- Hey everyone. I hope you enjoy this episode and today it's brought to
you by our friends at Wix. - And I think another important thing is to meet a lot of people
who are smarter than you and ask them questions and pay attention and follow-up and validate
and check the things that you learn. If you feel the whole
world can be your teacher and your learning, asking questions, keeping an open mind, that I think probably is what I have done. (audience applauding) - Hey everybody. Welcome to Impact Theory. Our goal with this show and company is to introduce you to
the people and ideas that will help you actually
execute on your dreams. Today's guest is one of the
most prominent and successful tech investors on the planet. Named one of the 100 most
influential people in the world by Time Magazine, his
contributions to both the Chinese hi-tech industry and to the broader field
of artificial intelligence simply cannot be overstated. As chairman and CEO of Sinovation Ventures he manages roughly two billion dollars and through some of the most blindingly pretient investments, he and his team in just
four years have helped birth 15 unicorn startups including an unparalleled five in AI alone. The author of 10 US
patents and more than 100 journal and conference papers, as well as being the founding
president of Google China, the founder of Microsoft Research Asia and a former executive
at both SGI and Apple, it's easy to see why so many consider him one of the most central figures in the realm of artificial intelligence. The numerous innovations
he's helped bring the world have been feature on Good Morning America, ABC Television and the front page of The Wall Street Journal. He's also the author of
seven best selling books and has more than 50 million
followers on social media. His leadership and insights
into the future of technology have not only garnered him followers but have also made him one of
the most respected educators of the next generation of
entrepreneurs and policy makers. So please, help me in welcoming
the best selling author of the new book AI Super-Powers, the oracle of innovation himself, Dr. Kai-fu Lee. (audience applauding) - Welcome to the show. - Thank you, thank you. - Absolutely man, it's
so good to have you. - It's great to be here. - I'm very excited to dive
into AI and all that stuff which I have an absolute fascination with. But I actually want to start, you've talked a lot about
the Chinese work ethic and how crazy intense it is. Was that already something that
was present in your family? I know you've talked about it. Was there a lot of pressure
in your family to excel? - There was, especially from my mom. I was her only son and I think she really wanted me to excel so I remember when I was very young she
would have me write these Chinese characters and every
time I make a little mistake she would you know, slap my hand. Have to do it over. Have to memorize all those Chinese poetry. Every time I missed one character she would throw the book out the door. So, I was pushed to work very hard but also very rewarding. She would buy me any book I wanted to read and she would give me, reward and hugs and lots of good food when I do a good job. So, very much the following the Chinese reward/punishment system to push towards incredible hard work and excellence. - That's interesting. How much of that have you now employed with your own kids? - None.
- Really? That's interesting. Why none? - Because I think people really need to find their passion and forcing someone who's not good in math to you know, enter the math contest or
someone who hates spelling to win the spelling bee is not something I want my kids to do so I always help them explore things they might be interested in and then supported them
when they found that. - That's really interesting. I wanna talk more about that. So, your mom was pretty intense but was obviously, you said that it was very rewarding. Was it just rewarding in the sense that okay I had access to books and I would get anything
I want or has it been like that knowledge that
she forced you to get, has it helped you? You've been so successful. - I think it certainly has helped me but also I think having a
chance to study in America was perhaps even more important. That Asian schools really
didn't give people a chance to learn how to learn and the
Asian schools are really good at providing a decent level of competence by forcing you to memorize everything but it actually stifles creativity. Coming to America was even more important that being forced to work really
hard before the age of 11. - Because you were able
to find creative outlets? - Yeah, because then I
found programming to fun, AI to be fun and I was
able to pursue my passion. Maybe a little bit late but still got to. - So interesting. So, listening to you talk, I am so interested in your theories around why you think the Chinese
are such high performers and in fact, talk about that. So, you said that if, if the sort of Chinese
culture comes up against basically any other culture, where's the work ethic fall? - Well I think work ethic
