Gospel Power Panel Discussion: Piper, Storms, Chan, Meyer, & Núñez

all right so we are going to begin with our panel discussion and before jumping into some of the questions just want to introduced those that are joining us for this panel we have Miguel Nunez Francis Chan John Piper Sam storms and pastor Jason Meyer my name is Jonathan Bowers and I'll be moderating the panel so let's let's hop right in with the focus this conference on the Holy Spirit some have submitted some questions asking for some practical guidance particularly with respect to specific gifts of the Spirit so things like what does it mean to speak in tongues or what would the gift of miracles look like or what is prophecy so could could you comment on what those gifts of the Spirit are really all three of those you just wanted like 30 seconds all right yeah well I think prophecy is speaking in merely human words something that the Spirit is spontaneously brought to mind first Corinthians 14 Paul says if you're sitting in a meeting and corporate gathering and somebody is speaking and God reveals something to a person so prophecy is based on a revelation different from teaching which is based on a text so I think there's a spontaneity God discloses something to an individual and then he gives instructions on how the first person is to be silent the second person is to speak that prophecy first good news 14 three serves to edify to encourage into console so those are its primary purposes later in 14 he talks about it disclosing the the hearts and the and the sins of those who are unbelievers who wander into your meeting they fall on their face and declare that God is among you I don't believe that prophecy is synonymous with preaching I think prophecy can be intermingled with preaching but I but I think prophecy functions in a in a different way because I think as I said it's based on the spontaneity of a revelation always to be judged always to be weighed examined assessed tongues that obviously a lot of dispute about that I I think the tongues of Acts chapter two were genuine human languages previously unlearned by those who spoke them I don't believe that's the case with tongues in 1st Corinthians 14 I have 10 arguments in my book as to why I think the tongues in 1st Corinthians 12 and 14 is a a a language imparted and crafted by the Spirit unique to each individual that enables you to transcend the limitations on your own vocabulary and your own thoughts and desires and pray directly to the spirit and so I do not believe the gift of tongues is for everybody I don't think any particular gift is intended by God for every single individual I don't think tongues is the mark or the sign of anything anymore than teaching is the marker sign of anything or helps is the marker sign of anything what was the other one miracles yeah the plural of Dunamis miracles every time it appears well this gets it I want to shut up and I want to talk too much I think there's a huge mistake that people make I hear people pushing back and they say well I believe that God can do miracles today I just don't believe there are miracle workers I don't know that you can find in scripture any miracle other than ones that God directly performed like raising Jesus from the dead any miracle that wasn't performed through a human being usually in response to prayer and crying out to God so I don't think give the gift of miracles is something you carry in your back pocket I don't think because you might have been used by God to perform a miracle in one case that you can do it at will at your discretion at any time I think miracles very much like prophecy is what I call an occasional or circumstantial gift dependent upon the time and the need of the moment God can parted to any individual and that doesn't mean you'll ever be able to perform another miracle for the rest of your life it's not it's not at your discretion and will it is that God's sovereign discretion and will for the particular occasion in which he finds a need that needs to be met Casa for clarification just take the gift of healings in would you encourage people to pray that they become gifted at healing or that in a given moment they asked for the gift of healing for that for that minute of healing and then whether God wants to ever do it again is up to him should should a person pray to become that's my gift well I know that's sort of think it's an either/or right but I would affirm more the latter I think and it's interesting even the ESV gets it wrong it says gifts of healing no they're both plural gifts of healings I don't know why they don't translate the plural as a plural I have to talk to our friend Wayne about that because it's wrong I think gifts of healings are our individual empowerment's for a particular healing for a particular affliction at a particular time now I've only had that happen to me maybe a half-dozen times in 44 years of ministry so I don't call myself a healer but I pray Lord would you do that more consistently in me prepare my heart make me open hungry sensitive to your spirit that I would be more consistent in the experience of that gift but I think it is utterly and absolutely subject to the the sovereignty of God and his purpose for whatever person that you're praying for so yes more I pray for example I think James 5 I think that it is the