My name is Monk Rowe and we are interviewing
today for the Hamilton College Jazz Archive. It's a great pleasure to have Cal Collins,
guitarist, with me today. CC: Thank you very much. MR: Welcome. You're from the midwest originally. CC: Yeah, mideast we like to call it. MR: Okay. Not quite into the west. CC: Yeah, I was born and raised and live around
what they call the tri-state area of Cincinnati, but we live in Indiana, which is just across
the border. Kentucky is across the border, south. MR: Did that part of the country have a identifiable
style of music that you were growing up with? CC: Outside of a lot of bluegrass, a lot of
real traditional, country music, bluegrass, pretty eclectic really. A lot of jazz fans, a lot of Dixieland fans
and everything, but if there was one, I would say it would be bluegrass probably. MR: Bluegrass has - you played probably, some
bluegrass then. CC: Yeah, I sure did. I played when I was very small I played mandolin
in a bluegrass sort of situation. MR: Did any of the music that you learned
in that situation help you in the jazz world? CC: Oh, yes, quite a bit. I would say that bluegrass is really the jazz
of that kind of music because so much of it is off the top of your head type thing. Bluegrass musicians really plays the same
songs all the time for instance, you know, a lot of times, but a little bit different
every time, just a little bit different. MR: So it leans towards improvisation quite
a bit then. CC: Yeah, quite a bit, yeah. And a lot of technical things, a lot of fast,
really fast tempos, and very good musicianship. MR: I've always looked at those mandolin players
and wondered - it's such a small, little area to deal with it seems like. CC: Oh, I know it. And they're speeding bullets you know. MR: Your education in music, was it mostly
self-taught? CC: Yeah, all. No formal training at all. Not a bit. MR: So it was all in the ears then? CC: Absolutely, yeah, all of it. Later on, well it was after I got out of the
Army actually, I was about 26 I think or something, 25, 26, and there were people around the area
that had music stores. And they always have little music studios
where they teach kids, you know, and beginners and everything. And so they were after me to do some teaching,
and I said I don't know anything about it, about that end of it, and they said well get
a Mel Bay book I and go through it, and then keep ahead of them. So that's how I did that part of it. MR: You were teaching yourself. CC: Teaching myself, right, as I went along. MR: As you went along. Well sometimes the best teachers are the ones
that had the practical experience. CC: Yeah, I would think so, yeah. And they can keep ahead, it's very easy to
look at the paper and see what I was doing, that type of thing, for beginners especially. And even like the advanced players, some of
the players that came in, they weren't too much interested in the book, the reading,
they were interested in techniques and different chord positions and all that kind of thing. So it worked out good. MR: So what was your first gig? Can you remember what would have been your
first gig? CC: I was five. MR: You were five. CC: I had a little small guitar and it was
in Westport, Indiana, and I played and sang "Hand Me Down My Walking Cane." I was five years old. And they gave me five dollars, which was an
awful lot of money then. A five dollar bill for my fifth birthday,
it was just right after my birthday. I had that five dollar bill for years. MR: It almost sounds like that Elvis story. He was at a county fair or something and he
won second prize. CC: Yes, about the same thing. But it was so neat, God, you know, five dollars. I was born in 1933. I'm 64. So that was in 1938 then, around through there. And five dollars, good grief, a down payment
on a car almost. MR: That's coming out of the depression. It was what mid-30s I guess. Check my history book. But yeah, that would have to be a nice chunk
of money. CC: Yeah. A real nice chunk. And I can remember everybody scuffling. That was a pretty rough time. Most of my people were into farming so we
had plenty of food on the table of sorts, but some of the people I can remember, that
was a rough time, for the working man. MR: And so you were a teenager during World
War II. Do you remember, how did the war affect the
area where you lived, and the people? CC: Pretty much, a lot of flag waving and
red, white and blue type things you know, in that part of the country and all over I
guess really, it's not that much different. And of course when I was a kid I was very