is a very critical part why China has risen so fast and work ethic is not only a century
old Chinese tradition, but it's also accentuated now
because China has been poor for so many recent centuries. So imagine a single child in the family who has pressure from the two parents and the four grandparents. All the pressure on one person and feeling that this person is the only chance to bring
the family out of poverty and the family may have
been in poverty for five, 10, 20 generations so you can imagine the pressure to excel. So as long as China still has not created a large middle class like America has, there will always be these poor families with great expectations
for incredible work ethic. - So interesting to me. So, that there's something
distressing in me that makes me like that so much. It's created this just wave of innovation in China that certainly in AI is rapidly becoming unparalleled and to hear you tie that to, you've got these people that
have expectations on one person and they've got that one shot
to pull them out of poverty but they're really doing it. For me it begs a question then, what's more important to you? You obviously champion that, you've invested in a lot of
companies very successfully and you bet on a lot of
Chinese entrepreneurs because of this work ethic. So why not instill or push
your kids in a similar way? What is it that is more important that makes you not want to do that? - I've been through a lot myself. I've had cancer and I've, I'm not in remission and in facing cancer I realized that working hard can't be
the purpose of our lives. It can be something that
you do when you love it but it actually creates a lot of stress and at the end of the day when
you really look at your life and facing death maybe
measured in hundreds of days, as I once did, I felt working hard was not on my priority list at all. If anything, I regretted working too hard. - Talk to me about the cancer diagnosis. The day that that comes down, what was that moment like? You'd been, in fact give
everybody a little bit of frame of reference for
the Chinese work ethic. You said that there was
one company that said, "Hey come work with us,
we're far more balanced, "we're nine nine six." What's that mean? - Yeah, yeah. That company is now listed
at about 60 billion dollars and they attracted the
employees on the basis of work/life balance. And the nine nine six
meant 9:00 am to 9:00 pm every day for six days a week. - And that's the balanced company. - That's the balanced
company, you get Sunday off. - So you're in that environment, were you working like that? - Yeah.
- Oh God. Talk to us about when your
wife was about to give birth. - Right. So, for my first child in 1991, December 16th, it was the day I had to present Apple's
CEO artificial intelligence. We had a demo that would work
really well with my voice and less well with other people's voices and I wanted to put the best foot forward but my daughter wouldn't
come out (chuckles) so I have to face a decision
of do I see my child birth or do I make the presentation AI, and I was set getting
ready to go back to work but just half an hour
before I had to leave, she cooperated and came out. Otherwise I would have missed her birth. - All right, so we go from that and then that type of work ethic, do or die, all in where
nine nine six is balanced. How do you hear that cancer diagnosis? What is that like first
hour, first day like? - I went through the usual phase of denial and why me? Negotiate with God. What have I done wrong? What can I do right? And then quickly came to my senses that this is what it
is and I need to first rewrite my will. Tell my family and then go on the internet to look for any possible
chance that I might still be treatable. So, it was both the emotional side and also the rational side
simultaneously firing away and once I got both sides settled, you know all the emotion,
anger, kinda calmed down and also found that
this cancer is actually still possibly treatable, then I reflected on my
life and realized that I really put work first. My family, my loved ones, I was a passable son, husband and dad because I was a good optimizer
like an AI algorithm. I knew how to spend enough time with them so they would consider me passable but never put them at a top priority. - Were you living like
that with work first as a sense of duty or obligation? - Actually, I just thought I loved it. I loved the sense of accomplishment. I love the fact that my
employees called me Iron Man, that was my nickname. I love the fact that I responded to email within five minutes always. Had my PC with me, at the time
there was not mobile phones. Even when I went to bed I
would wake-up automatically at 2:00 am and 5:00 am
to answer all my emails because I was working for Google and there were questions my
colleagues and boss may have. I wanted to be responsive. I always my employees to
feel like "Well, the boss "works so hard, I should work hard too." So I never thought there was any issue with making working hard
the only priority in life. - So man, when I say
