Herbie Hancock | Cambridge Union

[Music] [Music] hi everyone good evening welcome to the virtual cambridge union um for a really exciting event tonight we'll be hearing from herbie hancock who's an american pianist keyboardist band leader composer and actor he's won 14 grammy awards including album of the year for river the joni letters as the second jazz album to win the award please join me in virtually welcoming herbie thank you thank you very much it's really very very i'm very happy to be here thank you thank you so much really honored to be here with you um my first question is about what have you been up to recently you've said an interview you like discovering new rules that you can break them what what have you been discovering recently recently i've been doing a few things but one of the one of the most recent is has nothing to do with music per se but it's kind of starting to develop to include the arts and that's uh nfts uh and cryptocurrency and not just bitcoins and those coins but roon and uh um but i can see that uh it's i'm i'm starting to find some ideas about how to employ the technology with the field of music and i think that uh blockchain technology is gonna be uh an important asset in in the future but this is the beginning of a whole new uh technological age i i think the last age was the industrial age this is the beginning of the technological age i think it's really interesting um about blockchain and integrating music together um are there any new discoveries that you can share with us i'm not sure if i can share with you because um uh some of the ideas have kind of intersect um i'll tell you this concept uh when we think of if we want to hear some music right the devices that we have still often use a kind of terminology and kind of thinking that comes from physical cds and uh and for example you put out a record right now even though people for the most part don't pick up physical records they get the records online the record is still stagnant and doesn't change so the concept of making the music there's nothing that's flexible in it even though that the digital technology could it would take some thinking and some development could allow for changes to be made each time you play a record and i think of music videos when you make a video for me for for a piece of music the music is fixed and then somebody makes a video and the video is fixed i have an idea about you know an album concept but instead of uh doing each song with its own separate video how about making a video based off of the idea of the project and create from the elements of the music from the project create a soundtrack a fresh soundtrack so it would be a new piece of music underneath the video nobody's done that yet anyway that's that's that's that's one thing i don't know i don't want to fill you your head with too many ideas wow that sounds really cool um talk to us more about the music within the video and something that would change every time well i mean through the years a lot of people have developed new technologies and new presentations new techniques from for making music videos and and that's great but um i would be giving away too much of something that i'm really working on and i don't want to give it away because i don't want somebody else to steal my idea you know but uh i'm thinking of a kind of package that could include some of the things that we were just talking about wow that's really really cool um that won't just be stagnant something that can allow for for change so obviously it's not like a cd because you can't change any of that you know uh i think it's time to be moving on to something that can be uh much more malleable in the hands of the listener for sure that's really interesting you've been at the cutting edge of technology and pioneering synthesizers throughout you know what they haven't done by the way i've been fighting for surround sound since the 90s right and yet now now they have okay they have dolby atmos and it's now just this week being applied to records uh uh apple is doing that at least they've talked about that that's they've announced that you know it's actually going to be done and actually this this year that that changes is being made so uh there are interesting things coming down the pipeline i just read about um and i didn't know this lady gaga was doing a tour and and she was using a uh like an ai um [Music] almost like an avatar i forgot the name now something that was made in japan that also has produced records and this is completely machine based oh um oh we just we were on mute oh no okay you can hear me now right yeah we yeah we could hear you don't worry i was looking that was it looked like it was it looked like we were on a mute but anyway technology is going to bring bring some um uh interesting ideas for the for the future for sure um you've been really at the cutting edge of technology throughout your whole career um with synthesizers with electronic music and bringing new styles in your music what do you think is next um for moving in as synthesizers become more mainstream especially in the live sphere what's coming next okay what what is starting to happen people are coming up with for example not physical synthesizers but what we call plugins so these are uh software software instruments uh they've been around for a little while in rece more recent years but uh now some of the plugins uh don't even look like synthesizers there's one company that makes a uh a plug-in that that looks like a plant with leaves and as you move the leaves it changes the sound there's so there's a it's a graphical kind of interface that looks like a a plant and uh another one has um when i looked at it looked like a bunch of just a bunch of dots like on a map you have uh dots that are different locations but but there were different colors and and this is a plug-in that's about making percussion sounds drum sounds basically well not just that though that's a big part of it but there are some other um sounds that it makes too that are more melodic and combine them with rhythmic uh ideas but uh part