interested in flying, aviation. I used to fly quite a bit. I had my own pilot's license and everything. But at that time me and my brothers and cousins
would get into building model airplanes, the P-51s and the P-38s and all that. We were really into that type of thing. MR: Did the music of World War II get into
your head at that time? CC: Oh, yeah. There was a lot of great tunes written during
that era. Of course the 20s and 30s and all that, some
of the best music I guess that there is. But some of the tunes that came out from the
war, there were some great tunes. "White Cliffs of Dover," "I'll Be Seeing You"
and all that kind of stuff. Great tunes. MR: Do you ever remember any of the big bands
at the time coming through your area? CC: Yeah. I remember at a very early age, I was very
interested in jazz, without really knowing what it was I guess. Because I had my own radio, the whole bit,
and at that time you could just tune in almost any station on the radio and you could hear
good music, good big bands, Woody Herman and all that kind of stuff, and Nat King Cole
trios, Dave Cavanaugh was one of them maybe. Real good groups, very good groups. MR: Was Benny Goodman still - he was hot then,
right? CC: He was hot about that time. I loved his trio things, you know, the trio
and the quartet, the small things. And he was really an idol of mine, and it
took until I was - how old was I when I joined him, it was in '76 I think, '76 when I joined
him. And I was with him for about four years. MR: We'll get to that. CC: Yes. MR: Rewinding just a moment to bluegrass. You know you read very often a quote from
I guess jazz historians or sociologists, and they say that jazz is the only true American
art form. But I wonder about that statement, in referring
to bluegrass for instance. Where does bluegrass come from if not America? CC: Yeah, that's right. I guess maybe they figure that the origins
of bluegrass were really U.K., you know from Scotland and Ireland and England and Wales
and all that. Because some of that music is very similar,
the fiddles and the reels and the jigs. MR: Celtic music I guess. CC: Yeah, that stuff. So maybe they figure that because of that,
because the origin maybe was there, instead of here in this country. Yeah, that might be it. MR: I guess you can trace things back far
enough, you can say they came from somewhere else. CC: Yeah, absolutely. MR: What about blues? Was blues a kind of music that you heard as
a child? CC: Yeah. There's a lot, in old country music, and even
in bluegrass, some of the bluegrass, some of those breakneck speed type things are based
on blues changes, so many of them. So many tunes are in the what they call the
1-3-5 changes, and that kind of thing. [1-4-5]
CC: 1-4-5 okay. MR: Kind of a little music theory lesson here. CC: C, F and G7. MR: See that's interesting though, because
the player doesn't have to talk about it, they just have to play it. CC: They just play it, that's right. MR: And then you had a period in the service,
was this in the 50s? CC: Yeah, right in the mid-50s. MR: Did you get to play during your service
career? CC: No. MR: That's too bad. CC: They sent me to helicopter school of course
in the Army, and being I had a whole lot of experience in fixed wing flying, I learned
to fly when I was about 16, around 16, well I had to be 16, yeah. And fixed wing - I never even was inside of
a chopper, oh maybe for a ride or two or something like that. So the Army of course sends me to school,
helicopter school, and spent all that money, and I really didn't fly that much helicopter,
I flew more fixed wing than I did helicopter. But it was a transportation course at that
time. And I was right in between the two war things
there, so I missed that. MR: Right, fortunately. We look back on the 50s as an age of innocence
I suppose, and somewhat prosperity after the war. Do the 50s seem like that to you? CC: Yeah, they did - yeah, they did. I never had any problem, before I went into
the Army and after I was in the Army, I didn't have too much problem getting work. But the Bill Haley and the Comets, and all
that rock & roll really got into it as far as popularity was concerned I think. Real good music, big band and jazz and all
of that sort of faded from the limelight, and here comes Elvis and all that. MR: Right, and at the same time you had jazz
turning to bebop I guess somewhat. CC: Oh, I was really into that. I loved that change, it just fit, it seemed
like it just fit me just perfectly. Yeah, I really liked that. I can remember the first times that I heard
people like Parker and Miles and some of those people. And then later on of course some of the real
