The Pitfalls of Modern Intimacy by Esther Perel & Alain de Botton | Founders Forum

what we're going to talk about today is various themes around intimacy and I think you know what's fascinating for for us as non tech people is so much of happiness is related to relationships our sense of fulfillment and well-being is vitally located around how well our relationships are doing but if you go out and you look if you look at what most companies are doing if a Martian said what is what are the primary needs of human beings based on what people are doing in this industry people would go well people are really interested in compressing data in moving packets of information etc you know no they're creatures who want to love and be close and share and be vulnerable etc this is not reflected in the industry so there's a fascinating disjuncture between the things we really care about and the things we've been able to invite technology to help us with there seems to be a real lag and that's one theme that we'll discuss but I want to kick off with Esther because as I said to Esther there's always in the dinner parties of London New York and other capital cities of the modern world there's always an Esther Perel moment and the Esther Perel moment goes like this basically people are so so they've divorced really yeah Wow someone else is going you know two sweethearts who've recently met go well I hope that what happened to us and then a sort of more jaded couple go is the answer and then someone mentions Esther Perel and goes mr. Perot she's got some clues to this area and the area that Esther has made her own like no other is the area of how you could possibly make a long-term relationship function sexually sexual intimacy with love and commitment and children etc this is something that we just find so hard there are no technological fixes yet someone should work on it please approach us for a joint fix but Esther I want to kick off the lack of it yes exactly but Esther can I kick off with that question that everybody wants to know when they come towards you which is what shall I do I'm in a silent cold war with my partner we haven't had sex in a long time they won't tell you that but that they'll say oh wow we haven't had sex in our relationship is fine I don't want get divorced but it's no longer exciting and I kind of am tempted to have an affair but I don't know that would be difficult there's a what shall I do so that's the question that secretly in everybody's heart they want to ask you so I'm going to ask you that and please provide us with what can that couple do that couple what can that couple do so it's very interesting because I was thinking this morning as we're listening to all these conversations about your dreams and about the access and about facilitating all the processes through this technology and an audience Toshi Azzam that I'm listening to in relation to the marketing in relation to the companies and I'm thinking what would it sound like if you were also talking in relation to the third element in the triad which is your personal life and your family's and generally I what I came to mind was this erotic intelligence right there's a word that often I talk about which has to do with curiosity creativity novelty focus presence cultivating the unknown taking risks all what you as entrepreneurs are doing all the time and so when you find yourself completely stuck in your personal relationships you probably actually with know what to do which is pretty much what most of you are doing with your silos and with your companies it's just that with your startups and your companies you cultivate the adventure side of you the side that is willing to meet with your own that is waiting to surprise that sometimes is going to do high risk and high rewards without going but at home we're not stability we want predictably we want reliability we want dependability and we go better border because we say I took the best of me out there and around all the time and I'm putting all my energies and our heritage there and when I come home I don't want to have to do one more effort I actually just want a place that can receive me where I have to do 0 and that's 0 over time becomes redness and that badness over time leads people to acts of exuberant defiance for which the internet has begun mmm well I said what um you know Rimmer Freud's famous comment where he goes where they love they do not desire and where they desire they do not love that feeling that you have that your partner has become mummy or daddy no longer a sexual being why does that happen and what can you do about it so I I would like I would say Freud was very good for the 19th century and I'll give the 21st century version of the same thing which goes like this I think that and you will understand it if I say to you that we all straddle two fundamental sets of human needs our need for security and our need for adventure I need for connection and I need for separateness I need for togetherness and our need for freedom however you want to name it but historically we have never tried to put these two together we had family which was primarily an economic Enterprise and I'm going to make a relevant comment in a minute about that in relation to technology because I think you'll find it to translate to you so family was for economic support companionship children and social status now we still want all of that but we also want you to be my best friend and my trusted confidant and my passionate lover and we live twice as long and that's a long to put in one relationship we have never really thought about this concept called a passionate marriage passion has always existed but it was mostly accessible to men and mostly somewhere else Inessa do you believe in passionate marriage is passionate marriage possible over the long term so I will answer like this there is a there is a sentence that I closed my last TED talk with which you know you do a talk and then you begin to see which are the two or three sentences that begin to circulate and that seem to be the ones that resonate with people and the sentence was this most of us today in the West are going to have two or three marriages or committed relationships and some of us are