of the interface one of the one of the pages of the interface uh is just a bunch of dots and as you move the cursor from one dot to another or from one group of colors to another that's the sound changes and i had never seen an interface like that anyway there's more and more of those kinds of things coming up um for physical synthesizers um korg is that's a company that i've i've done a lot of work with and they have a a lot of new synthesizers um but also roland does uh native instruments is always coming with coming up with a new like version two of push uh there's several companies that are uh continuing to advance technologically and it's very very exciting time actually now because there is so much change afoot what impact do you think that all of those changes whether it's the physical or the um virtual will have on the music landscape oh by the way you know what i was thinking i'll try to answer both those questions but because your question reminded me of something that i i miss saying at this point it's easy for someone who has never taken a lesson learning anything about the technique of of playing an instrument uh or anything about the construction of music anybody can actually easily make music now i mean the technology is continuing to make things so user friendly friendly that you know even a child uh could use it but with no lessons whatsoever and and gnz people like to figure things out for themselves anyway um it's and i brought up a interesting question with me i i'm glad that people are encouraged to make music and not discouraged because of a learning curve because everybody has music inside i believe that's part of part of life you know um and for them they're people that express themselves in a way through music and this is very exciting to me but it also means that people are putting up that progress toward learning more about structure more about uh the history of music that that is is not being encouraged by those same sources and so uh i've heard a lot of things that uh so simple that they're like simplistic and and to my ears a little boring you know but it might be it's exciting to someone who's never made music before i mean so on one hand we got the great thing that has encouraged encouraging people to make music but it's not encouraging them to advance them the making of the structure of music that's the thing that kind of worries me a bit so i'm i'm trying to walk a little bit of a uh a line between making something that is because of my interest in what young people are doing uh and being able to speak to them musically speak to their taste but at the same time introduce some new ideas um carefully that's not gonna frighten anybody or discourage them or turn them off but maybe open some doors to uh some new ways of looking at music combined with what they're already doing that can encourage them to develop music forward anyway that's my uh that's that's actually one of the i guess i could call that my speech of the day because that's i'm thinking very much about about that now forgotten what your question was for sure um i feel like that answered it quite well it was it was about getting people to really see through um and how people can use those sorts of tools to really pioneer new music yeah i i would just like to hear a little more variety and um even more chances being being taken i'm kind of tired of hearing just triads [Laughter] you know and and the other thing is dynamics i'm not hearing that very much but i haven't heard that very much in a pop field for decades you know everything's been just loud and kind of pounding on the instrument you know not like someone who actually knows uh has had some training in the instrument uh and can have a flow where things get loud and soft and and where you kind of uh it's like kneading needing bread that's maybe that's a very strange analogy but but uh i mean it's the best one i can come up with right now for sure so i want to hear i i want to hear your music that's that is is using more dynamics but i'm afraid in jazz we haven't used as we haven't paid as much attention to dynamics throughout our history either as musicians as they have in in in classical music for example there's a lot of dynamics in classical music but classical musicians for the most part don't know how to improvise see so one of the things that i'm trying to encourage is and i have a an institute herbie hancock institute and one of our our projects is to work with the classical musicians from the classical side of of university of california and la that's ucla and that's where my institute uh well one of the major programs of the institute resides uh and to have our students actually work with classical musicians and and show them methods uh toward uh improvising not improvising on jazz but because part of the history of classical music is improvisation improvised mozart improvise you know um beethoven may have had a sense of it um but it got lost and uh uh when the when the god of classical music became um uh you know learning um the you know that at the end of of a classical piece uh uh there's supposed to be improvisation there used to be improvisation but but uh now it's repertoire and improvisation diet we can bring that back and i think a lot of young classical musicians are are very much interested in learning how to improvise they're afraid of it but uh so i was afraid of it too and i started off as a classical musician when i was when i was a kid for sure um and how do you think that um you can sort of bring that spirit of improvisation back like during the pandemic is that one of the reasons that makes performing live so special during the pandemic things were very difficult because um it was almost you had to figure out some different ways to substitute for not being able to play in the same room as a another musician uh so even though i had classes at my institute the musicians had to start with one person that would lay down a track record it and they had to record multitrack and and then have the next musician get that and and somebody would have for example some chord