Interview with Therapist and Author Esther Perel on Letting Go in Relationships | Audible

hello and welcome to audibles live broadcast with Astaire Poirot we're so happy to have you join us today and have a little discussion we're going to share a couple of sneak peeks around this new series that Astaire has been working on with the audible original team and we're just really excited for you to be here in case you don't know s there she has 17 million people who have already engaged with her content from TED talks you may have seen her from the secret to desire in a long-term relationship and rethinking infidelity she's also the author of a best-selling book called mating in captivity if you haven't listened to it personally I found it really fabulous especially to hear it in your voice if you have it's it's on audible um and also she's been working a great deal on an upcoming book that's coming out in October called the state of affairs and I'm very much looking forward to that and but in addition to all of this working on this project with us and I'm really excited to chat with you so thank you so much for coming thank you okay so um what we're doing today like I said we're going to talk a little bit about the series we'll have some audio snippets to play from the series so that you can kind of get a little bit of a taste and of course what will be best is getting questions from the audience here and on our Facebook fans so please go ahead comment with your questions and then we'll answer those in the second half of the hour so to start a stayer I would love for you to share a little bit about the series where should we begin you know you've written books why why an audio series why why audio so I write books about relationships I lead public conversations about relationships I teach other therapists about how to work with relationships and coaches and but there is a place where very few people ever go and that's what happens to couples behind closed doors and I wanted to see if there was a way for us to invite people in that very private intimate space not in order to be aware and to just see what you know what happens for others but because when you enter there in the antechamber of another couple you actually enter also in your own and you are having basically you have a meeting with yourself through the others which we call in my jargon a transitional object or a transitional it's like the blanky or the teddy bear you know through that teddy bear you have a experience of you but you're projecting it onto the teddy bear right you talk to the teddy bear so you say to your dog it's okay we'll find now nothing's going to happen and you are exchanging with your own vulnerability but through the experience or through the story of another and I was approached by audible it wasn't my idea my idea was I have to find some way I'm looking for a creative project but I didn't want to do just therapy on the air I didn't want to be on TV there I thought there is something about not seeing that actually makes it easier to see yourself if you don't see the others you just you just hear them because then you're not busy with the picture of the other people and it kind of reflects more easily back onto you and so when audible approached me the original idea was something more similar to the work that I had done as a consultant on the Showtime series the affair he said she said you know back and forth and I thought it's interesting but that's not exactly what happens in a couple in a couple it's I say something and you react to what I say and I react to your reaction and then you end up saying the opposite of what I actually want you to say but it isn't just because of who you are it's also because of what I just did that triggered you and set you up which made you then say something to me that made me do the opposite of what you actually would want and even that I would want just because in that loop that is so familiar to all couples these the more I do this the more you do that and you know in the way we are interdependent and the way that that we make relationships but relationships make us and that's what we began to explore with audible we just went into the room the consultation room we began to meet with couples we send out one email we got four hundred fifty up in Yonkers and and we just met with a few people and began to explore and to work very much the way I do three hour sessions where should we begin isn't series of unscripted anonymous one time couples counseling sessions where did you find these people you said you sent out an email or on Facebook oh wow and on my email and unfortunately I just send an email I said I am doing this series I'm looking for couples who would like to be in a session with me from diverse background with diverse issues and and it will be the same as the sessions that I would typically do in my office but you will be recorded and we will change your names but we will not change your voices in a reality TV is not real oh yes away is real yeah and this becomes storytelling because of the truth the other piece I wanted to do was to tell stories that are true and stories about couples that are true which is often the opposite of what you're seeing on social these days you see jolly faces a lot and you see people's happiness because people won't share their sadness is so easily and so I thought everybody's hungry for truth yeah in one way or another and can we open up that space for truth for authenticity for boldness for courage for openness for intimacy so that when you were selecting the couples is was there something about the truth and realness of their story that attracted you guys and then you said right these are the ten couples that we're going to treat or when people come to me they have to apply line and a right stop they write to me their story they actually say why they want to come what they're grappling with and what they are prepared to do to change their situation not just what they expect from me and from there I often have a sense you know the most important thing if you're going to do a consultation style work is what can I offer these people in three hours is this something that we can tackle if this is too complex and then I don't think it's fair I mean that's in general then I'm saying no they need more than what I can do that what we can do here in this few hours but many times I think we can make a dent here this is a place where I if what is the goal the goal is can I have these people together we can create a momentary