going to do it with the same person so yes passionate marriages exist but it is not this passion that you have when you meet someone and you're in the lingering space and you're in the beginning and you're filled with the unknown and the unpredictable and the surprised because generally what we want is to have that very same unpredictability at some point become security and reliability and something that I can count on so is the enemy the belief that you know someone the what kills the relationship is the sense that you do know each other believe what kills someone is the illusion that you know what I mean that's what I mean it's an illusion yes if you actually could accept that the other is always mysterious even next to you after X amount of years and that they don't belong to you but they're only on with an option to renew yes is actually do a lot better right so tell me more about this idea of option on loan because people go well we shouldn't mention divorce that would be an enemy of a good relationship but are you saying that the the sense that the other person doesn't belong to you is an important one so even without mentioning the word divorce that the possibility of rupture is important to the Union yes there is well there is no love without the fear of loss simply and you know it because you live in a field that is constantly threatened with love and therefore you give it your best because you never take it for granted but it's exactly what often we do in our personal relationships if you had an economy yeah they were talking before with the passage from an economy of production to an economy of service but the same thing happens in relationships we used to have relationships that were for the production of a paycheck and children and now we have an economy a relational economy that is an economy of service communication connection closeness desire hot sex that service and they have a very different kind of marital economy on which I now need to be a lot more engaged a lot differently engaged and I don't think that it is because I know you I just think that what nurtures love is sometimes the opposite of what fuels desire if the verb that goes with love is to have the verb that goes with desire is to want and you all know the wanting you are a bunch of desirous people which sometimes therefore like at home to only have the experience of having but you know it's a nice thing to have but on the side of the person who feels that they've taken for granted because of it it becomes very unsettling hello mister give some advice to people who might be at the founders forum and tonight there let's say a big dinner or yesterday and they need someone who's very attractive to them they're married their spouse is at home with the kids yeah me so and they feel an intense desire towards this stranger who's in a neighboring industry but quite interesting and they exchange business card but really it's not about business and they're thinking about whether you know maybe and that they can go for a walk in the beautiful manicured gardens and maybe start texting each other and maybe begin an affair what would you tell this person who's had a really good founders forum in that sense I may be heading towards a challenging situation what would you tell that person because that you know that you could around the room beautiful accomplished intelligent striking people who might start to desire each other within the founders forum in ways that Brent and his team hadn't considered Jim perhaps that was always all along what Brenton is tema planning but what would you tell these people you know they've got a couple of kids back home but home is far away a couple of time zones away what do you tell these people well it depends what they're asking me they're asking you I'm tempted I don't tell them I had my next thing is that what do you do when your tenten's what do you do with your temptations I'm not the morality police so if you're asking me how to curb your temptation and Curb Your Enthusiasm I have one set of things to tell you if you're telling me well what should mean what do you believe that people should do I don't have a belief okay what so tell me tell me why you don't well no because I think that everybody here comes with a story with a history you know I had dinner this week with Noel Bitterman do you all know who know it Bitterman is you should it's actually Madison you don't know what Ashley Madison is you all registered you should know it's a very good puppy it's a very successful tech company it is the most important mating dating company to do it is the cheating side par excellence and the Toba the tagline is basically life is short have an affair so Noel says to me but the women right on the side is giving me access to the entire data and n in the wind you know it's the one site where there are more women than men you should know that too and the people write things but I know that if I am part of a fiction and this is what happens when I'm meeting somebody here I'm in a fiction the conference is a fiction and in that fiction I'm going to say things that nurture the story of the fiction I'm going to tell you things I'm going to make it look like what is at home is not so important to me I'm going to make it look sometimes that I am freer than I am I'm going to make it look that my partner is less interested in me that they often are because what I say to you is what is important in order to cultivate that which is happening for me in the moment but there is a difference between that story and truth the very same person who says my partner hasn't been attentive to me for a long time may have a partner who tells me the next hour in the next session I have not been attentive because for five years I got no attention back you know so when you are here if you want to play you probably don't come to me people who want to play don't need a step or else permission they do that very well-known people come because there is a conflict there is a sense that I want but I shouldn't but what will happen what are the consequences what price do I pay do I really hurt someone what you don't know can't hurt all of these mythologies so I work with the conflict of that right what makes