MR: Greetings. My name is Monk Rowe of the Hamilton College Music Department. We are filming for our jazz archive today
and as a very special event, we have two of the jazz greats with us this afternoon, Mr.
Milt Hinton, bassist extraordinaire, and the great jazz vocalist Joe Williams. And we're going to let them talk, and relate
some of their experiences in the world of jazz. JW: That was the thing, man, singing with
feeling, you know? But you and I we were talking about what they
call the good old days. MH: That's right. JW: When the union decreed that we should
get three dollars a night. MH: That's right. JW: Those musicians. I wasn't in the union, so I didn't get three
dollars. I got a dollar sometimes. Sometimes 50 cents, sometimes 75 cents. But you know what they used to do, the reason
I'd always be grateful and love musicians besides the fact that they've been my companions
all my life, sometimes the fellas used to put in a quarter a piece for the singer. MH: Yeah. JW: And that was really beautiful, man. To me it was. MH: Sure, what the hell. JW: I tell people I say like 50 years and
for you it's even longer, that your association has been with musicians. MH: That's right. I can't tell you how proud I feel and how
grateful. I remember what really made me feel so great,
after knowing you all these years, and I was at Carnegie Hall, and I was in a band, and
man I felt so good, I'd say, I could remember the time Joe would be there and would say
we're going to play this tune before the singer come out to sing, and I was so glad to be
here, for the singer. It was beautiful. JW: Yeah, that was quite a thing. George Wein made that thing possible. He told me he said, "It's time for you to
produce your own show." I said, "Oh?" I said, "Okay." And of course I got together with my man John
Levy and that was, I liked that very much, and it went the way I wanted it to go. MH: This was beautiful. JW: It started a cappella, then with piano,
then we brought on the rest of the rhythm section. MH: Then the big band. JW: Yeah, and three horns, and then finally
the strings, and finished the first half of the concert. And then the second half we started it with
Joe Turner, and I can't ever think of his name - had the band that had Charlie Parker
in it. From Kansas City? MH: Oh, Jay McShann. JW: Jay McShann, that's right. McShann. MH: Well I've been in Carnegie Hall many a
time and I've played there and felt very lucky to meet many great people, you know, Streisand
and all them. But I've never felt like I felt that night
cause we'd come, we'd come all the way, I'd seen it all the way. With John Levy you know. His wife Gladys, his first wife Gladys and
I graduated from high school together, you know and we were all friends. JW: Well just tell me something. Did you get a chance to get any, just a taste
of Louis Armstrong playing with Lil Armstrong and the boys that came, the fellas that came
from New Orleans? MH: Well I was with the fellas when they were
in rehearsal, and I came out when he had the Hot Five with the Kid Ory, with the Kid Ory
in there. And I started coming to rehearsals and standing
right there, he says, "Son get back you're standing in the way," you know? But that was my impression, that was my introduction
to show business. I'm listening, about 5:30 in the morning I'm
delivering my newspapers down by that Sunset Cafe, and I'd look in the window at 5:30 in
the morning and I've got my paper sack on my back, and there's all them guys, Louis
and all of them in tuxedos there, and a nice cold glass in his hand, and a nice lady standing
there. And I've got my paper sack on my back and
I look and I say, that's where I got to be. That's why we're here now. JW: They had a nice lady. MH: Yeah, they always had their lady there,
and the waiters is putting the chairs up on the table, and it's all over, the night is
all over, it's 5:30 in the morning. JW: Well I've often said that I had that choice
between tuxedo and overalls, that was the choice when we grew up. MH: That's right. JW: And we chose the tuxedo. And Ellington and Earl Hines and all the guys
that, and Erskine Tate. And Louis Armstrong played in that band, and
he had - MH: Yes he did. My mother used to take me down there to see
his band. Eddie South was the violin player there, Jimmy
Britton was the drummer, he's the guy that taught Lionel Hampton. JW: No kidding? MH: Jimmy Britton, yeah. JW: Oh my goodness. I didn't know about Jimmy Britton. MH: Oh he was wonderful. I got the chance to play with him before he
died. JW: Yeah, he and Clark Smith. Tell them about the band. MH: Oh, the man was my master. JW: Louis had Ray Nance. MH: Ray Nance, Lionel Hampton. You know what was so wonderful about that
it was a black community, and we didn't all go to the same school, but we all met musically. So with bands, like, you went to some school,
I went to Winifred, but we had rehearsals, and then after hours, we met, and that's how
we got to know each other. And to see all of that going on, we had Clark
Smith and the Chicago Defender, the newspaper, hired Basie and Clark Smith to start a youth
band, and that's where we came in. My mother was Nat Cole's piano teacher. See my mother played for Nat's father, had
a church on Deacon Street, and a storefront, my mother was the organist, piano player for
the church, and for the BIPU, so she had Nat there. He was always a nice guy. You know I was always getting in trouble,
and my mom would say, "Why can't you be nice like Nathaniel?" And I couldn't stand him. 'Cause as kids, we really thought what we'd
like to see was his big brother, Eddie. JW: Yeah, Eddie. MH: Eddie was bad, he was really bad. He's the first one of our group that really
got a gig, Cecily Briggs hired him. He went to Europe and come back speaking Spanish,
and that's where all the guys in that band had put that in it. But that era, that whole era of seeing all
those wonderful people coming from all parts of the United States to Chicago, seeking the
better chance for their children. That's really what they were doing. And here they can get a decent job, and the
biggest stockhouse in the world in Chicago, Armour and Swift, and they had all the best
hotels in the United States were in Chicago. The Congress, The Blackstone, the Edgewater
- JW: Palmer House. MH: Congress, yes Palmer House, and they went
there because Chicago was the center of the United States before airlines. People in California couldn't get to New York,
it took almost a week to get to New York, and vice versa. And if you did you had to come through Chicago
anyway. JW: There you go. MH: That's right you had the Twentieth Century
Railroad, it ran from Chicago to New York, and you had the Santa Fe Railroad that ran
from Chicago to California. So businessmen said well there ain't no sense
making a trip all the way to New York or California, let's meet in Chicago. So that's where it was bustin'. And that's where we came in. Our parents found where they could be porters
in railroad stations, and red caps in the railroad stations -
JW: Services. MH: Yes, services. Unskilled labor, which we had loads of, and
