Author and psychotherapist Esther Perel on boundaries tech has created in our relationships | SXSW

[Music] a patient that she said she's gone anytime you wanna just call me [Music] welcome welcome everybody to the deep end I'm Mossad circuit I'm the deputy editor at curbed which is a vast media network about design architecture and the places we live I'm super stoked to introduce our next session which is with Kara Swisher who is as you all very likely know the co-founder and executive editor at recode she's gonna be joined in conversation today with Esther Perel who is an author and psychotherapist and they're gonna be talking about how tech effects our relationships so that is platonic romantic and business relationships super stoked to have them here today before we begin please do make sure to silence your cellphone's even though we're gonna be talking about tech we don't need to get meta with hearing sounds go off as they speak and yeah I'm gonna let them take it away thanks so much [Applause] [Music] [Applause] you married to a southern man they call it what do they call it the South do your American voice for us please yes sir okay fantastic I was telling you she's lucky we don't call her SC which is sorry to all the Aussies in the house but it is so we're gonna talk about a lot of things we're gonna focus obviously on today because there has a lot of thoughts about this but we're gonna have a wide-ranging interview and I just literally got off the stage with Christiane Amanpour where she is a new series called on the main stage called sex and love across the world or something like that and literally all we talked about were orgasms and so I'm ready for this discussion so and she complimented a stayer onstage quite a bit about the work you've done so let's start just in general everybody knows who you are but talk about what your focus is now and then we'll get into tech you know and questions from the audience and things like that so there's different focus I I just finished a book called the state of affairs right I just yesterday launched the new second season of my podcast where should we begin right which is unscripted anonymous couples therapy sessions so it was the first attempt to bring a therapists work into a digital form I said three years ago that my next subject would be men okay and people didn't find it very interesting okay and and now they do so that's where I'm beginning to I'm creating conversations much of my work is about creating conversations about the stuff that we don't talk about right and one of the conversations that needs to happen is a conversation about power and sex and and the oldest power exchange structure that has existed between men and women but together so let's talk about we're gonna get to me too for sure but let's talk about this idea of you first doing digital conversations tell me how that came about because people have been we've had dr. Ruth we got all kinds of sex therapists around around the globe yeah how did you think about doing that and why that in that format so my transition from the work of a couple therapists working in my practice and working primarily in the clinical world to entering this digital world is literally three years it's actually very short but I had done teleclasses I used to teach therapists all over the world I've trained therapists for umpteen years and then at one point I met with my co-founder with Lindsay Wazowski and I said why don't we want to do something like that for the general audience I can't see all the people who want to meet I know that from the TED talk people are writing to me from all over the world in places where there is no information and that all over the world is inside the United States too and and I think I have I can offer something how do I do it without losing my soul like how do you trade skin for maintain the integrity and so we launched the first webinar from the webinar we began to develop online courses and and in those courses these are the conversations that people are not having right around love and sex in its multiple nuances and you're bringing them on was a very it was innovative bringing the couples on it was that difficult to get people to do that or was so the rekindling desire courses doesn't have life couples to whet the podcast we partnered with audible and the first time we just posted on social and we had maybe a hundred something people maybe more by this but they hadn't heard it right these are not my patients so that I'm not beholden by the confidentiality they know exactly where they sign up for and they often wanted the opportunity to work with me and it was a way to work with me for free and to be brought to New York and to him for me to have the opportunity to work with people from all all all over the u.s. not just urban Americans as well and really cover a diversity of backgrounds in every aspect straight couples trans couples gay couples every color and every class which you don't always get to do that much I used to have it at NYU and I missed that right now we have it's just like over bred New Yorkers yours yes and then I know it's in the thousands it's thousands of people who want to participate and now they've heard it so the for the second season it's people who heard it and then they said I want something like that I want to experience this so it's a very different experience the ones who applied without having known what this was going to become and the ones who applied because they had been immersed in the experience and they said maybe this could help us right so let's talk about that because you know I want to get into the online space the idea because we're going to talk about tech pros and relationships I got a great question online about why maybe there's a lot of sexism because they can't have relationships which i think is a bit of a canard I'm not I'm not clear but talk about the commonalities of what you found because you're getting