We are filming today for the Hamilton College
Jazz Archive and it's a great honor to have Jay McShann with us today, piano player and
band leader and interesting figure. Thanks so much for joining us. JM: It's a pleasure. MR: You've done so much in your career I barely
know where to start, but what kind of music were you hearing as a child that led you to
what you do? JM: Well I'll tell you what I think really
what brought that on. My dad used to work in a furniture store. Back in those days, remember those old Okeh
records where they had the dog advertising, and they had the horn coming out of the record
machine you know. And they used to sell those at the store where
my dad worked. And so sometimes he'd bring a record player
that wasn't no good you know and he'd bring it home. And there was always two or three records
laying around there in the truck or something. So one day I picked up a record and put it
on and listened to it, and it was "Backwater Blues." And I think it was either Mamie or Bessie
Smith, I don't know which it one it was. It was one of 'em singing. James P. Johnson was backing her up on the
piano, and I heard that and - I heard that and that was it. That's all I would pick up to play on the
piano. During that time see my dad, he liked, remember
the guy that had that tune about Blue Heaven? How was that tune, "My Blue Heaven?" "Ma and me and the baby makes three?" My dad would listen to that kind of stuff. But when they started playing this record
so much, well he shot me down, he says "well I don't think you should be playing that in
this house," he says. He says, "it's the blues, ain't it?" He says, "well" he says, "I don't think you
should be playing it." You know he let me know that he didn't think
too much of it. MR: That was considered to be music that did
not belong in the house. JM: Yes, yeah. It was considered to be offensive I guess
in some kind of way. But I know that he mentioned that to me, he
let me know, you know. So I had to tread lightly, you know. So I think after hearing that, it was just
something that, that's what I liked to hear in the music. It was something I liked to hear. And that was the first thing I think that
started me to listen. MR: Did you have a piano around the house? JM: Yes we had a piano around the house, and
you know like back in your high school days, the band teacher was trying to get my folks
to get me a horn but the folks was poor back then in those days you know, I mean really
poor. So I never did get the horn. MR: This was in Oklahoma? JM: Yeah, Oklahoma. So I never did get the horn, after I didn't
get the horn, then I started fooling around on the old piano. MR: Did you mostly learn from records then? JM: Yes. Hit and miss. What do they call it, hit and miss? MR: I think you hit most of them. What was the first time you got out to play
with a band? JM: Well some guy was looking for a piano
player, someone to play a party for him. He was having a party one night, and he couldn't
find nobody. So finally one guy told him he says, "well
old Mac up there" he says, "I don't know how many tunes or songs he knows, but" he says,
"I hear him plunking around on the piano every once in a while." So the guys came up there and says, "man,
we've got to have a piano player tonight." They says, "and we can't find nobody, but
they say that you play a few tunes." I say, "no I don't play well enough, I couldn't
play for a party." He says, "well I'll tell you what you do." He says, "you just come on and don't you worry
about nothing, and you play for this party and how many tunes you know?" I say, "about two tunes." He says, "play those two tunes over and over
until the party's over." That was my first gig you know. And they did, they paid me you know. So that's what I was doing, playing the two
tunes over and over. MR: This is all right. JM: It was miserable. But after they gave me that bread you know
I began to think, man I says well maybe I better try to play some other tunes. And so you know I looked at that money and
I says, "oh, yeah." MR: That set you on the path, yeah. JM: I started then. MR: Did you have to do the service? Army service? JM: Oh, yes, yes. Well that's really what broke up the big band. MR: Yeah, I got a little ahead of myself there. I want to hear about the band before the service. JM: Yeah I fooled around and got delinquent
you know. What I wanted to do I figured I says while
we're on the road traveling, so I'll either go in when we get back to New York I'll go
in from New York, or either go in when we get to coast, the west coast. And so I had wrote them and told them to send
my papers to New York and I would take my exam there. So they missed me in New York, then by the
time I got to the west coast I wrote them back again and asked them to send my affairs. And the papers came about a day or two after
I had left the west coast coming back this way. So they caught up with me in Kansas City,