praying in faith and a gift for that particular healing is granted but it doesn't mean that again you could pray for somebody and you can see a powerful miracle of healing happen and turn to the next person in line who has the same affliction and nothing happens why because God's sovereign purpose for one isn't at that particular moment is sovereign purpose for the other so I would say of both end mostly I'm praying every time I pray for the sick Lord grant me the profound supernatural surge of confidence that you're able to do this and you're a compassionate God who loves doing good things for your children and grant me a gift a charism for this particular healing at this particular time but then I will also pray later Lord make that happen more often make it more consistent but I don't know if that kind of you know what can I interrupt right now just based upon what your message was Jason and about the quickest way to I think it was yours I'm getting everything mixed up but promptings to pray yeah that was you I just I want to pray for you Miguel you're back I you know I I just think what if right now like God just heals Miguel like through our prayer right here that's a way to close a conference like this you know like just just in faith if we could just lay hands on Miguel and pray for a healing of his back he was talking about his pain yesterday and I started praying for him he told mama it's better I got to sleep last night and I'm like man I want to pray till this thing is just done you know just a complete healing and I just feel prompted and I don't want to quench the spirit so I'm interrupting and you put intensive I just know your pain in your back is really bad well I was just sharing with Francis last night that uh over the last several months months I've been suffering for a lot of back pain and muscle spasm and finally we decided to do an MRI of the cervical thoracic lumbar spine and besides having orth osteoarthritis they were a disc found at every level and that was the cost of the pain and occasionally producing some difficulty breathing that time so that's what I was sharing with Francis and I was excusing myself that I was another he's session in part because I woke up with a lot of pain yesterday morning so I knew he's in a lot of pain just to get my session but here's what I'd like I would love to just pray with absolute faith just God take away any doubt any of that unbelief in me and would you guys join me and everyone just join me in this belief that God's in this room right now like he's right here he hears everything he can do anything I mean this is real now real power and real love what some of us have had that pain where you just can't even breathe and now out of love for Miguel and out of a desire to see the glory of God and a true belief that this could happen would you join me would you have your minds literally at that throne realizing who we're talking to right now and how simple how simple for the one who can do abundantly more than all that we ask or could even imagine god I lift up my brother Miguel to you Father for your glory sake Lord you on that throne this is so small and God I just think Oh Lord we talk about gifts of miracle gifts of healings in God right now we would just love that I'm not thinking am I bring right but it's just God I just want to see it I really want to see it I want my brother just going no wait I want to hear reports of this later where he's just gone it was insane it was just over way beyond I didn't even dream of this I didn't know I could feel this good lord things that you do I read about it in Scripture and doesn't make sense that it ended to me Lord this is your Holy Spirit please God please father please father I know you love Miguel I know you looked out and I thank you first and foremost Oh God for the great great miracle of repentance in his life to believe the gospel and know it's true like deep and it's hard to know that Jesus Christ is the son of God has a name above all names for ever and ever and ever he knows that Lord and that is the greatest it really is the greatest murder I really believed that Lord and God so we asked for the physical now now here on earth God not because we deserve it because we're asking as your children just asking for your grace Lord you've done so is to come we worship you we join with the angels in heaven you are amazing we love you in Jesus name Amen thank you thank you thank you brother thank you man let me just share something that happened at our church just a week ago and there is someone else here from our church that is very close to this person he could testify today but we say young person in our church is about 22 and he came to me as a physician some of you know that I'm a physician and I still see some cases so he came with a lesion in the mouth that looked very infected but beyond that just the appearance of it looked malignant so I called the the dentist who was working on him and I said this is clearly infected but this is not just an infection this is clearly something else and I just don't like the appearance of it so would you biopsy him and do it several times so we make sure that we get a diagnosis so two days later he was diagnosed with one of the worst lymphoma you can think of his t-cell lymphoma and these I know from firsthand so the church