this resonates with me because I'm still in
that mode where I love it and I had an employee tell me that she didn't think I
was human and I loved it. Now help me see the perspective of when you really start to
reflect and start regretting. Why regret? Like, if you were really enjoying it, what it is that your family gives you or means to you or
whatever that you realize that was a mistake? - When I found out about my diagnosis and got over the denial period, I started rethinking my life's priorities and I saw how my family was so selfless in taking care of me. My wife would sleep in
the hospital with me on the little couch and my
sisters were making me food. My daughters were making
me little presents trying to cheer me up and I saw that I never did that for them. I also read a book by Bronnie Ware, she was a care-taking nurse who saw two thousand people on their deathbeds and in her book she said,
"None of them wished "they'd worked harder,
achieved more wealth or fame. "They only wished for "giving love, spending
time with loved ones "and also pursuing their
dreams and not just blindly "following fame and wealth." And also during my illness I visited a very famous Buddhist
monk, Master Sheng-yen. He's perhaps the most famous
Buddhist monk in the world. He's very wise, in the mountains in Taiwan and then I talked to him about
my illness and my regrets and he said, "Kai-fu, what
really drove your life?" and I said, "Very simple, "making a difference to the world, "making an impact so I
measure everything that I do "minutely by how I can
make a bigger impact, "how I can invest in a better company, "how I can write a book
that sells more copies, "how I can give a speech
listened to by more people." And I said, "This has to
be good for the world, "and why do I have cancer?" And he said, "Are you
sure you're doing all this "for the world to be better
or are you just doing it "to make yourself more famous?" And then I started to realize
these two were not separable and it was um, and then he explained that
people can basically succumb to two temptations: greed for money and greed for fame. He said that in a lot of Chinese teachings greed for fame is considered
bad so a lot of scholars shunned that but greed for fame is praised because that's considered
leaving a good reputation, changing the world, helping
the world be a better place, but he said, "Kai-fu, I think
you're just fooling yourself "to say that your trying
to help the world. "You're really just trying to
be more famous, aren't you?" And then that really hit me and he said, "Well, if you agree
with what I said really, "I think you should change your purpose. "Helping the world be
a better place is good, "but it is through giving
love to other people. "It is not through making yourself famous. "You need to separate these two things." And that was probably the big
wake-up call that I needed. - How did you separate them? - When I wanted to do
something I would ask if this is something that
would really make the world a better place or is it
just yet another effort to make myself more famous. And I would prioritize the former goal and then if there were
people who needed my help that would have nothing to
do with my advancing myself, but it was something
that I knew they needed I would spend more time for that. I would spend more time with my family. I still work hard but I always
put my family's priorities at first.
Family and friends. When my kids take vacation home, that's when I drop work
and spend time with them rather than the other way around. It's just reversing the
priority 'cause family isn't gonna take all of your time. If one just puts that
at a higher priority, I think the number of hours
at work may be 20% less, it's not down dramatically but now I feel much more gratifying
that everyday I feel like my life is more meaningful and also I've killed all my bad habits. Refuse to get up at night, try to get a good full
night's sleep every night. - So, walk me through the
barometer that you use to determine whether something's actually gonna be good for the world. You're at the nexus of something that is going to disrupt
the world so profoundly, how do you look at that
and go, "This project is "worth my time and energy
and this one is not?" - We can choose to invest in a lot of artificial intelligence projects. Obviously, if we see a
good business opportunity, we can't pass but I would spend more time. AI for health, AI for education. Those are things I would
spend my personal time on 'cause knowing that those will
be beneficial to the world. Also, when I look at all the
AI investments we've made, I can see that there are many
jobs that are being displaced by the investments we made
and also by AI in general, and that is a warning
call that the world needed so I decided to write this book. This book is not just about AI technology, it's about China and US
rising as a duel engine to push AI forward and that AI is an ability within one single
domain to do a super-human job. Whether it's picking
fruits, washing dishes, working on the assembly
line, customer service, cashier, loan officer. I see those jobs as being