a decent salary, and a chance for our children to get a decent education. And think about those schools man, they were,
weren't they wonderful? JW: Oh, when I went to Englewood High School,
it was predominantly white. I mean it was over 80/20 white when I went
there in 1933, back in 33, 34, 35 and 36, and 37, the end of that four year period. But the music though, in our town, was the
thing that really astounded me. MH: That's right. JW: What was the name of those brothers, one
played clarinet, the other played from, they came from New Orleans? MH: Olhan Brothers? JW: Olhan Brothers, yes, but they had a bunch
of people that came from New Orleans there that was really doing it. Jimmy Noone. They could do it in the box, you know, and
the guys that played clarinet. A lot of clarinet players came up. MH: Oh, yeah, every gig, [inaudible] they
had Scoops Carey. JW: Bob - oh God what was his name, the trumpet
player? Real black cat, man, Bob something, he was
a lead trumpet player, a beautiful trumpet. Bob something. MH: Bob Shaffner. JW: Shaffner, yes. MH: Oh, great trumpet player. JW: Yes. We, those musicians, I see pictures sometimes
with them. And then you got the job with Cab Calloway
and started traveling. MH: Oh, yeah, 1935. Cab had a great bass player and the most magnificent
man I've ever seen. JW: Al Morgan? MH: Al Morgan. He looked like he was almost seven foot tall. And immaculate. And always immaculate. And I was afraid to talk to him because he
was just too great. But I'd stand, when his show was over I'd
stand out by the curb and see how a bass player conducted himself. And he come out all sharply dressed and the
ladies would ask him for his autograph, and he'd write autographs over there, and he would
write his autograph on a piece of paper, and he'd reach in his pocket and pull out a sheet
of stamps, and tear one off, and put it on his autograph. And I said, "Wow, man. If I get ever so - one day I will do that." I haven't made it yet, but - give me a sheet
of stamps. But he was wonderful. And how I got the gig was they went to California
to do this movie with Al Jolson, the singer. And Al Jolson was so great, I mean Al Morgan
was so great and he had such photogenic features and things, that Cab looked around and the
camera was on Al Morgan, it wasn't on him. Well that didn't sit too cool. And the director of the movie told Al Morgan,
said, "Look, you've got a lot of style. If you're out in here in California we'll
try to do a movie with music in it, you have the job." So Al Morgan quit. He stayed with Les Hite's band, with Lionel
and all those guys. And Cab Calloway had to come back east without
a bass player, with Budd Johnson's brother, Kay Johnson was in Cab's band, and he say,
"Well look, check out Milt Hinton if you're going through Chicago. He's down to the Three Deuces with Zutty Singleton
and Art Tatum and Lee Childs." I'm down there with them guys, $35 a week,
best job in town. JW: I know, I know. Deuces was the best gig. MH: That's right that's where it was, the
Deuces - JW: And broadcasting too. MH: That's right. And Fletcher Henderson was at the Grand Terrace,
$35 a week, with John Kirby on bass, trumpet player. JW: Roy Eldridge. MH: Roy Eldridge. JW: And Chu Berry. MH: Chu Berry. And they was always looking for a jam session. After they got through at the Grand Terrace
they'd come down to the Three Deuces and jam with us. So Cab came down to the Three Deuces and saw
the band down there, and he never said a word to me. He was all dressed up in a big cool tan coat
and that derby and he was walking around and people say, "That's Cab," he walked over to
Zutty and said something to Zutty, he says, "How's that bass player?" So Zutty says, "He's okay, this kid's okay." So Cab says, "Can I have him?" So Zut says, "Yeah you can have him" and nobody
asked me nothing. So they just gave me to Cab. JW: Sure, that's right. MH: Zutty say, "Kid you're going," I say,
"I'm going where?" He say, "Cab just asked me for you" in that
New Orleans style, "Cab just asked me for you. You're gone." JW: He's going, baby. He's got it made. MH: I had to call my mother up, it was three
o'clock in the morning. Called my Momma and said, "Look, I got this
job and I gotta leave in the morning at nine o'clock." And she had a little canvas bag with a clean
suit and underwear and I had to have a gabardine [inaudible] suit," and I had to go to the
South Street Station, and got on that bandstand. JW: She didn't give you a little brown bag
to take too? MH: Yeah well she had a little fried chicken. JW: A little fried chicken in there. MH: And I got on at the South Street Station. I'd never been on a Pullman in my life, Joe. You know I didn't come from Mississippi on
no Pullman. JW: I'm sure. MH: I got on this Pullman, and there was all
these great musicians on there, Doc Cheatham, Kay Johnson, Foots Thomas and all these guys. And I said Kay Johnson got me the gig, he
recommended me, and I said to Kay, I say, "Kay, I didn't ask Cab about no money or nothing,"
I say, "He just told me to be here at nine o'clock." He say, "Everybody in this band makes $100
a week." I almost fainted. I almost fainted. I said I'll be a millionaire in two months. JW: Well, and sure enough you are. MH: And listen to this. Ben Webster got on late. And I must have weighed about 109 pounds soaking
wet. And then once I staggered to the men's room
and was standing there being introduced to the band, and he said, "Now who is that?" He said, "What is that" talking about me. And Cab say, "That's the new bass player." He said, "A new what?" And I said I'd never like him as long as I
lived. He turned out to be my dearest friend. JW: Yeah, he was fun guy. He was always putting people on, making people
think he was a cad, but he wasn't, he was really a good guy. MH: He had the softest heart. JW: Didn't he? Yeah. MH: I learned so much from this man. JW: Cab also, had that front, that would scare
people a little bit too. But you knew the kind of person he really
is, for instance with your first born. MH: Oh, that's right, well I says, "Cab my
wife is pregnant." He say, "Yeah, mine too." He say, "Have this one on me." So the baby was born, you know, Charlotte
was born, and three months later we're in California and I'm trying to make a two o'clock
feed and make the gig that night and Mona's half sick, and Cab says to me, "Look man I
told you to have that baby on me. Find out from Mona how much it costs for everything." Back in those days it cost about $300 for
prenatal care. And he just laid it out to me, man, it was
like manna from heaven. And when my daughter got married, he was right
there, "That's my girl." He was an amazing man, really. And still there hasn't been that much written
about him, and I hope those young people will get to interview some people that worked for
him to really be able to write what a great personality he was. He wasn't that much older. I'm 85, Cab was 87, 88, but he was so far
ahead of us in being - JW: The things that he did, his visions of
how to deal with what was at the time. For instance, he was one of the first, if
not the first of the black entrepreneurs who would hire a train, you know a car, for just
his group. And so they wouldn't have to deal with other
