Charlie Mackesy | Cambridge Union

[Music] [Music] good afternoon everyone thank you so much for tuning in i'm absolutely delighted to be joined by charlie maxie this afternoon he is a british artist and author who began his career as a cartoonist for the spectator before becoming a book illustrator for oxford university press his award-winning work is featured in books private collections galleries and public spaces all around the world he worked with richard curtis on the set of love actually to create a set of drawings to be um auditioned for comic relief and with nelson mandela on a little graph project the unity series his internationally best-selling book the boy the mole the fox and the horse was published in october 2019. charlie's works and illustrations have brought comfort to many and have been shared online around the world as well as on t-shirts for comic relief magazine covers street lamp posts school classrooms cafes women's safe houses prisons hospital awards and as nhs computer screensavers away from art charlie ko runs um mama buki a sorry i've got that wrong social enterprise in zambia he lives in london with his dog barney charlie thank you so much for joining us this afternoon thank you for having me john thank you can you talk us through your childhood and early years wow it's a big question uh yeah you know i was put up in northumberland on in a very rural situation where it was more sheep than people and you know there was a lot of rural kindness there and you know i spent a lot of time with shepherds doing lambing and drinking tea with yeah it was all very cozy actually i was lucky yeah northern farmers um does that answer your question i think so um you're a student at both uh bradley college and queen pax and queen elizabeth high school yes yes you dropped out of both within a week no i well i didn't i i dropped out of bradley and went to a state school in northumberland um yeah did you enjoy school or how was it i found i what that's that you know it's not that binary i mean i i when i say that i mean some bits i liked and some bits i really hated like i found it very difficult i was sent to a boarding school when i was seven um and found that hard i mean my parents were lovely you know very kind people but you know i i suppose the boarding school experience was tricky for me um uh but then you know i suppose by the time i was 16 i kept um feeling that i wanted to go to a sort of a state school so i did um and actually you know i really loved that it was hilarious you know um because he could leave at three and there were girls there and there weren't when i was at boarding school you could you know actually be friends with girls and ask them questions about biology and you couldn't do that when you weren't any job to ask and and and we went dancing every night in the one night club in hexham and uh yeah so is it i think that was probably one of my favorite experiences of school was was what happened afterwards and and dancing and walking home at three wading the river tine and yeah it was good i lost the my last bit of schooling i loved yeah when did you start drawing do you know i mean i think i could always do it like i remember it's still like a draw but i had no reason really to do it except you know just to pass time or pass an exam i think i think with with art or any any of the arts i think if if you have a something within your emotive or reason to say things it makes it gives you a you feel like motivated and so i knew there was a latent kind of gift there um but i didn't really feel like using it until when i was 18 um my best friend was killed and he was called jamie and we were classmates and and i i think i went i just went into a very dark place um and one of the things i did was just i found an ink pen and started drawing and i went to stay with a friend in london i've been to london before actually you know he said come come and stay with us i did and i slept on the floor and i remember one morning walking out of this flat in battersea and seeing walking down the street and i saw i can't remember which exactly where it was but there was a row of houses and i thought i'll just draw them and i had pens i started drawing them and then i drew another street and then i do another street and i had music in my ears and i thought i'll keep going with this and i suppose like i don't know if you seen the film forrest gump but i was like forrest gump with drawings i just like he couldn't stop walking i really couldn't stop drawing and i found that it it was a it consoled me and gave me a way of making sense of things in my head with concerning grief and if i could make things order things in marks on paper it would it started it was therapeutic and then you know occasionally people would say how much are you selling that and i was surprised anyone wanted to exchange money for the marks i made on paper and they did and i started to make a living and every day i said to myself tomorrow you'll do something else tomorrow give yourself a let out clause you know just just make sure you know that this is a silly career it's not even a career it's just something you're getting away with for a little while um and so but it seemed to just not stop and i guess i'm still being forrest gump even now i still think i should get a proper job i don't think any of us want you to get thanks joel um we're just waiting for the next for the next point which which artists inspire you do you think that you and have something in common with some of the artists that you look at do you know you know when i was little i i really liked graphic novels i liked the combination of image with words so people think that asterix and tintin were really sort of settled in me and i loved the combination of you know i was always scared of i mean clearly you're cambridge and you're not fearful of of large numbers of words