good tenor players, I loved them, Stan Getz and all that thing. But I don't know, the bebop was a new direction
for the music, and I loved it, still do. I consider myself a bebop player I guess. MR: Technically do you think it's harder to
play Charlie Parker type lines on your instrument than let's say on the saxophone? CC: I don't think so. A lot of guitar players I think maybe there's
a lot of them that can play lines like that, bebop lines. But a lot of guitar players, myself included,
are really influenced by the straight ahead, mainstream swing guitar, Barney Kessel type
things, and all that. As a matter of fact I think Barney Kessel
probably influenced more guitar players that are around my age maybe or younger or something,
than people give him credit for. Even though he's not all that older, Barney,
of course he's in bad shape now, I think Barney maybe is like 13 years older than I am, which
would make him probably 76 or something like that. He influenced a lot of players. MR: Yeah. They usually mention Charlie Christian perhaps
more than him. CC: Um hum, Charlie Christian of course. MR: But he was not around for very long. CC: That was one of Barney Kessel's major
influences. And the redhead, it was one of his, he talked
about him all the time, Herbie Ellis. MR: Oh. "The redhead?" Is that what you call him? CC: I call him the redhead, or the farmer
- I call him the farmer once in a while because he was born in Farmersville, Texas. He calls me a hillbilly and I call him a farmer. MR: Well you've been around the country, you've
lived in a number of places. You moved to L.A. for a while, is that right? CC: No I didn't, I didn't live there, I just
worked there in San Francisco, recording. That was when I was in the Concord years,
when I was with Concord Jazz. And I did a lot of work out there and stayed
there, two weeks at a time, that type of thing. But I've always been, I've always lived around
that area, the Cincinnati area. I was planning on moving to New York, and
Benny talked me out of it - Benny Goodman talked me out of it. He had said, "I hear you want to move to New
York, and why" he says. I said, "Well that's the thing to do." He says, "Not anymore, not necessarily," he
says, "you live 35 minutes from an international airport in Cincinnati, and most of the gigs
that you get, overseas and east coast and west coast, you get on an airplane and go,
so why move to New York?" Talked me right out of it. I'm glad he did. MR: Yeah. Well he knew. He lived right there. How did that gig come about with him? CC: Really, Jack Sheldon was probably more
responsible for me getting a gig with him than anybody, I'm sure. I'd played at a jazz club in Cincinnati, a
local club, a house band, a house trio. I had the band once in a while or I played
with somebody, with a co-op band, a quartet type thing. And we had a lot of, we would import names,
you know big jazz names and everything. And Sheldon was one of them that came in quite
a bit to do a little comedy routine and his playing and everything. And as it turned out Sheldon and Goodman were
very good friends. Goodman really liked him, really liked him,
because he was funny or something. And he asked Sheldon, he said, "I'm going
to go on a tour overseas, and I need a guitar player." And Jack recommended me. So Goodman's secretary, Muriel - what was
her last name? [Zuckerman]
CC: Zuckerman. Muriel Zuckerman. And she called me, I was living in Mount Adams
in my bachelor pad, that was before Phoebe and I, and so one morning about ten o'clock
she calls and says, "I'm with Benny Goodman's office, and we were wondering if you would
want to - we'll send you a ticket and you come out and play a gig with him up in Dearborn,
Michigan" I think it was. And I thought at first it was one of these
things, you know, I said, "Yeah, yeah, sure." She said, "I'm serious, I'm serious." And then I finally realized that she was on
the square and I says, "Absolutely," I said, "I'll do it." I figured that I couldn't miss that opportunity,
even if it was just a one-shot deal. So it turned out all right. And he said well you're hired if you want
to do it, and I said okay. MR: So in a sense it was an audition. CC: Yeah, in a sense it was. The gig up in Dearborn was for some kind of
a Ford party, you know, the Ford Motor Company party, some kind of thing. And it worked out good. MR: Do you remember who else was on that gig? CC: Yeah. It was John Bunch played piano, let's see,
Connie Kaye, because that was when MJQ wasn't happening for a while. As a matter of fact Connie Kaye played almost