was praying for him and and there was a lot of people very sad it's a very young gov Lee man who everyone lost and so the biopsy was sent to here to the US for confirmation and that's when the lymphoma was confirmed t-cell lymphoma and then over the next two or three weeks the lesion disappear and there were a couple of lymph well we sent him to Miami for a PET scan which is the scan that just skimmed through the entire body looking for cancer cell the pascam came back completely negative there were a couple of lymph nodes that were slightly warm on the PET scan but very nonspecific so we decided to biopsy those they're also negative the bone marrow was biopsy that was negative he went through bone scan CT scan chairs abdomen pelvis there's no there's no one trace of cancer anyplace so there is one that just happened through the prayers of the church there was not any one particular healer but the church was praying and we saw it and that's only a week ago so and there's one from my church here one of our deacons so he could testify to this and these things aren't robotic or more mechanical so on the one hand we might have an experience of somebody coming to the elders because they're sick and I don't even know what's gonna happen just come in and oh this is on the agenda I wasn't aware of it and we all pray together and sometimes a person's healed and sometimes they're they're not but other times there's a few times I've had the clearest most powerful prompts of the Spirit happened in relation to to praying for healing there's one young lady that I was her professor and came to me one day in my office and just was talking about her child and just just weeping because her child had all of these holes basically in in his liver and it was going for for surgery and that they weren't sure about it and I just felt the prompt pray mm-hmm pray and I I tried to ignore it the first time no no pray ignite I'm feeling led to pray right now can I can I pray prayed for healing and the next day she calls me back because she was going to the doctor that day for the x-rays and everything pre-surgery and so she called me the next day and says that the doctor has no category for what just happened it's like a new liver it's like there's knows no spots no holes it's like brand new so sometimes you you the spirit prompts you to pray don't quench the spirit obey that impulse to pray for healing other times it's you might not feel anything heading into it at all and yet God chooses to heal in the pointed regularity of obeying commands of Scripture well if anybody's sit comes the elders and and you see the Lord worked there to do you I just you feel don't don't feel pressure no seriously I think that's important to say like hey I you don't want to feel like oh man I'm gonna disappoint everyone if I'm not healed as though we were doing something it's a sovereign will of God having made that caveat you know how do you feel right I came in better today yeah so I wasn't really feeling pain when I came in yeah but that could happen intermittently so I will need to get back to you okay see okay it has done I might have done it yesterday by myself without these guys you know I'm joking about that but okay all right that's I was just curious I was just gonna say in terms of praying for the gift the way I see it I I ask the Lord to give me the gift that he thinks I would need for whatever purpose he has for me in my life my calling so I'm not given to pray for a particular gift but rather or you know better than me what I'm supposed to do and the purposes for which you call me so whatever that is whatever I need just acquit me with it and then help me use it for your glory hmm maybe it's a jump off of what just happened to give us a chance to reflect on the practice of praying for healing how do you Shepherd somebody that you're praying for to feel hope and ambition in asking God for great things without being presumptuous so if you're praying for somebody maybe reminding them God doesn't always heal how do you do that in a way that that doesn't dampen the spirit of expectancy in this person well nine months ago we had the opposite experience we had another young person a deacon in the church it was forty years old with pancreas cancer Ken's carcinoma of the pancreas we came to the elder just like James says and as for for us to pray for him which we did and we even anointing him with oil and nothing happened and he died six months later as we pray for him we kept reminding him that we were doing two things one we were confessing to the Lord that we believed that he had the power to do it to do the healing and anything else beyond that even but at the same time we were submitting to his will we were referring to Jesus prayer at kids cemani know my will this is what I would like to happen but not my will but yours so Lord this is the same way we are praying this is what we would like to happen not our will but yours and um and we reminded him that our faith was not so much in the healing percent percent but rather in the sovereignty and the benevolence of God and the mercy of God to work in whichever direct direction the will of God would work but we did say we do have the confidence that you could heal this person and we would love to see it we would love to see you glorifying yourself in this healing