Can you describe your improvising? I ask this question a lot and I get a lot
of different answers. But the thought process that happens when
you're improvising? BC: At its best, and at the level I feel I'm
at now, no thought. One should not be sitting there doing analytical
thought when you're improvising. You have - it's like language. You don't think about the next word you're
going to say, you don't think about how to spell it or what that word is, you just say
it. It's the same for me at the piano. Same for any musician worth their salt as
a jazz musician. You think a phrase and you play that phrase. I don't think, gee that's the third, that's
the seventh of the chord, that's a dotted eighth, sixteenth, there's a whole rest here,
there's a - all the technical things. So understand what I mean and I hearken it
to language because in language you have to know how to conjugate, you have to know how
to speak properly, how to get your ideas across in many different ways. You might say I walked up the mountain, and
you might say I slowly walked up the mountain and then I ran and then I stopped and I took
a rest, I had a ham sandwich, and then I got to the top of the mountain. There's a lot of different ways to get there. And I know many, many different ways, just
as you would in a conversation, but you don't think about it, you just think of what you
want to express. And that's the best analogy I can give for
what happens when I'm improvising. Behind it is a great deal of knowledge and
experience and the ability to listen. That's the most important thing is to listen
to the players around you, or if you're playing solo, to listen to the air. Listen to the space, and listen to what the
space needs. And if it doesn't need anything, don't play
anything. And it's something like that. MR: Wow. That's a good answer. I like that. BC: Yeah. I could of course go into a very scholarly
answer - we do this when we're playing on this form, and if I was teaching a lesson
to a piano student I would go into things like that. But I don't think that that's what it is finally
about. It's finally about immediate expression of
the idea. MR: Do you have to go through a certain amount
of technical chordal scale knowledge to get to that point? BC: Scale knowledge. Rhythmic knowledge. Historical knowledge. Everything. Absolutely. Absolutely. You have to have a full tool box or you won't
be able to build the house. M Woods: I'd like to ask you a couple of questions. You've been saying some things for particularly
for the students in my class I think is absolutely marvelous, incredible, because you talk about
experiences not once have I heard you mention anything that's got to do with music theory. JW: Music theory. MW: Yeah. It seems like the music comes from some place
much deeper than that. Then it eventually will involve your note
choices. CT: You've got to remember, Mike, excuse me
for interjecting this, but you've got to remember that years before people who came into this
field, years before they knew anything about theory or harmony, composition, counterpoint,
etc., they gave in to their feelings. And they were indulging in, for lack of a
better term they called it "get off." This is long before the term "improvisation"
was coined, you know before it was in the dictionary, pertaining to playing music you
know. They used to call it "get off," which simply
meant that the first chorus you played a melody, and thereafter you'd use the melody as a guidewire
to simply superimpose extemporaneously a melody around this given melody. So that's what it became "get off," so you
"get off" the melody. Even then the guys were giving vent to their
feelings and expressing themselves and they would use certain things that would help them
get from point A to point B. First of all the one thing that we teach our students today,
and I'm sure you do too, regardless of how much theory or harmony or counterpoint or
composition will get in their brain, they've got to know when to use it. They've got to listen for when to use it. Or how to use it. But there's a zillion educated fools walking
around the street today. Heads loaded with something they don't know
how to use it, don't know where to use it or when to use it. So this is a lesson that we try real hard
to get our students to understand. Back in those days, they didn't know anything
as you mention about these technical terms. They had nobody around to teach it. But they were determined to give in to their
feelings and express themselves, and "get off." So what'd they do? They played the blues as the main vehicle,
they played the blues, and they played the standard tunes, and then superimposed melody
around it. But on the blues they figured out a good way
to give vent to their feelings is that somebody had to change the melody, even without knowledge,
to figure out, there's the tonic, that's the one; then you go up the scale, one two three,
that's the third, they'd lower that a half-step, that's the minor third; you go up one, two,
three, four, five, lower that, so you've got a tonic, a minor third, a flatted fifth, and
they didn't know then that it constituted a half diminished. They couldn't care less, you know. All they knew is they called them the "blue
notes." "Man you've got your blue notes?" "Yeah, baby I've got 'em down, I'm working
on F sharp now, but I'm going to have that tomorrow." But they looked at them as the blue notes. And right today, you take a class, and you