all the time that I was with him too, you know both of us were together at the same
time. And who was on bass, I've forgotten now. I think it was Knobby Totah. Do you remember him? MR: I don't remember that name. CC: Knobby Totah, T-O-T-A-H, he used to play
quite a bit with Johnny Smith, on some of his old recordings, Royal Roost I think it
was, and that was about it. Let's see, Warren Vache, he was on, and later
on Scott Hamilton played quite a bit. It was a good quintet, very good. MR: Now in that kind of situation, did he
have music for you? CC: Um hum. MR: So in addition to having to be a good
player, with the right attitude to please Benny I guess, you had to know all the tunes. CC: Yeah. MR: And did you have an idea when you got
on the stand, like what's he going to call? CC: It really didn't make too much difference. He would call tunes that I was very familiar
with, I'd been listening to him for years. That's what we all did really. We would just, we know how he played the tune
and it was like that, it was real easy, it was real easy, like you'd been doing it all
your life. Now the times that I was with him, about four
years I'll say, we probably never did any more than six big band things, you know the
big band things, about a half a dozen of them. The rest of them were all very small, quartet,
quintet, sextet and all that stuff. But with the big band things I had chord charts
and everything that I could sort of read a little bit. But it was easy, there was nothing to it. We knew everything he did. MR: That's the fascinating part about jazz
sometimes, how are they doing that? And you have to have a pretty big collection
of tunes in your memory I would say. CC: Oh, you do. I've had people that are into that, maybe
professional gamblers or something, that would tell me and a bunch of musicians, that you
have no idea how many tunes you know, you have no idea. It's in the thousands, literally. And you're not even aware of it. I know it's got to be true because once in
a while I'll play a tune - somebody'll call a tune or if I'm playing with a singer, that
I know, that I haven't played for years, but it's right there. Yeah. That's one good thing. MR: Does it get difficult, mentioning singers,
that they'll say "Body and Soul" could we do it in A or something. Do we have to? CC: Oh, I love that yeah, I love that. I think there are a lot of guitar players,
they love to play in those "bright" keys they call them, you know the A and the E and all
that kind of stuff. But some of the newer ones, of course that
read real well, they're used to reading the tenor keys and the alto keys and all that. But yeah, I like to play in those different
keys. MR: Why is it that it seems the majority of
standards from the 30s and so forth, are written in flat keys? Do you know why that would be? CC: I don't know, it has to do I imagine with
the horns, you know B flat for trumpet, A flat or E flat for alto, that kind of thing. MR: Right. So when they transpose it puts them in good
keys. CC: Yeah, exactly. MR: Maybe piano players tend to go to the
flats more too. CC: So many singers love to sing in five flats,
which is just a half step away from C and I always wonder, why in the world don't you
do them in C instead of D flat? MR: What would your fellow musicians think
if you took out a capo and put it on? CC: They would say, "What's that?" MR: I don't think I've ever seen a jazz guitar
player with a capo. CC: No. Some of the blues players use them quite a
bit, some of the old - oh one of my favorites, I was on tour with him, I was on tour twice
with, what do they call that, "Masters of the Steel String Guitar" - it's some kind
of endowment thing, arts endowment thing. MR: Right. CC: And John Cephas - is that his name? MR: Yes. John Cephas. CC: And he would do the slide bar and I just
loved him and he was something else. And he would use a capo once in a while, so
he could take advantage of the open keys and everything. But jazz guitarists, I don't know of any that
ever did. MR: If I gave you five bucks, would you do
that tonight so we could get it on film? CC: I would not know how to use it. I really wouldn't know how to use the thing. MR: Well some of the rock players nowadays,
also, they tune their guitars down a half step I think. And I don't know the reason for that. CC: Well I think probably they tune it down
because it automatically makes the strings looser, of course they get looser, and they
love to bend it and then turn it into the amplifier to make that ridiculous, horrible
noise for five minutes or so. MR: So I trust I'm not going to hear any feedback
from you tonight on the stage. CC: No. No wa-wa pedals, and no feedback, none of