and they took me off the bandstand and took me off to Leavenworth. MR: They don't fool around with that, did
they? JM: No they didn't fool around. The guy told me he says, he was real nice
at first, we took intermission you know, and we took intermission and he says, "we've got
some important business we've got to talk to you" and there's two of them. They says, he says, "we'd appreciate it if
you'd finish everything you've got to do, so we can get to this business." So I kept fooling around, so they came back
to me and says, "look I'll tell you something." They says, "we don't want to upset you or
nothing, but we've got - here are these papers we've got. Read these papers. These papers got two red I's on them, that
means immediate induction." So when I read it I see, they said, "this
means we've got to take you back with us tonight to Leavenworth" which was about 30 miles from
Kansas City. So I says, "now what do I have to do?" I said, "I'm trying to get somebody to play
in my place to finish the job tonight." So luckily, George Salsbury, a piano player
was there in the dressing room so I called George over, so George finished the gig for
me that night. And I went on with them to Leavenworth. And the next morning when a guy looked at
my papers he says, "you're in the Army." He says, "welcome." I said, "I hope you don't mean that." He said, "yes I do." He says, "here it is." He said, "immediate induction." MR: And this was that year? JM: That was 19 - what was that - I believe
that must have been about 194- it might have been 1944 I believe. '43 or '44. MR: And after the service you ended up in
Kansas City? JM: That's right. Just after the service I came out and I went
back to Kansas City. MR: What was the musical scene like in Kansas
City at that time? JM: Well the day that I got back to Kansas
City it was Dave Dexter was recording so it was, he was in Kansas City recording and I
got in on that. MR: Who was? JM: Dave Dexter. MR: Oh, okay. JM: So then after he found out I'd gotten
in town, then he had me do some things there at that time. MR: When was it that you got to put your own
band together? JM: Well I lost that book see. The book that I had at that time, somebody
came down to the auditorium the next morning and picked the book up. And I never did hear any more about the book. So I had to start out with trying to get another
book together. So that was it. A hit and a run, a hit and a miss you know. MR: Tell me about the first group you had
that came to New York and did they pit you against Lucky Millinder's group? JM: Oh, yes. See - see at that time Lucky had quite a band
and Lucky seemed to be, he was about the most
feared group around there. And so they had the number one and number
two bandstand and so it was, what they do is I think they start you out on number two
and then after you figure you're pretty good, you think you're all right, and then they
let you go to number one. But anyway though, we had a lot of fun with
Lucky. We used to play a half an hour each I think
it was. We'd play a half an hour each, half an hour,
and the first band that got there played an hour. And then that way they got off an hour earlier
though. The last band played an extra hour. And so after we started playing, you know
how the guys play a couple of sets. So the cats they get antsy. "Hey man, when are you going to start getting
in the books?" You know. "When are you going to get any books." So we decided well okay, maybe we should. You know they were just playing a few stocks
and a few little light arrangements. So we started getting in the books and so
we had a little place downstairs where during intermission when Lucky would be playing,
we'd go down there and we could drink and talk. So Lucky was downstairs drinking so Lucky's
band man, he went down stairs and he says, "Lucky?" He said, "you better come upstairs," he said,
"I don't know what these guys are doing up here" but he says, "I think you'd better come
up here and check it out." And Lucky says, "man, don't be bothering me
about those western dogs, I don't want to be bothered with those western dogs." See back in those days, everything west of
Chicago, if you were west from Chicago and west, you was considered west around New York
then. You know they consider all that western, even
if you're from Chicago you're from the west. So he says, "no I don't want to be bothered
with those western dogs." Okay, well, we began tightening up. Each set we began tightening up. So they started tightening up on the next
set, and he went back downstairs and he says, "Lucky, I think I'll come back again- the
guy told me you'd better get up here and see what's going on." You know by the time Lucky got in there I
guess apparently things were getting in pretty good bloom. The cats is swinging pretty good. So when Lucky came back on the stand, he had
a lot of stuff that was in his books, it had a lot of salesmanship and stuff like that
in it. But it wasn't swinging, you see? So we just kept swinging. And the crowd went for the swing, you know,