take your rhythm section or your just play the bass along and tell them to play one note. [scats] Any kind of rhythmic pattern they
want. Then the next, you tell them to take the two
notes, the tonic and the minor third [scats], then the next time, take the flatted fifth
and the minor third [scats]. Now you can't pick out more beautiful and
important notes in playing the blues than those three. Then you go into your seventh. And pretty soon they reach the point where
it's almost - we use this for discipline, too. That's all. Just that one note, those two notes or those
three. Because after a while they begin to hear all
of the relative notes that constitute the scale, you know, and then they're going to
hear the four, they're going to hear the flat five, some people call it the augmented seventh
the flat sixth, the major seventh, the nine, the flat nine, the thirteen, and all of them,
they'll hear the whole scale then. But after a while, for a period of time, they're
going to be involved with playing those blue notes. The blue notes. The tonic, minor third and the flatted fifth,
and they got it. And if you find a cat whose pretty well-endowed
in playing the blues with those three things in mind, he'll listen to these things, all
these things. JW: Yeah. But you sing that thing and play that. And while that's going on, another cat says
hey, let's do this thing over here. [scatting]
CT: Yeah. Now that's after a while they can hear all
that, 'cause then they've got them to take it to what the saxophone has in mind. You can hear all of that. [inaudible]
JW: But muted though. [scats]
CT: Discrete. Any kind of rhythmic pattern they want. False fingering, or octaves or shakes, fall
offs, or riffs or doits or whatever, a lot of the things that are incorporated in the
Italian dictionary we can't use in jazz. They won't express it very well. You can't hardly say to a cat on the bandstand
"Let's play some 'Largo Blues.'" We have some far more descriptive terminology
that we use. RS: You know it's funny because I said I've
done these interviews. I've never been interviewed myself on this
subject. So I don't, you know, I'm just speaking off
the top of my head. But from my own experience it's the less thinking
the better. The more you feel like you're part of the
whole group, and that the music is just kind of there, you're just sort of pulling it out
of the air, the better you are. And I have that feeling when I write too by
the way, which is not that I am really creating it, but it's like the thing is there. It's like you talk about Michelangelo's "David"
I mean it's like the stone is there but he sees the thing. It's already in there, he just chips away
to get at it. And that's the way it always feels when I'm
writing. It's kind of like prospecting. It's like the gold is there. It's like all these great compositions that
have never been written, they're all there, you just have to find them. And it's not like, it doesn't feel like I'm
the one that's doing it, it's just somehow your taste or what you - something unconscious
is deciding what's gold and what's not in there. But that's the thing, you have to kind of
have - I guess - some sort of discrimination, some kind of feeling for well this does something
to me and this doesn't. I think you have to have that kind of feeling,
to decide. Because what one person considers gold, another
person might not. And that's kind of the beauty of it because
that's why everybody plays differently. But you have to have - I guess the important
thing is to have that feeling that for some reason this really turns me on, you know these
notes, but these notes just don't - leave me cold, or this rhythm or something like
that. And it's that kind of when it's working it's
kind of feeling like you're not really doing it yourself. It's not a conscious thing, it's just sort
of there, which is a pretty vague answer I guess. MR: But I've heard it before, actually. Jim: It's the only way. Jean: To be a musician you have to be, I think,
super flexible. Because otherwise, how could you make it at
all? Jim: And also that coincides with, even though
they coined that phrase "jazz" and they refer to "improvisation," - the act of improving
on something, right, improvisation, that's what it is. That's what I explain to my kids you see. I say everybody does that on this planet. Nobody knows everything. So living life is a total improvisational
experience. And those who are trying to fix it so it's
like one-two-three, eventually find out it doesn't work one-two-three all the time. They've got to deal with the law of permutation. MR: Do you find that some of your students
have more success simply because of their personalities? That they're more easy going or willing to
take chances? Jean: I think so. Jim: Yeah, yeah. Well because that's that freedom we speak
about in terms of personal expression again you see. Jean: You have to be fearless. Jim: Yes, yes. Jean: And that comes from having confidence. Jim: Really. Jean: And I think - I don't think you could
teach anybody that. I think a lot of their early life experiences
with their folks and maybe even before they're born, I think there's a heck of a lot to even
deal with that. Because most real fearful people, they can
accomplish a lot in another direction, but I don't think they can be a musician. Not a jazz musician, and be that fearful. It has something also to do with faith. Jim: That's it. Jean: Like someplace, somewhere, somebody