a wider audience and and and this will get to your new book about it's about infidelity correct right it's about relationships to the lens of entry that it's okay sorry the broad okay so talk a little bit about the commonalities you found getting to this broader audience and I hate to use the term scalable but you've made yourself scalable millions of people write in a hundred and eighty something countries and territories it's very interesting to know that almost more than 40% of listeners are men mm-hmm and they're in every remote country from Chad so it's just like that is incredible because it is a public health campaign on relationships it started out as a creative project but it actually became something way way way bigger that and the TED Talks I wish to say I've kind of you know it's thousands of letters as well so I hear it I see and I work internationally I work in seven languages I don't need translations so I actually have access to diversity it's everything it's a the commonalities the human experiences the major dramas of our life are not different but what changes are the way we narrate our pain the interpretation we give to it what gets weight and what doesn't the extent to which we think we should suffer or the extent to which we think we're entitled to be happy the larger values that predominantly that are dominant within the west individualistic cultures and the more collective cultures is what really translates all the way straight into your sheets so talk about those relationship talk about those relations what do you what do you think the predominant thing you're dealing with now and we'll get to online because I think online has sort of messed up everything or maybe it hasn't maybe from your perspective it hasn't how do you look at the way relationships has changed in the past few years okay by the way my keynote yesterday was on that and it's up on on UT but it's an incredible in a very short amount of time massive changes have taken place people marry for love people tie sexual satisfaction with marital happiness we have contraception we can separate sex from reproduction for the first time we route sexuality in desire within long-term relationships male priviledge and double standard by which they have always had a license to cheat and nine countries still will kill women just for straying for the first time actually infidelity rates have changed primarily because the rate of women has gone up by 40 percent because we have divorce laws because we have economic independence and women monogamy used to mean one person for life today monogamy is one person at a time okay I mean it just says however it's an and if you travel the world you literally see the changes you know along every one of these dimensions of relationships the place of children the number of children the meaning of sex as it associates to children's there are the same when you have eight kids and when you have one or two there is just about no unit that is transformed more in a hundred years than the couple so talk about that where are we now and I want to get to the online part of because I think it has that although the grindr's the Tinder's the all the various things that have haven't made people meet and communicate online talk a little bit about that how that has transformed because I don't maybe you don't think that's the case that relations remain the same no I mean you know there is a conversation about that is the dating different but the mating is the same okay or when the dating changes does it also change the mating right and I don't think that we know all these answers at this moment but what we do know is if I have a choice between two people it's rather limiting in the village I had a choice between two people later I had a choice between six or ten or fifteen people and that was a lot better when I have a choice between a thousand people it's crippling yeah so I'm under one hand looking for the soulmate we're looking today for the one and only that one and only is supposed to be the one that's going to cure you of your case of FOMO you know with home you have never called anybody soulmate besides God now it's become your partner with that is going to fulfill you it's not just a person with whom you're gonna have the basic needs of Maslow not even the belonging needs of Maslow it's the self fulfillment needs that are gonna come on and you're doing it with a romantic consumerism whereby you know you're constantly doing this there is nothing better there and basically the ritual of commitment becomes deleting the apps the ritual commitment meaning I found the one I can stop searching I can delete my app right does that happen no it does not it's not crazy so what does that change in there in the way people relate to each other then in that environment with endless choice so I think that it has created one it does a lot of things but one of the phenomenons that it has created that is very very interesting which is as what I've have come to call stable ambiguity so I meet you I date you I like you I can kind of simmer you you know so we can meet on occasion but I see knowing a few others as well simmering yes simmering okay cooking up achieve now I know it's never in his range I can server I can simmer cooking the other one I can do and I am with you just enough so I don't have to feel lonely I've got this relationship in New York but it isn't go really going anywhere and I have another one in LA and it's nice when I'm in LA but it isn't also good this stable ambiguity is just enough constantly and just enough involvement so that I don't have to feel the loneliness then pervades my life and not too much so that I don't feel that I have made a commitment by by which I have forgot my freedom and that stable ambiguity becomes one very common dating pattern is this a good thing or do you don't have judgment I think that I mean I can see you go no no no it's it's because the world isn't dividing