experience that is different something else from what we typically do with each other and if you can have people come in one way and come out another hmm you've done a lot you've given them a glimpse of what it's like to not be stuck because most of the time people come to us because they are stuck they could change themselves they would do it themselves so we've talked a lot about it maybe we should listen to a short clip so this is from the episode that's actually coming out who is it today I think it's coming out today and so you can listen to it at audible.com slash a stare if you'd like oh every see good thing she's here so let's go ahead and queue that clip and we'll just go ahead listen any picture that I found that was of P&I during that time was torn to shreds anything my wedding dress I had our our wedding vows on tape cut that to shreds cuz that wasn't real you don't stand up in front of all these people make these vows to me and then a month later break them it wasn't real so in that clip you know we only hear the wife and she's talking about how emotional the betrayal was from her husband but we don't actually hear the husband and this can you talk a little bit about this relationship and kind of what insights came from it yes it's a very powerful story because they are together 40 years he's been cheating on her for probably since the day they were married on enough and yet they had a very happy marriage and both agree to that they had a deep relationship a family bond a sexual intimacy happy people cheat and betrayal runs deep and how do you heal from that and so part of what she's grappling with is when you experience betrayal you know you can't trust the past anymore it's one thing not to know the future we never know the future but we generally think we at least know our past we remember it somehow when you have a story like that you think the whole thing was off a fraud a lie you know what what ground am i walking on and so she's grappling with those fragmented pieces of her reality and at the same time she wants to stay with him because when she's in the here-and-now with him she actually realizes that this is the man she's known this is the man she loves and and actually more importantly this is the man who has loved her but he wasn't happy with himself and she begins to understand that distinction it's not easy it's back and forth but she knows it wasn't something he did because of her or to her it was something that he did because of as she calls it his own demons and so part of the session and the relationship at this moment is how how can he live with himself knowing the amount of pain that he inflicted on her and can he change and shift from the feeling of shame that he has about himself to the feeling of guilt that he can have for her hmm and so I love that episode I just gave it a this past week it's so intense and just so emotional and I've actually been chatting about the series in this particular episode you know the last couple of days and it seems like you know a lot of people want to listen kind of as a Boyar but i doesn't feel like when you listen that that's what happens i think you mentioned that a little bit at the top can you talk a little bit about how to listen to that kind of intensity and how to take it in and what you hope that people will take away i mean you know it's doing extremely well the first guest and it's number three i think in the u.s. at this point number one in canada and so i've gone to look a little bit at the comments you know I'm curious how is this received and I was fascinated I couldn't put it down but it's stressful this is my relationship you're telling my story now I know this is my first step I have to go and have this conversation I mean you think at first you're entering into the intimacy of another couple and then you very quickly realize that you're actually standing in front of your own mirror and you also realize even if the specifics are not yours we understand the difference but there's a lot of things that have happened in our relationship for which we feel our partner hasn't really been accountable and I am NOT ready to let go of this until I feel that you really get it that you get how it affected me that and once you transpose it to the issue rather than to the specific then you enter into the universality of the themes and and that's what people are resonating with you are listening to this and you are hearing the voice and the crackle of the voice and the breath and the tears and the joy and and it really reunited me with the power of the voice you know which babies hear here a month before they see it is our first sense that voice of the mother the voice the voice them the sound is really primitive and archetypal and I'm actually so glad to be exploring this through the idiom of podcasting voice yeah it can be quite powerful its story and voice and the voice is breath and sound it's all of those things and I think people are really resonating with it inertia it's never been done and we don't hear it in that clip but one thing that I really like about this episode is you give really practical tips on this gentleman who is having a lot of trouble moving from self focus I've discovered Who I am and I'm having this trouble and I've created this really negative experience for this woman that I love I want to get out I want to get out but also like her need to feel acknowledged and I really like in the episode how you sort of keep having to refocus him actually Ira Glass kind of took that Pacific piece on this American life because you know I I stay with him I help him have the conversation with his wife it's not just talking about I'm helping do it in the moment in the here-and-now I help him be accountable it's so hard it's so hard and then he does it and then he goes but and then I say no but and then he goes and I and then I say no not you can you just really walk over to the other side of the bridge and camp there for a moment just in her experience because self-esteem is this ability to hold himself in high regard even though he is a flawed individual and that ability to be imperfect and to own that is a line from Terry reel that I really like a colleague of mine this and is what I'm guiding him to and so he does it he slips it does it again he sleeps and it's it's theater it's really it's not like you know people just yakking away it's people experimenting and experiencing right then and there and being able to see or hear sorry people being so human in front of you with like just absolutely