needs a good band? Because you just have to feel like tomorrow's
going to be okay. And then there comes the other side, like
you go up that mountain, and you go along, and you're on the road and you're thinking
next gig, whatever. Then you get to a point in everybody's life
where you start feeling, I don't know if I can do that. And a lot of it has to do with the physical
body. If they've taken care of it or all of a sudden
they get a little twinge here or there, and they start losing that faith. And that's when you see them putting the horns
behind the bed or in the closet, and try to find something else to do. Now I'll tell you, in my experience I've found
that - to be a crucible for every musician. I don't care whether he's classical or Gospel
or a jazz musician. There comes a time when you have to decide
whether you're going to really continue. As a parting question, if you had a word of
wisdom to give to students that you know will be watching this tape, students trying to
make their way in the profession of jazz and understand the idiom, just a parting shot. DB: Yeah, I actually think I have something
pertinent to say. I would advise them that in their practicing
as they're playing scales and as they're playing exercises and trying to improve their technique,
I would take about 25 or 30 percent of that time, or a margin of that practice time and
use it to study songs. And go out and buy sheet music, not just lead
sheets with the chord symbols, but shell out the bucks that it takes and go out and buy
Cole Porter songs and go out and buy George Gershwin songs you know. And look at them and look at the piano parts,
even if you don't play piano. And it takes forever, I mean if you're not
a piano player, but it's worth the effort to sit at a keyboard and hear how those inner
voices move. And if you spent, or if the student spent
a little bit of his time, his practice time, doing that, analyzing these songs by these
great songwriters he'd learn how to construct a line. Because after all these are great composers
you know. And what we're trying to do in jazz ostensibly
is to compose, even though we're composing spontaneously. MW: Instant composition. DB: We're trying to compose. And I think what better way to learn to compose
then examining music by a great composer. So not only would you profit from that knowledge
that you can gain by analyzing that music, but also you'll learn these great songs that
people like to hear played. I've said this before too. I tell students this. Once student said, "Well Mr. Barrett, this
is all well and good, but when are we going to get into the lydian modes and all of that?" And I say, well I said, "Somebody else can
teach you that better than I can," and I said, "I think any knowledge is good." And I said, "It'd probably benefit you greatly
to know about that." But I said, "I'll tell you something. Playing in clubs, I've received five dollars
here and there to play 'Body and Soul' and I've received ten dollar tips to play 'Stardust'
and I've gotten a couple of bucks to play 'Shanty in an Old Shantytown' for people." But I said, "I don't think I've ever made
a dime to play a lydian mode for anybody. You know? No one has ever come up and requested a dorian
mode or a lydian mode. You know? So it's great to know about that stuff, but
I think you'd be better off, you know I'm addressing students now, I think you'd be
much better off and stand a much greater chance to make a living in a fairly competitive business
if you learn these songs and learn them correctly, and you can play them so you make people happy. MW: That's wonderful. MR: This is from your recent -
When you ask a horn player what he thinks about when he improvises, you might get a
certain answer. Is there an answer from a vocalist that you
think might be different? DR: I don't know but I would say that when
I have - it has a lot to do with what the song is about for me you know. I know when working with different musicians,
I did an album called "The Grand Encounter." And I remember any time we did a song the
musicians would always say, "Now what were the lyrics to this song?" They always wanted to know the lyrics to the
song so that they could really, really tell the story in, I guess in a way without words. And that's basically kind of how I think when
I'm, you know - "Lullaby of Birdland" is I think for me, more than anything it's nostalgia. Because when I first heard the song I remember
where I was, who I was, how young I was and what an impact it made on me. And I think that when I'm singing I'm thinking
about wow, I wish, if I were in that session how I would be, what I would do and I guess
that's what that was. MR: Do you find that you would change your
choice of syllables and sounds depending on what kind of music you're scatting over. DR: It really has a lot to do with placement
of pitches and sound. I always look at improvisation, at least for
me, as the words that you can't say, the things that come out of your soul. And any song that I sing I will change the
sound or the timbre in my voice to fit what it is that I'm trying to say. So that probably is true with improvisation
as well. MW: I want to ask you about one of your incredible
skills, and that is when you're singing a lyric and when you're scat singing, you seem
to be able to go back and forth between the coloration of the word and between the scat