people. MH: He certainly did that. JW: And nobody did say anything because it
was his car. And we'd get to a town and he could park it
on the siding and the fellas would stay on, they'd eat on, and what have you, and relieve
themselves. And then it came time to leave and they'd
hook it up and take in on to the next place. MH: Yes, sir. JW: But that was a great comfort and innovation
in those days, you know. MH: He was amazing. He had a whole Pullman car for himself, and
a baggage car. He had a baggage car big enough to have a
Lincoln, a green Lincoln in there, and he had his chauffeur. And the dignity of this man, he insisted on
cleanliness, he insisted on punctuality. And nobody you can, if anybody was ever in
Cab Calloway's band would not come late on your gig. Because he'd say, "I've got to be here, you
better be here." JW: He had the greatest musicians. I remember in 1943 when he got Illinois Jacquet
away from Lionel Hampton. That was a funny story. Do you know that story? MH: No, I don't remember that one. JW: Illinois went to, not to Basie but to
Lionel Hampton and said, "Hamp, you have to give me some more money," he said, "I need
some more money." Hamp said, "What you mean you need some more
money?" He said, "You've got to give me some more
money, now you've got to give me some more money, man." He say, "What is it 'Flyin' Home?'" He said, "Flyin' Home?" He said, "Yeah, I recorded 'Flyin' Home' with
Benny Goodman." And you know what the kid told him? Didn't sell four copies. Yeah. Because everybody in the world that had a
saxophone played [humms]. Everybody played it. MH: I've got to tell you this story now, I
did once, I got out of Cab's band. He wanted to play with Duke. Duke is the most clever man in the world. Clever. And now Barney Bigard and Johnny Hodges are
not speaking. And Barney didn't want to play tenor, he just
wanted to play clarinet. So they were having a tough time there, and
then Duke had heard Ben playing and Ben said, "I sure would like to be in that band." And Duke say, "I'd love to have you in my
band, but Cab's band and my band are brother bands, we're out the same office, we can't
take anybody from one band to the other. And Duke with his charisma says, "But if you
didn't have a job, I'd have to give you one." The light lit up in Ben's head, and I'll tell
you we were in Cleveland, Ohio [inaudible] ballroom. Ben comes to me and says, "I got, I'm gonna
quit." I said, "What are you talking about, we're
making $150 a week, you crazy?" He says, "No, I can do better." I found out, so he says, "I gave Cab his notice." So Cab said, "Why you quitting? You want some more money?" He says, "No, I don't want no more money,"
he says, "I just want to freelance a little bit." So Cab say, "Well who can I get?" And Fletcher Henderson was in the Grand Terrace,
with Chu Berry, $35 a week. That's the God's honest truth. And here we are making $150 with Cab and treating
us well. So he says, "I can get Chu Berry for you." So Cab say, "You can?" So he called up over there and called Chu
and told him $150 a week, Chu jumped out on the train, come over to Cleveland, and sit,
for two days, sit on the bandstand with Ben, showed him Cab's work, and Ben split Cab. Ben had heard that Duke was going to be in
two weeks from then, in Chicago. So when Duke got in town, Ben was standing
there and says, "I ain't got no job." And that's how -
JW: Oh, that's so beautiful man. MH: Yeah, very cleverly done. JW: And he wrote for him so beautifully. "My Greatest Mistake," I remember that, "I've
Got it Bad and That Ain't Good," and all the marvelous things that he wrote for him. The first thing, I think one of the first
records I bought was "Truckin'," and then he did the other thing [scats]. "Cotton Tail." MH: Well Ben wrote a chorus for that. [scats]. And Ben wrote a saxophone chorus for that
[scats]. And Ben come to me and say, "Look I just wrote
a tune, and Duke is going to, fix it up." I say, "What's the name of it?" Ben named it "Shucking and Stiffing." See but when Duke put it on the air. He called it "Cotton Tail." JW: I love that. People talk about Ben's solo, but one of the
things that I love about it is the reed chorus. MH: That's right. JW: For all the reeds. [scats] They was like swinging. [scats] And Sonny Greer, nobody talks about
him, but Sonny Greer had the theory, he had the theory that he said, somebody said to
him, "How, what is the job of a drummer with the band." Sonny said, "To try not to get in the way." MH: That's true. JW: And they would swing, you know [scats]
MH: Keeping time. JW: That beat, oh it was really beautiful
to watch and to listen to. My band, boy. Dancing there. Now there's one that Ellington used to talk
about. He said our music was made for dancing. But there's no more ballrooms for us now,
you know? MH: Well I feel sorry, and that's the reason
I think so wonderful of you, and I see you out working and that's what I do a great deal
of, is trying to go around to the schools now, and impart some knowledge to these young
people because they don't have an apprenticeship, for them to come in like we came in, like
I came in Cab Calloway's band with all these giants, Ben Webster, and Cab, and Doc Cheatham,
you know, and I got a chance to learn something about discipline and things like that. We don't have those bands for our young musicians,
as with the masters, to sit down and watch them. JW: That's true. MH: So we have to try to do that in the schools. JW: Yes, we do. MH: We're trying to do that, and I know you
are, and Clark Terry is a masterful at that kind of thing. JW: Oh, Clark is a marvelous -
MH: I learned so much from him doing that, and so -
JW: I insist that they don't get a chance to do one thing and that is to listen, and
to hear the other musicians that they're working with. MH: That's true. JW: Everybody's got a microphone in front
of them, you know? With a microphone in front of them, and have
a - "well look, I can't hear my monitor" you know, that type. Everybody's an engineer. But your monitor - but wait a minute. I start by telling them if you can't hear
everybody else in this organization, you are playing too loud. That's all there is to it. MH: That's right. JW: And if you can hear, see how you going
to relate to what you haven't heard or what you can't hear? And music is relative if it's nothing else. I mean otherwise, you're just out there blowing
and it doesn't mean anything. It's not going anywhere, it isn't saying anything. MH: And the thing like this is a good thing,
when young people can get to see us, talk to us, and we can get to hear them, and speak
freely about certain things. I'll tell you a funny thing that happened
to me last night. The last two weeks or so, before I came on
the boat, I've been Teaching Artist in Residence in the Manhattan School of Music. And it's wonderful up there, these great young
kids and things. And last night I was sitting at the table
having dinner, and a beautiful little girl came up and says, "Mr. Hinton, you remember
me? I was in your class at Manhattan School of
Music." A young bass player, a girl, a beautiful girl. And I said, "Why yes I did, how you doing?"