no-holds-barred it's really these raw conversations I think personally it just you know normalizes things that I felt whether or not they're the same humanizes - it normalizes in humanizes it's very hard to judge the people because you really see them in their complexity with their vulnerability and it humbles us all you know it's that I think is a very nice side effect absolutely let's listen to another clip this is a little bit longer this is from the episode trauma it doesn't like to be touched yeah I love this one oh so where did you learn to live on crumbs he's not the only one with a history oh yeah for sure um I never thought is that though it's normality you always do for others yes what you're telling me is I don't need much I make sure not to need much so nobody can say no true I'm a pretty low maintenance person though though you've got it nicely rationalize you're not getting away with they're wrapped in a I'm a low maintenance kind of guy and after then I meet myself this wonderful boyfriend who is a super high maintenance kind of guy so I get to preserve the title wait this drama is always bigger than yours true very true his history will always be shittier than yours Wow his family will always be shittier than yours he needs to cheat on you for you finally to say I want something now which is great but he shouldn't have to cheat on you for you to say I need more true so where did you learn to refrain from asking wanting needing I think it starts with not wanting to be noticed growing up as that little gay boy if you don't need much you're not gonna be noticed so you can fly another radar I learned how to hunt and fish and be in Boy Scouts and play Little League and didn't do what you were supposed to i absolutely just love that clip I mean it the emotion it just resonates with me so much you know the story of his childhood and how he's taken that narrative of being small and not meeting needing much and maybe people can you know not see me and how he takes that into his adulthood and continues that story I think that's something that's really unique about the series for me is is how big narrative is can you talk a little bit about how that plays out in the series and then also your own work when you tell about your situation or your life or your pain you tell a story you always come in with a story and the language that you use shapes your experience and the story is the language so part of the work is how do you change the story mmm you change the story you change the language you change the state you change the outcome and a lot of my work is that the story that you come in with is not the story that you leave with so he his story became a story of restraint I don't ask for much then I don't have to be disappointed and I find myself a partner who asks for a lot who I need to constantly take care of so I have the perfect partner never to have to deal with my own longings to meet my own hunger because he's always more voracious than me and until something bad happens in this couple this man was willing to live on crumbs and then one day every relationship has a scorecard and then you've done the thing that sure suddenly shifts the scorecard and I'm no longer prepared I want more and it actually is a very powerful embolden amoment when somebody who has not wanted enough finally says I want more of course it's only people who haven't taken enough who worried that they're going to take too much the ones who take plenty don't generally worry about taking too much so now we begin to shift the relationship that the other who's been always receiving and taking maybe this is your transfer for once to be the one who's going to give and you're going to learn to ask and to receive and to trust that somebody actually wants to give to you because they see you and you no longer have to be the little gay boy who had to hide the power of this session for me also and a few and another one also a lesbian couple that we also worked with is that you get very counterintuitive narratives you get stories that you are typically not used to hear because they are so gender specific kinds of heterosexual people and here you hear the woman speak in a way that is just what you generally have learned to hear in the world in the amount of men and here you hear men talk with the level of vulnerability and openness that typically we want to say it's not men it's just women so to debunk some of these gender stereotypes through these stories is also a very wonderful little price it is a little price one thing that I love about that clip too is that moment when the other gentleman is like hey it's not about me and he has this moment he's like but wait it's always about me it's such a little moment a lovely moment where you know that you can sort of start here that narrative changing for both of them yeah I mean there's a lot of tenderness but even just the fact that it's cold you know drama doesn't like to be touched and this idea that you have these two men and you know one of them likes talking and one of them likes touching and and the shift that needs to occur that the one who talks needs to touch more and the one who touches may want to talk more and we don't typically imagine that conversation in this configuration and the tenderness is just melting it melts you this is one of my favorite sessions actually and for sure I just want to remind everybody that we will take questions in the second half just go ahead and comment to write your question underneath this post but we do have another clip that I would love to share this is from the first episode so it's out right now if you want to listen to it I've had better imagine somebody says this oh my gosh it's brutal so yeah so let's let's go ahead and hear that clip did you have good sex with me before we got married yeah did you it was good enough it was good but I don't know for the most part it was same or I've had better but I didn't think that that would be so important before we had kids before we were married and it was totally different I didn't also didn't like the five minutes of sex it was terrible wouldn't you do why did you you didn't plan you talk that's what I need to give him no and he did it because he thought that's what I couldn't get in this troop I I didn't want to be five minutes but he was done in five minutes and gone and then nobody said stay he's tired I'm tired I want to go to sleep he doesn't want to have sex at night he wants to have sex in the morning it can be like a long romantic sex in the morning right why not