Great setups, Crappy results, and the reasons why. Take a look

hey guys go buy your welcome back to advance innovation sorry I've been off the grid for a little while had a bunch of big jobs I had to clear out then I decided to take a few days off and get some R&R you know if you work real hard you got to treat yourself once in a while you burn out anyway this is a video that I've been wanting to shoot for a while and it's about shop gremlins and things that just happen and you just can't quite put a finger on the wine and the how and the what's going on anyway it doesn't matter if you're a plumber an electrician a car mechanic a machinist it doesn't matter what profession you are the worst kind of problem to have is an intermittent problem and if you can rule out certain variables that could possibly introduce an intermittent problem into your machining environment well then you're ahead of the game right and you know or you'll be able to better identify what's going on with your parts I'm going to walk out to the shop in a minute after I put a picture up here on the board and I'm going to run a part and I'm going to set it up several different ways actually it several different machines not several different ways and it's going to look solid it's going to appear solid and I'm not going to make any narratives about what I'm doing wrong or what could potentially be wrong with what I'm doing so as you watch what I'm doing out of the shop see if you can make mental notes and go oh this is going to happen right hey that's not going to work and then when we go back over it you can pat yourself on the back or high-five the guy next day and say I knew it so I've seen a lot of people do what I'm going to demonstrate and superficially it looks fine and the techniques look fine and you would think that the setups are robust enough to be consistent but when the shop gremlins sweep in and all your dimensions start going all over the place you just got to scratch your head and go I have no idea what happened so if I can kill a couple of them for you it might make your life easier in the long run and certainly give you something to think about going forward back simple part simple stupid part we're going to have a round part small diameter maybe five sixteenths ish with a cross hole in it that goes through so looking at it from the end it's round go through now the dimension on this part you're gonna have an OD plus or minus five you're gonna have a left which is a little bit more critical let's just say the engineer gave you two tipped out and from the end of the part to the serve the whole let's call that two as well that's kind of close for a cross ball but just for the sake of demonstration let's call that two as well I have no scenario surrounding this particular small let's say 15 20 piece job that you would do in an engine lathe you don't have the material to cut it from to do it from net shape stock so you got to turn it down not a problem happens every day right simple part plus or minus five ano D plus or minus two on the overall two on the position of the hole and the diameter of the hole we're not going to worry about that we're just going to say plus or minus 10 15 whatever all right that's pretty good let's go out make one run it through a couple of setups set a couple of stop style machines lock everything down and make a part and then I'm going to say hey this is what's gonna happen and this is why let's take a walk well it's not an ideal scenario but the only material available for this job is 1/2 inch so we're gonna turn 5/16 diameter material down 312 [Music] [Applause] parks are two inches long so I'm going to turn it to about two inches 200 but there's room for the parting tool [Music] [Applause] [Music] you okay three 12 and a half right on the button right here at the nose you don't think for the duration of this job since I had my number at four on the dial and three cut seems excessive I'm just going to go from two I'm gonna split it 50/50 and we'll take equal cuts just to expedite the process [Applause] by laying a scale against your parting tool and keeping gentle pressure on it as you move your carriage in you can watch where the park for treats do on the scale you can get pretty close to a finish overall left it'll leave a little bit on there for face it off you okay what we're going to do that nine more times and then we're going to flip the part over and we are going to put a stop in a 5/16 collet and we're going to face them off the length let's take a look at that setup [Applause] if you're familiar with the 5c collet the majority of these Kaulitz have an internal thread on the end some of them actually do not so if you're going to make the investment in 5c college make sure you get the ones with the internal thread this is a 5/16 collet which is going to accept the part that we just turned down on the lathe well it should there you go now with the parts thinking out of the collet this long you can expect a taper from here to here because as the tool comes in contact and turns it it's going to push it away and as it deviates from Center naturally the radius would get bigger and the end would get bigger as well I'll bet you if I turn this around it slips right into this collet rather easy sure does ok so that would indicate a little taper on the end but you know what it's plus or minus 5 diameter who cares as long as it's within spec now there's a couple of different kinds of stops you can use for this this one here is for a solid rod screw it down it's got a cross hole in it with a set screw you can load your bar in and set the length of your part by adjusting the insertion distance of your stop if you're going to put a piece in a collet make sure the end of your piece is nice and clean because if there's any burrs or projections protrusions positives coming from the end as it hits the face of a solid stop it's going to stand proud because of what's right here and when you take that off you're going to find that your part is now undersized if you do have a protrusion right here and you just don't have the time to knock it off or you're going to drill a hole in after the fact then use a stop