"This Is How To STOP Your Partner From CHEATING..." | Esther Perel

when you have a conversation about infidelity it sometimes looks as if you just defined it you could be justifying it and I think that understanding isn't justified understanding isn't justified yes try to understand something isn't a way to make it right and to not condemn something isn't a way to condone it [Music] welcome back everyone to the school of greatness podcast we have the legendary Esther Perel in the house very excited that you're here thank you get back again the last time we had you on was about a year and a half ago and I think it's a few hundred thousand views on the video on YouTube over 100 something thousand on the audio and people can't get enough of you we had you speak at the summit of greatness recently and people were booing me when I had to take you off the stage to get to the next speaker so I'm excited to be back on you've got a new book out right now it's called the state of affairs rethinking infidelity we don't have the copy here which you can see it right here on this card make sure you guys go pick it up the state of affairs it's gonna be a game changer you had a book come out ten years ago roughly and so you've been doing a lot of research diving in and working with a lot of people you you work with people one on one in your practice so you're seeing what's happening at the deepest levels of love pain suffering and everything in between right yes you're constantly in this and you've been doing this work for a long time yes thirty plus years and rethinking infidelity most of us never talk about this right we don't it's like a subject we don't go into it's like a scary thing to talk about but you're saying we should be thinking about it and talking about it more is that right see the interesting thing is that it's not because you don't talk about something that it doesn't exist and if I go and I ask audiences all over the world for the past since 2009 I began research on this book how many of you have been affected by the experience of infidelity about 80% of the people raise their hand and that means that they were the children of parents who were unfaithful all the way the children who were born in an affair in a love story really or they were the siblings or they were the friend that was consoling a broken heart or they were the friends that was listening to the confidences of someone who's in the throes of an affair or they are the third in the triangle it is systemic but the topic of infidelity which has been historically condemned is historically practiced shrouded in secrecy and shame and hence kept very very silent and unfortunately not helpful to the thousands of people who grapple with it so I've spent the last years working with hundreds of couples who've been shattered by the experience of an affair and an infidelity in the US and abroad and I thought we can do better mm-hmm so what's what's the definition of infidelity then or how should we be defining it is it thinking about being with other people is it flirting is it what's the line is the boundary what's the definition so the definition keeps on expanding that's the first thing it is no longer just because you got pregnant from somebody else with contraception today the definition has become is it watching porn is it chatting is it a massage with happy endings is it staying active on your dating apps when you're already seeing somebody more steadily is it reconnecting with your ex's on Facebook it is actually rather unclear and it is often left to the people to define it but there are three major elements that I think make it very deep clearer for me anyway to define it the first thing is Nadine usually is organized around a secret the constitutive element of infidelity is the secrecy when it's not a secret when it's consensual there is a complete different story so just secret is at the heart of infidelity so when your partner doesn't know or isn't aware that's right venomoth yes and of course that today requires you to ask what must be shared and what is private what is the extent between privacy secrecy and transparency then the second element is a certain kind of emotional involvement to one degree or another even if it's hit and run there still is an emotional involvement it takes effort to make something mean nothing so the quality of that involvement with the person with the sex with the feelings that and then the third one which is really the most important one is that it's a sexual alchemy the element of sexual alchemy is not sex we know that most Affairs are way less about sex and a lot more about desire now desire for what desire to be desired desire to be seen to feel important to have someone's attention someone who cares about you desire to feel alive decided to reconnect with lost parts of yourself way more important than the sex itself the kiss that you only imagine giving can be just as powerful as hours of actual lovemaking the mind is the most important sexual organ these treating secrecy emotional involvement sexual alchemy intersecting with each other are the three central elements of what makes infidelity but today that we don't have religious institutions necessarily telling us what is the king of sins it is left to us and our relationships to make sense of this to define it to know where our lines will be with our partners to know when we cross those lines and if it's about thinking if it's about remembering it's about fantasizing while you with your partner if it's hmm it is a subject that is deeply entrenched in our lives and often very difficult for us to to open up and yet we need to because because we need to help people who suffer with it yeah otherwise there's always gonna be someone more conflict in the relationship if we don't talk about it right look the majority of people don't talk about any of this right their desires for others the boundaries they want to establish with each other what they share sexually what is private what is the space of their erotic freedom even in their head what feelings are they allowed to have what kind of friendships do they have with others most people talk about none of this until the [ __ ] hits the fan in most straight couples the negotiation of monogamy is very simple it's five words I catch you you dead right that's it right end of conversation yeah and then when there is a crisis when something breaks out suddenly people launch into conversations that they've never had and they are finally grappling with the level of honesty about this but in the midst of so much pain resentment anger yeah confusion pain rage disappointment romantic frustration you name it like could we do better can we do it sooner can we have the courage to have some of the difficult conversations before we're in the midst of a crisis yeah I love that you talked about I've heard you say this before at a few of your speeches but at our event as well you mentioned how we expect our partner to be sexy and on all the time and be intellectually stimulating to us all the time and to be playful and fun and adventurous and hard-working and their jobs and take care of the kids and all these things we expect so much of them but it's so hard to get everything from one person it's a total party for the tall order for a party - is it yeah it's really challenging so yeah I'm a different person - give us what once an entire village is to provide that's what happens you know you used to have a community and the community had all kinds of people in