rent a hotel and so was that to me like when you like are renting a hotel in your city to have sex I just can't do it like you didn't was the girl it wasn't that it was more it was more about just the excitement okay let me stop you a second baby because you don't tell him much he doesn't tell you much let this thing degrade both of you you're a year into the discovery of the affair and so we're not in the crisis mode we're not but the second phase is what I call the insight it is the meaning making why did this happen how did this happen what did it mean for you what did you find there it's a both hand it's what happened to you and what happened to us and what can we learn from it and how did we allow ourselves to enter a place where we both were quite unhappy neither of us really felt the other person is going to hear it is going to take it is going to receive it just like that without instantly switching into a blame mode blame and defense that's the conversation I hear you're trying to have it doesn't really matter if it's around sex or about something else the form is the same once you have this kind of pattern just about every conversation will go in the same direction that I just love that clip and hate that clip so much um the reason why I love it is you manage to keep the couple so accountable and that's something that it feels really different in terms of therapy I've heard or experienced can you talk a little bit about when you know how to jump in or when you know to stay back and how do you make those decisions it's rhomin it's like a question that you ask an artist you and how do you know that you still need another coat of paint and when do you think that this is the right density and that it's a little bit the art of it but it's a feeling I know it's like music when do you know you know that you need to amplify and when do you know that you need to go down from the crescendo into so I think part of the work I do is very much in the here-and-now it is if Tara it is a therapy of enactment so it's what's happening in front of me I see this conversation and I really see two very articulate educated people who are having and have had four years terrible sexual communication sorry sadly and neither of them knew how to get out of it and know how to just say this isn't this isn't good for me or I think I have an idea of something better or how is it for you anything anything besides what they were doing which was kind of playing the oldest stereotypes right and Langley it takes what you can get and she gives it to him so she shoves it to him until he's kind of done and she can you know she's done with her chore and these men decide like you kind of I used to hearing this in 19th century novels you don't think you're going to hear this in 2017 in a young urban educated couple right but yes that's what happens so I'm rather direct I'm a rather active therapist there's many ways to do therapy this just happens to be my craft the way I do it and I am very much in the details and I am much more looking at the form than at the content that's probably the most important thing the form is the way that each person here was more in relation with their own assumptions than with the other it was what with with their own ideas of what it's going to be and how it should be and how it's probably going to have to continue to be and everyone was in a soliloquy rather than in a dialogue and the form is what is the dynamic between these two people how do they avoid each other how does one pursue and want a void how do they clash what is the dance I'm more interested in the dance than in the specific content because the once you see the pattern it doesn't really matter what the content is they they will talk about a lot of things the same way sure because it becomes the pattern of their interaction she shuts down he goes elsewhere that's their pattern and I don't think that happened just around sexuality I'm sure none so now I'm looking at how did he learn to be a conflict avoidant person and how did she learn to dissociate and to cut off that's the pattern it happens to be we're discussing it around sex because that's the presenting issue but this is what I'm trying to tackle it's like the structure of the house not just the crack in the wall yeah one thing a question that comes up over and over again that you ask is where did you learn that yes I love that question and it's actually I'm going to tributary real again because he's a very close colleague and he asks it in three ways where did you learn that who did you see do this and who did this to you hmm it's the tree and it just generally takes you right back where it started it's very powerful is that narrative that you tell yourself yes okay so we are gonna start taking well people have been asking really lovely questions by all means continue to put your comments and questions in the box below but second half we'll we'll start reading some of the questions we've got one here I have tried to have my husband not be my everything but now I'm unsure what role he is supposed to have in my life what is a partner supposed to be and how big a role should they have that is a big question when - or - yeah look I don't think they're for many of these questions first and foremost I want to say there isn't one answer I don't think there is one model of relationship there are relationships that are very much like this with a massive overlap and then their relationships just a tiny overlap like this you see and some couples are very much built around togetherness and some couples are built much more around a respective autonomy so that's to you is to look at you know what what what kind of shared space do you want with him but all relationships are based on trust they're based on support they're based on respect they're based on reciprocity on mutuality on playfulness on on a lot of things so that is generic that you want to that you can bring to every design the particular design is the one thing I would say to you is this I do think that today we often are asking one person to give what once an entire village is to provide we want the same person to satisfy a multitude of needs and often contradictory ones rather than making sure that you have a community of people with different people feeling different needs like in a company I'm here in a company that different people here and everybody has different roles and it is the togetherness the coordination of all these people that create a career and whole and you want to think a little bit similarly