that kind of thing. MR: Do you play a hollow body electric? CC: Um hum. A Benedetto. He's a private builder, one of the best ones
in the world. MR: So you counted in your influences, Charlie
Christian perhaps? CC: Um hum. Just about all of the older guitar players. But actually, when I was growing up and through
that phase there, actually my influences were piano players. Yeah, because I wanted to mimic those beautiful
chord things that they were doing, and try to get as close to them as I could on guitar. That's how I learned a lot of chords of things,
listening to piano players. MR: Some of the reviews I've read about you
mention the fact that sometimes you can sound like two people. Does that come from listening to piano players? Trying to do everything? CC: I think so. I think that's because I have sort of an unorthodox
style, on both hands really. I can play bass lines and chords at the same
time and maybe a little melody here and there. It's kind of unorthodox. I use the thumb, which you're not supposed
to do, and the nails, plus a pick and that type of thing. But I think that's right. I think it was the influence of the piano
players, especially Art Tatum, and Fats Waller, the incredible things. I know that I would never do anything on the
guitar like that, but I come as close as I could, and George Shearing, some of the pretty
stuff that he did, and later on Bill Evans, and that type thing. MR: I have a quote here from The Grove Dictionary
of Jazz, and it's talking about you and it says "a technically well equipped, fluid,
and exciting soloist, Collins has forged a highly eclectic style." In fact you used the word "eclectic" when
you were talking about where you grew up. CC: Yeah, the music, yeah. Probably it comes from all that, from listening
to different kinds of music. For instance, in that Cincinnati area, around
through there, there's a lot of old German population, and they love to play, oh some
of the sort of Dixieland and you know the two beat stuff. I loved that when I was a kid, the different
music. What I did was try to, I don't know if I did
it on purpose or if I thought I should for my further education, is try to just absorb
as much music as I could. Because I figured now there's no way I can
put down a certain kind of music if I don't listen to it and see what it is, how can I
make any kind of judgment on it? So I like it all, if it's good. Any music that's good I like. MR: Okay, how about, let's see - Chuck Berry? CC: Well I'll tell you there's some things
he did that I liked. I never was a fan - I was more of a fan of
his then oh the other guy that everybody went crazy about, the guitar player that played
with his teeth and everything? MR: Oh, Jimi Hendrix? CC: Yeah, Jimi Hendrix. I never was a fan of his too much at all. I liked more of the blues, the old Texas blues
guys that play. There was more excitement. And it seemed like they played more of the
guitar. MR: Is there a definition for Texas swing? CC: Yeah I love it. I love Texas swing. I automatically think of Bob Wills, Spade
Cooley, and there was a couple of more of them but those two were prominent. But I loved that music. It had such, sort of jazz roots of some kind. They always had a couple, three guitar players
that could really swing their tails off. And real hot fiddle players that played sort
of like Stephane Grappelli, you know, the real good stuff and all. But I love Texas swing, oh I love it. Yeah. I would play it if I could get hooked up with
one of those guys. MR: That would be fun. CC: There's some new bands out, as you are
aware of I'm sure, some new groups that try to play that music sort of like it was. I don't know the names of them - "Asleep at
the Wheel" or something like that. MR: Yeah. They've been around quite a while. CC: And they really play good. I love it. MR: Yeah, they have a real good singer, a
real tall fellow. I don't know if his name is "Asleep" or what. But he's the leader. I actually got to hear them once, and they
do - pretty authentic. CC: Oh, yeah, I love it. MR: What's it like trying to get yourself
on record these days? CC: That's pretty hard, it really is pretty
hard. MR: I see some body language over there that
tells me that- CC: It's pretty hard because it's a pretty
good taste in the first place to get one together, and the distribution and the whole bit and
all that marketing. So you're going to have to get ahold of somebody
who wants to do that for you, and I've been pretty lucky here and there, there and here,
and of course Concord Jazz really did a number, real good, for a bunch of us. I was on as a leader and a featured soloist