with a hole in it so any positives go down inside of the stop if the part is real short and the hole part is going to register within the nose of the collet make sure the stop that you select is smaller than the OD of the part and the ID of your collet if it's a longer part you can use an extended stop like this one here that I made if you want even more you can put extensions on the extensions and before you know it you can really build yourself something rather long so I have extension tubes I have extended hard stops I have a six inch all right have the screw type with the soft tip so it doesn't Mar never been a big fan of the screw type but they do have their place if you're putting a lot of load on them this little nubby card right here is my favorite and I am going to use this neck down stop I'm gonna go over the vise torque everything down and come back to the lathe stay tuned this is the final setup the little adapter is screwed in nice and tight this is a 3/8 diameter drill blank that's been turned down to a quarter of an inch on the end so that if I needed to it could come all the way through to the tip of this and we could do real shallow pieces I know that there's nothing on the end here the bars have been removed and the overall length of this part is set such that when I do face it off it's not so close to the collet that I can't get my hands on it so let's put this back in the machine face this off to exactly two inches and run the rest of them [Applause] take a nice small pass on the park initially a couple of thousands just to clean it up zero out your digital or your travel dial or your drop indicator [Applause] there's really no need to deburr this at this time because if there's a burr on the part from this particular cut it's going to be towards the outside and not towards the overall length of the part so it's not going to affect your overall length of measurement when you check the part check it at the very edges and check it in the center too that will indicate whether or not your ends are flat [Applause] 23 more to get to exactly 2 inches keep gentle pressure against the stop make sure the ends of the part are clean lock it down [Applause] [Applause] [Applause] you're going to be doing work like this and you're going to be leaning over a collet quite often and using a file to deburr the end of your part you may wish to take your file over to the belt sander and sand the teeth off and soften the edges of this particular side or one side of your file and turn that into what it's called a safest side that way you can rub against the face of this collet all day and you're not going to scar it up that's exactly what I've done with this one and it works quite well now that I know this piece is exactly 2 inches long I'm going to throw the other 9 pieces in and I'm gonna face them off at the zero setting and take it over to the mill so let's speed this process up and just take it over to the mill right away and not show the other 9 getting machine [Applause] alright let's assume that you know the back job of your vise is true because you just trans it and you know it's true and you want to find a specific offset for when you put your part in your vise and you want to come forward if you don't feel like trimming the actual part well you can do the jaw it's just like a translated surface that I showed you on the four jaw Chuck stick a piece of material one two three block anything that you can trust in your jaws and put somewhat equal pressure on it that you're going to use during production that way if there's is any movement or deflection you're in the same ballpark a lot of production facilities that use vices for production use torque wrenches on the vise to keep the closure pressure extremely consistent and assure that the features get so let's get this to kick out set our zero spot and we can move off for the centerline of a 312 diameter pin [Applause] whenever I pick up an inch with an inch behind make sure that the readings are consistent and I know getting this is a two hundred thousand or edge finder and it's got a center finder feature on the other end so I'm now gonna crank it in instead of going a hundred and zeroing out the digital and then 156 for the center I am just gonna go exactly 256 so that there's no lag time in the digital or whatever so here we go 256 that is 156 which is half of 312 and half of the lead diameter on the edge finder 256 it is now since your standard parallels you may have wider parallels but my parallels are an eighth of an inch if you have eighth inch wide parallels and you're going to put a 156 wide part on it well the parts gonna fried on the edge of the parallel and not the flat so space it out or use to I choose to use two I'm gonna reset the stop [Applause] Carlos a very small spring to keep the parallels together and pressed against the back jaw the projection of my stop is still less than the thickness of my part you want the centerline of your part to be below the jaws and we should be good to go [Music] and though that dimension on the print was let's call it 200 so we're gonna hit the end of this part and we're gonna dial it in 200 see what we get [Applause] okay guys there's a good rule of thumb for you you're gonna be picking up the end of the part and you're not sure what condition the face of your part is if there's a part off tit or some other feature that would cause those false reading then keep your edge finder above Center when you make contact that way any positive features in the center are not going to influence the reading that the edge finder gets and puts you in a bad location I'm gonna move in 250 Fowler if I said something different before forgive me I'm not doing this from a print this is all theoretical so I'm going to move in a quarter of an inch and I'm going to pop a hole directly in the center of this part [Applause] the same thing with the y-axis setting instead of taking your digital or whatever method you're going to use especially a digital sometimes they cross over from a positive to a negative range and the accuracy or resolution when it does that it doesn't translate so it's nice to have one continuous move so half the 