you know? And she says, "I'm Benny Green's friend, I'm
here with Benny Green" So my wife says to me, "Is that the girl you give the set of
strings to?" Because I always give young people sets of
strings. But she was so pretty my wife says, "Well
was that the girl you gave the set of strings to?" But it was so wonderful to see them coming
up. Benny Green and all those young guys I see
coming out of here, it's just amazing. JW: Yeah. It is nice to see that our tomorrows are really
in very good hands. MH: And I'm so happy about that because people
don't usually see us only as - I mean the derogatory things about us. They always find out about the young ones
who are really doing something, and accomplishing something, and we have to let them be seen
and heard sometimes. All the people talk about is the things that
are happening that are very bad, you know? JW: That's true. MH: They don't - they won't write up in the
newspapers and magazines about that I've been married to the same lady for 56 years, you
know, or that I was a deacon in my church for five years - but just maybe what they're
doing, get a ticket for something and it'd be all over the world, you see in a second. And that's got to be stopped. We've got to make it better than that. Now young people are doing a better job of
that than some of us did before. I'm very happy to report that. JW: Well the nice thing about it is that because
we've traveled the way we do, and we go everywhere, we have a chance to be a proper extension,
representing the United States of America, mind you. MH: That's right, role models. JW: And representing humanity, per se. I mean and going wherever we go, and the message
that we carry is like beauty, love, rhythm, and expressing yourself musically, what have
you, and that's why it's probably the world's, I mean our greatest export, America's greatest
export anyway. The music itself. MH: Well it's auditory art. It's understood, it's universal. We recognize people and we appreciate people
by how they sound. The whole art of this is how we sound. We want to be around people that sound good,
so we can improve ourselves and improve the whole thing. And it's universal. The same B flat is the same B flat in China
as it is here. And it's universal today. JW: And it's nice because we enjoy the European
classical music, and the European folk music, and gypsy music. I mean the feeling of it all. The Russian music, it doesn't matter what
it is. Music is music. And Ellington said it, that category is there,
it's either good or it's bad. If it's good music, it's good music. MH: And we will have to teach them to learn
that you must get the academics. It isn't that it's classical, it's academic. You learn the academics of your instrument,
and about the theory of music, and then you can apply it any kind of way you want to. You can make it blues, you can make better
blues, more explanatory blues, depending on how your academics are, you know? JW: Who is that young man, Spike Lee? Started out a bass player in Chicago? Mo Betta Blues. MH: Spike Lee. Really. I worked with him he's one of the most magnificent
men. A true flower child. JW: Isn't he, really. He was part of the choir. MH: He was a conductor in the Bass Choir,
in the young bass player's choir. He was a conductor. And then he didn't have anybody, and didn't
care about anybody. And the only people that were making any money
in that Bass Choir were Richard Davis, Ron Carter and me. We were making a record date. And we was working a lot. JW: And you pulled in Cranshaw. MH: That's right. JW: As I remember. MH: That's right. We brought him to New York with you. JW: Yeah, we came in to - he was the only
one of the trio that came in to one of the record dates because I always was fortunate
enough to get you, Osie Johnson, and Hank Jones, and with Jimmy Jones and I would wait
'til we could get you, until you were available to have our record dates. MH: I remember Bob Cranshaw looking over my
shoulder, I've got pictures of him looking over my shoulder observing what is required
of him. Now he's in the recording studio. JW: That's true. But you know the thing about that that was
so beautiful, you were doing the, with Bobby Rosengarden, you were doing the television
show. What's the boy's name? MH: Dick Cavett. JW: You were doing Dick Cavett's television
show. So they wanted a Fender sound, remember that? And this was years later now, many years later. And one day you were around Cranshaw, and
Cran said, "What's the matter?" And you said, "Man they want this thing here
and I don't know if I can get this thing." And Cran says, "Come on over here and let
me show you." MH: That's right. I was scared to death. JW: The whole thing turned around. MH: It sure did. JW: And he was able to help you. MH: I was scared to death in there. JW: And you showed him, then he turned right
around and was able to show you. MH: He sure did. I took him down in the basement of my house
and there we were and we had practice with the radio. And I was, and Dick Hyman called me for a
Fender record date. And I said, "Oh my Lord, here I've got this
Sidewinder." And everybody else got their regular instrument,
and I walked in there with this Fender bass. And we got to playing and I'm playing the
thing and I don't know nothing. I knew the fingering but I don't know nothing
about equipment. And the engineer said to me he says, "Ja,
Ja, will you give me a little more highs?" And I start to go up this way. JW: You went up the frets. MH: I didn't know anything about an amplifier,
what was an amplifier? And my friend Barry Galbraith just said in
the amplifier, they put in more treble. JW: Barry Galbraith. He was the other part of that group. MH: That's right, New York Rhythm Section. JW: That was the New York Rhythm Section. We would say, "are they available?" Then we will record. If you weren't, and we did that for years
we did that. MH: That's right we made three record dates
almost every day, 10-1, 2-5 and 7-10. JW: Yup, yup, yup. That was a beautiful time. MH: It was what you personified, and what
you've always been like, I tell everybody and everybody says, "But Joe Williams can
sing anything, I didn't know nothing about a key." They were playing what tune he wants, you
know. And that's what we tried to do, the three
of us, Hank Jones, Barry Galbraith, Osie Johnson and myself. We tried to play for you what you, it's your