changes you know have the chords written down then uh the next musician would improvise off of that or maybe it might be the drummer that would be the second person maybe we would might start off with the drummer and then the bass player and then the pianist and then the uh horns would be next but they do it one track at a time it's not the same as as playing together um so what's still a sense of improvisation would happen because the the horn players when they would improvise on the the rhythm section was already on the tape so the horns could uh improvise uh but there couldn't be the kind of back and forth conversation with the people whose tracks were already on on the tape so uh uh that that was difficult but now we can now the things seem to be getting a a lot better here in the united states anyway uh of course some parts of the world are still in deep trouble with uh uh with the virus but uh that is you know slowly being being resolved and i'm i'm looking forward to a much brighter brighter future for humanity where people aren't dying from from this virus you know but there will be viruses in in the future too without now i think we know that scientists have known that for years and it's just been kind of under the rug for decades and i think we're finding that today a lot of things that have been swept under under the rug are being revealed and the public is ready ready to hear uh like what's hap what happened with the history of racism in america for example i mean that's all exposed and how it impacts people of color today the pandemic is showing us something else too pandemic doesn't care what your color is pandemic doesn't care how much money you make the pandemic doesn't care what religion you are what language you speak you know where you come from it doesn't care what your sexuality is it doesn't care what your sexual preference none of those things if you're a human being it wants to kill you it's telling us basically that our species is a family we haven't learned that lesson very well but now this is something that we'll we're being forced to learn and we need to come to this realization that we are a family that everybody on this planet is a brother or sister you know in the buddhism i practice because we believe we live lifetime after lifetime that uh everybody on this planet in the past has even either been your father or your mother or maybe each one has been both uh this is what we need to do because this is what's going to lead to us being able to quickly solve the issue of climate change but finally i think humanity is is uh and and the powers of the people of power on the planet are finally seriously uh taking that into consideration and trying to work on that anyway i'm getting far away from the topic go ahead tara actually that raised a question i wanted to ask about how you feel like your buddhism and your spiritual practice shapes the music that you create and vice versa well one of the wonderful things that's happened to me through practicing nietzsche and buddhism you know with sgi and sokka gakkai international is that it has every once in a while i got an epiphany and i know it comes from my buddhist practice one of them is because this practice talks about you practice for yourself but you practice for others so and and and it promotes humanitarian ideals so it's about respecting every human being every human being is worthy of respect and being treated uh with respect that's the only way the the world is gonna advance and move forward and uh one day i was chanting you know we we use sound to uh that's a uh a law we talk about in in like the universal law it's it's it's encapsulated in that sound and i started thinking about first music and the fact that i've always considered myself a musician that's what i i am but then i started thinking about my daughter and to her i'm her father yes i play music but i'm her father to my wife i'm a husband i'm also a son you know i'm also a friend of many people i'm also an american citizen i'm a global citizen and i just looked at all those different aspects of who i am besides being a musician but the thing that actually ties them together is not the fact that i'm a musician it's the fact that i'm a human being that was an eye-opener for me that being a musician is what i do it's not what i am it was like right and so now the reason i even accepted uh being um working with unesco and being a goodwill ambassador is because i had that epiphany that fundamentally i'm a human being and i'm here we're all here to help each other like a family so then i started thinking about purpose that's the purpose of my music is to encourage people and that purpose is more important than what chord i use here or there you know purpose should be fundamental to the creation of music this is how my buddhist practice has affected me and this is also how i look at other people that's really profound and give us yeah i look at at that every human being as an equal we are all human we are all uh attached we all actually all came from the same root anyway for sure i wanted to pick up on something you said about the purpose of your music being inspiring people but you've pioneered a new teaching initiative with an electronic instrument glossary on your website talk to me more about this new initiative and your thoughts on music education more broadly you're talking about this math science and music project you know i had been told that certainly here in america maybe in other parts of the world that um a lot of young people were not interested in learning math or learning science not as much as before and then i started to think and realize actually that music the foundation of music really is in math and science if we think about time for example is measured in fractions quarter notes eighth notes half notes whole notes those are fractions oh you don't call them that we call we'll see we don't say those you don't say those are quarter notes i forgot what they say in england um sunny quavers and waivers that's like semiquavers and quakers that's right anyway but so you know what i'm talking