one stop if you have the desire if you tempted the first thing I say is it's absolutely natural we are curious we are fickle and we are greedy there's a reason why there is so we shouldn't feel bad for the design I know there is a reason there is a taboo against adultery somebody understood human nature very well I mean they wouldn't be a taboo if it wasn't a major need of ours to read that that in itself could be a sort of relief for a person who just feels guilty at the very thought yeah it could be a you know yes so that's a helpful idea that you're not strange for thinking about this no you can acknowledge a desire without necessarily acting on it or you can act on it up to a point you know monogamy is a continuum monogamy is not this or that right I mean historically monogamy was one person for life and now it's one person one point at what point do you think I mean so know you but what what makes one stop right it's memory right it's memory it's why those of you who have children here remember them when you listen to something you associate there was a talk about productivity and somebody talked about when I was children really happy when they're playing a game with other people he was connecting all kinds of things with children we all know to do it very well there's a certain time a day when you think of them there's a phone call you make because you are here and suddenly their image appears in the mirror and then from the mirror they come in front of you and you connect with them and there are certain things you want to do you won't drive 300 miles an hour because you're thinking of your children and nobody thinks that curbing that temptation is a problem but you're doing it all the time so you're meeting someone it's lots of fun you say aw too bad if I had met you 10 years ago or two years ago or six months ago or you know and then at some point you kind of do this and you bring the other people from your life into your field of vision I said tell me something someone told me the other day they didn't want to have an affair they wanted to know that they could and that it was almost as much fun to hear that someone desired them and would want to have an affair with them as it was actually to go and have the affair how do you analyze that B that's actually a beautiful question that's because I believe in the power of transgression which by the way is the larger term for what you like to call disruption there was another word for it before and transgression is essential to us because we like to break rules because when never do you feel more that you're doing what you want then when you're doing what you're not supposed to that's the ultimate freedom that's what all entrepreneurs Stan and so you want that and the fact that you're allowed to want it and that you know that somebody else wants it now allows you to have a whole erotic experience you know max I'll post the good old math I know you know so well so the very nice line which is that it's our imagination that is responsible and do you think that's a vital safety mechanism of safety valve in many relationships yes yes yes because I don't have to experience it I mean this is what technology is doing to you getting kissed without actually getting a kiss and you're having the full experience as if a kiss has been given or as if you had given one that virtual experience has actually concretize the notion that through my imagination I can live it out without having to actually physically live it out now I'm going to ask you yes I always interview unless more or less completely stopped it's the character trait what would you say to the person who comes to you because you are a philosopher and I am a psychologist and so they come with a different question it's the same question but asked differently about boundaries transgression permission and the explosive nature of desire I think we agree on lots of things I mean I totally agree that we need to legitimate the idea of desire in a relationship so very often couples you know well thank well they let me give an example so typical example is a couple get together and they share lots of things and they have lots of adventurous actually try out kinky things they're really allowing the other person deep into their psyche and then a little bit time passes in a sitting in a cafe and one of them says all the ways is pretty hot and the other gets hit by them and somebody gets hot and really kicks in and they simply go they simply there's a realization that there's a conflict between honesty between saying who you are what you are and the capacity to be larger the relationship is being threatened by honesty and I think that a theme in relationships is what do you need to be and say to another purse in order to be lovable knowledge we thought lovable and I think very often in relationships we set the bar so high you know you can't have any false me you're giving our children when they were their parents but parent has to play a role to the child principally that the child is unbelievably important to day life now the child is very important the most important is the child thinks the parent and other thoughts are the desires are the feelings but when you are in parental the child number one I think we inherit some of that feeling that our others should really focus only on us not only us in mind whereas in fact they remain you know incredibly various their desires of strange Yuliya wonderful and we know that from our friends when we chat friends they are really honest about their sexuality in a way that our lovers aren't I was surprised by in a way how little lovers are able to tell my mother about the sexuality for clear plotting each other and I think that you know Philip market has this line about the challenge of finding words that are at once true and yet kind and I think there is a really big challenge a challenge of how to marry up kindness with honesty and I think some of the relationships are brought down by a sentimental story about how the relationship should be which then D legitimates all sorts of feelings and leads to private anger and suppressed feelings that are so all we can do to show the reality of relationships the more couples has got a little overly about