date, we've got to make you sound good. That's what a rhythm section is supposed to
do. If it's my date then I'll tell everybody what
to do. On your date, we're going to do whatever we
can do to help you sound good. JW: It was beautiful to see the expression
on your face and Osie's and Hank, when the new music was put in front of you. I mean like, "Ayyy, yeah, hey look what we
got," you know. Wow, like it was like somebody bought you
a new gift. Cause Jimmy Jones was writing then, and-
MH: Oh, yeah, well he was contractor, you know, Jimmy Jones. We could really read music and that was the
thing that I thank my mother this very day for that, because I wanted to play everything,
and she says, "You got to learn to read that music." And that's what we could do, we could read. And young Adderley's on the boat here, and
yesterday on the Meet the Stars he was telling some people about a picture I have, I have
a picture I took of Cannonball, sitting down with a stack of music and it's falling down
off the music stand, all over the floor. And he says, "I got that picture of yours." I say well, "That was on a date with Barry
Galbraith on guitar, Art Farmer on trumpet, Cannonball Adderley on saxophone, and yours
truly on bass. No piano, no drums. I said, "It's the hardest record date I think
I ever made in my life." John Benson Brooks wrote a thing called "Alabama
Suite" and [inaudible] off everybody. And Cannonball was sitting there looking at
that music, and he played every note on it, it was so beautiful. JW: Well he was the - Julian was articulate
in more ways than one. MH: That's right. JW: He was a teacher for a long time. He tells a marvelous story about Benny Carter
coming through Florida, and he sent word for Benny to come over to where he was playing,
you know? So he looked up and this fellow walked in
and sit down at the table right under and everything, had a case with him. Ordered something to drink and was sitting
there and listening. And finally he reached and pulled out his
alto and put it together, and come up on stage and he says, "Benny couldn't come but he sent
me," Porter Kilburn. He said when Porter got through with him he
said, "Well I guess I better go back and practice some more." "Benny couldn't come" he says. Cannon told that himself, really. MH: It was a beautiful era. And I'm very happy that we survived it. JW: We were lucky. MH: That's right. A million reasons. We were lucky. JW: I think that the way we came up, like
you spoke about the church. And obviously from a Christian family. And I said last night on stage I think that
one of the reasons we turned out the way we were because if we did anything wrong, really
really wrong, I mean we couldn't go home, cause they would have killed us. MH: My mother had the shortest fuse of anybody. JW: And you couldn't embarrass them, and get
away with it. MH: My mother told me, "Look, you can do this. If anybody else can do this you can do it
now go down there and do that." I once had a scholarship down at the YMCA
on Wabash Avenue, playing violin. And I went down there, and nobody spoke to
me, and I didn't know any of the people, and nobody spoke to me, and I felt terrible. The girls didn't say anything, Dorothy Donegan
was a young girl. They wouldn't speak to me. So I come home and tell my momma I say, "I'm
not going back down there, nobody's said anything to me. The guys didn't speak to me, the girls didn't
speak to me." She says, "I didn't tell you to go down there
to socialize. It's a scholarship involved. And you can play, go back down there." And I went back down there and got the scholarship. But that was the kind of lady she was, like
I told you. JW: Well a nice thing about that, many people
didn't know it, they know about Ray Nance the violinist, but they don't know that Ray
used to play second violin in the orchestra too because, you were the concertmaster. MH: Yeah, well I was a year older, so I had
the first chair. And then when I graduated, Ray got the first
chair. And we were both doubling up on bass and violin,
because when Ray went out with his violin and his trumpet, but there's no double for
bass, you know, in the band, there's no time to put the bass down to play something else. JW: Where was Truck? Truck came to the city -
MH: Yeah, he came to Chicago. JW: He was? MH: Yeah, Truck was there. There was a big decisions as to whether I
taught Truck or whether Truck taught me. We were the same age and we would recollect
together. His recording was the one that blossomed out. We were all over his, on the west side. And Chicago was -
JW: And his sister could play piano. MH: Yes. JW: Oh, his sister played the greatest piano. MH: It's funny how Chicago was set up at that
time when we were young. The south side was 99 and 44/100% black. Then there was a group of black people on
the west side. Now for some reason we on the south side thought
we were more affluent because there was more churches over there on the south side, and
more of us in schools over there. But here comes Crosby, his sister and a lot
of guys on the west side that were just outasight musicians and entertainers, really great. JW: Really super, you know. MH: That's right. JW: I remember working with her at a place
called The Jug, I sang from table to table, and split the tips with the guys on the stage,
and she was one of the people on the stage. And she could play anything. That was before the old boy with the band
got her and took her with his band, and which she stayed with him I think until she died,
you know. But, Buckner, or somebody, one of the boys
had a band. But she was working playing the piano there,
and Israel was playing bass with us for a while. MH: That's right. JW: Oh, he was so beautiful. MH: He was beautiful. JW: God could he play. MH: Israel Crosby, and Wilbur Ware, that's
another bass player from Chicago. These two guys I remember listening to them
play. And I always said I wish I had thought of
that. Because Israel Crosby played the most beautiful
notes. JW: Yeah, didn't he? Those things he did with Ahmad Jamal, you
know. "Poinciana" and stuff like that that they
did together. MH: He did things before that with Benny Goodman. JW: After, I think, wasn't it? MH: I'll tell you a funny story about Benny
Goodman, now. Benny Goodman was nine months older than I.