good and bad I think I can say that I have rarely heard people tell me it's phenomenal it feels great I don't write I but they can't really say it's degrading it actually is half-full it's fast food and fast food feeds you but afterwards leaves you with a bad taste because it's not okay to say these things today you know you have to be able to pretend that you can be a happy consumer right with that so what has to change in them I mean do you what do you think of when you look at the Tinder's and their which becomes gamification of dating essentially or gamification of relationships but look we it's been a long time since we shifted from procreative to recreative so I think there's always been a moratorium period the moratorium period today has extended from you know about 15 years of sexual nomadism if you do it with apps or if you do it in bars or if it does make a difference but the fundamental is experimentation without outcome but after that you still most people still at some point want to build a story with a person right you know and love stories are one thing and life stories are something else all right and at that moment but the question is to what extent has the 15 years of nomadism helped me in creating a more committed relationship with whom I'm gonna build something versus it actually has on some small level me up right yeah yeah I'd say that laughs and I think that it's varies by the people by the people I think it varies by the people so how do people look at relationship with couples now once they get past the Nomad period they have unrealistic expectations it goes from a period of such disaffiliated relationships in which you are meant to have it's like a race to the bottom how can I have connections with people with whom I feel the least okay and then go to the finding of the soulmate and the one right and this is the two extremes I think in which a lot of people live do you relate to these people yeah oh yeah no just wanna make sense yeah no they're all totally happy in that relationship I can't see them I dunno we're gonna ask them questions in a minute we're gonna ask in groups of questions but Esther wants to see a theme but when you're but so you blame technology for this or do you think it's just humanity as they just get more tools to find more or should something be fixed about it in order to get people I think technology is a manifestation of the world of options our world of relationships has shifted from a model that was organized around duty and obligation to a model that is around freedom and choice and the choice just keeps getting bigger none of us seem to want to go back to the previous era now but we all understand that the massive amounts of choices that we had have left us with a tremendous sense of uncertainty a chronic ailment of self-doubt and constantly is how do I know how do I know it is the person you know because now I only have myself to rely upon I have to make all the big decisions that used to be made for me and this is actually a cycle logical shift it's not for nothing that people feel exhausted it's just not because they've been swiping swiping you know that doesn't tire you it's the it's the knowing it's the figuring out who am i what do I want what do I need is it really what I need it's what I need what I think I need how happy am I when I need this thing but I know when I find it how do I know I did something that I was looking for but that was just one of Esther's sessions just okay I'm exhausted by that so what do you how do you get to that successful and then I want to talk about the mistakes you Lane and I do want to talk about me too also even though we've talked about a lot I think we need to talk about it all the time until everyone's completely exhausted by it but talk about what then make how do you move into a successful relationship I think that the the the first thing is there is no perfection there is no the one there is a one that you meet at some point we do home you're gonna write a story and you could have written another one and the beauty is that today we can actually write two or three stories in the course of eleven many for that matter and sometimes we read more than one person at a time as well so that's the first thing and then you understand that optimization is not the only model contentment goes a long way and now what they call satisficers as my friend again you just said you know there is something about let me see where this takes me rather than is this it and then go with it and explore yourself and don't think that you know it all immediately just because of the picture or does because of the first day relationships take time there are experiences that are iterative processes I say you respond I check a new response I gauge you I bring in something else it's iterative and reiterative and this is the thing that we have really lost with the digital the digital is flat it's two-dimensional you don't have to see you don't have to sense so and we know that people's communication online is massively distorted they think they are sure they understood what the other person said and all the social linguistic studies tell you they don't know so this is part of what you lose so once you get off the app you meet a person and then the rest is your experience with the person but more and more we have lost yeah I agree it's it's anything my son met his first girlfriend on snapchat which I found disturbing in every single fashion and then they met in person I mean you know now he has although now he refuses to call anyone a girlfriend but that's another I'll bring him in right it's true yeah but no one's a girlfriend like it's I don't even understand it anymore um but it was interesting because I was like you can't really get to know someone on snapchat but he did feel like he had a connection it was an interesting because there are connections there are connections you make online with people that are very rich