on any given page but i i used to i feel quite threatened by them or i would i would sort of i don't know it could it could be adhd i don't know what i have or had but i certainly struggled with c words so i liked from another and still do like image with word um and so there was those books and then there was a book i got given called tim all alone um by edward ardazzoni who wrote and illustrated his own books and he was a beautiful art he used ink and watercolor and um and again i got lost in his world of words and paintings and drawings and so they really influenced me you know the subjects as much as just the method that powerful combination of text and image um yeah it was i didn't know it at the time but it's always stayed with me as a sort of as a foundational thing and yeah yeah anyway so yeah those books can you talk us through your time in africa and when that began oh gosh you know yeah that that's um i i think i first went i went to zimbabwe when it might be 2045. and um i was just so moved by the people and you know you got got jobs plucking tea and and things like that and made drawings of them and liked their singing and i liked how they lived and i like the fact they had very little but had so much and you know all those things the cliches but they really felt true and they had a struggle but in the struggle they had love and hope and so they they i learned so much from them and i guess i i felt very um close to them for a long time yeah i was there a lot on enough zimbabwe zambia malawi and then south africa i lived in cape town for a while um and i always wanted to do something like when i was in zimbabwe i always kept thinking well i'll come back one day or zambia come back one day and make sure i do something um that helps you know create employment and uh income and schooling and those things um and so in the end i ended up doing that which is i guess i was lucky to be able to do it but yeah and living in cape town how did that compare to your shepherds in northamptonshire in northumberland uh you know well they're completely that they're they're two different planets really um but there were some things very slow and calm about the shepherds the northumbrian shepherds very sparkly eyes and weather beaten faces and and and big hands i still love their hands and i remember watching i was a boy watching them i always remember how they would break chocolate and instead i think with the remember that sort of five or six even remembering um bob henderson who was a very small shepherd just very sort of his incredible shape i think he's a and he broke we halved a bar of cadburys with me and instead of unwrapping he just snapped the entire thing with the paper on and just handed me a piece and i thought it was a revelation that he wouldn't unwrap it he would just snap it and hand it and um yeah so why am i telling you this i have no idea um uh so comparing them with cape town um it's an interesting question i guess the difference was music was hugely different so like i got quite involved musically in cape town and in zimbabwe you know i i i music's a huge thing for me um whereas in in where i was in northumberland it was mainly northumbrian bagpipes and listening to the radio and listening to donna summer and that kind of thing anyway yeah i love both but they're very very different obviously um uh yeah and now i'm not in either of those places anymore which is hard i'm talking to you on the same which is even older and hopefully at some point we will we'll get to have this conversation in person i'm sorry i'm not there no no it's all good um when did you decide to write the book and why did you decide to write the book well you know that's that's that's a hard question to answer because i'm not sure if i if i really did decide to i mean i was doing a lot of drawings with those four characters before the book came into view and i i kept having these conversations in my head that i would post on instagram and uh you know to my mind a book needed a narrative and i didn't really have one um i just had these questions that the boy might ask or you know whatever and and it wasn't for a year or so that i did a show of the drawings in in london and i hired the space because the gallery that represented me weren't that interested in doing the the boy mold fox horse they just thought it was a bit sort of obscure so i did it myself and just post on instagram if you want to come to this exhibition and please do and um i thought you know eight people might come um and it was it was it was a bit overwhelming actually and what struck me most was the tears shed there and i was there for five days from 11 till seven and i cried a lot with a lot of people and a lot of grown men it struck me who had been struggling with existence some of them couldn't really say anything they just looked at me and said you know thank you or about saying something that's saying a lot but i mean some didn't speak but i'll always remember that week because i realized that you know even if i didn't have a story or a narrative i had some a conversation between these characters that might might help people if it was in a book um and i so i i remember thinking well maybe i should think about it um if it carries that if it's going to be i didn't really think about selling i didn't think would sell very many books i just felt it should if if if he's going to help people i'll do it um so so and and and there was a lovely girl called laura um higginson who worked with penguin who came to the showroom day and said do you fancy a chat about doing the book and i said yeah of course but you know um um so we did and that's how it began um and you know and i just remember her coming to the studio in in in london and there were sort of honestly you know i i it's it's not a an exaggeration to say there were tens of thousands of drawings piled in this