when you think about your relationships if she is not somebody you can talk about certain things find yourself your girlfriend talk to her about some of these things then you're going to say but I want to be able to talk to him talk to him about the things that you can talk about and make sure that you surround yourself with a strong network of connections so that you don't feel that whatever you can't get with your partner you just won't get in life hmm what's happen we have another question Kim asked what do you tell the couples after that first session with you yes and do you recommend to them that they continue working with someone else a lot of those couples had other therapies yes some people that I met with wearing therapy and this was a separate consultation they all wrote to me before we met and they all wrote to me after we met so the first thing I asked people after the session is when you go home I want you within the next two weeks sometimes it's two days sometimes it's two weeks depends if I told them to do certain things or not - right where did you take this where did this land on you what have you done with it what stood out for you what's to take away all of that and that is very very important because I need to know if something of substance took place there and then I also say I think you know do you want to referral I think you may want to continue work on this you got a glimpse of it here but in order for this to graft in order for it to really become part you know if you want a consultation way to look at it is that it's often like the beginning of sculpting right I'm slashing away at the gross shape and I'm just creating the beginnings but then what's going to make a new shape last is the chiseling and that chiseling is the middle phase of therapy that's much less dramatic than what often happens in a consultation but it is where people really settle into a new mode with each other and that requires ongoing so I often will suggest and often it was really not meant to be therapy these are therapeutic conversations much more than the therapy for sure and so they didn't ask I didn't suggest we came we met we had a powerful meeting together and it was not meant to be anything more than that all right Kristina asked how do we learn not to be so defensive with each other by owning your stuff basically by not going right back and saying but you I only do what I do because you do what you do or say what you say or make me be this way you own it you take responsibility and you just accept the fact that you are imperfect and therefore you say things you do things you don't do things that make you imperfect and if you can live with that and feel more responsibility than shame you will find yourself more and more liberated instead of saying but I'd said this because you just say you know I know I've said this at other times and I realized that I take this way out of proportion and I am and I can see how I just you know ruin the evening and that's so not what I want and I have to take a look at this generally what your partner will say is something to the effect of I really appreciate your honesty your openness your self-reflection your ability to own your stuff and we'll work it through it's amazing what happens if you're not kicking back but you're just doing this then your partner generally reaches out this is what typically will happen so defensive means you have to accept that you are not always right that you don't have a handle on truth and unreality that is not just one brain that works in a couple but there are two people with two perspectives on the same situation and these perspectives can sometimes be the exact opposite to the point when you wonder where this did this happen with the two of us in the same room yes yes that's actually what happens and so can you tolerate the idea that your partner is experiencing the same situation so differently from you without thinking that that means that one is right and one is wrong and it's always an either/or and from that place you become less defensive you did with your vulnerability because it's human that's just that's what I mean by accepting it's not that it's okay it just is it's not a Western thing I mean you've worked in so many different cultures and I'm just curious because that like instinct to why you're saying sorry so hard I don't know I don't you know what is Western is the idea that jazz meeting has to be put out that you have to talk about these things much more in many other cultures people just you know I'm much more silent about a lot of things so the defensiveness is really the idea that you know when I'm alone know there are people who even when they are alone can explain to you that everything that's happened to them is because of other people I didn't succeed because it's always externalized it's others but in a relationship the other is right there I mean very few people come to couples therapy to say I came to look at myself they come to couples therapy to tell you let me tell you I'm an expert on my partner and what's wrong with that person fix them fix her you know and and I typically will say that your relationship will change the day you take responsibility for that which is yours just yours because then you create a space in between rather than this kind of convoluted thing and and for some people that's very hard to do because because then it means my mother was right my father was right I am a piece of I am NOT a right person I'm sorry to curse but myself I'm just thinking things because people are harsh with themselves I'm worthless I will never be loved and meant to be rejected I mean we live with a lot of negative voices inside of us and I don't think that that's just cultural but where we are meant to shine individually I think divorce is the voice is sometimes sharper interesting on a related note Bella asked what are some practices couples can do to remain present while in conversation with each other it's a great question the best way to remain present is really to repeat what you just heard it is the old strategy or practice of reflective listening you if I heard you well what I'm hearing you say and then you repeat in as close to the way you heard it is this it do I get it a maggot therapy has used this to perfection because it forces you to go over to the other side for a moment leave your point of view leave your experience and just for a minute see the world from the point of view of the other that is very very important breed breed when you start to feel activated