can be very you know so let's talk about also not just that you that this is a flat communications tool but it also gets in the way of relationships now I have I have an issue with my phone I admit it I use it all the time I like it near me I've had it a lot it's it's not the best relationship I've ever had but it is so people are this gets in the way this idea and you see it around South by Southwest yes it's technology in the bedroom the amount of people the last thing they stroke before they go to bed is their phone and the first thing they stroke before they go when they wake up is their phone so it's really it's a it's a choreography I mean basically I'm here yeah and when I wake up in the morning I do this instead of actually spooning you right and or as one of the my patients recently said you know it's like every night I go to bed and she's on on Instagram in the bed with the NSA I'm lonely I just want to talk to try to connect and she's just like getting lost and zone and it creates a new definition of loneliness you know they talk about loneliness all the time at this it is the public health crisis number one but what they really are distinguishing is that it no longer has to do with being socially isolated it has to do with experiencing kind of a loss of trust and a loss of capital while you are next to the person with whom you're supposed to not be lonely with and so you lying there you know when your partner went to work and stay at work till midnight you knew that they were not there now they're home but they're not really present and what we and we call this in in psychology we call it ambiguous loss and biggest loss is what you feel when a person is physically present but psychologically gone like Alzheimer but the same thing happens when your person is laughing at Instagram in stay aloft you can't you talk to them and they don't hear you and they don't answer you and they're physically present and that is a very confusing experience ambiguous loss is also the reverse is when somebody is psychologically gone and psychologically present but physically gone like when they're kidnapped right okay so pick when they're kidnapped yes like when they when you're in situation right but the point is then you don't know if you need to let go or if you have to hold on right that's why this is such a stressing thing should I call for attention while you're in your insta lost or should I actually just accept that I'm on my own and and you stay and you wait for them to end - close it - turn around - turn off the light to connect with you and they don't and when that happens night after night what do you advise them what do you do do you grab the phone and run what are you doing that's a psychological in this case I basically said the first thing I think I said which wasn't so clear because he didn't say it like that either he just says he the noise meter and I just said you lonely you lonely you know to sit there next to someone because it's gone on then I said to her do you know he's lonely does it matter to you right because I can't imagine that that's actually what you intend to do you know and what would happen if instead of watching what everybody else is posting you actually checked in with him for a moment you know do you think you do you worried that you're gonna lose yourself or anything you just engage in a conversation that is not about blame that allows people to reflect that allows people to take responsibility that banks on their good intention and then you say you're gonna try to read things differently and let's see which one of them works because I don't know what will work better but I can tell you that if you continue this I can tell you where you're gonna end up and what was the response from your perspective it's it's so common this is such a common issue now you know you you look the greatest invention that was ever made in Western civilization was the invention of the sabot somebody understood in one of the oldest creation story that you needed a day off because when you stop it's not just that you take a break it's that you recharge you I you know you restore it like and you build back and when you never stop something begins to happen to your brain that is not I did it this is like couch neuroscience but it's it's kind of out there at this point and you basically explain the same way how do you tell people that it's not healthy to eat McDonald's every day it's a whole education and you basically say it's gonna destroy your relationship right do you want that if you don't I can actually give you a few ideas get an alarm clock when you go for dinner with him leave your phone in your bag don't put it on the table and certainly don't take it with you when you go to the bathroom because you end up staying there 20 minutes right yeah you know what I said and that is the national emergency bathroom lines that's a kind of Instagram instead of texting back and forth 50 times the amount of time that takes just pick up the phone and talk for three minutes and arrange it it actually you know the voice the loss of the voice the voice is really the first thing that the baby hears in neutral we need the voice it's the most soothing things people don't hear the voice call cool you know you and you basically say would you do that with me for a week I am trying to write an article and I would like to see if it would make would you like to be a participant in my study and then after a week they come back and you say did it make a difference and then you say what would it take for you to continue and do that right and then you know most people say make citizens does anyone come saying no I really do like my phone better no no no the the it's actually you know the majority of people feel calmer the first thing is they feel Conger they're not constantly thinking that then it there's something important that they need to be in touch with it allows them to be more present it allows them