but also we would pray that you will glorify yourself in him but the same grace if you decide to do something differently so that he may be able to testify about you through this illness which he was able to do so that has been a way that we've done it to two things I think that a pastor should devote himself in preaching and teaching to create an understanding of suffering that everybody in the church knows we we all believe here God can heal and that he doesn't always heal we all believe that therefore when you get together you don't need to enter form God that we know you don't heal sometimes because it's always preface in your prayer with now now we understand you know we're all Calvinists here and we build in the sovereignty of God you just don't need to do that because the church is well taught you just start asking God to do it and the second thing I would say so that's that's saying you do not have to say out loud you may not heal here you know let's all prepare ourselves to to fail here in our in our faith because because we know theologically that we might if you're taught well so make that a theme of your preaching second thing is you can always pray two things for a sick person with confidence one is that their faith would be made strong I always start when I want to pray for somebody God make their faith strong make their faith strong because if they're gonna die in six months I wanted to really die well I want to glorify Jesus in dying well that's as big a deal as glorifying Jesus and being healed so and then the second one is heal them heal them do unto others as you would have them do unto you I would like to get well so I want you to get well yeah so those always pray those those two things make their faith strong and now heal them and if the church is well taught you can just relax in that moment hand them over to Jesus look just a great thing to be done and a great thing will be done he doesn't treat his children badly I think that's true but there's times right when that person that you're trying to pray for just feels complete anxiety there they're there and they're wondering they're there they feel in the dark I don't think it's wrong in that moment to prepare them and say remember the lie of Satan that God your father's heart is limited and narrow and is withholding let's remember we're praying to our Father here who loves to give good gifts to his children his character is on display his heart is not limited towards you in any way and we're praying for for healing here we know we're praying according to the knowledge that this will be healed we know that this is going to be healed by by death for sure and that will be incredible that will be an expression of our father's heart for you and we're just praying that would he be pleased to bring some of that grace and gift into today suddenly that's not put in terms of oh I'm on the edge of my sheets seat I don't know do I have enough faith just grounding that in our father's character and heart I've found that helps people sometimes not that you need to teach them that every time but just being sensitive to the person in front of you and what might they need when they they might be well taught but maybe there's forgetting I run home to Romans 8:28 when it seems as if you've covered all your bases you know James 5:16 confess your sins to one another that you pray for one another that you might be healed when maybe the issue is not a lack of faith you've dealt with perhaps maybe a demonic cause of the affliction whatever you know you seem to have covered all the bases and you don't have any explanation for why a person isn't healed and I just simply say look do you believe that God causes all things to work together for your good you who have been called according to his purpose you who love God yeah well given that reality perhaps then the reason you're not healed is because in God's infinite wisdom and love for you there's something he wants to accomplish in your life and bringing you into conformity to Christ that he knows can only be done in spite of your physical affliction and maybe even precisely by means of it so it's it's it I don't hate to say it it's a fallback text but it's the kind of the foundational underlying reality we pray we press in we can we persevere in prayer for healing but if it doesn't happen does that disprove Romans 8:28 no that's the truth that we hold on to God somehow in the midst of my affliction and my weakness God is causing this protects of Romans 8 he's talking about suffering God cause all things primarily the sufferer you just talked about and what it will talk about in the last few verses of the chapter to make me more like Jesus now that doesn't mean you should stop praying for healing but if it doesn't come god I think you're so wise you love me so much that there's something that is infinitely more important to you in my life than me getting well physically and you're accomplishing that precisely by means of cultivating deeper faith deeper trust in your goodness knowing your sovereign purposes for me that's kind of how I know that this is this is good I think we can all just go yeah amen amen yeah but I just want to challenge something because this is new to me and I'm not a hundred percent sure of this I just got to tell you what happened okay this is I this