and you're ready to just it's this and and center yourself and ground yourself and don't talk actually don't talk until you find that you are more regulated or get up and walk and just walk and just say at this moment I cannot talk but I want to hear what you have to say can you say it again but I need to move because I need I need energy in my body it's that and I contact I should probably put eye contact on the top as well I contact the majority you know what happens is that when people get flooded or if they are activated they look you know men do that far more and far sooner than women because they're sympathetic nervous system gets activated much faster parasympathetic sorry and they just start to look you know you see the body it's like what I can't take it it's like too much intensity so um it's really the idea of just kind of sometimes you don't have to resolve anything in the moment you just want to be able to listen which is the hardest thing to do which is why the podcast which is why listening to come back full circle Victoria asks how do you deal with a resistant client but resistant means what to me fact that they may not want to do what I suggest doesn't mean they resistant to me or they resistant that means maybe you know I think resistant is a very complicated word I some people are very defensive some people are rigid some people are more rigid some people are afraid afraid that if they actually admit certain things it's it's a proof that they are not or crumble so you go for the vulnerability and you just you go for the fear that is behind it you go for the intransigence you go for you go for what blocks it you know it's like what is the block that needs to be unclogged here emotionally speaking that would allow this person to to create a pathway that's the opposite of resistance right pathways two-part question Alana adds any advice for someone who is single and on what advice on what they learn come back to us and specify this for a moment but the the second part is I've had a lot of people ask me I'm not in a relationship is this podcast for me like you know can I get anything on it yes yes because look these days today you are in a relationship tomorrow you may not be yesterday you were not and tomorrow you are we are not living lives in which we have either we are not in a relationship or we are in one for 70 years we are in multiple relationships with breaks in between and I don't know many people who have not had some experience of relationship sometimes very short but everybody lives in relationships and the fact that these are couples doesn't mean that you can't translate all of the relational stuff that is in there to your relationships at work with your friends with your family with you siblings with your colleagues with your neighbors relational intelligence is relational intelligence so please don't think I'm don't have a couple now I'm not in a partnership therefore it doesn't apply to me not at all I really think this is the lens of relationship opens the door on multiple aspects of life it's not because you're not in a couple that you haven't known betrayal or jealousy or loss or sadness or depression and or or joy or love or you know all of that so please I'm very glad you asked because this story is for everybody especially the communication sort of techniques that you talk about a lot it just applies to everything I wanted to pick up a little bit on the the joy in the sadness and everything you just talked about I hear a lot of sadness and a lot of frustrations and the couples and the episodes but I also hear a lot of laughter and I find myself laughing a lot as I listen can you talk a little bit about the role of laughter and and how you feel about that you know it's interesting because I've been asked this question now a few times about the laughter and I think I think laughter in hell is very important laughter is perspective on the situation laughter shows you have some distance love to show that you sometimes can see the absurdity of the stuff we sometimes say or do and I use a lot of laughter in the therapy especially sometimes on very sad things laughter allows you to realize certain things without having it's a way of admitting without admitting yeah and so it's it's another language that is extremely important in storytelling Kristen asks what are the best principles to teach children to help set them up for healthy relationships that's a great question you model with them you know I think that kids are often very surprised when their parents come to them and say I'm sorry I really lost it this morning I was stressed it had nothing to do with you I'm sorry I barked or you know what I've been really sad these days why because my girlfriend is sick and and I know you know lately I think if parents sometimes allowed their children to see them more as human beings rather than just in their parental role and showed them the myriad of feelings that they go through a day if they actually taught their children to ask them how was your day why is it always the parents who ask the children how was your day and how are you doing that good bad but like what happened to you today what was an important thing you thought or felt or saw or experience that becomes really interesting it's like you know I too had this problem once with a friend of mine so a certain kind of modeling on relational intelligence that parents often don't they more in a teacher role than in a hadn't even no more more parallel experience I to this person was really mean to you oh god I had a kid in my class you know I would go home I was like so upset at crawl in my corner and I'd cry that would be often more important for your child to hear than just you're trying to have you kid not be sad tell them how sad you were how miserable you sometimes felt and how you came you know and it took you a long time sometimes to finally felt feel okay about you I think that that is much more realistic and creates a much different connection between parents and children a lot less isolating - yes for sure without flooding your kids I'm not talking about sharing your emotional life with your kids and asking them to take care of you I want to make very clear that there's a distinction there parry asks how can I ask for what I want without feeling needy context I usually put others needs first first of all what's wrong with feeling needy you know I mean where did that ever become a dirty word you know as in what it means weak as mean as in I can't do it alone no we don't we don't wind