about okay um that's one of the things also uh instruments that have valves like trumpet there's three buttons but it can get all 12 notes and some notes in between the 12. right how does that happen because it works off of the overtone series overtones that's science it's about sound sound is science so i started thinking i wonder if there's a way because everybody loves music even if they don't love math everybody loves music even if they don't love physics they still love music why can't we take what they love and use it as a platform to introduce them to what they now think they don't love and that can be a kind of a a match that starts a little little fire for them to to learn more about uh math and science uh so that's where the idea came from and we actually got together with uh some music educators and uh they were all in agreement with it with the idea it's a wonderful way to introduce people to math and science i mean one guy made a a program that for young people that looks like a a pizza like a whole pie right a pizza and divided it up into different segments which is fractions but each segment makes a sound anyway i don't remember exactly the the details of how it works but it was something really cute uh for for young people to people to be able to to appreciate what the music can do but also be a doorway and into math and into science that was one idea that many many ideas that that came out of it and i and and there are more to come for sure um i want to change tax a little bit and ask about what has been throughout your career your favorite type of keyboard to play and why and whether this has changed okay let me tell you one thing about me i have a difficult time making a hierarchy of out of everything in other words saying what is your favorite this because it means everything else is not the favorite you know maybe it comes from the buddhism that i practice you know i like to see things as as equals you know yeah the challenge is with yourself not with others you know it's not being better than others it's being better than yourself being better today than you were yesterday being better tomorrow than you are today that's the real challenge so trying to pick favorites is not an easy thing from for me to to do because i see more granularly that there are elements even in trash that can be used by the way this comes from buddhism too buddhism says that nothing is wasted even the challenges in life they are not a waste and you can find ways in those challenges in life you can find that later on that challenge was so necessary for you to become the person that you are today if you hadn't gone through that difficulty in the past joni mitchell mentioned about uh having polio when she was a kid and and part of her interest in music was stimulated because her her parents gave her uh ballet lessons and there were some other other i don't remember the details of the story but even that challenge made her become the amazing musician and composer that that she is so many people can can look at difficulties that they have in the past and see that that what instead of throwing things out because they were difficult it could be these experiences can be a catalyst for you to understand the suffering of others if you never said it suffered anything yourself it's very difficult to understand what that kind of suffering is uh but when you have had obstacles in the past the way uh the buddhist way of looking at things is is that don't let those obstacles stop you from being able to use them to move forward but the way the path is to look inside first and see what you can do what transformation you can can can change in the way you look at things in order to be able to see the path forward to see the pathway you can uh rise above the challenge for sure i think that means i'm going to amend my next question um speaking about no go ahead go ahead and ask it it'll be fine collaborating with some of the largest names miles davis chip korea the vsop rather than asking who is your favorite musician to collaborate with i'll ask you about sort of the memories that you had and just telling us about some of the really meaningful collaborations that you had it was funny when i you sent me these uh that question uh with an email and and i saw it and i laughed when i when i saw that question because what i just told you was my immediate response you know i i don't these are all different musicians and what they have to offer um comes from their unique perspective so uh those are all incredible musicians uh for having collaborations uh from miles davis i i learned so much about his ability to be daring and not to be afraid of change to take it on and and move forward regardless he encouraged us to take chances you know and he encouraged us to not be stopped by any kind of failure so that was a great great lesson to learn as and so what i've learned out of that is is that most of most of my my successes have been due to a lot of failure before and enduring uh uh i had to kind of dig through obstacles in order to be able to to rise above those obstacles um and you also mention listening um you said miles davis and and who else did you say oh i said chick korea uh and and your work um with the clinton and the vsip um but feel free to speak about anybody you've collaborated with and just share okay insights with our audience working with chick was fantastic you know uh we we're just about the same age chick was you know a year younger than me and uh so we came from the same generation uh he also studied classical music uh and as well as jazz and and so which was the same as as my history and uh uh but working with him was a dream i remember the first time we got together to rehearse for an idea that he that came from him which was us doing a duet tour and i went over to to his house because he had two grand pianos there and um so we decided to take uh some simple uh standard song uh you know from the what we call the great american zone book i don't i don't remember which song it was but uh we started to just play that right and improvise off of it and