room just a sea of drawings everywhere it looked it was you know i hadn't really seen how many i'd i didn't have very many visitors you know a couple of friends inviting my dog so she was really shocked by it and said gosh we've we've got a you know there's a lot to it to your price of elimination really because we've got to somehow find you know the right drawings for this book and it took a while um yeah so it was decided essentially for me um and then laura i said i would really like to work with someone who's good at sewing the books together not physically but you know on a graphic zone and she said i'll i'll have a think and then um two days later the door because i went in the garden i went to the garden gate and there was a a small irishman called column he said hello i am column and i said i'm charlie he said great and i said so why are you here he said um laura said me maybe we should do this have a look at this you know the book and i said all right she came in we had tea in the garden he'd been following the drawings in instagram and he said i just think we should make a tragedy for people that's going to help people because you know and then we had we both cried i'll always remember february and it was like one of the sunny freezing days and we sat in the garden and we both had tears in our eyes because i don't i don't think we really knew what we were why we were crying or what we were going to do but he we just felt like we should make something that was going to be of value to people and and that's how it began really and so laura me and column would sit in the garden and go through hundreds of drawings and then we put it together and that was that the long answer to a very good question but um i'm not just a very good answer but anyway i think one of the the main emotions that your work really elicits is empathy i think that that's in a word what i think people can you talk us through the role that empathy is played in your life how that feeds into your work as an artist that's a lovely thing to say i mean i i i i suppose once i i remember had a a terrible time where i i i went through the classic relationship end with a girl i was in love with and in the same time period a good friend of mine had died and i was really really low and various people had come to me and said oh you know it'll be all right and they say give you the various platitudes that you might be looking for and and one good friend came around and she she sat there and she just started crying and she just sat with me and junk tea and didn't say anything she just had tears running down her face and as that's actually i needed um and i'll always remember it and i remember thinking she didn't really say a word but she felt what i was feeling and i don't feel alone anymore and she didn't try to make me feel better she just sat next to me and i think i think that is a very beautiful thing that humans can do which is to sit down next to someone and feel what they're feeling and not try to come up with any solution or answer but just to feel it the situation whatever is with you and and come alongside and i think there was a band called james in the 90s he wrote a song called sit down sit down next to me and i really love that song um you know those who find themselves ridiculous sit down next to me those who feel they're touched by madness sit down next to me um and he just listed what you might be feeling that is difficult sit down next to me and that it had a huge effect on me that song um and i think so you know all i'm trying to say is i think you know empathy as opposed to sympathy um [Music] is is such a beautiful trait and a gift to be given um and and i i sort of value it so highly um yeah is that always a message in your work that's a good question um well i in as much as i think if you you make any mark on paper or an image or whatever there's a there's a message of a sort in it just by the shape or um i think beauty in and of itself is a message and there's comfort in making drawings even if there isn't a there are words to go with it um uh it's a hard question once i mean obviously in the in the book there were clear messages that were obviously messages um and i think as time goes by and i have felt particularly the last year and a half since the pandemic and even sort of before it that you know there are things you can say that can help people and if if those messages do help people then it's good to make the messages um and i spent a lot of my life not you know really making paintings and drawings that had no message at all like they were just you know here's a scene um that might and there's a message in that too but i mean words i suppose have come become part of image with me and there's usually some kind of mess even if it's just about catch or the love of each other or you know how we're going to get through something um yeah so that's where i am right now um i i enjoy messages i enjoy giving messages um yeah so i guess now there are yeah essentially there always is a message yeah i'm one of one of the messages seems to be that perhaps it's better to embrace vulnerability than theory is that one of the intended messages it took me a long time to learn about vulnerability um and i i i think i think it you know i think the the the easiest way to connect with someone i think we all want connection i think it's it's just to be humanist to be desirous about and i think vulnerability is a surefire way of getting connection even though it's terrifying and rejection or the fear of it often prevents us or dissuades us from daring to step into that place of vulnerability um but that fear um is misplaced because actually what you're fearing is rejection but ultimately you'll you'll most the time you connect i suppose shane plays a part in us not wanting to be wrong or fear and shame but for me um it's always worth it yeah i'm