and a featured sideman and just plain old sideman, 32 or 36 different albums on Concord. Of course you have to have some albums out,
on the market, before anybody can hear you. You know they have to hear you, you can't
rely on playing local venues, you have to get out and let people know who you are, that
you're around. MR: And then how do you get it on the radio,
too? CC: That's pretty easy, it really is. Susie and I, my wife is my manager by the
way, she is my manager, she is really into that thing, and she knows, we both know and
her especially, a lot of people at the college stations that feature a jazz program once
in a while, make sure that they have all the new tapes or an old tape or something that
they play, that type of thing, all over the country really. And there's quite a few of them that do that,
that play me pretty regularly on those jazz stations, all of that. So I'm played pretty regularly on that, and
that helps, that helps tremendously to get you gigs. MR: Do the distributors - I can address this
to either of you - are they pretty honest with giving you what you're owed? CC: As a rule. I think they're mostly, well the distributorship
and all of those people, they make money by what's popular and of course what's popular
is rock & roll or heavy metal or something like that. So that give more emphasis, I'm sure, to marketing
those products. I think Buddy Rich once said on Carson's show
that if marketing, in general, all over, the advertising marketing people would give jazz
musicians only one percent of the monies and promotions as they do to country and rock
& roll, we'd be satisfied, we'd be all right. But jazz is not a popular music. And so we're at the bottom of the rung as
far as throwing money into it to promote it. And it's a damn shame, but that's the way
it is. MR: In your career, was there a time, what
span of years would you say jazz was most popular? CC: In my time? MR: Yeah. CC: Probably from the time I was born to - it
seems like it started petering out in the 50s, somewhere in the 50s, we had to scuffle
around. Of course there was a lot of bars that you
could play, you know, cocktail lounges and all that, you could play some pretty nice,
easy, light jazz. But it started petering out, especially around
1960, with more takeover from rock & roll. Of course country's always been there. Everybody loves country music it seems like. But it started getting pretty rough around
the 60s. About 1960. MR: It's kind of interesting when you listen
to some of the early rock & roll records, I notice Chuck Berry especially, is that he
was moving into a rock & roll thing but the guys behind him were still playing swing. And there was this kind of bumpy transition. CC: Yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of those guys played the straight ahead
rhythm & blues, which I still like, you know the organ trios and all that I think really
swing and it really sounds good. And they were sort of into that. Connie Kaye as a matter of fact, when he was
younger, he played with the R&B bands quite a bit. MR: Connie Kaye, no kidding. CC: Yeah, with the back beat, the heavy back
beat and all that stuff and Honky Tonk and whatever, some of those people. But they did change it to this other stuff,
whatever it is, you were saying Chuck Berry's sidemen were changing the way they played. I don't know, rock & roll, I just really can't
- I don't hate it, I'm just anti it. MR: In mentioning Connie Kaye and that Goodman
gig, it makes me think that Goodman was one of the first fellows to have an integrated
band of any note. What's your take on the racial balance in
music today, or, do you have any views on that? CC: In all music? MR: Well I'm talking jazz mostly. CC: Jazz mostly? It's good and healthy I think because - I
don't know - like a venue like this, and this type of jazz, which I sort of call mainstream
I think, maybe that's a good term, and there's so many of us around my age, maybe a little
younger or a little older, black and white, that play and love that kind of music. But there is a separation I think, of sorts. There are venues where you have, they'll call
them jazz festivals or something, and it's really more pop, it's more of a pop thing
than jazz, there's not too much jazz, I don't think, that's played. For instance if Toni Tennille and some of
those singers that sing pop tunes, I mean standards, ballads, it's pretty and it's nice
but it really doesn't come off with that feeling. I've got to hear Rosemary Clooney sing it
- I'd rather hear, you know, Sarah sing it, or Ella, and that type of thing, than some