to learn to self-soothe it it does a lot of things there's nothing wrong with my phone but there is something about basically at this point people are primarily in triangular situations they are rarely just with the person that they're with right so they're cheating on their partner with time yeah yeah so talk about the infidelity look what were you trying to get to I don't recall you said it's beyond that can you talk about what the last book was mating in captive melting in get it I've written in captivity I've written the state of affairs and primarily what I do is I study modern relationships I study also what are the expectations that we bring to relationships how have our mentality has changed and what is the in the dance between love and desire in relationships and particularly I study desire because it is one of the most organizing principles of our Western societies so - in everything that technology does the mating in captivity was about the dilemmas of desire inside the relationship and the state of affairs looked at what happens when desire goes looking elsewhere here is this subject called infidelity it has existed since marriage was invented so - the taboo against it and it is treated in the most reductionistic you know black and white victim perpetrator model something that affects almost half the population worldwide in every model of marriage by more than half you know we will never know because men lie up and women lied yeah men exaggerating they're lying and women diminishing they're lying so we will actually never really know and the questions that are asked at very misleading so I wanted the stories behind and I wanted to create a new conversation for the oldest sin that embraces the complexities of infidelity and does justice to the millions of people who are in the throes of it and in the pains of it so what is the most difficult part of that because a lot of it has to do not just with the infidelity but it's the lying and the hurt and the cruelty a lot of the time that can go with it yes I mean what is so difficult around infidelity like in many other aspects of relationships is that it's two people experiencing one event in completely differentiated ways there's nothing that they can share about it so you know sometimes I am lying to you but I have the experience that maybe for the first time I've stopped lying to myself right and how do I tell you that so the difficulty around the subject is how do you create a dual perspective what did you did to you and what it meant for me and at the heart of affairs there is lying and deception and gaslighting and a breach of trust and a violation and all of that but at the heart of affairs is also often yearning and longing and loss for the person that I once was and have not met in so many decades for reconnecting with a sense of aliveness for vitality for inviting me in a good way you know yes in a good way so we should give Donald Trump a break on the porn star I think you should don't laugh at me Esther no we should I should I get my break on the porn star no okay infidelity is one thing right and this is a different thing which I will let you name okay I oh no I want you to name it you're the relationship expert crest okay okay all right that's a good word so when that happens when you have that what are some notation equation right yeah power trips sergeant massage it on you what I mean it has names it's not you so talk about that what's happening now with the people talking about I mean it was this what happened with Donald Trump happy millions of times and people paid off and kept people quiet and same thing with me too when you look at what's happening now is that very different they the voices of me to the voices of times up what do you imagine is occurring now because it feels like an earthquake in male-female relationships I you know it's interesting because when you write about infidelity you write about consensual relationship right it is really not a situation of harassment that's kind of seduction is one often conflated though yes on mistakenly mistakenly I mean infidelity are generally consensual experiences and they are experiences of seduction there are not experiences of harassment you know that is where they part now I think that there's something very beautiful as in powerful and important happening in us challenging or taking on or take putting on the intense scrutiny the oldest power exchange system which was that forever men traded social power reserved for sex often the sex that they would not have been able to have if they could not compensate which is why I think there's something and and I'll finish my thought furs and women trade ins the power that was available to them which often was youth and beauty and sex for access to the social status and power that was denied to them this has been an old economy and what's important about that to understand is that sexually powerful men don't harass they seduce it's the insecure man who needs to use power in order to leverage the insecurity and the inaccessibility or the unavailability of the woman women may feel rape and men fear a mediation so you're saying these people are insecure the ones that the stories of this yes based on underneath the use of power lies a deep sense of powerlessness and then you manipulate and you exploit the power that you have in order to cover that it's you know it's like the way I look at power dynamics is the way that you play pool if you want one ball to hit the hole it is never that one that you need to kick things are not pushed by the stuff that is linear it's something else that needs to push this thing this is the way power dynamics work what you see on the surface is a powerful man what is in reality is a man that is suffering from suffering is maybe a nice word but you know from acts of and then uses the power available in basically harassment is a form of erotic sadism that's a great way putting it because it's the