i'm interested that you know you you couple um mesmerizing illustrations with really beautiful words and i'm just wondering what comes first or what is the stage do you do you come up with the image before you have this okay that's a lovely question i i wish i could there is no answer to it because i i don't know um if it comes in various ways like i i think you know i have i definitely have anxiety issues like when i say issues i struggle with anxiety you know and people say gosh you you know sometimes you're quite restless um your mind goes on to several things at once and you can't sit still and but drawing has always been the one thing that that calms me and focuses me so i i draw a lot without even thinking and even this studio roam this paper everywhere and as i've been on the phone to you i've been scribbling away it's like it's like a default so so and sometimes as i'm drawing i'll see it i'll see i'll think it particularly the boy the molar box and the horse i think they they began a lot more it was more gestural to begin with the intimacy was more you know the boy but his arms around the horse or you know sitting together or and then and then but but then the questions that their words started coming through my head as i recognized them as characters and as the characters developed and their different natures came to the fore they would they would have their their voices became louder in my head and the horse definitely seemed to be wiser and the boy had the questions and the fox was suspicious and quiet and the mole was just you know a ball of enthusiasm and an addict actually ultimately like he defaults to kate when things are difficult so i suppose the drawings did come first and then but now it i'll say i'll hear someone say something i'll be in conversation with a friend and i'll think wow that's interesting and i'll write it down and then i'll think of a situation to draw that may work with that so now it's changed i'd say now it's just as much words first as it is drawing but at the outset it wasn't at all um and what kinds of things you've been drawing whilst you've been on this call but actually they're they're they're not very good they're um they're they're just scribbles they're they're i'm not going to show you they're messy scribbles that are indecipherable and they're just marks i think even the act of making a mark um feels good to me i like seeing marks um you know i like there's a i don't know how you say his name but sai twombly or see tom see why twombly he's an abstract painter who does a lot of my i've always liked his work because you can tell there's such there's such a therapy in the mark making he does and that you know whereas i i tend to draw figurative things but the act of making the marks is therapeutic and also it helps me think it clears space in my head um i don't know how that works but it does um hey yeah i'm interested because before you were talking about anxiety and how i'm chlorine that i think that's you know a hugely cute problem here in cambridge where we have a lot of students who put quite a massive valves what would you say to to people here who perhaps don't have drawing as a mode of communication or expression what what kind of advice would you give them for anxiety um but probably the biggest enemy of it is to fear it the biggest lesson i learned about anxiety was to almost i know it sounds really odd and sort of antithetical but not until about but strangers is to welcome it um because i used to have terrible panic attacks and when i would feel one coming on i would go oh my god oh my god you know i grip tripped the chair and and then i learned to if i could recognize it sometimes you can't even recognize what it is is just to go okay hello sit down next to me you know what you're welcome and i think that disempowers it so so almost not to fear the anxiety or be anxious about being anxious um another one i'd say would be to talk about it i i and not be ashamed of it it's not a failing and on any level it's it's just part of being human and often you know life can make you act whether it's pressure or just because you think a lot or you you're you know but i've found you know conversations about it is very healthy so don't be ashamed and don't try not to fear it and find ways of it's almost anxiety feels to me like an energy and you know i spoke to you joel like a week ago and i i was going through a week of extreme anxiety and part of the reason why he didn't really you know want to drive all the cameras you know to sort you know they'll probably be so bored with me when i get there and you know there are lots of reasons why i was trying to come but it was a very bad week um and one of the things i do do that i get on my bike and i i just pedal put barney the dog in the basket i just put music in my eyes and just paddle and pedal seriously and breathe breathing is another really big one i know that's so basic but you know breathing deep holding it and letting it out is doing the four seconds in four seconds out is hugely helpful breathing into your stomach is really helpful letting that you know that breathing is something i didn't really you know understand for a long time um and you know meditation is really good you know whatever you can do spiritually you know there are various i mean i i you know exercise all these i think every human being seems to have a different way of dealing with um that restless fear um and the other question i used to ask myself is what's the worst that can happen really like what's the worst thing that can happen here yeah and i often ask myself that question so so what if you you know whatever it is you're frightened of um and that helps me [Music] um uh and i i think i know it's a message in the book but you know i think part of me never felt that i was enough i never felt deep down that and and i think if you can really allow