we were all very careful because chick didn't want to get in my way i didn't want to get in his way but he wasn't getting in my way and i wasn't getting in his way so i pressed a little forward further forward he was pressing forward and forward pretty soon we were realized we weren't getting it in each other's way at all and and so we just decided to throw that idea out about you know kind of being overly cautious and then we began to play with more abandon and we were laughing and and just having so much fun and the move the music was flying so so we finished that one tune we said well i guess the only thing we're going to have to rehearse now is just whatever new tunes we decide that we're going to play on the tour other than that we're going to do the whole thing actually on stage and it for me it felt so comfortable playing with chick because he would lay out this like this beautiful bed that i could just lie down in and feel that kind of comfort like lying in your own bed right um but not falling asleep i didn't want to fall asleep and certainly it wasn't the kind of bed that would make you fall asleep it was sort of motion and emotion and and and and challenge uh so i was always looking forward to doing uh tours with chick we did three major tours and then we did some some shorter minor tours uh before the end of his life which was unfortunately uh earlier this year as a matter of fact chick passed away uh within days of the birth of my grandson so i'm a grandfather right now yeah my my grandson was born in in february yay his name is drew by the way d-r-u congratulations hi drew [Laughter] i want to move on to some questions that we've gotten from the audience um the first one all the way from washington dc is asking what influence if any sunraw had on your use of electric keyboards sunrise opened my ears first of all it wasn't just the electric keyboards it was more just the sound of his band the compositions um they were at at the time he was i'm from chicago right and and he wasn't born in chicago but chicago became his home and he developed the his whole musical persona uh there with along with great musicians from chicago and and what he put on was much more forward thinking because there was there were visual things there were costumes that they that they wore it was very advanced um and i mean a lot of people thought it was a crackpot and it was crazy and uh but what he was doing was he was pushing the envelope and that's what i liked about him i didn't know anything about synthesizers at the time i think he played maybe a farfisa or wurlitzer keyboard which were two of the earliest uh electric keyboards and i wasn't that interested in in that but it did tweak my ear and little did i know that later on i was gonna kind of take up the mantle in a way with synthesizers but he he was one of the first that i that i heard so that opened my ears up for sure the next question from the audience is from henry from maudlin asking what advice would you give to a young jazz pianist just starting out okay uh the way i started out was the listening to records that i liked by other jazz musicians what i suggest and that's very important for you young musicians to realize is that you can use effectively copying the things that another uh a person that that another jasmine jazz musician uh has done on a record for example um in order to advance your knowledge about what can be done on the instrument but the object is not to be able to play like that person the object is to be able to play like you there's only one you because there's only one john coltrane there's only one wayne shorter there's one mile saver so one sunny step but there's only one you so each of the steps that are taken are for you to be able to use the stepping stones that others have tried to reach toward what you can become as a musician so so study is very important practicing is is important and i would suggest that you try your hand at writing too so it's not just physically learning um the instrument and learning the technique of jazz and maybe you can come up even with some new ideas about about practice you know and about scales about the use of fingers one of the things just popped into my mind that i was thinking about is that rarely do you hear pianists playing a series of notes that are fast and repeating any of those notes because the piano doesn't easily do that where you play c d e e f sharp g a flat a b c right so you repeating some some notes in there usually we play if we're running a series of notes every note is going to be different but develop developing a technique where you can repeat notes which saxophone players can do you know trumpet players have done it pianists don't usually do that so so there's a hint of something you can develop yourselves we've just got another question coming from the audience that asks why the piano what makes it so special piano is like an orchestra you can play chords on the piano you can play cards on the guitar uh but you know we have the five string guitar now there's six string guitars now there's seven string guitars and yes you can play different notes on it but look at the range of of a you know full size piano it's 88 keys 88 notes and the kinds of chords that you can play uh on on on a piano uh far beyond i think what might be possible on guitar or guitar data which i would say might be one of the closest things to you know being able to play multiple notes uh or accordion for example but that's like like a piano um so in a way kind of the mother the piano is like the mother of of of it all uh as far as uh being able to play chords and in multiple multiple notes at the same time for sure we've just had a question come in that's asking what's your favorite album released in the last year well i think i would say um jacob collier's uh jesse i think it was maybe the third version of it was uh still in 2020 i'm not sure uh but he continues to fascinate me i mean now he's working with with quarter tones and and other uh other notes between the notes uh uh as a matter of fact um this week i think um in a couple