last weekend like I shared I was praying and you know what let me take some time to confess to I lied yesterday in my message and even when I said it I was like it's not totally true and I said I was talking about the prayer time and I was talking about an amazing weekend it was and I said I don't have time to tell you all the things that's not true I had time and I hesitated saying some of those things because I was fearful of how it might be received and I just got to confess that's the only thing I can think of where it was just a lie and I thought about it afterwards and it's like no it's not true I just didn't want to say it at the moment because I was scared it may offend some people or I may take it could be wrong and but here's what really happened I was with a group of people who had a different view of healing than some of what we're saying here brothers and sisters in Christ I love I love their love for Jesus their theology is just a little different from mine and there is a little bit a lot more of claiming where they just say they believe that they can heal any time and that we're just not we don't have the faith and there's not the persistence and I'm uneasy with that and they they challenged and said look at the book of Acts how many times was it really a prayer or was there just an assurance which can go with what Sam is saying that those gifts of healings you know at that moment and those prayers of faith at that moment like they just knew I can't sort it all out all I know is at one point and this is coming from a guy who in 30 years of ministry I don't think I've ever really healed anyone okay like and even at this last time it was the night before the elder someone called for the elders to heal one of our pastors called for the elders and we went over I'm like man here is a group of men of faith I love my elders these are the godly as men I know I trust them so we went over like a gang like we're gonna do this thing you know and there was a trust there's a faith you know we're going through your book on spiritual gifts so we got this you know and praying with this confidence and he wasn't healed and I go man there I go again Lord I never get to see it well on Saturday after the all-night prayer all day you know that 13 14 hours of Prayer the day before one of our but but last weekend all sorts of people got healed in our church and this is new to me this is new I can think of maybe two or three people in my lifetime and so I I would get pried out 10 at least that I know of in one weekend and when they were praying one of our pastors wives karema she had a broken toe you know how it feels when you have a broken toe and you can't even put your shoe we were actually praying for her husband who didn't get healed that was the pastor and then as we're praying for him again the next day she says you know what can you pray for my toe also I know it's a small tip but I broke it you know we just had a baby yeah and I could barely put my shoe on this morning and so that group prayed in faith and they would ask her and this is new to me what's the pain level you don't to be nice just say it is a little better if it was a ten maybe eight let's pray again again you know like that's pretty good let's just say you know let's go again nothing you know well maybe a seven oh it feels better now it's just a little bit and hey don't be nice just be honest we're not doing the healing God is and it got all the way down to where she says you know what it's just this little sharp pain now this is crazy it's just this little sharp pain I would say it went from a 10 to a 2 and they like let's keep praying keep praying keep praying and honestly I wasn't praying because I'm at the point where I'm like maybe I messed things up seriously this is true somewhere I'm thinking I wonder if it's my lack of faith I don't want to assume maybe I don't see it because whenever I'm in the room it just won't happen and then I just thought that's a lie from the enemy that is so unbiblical like that doesn't make any sense biblically that's my flesh that's Satan and I just was prompted to be the one after they prayed for a while to get on my knees at her feet and hold her toe and pray and in my mind I'm just saying Lord this is not out loud Lord I don't want her leaving here going hmm yeah it feels better God make her scream make her just to where she can't contain like you moved is not emotion power of the Holy Spirit and when she just started gone look at this look at this you know and just praising God and tears coming down her face and then two of the guys said we had talked before you got on your face and we both heard from the Lord that last two degrees of pain is gonna come from Francis get that faith in him this is all new to me okay of I'm not making any statements of theological II I've been off or this or that I'm just saying what happened and then for others in our church not just strangers it wasn't axes or people I know that aren't fakers these are people that in our church we didn't even believe a lot of these gifts and I thank you Sam for even your book because it in your writings your teachings it it through the mind not through experience this is what I'm talking about now is starting to question the some of my theology based upon this experience I may be off on some things but the