yourself to dare to believe that right now right here in this moment you are enough as you are and that getting an a or you know getting a double first or whatever is great but it it you're enough without it you really are and and um i think we put huge expectations on ourselves and i think clearly society puts them on us as well um but what's the worst can happen you know i think that's incredibly powerful and particularly to this audience which is an audience i think of perfectionists and you know i raised my hand to say me too you know yeah i i it's terrible it's an affliction but you know there's a beauty to perfectionism but there's also a you know there's a curse and yeah i i there is almost a therapeutic quality to to reading your ex to read it right where does reading or watching or enjoying or viewing your work and i'm just interested because obviously you know you're huge on instagram and instagram isn't something i normally associate with something calming or therapeutic or relaxing right and just wondering how you um how you feel about using that platform which i think in some ways uh in other contexts items are anxiety people compare themselves to what they see on screen and and sort of interspersed in all of that um is your work which kind of you know if you're scrolling through a feed it does break it up but but that is what i'm saying what i'm asking essentially is are there pitfalls and using these kinds of platforms and or do you think that you're actually bringing something um refreshing and different to them um i mean you know there are pitfalls in in going on instagram um in itself i i think i think um it all depends how you use it um but yeah obviously it can be a rabbit hole that you get lost in and end up comparing yourself endlessly to others um and and i think my journey with instagram was began in a very silly way and i just put up cartoons of silly things and thought eight people would like them and it was it was just fun and then i would put drawings up of things and and then i guess for me instagram changed when i put up a drawing of the boy saying to the horse what's the bravest thing you've ever said and the horse said help and i'll always remember the reaction and also the comments that i read and i thought to myself you know wow because i've spent a lot of years making quite intense drawings that got minimal reaction then you write you do this and it's like an explosion and i i suppose my my understanding is from the comments that i've read that it's helped people and if i can make images that go on to a platform that give people courage to continue life and choose not to you know harm themselves or choose not to compare themselves or to be kind to themselves or or any of those things then i i'm glad that i'm there um um i i don't know if i'm even answering your question really um no i bang on my question i think it's okay it's exactly hot i think you're you are in my mind at least taking a platform which um in sort of woven throughout it our problematic messages are you know and when we see people on instagram who who appear perfect we're skype out but your message in that reminds us of each other's vulnerabilities and therefore you know one feels left alone i think that really is what your instagram account does and well then thank you i mean i i think we all have struggles and you know i think if we can all realize that that we're all very similar in that um i can't remember who said it but someone said we read so that we don't feel alone um might be in csv someone anywhere i remember thinking you know if you can make images that show us each other that help us realize that we we were all really quietly struggling with very similar issues that manifest themselves obviously you know the detail is different but generally speaking we have deep down same fears and hopes and dreams and senses of inadequacy and you know but actually were enough and you know if you can speak into that um and i i kind of did it without really really fully realizing what i was doing to begin with i think um i think i only realized when i read the comments what what do you think it was sounding to all of those comments that in society that that made so many people feel like they can't ask them because we you know we take it as a sort of assumption that it's it and i think it is it's definitely brilliant as well but how we got to this point where where that's where that in itself is brave and challenging to do yeah i mean i think well you know i think possibly i mean there are two there are two questions that pervaded me well one will it work so is there any point to it and also will i look weak or will it be look like failing um and you know it's a vulnerable act um and i think for men well particularly me i know that there was there's a huge sense like the number of men i i got a lot of messages from people in the army or people suffering with ptsd the suicide affected rates very high in young men and i've had lost quite a few friends to suicide most of them men and they we're wonderful people um heartbreakingly kind and clever and but i for you know it's hard to say why you know two or three of them we didn't really know what was going on there was no sign they were very good at looking fine and were very successful you know they had they looked like they had it all together and yet one day and i i it it's haunted me that like how what could we have said or what what could could how could it have been different um and i think about that a lot and and also i think a lot i mean i know we're talking about suicide it's quite an extreme thing it's not help comes ourselves can be anything from just you know but in this particular vein of asking for help you know um a boy came up to me in a signing when i i think when i say boy he was 17 probably 18 and he he he just said he was right at the back of the queue