200 diameter plus the 250 dimension I'm going to go for a 350 shift on my x-axis three-fifty [Applause] make sure the part is tight let's pop the hole [Applause] this is 316 stainless [Applause] hey love it now you will have a crown on the top and a crown on the bottom you're gonna have to put it back in the lathe and file it off but I'm set from my yn I'm set from my X in 250 life is good I'm gonna do this to the rest of the parts okay well because this was a theoretical demonstration and not an actual job I'm gonna say you know I don't know what happened the length of my parts they're all different the distance from here to the centerline of my hole well not only is it off from here to the centerline but it's off side to side I used solid stops on everything and I was pretty sure was going to come out good but well I don't know so maybe we're gonna have to call the boss over here and say hey guy got 10 pieces and they're all different you know maybe you have one or two that are too print but I don't know what happened I think I did everything right but gee not this time didn't work out shop gremlins swooped down and got a piece of this job so let's go back in on the board and evaluate all the setups and take a look at exactly what happened all right now some of those problems that you just witnessed out of the shop happened for really good reasons but if you're not thinking about what's going on then those reasons are going to be the reasons that maggots you and introduce variations in your parts and if you're checking your parts as you go and they're varying all over the place and you continue to make adjustments are you're going to be chasing your tail for a long time so let's start with the very first item on the list when you turn down the material for the very first time and you change the number of passes it takes to get from your net shape stock to your required diameter you introduce the variable into the equation that is going to give you mixed results if you change anything in the process it is very important to requalified that process or continue to monitor the result if you're taking three passes on a part which what we're doing and then you back it off the two because looks like a good idea the load on the tool is different the deflection of the tool is different the load on the material is different the heat is different and the deflection of the material is different and god only knows what the results going to be so if you change the number of passes even on an NC CNC machine make sure you double-check the diameters after you make that pass good rule of thumb okay now the diameter changes this is where you're going to get bit do you have let's say for sake of example we used a 5c collet for my balls on so I can see this here's your 5c collet profile drastic of course it looks more like an r8 but let's call it a 5 c4 4 yugs here's the nose cone of your machine that's pretty sad looking nose cone but let's just say there's your nose cone drawbars back here you've got your stop in your collar part sitting in the collet and this is where the plane of the tool is coming in this is the zero of your travel dial on your dial indicator on your digital readout whatever well what do we have here if this diameter of this part changes because I'm afraid it was plus or minus 5 and you said okay well it's plus or minus 5 I'm going to use that you might want to think ahead in a situation as this diameter increases it does not have to go as far into the nose color of the machine as a smaller diameter because as this taper draws back into the machine to close down to the smaller diameter well your stop surface right here is going into the machine so what's going to happen to the part if the diameter smaller it's going to get longer because this stuff is now going in with the drawbar while you're standing there boom so a smaller diameter equals a longer part well it only goes to prove that if it's a bigger diameter it won't have to go as far in before the taper engages the OD so there you go bigger diameter equals a smaller length so let's say this is your diameter here and this is your overall knife Oh al you're gonna hear me say that from time to time so get used to it overall my smaller diameter longer partners bigger diameter shorter part so the plus or minus five that you felt so comfortable with all initially came back and bit you because you said I well I'm just going to use it if you haven't dimension that you're going to be banking from as you continue to process your parts and you have a plus or minus five you might want to hold down a little bit tighter so you start doing and you'll end good it will make the whole job a lot easier so if the length of your part was varying it was the diameter that did keep that in mind God now that you have a whole table full of parts and the diameters are different the way the job was set up was a catastrophe waiting to happen to begin with you have the stationary jaw and your vise you have the movable jaw on your vise and because it's a through-hole in the part you can't dribble all the way through the part while sitting on a hard parallel because you're going to hit the parallel so you hung the part off the end of the machine this way when the diameter of that part varies as it gets bigger or smaller since you set your zero on the back job you have a constant to a specific dimension but as this part grows and shrinks that hole does all of a sudden off-center it's only because the OD of the part change that they hold is off-center another reason that hole is going to end up offset if you do something like this you cannot trust that the movable jaw on your vise is going to squeeze that part with any time of integrity if this part doesn't extend to at least beyond Center it's going to hit it it's going to kick and then when that happens you have a situation this is drastic so bear with me you have a situation that looks like this now this park doesn't know where to register it doesn't know where to register against the back surface or this surface so the potential for this part to jump around upon projection is 50/50 you never know what you're going to get and you're