other stuff I felt like I was off theologically um but after you know through through I don't know basically I read his book and it changed the way thought about things okay I'm trying to sound smart you know you know and the ESV is wrong in one other place honking I'll just be quiet like that's that's just what's been happening and and it it for the first weekend I feel like people in the church we're feeling that acts too like feeling a sense of awe like what just happened we're not like this and these people came from a different a group that I have slandered in the past taken a sledgehammer to who dearly loved Jesus and I thank God for them imparting maybe just something new a new persistence in my prayer that we know is biblical and I never applied it to the gift of healing so there's my confession there is my testimony just a a word of caution for those of us were in the global South we see all kinds of craziness all the time yes yes so the first time that I moved to Center the Mingo I went to the funeral home to visit a mom who had lost her son about 10 minutes later a lady came in and the first thing that came out of the mom was liar liar liar you told me that my song was healed there he is dead now what do you have to say so there are all kinds of people declaring people here who have never been here you know and just putting what pastor Piper and Jason said earlier together certainly God doesn't need to be reminded as fight doctor pastor Piper said about that healing doesn't happen all the time but believers do need some reminders because of these situations that take place all the time I don't know how many of you know the book by Philip E&C from the 80s late 80s a disappointment with God the whole book begins with a false Hillen he's telling the story of a seminary student who really wanted to see in his own word like real faith so he finally heard about this healer that was in town and it was invited to go and see him so they brought in a doctor with lung cancer and they brought him with the embed basically on a stretcher and then he pray for him and declare him heal and then asked him to walk and he did walk and so he was so excited he went home it's a final I saw something real tonight and that's what I always wanted to see but he was still uncomfortable so several months later he finally was able to contact the home of the patient and he asked for doctor so-and-so and they would say he's he tells her there was a long silence on the other side and then a woman had spoke and said doctor so-and-so was my husband and he passed away so then he said now the silence is on this side and I didn't know what to say so he became very disappointed with God and then I think even walked away from the faith I'm not sure where he's now so that's a book that's that's out there by Philip ENC disappointment with God and because of that that's why I think the levers need to be reminder all the time our God glorified himself in healing and in illness and suffering as pastor Piper had so well taught so many times and one thing doesn't mean less grace and the other or less blessing God is good every time he works and every time he works is he's giving us a blessing and whichever way he moved so I would just wanted to come in and then I I would I always caution people avoid declarative statements unless you have explicit biblical warrant for doing so I've been praying for the six since you know really since I came to believe in the gift of spirit since 1988 prayed for thousands of people twice among those thousands I've made a declarative statement and I think I had grounds because I believe God granted me the gift of faith and oftentimes the gift of faith combines with with a gift for healing and the gift of faith isn't what all of you all are experiencing right now or what John was talking about we talked about that middle T of trust the gift of faith I love Don Carson's explanation he says it's that supernatural surge of confidence that enables you to believe something for which you don't have explicit biblical warrant I don't have explicit biblical warrant to declare to somebody they're gonna be healed unless God just supernaturally and sovereignly grants me the inability to doubt and it's happened twice in my life so I mean it very very very very very rarely unfortunately there are some in in ministry and out of good intentions obviously they feel like if they don't they're somehow letting God down they make these declarative statements and these promises that lead to the kind of disillusionment and and crushing of people's confidence in God's goodness that you just described so be wary of making declarative statements unless you have explicit biblical war for doing so no like I said there are exceptions when the gift of faith combines with a gift for healing I love what Lloyd Jones says about the gift of faith he said something similar that it's it's that supernatural surge of confidence where this is gonna happen I don't know how I know but this that God is just it's coming in like a flood but this is gonna happen and then he said and one aspect of the glory of Christ is that he always had that what a what a wonder to realize in that moment that sense of faith was something that Jesus had always shift topics somewhat we had someone asked a question about the recent the me