difference for a just thing but you're not cast him as a victim because I think most people just want to kick on like I do that doesn't victimize the person at all he just gives a more accurate description of what's going on of well you you know of what maybe activating this why would a person you know put you in a situation in which every day when you come to work you don't really know what you're gonna expect right do is it will this be a normal day or will this be one of these complete slimy icky days in which the entire time you want to take a shower right right I think you understand the difference right and the whole sadism is that you don't know right right so what's gonna happen next and then we'll get to questions from the audience what do you imagine happening next with this where does it go is it unprecedented or is it happened before and then it dies down because you're talking about as an economy and you're absolutely right that this is a power economy how does the economy shift the economies have shifted many times I mean for me when I try to understand it and I look at other norms that have changed you know powerful social norms that shifted corporal punishment many people have been even in this room may still have been part of a system that believed that if you get you butt kicked it builds character that is no longer the norm no how do we shift a norm like this and you watch norms gay marriage to get out of my mouth you know for me those are two very powerful examples because it's multifactorial if you don't change it from one place you know for me it is about two things we have done a lot of work for the past 40 years helping women girls find their voice and their power but it needs to be matched with helping boys not helping it is our responsibility as a society to stop stripping both of their emotionality starting at age four mother's first yeah we touch our voice less than they touch our girls we strip them literally of their connectivity of their need for others so that we can instead put in there a making of a performance based masculinity about fearlessness competitiveness self-reliance and all the stuff that we then know has all kinds of deleterious effects just on themselves regardless of of harassment and we if we if we the lives of women will not change until the lives of man changes to right these things are interdependent and so the notion for me that is very a little different where we say they need to be quiet now they this is their time to listen and to shut up no this is their time to finally have the right to have conversations about themselves and about masculinity and the making of manhood and the definition of voids that is pervasive around manhood so that we can create a more true equation you're a hundred percent correct I think it's really it's hard to get because right now in Silicon Valley it's like I can't say anything I have so many other saying that to me chime like stop it you certainly can I've done fear sessions like that I've led a bunch of these concessions from eighty to a thousand people where I bring literally create fish balls and have the conversations about the stuff listen often when women men end up talking like this it's not just that they've never said it to anybody else in the majority of cases they've never even uttered it out loud to themselves and it is powerful and that is for me where were the intersection and with each other and talking about it with each other yeah I just had an instance with my son I was just talking about walking over here and one of his friends did something to a girl that wasn't welcome and his first thing his friends first thing was like I didn't do it that way and my son which I mean honestly I think all as I've said before all men should be raised by lesbians but if it's true he said well you really have to stop treating women badly and here's why and he had a discussion with his friend and I thought that was much more powerful than the woman of course bother trying I thought it was a really interesting so I go into companies and I work on relationships and I work on relational intelligence and I do it with co-founders and I mean this my way is true conversation because if you no longer have rules and set up structures of power and social hierarchies the only thing you have to deal with relationships is conversations and negotiations and that needs to be learned those things are not innate some things are the talking and the way people communicate the way the companies are set up we're much more aggressive I mean they just are it's innate that we learn vocabulary it's not innate that we learn to express our vocabulary to someone who in your presence is having another experience than you right that's true all right let's get questions from the audience let's get three or four questions quickly hands up come on I know your relationship questions right here hey they're just starting from where we are speak a lot in both of your books about the effects of feminism I think on intimate relationships and I don't want to miss paraphrase you but yeah just that you talk about the way that I think that that feminism in society is possibly affects relationships between men and women and that that equality or equanimity is not necessarily the thing that makes for good sex is that fair to say that you in in your books that something you so then looking at where where society is going now I mean this kind of amazing moment do you do you currently see in your practice the way that the either of me two movements are the sort of the see change that's going on you see that trickle down into practice yet or do you have a anticipation about how that might either positively or negatively affect intimate relationships okay just another questions so we can see if there's another right there behind you I have a question um I'm a chef and I usually work in an environment with a lot of men behave with these macho culture that