of those, because they don't know how to treat it. But I think it's pretty healthy. And at these festivals, at different festivals
around the country, around the world really, give all of us a chance to get together and
maybe haven't seen each other or played with each other for a year or two years, and it's
like a real good party. MR: It's an interesting and fortunate phenomena
I think, that these things exist, for the musicians. And I do notice that the audience in most
of them is usually mostly white. CC: Yeah, mostly white. Yeah, they are. And I don't really know why. I really don't know why. I imagine that there's several views on it,
but I really can't put a finger on it. I really don't know why that is. MR: Well I'm glad to see that there's some
talented younger players that are basically playing what we'll call mainstream, you know,
Harry Allen and those fellows, and keeping that alive. CC: Yeah. I know we have an excellent school in Cincinnati,
The Cincinnati Conservatory of Music, it's pretty well known all over the country. And I'm really delighted to see maybe two
or three top notch, even if it's only two or three, come out of there a year, that can
really play, I mean really are good players. It's very rewarding to see that. It means that jazz is not dead, and it never
will be, it never will be. Not with that kind of thing going on. MR: Well the whole education thing is an interesting
thing to look at. You know there is some great teaching going
on. I hope they have places to play. CC: Yes, when they get finished with their
education. Remember, it hasn't been that long enough
where jazz education was nonexistent in the universities and the colleges. It never occurred. It wasn't there. If you wanted to take some guitar lessons,
it was classical. And even then it was sort of thin, you know,
the guitar, what's that? That's Roy Rogers out on the plains or something
like that. But it's really gratifying to see, there are
two exceptional young men in the Cincinnati area that are really playing very good guitar,
really good. And one of them is only 21. Andy is only, what, 21 I think. Oh is he 23? How'd that happen? So it's really nice to see that coming out. It makes it all worth while. MR: Well your most recent - is it "Ohio Style"
- is that your most recent record? CC: As a leader it is. The other, a couple more as a co-leader, let's
see I'm on a thing called "Tenderly," what label do they call that? I think it's an independent type owned thing. And oh I did that tribute to Wes Montgomery
thing with a whole bunch of us, a whole bunch of guitar players did a tribute to Wes Montgomery. That was released in Tokyo long before it
was released over here - about a year or so, before it was released over here. That was really the last thing major that
I did and this other one, "Tenderly," and then I've got a thing coming up - how is that? [Bob Bernard's thing]
CC: Oh yeah, that's the other - yeah. There's an Australian trumpet player, Bob
Bernard? And I did a recording with him, less than
two years ago in New York. I think that was on a Canadian label, oh I
forgot the name of it, Sackville or something like that? MR: Sackville. CC: Sackville it was, yeah. It was on Sackville. MR: Well with the "Ohio" album, you used your
own group? It sounded great too. CC: Yeah that was a real nice one. I used the quartet that I've used around the
Cincinnati area, and once in a while we do go out as a self-contained group but not too
often. When you get into a self-contained group,
you're talking about money, headaches, this and that you know. MR: Yeah. It's hard to keep a band working enough that
you can tell all the fellows, stick with me. CC: How many is there? Phil Woods. Oscar Peterson's trio. Dave Brubeck. That's about it, you know, self-contained
groups. MR: I have to ask you why "Tumbling Tumbleweeds?" That was clever. In fact, when I was listening to it, I wasn't
looking at it I was just listening to it. All of I sudden I go - what? Wait a minute. What is that tune? And it was an interesting choice and treatment. CC: I don't know, we used to play years ago
at the Playboy Club, me and Mike Moore, Mike Moore is also from the Cincinnati area, and
Ron McCurry, the drummer, we had a trio and played at Playboy Clubs. And we used to play things like "Along the
Navajo Trail" but we'd do it in like six-eight time, you know, real fast, and this and that,
and how would that sound - you know, because it's a great tune, it might make a good jazz
vehicle. And so we did it. Neat tune. MR: It works. It reminded me, you know Brubeck did a thing