July 18, 1923 I took my first violin lesson. My mother sent me to the west side to the
Jane Ellis Hull House, every Saturday, where kids could get music lessons for twenty-five
cents. And Benny Goodman was right there. There was nine in his family. We were, back in 1923, we were taking music
lessons together. And he remembered that. We'd argue and fight, he'd fire me and hire
me back again, but we had respect, of a musician, a good musician. He knew what a good musician is. He was a good musician. It was unfortunate that he wasn't nearly as
liked as well as we wish he had been liked, but it was because he had such an insatiable
desire for perfection. And you know Benny wasn't born in Chicago,
he was born in Russia, outside Kiev. But when his mother and father came to Chicago,
he was a baby in arms. So you can apply for papers for your child,
as born in America. I found out that years later. And we kept our friendship to the last. If his daughter got married, he called me
up and say, "Hey, Milt, my daughter's getting married, you and Mona come on over on Friday." He'd say, "Bring your bass." And he was all dressed up in his finery, so
proud of his daughter getting married, and we had George Barnes there, and Bucky Pizzarelli,
and a bunch of musicians. And we were over in the corner playing and
everybody's congratulating Benny Goodman because his daughter's getting married, and his foot
is going like this, tapping his foot. And next thing we know he's got his clarinet
and he's right over there with us. He was an insatiable musician. JW: Did you hear that marvelous story that
Mel tells about him, Mel Powell? He says Benny came out to California in later
years and called him up and says "Mel?" He says, "Yeah, Benny." He says, "Let's do lunch." So Mel says, "Yeah, all right. You buying?" He said, there was a long pause, and Benny
said, "Let's go Dutch." MH: He couldn't get away from that. I got a funny one. There's a million Benny Goodman stories. You know he called you up, saying he'd just
passed from Concord Records, Carl Jefferson was out there in California, and he was having
a big jazz party out there, and he called me up and he says, "Milt, I'd like for you
to bring a group of major musicians from New York out, so get some guys." And I say, "Okay, I'll get them together." So I got Jo Jones, Claude Hopkins, Budd Johnson,
Benny Morton, Roy Eldridge, and I mentioned Jo Jones and myself. You couldn't get a more senior group than
that. So we were going to go to California to do
this concert. So Benny Goodman's going to be out there. So Carl Jefferson told says, told Benny, says,
"Well Milt is going to come out and bring some guys," and he says, "Oh he is?" Well maybe I can get them to play with me. He says, "Call him up and tell him that." So Carl Jefferson says, "No, you call him
and tell him that." Now Carl Jefferson is giving me $6,000, a
thousand dollars apiece for each one of us to come out there. And Benny Goodman called me up and say, "Hey,
Milt, I see where you're going to be out here in California at the concert." I say, "Yeah." He says, "I'm closing, do you want to play
with me?" I say, "yeah Benny, I don't mind playing with
you," I said, "what's the bread like?" He says, "Will $185 be okay?" I say, "Oh, wait a minute, Benny, wait a minute"
I say. He say, "Okay, what do you want?" So I figured out, I got greedy. I say, well I'm getting $1000 already, I'll
just ask him for $500 more. So I say, "If you give me $500 I'll do it." He hung up the phone on me. He hung up the phone. JW: Mel, they did a television show out there,
Merv Griffin, the Merv Griffin Show I understand, and so they said why don't we do "I Know That
You Know," or something like that. So Mel struck out a tempo [scats]. Then Benny said, "Too fast." Mel says, "Not for me." Great stories about Benny. Sy Johnson could tell you stories about him,
you know. Because he called Sy Johnson and asked Sy
to come out to help him fix his repertoire, fix his book, his music, you know? He said, "It should be in order, so would
you come out and help me organize it?" So he said, "Yeah, Benny, I'll come out and
do it for you." So he goes out to the house and says he walks
in and Benny says, "Hi, how are you, come on in. What can I do for you, Sy?" So he says, "You told me you wanted me to
come out." He says "Oh, yes, that's right." So he shows him where the music is and everything,
and he's in there and the phone rings, and it's Benny. Benny's in the other part of the house calling
him over in the music room. He says, "What are you doing?" He says, "I'm fixing the music, I'm getting
it in order the way you-" "Okay, all right," you know. Benny come in and he'd just disrupt everything,
you know. He said, but he was what he is, he is Benny
Goodman. MH: That's right. JW: And when he puts that instrument in his
mouth - now there's one other thing. You spoke about him in Chicago, Illinois,
they used to bring him over to the club to hear Jimmy Noone. MH: Absolutely. JW: And what were those two brothers, one
played drums I think and the other played clarinet. MW: Johnny Dodds? JW: Johnny Dodds. Thank you, thank you. Johnny Dodds and those cats man, they were
something. He came over and when you hear him, if you
hear them as you and I did, then you know where Benny came from and where he was. Like "I Know That You Know," [scats] that
stuff he plays all that intricate stuff he plays, man came right out of him, and the
lower register things Woody he played. MH: He'd mention things about Jimmy Noone. And I remember because in the 30s I remember
I was working with Eddie South, a great violin player, and I got the job to play with Eddie
and he had just come back from Europe. And we got to give the men or what we call
on the other side the gangsters a lot of credit for helping music along, because they almost
closed and they kept music. Capone's. Al Capone had the Cotton Club on Cicero. And he had people, he opened the Cotton Club
with black entertainers and white customers, and the gangsters. And he opened a club downtown, it was called
the Club Rubiat, for his gangster pals just to have some place to come and bring their
ladies to have lunch. It seated like 75 or 100 people. He put Eddie South in there. And we played all these different places for
him. And I remember, Dix Debill was the conductor
for Ben Bernie's band. And his father was a violin player. So he used to bring his father over to hear
Eddie South. And Ben Pollock was playing a club in Chicago. And Jack Teagarden, Benny Goodman -