each other it's a given so you can just say you know I you can also preface it exactly like that you know I have a real thing about being needy but people who are afraid of being needy are generally not that could be needy or it's like the I often find that the worry that people have is not the one they should be having because that's not their risk they're at risk of the opposite they're at risk of feeling that they have to do everything themselves so if you put other people's needs first you ask yourself you know how did you grow up did you grow up with people asking you on occasion how are you doing what do you need what can I do for you or did you grow up in an environment in which this was never asked or did you grow up in an environment in which you had to learn about satisfying the needs of others because only then could you maybe hope that something would come your way because they needed you to parent them in order for them to be able to be there for you as a parent you understand there is all these kinds of scripts in the background this sentence I always put the needs of others first has to be unpacked this is the story of a life this isn't just a story of a behavior and I would want to ask you a lot of questions about that first and from there I probably could tell you more about how you can learn to ask asking is an essential relational verb it's good some people need to ask more and some people sometimes need to ask others more actually we are taking couples for the second season if you want to go to ester for real calm and and join the pantheon of folks here yes I should actually reiterate that we are actually taking now new couples for the next season all types of couples all types of backgrounds and as you know we take out the names it is anonymous we don't change the voice so you share the story and we get to talk together I did want to ask that question so one one of the things is these are very intimate discussions that we're having what was the process to prepare people to be a part of this thing that's you know going national after you write to me my team from audible because this is a real team effort meets with you on the phone and interviews you quite at length about the project separately and and gets to answer a lot of the questions that you may have you decide what we talked about not me you know as always is the case so you choose what you're comfortable with and what you would like to delve in and it's done with respect it's done we tact nobody here is into being sensational it's really about you know mining the human stories not about exposing people and making them look foolish and if you hear the episodes you'll hear that come through loud and clear Jacques asks how can I date in a healthy way where I can be open about my own issues while maintaining ownership of them and not making them you should yeah there you go yeah so Jack you know I think trusts builds over time and it goes both ways you want to feel more trust in order to open up more but it is the act of opening up more that will build the trust and that's a risk-taking so you you gradually I don't know what your issues are but it's about you know you have to believe somewhere that the experience of love is a verb and I learn to love you as I get to know you and sometimes the more you reveal to me and you reveal your vulnerabilities your imperfections your issues your struggles whatever it is I actually find your humanity and I find your courage and that will grip me rather than that will make me reject you and if I do reject you as I get to know you more then that means that I am NOT the right person for you and you will find the person who actually will find you gripping rather than want to loosen to lose the grip if you want in the reverse but it takes time it takes interaction it takes experience it takes risk-taking there is no intimacy without risk-taking it is fearful always to expose I do this in this project - I also feel exposed it's like nobody's ever seen what I do been behind my door and here it is so that you can't avoid because that's part of what creates human interaction and human connection that's life we have about 10 more minutes so be sure to get in your questions if anybody has any more monica asks what communication advice do you have for newlyweds and specific right so here's the the conundrum of the newlywed is we're getting along everything is so nice how can I bring this up now so you don't bring it up in the beginning because you don't want to jinx then you don't want to bring it up in the beginning because things are so nice and you don't want to taint them then you don't bring it up because you didn't bring it up before and then you don't bring it up at all anymore because now how you're going to bring this up you know they're going to be asked why didn't you talk about this for the past six years so um I think this notion of everything has to be pink and rosy in the beginning and everything is supposed to be beautiful and passionate and this is a joke you know you gotta become realistic plus most people at this point don't meet and marry at eighteen they marry in their late 20s come on you kind of have a sense of what you come with you know what you've been challenged by you know the things that are important to you you're kind of sown your proverbial oats before you even go in and in fact the whole capstone model of marriage is I've already worked on my identity and Here I am and you're choosing me is an act of recognition of how good I've worked on it now isn't it so from that is you just say as we embark on marriage you know what is important for you how do you see our life how do you imagine you know what we do where we live if we want to have children or not is our sexual communication and our sexual connection good for you is this the area that we need to strengthen what are the things that come easy to us and what are the things that probably are going to be our challenging zone the vast majority of couples know from the second day on what their issues will be and this is not this is research from Guttman and a lot of other people it actually doesn't change you know in terms of the content so my my advice for you as newlyweds is that you not be scared to bring up difficult issues from the start because you're afraid that he will not like you he will think you're too much he will think this is difficult he will think maybe it's not worth it you will have to reevaluate your ROI it's really interesting that you used gendered he will think about yeah