there that gave you a sense of identity a sense of meaning a sense of belonging a sense of purpose all of this and then you had a church you had a religious do you know you had the the realm of the divine the one-and-only was called God not your lover you know and now all of this has been siphoned into one relationship so when you have an infidelity it shatters the great ambition of love because what does it say you're not the one and only you're not the only one you're actually replaceable you're not nearly that unique you're not indispensable and it breaks you it's a crisis of identity it used to always be painful but it wasn't a crisis of identity where people say Who am I what's what am i this is not me this isn't my life my whole life is a lie this whole thing is a fraud I can't recognize myself or I can't trust not only I can't trust you but I can't even trust my own perception I have lost my own sense of orientation it is a complete shattering of descent and that has never been so acute and it comes because we really talked once I find the one and I am your one this is never meant to happen we've been looking long enough we've stalled marriage or whatever commitment ten years later than we used to by now when I pick you we should be clear of all of this this should not happen but it's still happening more and more it seems like today right look it happens more and more primarily because women are closing the infidelity gender gap women for the first time have also the possibility to choose who they want to be with they have no-fault divorce they do not risk being excommunicated from church and they have probably in many quarters at least some form of economic independence that allows them to take care of them so the now is in the fear of like making a mistake oh yeah of losing everything they used to be the possession of men and they look infidelity has been pretty practically a license for men throughout history all over the world kiona had this power they have the money they have this yeah that's it you know male privilege allowed men to do this with almost with impunity and then we had all kinds of theories that came to explain while men are natural robbers and they are the conquistadors and they're not made for monogamy whereas women are made for monogamy you know the theory Sutent the status quo of the power structure but is that really the case so we don't know if it really goes up because it depends on the definition what we do know is that when it comes to sex men and women lie men lie by boasting by exaggerating by inflating because the social pressure for men has always been to pump themselves up as it comes to sex and women lie by denying by minimizing and by under representing because the pressure for women has always been to protect themselves and they need to therefore minimize organizing Wow so we don't have numbers hmm and the numbers go from 30 to 70% depending on the definition what do you mean by that the numbers of people who see it 30% of the gap between men and women today is 3 4 % it's not not really in this country but maybe 6 7 % difference it's really minor but the interesting thing is depending on how you define it you're going from 30 to 70% Wow 90% of people would say that it do it's terribly wrong to lie about cheating and I same amount of people say that that's exactly what they would do if they were on the other side right you know people are rather inconsistent about that stuff what we know is it hurts like crazy it's a violation of trust it's a betrayal and people need tools how to recover how to heal how to love again and how to trust again and we need to make better sense of why does this happen well why do people do it what does it mean etc mm-hmm if you were advising someone that just got into a relationship in the last month or a recent relationship they just got into and they're watching or listening would you advise them to have certain conversations early on once they realize they're gonna be you know committed to each other or give it a shot and be monogamous with each other would you tell them to start talking about these things even when it's the puppy love and it's the romance time is that the time to talk about it when you talk about it that's that's a fantastic question because in the beginning you want to talk about it because you don't want to jinx it and then you don't want to talk about it because you didn't talk about it before and then you're looking for the right moment to talk about it and then when you bring it up later the person says have you been thinking about this the whole time and you haven't told have you done anything so now I'm already suspicious why you talk look I think the simplest thing for the difficult conversations is to have them be integrated as part of the whole thing when you talk about previous relationships you ask have you been heartbroken have you ever left somebody in a shitty way have you ever lied to somebody get cheated on someone have you been cheated on have you ever made up with someone who cheated on you have you ever been able to you know do you have trust issues about in general you know because of your mother because of your father not even because of your own experiences you know infidelity is a conversation like you talk about intimacy like you talk about other relationship I mean if you go in a business experience and you with a new partner you probably would say what have been your experiences with other co-founders you know what have been your experiences with business partners if you had good experiences it's this experience sitting on the on the top of a bad divorce from before you know in general whoever you choose next is always chosen by default in relation to the one that preceded right anyway so it is right there and then you say listen and this is not because I'm thinking about it or cuz I want to do it it's because I actually want to get to know you and I want to get you and I want you to get to know me then it's a conversation to when you love what is your experience about exclusivity you know many people it's find it is the romantic idea makes that question forbidden because once I have found the one and only and that is the one for whom I'm willing to delete my apps and that is the one for whom I am stuck by looking you are now the person that has so captivated me that I stopped searching that's it my phone was taken care of doesn't matter that there are a thousand people out there you got me you know how am I going to then say to you you know what on occasion I still think about this or that one of my eggs or Agha I have attractions this is normal we choose not to act on them monogamy is a practice it's not a dogma and it's not natural it's a choice it's a practice that we exercise because we choose a certain relationship that we want to be in so i say from the start in an integrator that not we need to discuss right just you know isn't it a normal question to ask to some to you to a new person you know have you been heartbroken that's kind of a different way of saying you know have you and why you know have you ever picked somebody around if you ghost on somebody have you been ghosted you know have you had somebody who just kind of yesterday I had a woman come to me at a conference and she says to me do you think people can change I said how many times he did it once you did it six times what's the story she says it hasn't stopped and I said look it's eating you up at this point I see you it's not that I have to ask you