the crowd went for the swinging. They had that dance group there around New
York called, oh I forget. And it looked like the dance group was just
made for us and we were made for them, and just everything just worked perfect. But it was a lot of fun though. MR: Was Charlie Parker on that particular
group? JM: Um humm. Yes, yes, the Bird was there. He's the one who wanted to get the book so
fast. MR: He wanted to show him something, huh? Was it shortly after that that you did a radio
broadcast with him and opened it up with "Cherokee?" JM: Oh, yes. MR: Can you tell me about that, how that worked? JM: Oh, yeah the guy called down and he says,
"can you keep this going a little bit longer?" I says, "yeah." So we kept it going a little bit longer. That's just how that happened. MR: Was there a difference between the swing
from Kansas City and what they were doing in New York? Is it possible to tell us about the difference
between that? JM: Well there were some guys around New York
that was you know, certain musicians they have certain calibers and some guys you find
are of a close caliber together and you find some guys is way out here in west field you
know. And you find somebody way over here you know
what I mean, you find it like that. So you had quite a, a lot of different things
going on. It was a lot of different fields we'd say,
a lot of different musicians and different fields and going in different directions and
so forth. And well New York I'd say they was blowing
different from the western cats you know. We called them western. They was blowing a little different around
New York. They had the eastern touch and whatnot. And the cats from the west was swinging I
think, they was doing more swinging. Because you see you take the Texas tenor players,
come up from Texas see, they came up from Texas and then you take the cats coming to
Kansas City from the west coast you know and you had another breed with the west coast
cats. And then the cats coming down from up north,
cats coming from the south and all over you know. Well you've got a mixture of stuff see? And then you'd hear the cats talk and say,
"say man there's a new cat in town just come in here from Texas" or, "coming here from
California. Let's go see what he sounds like." Cats come in and you know they scrutinize
you. MR: What kind of impression was Charlie Parker
making when he was with your group? JM: You mean what kind he made with the people? MR: Yeah. JM: Well there's a lot of places where I thought
the people would never ever wake up. A lot of places he never made no impression
at all. It was a horrible thing to say, but a lot
of places he never made no impression at all. And some places he made an impression you
know, made good impressions. They always loved Bird at the Savoy Ballroom. They loved Bird all over New York City. New York loved him. But it took him so long to decide, well what
are we going to do about him, or what are we going to do with him. I figured, I said, it'll never happen. You know because it's just like this. I can remember when, you know Jimmy Forrest
was a great player. He was on that same band. And Jimmy Forrest would get up and Bird would
play something like "Body and Soul" everything they used to play on it. And Jimmy Forrest used to get up there, and
you know he had the salesmanship going, he'd get up there with his salesmanship, nobody
could do nothing after Bird finished. And then he'd get up there with his salesmanship
and tear the house down. Things like that, you'd begin to wonder, you'd
say well what's it coming to? MR: Now you worked with some great Texas Tenors
yourself, Buddy Tate? Some great recordings. JM: Yes Buddy Tate was one of them great Texas
Tenors. MR: When did the hits with Walter Brown come? JM: Well we were going to do some records,
and so Walter was singing with a group in Kansas City, and I went by there where they
was appearing. So I figured I says, we've got to do some
blues, I thought I might do a blues. And I listened to him sing the blues and I
didn't have but a half a dollar, so I went up there and told him, I says, "that blues
you just got through," I says, "sing it again" and I gave him a half a dollar. And well you see a half dollar went a long
way at that time. I gave him my last half a dollar. And he did the blues over. And I liked it. So I like the blues. I came back and told I says "man, listen"
I said "I like that blues you did and I'll tell you" I says, "I want to talk some business
with you, first chance you get." I said, "but you're going to have to give
me half of that half a dollar," I says, "'cause that's going to get me a bowl of chili." I said, "that was my last half dollar." He says, "here, man, here." He gave me a quarter back. Yeah, you know if you wanted to get something
done you had to get off that bread in the right places you know, at the right time. It was a matter of time. So he gave me back half of it. And so then we put a couple of arrangements