you're describing how do you go to talk about this meaning how you feel without them feeling that you're attacking in any way that you just want to create a better environment for you know for the future generations how do you go and express yourself in a way that it's not that they don't perceive that you're a trend that's to those - okay so what I have said it's not at all something that links feminism to desire what I have said is that sexual desire is not always politically correct and it doesn't always abide by the rules of citizenship meaning that but it is but but when you playing that when you're talking about desire when you're talking about sexuality you want that you can't strip power from sex but it is a play on power that is the complete difference you know everybody is wondering why is it that some people would demonstrate during the day against certain things that they were totally delight at night because that is the difference between reality and play you know we do in our fantasies sometimes want to experiment with the very same things that for the life of us we wouldn't want to experiencing in reality and that juxtaposition is very important to keep in mind you know I want equality in my salary's in my wrists in the in the responsibilities that I get in what people think I'm capable of etcetera etcetera and when I am in a sexual interaction I want to be able to experience a different hierarchy in which there is no more powerful position than voluntary surrender but the key word is voluntary giving yourself to somebody is an absolute experience of sovereignty and autonomy and freedom that's the the interplay between you know feminism in itself has doesn't you know is only an issue when people wonder how can I say this and want that because every child that plays being a prisoner in the garden for example knows the difference between when they're playing nobody would want to be a prisoner but there is something fun about playing the prisoner for example right you know or the firemen of the teacher all of that or whatever you like whatever you you know we don't judge we judge a little bit but we're not gonna say and then the question about how you talk to me i I think that for me when I begin to think about that question it's really this we are born women and we become men from chromosome on masculinity is a fragile identity it constantly has to prove itself it has to test itself it has to go out into the woods in every culture there's not a single culture where women have to go prove that they have now become women and that makes the issue of being the threat so important why is why is it such a vernacular to say how do I talk to them without them feeling added subtract because there is a fragility underneath otherwise you wouldn't be threatening so you are not the issue the threat is not the issue it's the fragility that is the issue and that's why I said probably the deepest egg is humiliation it's the humiliation the word emasculation does not exist in the feminine and neither does the word loser and so how do you talk you talk in a way that doesn't put people down the same way that we want to be talked up to your talk in a way that lets the other person maintain a sense of dignity that they can still have there you can say no in a way that doesn't make them feel that small no to anything and I don't want to do this or that doesn't matter but a certain way that leaves people not instantly diminished and neither women nor men want to feel diminished or degraded by the by the aggression of somebody else but you've got a natural assume there's some moment where you don't sometimes I feel gay Brazoria you're always allowing for that making sure that they feel comfortable and it's not returned in the same way and that if they can feel badly for a minute maybe it's okay because you know feeling bad is fine what I mean is you make them feel under a choice that a problem you just can't it just won't work no but I also want to protect myself right I'm not interested in the wrath of somebody else right so there's a way in which you set a limit that doesn't create an escalation I don't want it sure but my point being is that right now with all the backlash happened rather quickly like two minutes right but she should choose to worry about how she talks versus how they receive and why in the world we have to be so polite to people all the time that's all I know what I mean like so what if people like to play I think that you want to do something that actually serves you well okay all right to get to what you want but it often seems like women and people call it always have to say be forgiving but that's I think that can be taken this way but that's nuts all right we're gonna disagree on that one I used to have to apologize for people being gay and I'm sick of it all right so two more questions I accept it because I don't have a question I just want to thank you because I've listened to both seasons of if you're audible podcast and your insight is so beautiful and and your common sense is just right there and I think really there are two crises going on one is raising young men and boys with a feminine side which is so so crucial and and the whole social media I have two young adult children and the things you were saying about you know turning the phone off and don't let that be the last thing you stroke it's you know I raised my kids day after day after day that you know your relationships are the most important things in our lives and I wish you could be in all of our schools choosing our children to get off their phones I mean they are wonderful tools but they don't they don't build relationships it is hard to this irresistible they're irresistible absolutely all right but we need to teach it thank you one back there Oh back another question right here hello s there just wanted to thank you so much for your work and my question relates to there can be people who particularly