five questions it's eating you up how long two years so but she has a child from a previous relationship and ice and then she said to me he must be suffering from something I said now you're gonna take care of him on top of it you're gonna be the nurse mm-hmm how about you take care of yourself for a minute your entire you're about to have your self-esteem crumble under you at some point you say no no because it's eating it just is like yeah stuff in your confidence or you accept it in your that's your relationship I guess if that's what you choose to be if that's what you choose but she wouldn't be coming to me to say question said to she's like she couldn't talk yeah when you see this you know that you're not with somebody who says I know my man that's the kind of guy he is it doesn't matter to me because I know I'm his queen okay no no we're in a complete different story is she's like you know aching so how does someone regain trust then cuz we're talking about this earlier how do you regain trust and regain open communication if someone's been unfaithful or just hurting them for a couple of years in a relationship and you feel like it's not working you know it's interesting because you're asking me this and yet you have an amazing role model have spoken about some of your own experiences of abuse so you know this question how do you let someone touch you come near you not feel like they're gonna harm you they understand the difference between caring touch and hurtful touch allowing yourself to experience pleasure again allowing yourself to surrender without thinking that while you're not on guard nothing bad is cuz I'm really challenging right okay but it's that same trajectory alright it's like you begin to hope you hope first of all you will in this case your child versus adult but you you you you hope that it's not because one person hurts you that you lose your faith in humanity you hope that you know that there are people who are not harmful that they really are good people that care and love you probably trust with your eyes more open it doesn't have the same naivety mmm and it depends if you're asking me how do I trust you again after you have cheated on me or how do I trust on another people yeah I think it's two different stories what about the person you're in a relationship with look it depends as well because you got it's hard to let go and stuff in the past right so it depends how long is the past if you and I have been together for two years and this just happened it's a different story than if you and I have been together for the past 20 years and we have a family and we have build a life and we have buried parents and we have birth children and we have built homes and we have created jobs and we have a whole life together and in the midst of this this experienced happen and you my woman or my partner made a female partner went out and then you can if want to know how did this happen what what what happened to us where were we at you know is this related to the relationship I think the big stinking for me is to figure out what betrayals take place because the relationship had disintegrated in some way or degraded and which ones have nothing to do with the relationship yeah people who have been sick people who are unemployed people who have lost their sense of confidence or people who have made a lot of money suddenly the other way around people who suddenly feel like they deserve something because in a way when you allow yourself this experience it's because you feel you deserve it you justify it to yourself you come up with good explanations for why you of all people can do this I need to understand what you were thinking about me when this was going on did you even think about me did you think what this would do to me or to our kids if we have kids did you feel guilty about it were you tortured in any way or did you did I disappear from your screen and you were so grandiose that I didn't exist anymore did you want me to find out are you relieved that it's come out do you actually want to come back and are you coming back just because it's convenient to you or are you choosing me again I think the most important feature in the trust is not only that you won't do it again but that you really are choosing to be with me again and that you're not just here because it suits you or because I make the money or because we have a common mores it's comfortable right what I really want to trust is that you love me and you want to be with me and not that you're here while you're taking about the person there yeah and that goes hand in hand with something else I think that's probably the most important thing about a hurt and the breach of trust is I come to you and I say to you I'm really sorry that we know from any trauma that it's the wrongdoer coming to acknowledge what they've done if the perpetrator doesn't isn't able to acknowledge it and I'm not calling these perpetrators but we know in the experience that when you hurt someone nothing helps you more than the person who hurt you to say to you I have remorse and I feel guilty for hurting you even if they don't feel guilt about the experience of the affair itself maybe you think that the affair was one of the greatest things that you have experienced in their fantasies or whatever you've or you've been a mother and a wife for the last seven years and you haven't had a minute to think about yourself and you felt like you had completely died inside and for the first time you reconnect with your own sensuality and your own lightness and you remember that you had more than just a mother and just a wife for example so you may think this was really important to me but nevertheless what it meant to you and what it does to your partner are two different things so my acknowledging that remorse and that guilt is essential it's the first step first step yeah and that is very different from feeling shame because when I feel shame and I feel so bad about myself I can't believe I did this there's more self involvement right it's more about how you make yeah you know make it about me so you can say oh it's okay or whatever yes I feel so bad about myself that I can't feel bad for what I did to you correct right so I have no empathy I still have not in the empathy it's like you need to be able to feel bad for making the other person feel bad and that means that you can't be so bad about you because then it's all about you big difference between shame and guilt okay guilt is a relational responsibility guilt is an accountability to the other that's the first one and the second thing is that I've been become the vigilante of the relationship meaning that I for a while while you are asking me the same questions again and again because you try to figure this out because your whole reality has just been shattered I am able to tell you it's okay I am here just keep asking not answer you I'm not gonna say come on enough already everything's okay let's move on let's move on it's over don't you see it so no I cannot rush you I have to give you the space to make sense to be in your pain to hurt to get angry to push me to pull me until week slowly settled and there is a period like the that acute crisis that you just can't push you have to go through it because it is in the nature of the beast it's a process it's a process no one's gonna rationalize it right away and move on it might take some time some thoughts some people take say years probably that you've been working with where it takes years them