some of the dynamics between them and as it amazed by having an era will be sharing so much the reality what it's like to be in a couple is still remarkably foreign and you know the average you will know this as a therapist working with the real secrets if you compare what people tell you when you're with them with what artists tell us about love in an average novel or in a movie I guess you will say the average novel or movie doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of what most relationships are actually like we're having we have a really hard time I think representing what love really is because it's so much weirder more not for good reasons shameful just peculiar then we kind of normally allow it to we normally admit to so I'm rambling but what else but I don't know I'm actually thinking yeah shall we bring them in let's bring them in so we can have a group therapy session and even though the doors are opening away it's like a cozy room we're confessions can be made and we can broaden the conversation around what it is to be talk about a silence yeah 30 percent of the online traffic is porn yeah I'm really hated in this I'm really interested in the lack of ambition around porn because and the same time you can't really be celebrated in its current form tell you what we've got to do I don't share interested this is some extent is that we it should become better what's worth better for it's not more intense or more practical more black-and-white too erotic it's it's that it's more allied to the reality of our lives which are there are so many things and I think that when you go to porn land you reduce what human being is you reduce what relationships are and there's a lot of work to be done and it's just you guys about so many ideas of how to change the world think of porn because it's maybe some of you are thinking in this Eric is approached as for I am poppy but but it's an area where you know cuz one of things we were discussing yesterday we've chatted what we would talk about is what can tech do to help relationships it can certainly undermine relationships we know lots about how tech undermines relations what could it do to help what would you say are two of them in ways that it supports and two ways that it undermines or one whatever the first two main okay so two ways in which tech helps and undermines I think that it what does it do I don't know I mean you know the standard answer which I don't know if I really agree with is it makes it all so easy so it presents the idea of an easy fun relationship and then there's the hard main relationship sure that kind of and therefore it takes effort away from the hard relationship I'm not sure if I like that answer no I wouldn't I mean in line with that I would say there are two areas where did the easy one is to talk about dating and online dating iMac the you know I spend a lot of time looking at all these intersections but I'm less interested in that then I'm interested in romantic misery and rejection and the rejection with the text one text one delete and you're out of my life and it doesn't matter if we just spend two years together and the level of irrelevance and dismissal that we are meant to be able to bear at this point is often beyond painful but it is not even a space to address is that you're supposed to be able to deal with it most things because you may have done it to somebody else he said so the whole concept of rejection when you don't have to go and tell someone I no longer wanna be with you that you can just end up sending the life that is a hormone that the same thing so that's to me and of course you know people come wrong to a therapist when a being ejected that when they fall down so I more we're more in those trenches at the same time I think that lots of marginality 's have found communities online from fetish communities to communities of interest to to language communities of love I'm talking of particular kind of relationships that is opening up in a way that you cannot find next door to you when you're in a small town and I mean that's the classic example but the notion of really finding like-minded people who think about relationships about sexuality about sexual orientation and experiences in ways that are more similar so that is on the on the other side yeah that's we should throw it open to to you guys I mean what in what ways could tech help and what how does it end Esther I'm from the last century where when I began a relationship I had to go through a narrative down this great story go through some trouble to try to impress the other person but now you talk to button and somebody geo-located leave your cup with you very quickly what do you think the consequences are going to be for the Millennials idea relationship um I would say like this there is a wonderful erotic equation and it goes like that attraction plus obstacle equals excitement you take the obstacle away and the excitement loses its steam very fast it used to be that people beautiful it used to be that people lost desire years into a relationship with Millennials which I happen to be quite involved with it is very fast very fast for a few reasons one is because there is it because desire is to own the wanting and nothing will hone your wanting more than a little bit of frustration along the way immediate gratification confuses arousal and exciting as the his an interesting thing I was talking to somebody who runs a Internet webcam thing with naked people and the most popular category are people who don't take their clothes off is that interesting so nicely the larger obstacle the larger the obstacle the more desire there is so certainly anyone going out on a date should put lots of obstacles in front of them as some people have always known know the concept you're talking about seduction right or the dance the dance of seducing somebody which is basically what animals do when they call it pacing I come but I don't come too much I step back a little bit you come a little forward I think you're coming more but no no you stopped again now I'm not so sure should I move over so that step away where are we going and this keeps me awake at night and it builds my desire on and on and on and it is intrinsic to