oh you're right okay well very heteronormative it was it was no no I would say the same thing but I think this was a woman's question okay so that's certainly um Alex asks I have asked my partner to consider polyamory and she responds with well if that's what you need we should break up this makes me feel like she's putting all of the responsibility entirely on me and I don't know how to proceed in the conversation any ideas this is a good question because you could replace the word polyamory with you know my partner to consider living in Paris I asked my partner to go by I asked my partner something and my partner basically said over my dead body and and then you go back to your partner and you say you know what let's take this as a different subject imagine I asked that we go live in London imagine I asked that we go live in the woods imagine I asked that we you know and if you're going to answer me from this all-or-nothing perspective this is going to make our communication very difficult because you are going probably want me to be honest but you're also telling me that you can't handle my honesty and you will become somebody who often is a lying invitee as my colleague Ellen Bader calls it you make it impossible for me to actually come to you with stuff so forget the polyamory thing I think we have a communications issue here and I want us to talk about that can you have can you enter in a conversation with me about stuff that's really uncomfortable and maybe we do have very different values and then we need to think but that is as much me as you it's not just I make a decision can I live by your rules or if not I should go look elsewhere this is a warning sign to you and take her up on this but not just in relation to the polyamory forget polyamory conversation for a moment change it with another word and work on the structure all right last question Kate asks how does one find a good couples therapist you ask around you read about them and then you meet with them you meet with them you meet with a few one time or sometimes two it's worth two checking it out and you see if there is a fit I think the most important thing is you can find a lot of good couples therapist but you want the one that fits feels right to you and that is a matter of fit and the fit is their room their accent their style if both of you resonate with them it's a lot of things sometimes intangible things you know a lot of us have good solid training and we work differently do you want somebody who's very active do you want someone and ask the therapist how do you work what is yours what is your way of working with a couple how do you understand what we're grappling with if you were to do a treatment chart here what would it look like do you think you can help us how do you envision to ask questions it's the same as when people go to the doctor and they don't ask enough to the doctor what do you think my treatment will look like you know um if you make a decision for me I want to know when I wake up that it was the right decision you know that I would have made that decision even if I could thinking I was cogent don't be passive there are three things that make therapy successful one is the fit and I am not the right fit for everybody either the better the therapist actually the more experienced the type is the more we know who we are good for and who we are not necessarily the right person for number two how good is the therapist at what they do regardless of the modality that they use to do it you can be good in a number of different approaches it's how good you are in the approach that you follow and the third which is what I'm asking you to do is the ongoing evaluation of the treatment with the people who are in the treatment because then you are engaged in your actual process of change and an improvement don't just sit there and then say they're not doing it for us if it doesn't work lots of people come to me and say I say bring it up and just say to the tables I have a feeling we're talking about the same thing for the last 10 weeks and I don't see movement bring it up be part of proactive and engaged in your own treatment it is true for all medical treatments that the result is much better when the patient the couple you the person is actively engaged in the evaluation of the treatment itself those three items well said so I just want to thank everybody for joining us thank you as they're for being such a lovely guest just a you know couple asks here be sure to follow out herbals Facebook page if you'd like to learn more about exclusive interviews and events this is just the first of many that we're going to host please listen and learn more at audible.com slash s ter we'll be posting all of the episodes there for you to listen to there are four right there and yeah so we'll just leave you right now with the audio trailer in case you missed any of the audio snippets at the top thank you so much when you pick a partner you pick a story and often you will be recruited for a play that you didn't know dish I told her I didn't know it was gonna be like this that once we had a child that I would be like downgraded because it's now like all about the kids what's it like to be someone's disappointment for 20 17 years Todd where should we begin with a stair Burrell is an audible original series bringing you into the office of the iconic relationship therapist as she counsels real couples on modern love you can both tell me all kinds of things and I can listen to each of you I'm married to none of you so it's very easy but you need to reach each other these 10 anonymous couples have chosen to share their most intimate and unscripted conversations I was going in the bathroom and I was burying my face in a towel inviting it and how will either cry frustrated a Sarah helps each couple put words to things they felt but didn't quite know how to say sometimes I treat you poorly because I see him as an extension of him is not here you are here because I see you as an extension of me together we're gonna aim for a different conversation a different exchange okay how do I do I will try to him so where should we begin [Music] you

Channel: Audible

Views: 73,865

Rating: 4.8804183 out of 5

Keywords: Esther Perel, audible, audiobooks, where should we begin?, Esther Perel relationship advice, Sex and Love therapist, Mating in Captivity, The State of Affairs, Author and speaker Esther Perel, spoken word entertainment, couple's therapy

Id: sfyIpV1JJ8s

Length: 65min 37sec (3937 seconds)

Published: Thu May 25 2017