to fully trust again right but you know even when you say fully trust trust for what like I saw this couple recently last week actually and you know I said you still leave your children with him you have your money together you share a home together while your mother was in the hospital in the last year he continued to come see her every week he still is paying for your alcoholic brother you trust him for a lot of things it's not one big categorical you don't trust that he really has finished his story with this woman because you actually know that if an in love with this woman and you right not to trust him you are right because he doesn't trust himself yet he again is gonna take some time to come back and this is a very ambiguous period for the two of you it's very very shaky because you want him back but you know he's not fully back and he wants to come back but he knows he's not fully there but you trust him for many other things and you need to remember that too and it will take a few months he'll take a few months because he has made a decision he wants to come back he believes in what you've been together but yes for a moment he was ready to go Wow and I and I my work is I hold this I offer structure calmness reassurance and I basically try to not make anybody make rash decisions because when your limbic system is hijacked you better not make a decision about your life you'd be emotional and so you just invent down modes yeah you know in your sessions what what do you find is the the root of most divorces or breakups or separations is it infidelity or is it something else infidelity is high up there you know it's high up there it it but but is it the consequence or in the origin is it the cause mm-hmm that's the question you want to ask is it you know in some relationships affairs and the death knell for a relationship that was already dying on the vine but it was already dead this was just the way out and in other relationships the affair actually is an alarm system that jolts people out of a state of complacency where for the for the first time in a long time they realize oh my god I better pay attention I have so much to lose here Wow so it can make it and it can break it I think the biggest killer for relationships in general doesn't matter if they're short term or long term it's content content you can have volatile relationships but people scream fight but they make up and they know that fundamentally they'd care deeply about each other content is a form of dehumanization that's the research of one of the big researchers on relationships Cantabria the four verses of apocalypse equals then what is criticism sources of what apocalypse apocalypse Calot criticism defensiveness defensiveness right it's like every time I say something to you you can't just say that makes sense or tell me more or let me try to understand this yes I'm really sorry yes that is a bad habit of mine no I constantly defend and counter attack and put it back on you and you know criticism criticism is I can't just say I want you to do this it's like you know yeah you have to let this sit here again you know it's like you're doing this on purpose right I've had to tell you five times I don't want that iPad on the table here you know what kind of a thing is this you know this is just in spite can't you just ask for something rather than make a judgment on the entire person because criticism is a veiled wish behind the criticism there's actually something I want from you but I have a way of asking it in such a way that guarantees are never gonna get it right it's passive-aggressive energy you can leave the passive out of it it's a very it's aggressive direct I'd like at you I'm picking it and I'm going after you so because it's less vulnerable than to put myself out there with a request and say you know we'd mean a lot to me when I ask you this that you would do this hmm and and sometimes I've already asked it to you like that twice or three times and I begin to get more and more upset but the time people come to me they've often asked very nicely four years before I don't get to see that because usually people come to the therapist late in the game mm-hmm so defensiveness criticism stonewalling stonewalling silent treatment I talked to you you look up you know you're somewhere else I can't get a response you would draw you would hold all of that and contempt is that gaze it's that face that just says really mmm you can with one facial expression literally reduce somebody to nothing Wow and I think that one is probably the end of the rope those are the four killers are the four killers but what people think they divorce for is that they couldn't communicate but why they didn't communicate is because they were doing one of these four things thought they had arguments about money or they didn't agree around the children or they had no sex so they had terrible sex or you know they think it's there's a reason there's a topic but in fact the topic is less important than the way they were dealing with the topic mm-hmm you know yeah you have two kinds of couples those who are at each other like this in the negative space they are high conflict or they are avoidant too much avoidance that's it that's like everybody's gone off somewhere and too much conflict is this its escalation upon escalation on these two axis sits the death of a couple so how what's the perfect relationship a little bit at each other a little bit of boy yes this I mean this conflict you resolve it if we move again you get close again you you know it's a dynamic thing estrangement it's like you know I don't even know who's living here it what's the last time you had a conversation about something was the last time you touched each other when's the last time we looked into each other's eyes you know what's the last thing we talked about something else and what needs to be planned for tomorrow it's not always negative it's just the affection leaves the warmth the love the aliveness the vibrancy it seeps out how important is touch sex hugging kissing how important is that for a thriving relationship because you hear a lot about a lot of marriages like we have sex once a week once a month once every six months are those dying if they're not having that intimacy intimacy and sex is not always the same you can live without sex you can live without sex but you can't live without touch if you don't get touched as a human being you become irritable aggressive depressed we know that children who are not touched have attachment disorders I mean we are people who feed on touch sex is a different thing because people have had sex women have done sex with men as of marital duty for centuries and felt nothing hmm that doesn't mean it's a good experience so I don't care about numbers not talking about frequency or numbers of orgasms or any of that what you want is the quality of the experience that's the erotic how fun is it the pleasure pleasure is the measure not the performance okay that's a great line of a wonderful author named Emily Nagurski I think touch is essential humor touch playfulness an ongoing curiosity and interest in who this other person is what they're about what they're thinking about what they feel what they look at what interests them what takes them just that that you remain not just a function of a person who has a few jobs that you have to accomplish cuddling skin-to-skin contact looking into each other's eyes a smile you know a moment where you start when you just kind of take each