displaced over the next 10 years and there needs to be a
warning for young people to pick the right
professions and a warning for people in those professions to get ready for a new beginning. So that, I think, was a clear call to me that it was a call of
duty that someone needed to alert the world about that. - It's really interesting
and what I love about it in putting you in contact, you in particular talking on this subject, is so fascinating because you've said that the very purpose of life is
to give and receive love. So, somebody who says
the very purpose of life is to give and receive love, how do you think about the
disruption that's coming? It's gonna just eradicate
jobs and ironically enough, I partnered with a DJ named Steve Aoki, we wrote a comic together
called Neon Future and it's about the trough of joblessness that we're gonna go through
and the story we wanted to tell was how do you get out of that? How do you come out of the trough? It's pretty inevitable
that that's gonna happen, that there is gonna be this disruption so knowing that the purpose of life is to give and receive love, knowing that you're trying
to help people pick jobs that are gonna well with AI, what is that? What should people be thinking about now? - I think it actually all works out because if you look at
this defensively and say, "What are the things that AI cannot do?" it really falls into two large buckets. One is jobs that require creativity, strategy, conceptual thinking
and the other is jobs that require compassion,
empathy and human connection, because you don't a robot
to be a nurse, a doctor, a nanny, a elderly
caretaker so it turns out the latter bucket is the
only bucket large enough for the job displacement. I think for the next 20 to 25 years, people's values are what they
are as much as I have come out and realized my life
can't be just about work, there are many who will not
have that death-driven epiphany so they won't realize it and so it is important for
them to find a new beginning. It is really serendipity that the jobs that are large enough in
quantity and trainable in a fairly short amount of
time are the jobs of compassion so that will be how the routine jobs, when people are displaced
out of warehouses, assembly lines, call centers, the job waiting for them with the training will be jobs of compassion. That won't happen unless
the jobs of compassion are understood to be a valuable job and are
well paid in society. Part of in the book is
talking about how we can really help that happen
because AI won't make someone want to do an elderly caretaker job. It just has to pay better and that job, that category, elderly caretaker is going to blossom because
people are living longer. People over 80 need
five times as much care and yet one million positions open, elderly caretaker, are
not being filled because the pay is not enough. So AI is going to create, just in the next 12 years, 17 trillion of net value to the world. - So, now I wanna bring that together with two things you've talked about. So, we've got the notion of
humans are really gonna find their purpose in love and humans have this desire to chase their dreams so how do we bring those two things together when
dreams are often conflated, rightly or wrongly with
the fame, with the money. How do you help people, maybe even your own kids, how do you help them see a way to bring those two things together? - When we think about
beyond the current trough, maybe 30 to 50 years from now -- - That troughing like joblessness? - Joblessness, right. I think we really need to
think about a different world. That AI is not only
meant to wake-up us now to go for the jobs that
have more compassion, service jobs and so on, but also it's meant for
education to be changed. I think there are two aspects. I think one is all the
kids should be encouraged to really do what they love. It's really important for us not to let the current prejudices or beliefs of these are the good jobs, doctors, lawyers, engineers, these are the good jobs. Well, many of these jobs will be gone too. Within each area certain
jobs will open up, certain jobs will close down. Let's take the medical domain. I think radiologists, dermatologists, in 30 years they'll be gone, there won't be any more
humans doing those jobs but medical researchers, people
who invent the next drug, that's gonna be what we need. So, I think encouraging
people to go for the jobs where AI is a tool that
amplifies your creativity, that will be the ultimate job to have but it has to be an education
that encourages creativity and an education that helps people go after what they're passionate about. - Wow, I love that. Talk to me about follow-through. So, a lot of people
are going to experiment with a lot of things. They're gonna start, they're gonna stop and that's gonna become
a pattern in their life, start, stop, start, stop. How do people develop
the level of discipline, I'm putting words in your mouth maybe, but discipline or grit
to see things through? - I think one part is to
