remember playing college football I'd take my helmet off and it looked like I had an animal in there what my teammates say what the hell is in your helmet it's my hair shut up I don't know why but it just fell out I guess it got knocked out well the mustache works too yeah well some a lot of guys can't rock a mustache I'd look a little creepy with one yeah well I try to keep it where it doesn't look like total porn how do you do that you gotta embrace your weaknesses you know I mean I remember when I wrote my first book on Oprah she said you'll you won't have any trouble finding it's got these big old bald head right there on the front of it so I figure you know he'll make it a trademark right for went hard on you yes the beginning I got no complaints yeah oh I hear you she treated me pretty right yeah it worked out great hey thanks for having me on my pleasure you got to come to mine absolutely all right all right thanks man dr. Phil ladies and gentlemen [Music]

Channel: PowerfulJRE

Views: 7,582,779

Rating: 4.8471031 out of 5

Keywords: Joe Rogan Experience, podcast, JRE #1254, 1254, Joe Rogan, Dr. Phil, comedy, comedian, jokes, stand up, funny, UFC, mma, Ultimate Fighting Championship

Id: 65epASHLblo

Length: 96min 28sec (5788 seconds)

Published: Tue Feb 26 2019

Reddit Comments

[u/[deleted]]

I’m guessing he’s on to shill his podcast? Man, the JRE has really declined.

[u/DubbelFunktion]

Joe: You have a tv show, and you're making a ton of loot. Why do you want to mess around on a podcast?

Dr. Phil: More loot.

[u/[deleted]]

how much to get Dr. Phil on The Dick Show?

[u/Sloppyshits]

He's already set for life from the UFC and Fear Factor alone. He can definitely afford to ask hard questions and risk losing guests. Besides, what's the point of having a podcast if he's not willing to ask the hard questions? He might as well be on a daytime tv show like Dr. Phil then.

[u/Demplition]

I'm not far into the episode but Dr. Phil isn't that bad so far. I like the talk about medicinal drugs, psychosis, etc.

[u/ChubbyPencil]

I have a bit about that