other in this is the lubricant of a relationship the rest can be a good partnership you can have good partnerships you can have a flexion at coupledom and you can have relationships that are minimal on the sex because they lost interest in that because they have it somewhere else because they are sick because they have there are all kinds of reasons but it depends if one person really misses it if one person is longing for that kind of a connection and while the other one says if I never had it ever again it would be fine then you would pay attention because the loss of the erotic is a is a real loss it's a loss not about sex it's about what sex gives you access to for example I know a lot of guys that I work with you know and if she says you know all he wants his sex and I'm not all of them but in that you will understand and I know that's not the point I know that for this guy sex is when he actually allows himself to be touched because he's not necessarily a touchy guy outside sex is when he can be tender and she says the only time he's really intimate is in sex and she says it often from a place of you know I wish he was intimate with me at other times too I mean it makes perfect sense yeah but I also know that this is a guy who probably was given the masculine code your masculine code in which you know tenderness vulnerability surrender being taken care of all of that has only one place where you can experience it and that's in sex sex becomes the language the gateway to all those other feelings that are not acknowledged in the male code unless they've been sexualized so of course he wants sex but it's not sex he wants it's all the other things that sex gives him access to if he just wants to get laid he can go and find that you know what he wants is the connection with his partner male or female yeah because has available to express that in other ways or he doesn't know how to or doesn't know like you can or it's not manly enough for whatever that's right sex is the way to experience all these things without feeling like a little boy mm-hmm yeah so in those situations I would say you know do you need sex to be in a good no you don't but when you when it is part of your vocabulary it's like you know do you need do you need to eat certain things in order to know you can live on a lot of things depends which is the life you want to lead you know I am less interested in sex the performance that's for sure I am interested in the erotic connection in the intimacy in the pleasure that people can experience with each other getting it done is really not an important thing you know you can have junk food and you can have junk sex it leaves you with a bad aftertaste very bad yeah Wow in your sessions with couples and mostly with couples or is it one of the pair is it mostly individual but what is the percentage of male and female and fidelity if you're saying it's pretty much 50/50 right now or both sides are doing it equally as much or is it depend I think the gap is closing what everywhere you look to get back closing yeah and that means that it's it's not men who are doing more of it necessarily but we know that women me women for the first time I leaving their home they're going to conferences to they have jobs away from home I mean you need to have a certain space a wave that's what he had yeah you know I think it's the thing that maybe we need to add is like because it it's it needs to be said when you have a conversation about infidelity it sometimes looks as if you're justifying it you could be justifying it and I think that understanding isn't justifying understanding isn't justified yes to try to understand something isn't a way to make it right mm-hm and to not condemn something isn't a way to condone it right because I think some of the people that are least here need to be very clear on that that we are talking about it you know as if it's a subject same as when you talk about abuse you know if you talk about it like it becomes a subject of conversation when other people are aching in their belly sure sure mom I see couples I see partners in the couple one of them and I see other partners business partners who d will be trail to minute this is not the only betrayal you know and people whose values trust has been violated and so the themes like why did I want to write a book about infidelity because I think that you learn about resilience and strength from looking at the worst experiences people can have you learn about trust from studying betrayal you learn about fidelity and loyalty from studying infidelity you learn about how people recover by put looking at what happens when they are in the worst of the crisis is that and this is one of the main crisis that got the skin experience what's the biggest lesson you've learned from researching and doing this work on this topic in the last few years biggest thing you've learned about yourself or about humanity in general there are two things I think that that's then actually three things probably that stand out one the I - for a long time taught affairs only happen in troubled relationships if you have everything you want there should be no longer looking elsewhere then I began to hear more and more people come into my office and say I love my partner I'm having an affair you know in the same way that when I wrote meeting in captivity people would say I love my partner I we had no sex and I was like you know I thought if you love you desire and now I thought if you love you faithful so this idea that not all affairs are symptoms of relationships gone awry that people in happy relationships also stray and it isn't because of their partner or because of something in the relationship that there's another theme here that Affairs and this led me to the second thing which is that you always have to look at infidelity from a dual perspective at the heart of affairs is betrayal and hurt but there is also longing longing for an emotional connection longing for intensity longing for a different sexuality longing to reconnect with lost parts of ourselves longing to suddenly feel alive because people have allowed themselves to feel dead on the inside that what it did to you and what it meant to me that you have to be able to figure out those hmm it's a much more useful way to help people yeah how do we you know all those things we're talking about longing for a desire and someone else or a different experience or something from the past or all those things you're talking about how do we get those things in our partner people are feeling those things but they're missing even if we love our partner yeah we're not in this you know someone comes students like I love my partner but I feel like I'm missing these other things how do we not miss those things or create those in our relationship do you know how many times I say to people tell me something the person that is here in this other relationship is that the one who comes home I mean the one that you partner boyfriend girlfriend husband is dealing with is not nearly as charming and as attentive you know when you prepare you to suitcase and you fly and you choose you carefully chosen clothes and you prepare yourself in and you know you don't bring work with you when you go to you know but when you go home you're on your phone the whole time your lip bring the leftovers you're not nearly that attentive if you're way less charming your humor is gone you know and and then you tell me that your wife is boring or your husband is boring and you who are