symbol with such unbelievable ease. When did know you had such a skill? How do you practice something that is that
spontaneous and that creative? How do you perfect that? DR: Wow I've never been asked that. I really think that it goes back to just the
experience of having - being in these different settings with different bands and musicians
that are really great at what they do, and always feeling more comfortable being hungry. I always feel comfortable being hungry. So I put myself in positions that are, I don't
know, kind of scary, that make you dig really deep and find things. And I believe that for me improvisation is
my soul utterance. So whatever I'm singing in the lyrics, whatever
I improvise, they're kind of one and the same. And I think just throughout the years of constantly
doing this, early on I remember the longest time on stage for me was between songs. Because I didn't know how to speak to an audience. And I didn't want to just like introduce the
next song, but I needed something to do between the songs so that I just didn't feel like
I was naked in front of the audience. So what happened was these vamps on the ends
of songs. And from that came the storytelling. And I think that's where all the - my way
of improvising came into being - telling stories. I could sing it but I couldn't say it so I
would always sing over the top of it so it kind of came from, like I said, experience,
purely experience. Having the opportunity night after night,
going out there and finding something in myself that I didn't know existed. MW: You say you could sing it but you couldn't
say it. DR: Yeah. I can sing it now but then I couldn't. So yeah, I think jazz is a great art form. The endeavor certainly. Of course it's a difficult music. It relies heavily on improvisation, which
is very difficult because everybody doesn't do that well. The name of the game is to do that. But because you are dealing with the spontaneity,
that's what can make it difficult and not sound so good sometimes. So to pull it off you have to be expert or
something, you have to be something, to pull it off. MR: If you play a tune, if you're playing
on "All the Things You Are," have you internalized that tune enough over the years that you don't
have to think about this Two-Five-One and that. CM: Oh yeah. In pretty much all music. You have to do that when you're maybe learning
a tune. But once the tune is committed to memory,
the form, the structure and the elements that make the tune what it is, I don't think any
real pro that's been playing for a number of years really thinks about that. It's pretty much like when you're getting
ready to talk you don't really say I'm saying an infinitive, I'm saying this is a verb,
this is an adjective phrase, you don't really say that. You just need to say whatever it is you want
to say and then you try to do it. And you do do it. So it's pretty much the same way. MR: I like that analogy. Do you teach? CM: Well I've done it. I have done it. MR: You have taught. And I'm wondering if that's something that
would be really important to pass on to a student, not to neglect learning songs really
well because all the theory will not come into play until you know the song. CM: Right. Yes. You have to know the literature that you're
dealing with. So I mean it's just like anything else, you
might go to school for journalism or for whatever, or for what he's doing. It doesn't make any difference what it is. You have two dimensions to conquer. You have the physical dimension or the physical
media that you're dealing with, whether it's music, if it's writing, if it's - it doesn't
make any difference. There's a certain thing that has to be overcome
and you have to get the professionalism and the command over whatever medium it is. And then after that's done then that's not
really the real main event. The main event is what do you do with that
now? What kind of pictures do you take, or what
kind of story. You can go to school and learn how to write,
but okay now after you know the elements of how to write a short story or a long story,
essay, this and that, all right, you know mechanically what to do, when, where, you
know this is supposed to unfold in this manner and climax here and this here. But now that doesn't mean you're going to
be a great writer. It just means you know the elements of writing. It's the same with music. You can learn Two-Five-Ones, chorus, and yes
you should learn that and you will learn it and you do learn it. But that doesn't mean you're going to be a
great soloist. It doesn't mean you're going to be a great
artist. It doesn't mean any of that, because there's
another aspect of all of that that has nothing to do with the physicality or the medium through
which you're dealing, it's got something to do with all that other stuff, all that abstract
stuff that you can't hold or touch, that there's no way in school they can show you. You can learn facts, figures and knowledge. But discrimination and wisdom can not be taught. Is it possible to verbalize what you think
about on any particular tune while you're playing? JW: Well I don't know. These things come to you automatically. I mean sometimes, usually if I'm going to
play something while someone else is playing, I'll try to think of something that I would
like to start, introduce my solo with, and it's something that's relative to the nature
of the piece itself, and something that fits kind of harmonically with what's going on. And I usually try to think about that. And I also think it's just - improvisation