human nature to experience it like that I think that the more we confuse arousal and desire the faster we will lose desire and that's what you happen then do if you do tender if you're going to do you know everything that's an immediate thing you get a lot of arousal but you don't and it's not good and bad this is the consequence you get so the next thing is if when I'm bored all I need to do is move on to the next person to the next chat then what I don't really know to do is how to be new on location if something doesn't interest me my tendencies to let's review on location yes that's all one should be doing in a marriage renew on location that's what we're driving towards renew on location yeah when they're bored they find something to do in the same place that Rhian gauges them and we engaging is something that we are actually quite losing basically you're the you're not being reengaged you're being engaged elsewhere which is why all of you are grappling with relational issues what is commitment what is no LT you know you all want to disrupt virginity but you want me to be loyal to you but as I are you generally a fan of re-engagement on location I mean do you think that we should that this is something we're not doing enough of and there's a lot of you know it's what friends who haven't seen each other for a long time Journal right and they're excited to do it it's not about what you do every time you've been ill and you know you've been lying in bed and you think your life's thing and then you actually get up and you think I can't believe the world is so amazing and you have a staff and you go and let's mention post again this is the whole of Busan's message that we don't need to go off to foreign lands we need to look our world through new eyes that was his message so I have a I have a very articulate nine-year-old and we often have conversations and he basically says nothing is as exciting as technology and that's why I want to play all sorts of things minecraft etcetera all day he says and I said but aren't you could go to the guard and he says no but because the gardens not as interesting and he genuinely sincerely says you know he says in your generation you didn't have the fun things we have you've now got this thing why would I be interested in anything else and I think that's a real challenge that anything adults have really got a solid answer to yet because they themselves are on their phones or all the time so I think it's partly going to be the answers partly going to be about mental health that these things are really not conducive to this kind of skills that you're going to need to bring to lots of other areas of life that this fun pleasurable thing is going to grow a brain that isn't going to be able to deal with all sorts of realities of adult life so no one's doubting that it it is perhaps the most exciting thing but those those kinds of excitement really militate against other things in your life going well so I tend to present technology as an addiction so rather than saying all I don't really like computer games I say the reason I'm not playing them is because I'm addicted to possibly so we're really you know you and I need to take care of ourselves and watch each other because not because it's horrible but because it's so nice nice in a way that makes other things challenging work-life balance I mean I'm a great enemy of work-life balance as a concept because I think that anything that's really worth fighting for unbalance is your life so the idea that I mean I think that it's okay to be unbalanced sometimes if you have something that's passionate you're you know it would be peculiar to aim for balance you know one doesn't think of so many people that we revere as balanced individuals we see them as deeply committed so I think often that lets us like Miss nomer I think that I'm the question of work I'm not at all an expert on the what is the level but I'll tell you this from where I sit I would say that one of the greatest inventions in Western civilization was the Sabbath somebody understood that there was one day that needed to be different from the others in which you were not doing but being in which you were not acting but reflecting in which you were not going out to the field but connecting and in which you were generally connecting with bigger things than just a concrete reality that is right in front of you and I think that more than ever this day however people want to call it is to become really really important and when I see people who observe versions of Sabbath's from Muslims to Orthodox Jews it's fantastic how their businesses don't suffer it's just the ones because it is why because it's mandated from above and it doesn't require you to put your limit on yourself that is the difference it's the same reason why religious people have more sex than secular people too because it is mandated from above they don't have to ask themselves am I in the mood do I feel like it do I feel good about you know I do it because it's something that I'm meant to do that I have to do it's part of my place here okay I think that what you see more and more and this is back to the children you see to me they're waves generally you see a whole generation of people who have grown up on the computer on screen on their devices and who are completely inventing the art of gathering and the coming together as communities and being together and talking together and engaging with mirror neurons and actually looking into each other's eyes which is still one of the fundamental ways we connect no screen can do that so I don't I think that there are certain human needs like the connecting that are we are wired for the neuroscientists can feast on it but we don't need the sciences to tell us what humanity has always known and we will find ways to do so in which when we have gorged ourselves too much on something we will recreate the cooking the meals the or you know the farm-to-table after we've industrialized everything the slow process after we've sped everything up and there is this kind of yin-yang that goes on all the time your comment on the signal structures of relationships mentioned in marriage and let's say my owners will engineer basically an economic