you here versus who are you there mm-hmm not what they who are you so that's the first thing it's like what happened to you that you let this thing seep out of you and what makes it difficult for you to bring this back into your own relationship why why is that is why people why people neglect themselves in some way why is it that there you can be such a free woman and here is this boyfriend of yours who think you hate sex you have no interest you are utterly you know frozen and this one is like it's the same woman what happened you know and on top that's the bigger lie the bigger lies not only that you're having a lover the bigger lies that your husband your boyfriend has no idea what's the truth about you hmm why and then different stories sometimes it's stories from childhood you know I have no idea how to bring that part of me in the context of family because family was the place where sexuality was the most dangerous so I have never known how to experience pleasure at home home was a place where I made sure to be safe pleasure I took somewhere else then you start to see the way that people have carved out and compartmentalized themselves and the reasons behind it now is real therapy work that's a different you know that's when you start to really try to understand why why why can't you integrate the different parts of you mm-hmm is it kind of like the idea of always dating in your relationship it's like always trying to be your charming self and not forgetting it how you got into the relationship don't like forget that is that kind of you know if it's always dating but but for sure the couples that are erotic couples are couples who maintain a level of attention on each other they they don't take each other for granted yeah they they flirt they are physical they they continue to play with each other these are they create desire I mean it doesn't just stay I mean it is an amazing thing to see how attentive people are to their creative projects to their artwork to their businesses to and how often rather neglectful even a date night it's nice but what do you bring to the date night I mean she's going through the motions or is it creative do something you know look we know that if you do familiar activities with your partner it's very nice and it creates a real sense of comfort to go back and to repeat things that you enjoy but we know that if you want to bring excitement into a relationship you need new experiences you need to have this relationship be one in which you take yourself out of your comfort zone in which you discover something in which should explore traveling but it does have to be just traveling by going abroad it's traveling it's taking yourself to new places to new experiences with each other to know thresholds all the research backs that up mmm it also boots testosterone for that matter nothing really beats testosterone that's the work of Helen Fisher and if you think if you look at it metaphorically or biologically it makes all sense in the world growth involves exploration involves curiosity involves discovery we know it in advance risk-taking we know it in business and it is no different in the relationship in the business of intimacy if you want to move like that hmm Wow do you do any of these things of course yeah we do it yeah for sure and if we're not my girlfriend always remind me like let's go try something new you know if it's been like a week or two where we've kind of been doing the same thing just like going to the movie or the same place to eat she's like let's go try something new and I'm like yeah we need to so she's actually good at that cuz sometimes I can just be focused on my vision in my work and just like not stop and it's comfortable to just do the same thing and not have to think about creating something new so but I could see a difference in that creativity and that uniqueness when we go do something different as opposed to the same thing I can feel the desire and the curiosity test answers thank you I mean the the difference one person says it's so nice I mean I wouldn't have thought about it I love it when you take me you remind me and then I don't mind doing it if I feel appreciated for it right because then okay became my role for some reason I have more availability in my headspace to think about those things and as long as I know that you really appreciate it that you value this that you're coming along not just to do me a favor right then I'll come up with more and more ideas and I will keep this going for years for years you know and we study erotic couples I mean there is it's not an unknown we know that there are people who maintain a certain spark and there's nothing to do with how often they make love but they are engaged with each other they enjoy each other's company after decades they still find each other interesting they're not bored hmm what else should we know about this what else should we know about I have to say one other thing that I had discovered that to me was really important because it is not getting enough attention attention Trust is everything these days is about you make it or you break it you end it's not good you leave you can do better you leave you're not happy or you could be happier you leave and I think that the people who actually want to stay after an infidelity in their relationship are often judged and look down upon what's wrong with you you let him walk all over you you let her boss you around you know yeah that's scary too it's kind of like your friends are constantly pressuring you can do better don't it yeah the majority of people I meet won't tell their friends to feel guilty or the feeling change or whatever yeah yes yes you dumped a dog on the curb right you know forget everything that happens name the five years of the relationship just that's right three five or twenty five right out and I think sometimes out is what needs to happen but sometimes this happens in a good relationship and it happened and and and we need to know what to do when it happens but just to judge people and shame them for staying isn't fair that's not good it's not right I don't and I think it really is not giving relationships the credit they deserve mmm because they're not perfect yeah cuz they're not perfect and you know what sometimes what comes afterwards he's gonna be even better than what was before mmm a wake-up call a wake-up call like when you have an illness it gives you a new perspective on life do I recommend you to get sick no but do I accept that sometimes out of that crisis you will actually reprioritize your life and live with a different level of honesty and authenticity the same happens in a relations you've seen this with couples you've worked with them again and again really again and again but you have to believe in the strength of people to actually take this learn from it resuscitate and revitalize yeah so if you are the friend of someone who went through infidelity whereas a girlfriend a boyfriend cheated on them and you're hearing this as the friend how do you create a space for your friend who went through this to make sure that your I don't know either giving tough love of like okay let's make sure this doesn't happen over and over or what's the structure they can give if they can't hire you or a therapist I think it's a great version because so many of us have been better friend and you know the first thing I say to the friend is try as best as you can not to insert yourself in the story it's not about you and what happened to you and what