it's like giving a speech or something like that. You have a subject, and your interpretation
of it may differ from mine, but it's still basically the same subject so that's a theme
that you're improvising around. And you try to play something that enhances
it, and also adds a little different flavor to it. So you don't come in and play exactly what
the person before you. You may even extract some of what he played
as a lead in to what you're going to do, so you get that dove-tailing, and it's like passing
the baton in a relay race. You do it smoothly. You don't do this - you're running and you
pick up the same speed as that person whom you're going to accept the baton from or pass
it to, and you get that smooth transition you know. That's - if you listen to a lot of improvisation
in different groups, when they have that smooth transfer from one to the other, that's the
way it does. That's the way it comes off. MR: Yeah. I like that analogy. If you took any particular standard that you
feel comfortably playing with, do you have those sequence of chords memorized in your
head? JW: Sometimes. MR: But not always? JW: Not always. MR: But you can still negotiate your way through
it? JW: Right. There are some pieces that are a little difficult
to come up with something when you're improvising. It's kind of hard to think of something that
works pretty well. So sometimes you'll have something in your
head that you knew worked once before, and you use that as a platform to start off from. I was just trying to think of something. I'll think of some tune in particular. MR: Well I know just before I turned this
tape off that when you got to the bridge of the song you started playing [scats] until
maybe you thought of something else. I mean that's the assumption on my part. JW: Right. MR: But there's nothing wrong with playing
a bit of the melody here and there in your improvising. JW: No, not at all. So at least we know where we're coming from
with it. But by and large my association was with Joe
Viola. He was the head of the woodwind department
there and my goodness I studied with him for a long, long time. A long apprenticeship. MR: Did he use the keyboard to teach you improvising? I've always been curious as to how people
teach improvising, if they don't provide some kind of harmonic set-up. JB: Well you know we would work on improvising
but he didn't teach me per se. He gave me the tools for learning how to do
it, but he used to play the chords, he used to plunk out the chords on the piano and I'd
blow some choruses on various standard tunes, things like that. But learning how to improvise, that's something
- you really learn how to do it on your own. Nobody teaches you how to do it. They just sort of create the settings for
you to experiment in. I think Joe approached it that way. And he gave me the tools for trying to hear
and reach the things that I wanted to be able to play. MR: This is a tough question I think, but
I've often liked to see if I can tell what people think about when they improvise. Are you conscious to a great degree of the
changes as they go by or is it a little more esoteric than that? JB: Well here's the way - I'm not entirely
sure. When I study a piece of music that has important
harmonic material in it, I internalize it. I think this is how a lot of jazz musicians
would describe the process to you, but I play it over and over and over again, both on the
horn and on the piano, until the coloristic changes that are in the tune aren't symbols
on a page anymore, they're inside. I can hear them in their fullness, in their
harmonic fullness, where they exist in a structure. And if I've succeeded in really learning that
tune, the page goes away and the tune is then inside me. And occasionally I may have the chart in front
of me and you use those symbols, the chord symbols as little reminders of what's going
on. But like I said I think if you really know
the tune, the harmony is inside you and also I think the melody is, on some unconscious
level, being sung in my head when I'm playing. It's there. It's inside. And I think that's some kind of guidepost
that exists in your musical imagination at some deep level. I don't know it's hard to talk about this
stuff. But I have a sense that that's what it's about. Because when I'm trying to teach students
and things about it, that's the way I describe it to them. MR: I told you it was a tough question. JB: It is. MR: It's hard to talk about it. But in fact a couple of things you've said
right now, I saw yesterday when you were working with some of the students, in that while they
were soloing you decided to play the melody of the tune behind them. JB: Right. To help them. MR: To help them feel their way through the
song. JB: It's kind of like putting on training
wheels. You know? Here it is, remember? And let them just dance on top of it, to help
them remember where the structure is. MR: You had mentioned yesterday, I heard you
talking about how you feel it's really important for teachers, jazz teachers to be seasoned
performers when possible. Do you think that there is stuff about jazz
education today that doesn't follow that? JB: You know I'm a bad one to talk to about
jazz education, because it's not really my m�tier to even know exactly what's going
on. My sense is that because I was an experiential
learner and because I know what I know, with the guidance and input of a lot of theory