type of arrangement that you know work or inheritance and now all the different technologies and economic factors and women completely being you know now integrated estes as in the economy and everything I mean all the changes that are happening our portion also can include structures of relationships and I mean apparently to the to the question about systems right basically a family is a system and what is the new incarnation of this living organism going to be how is it going to straddle the two most important elements of any system which is change and continuity tradition and not an innovation homeostasis you know that companies do it families do it couples do it monogamy was one regulator of that stability but let's be very clear it was primarily an imposition on women never on men in order to know who gets the cows and whose children do you have to feed it was about Pratley money and lineage it had zero to do with love so we have redefined monogamy and we have redefined exclusiveness and of course exclusiveness means something very different sexual exclusivity when you have been a sexual nomad for fifteen or twenty years before you ever commit yourself to someone exclusivity is not the same when you marry and you have sex for the first time versus when you marry and you stop having sex with others different story so now we are looking for a new switch which you all know which is what is the difference between an organism or a system that is defined by exclusiveness versus a system or a relationship that is defined by uniqueness and all forms of non-monogamy poly fidelity polyamory all of those negotiate nations which is the new frontier if you want the boundary question have to do with replacing exclusiveness with uniqueness not what you can't do elsewhere but what is special between us yes ooh you know what I think about this device is a connection and it can be used whenever right now spare seconds we all have you know sort of reach out to that but maybe our spouse is not available 24 hours a day because you know who is really and so the notion that we can now connect maybe one of a number of people almost simultaneously and be constantly switching of a asymmetric arms race against monogamy and how that kind of works in practice how we're going to make sense of that and then you think about the connecting on the devices the twink for me is it's a fantastic thing to behave anywhere in the world and right I mean it's just you know we've it's the reinvention of the art of writing and it is a gender equalizer on top of it for once everybody needs to talk or to express intimacy with words or this kind of thing but the interesting thing is when you're here and I could talk with you but instead I choose to talk with you what does that say and if I do think that we are creatures of meaning and meaning and relevance and presence go together there are so many situations where basically what we are communicating to the person next to us is you're important but not that important and I have more important things to do and we are all so you know it's like in the conversation we were in before we want to talk about happiness but we are actually dealing with a generation that is grappling with levels of psychological misery that are very very difficult why because the burdens of selfhood are way stronger than they have ever been yeah all of these things of what you do in the limits and temptation all that stuff and work was either governed by nature or governed by religion and today it's all governed by us you decide how much you want to work how much you want to pray how much you want to eat and how much you want to [ __ ] and that's a lot of stuff to decide alone and then we are crippled by the dilemmas and the paradoxes of choice when I run my business I flex into quality yes and when I compare my eye to my boyfriend if I in my masculine word he's not tracted to me and I'm not interested in sex so is that a way of finding that balance it's something that we should be looking to evolve into a grander form of our feminine self and be able to run a business in our family or is there a way I could be the woman is great British most people when they talk about what turns them on that's exactly the way they frame the question what turns me on is or you turn me on when I hate doesn't get turned on when I attend in that other part of me those parts of me that are more masculine forties life I think that this kind of stigmatized generative vision that being ambitious and powerful and on on the go is masculine is just a curse to women this is women have always been in the market in other fields and I will go and why nobody taught felt as masculine it's really becoming problematic plus we are a lot more fluent and we have masculine and feminine in all of us and another person the body of a man born but the question you asked you said is the opposite question I told myself off when and I told myself on when I awaken my desire by or I turn and shoot down my desired by it's not the same as you took me off life and what turns me off the weapons me on is and once you understand that desire is a thing that you and when you must be but what turns you off watch as she done 90% of what you can see is to do with not taking care of yourself being disconnected from your bodies overheating being tired being worried not feeling good about said they all have to do ultimately my self-worth in a version of that and when you talk about what turns you on you have to do in self care so when you go home your issue is not to connect with the feminine per se you will choose to connect with yourself whatever pieces of the feminine masculine goes maybe if you want to name of like that that way when you actually change the labels you will find that you have a much bigger feel when you're not locked in categories which are actually self defining a Fossil Beds for the rest you'll have to book a session with Esther in New York

Channel: Founders Forum

Views: 159,902

Rating: 4.7773438 out of 5

Keywords: Esther Perel, Psychologist, Author, Alain de Botton, Intimacy, love, relationships, keynote, founders forum, relationship advice

Id: BalGq1rDnNY

Length: 42min 30sec (2550 seconds)

Published: Wed Oct 21 2015