you might have did to your father or your father did to your mother and therefore what your girlfriend needs to do try to create a space it's exactly that now if you have a girlfriend and every time this is not three times in a row she finds herself with a guy who treats her like [ __ ] you really do want to tell her this is not okay mm-hm and you want to help her cool out but if you are with your girlfriend or a friend male friend and they have been together for 12 years and so you know that these people really been good together and they've build a lot of things together tell her figure it out I'm here for you I have no idea what's the right thing for you you know I'm here to hold you when you doubt yourself I'm here to remind you that you are more than just the person that just has been shafted and betrayed I'm here to give you back your sense of value when you think that you have been completely devalued and pushed aside I'm here to tell you that you're beautiful when you think that you probably are not beautiful enough anymore I'm here you know I'm gonna hold the other view of you that you don't have in this moment because you're so low mmm that's my road as a friend not to tell you do this or do that and judge you I mean the amount of people I've seen who say my best friend doesn't talk to me anymore oh my god because I've decided to stay with you no and why not because I think is such a great man or such a great woman we have four children my mother is dying I you know I haven't worked in 20 years I need you know or I have my business together I mean there are other considerations and I am NOT ready to walk out on all of this even if it's not for the quality of my relationship but it's because my relationship is the Nexus on which so many other parts of my life depend upon and I'm not willing to let all of that go at this point who are we to say who are we to say so it's a very delicate thing when to leave when to stay when to try again when to give up when to accept finally that this is never gonna change when to know you know and I think it's different when you with a chronic philanderer or and when you were the person who you know for four years before the none of this happened and this happened you know what was going on and what is the shared responsibility for the deterioration of the relationship as well what is there things that we color colluded on together but as a friend you really want to be there to give people back their sense of self-worth at a moment when they feel like it's been sucked out of them more than to tell them leave you know I did put the clothes on the street yeah yeah take her out you know how they because the the fear of staying the shame of staying is even worse on man oh my gosh oh really oh yes so in men get because we understand that women are used to women historically I used to be cheated on so you know therefore they need to go now because they finally have the choice to do in the possibility to go but the guy who stays what kind of a man are you weak its emasculated he's weak he lets her walk all over him you know he has no balls I mean his entire masculinity is instantly put on the line and even more so when you go to Latin cultures and more traditional branches there it's like you're you know who owns don't exist on a woman huh right so how would how would a guy friend support the guy who got cheated on who you know don't start trashing the partner by the way that's the first thing on either side it's so because if I start trashing your girlfriend look at her what the you know that what are you gonna do you're gonna defend her you're gonna end up with more because you know it's not that bad instead of you being angry at her I am now suing like as if it happened to me you know I'm a good morning with that do so now you could in a triangle mmm you know I just need to say look man this is horrible this is this sucks you know what happened there you know and do you think you've been good to her do you think that she had reasons to before you start cursing her maybe we check a little bit on here for the moment to you know you know what it looks like she's not really into you I mean she know she has issues or or maybe she doesn't love you anymore but you know you've made it impossible for her to go because you have this business together any basically told her that she won't get a penny when she goes mm-hmm you know if you love someone set them free if they love you they'll come back mmm I've got chills like the last five minutes because I think this is actually the most powerful part of this is having that conversation of what to talk to when your friend goes through this because I think we we experienced that a lot in relationships where somebody that's broken up with you know I hear about all my friends and I will click to be like leave that person you know like quickly so that was important for me to hear and I think for a lot of people to hear so if you have someone in your life who's gone through this send them this or send their friend this so they can hear how to approach that and create the space cuz I think that's that's gonna be huge I think for a lot of people especially women I think they're constantly hearing these things of the guys cheating on them or whatever and it's like quick to leave the guy so although that was powerful thank you is there anything else I should speak for two hours I know friends can say I mean I've because it because every friend is in that situation what I know is I can't tell you how many people come to say I can't talk to my friends about and talk to anyone my family is already the double-secret oh my god a double secret because now I have the secret of what you did to me and now I mean the secret of not being it sure he's not allowed she can't come to this house anymore you know and I'm like it's and I see the people it's like now they're caught between you know my my parents didn't want me to marry him my brother's didn't want me to marry her you know now I have to go and say anyway right as if this means that they were right you know 15 years later sometimes oh my gosh and people are caught like this and friendship is really not about something on occasion you really say come to my couch you can't think at this point you destroy you should not be in the house just open your house cook take them out distract them remind them that they are more than just what has happened to them yeah you know you do that people will come to to it to tap into their own resources and their own resilience they have the strength to go through it mm-hmm you know and then you just say you know sometimes it takes a few weeks to actually find out if you want to leave if you want to stay what you're going to do it let them land don't just you know instantly from the decision for that make the decision for them because you don't have to live with the consequences you don't you know and and people have financial issues and they and money issues are really complicated and children things are complicated and extended families are complicated a marriage is not just two people it's a whole network when you dissolve the relationship you deserve a whole life and none of the friends have to go through this right you know but I don't want to see a victim I don't want to be a friend of a victim you know and maybe the person is not necessarily just a victim the person you know has gone through a real rough experience and it depends it depends if there is STDs involved it depends if there are