to campaign in the church to hashtag on Twitter with these stories that are coming out especially in a lot of public figures that whose deeds have been exposed with regard to sexual abuse how do we make our churches a place where particularly women who have been victimized by sexual abuse feel safe feel cared-for feel protected and feel heard let's give a quick word of testimony about that when this thing broke initially with Harvey Weinstein and then it just spread everywhere I called a meeting of all our female staff members and got them away from the guys and we we sat in a room together and I did this also with our children's coordinators who oversee our children's ministry got in ahead of private meeting with them and I said I just want all of you to know that if there is ever anything that has ever said to you whether in jest or anything that is done any kind of physical contact that makes you feel in any way vulnerable or violated you come to me and you tell me and I want you to know you will not be putting your job or your employment in jeopardy for doing that and to see the looks on their faces when they heard that in both cases now does that guarantee that something bad won't happen no but they need to hear from us as pastors I'm gonna I'm gonna lay down my my life to provide a safe environment for you and if anybody at any level whether it's a lay person that pastor an elder ever says something that makes you feel really uncomfortable that you think has crossed a boundary you come tell me and I'll address it that's one thing that that I did and I think we need from the pulpit teaching on what abuse is in all of its various forms whether it's sexual whether it's spiritual abuse whether it's physical abuse emotional abuse and again the the power the spirit can be at work even in those moments that you're teaching we had one person at our church that have been through a really horrible relationship a dating relationship had been experienced some physical abuse and emotional abuse and in the sermon that I preached on domestic abuse her testimony was that I felt in that moment I'd always thought I know this is wrong I know this is wrong but but that that victim thing like in the preaching of the sermon I felt God's strong hand put parts of me back together again and feeling healing from it so it's not simply in the closed-door meetings but believing that God can heal that - and and speak into it and that the rest of the church can hear it and be be chastened as well and have things click in their minds just to add something else on top of what already has been said I think godly character on the part of the scheppers and then closeness to the sheep or requirements so that they could feel safe in common and talking and sharing as a physician and then as a pastor of I have heard all kinds of stories from A to Z but what I had found most helpful is that people feel safe in telling you for two reasons number one that you would understand them that you would pray for them sometimes you would even cry with them how much empathy is there and to that you would not tell anyone but there has to be cultivated among the leadership of the entire church because there are some people that are not as close to me as they are to other leaders so I don't think the church today makes enough emphasis on godly character and then secondly Shepherd should smell like sheep so we need to walk close to them so that they would know that we can be trusted and I think the lack of trust is the main reason why people wives children young and close don't get close to whoever the husband the parents or the pastor because I don't trust you and and we communicate that sometimes from the pulpit sometimes because we're not godly in our walk and sometimes because all the people have come to you and you have not been sensitive and pathetic and then they go out and they tell others so that's the climate so the church needs to be a place where people could say this is the safest place that I have that I could find in my community where I could go if I cannot tell it here and there's no other place that I could go to so I think that would help with all their sins as well homosexuality drinking pornography oh no no no no he goes with that though and I think you'd agree with this I think I'm not supposed to say it like being close to the sheep but for like with the women like I really keep my distance there was sin in my life as I mean there's still sin in my life you know but it was so strong in my teen years and even when I first entered into ministry my early 20s that I just had to set up serious boundaries with women to where I eventually just I can't even counsel you know when I did counsel it would you know and and so with that I like I when I travel and I'm spending the nights and when I'm bringing someone with me I'm I I won't be in a even a car alone even like a a two minute ride with another woman alone like sorry you're gonna have to Boober you know meet you there where there's a group of people I mean it seems silly but there's such parameters to the point where my my own staff the women and the staff for years of course everyone at some point had a complaint like Francis doesn't like me Francis doesn't like me it's like no it's not that I just I'm I just have some real boundaries and so I I'm