signing the books and he was standing there very quietly and i said are you okay he said yeah and he said he pushed the book forward me decided i said what should i say in it he said i'll just write your name and then i said okay and then and then he didn't move and i said you're right he said i just i just wanted to tell you something i said sure he said i just wanted to tell you that i i decided to stay and i said that's good um and i said i'm really glad i'm really glad you know um and he had tears put down his face and then i did the help thing and i said good for you and there was this long and extraordinary silence where neither of us could really speak but we so knew you know what was and then and then i you know he said anyway he sighed and smiled at me and then just just walked out of the of the shop and now for the rest of my days i will remember that moment um uh because all for obvious reasons um yeah well i didn't know why i'm telling you that actually how did i get onto that sorry joel um i i i'm sorry i think we were we were discussing why it was so so hard i can i know but i think that was incredibly powerful and vital to share okay i i want to i'll ask one final question with which might change change facts lately which is what's what's coming next and what's next for charlie what's on the pipeline um well um uh so this computer that i'm sitting at in this corner of the room is somewhere i spend six hours a day in fact after this i'm going on a zoom for another two hours which is making a half hour animated film of the book um yeah i had sort of you know rewrite write it we had to create more of a narrative if you like um but it's the four characters and it's it's consuming me um so that's probably next and then i've got piles of drawings in here that are from uh the last year of what we've been through lockdown and i i think you know there's probably another book to come i i if not for the sake of it or because it's a sequel whatever that is but it just because there's more probably more to say that might be a value um i hope uh and i had actually funny enough today i was thinking about it because lovely laura who helped me with the first book messaged me and said should i come and stay with you for a few days and we can talk about what if it's worth pursuing another one i said sure and i got an email from today this morning from from a flight attendant he said he's in a crew you know in ireland and he just said i i've been meaning to write you for ages but i i just wanted to tell you that you know what the book's done for us um he said not just me but we've been you know this we've been through a year of hell and we have struggled we've we've lost houses jobs you know like and um he just said you know and uh we've had your book and we we it's it's we've worked on it to it's helped us open up and be vulnerable each other with each other and process our fear and pain and he just said i wanted to thank you for it and he said i i it even has probably kept a couple of people you know alive and i i just you know you read this and it's like so surreal and and then and then he said for what it's worth you know there are other drawings on instagram that are not in the book and we've been looking at them and we can't hold them in a physical sense so we're wondering if you're going to do another one and um just to encourage you if you're quite if you're wondering so that's odd that he wrote that this morning and and i replied him said i was speaking to you today that i would mention the fact that maybe you know the timing is good um so we should start the journey of that as well uh and you know the thing is obviously you know the anxiety of it is you know talking about that it will will be will it be any good is it worth doing is it you know da da da all these questions flood my senses and um uh you know but i just feel you know why not try um with anything i think there's there's always an absolute potential to fail but but what's the worst that can happen and and and if it does have weight if there is stuff there that people will help people then i'd be very happy to try you know um and it almost document what we've been through you know um the process of of fear and worry and anxiety and isolation and uh how to speak into that how to get through that um how to what friendship is all those things um yeah anyway yeah yeah sorry i got you asked me barney wants another book okay i know our hour is coming to an end but i just wanted to say we we do a lot of talks at the union i think we've done about 65 this time but there's something incredibly special about speaking to someone who's so warm so humble uh so we're friends and so human and uh i think for so many of us your drawings and your work have made people feel less alone particularly i i i hope we continue the conversation at some point i like that very much i mean that that moves me so deeply that you know if it's helped in such a lonely time people feel less alone then you know it's an absolute privilege for me to have been part of that um and i get all emotional and i hear that kind of thing so thank you um and joel it's your final day yes in the union or the present day so congratulations you know thanks for asking me um congratulations thank you and thank you so much and for all you do and this has been been a real job actually i've really loved it i've really loved it and if you're listening hello thank you for listening i hope i made semblance of sense somehow um definitely did i yeah it really means a lot so i think thank you so much we're gonna go offline but take care and hope to conversation soon you too you

Channel: Cambridge Union

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Rating: 5 out of 5

Keywords: Cambridge Union, Cambridge University, Speech

Id: ed9sHYlR4s0

Length: 45min 4sec (2704 seconds)

Published: Thu Jun 24 2021