recognize that we're not just in a society with other people, we have AI so we really need, if we really want to be
that group of the creatives, the group that have the
wind behind their sails with AI as tools pushing and
amplifying their creativity, well, you gotta work hard at it, right. I think that's going to be, have a higher bar than ever before so that self-motivation I think, needs to be there. Also, I think you gotta be
doing something you love to do. I don't think anyone can be amazing unless they're doing what they love. Those two are really combined. I think there was a
book by Malcolm Gladwell where he talked about the 10,000 hour rule and that really continues to be true so it's got to be that 10,000 hours plus something you're
deeply passionate about. And then I would add on top of that pick something that AI can be, put wind in your sails. If you have that then I think the future will
be very, very bright. - The way that you look at the problem is really, really interesting and I think too many people probably
dismiss you just saying that oh, you grew up
in a America and China so you automatically have this purview but I think that you have
an exceptional ability to learn and I'm wondering if you have a system of learning. How do you go about taking a big problem and really getting perspective on it. - I think first you
gotta have an open mind. I think if you start with any prejudice, that Chinese companies are just copycats or Silicon Valley people
just don't work hard, then I think you have blinders on and don't
look at the whole picture. I think another important thing is meet a lot of people
who are smarter than you and ask them questions and pay attention, and follow-up and validate and check the things that you learn. If you feel the whole
world can be your teacher and you're learning, asking questions, keeping an open mind, that I think, probably
is what I have done. - It's really interesting
you talk about an open mind. So, you said something in the book, I was very surprised and you said that even if we're wrong and
we don't have a soul, we're better to believe that we do. Why is life better if we
believe we have a soul? - Many people feel either
we have a soul or we don't. It's a very strong
belief that people have. If you ask religious
people they all believe of course we have a soul, of course AI can never do what we do. But if you ask a lot of
AI scientists they'll say, "Well, it's all physical matters "and we just need to
duplicate and replicate "everything in our brain and body "then there will be a
replica of the human. "And of course, everything we do "are just electrons
firing, chemical reactions, "everything can be replicated
so how can there be a soul?" Both sides are very dogmatic. Having gone through cancer, having seen what are the things that are most important to
me and having been humbled by many mysteries that I don't understand, I would be with the group
that believe we have a soul. We're at a very tough juncture in humanity where we face a lot of great technologies and that our collective
consciousness is going to create a self-fulfilling
prophecy so if we all choose to be optimistic and
believe that we have a soul and believe compassion will take us out of any of the issues
and believe we'll find the better purpose to
humanity then we will. But if we believe it's
all a downward spiral then it will be that so
it's not so much a matter of do we have a soul or
not but it's a matter of our collective consciousness will create self-fulfilling prophecy which is either utopia or dystopia. - Yeah, yeah I love that. You said that there are
mysteries that you've encountered that you don't fully understand. What are some of those mysteries? - Well, why does intuition work? Why do you, when you see
someone you either feel affinity or not? Why is there placebo effect, right? By just our determination, by believing that this
useless drug is gonna cure us, we actually get cured. Those things I think,
are very hard to explain with a simple AI can
replicate everything we do. - Yeah, that kinda stuff is really, really fascinating to me. One thing that I should've asked you is what is the soul? What is it that you want
people to believe in and why does that make our experience more love filled and beautiful. - I think it's a belief that human to human can truly connect and that is not replaced by any machine. That is a belief that the
human to human connection is true and genuine and that
machines cannot do that, and that our soul, I think there is also a belief, once you believe there is a soul, that even when our body dies the soul potentially continues. I think that may or may not be true but I think I'm choosing to believe it. I think a lot of the
religions have that element. I think religions also have
elements of superstition, which is why they're losing traction, but I think there's something, some memories that people have of others and the affinity they feel it seems plausible that
even when our body dies, our soul goes on. - I'm glad you brought up meaning, that's such an important part of the book, the notion that AI can, if we're overly focused on working being a reason for existing, that there will be this loss of meaning. What are you worried about