together, and so when we got ready to record, we took him on with us you know. And in fact he started singing with the band,
that way they would be more familiar you know with what he was doing and the numbers. MR: And so you had some pretty good records
with Walter Brown. JM: Yes, yes, yes. We were lucky to have Walter Brown. MR: And you toured around the country? JM: Sure did. MR: What kind of places were you playing at
the time. They were dance halls? JM: Well we were just playing dances. You know like they'd have dances. See they used to have a lot of -well a lot
of parts of states at that time were hungering for dance, hungry for music, hungry for hearing
something different you know, and so quite naturally a lot of bands, road bands, were
traveling and so that made it nice for road bands. So they didn't have no problem booking us
you know, and they'd book us. And we'd say, "man, we're going to Texas,"
see? All the kids, liked the Texas, Louisiana women
you know. They'd talk about it, "yeah man they've got
some crazy babes down there." One night we hear we're going to Texas. See and people turned out, they were good
dance towns all down, and you could get into Texas and play Texas for two weeks you know,
because you had all those towns and all those dance towns. See what I mean? Start at Dallas, Fort Worth Sunday night,
Austin Wednesday, Houston Thursday, Galveston Friday you know. And just town after town like that. And that's the way they could book 'em you
know. So I'd made bookings were pretty nice, and
so that kept things going. And then these bookers, the guys doing these
bookings got together and was bringing a lot of bands down, all through you know. They'd bring bands through maybe for about
30 days, 30 or 40 days, yeah. MR: Were you playing for segregated audiences
at that time? JM: Yes. In some places we played I mean whites on
this side and blacks on that side you know. MR: How did they keep them apart? JM: Humh? MR: How did they keep them apart? JM: Well they might have a rope coming down. MR: Yeah? No kidding. My goodness. And Jimmy Witherspoon came on board a little
bit later? JM: Yes, yes, Spoon came on board later. We had a lot of fun, yes sir. Yeah Spoon wanted to sing the blues. Yeah, he wanted to sing the blues. MR: You had a big hand in his first recordings,
right? "Ain't Nobody's Business." JM: Yes, yes. Yes that was a big tune. Yes. MR: Did the tune "Hootie Blues" did that come
before your nickname or was that after your nickname. JM: That was after the nickname. Yeah, see, a lot of guys - well when I first
came to Kansas City, you know you're getting around meeting the musicians and all the cats. So I would go down to different clubs and
meet them. And he says, "hey, bartender" he says, "we
got a new cat here in town, why don't you fix him up with one of your specials." The bartender knows what to do. You know during that time they had a beer
they called three-two beer and what they'd do with that beer is they'd pour some of it
in a glass and put a touch of that alcohol in there, yeah I guess it was, yeah, alcohol. And it tasted good and it would be cold, so
cold that frost would be on the glass. And I couldn't turn that down. So the cats, "fix him one more - are you about
ready to blow man." I says, "yeah." "Fix him one more, bartender." The bartender fixed that second one, then
I'd get up to go over to the piano and I can't get out of the chair. So when they're refer to me they'd say, "man
you remember that cat that come out of hell last night, that come to sit and blow?" "Oh you mean you're talking about the cat
that came in and got hooted?" Yeah. Yeah, he was hooted, yeah, he came in here
last night, some piece from somewhere down there you know, just come in town, come in
here and got hooted. Sit up here and the bartender fixed him a
couple of them good ones for him, and he got hooted and couldn't get to the piano. So that started it. And that was it and it stayed, "hooted." Now they say "hey, Hootie." MR: I bet you had played some bad pianos over
the years. JM: Oh, we've had some awful pianos. I know I used to - sometimes we'd get pianos
and the pianos would be so bad I'd get drunk. Yeah I'd get in front of that mess you know,
and say, "well now we ain't going to have no piano tonight." I says, "Brown, there ain't going to be no
piano tonight, you'll have to sing with the horns." And some of the pianos you know you'd have
to tune, like we used to tune up with A. Sometimes you might be tuning up with C above A. Or
maybe F below A you know. Now that's how far they were out of tune some
of them. And a lot of times if the band was playing
in A flat I'd probably be playing in B flat or B natural. That made us have to go get drunk on that
night. I had my excuse already made out. I'd get in front of that mess, cut out and
go back to the hotel about 11:00. MR: Were you and
Count Basie in Kansas City about the same time? JM: Yes. Well I came in right after Basie left and