JW: Woody Herman, all that bunch came out through Ben Pollock. MH: That's right. They would come over and hang out with us
on the other side. JW: Well the musicians always got together. Like Benny, he never made any fuss about it. He never made any political statements or
anything about it, or any social statements or anything about it. But he introduced Teddy Wilson and Charlie
Christian, and Lionel Hampton and later on Sid Catlett -
MH: And Cootie Williams, Basie. JW: Basie, you know he didn't care. The music was the thing, and -
MH: And all the time was hot. He listened to how you sound. JW: Really, and he didn't care about it. And Charlie Shavers. MH: That's right. JW: You remember Shavers. He told him, people were scared, you know
they were frightened of Benny, you know. And they rehearsed and they were going to
do a job and they were rehearsing, and Benny says, "All right, let's go over this thing
again now." And he'd be playing and playing, and he says,
"Yeah, okay, okay let's do it now one more time." and Chuck, Charlie Shavers said, "Benny." He says, "Yeah, Chucks, what is it?" He says, "You can get it tonight or you can
get it now this afternoon. You can't have it both ways." He says, "Well that's it fellas, that's the
rehearsal today." You can not have it both ways. Loved to do dances, man. Dances, I mean dance. They can dance like in the music they can
dance. MH: I'll tell you one of the most poignant
appearances I ever made with Benny Goodman. It was during the Reagan administration at
the White House. And the King of Jordan was coming to the States
to visit. And usually when a dignitary would come they'd
ask you what kind of music does he like, and he could decide if he liked opera, they'd
get an opera singer, if he likes jazz, they'll get a jazz singer. So the King of Jordan says well I'd like,
I'm interested in jazz. So the Chairman of the Board was musical administrator
for the White House when Reagan was in. Sinatra was. So Reagan called on him to get jazz musicians. So the King of Jordan's coming and Reagan
calls Sinatra and says, "Sinatra, get some guys for me for the King of Jordan." So Frank called us, not Benny, cause if Benny
calls we go south. "See if you can get Hank and get Milt, and
see if you can get Buddy Rich, and Bucky Pizzarelli, and do a little something for the King of
Jordan. He likes jazz music." Benny says, "Okay, you call." So Frank called us. So naturally we were going to do it for the
Chairman of the Board. So we get to the White House and now Benny
wants a rehearsal. And you know Buddy Rich ain't going to make
no rehearsal. But of course I was there at the rehearsal,
Bucky was there, and Hank Jones and I were there, up in Benny's apartment and we come
up there and sit around for a half hour, and Benny comes up, "Hello fellas." He picks up his horn. He says, "Thank you I'll see you later." And he never touched his horn. Well he got on that stage at the White House,
and I never heard him play any more beautiful than he played that night. And Buddy Rich was the only one, Buddy is
a violent and dangerous man, but Benny turned around to say, "Would you mind playing 'Sing,
Sing, Sing?'" He says, "Anything you want, Benny." He went into it just exactly the way Gene
would have played it, that's the way Buddy was. It was an amazing night. He played that thing [humms]. JW: Which one, his closing theme? MH: No. That thing [humms]. Sarah Vaughan sing it. [humms]
JW: I don't know what that is. MH: That's cause I can't sing. JW: Don't you know the words? Don't you know the words or anything? Like Prez, don't you know the words or something? Well hum some of the words, man. MH: Isn't it grand? JW: Oh, "Send in the Clones." [sic]
MH: Thank you. See he knows how to get me. Hank Jones and Benny Goodman played that thing
so beautiful that night. The King of Jordan sit there and cried. It was just such a beautiful night. One of the most beautiful nights I ever remember
playing with him, because there was no rehearsal, we just went in and we'd played "Seven Come
Eleven" and all the songs we knew, and he really played it beautiful. JW: Well things about Ellington said, or someone
said it anyway, Ellington is forever. I think the music is forever. MH: That's right. JW: The only regret that I really have, and
I hope somebody will take care of it, the young people today coming up playing music
and playing rhythm instruments particularly, not wind instruments so much, never had that
experience of playing for dancing. MH: That's right. JW: And when we had to do it, every single
night. And you had to have it right. It is an exact thing that we do. It is flexible, but it's still exact. That tempo, and the time, and the feel, the
feeling that is given. It's something that they missed altogether. I mean a lot of the young people they missed
it altogether in big bands, in fact they get together now and they have six pieces, seven
pieces and a synthesizer, and electric doodads and they make noises, but they're not breathing
noises. MH: I've just got to mention about you, man. I've seen you under every kind of circumstances
and you amaze me, how you can take over and make the punishment fit the crime. And I'm thinking now, on Duke Ellington's
70th birthday in the White House, this was a magnificent, and the public should know
how that came about. Nixon was having a lot of trouble with the
black community. JW: Oh yeah? MH: Yes. He couldn't you know, he didn't vote for us,
we didn't vote for him, and he didn't do a damn thing for us. So it was just that way. So he was having a lot of trouble in the White
House, and one of his assistants, used to be a clarinet player, can't recall his name,
he was an assistant to Nixon, he said, "What do you think I could do to kind of get the
favor of the black folks community?" He said, "Look if you give Duke Ellington
the Medal of Freedom, and give a party in the White House for him, everybody loves Duke. See that might kind of cool it out." He said well go ahead and do that. So that's how that thing came about. JW: I thought Willis had something to do with
that. MH: Willis Conover. The clarinet player, what was his name? He was an assistant, he used to play the clarinet
in Woody Herman's band. JW: Oh, that's great. MH: I knew him very well. JW: That's great to know that we have a mole
in the White House for jazz. MH: That's right. So he organized it. And we got together Duke Ellington's friends. I don't think there had ever been that many
black folks in the White House at any one time ever. JW: Yeah, but I loved it because there were