men maybe they're the male allies so they understand what you're talking about but what do you how do you deal with you know that hyper masculine people who are gonna see this as weakness and who are gonna be dismissive of it how do you reach them and not kind of create a gulf between the male allies and men who are just gonna see them as as cowards and and it's kinda created an even bigger barrier numbers it used to be that there was one divorced child 1 child of a divorced family in a classroom and so they felt very very different but once it was more than half the classroom it became actually much more normative I used to work for many many years with interracial intercultural inter-religious couples that was my specialty you know and everything and they were the only ones often the only ones in their whole neighborhood well then you feel like you are the the other but once it becomes the number then it then the balance shifts and it for that you need to build the cap at the capital of people who gradually begin to stand up to the other men you know and you first do it quietly then you bring it into the public sphere and gradually it the the volume Rises on your side and diminishes on the other side but that takes a decade for this step for what takes a decade to get that you know once it gets going it can't be stopped that's the important thing every one of those changes that took place you know it's what become what went once was the norm now becomes the stigma mm-hmm no absolutely so I want to finish up no more time left but when you when you talk about that idea of how you do make changes and she's are you you said you're optimistic are you hopeful that that this is a moment it held by so whatever is the everybody's talking about it for sure and social media helps that technology helps and hurts it do you think it's a one of these great moments domestic in an interesting way if I'd make it personal I have been working on relationships for 35 years I rarely went into companies before only if there was a crisis and it really was the cold soft skills the software the soft skills right and I thought what soft about it but now I am I'm like constantly going to work on this subject and in varieties of ways the fact that relational intelligence which implies power dynamics replies trust implies communication implies listening implies accountability implies the whole relationship with the founders in order that is that for me says something shifting that there is no they're interested they understand that you know product performance all of these matters they top matters but there is a whole other reality that has to do with relationships and big data I won't capture that right so even that's how I know something's happening and I'm not the only one there is something about psychologists or whatever you know people who have delved into this thing called relationships that has become essential to an economy of experience and so people want to understand relationships and I think that's what has happened that I see that makes me be positive and I think anything that takes apart that this meant was a system of oppression which this is a system of oppression the harassment thing whatever I cannot think it will not be good you know that's it because I am a child of two Holocaust survivor parents and I know whose oppression I just it's like I went fascism sets in that's why he called the let off the hook right you know I don't know I'm not I know if you see my trailer but I'm not a cow you know it's like I you know it's a great there's certain things that when you've grown up with something it's in your veins in your blood so that's why I am positive because because I I don't mind the roar I think it's very good I'm gonna say the funniest question that Diana get is related to hump if you would advise him in Melania what would you do what would be your first move she looks unhappy I don't know if it's just me the you've been already asked her for her opinion I mean she you know I I don't know a clue about this woman but I have a feeling from the little bit that I've listened to her and some of the introduced that she actually this is the way I sometimes said when you pick a person you pick a story and sometimes you are recruited for a play that you didn't audition for right right and I see this woman like she's in the wrong place it's not the character she wants to be like how the hell did she find herself she just wanted a green card [Applause] and then she maybe have wanted someone with whom she could have an arrangement and everybody is entitled to their relationship arrangement but this this is not a play that she didn't audition for so what would you advise her what would you say right get out no this is this would not happen if she wants to get out she wouldn't come to me yeah and if she comes to me she would be asking me how do I tolerate this for another I hope not six years yeah and what about to him what would you say to him look everyone needs Redemption presumably not him but okay I would say to him you know I'm in a bit about a bit of a bind because when I work with men like you I often feel that I overwork you make me want to say all kinds of things while you're looking at me with contempt and contempt is the number one killer of relationships you have no intention to change because you have no incentive to change because that's what that is what happens to men like you so I'm not sure I'm gonna be able to help you but if one day you really want some help just may give me a call all right then on that note [Applause] [Music] if you could please exit out this front door that would be greatly appreciated [Music]

Channel: Recode

Views: 57,854

Rating: 4.7758408 out of 5

Keywords: sxsw, sxsw 2018, relationships, live, recode, kara swisher, esther perel, work, online work, tinder, video, technology, dating

Id: Kzq9nitEaN0

Length: 53min 45sec (3225 seconds)

Published: Sat Mar 10 2018