went east. MR: You and the count were kind of compatriots
in the same kind of music. JM: Yes, well see there was a white fellow
there, he played piano too. Named Walter Bales in Kansas City. And Walter liked to play for himself. And he'd listen to me, and he'd get together
and he'd rent a piano room and he'd rent it and he and Basie, they'd get together, and
he'd rent the room for two pianos in it. And then after I came to Kansas City, he would
get three pianos, because Basie would be coming through on a tour, he'd say, "Bill will be
in town" so he says, "get ready, I'm going to rent three pianos in the room down there
at the Jenkins." So we'd go down there and we'd have three
pianos. And we'd just have a ball, the three of us. And that's how I met Basie. And he and Walter Bales, they were very good
friends. They'd been friends, Basie used to come out
to his house and play you know, play the piano you know. MR: Did you ever have occasion to play with
Jimmy Rushing or Joe Williams? JM: Oh, yes, yes. I used to get a kick out of Rush. Rush would, there would be a little stand
like this he would have to go up on. And Rush would be just worried, say, "oh,
I can't get up there, I can't stand no heights, I can't stand no heights." And, "come on here, hold on to me now, don't
turn me loose." And we'd get him up there on the bandstand. The bandstand would get him up on would be
this high. And as soon as Rush get up there and started
to listening to all that music and everything, Rush would be dancing all over that stand
and the stand was just a small stand. And I said, "now he said he didn't like heights,
what's he going to do when he looks down and sees?" I used to get the biggest kick out of that. And the rest would be just moving about, you
know, doing his thing. He never gave it a thought when he started
singing or anything like that, he didn't give it a thought. He'd go up and down those steps just as good,
and go all about his business, and the very minute when he quit singing on the bandstand
and he's sit down and a few minutes passed, he would get up, and then he would set back
down. MR: He moved pretty good for a man his size. JM: Oh yes he did, yes he could move. MR: What was it like doing the films? You did the "Hootie Blues" and -
JM: Well we had a lot of fun. A lot of people came up there and got full
of that mess, they'd had a little too much you know? And you'd turn and every night the guy that
was doing the film, Bruce Ricker, Bruce would send Joe home with a fifth of scotch, and
another fifth to wake up on. And he'd give him a slab of ribs - and get
him two slabs of ribs. One slab is to eat that night, and if he didn't
finish that he'd wake up during the night and eat the rest of it. And then wake up with a slab. A fifth and a slab of ribs. Wake up with it. So Bruce asked Joe, "Joe did you get your
wake up taste?" "Yeah, I got my wake up taste." "What about your ribs?" "Yeah, the ribs was fine." And it was like funny. And snow was on the ground during that time. They'd go to take Joe home, go to drive him
home to the hotel, and you know Joe was weighing about 350 pounds. And the two smallest guys there was these
guys that they sent to take him home. So they decided to stop somewhere one night,
and Joe got out of the car and they couldn't get him back in. He slipped and fell and they couldn't get
him back in the car because they couldn't get him up, these little skinny guys and Joe
350. It was from them ribs and booze. Oh they had a time trying to get him in the
car. But Joe would just have a good time. He'd tell everybody, "I'm just going along
for the ride." MR: And "The Last of the Blue Devils." That was a great little film. JM: Oh, thank you. MR: What's in store for you in the future
from here? JM: Well I don't know. I guess I'll just roll with the punches, whatever
happens you know, is. I guess that's the way I explain it. MR: Well it's nice to see you reunited with
Spoon and the Fiddler. JM: Yes it's like old times. MR: You've had a marvelous career, and it's
been such a pleasure to talk to you. JM: It's a pleasure being here, thank you. MR: Do you sometimes see re-issues come out
of records that you've forgotten you made? JM: Yes that it true, yes. A lot of times like I say we've made stuff
and we've forgotten about it. Yes that is true. MR: What's on the agenda for tonight? JM: Well we're going to do the blues tonight,
let's see I think we've got Spoon there, we've got Plas Johnson, you know Plas Johnson can
play anything you know. It don't make no difference what it is, he
can play it, you know. I wish I had a feel like that you know. Yeah Plas can adapt. It doesn't make any difference. It can be a swing tune, it can be a pop tune,
it can be a ballad. He's just ready for it you know. MR: Well on behalf of Hamilton College I
want to thank you again for joining us, and it's been a great pleasure.
JM: Well thank you too and it's been a pleasure.