white people there too. MH: Of course, there are always white people
there. JW: But I mean like Bill Berry was in the
band, Urbie Green, Gerry Mulligan. MH: But I'm not talking about the band, I
was talking about the public, Duke Ellington's friends. JW: Oh, friends of Ellington, yes. MH: Your wife was there, my wife was there,
Basie's wife was there. Woody and Lionel was there. The band was -
JW: Oh, yeah, friends of Ellington. Yeah. MH: There was five piano players, you remember? Five piano players. Willie The Lyon, Earl Hines, Marian McPartland,
and Hank Jones. And the drummer was Louis Bellson. Jim Hall was the guitar player-
JW: And Dizzy Gillespie was just in the audience. MH: Yeah. JW: Yeah. He wasn't even on the stage. Clark Terry. MH: And Bill Berry. JW: Clark Terry and Al Hall on guitar. Al, what's his name on guitar? MH: Jim Hall. JW: Jim Hall, yes, Jim Hall. MH: Jim Hall. It was a most auspicious night. It was auspicious because you got up and sang
that - JW: Oh, yeah but you were shocked, Tom Whaley. Tom said, "You want me to conduct?" I said, "You made the arrangements, why don't
you conduct it?" Oh, man. MH: Well I've been a lucky dude, because I
talk like my sister, Pearl Bailey always says, "I've been to the White House so many times
I just call it 'The House.'" So I've been in there, and everybody knew
me pretty well, and I always had a camera, and everybody was looking at me going around
with the cameras you know. So when jam sessions got to be going, I handed
somebody else the bass, and I had my camera and I went around, and I really took some
pictures. I took some pictures that I really love. I've got pictures of all of us coming in with
our wives, I've got pictures of us with the jam session on the bandstand, and one of my
best pictures is a picture of you, Lou Rawls, and Billy Eckstine trading choruses on the
blues, and what else- there's some beautiful pictures there. JW: Of Duke Ellington dancing with Carmen
Delaballa. I have it on my wall at home. MH: That's right. And we finally got Duke to come to the piano
and play some in the jam session, and you see Kissinger behind him with a glass in his
hand, and Willie The Lion sitting beside him over there. Some shots, just unbelievable shots. You and Billy Eckstine and Lou Rawls. And Dizzy over there jamming. In the meantime they had a reception line
going around, you know, between Duke and the first lady and Mrs. Nixon. And my wife is in a reception line with Katherine
Basie, Basie's wife. And I got my camera and I'm talking all these
pictures. And my wife is looking at me like, "I know
you're going to get us in front of shaking hands with the President," and you know something,
when they got about three steps from the President, I ran out of film. And I could see the rays coming from my wife. And there were some photographers there, and
I go over there and say "hey daddy, can you give me some film?" The guy gave me a roll of film, but I was
too nervous, I couldn't get it, I never took that picture. All that night, they never forgave me for
that. But it was an auspicious night. JW: We drank champagne until two o'clock in
the morning. I was trying to drink up and ride up. MH: What was that song you sang down there? Duke's song? JW: Duke's? "Heritage?" "Heritage." My mother my father in love, yeah that one. And "Jump for Joy." MH: Oh, I know what I wanted to tell you. Soon as it was all over, now there was a Marine
band that plays for all of the festivities in the White House. They were in the ballroom and they'd play
for dancing. And I know the bass player. We're good buddies. So they don't let any of that tape and stuff
out of the White House. So they taped everything that was going on
there. Well I come back later with Pearl Bailey,
to do something in the White House with Pearl Bailey, and I see the bass player, he says,
"Man that was great night," he says, "You guys played so beautifully and everybody was
dancing just great." I say, "How do you know?" He said, "Oh we got the tapes. I looked at the tapes." I said, "Man you got the tapes?" He said, "Yeah, they don't let nobody have
them." I said, "No? I sure would like to hear that." So I go on and perform and tour with Pearl
Bailey, and while I'm performing, the bass player comes over to me and say, "Where is
your bass case?" "It's over here in the corner." So he drops the tape in there. This is the time when Nixon was having all
that trouble with tapes. JW: So he gave you the tapes. So that's what happened to the tapes, huh? You got them? MH: Man you know I wheeled my bass out there
with the tapes. JW: "Oh, hold that bass right there, let's
look at that." MH: Yeah, it's beautiful. JW: That reminds me of that tale that Pete
told last night, you know every time he'd go through customs going to Canada, they would
look at his Tasty Cakes, examine his Tasty Cakes, break them open, see if there's anything
inside them. And still he gets so he says when he goes
to Canada, he gets his Tasty Cakes you know here, and he's got the pile of dope here,
and when they start to go in the Tasty Cakes, he goes, "No here's what you're looking for,
it's over here." Well I want to thank you, man, we could talk
for days and never repeat, oddly enough. MH: So beautiful to be here, Joe. JW: Yeah, but you, your time up at Hamilton. That was so delicious, though. Milt, you know, Fillius, he's the man, he's
the man, one of the Trustees at Hamilton. And he has done wonderful things, up there,
to honor you. But I've got an idea, too. I think if Doc Cheatham would just hold on
a couple more years, I think we ought to get him too. MH: Oh absolutely. JW: Cause I don't believe what he has done. MH: He's an amazing man. JW: What is he, 89 now? MH: 90, he's 90 now. JW: You're kidding me. Oh my gosh. MH: He's amazing, absolutely amazing. And he's playing now, not fooling around,
he's playing. JW: I know. I know he's playing. You know it's difficult I imagine. MH: I was walking down the street with him
in Nice, France one day at the Nice festival. He said, "I was in a restaurant here in 1923." I was in the sixth grade. JW: I was a baby. I was, I don't know if it was on camera, at
the college at commencement when they honored Clark Terry this year, and it was real, real
big fun. I had a chance to tell him now he's a collared
Fellow, with the hood on. You are now officially a collared Fellow. Dr. Terry. MH: Dr. Terry. JW: Thank you for giving the precious gift
of our time. MH: Thank you. It's been "nighty mice," as Jo Jones used
to say. JW: Jo, yeah. I think he stole that from Basie. MH: Nighty mice. JW: Nighty mice.