the children environment this is a whole step a second give people the space and be there for them and ask them what do you need do you need me to help you stay do you need me to help you leave do you need me to just be here for you and shut up do you need me to go and just walk in nature in silence and just remind you that you're not alone you're not alone I'm here for you that is the most important thing a friend offers mmm make sure you guys get the book the state of affairs rethinking infidelity it's out right now go check it out there's gonna be a lot more about how to address infidelity in your life how to think about it how to talk to your friends about it who have gone through this plus you have a lot of exercises throughout the book questions you should be asking your partner's some of the things we talked about based on hundreds and hundreds of stories so of people that I've seen it has every permutation of the experience it's there is not a person who won't recognize something about themselves in there even if you haven't gone through the experience it's a book about relationships in the end yeah and it you know it's actually a book that will tell you today I was talking to someone who said Mary ten years she says to me I have never gone through this but I really feel like it's telling me everything I should pay attention to to have a thriving relation to actually make that not happen to me to avoid it to avoid it yeah you know once this happen now what to do but how to avoid yeah right so I lose this experience to dive into all kinds of things we talk about jealousy we talk about vengeance we talk about sex we talk about monogamy we talk about heartbreak we talk about shitty things people do to each other we talk about guilts and we talk about being accountable in number ghosting each other ways and and it really covers actually you know love is messy and infidelity even more so Wow make sure you guys get it you can go to s ter Parral calm as well to learn more about all your programs the book is on Amazon Barnes & Noble everywhere else the state of affairs oh yes and the broadcast because it's audible right on when it goes out on iTunes the same thing every day so the podcast it should be fascinating because and what's it called where should we begin where should we begin download the podcast I think it's had over six million downloads on audible already and it's coming out on iTunes right now download it because it's sessions where you do two or three hour sessions with anonymous hours so their half hour podcast sessions where you did three hour sessions with couples who are anonymous their names are anonymous but real life unscripted sessions you just enter in the midst that's gonna be crazy to watch and listen and actually realize that you're in front of your own mirror Oh Alex I haven't listened to yet so my sanity check that out I'm very excited to listen with your girlfriend she won't any more Drive you listen with her be powerful it's very tough it gives you the conversations that you wanna have amazing so make sure you guys get that also at the end of this there's gonna be information afterwards about how you can get a car free copy of Astaire's book because I bought a bunch of them so we're gonna be doing a little special package so stay tuned on that information at the very end I want to ask you a couple final questions I think I asked you last time but I'm gonna ask you again this is called the three truths so if this was the last day for you many years from now and you have achieved everything you've ever wanted to achieve you've written all the books podcast videos speed speeches and yet for whatever reason it was all erased so all your content was gone and you had a piece of paper and a pen to write down three things you need to be true about all the experiences in your life and these lessons would be all the people have to remember of you what would you say are your three truths oh I would love one of them to include all the people who think their lives have been changed by working with me reading me interacting with me I mean for whom I really I mean when people come to tell me that today I just think if one day I die and a lot of people walk around this planet and just say you know she changed my life because you know I was stuck or she saved my marriage so I went dancing recently and these people just literally showed up on the on the pier and just like you don't know us but you've changed our marriage it changed our life and I'm like that's great that that would be one what about what about lessons you would share with the world like three lessons Oh lessons I would share from your life experience yes yes yes you judge people by their actions more than and that's one clear and you know how decent are they and that has very little to do with how much money they have how much education or which political party they belong to yeah don't you know that it's really the kindness of strangers you have no idea who can one day be the one who shows up for you mm-hmm yeah it's it's just their humanity it's not what they stand for and represent that that to me is probably one of the most important it shakes it changes every time you look at people it keeps you open and curious and because you have no idea they they may look like whatever and I that's one mm-hmm no way you come from always remember where you come from doesn't mean that you stay stuck there but it's it is it is the source and we only have one source each of and every one of us I never forget that identity and and have you loved once at least loved once at least you need to at least have loved ones I think everybody should know that experience anybody shouldn't have had children not anybody needs to have children but everybody should have loved one sure sure those are great before I ask the final question I want to acknowledge you is there for being an incredible gift to humanity and helping so many people through hurt pain confusion heartache create healing within themselves and in their hearts and mend certain relationships especially the relationship with themselves salon technology for the consistent working been doing for decades you can helping humanity yeah thank you so much yeah final question is what's your definition of greatness to have a full life a full life and that means whatever it means for me it means fun and interesting things and creativity and enough money to do what I want and and a robust group of friends and a great relationships with my son and with my husband I mean full I just to feel like like you satiated that's if you have a life in which you feel satiated to me anyway then I feel like I have greatness but I could answer this 10 different ways such a it's a great word because you can apply greatness to everything today at this particular minute that's what came out that's there thank you so much I appreciate you thank you you

Channel: Lewis Howes

Views: 611,945

Keywords: lewis howes, the school of greatness, esther perel, the truth about infidelity, the state of affairs, rethinking infidelity, professional arena football league, success, relationships, cheating, desire, motivation, relationship advice, self help, self improvement, relationship tips, esther perel interview, personal development, love advice, matthew hussey, relationship problems, relationship goals, esther perel infidelity, lewis howes interview, dating advice, self development

Id: _n75rgpXzuo

Length: 66min 2sec (3962 seconds)

Published: Tue Oct 10 2017