on "Camptown Races." CC: Yeah. So it was that type of feeling and all of
that stuff. And then a friend of mine, right after that,
a group recorded that tune and it was real nice. She was a fiddle player. She was a fiddle player from Portland I think,
Oregon or around through there somewhere. And part of those guys that were on that steel
string guitar tour knew her and recorded with her, and they did that thing too. I like the tune. It drifts along. MR: And you have been to different parts of
the world and been to Japan. Do you like playing abroad? CC: Yeah I do, I really do. Once in a while, I've done it very often,
I've been overseas many, many times, and they always, it seems like the venue always gives
you a chance - every other day you have off, which is nice, so you can kind of look around
in the shops and all that kind of stuff. But then after you've been to the same place
several times, it's just gets to be another gig you know, another long ride on the airplane. But I've always enjoyed it. MR: From a practical sense I've always wondered
what you fellows do with your instruments on those flights. CC: Cross your fingers. I guess most guitar players get in the habit
of - oh I loosen the strings and pack the case with all kinds of padding, and tie a
big leather belt around it, and hand carry it gently so that it's the last thing that
goes on the airplane, and the first thing that comes off. And I've only had about one major wreck. Oh, yeah that's right I've had three of them
including the neck thing. Three fixable things 28 years and whatever,
that's not too bad. MR: What's it like playing with musicians
from other countries. Does the music cross border lines? CC: It's a real treat, I love it. There's a lot of excellent musicians all over
the place. England has, the U.K. has many of them. Sweden and Denmark has a lot. Australia has a lot. And Japan is coming on with a few. And it's all about the same, because they've
copied so much of the American jazz thing. The only thing is, it seems that you can really
tell that it's a little bit different are the Australians. It's hard to pin down, but it's a different
feeling. They write a lot of tunes, a lot of tunes
that you never heard of, that type thing, but they fit good, but maybe there is a pattern
or a system or something that most jazz musicians maybe follow, they don't. It's a little bit different. It's something you can't put your finger on. Excellent musicians by the way. MR: Isn't there one on the bill tonight? An Australian player? John Allred or something? CC: Yeah, he's on. I don't know his work that well. I know several of them, but I don't think
I know his work that well. MR: Well you may know better by the time the
weekend's- CC: I'll know better by the end of the night,
or the end of the weekend. MR: Can you think of anything that I might
want to ask Cal? CC: We've covered it pretty good. MR: Young guitar players coming up these days
- I don't know, sometimes I think there's too much music to listen to. What do you think they should zone in on if
they're a young jazz aspiring player? CC: Yeah the only thing I don't like about
so many of the new young guitar players is they seem to think that the faster single
line things that they play, the better they are. And some of them are really excellent. They are very fast with single lines, you
know, like a horn, just single lines. And they've forgotten, and I'll just tell
them at clinics, when I do them, I'll say you guys have forgotten one big thing. You have a small orchestra there in your hands. You have six strings, you have beautiful chordal
things that you can get, and you don't pay any attention to any chords, you just want
to play faster single line things. Don't do that. Play some chords, play some chords. So that's the only beef that I've got about
some of those youngsters. They want to play faster than Pat, you know,
Metheny there, or some of those other guys. They can play lightening fast, but that really
doesn't get it. Any good guitar player, any real good guitar
player can play fast. So what? Play some of them chords. MR: Well those are good words of wisdom. Well it's been a pleasure talking to you. CC: It's my pleasure. MR: And I hope you have a great night tonight
and tomorrow. CC: Going to. I've never played a festival of any kind,
anywhere in the world, that I didn't have a ball. It's just really fun. It's really nice. Everybody gets together and has a good time. MR: Plus your old pal Michael Moore will be
with you. CC: Yeah. He'll be here. MR: That's terrific. Okay. CC: Well it was my pleasure. MR: Thanks for joining me.