days jacob is going to be coming over to my house we're going to hang out uh it's always been a joy for me to to work with him uh and i have the great fortune that he's you know helped me with some some things on my album put some things on the album i've been working on for years now uh so yeah is jacob besides jacob um are there any other new young contemporary artists you've got your eye on oh robert glassberg for example amazing keyboard artist and composer uh he's fun to be around he's full of jokes and and and just there's a smile on his face all the time and his music has that kind of of lightness you know it's it's really infectious in a good way uh he's he's absolutely one of one of my favorites he's an amazing pianist um [Music] let me think who else i mean there are other musicians of course with with other other instruments um recently i was i was listening to uh uh domi domi and g day a jd beck sorry um a drummer and a pianist and dummy she is a a fantastic musician amazing technique and uh they're coming up with all kinds of new solutions to the playing of of jazz it's very encouraging to see this coming from from some people uh that are young so young i think jd is 17 or 18 and domi is in in her 20s and uh like i said they're amazing yeah another question that's just come in um from the alias a classical musician asks you if you have any tips for exploring personal improvisational skills specifically in terms of getting comfortable with new more exciting harmonies do i have any any tips for it yeah any tips for the classical musician who's just submitted oh classical musician uh as far as harmony is concerned listen to jacob collier he'll give you plenty of harmony uh well it's easier to talk about about those kinds of tips uh person to person and i could show you some things with uh uh you know on a music page that could be interesting but uh i would say the go-to person should be uh jacob in his music for sure um another questions just come in asking about the balance between artists now who do lots of composing and artists that aren't doing what composing and whether that balance has changed and what that means for the industry that's something i never thought about the balance between instrumentalists who are composers and and and those who are not composers i actually don't know the answer to that question because i i never really really thought about whether there's an imbalance because that implies that there's an imbalance i i guess right not sure i think it was just your thoughts on instrumentalists that are aren't composers and what composing ads well first of all there's an assumption that composing adds to it it's your choice you know everyone doesn't have to be a composer but improvisation itself is composing the other thing to think about because people think uh only jazz musicians can improvise every human being constantly improvises we talk we don't know what the if we're talking to another person we don't know what they're gonna say next right so it's not fixed what our answer is gonna be so we have to improvise an answer conversation is improvisation it's taking that stimulus and responding to it in a way that you feel is appropriate see that's that's the value of improvisation and it's a value to learning that you know jazz musicians aren't the only ones you know or musicians period they're not the only ones that that improvise every it's part of being human to improvise we never know what's going to happen in the next moment you know we're not sure what we're gonna have for dinner tonight or tomorrow we always have to make choices that's improvisation so it's part of living for sure very important um the last question we have time for is from ollie todd at downing who actually um last term asking women have been widely under-represented over the history of jazz why do you think this is and do you think this is changing if not what could we do to change it look women have been treated like crap throughout history and we all know that and men did it it's our fault right and now the day of recording reckoning has arrived and men have to change our habits right and you're right in jazz it was all testosterone right it was all about men drummers were men bass players were men that's changing now it's amazing jazz musicians uh are coming up constantly that are female and and uh you know terry lynn carrington as one of the leaders with drumming and she had to play like a like a man first right she had to play with testosterone right uh now she doesn't have to she can be herself whoever she is you know the whole of her character can can be in in her music and it's it's great to have estrogen and testosterone in the music you know uh jazz only has more to gain from you know getting rid of of this preference for men in in in jazz and as a matter of fact uh back even in in the 60s miles davis used to tell jazz musicians if you look out an audience and all you see a man your stuff is dead [Laughter] so he he knew that too much testosterone is not going to bring the full audience so that that was that was a kind of a a cue and and now fortunately a lot more saxophonists uh trumpeters bass players uh esperanza spalding amazing bass player unique nobody plays quite like her and she sings it's incredible so anyway that is changing unfortunately right i think that's all we have time for our hour has just flown by thank you so so much for me for being on with us and thank you so much to everybody watching have a great rest of the evening and have a great rest of the week thank you this is absolutely amazing and we'd love to be able to welcome you in person in the flesh at some point at the union thank you thank you tara i really enjoyed myself immensely i hope i didn't board uh too many people with my uh long speeches to answer questions uh but i had a lot of fun [Music] you

Channel: Cambridge Union

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Keywords: Cambridge Union, Cambridge University, Speech

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Length: 63min 39sec (3819 seconds)

Published: Wed Jun 09 2021