also only holding on the very back of the park because it's like sticking a cylindrical part into a conical shape it's only going to register at the very end how do you get around that using on a part take one of the parts that are in the bin or stage are already done or whatever and stick two pieces in the vise and no matter how sloppy that back choice when it comes closed and it hits the same diameter on either side it's going to pitch and you're gonna have a lot of integrity in the setup and the chances of your part bouncing around because it's not registered correctly it's going to be reduced I'm not going to say it's going to be eliminated because it's hanging out over the parallel and it could do the as you come down with the pressure from your drill the park could sag so if you want to control the centerline feature of a hole this is really not the way to do it we'll get back to it the dimension of the holes from the end in put it in you set your heart stop saw me do it locked it down put the part in lock that down all good it's fine moved in I know exactly what this dimension is because I just Sara moved in guess what come back to mr. overall length there because you let that diameter of the OD get bigger and smaller the parts have longer and shorter what happens when the parts it longer and shorter when you zeroed from the end of the part this dimension out the window this dimension is going to migrate and jump around with the deviations present at the overall length of the part safest way to do that and we're still going to come back to because I know a lot of you're going oh god he's just not doing that right so hang in there with that but if you have a dimension from a given surface you want to be able to make a setup that's going to deliver a quality feature regardless of what the part looks like so with a setup like this the better choice for registration would have been the hard surface here it doesn't matter if this part is 16 inches too long if you set this dimension here you're always going to have the dimension on the print so if you build a fixture try to build a fixture based on where the dimension is given from don't assume anything and just incorporate all the variables in your mind that could happen and get around the issue all right now the bigger diameter because I know a lot of you guys are saying that hole is never going to be on Saturn because of this right here because the plus or minus five on the print allows you to relax when you were turning them down park diameter varies if you're holding it sideways in the vise you're dead meat finished it's not ever going to be on center maybe one or two but not all here's your vise again if you have diameters of different sizes and you want to drill a hole in the middle of each one and you don't want to have to indicate sweet tram or pickup or whatever for each part then make yourself a setup that it won't matter you know what's going to do that for you a V block it's got a hard stop in your jaw's put a V block in here and hold your parts perpendicular to the back job locate your dimension from the hard stop the V is going to keep the part centered no matter what that diameter looks like it's going to be a symmetrical tangent on both sides that centerline is going to stay put and it doesn't matter if your parts are 20 thousands or hundred thousands in diameter by putting them in a V block and sweeping that V block on the first part that feature is going to come right down in the center of whatever diameter you sit in that bu Y okay you're gonna say well fine you can't push a big drill through because there's a B Block in the way don't use a static V block don't use a brown and sharp match set V block take a piece of aluminum set it at 45 degrees and put a notch in it that way you can drill right down through your part right into the V block no problem it's an S that's a it's a fixture put it in your box and use it the next time ideal setup right there for the cross hole the part is on the center of the movable jaw so the jaw is not gonna have a tendency to kick you're using a V block which is going to accommodate the plus or minus v variation and all of the parts that you did you have the end registration surface on the dimension on the print up against your hard job and you've sent and moved off for your hole so you've got your whole being consistent regardless of the length you've got it in the middle regardless of the diameter you've got a nice steady setup right here it's a win-win situation guys make sure that if you're going to locate parts for secondary tooling operation secondaries feature operations think about this think about the fact that I showed you that when a part diameter changes it migrates into the collet or out of the color now this doesn't usually happen with a chuck because of Chuck grip is his planer a little if it's a short part and you've watched some of my other videos you know that as you tighten it down it's going to kick so there could be some change in the overall length if you do it that way but with a collet and you start bearing in diameters you're definitely going to get bit if you don't control it so I hope this helps I hope you like this that's just some of the ways of ruling out some of the gremlins in production jobs and the ones that really will bite you the most of jobs or the errors that you're going to make are going to be the ones that are the most simple you're going to relax when you come to that feature or that dimension both gotcha anyway make a note of that hope you like what you saw I've seen a lot of guys do this and a lot of guys struggle and when someone finally tells them what's going on they say wow anyway joepie advance innovations Austin Texas thanks for watching that's all I got about [Applause] you you

Channel: Joe Pieczynski

Views: 160,350

Rating: 4.9497185 out of 5

Keywords: joe pie, joe pieczynski, advanced innovations, advanced innovations llc, shop hacks, shop tricks, machine shop, machining tutorials, setup a mill, setup a lathe, shop problems, inconsistent parts, WTF, how to solve a part problem

Id: C2WYJNI7KKg

Length: 33min 52sec (2032 seconds)

Published: Sat May 27 2017