in the loss of meaning? Why is it important
and how do we avoid it? - I think ultimately we will need to find the meaning of our existence. I think philosophers,
religions have talked about it. I think our pursuit needs to continue but for now we have been
brainwashed into thinking, many of us think that the
meaning of our life is hard work. And that's understandable
because if you go back to the roots of industrial revolution it was a process of creating a lot of jobs that are repetitive and
routine that is actually taking artisans job in making a car let's say, into an assembly line job. In order for the many people
who are in routine jobs to accept their jobs,
it would be convenient if they believe that their
life was about working. Work is suffering, it's
repetitive, it's boring but I gotta do it and if I do it well and do a lot of it I will earn more money and give my family a better life, give my kids a better
education so therefore, my work is the meaning of life. But AI is just the opposite
of the industrial revolution. It is exactly here to
displace those routine jobs that were created by industrial revolution so when those jobs are eradicated and people have attached
their meaning of life to their work and their work is gone, displaced by AI and any
job they're likely to find may be displaced again by AI, I think they will fall into depression, substance abuse, even suicide. There are a lot of evidence
that given this brainwash that we have, suicide
rates, depression rates, substance abuse rates all
go up in prolonged periods of unemployment so I
believe when we're facing this significant unemployment
in the next 15 or 20 years, we can't just hope to cure it by handing social welfare to people, by giving them money and saying, "Don't worry, you don't have to get a job. "Here's some money to help tide you over." Because what people lose
that's most valuable to them is not the loss of income
but the loss of meaning. - All right, before I
ask my last question, tell these guys where
they can find you online. - I'm Kai-fu Lee on Twitter,
just my whole name spelled, K-A-I-F-U L-E-E and my book has a website: Aisuperpowers.com which I'll
post my newest writings. - Excellent. So, my last question, what is the impact that you
wanna have on the world? - I think the most important impact is really to spread love and to be sincere to people and to do everything from my heart and when I see opportunities, share my thoughts in a way
that will cause the world to be a better place. - I like it. Kai-fu, thank you so much
for coming on the show. That was amazing. (audience applauding) - Thank you. - All right, guys I'm telling you, the coming AI revolution is so massive and to let it catch you
off-guard would really be a tragedy, largely for the reason that he already talked
about which is there is this real fear of loss of meaning coming because everybody has
their identity so tied up in their job and I've never
seen anybody more gracefully be able to go from engineer, like really talking about the science and what's happening
and why it's happening and have such a tremendous understanding of how it's playing out, even geopolitically. And then yet also, in the same book be talking about love and meaning and connection
and to be able to share his personal story of his cancer diagnosis and how it changed. I really believe in Yuval
Noah Harari's notion that people have, he said
science fiction writers but I'll take it farther
than that and I'll say that people in this realm of dealing with future technologies have a moral obligation to
paint a picture of the future that's worth creating. If we don't have a
vision to strive towards then the odds of us getting
there are exactly zero. That is one of the things that I found most extraordinary about
his book is he paints this incredible vision of that, and I'll encapsulate it with the moment when the go player lost
and he said everybody saw this triumph of, of even taking it so far as
to say that it was the west triumphing over China and AI certainly triumphing over man and he said that was to
misread the situation and what he saw was a man
that loved the game so much that he couldn't help
himself but to take on a challenge he knew he
would ultimately lose. And I love that, that hit me so hard because
that's the human experience. So, I think that this
is a truly unique voice. He is an ultra-credible scientist. He has done extraordinary
things in the field of AI and what he's doing now from
an investment standpoint, I think the 50 million followers are just a tip of an iceberg of people that should be paying
attention to this man and I hope that you
will become one of them. All right, if you haven't already be sure to subscribe and
until next time my friends, be legendary.
Take care. Kai-fu, thank you again so much man. - Thank you.
- An absolute pleasure. (audience applauding) Hey impactivists, I hope you love that
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