and things like that, but I know that I learned what I learned by doing. So that's kind of my slant on what it takes
to be a player. So I haven't really been in the jazz education
environment that much. My path has not been as a teacher so far,
in the 20 years I've been out there. I'll do the occasional master classes and
things like that, but my path has really been as a performer. So I hope I have something to give from that
experience that's a little bit different. MR: Did you ever have an experience where
you got into like almost an old fashioned cutting session? JB: A long time ago. MR: Yeah. JB: Like I was saying to the students yesterday,
I don't believe that jazz is a contact sport you know; that students should be frightened
into how difficult it is to learn how to play jazz. Yes it's difficult but it's a beautiful experience
if you have this passion for this thing, and when you share it with other people. So yeah you know there's a good healthy amount
of ability in all of us as players and we put it out there for people to see, you know, at times,
but I don't believe the most constructive musical settings come about because people
are cutting each other on a bandstand. I mean it's most like a sports spectacle than
it is a musical endeavor. MR: If we had a nice grand piano sitting right
here, and you sat down to improvise with no preconceptions in mind, how do you start? Is there something you decide to do to get
started? DZ: Usually what I try to do is to get out
of the way. If I know I'm going to have to play, to get
ready for a concert, usually what I try to do is to find a way to clear my mind of other
concerns. Sometimes that will involve me getting off
by myself for a few minutes before I go up on the stand. And if I'm worrying about where did I put
my plane ticket, and did I call this guy, and what time is that gig tomorrow night,
I try to gentle myself out of those concerns. And one of the ways that works best for me
is an internal reminder, to remind myself how profoundly grateful I am to be able to
play. That there is something about that that moves
me so much, I mean even to say that brings tears to my eyes. It's like I do feel so profoundly grateful
to have music in my life, that when I remind myself about this, the rest of these concerns
just - they recede. And then I feel I'm ready to just greet music. And so if I then go out on the stage and there
is just a piano there and myself I just sit down and just wait for something to happen. And something happens. You know? There'll be - some phrase will occur, it will
just play itself. And then I'm just playing. And then I just stay out of the way, I try
not to manipulate the music. I try to honor it, to just listen to it. Where does this music want to go now? What am I hearing? And if I play a note or a chord or a phrase
that contains something other than I was thinking about, an error in terms of where I was going,
I try not to beat up on myself and start castigating - oh schmuck what a dumb note to play - because
you start doing that and then that messes up the next four notes or the next four phrases
and then you beat yourself up for that, and that could start a real downward spiral in
the music. So I think over the years I've gotten better
and better at being just graceful with that. I heard it, sometimes you make wonderful lemonade
out of a lemon. You can take that mistake, turn it on its
ear, do something very interesting with it, so that, and you talk to a lot of jazz musicians
and a lot of them will tell you they've come to love their mistakes on record. Because it really pulled them into something
different. Because they had to react in a different way,
so you'd better legitimize it or work with it or do something with that clam that appeared
in the line. So that's really ideally what my emotional
state would be. Now being human I still have moments where
thoughts intrude, get in the way, I'll be playing and I might be thinking about something
else and I'll have to become aware that those thoughts have become intrusive and gently
push them away, focus more purely on the music. MR: Wow. DZ: You know if somebody coughs in the audience,
rather than seizing on that and getting angry at the coughing, to not even hear it, it just
goes over one's shoulder. MR: Does it help or hinder to think of the
obvious places you could go? If you happen to land on a certain ninth chord
and in your head you know the conventional place for this to go is here, does that even
enter your mind, and if so do you try to ignore it? DZ: I'm not really typically, when I'm playing,
thinking about, ooh here's a C minor ninth which normally would resolve to - I'm not
thinking that way at all. I'm having synthetic experiences where I'm
tasting the music, or musics have colors, different scales and keys have different colors
for me and I'm playing and I'm hearing the blue and the orange together and it tastes
kind of salty and rough, and I'm sort of awash in a lot of different sense impressions. And I'm just trying to follow what feels most
authentic. Again, the idea of where does the music want
to go, not where I want to put it, but where does this music organically want to evolve. That's what I'm hoping to allow to happen. MR: It's a tall order. DZ: I wish I could do it in a higher percentage
of the time. But that's what makes it interesting. MR: No one ever said it was going to be easy. DZ: Right. I mean that's the challenge of this thing.