assuming you you're saying yes get close enough to smell them but I I'm more like say I don't even want that like I don't smell you have my wife smell you you know like there's other people that will get that close in light of all yeah well said but a couple of things in our church every ministry there is a couple on top of that ministry so that leader is always Mary for that one reason yeah and number two in our offices all the walls and doors are glass okay so you are constantly under observation precisely as to observe those parameters that you were saying by either men physically to smell your clothes tonight no I but a level of closeness with the Sheep but that includes your wives obviously the wives are the leadership in the church and on that topic we someone else asked a question I think in light of when it came out that Mike Pence had shared that he doesn't have dinner with a woman that's not his wife I think there was a fresh wave of discussion about what's been called the Billy Graham rule which Billy Graham had the principle that he wouldn't have dinner with a woman that was not his wife and I think there's been some dialogue about how especially for for men that are leading in the church what is wisdom look like in being guarded in our relationships with women that are not our wives but but acting in a way that doesn't make them feel like a threat I think they can sense immediately whether you perceive them as a threat or whether there's a warmth and a welcoming and an excitement to talk to them and pray with them and but as long as it's always kept clear what the relationship is so there there are parameters that can be natural safe boundaries but within that there can be warmth so that they don't feel like I'm a I'm an inconvenience or a distraction or a threat or you you're just not very comfortable with me I mean there's a way to not be like this but still to be like this so what does that look like how do you communicate warmth to sisters in Christ because I think among many women there's there's a sense of when they hear maybe something like what Francis is sharing this sense of I it can in some ways be stifling or or feel oppressive to feel like they're the ones that are the problem you're trying to keep them away so how do you encourage that that sort of relational warmth still having proper boundaries in place so Paul says to Timothy regard younger women as sisters so what's my relationship like with my earthly sister I mean I love talking to her there's an eagerness and a warmth of I'm really happy to see you there can be that gets communicated in all kinds of nonverbal ways and it can be explicit but everybody knows something of the difference when it becomes sexualized or sensual eyes or whatever there's there's ways to talk to somebody that says I'm really glad to see you without making them feel uncomfortable the other way yeah and my make sure you guys understand I probably gone overboard in my weakness and I also feel like I've had an improper view of some of this of the strength I can have in the spirit to see these women as as sisters and a lot of this was when I read your article about what you would write to it would be adulterer and what the grace of God over your life in just the way that he's allowed you to view women it it really freed a lot of us on our staff like gosh maybe I've just believed the lie that I couldn't get to that point to see them as sisters and and I think I bought into that as well and so I'm growing in this I do think I'm warmer you know but you know and just trying to figure where that line is that I'm curious well pastors some time or another have in have you ever been invited out to lunch breakfast or dinner by a woman I never have so so why would I ever do that I mean I've invited I said Anna and I would love to get together with you over breakfast over lunch it's always an and I but I I have oh no I'm kidding no but but rarely because people know my stance but sometimes you're going into a place and like sometimes even go to a conference and they'll like my assistant checks and they were gonna have a woman drive me somewhere you know or she'll take you whoa what was you know and and she puts the kibosh on that but but there are times where they just say hey can we meet for breakfast can we meet for lunch it has happened I think it's just it's more like it's so normal in certain circles and it's not like them pursuing me in any way it's just in their circles it's fine and so it wasn't in any advance type of way it's just more like hey can we meet here and I just say no I don't do that Francis you're a first for a lot of things and that's by the way and let me just say this if some of you think those guys sounds really legalistic I mean come on lighten up let me tell you all it takes is one false slanderous comment about you and your minister can be destroyed can be utterly unjustified warrantless false and tragically it's it's so unjust but one one time and it can destroy your reputation and you'll never get it back amen maybe to conclude our time I'd love to hear from you all about I think a lot of times in conferences like these brothers and sisters that are here can see prominent speakers and rejoice in successes in their ministry and then feel a sense of I don't measure up to that kind of a standard I'm not as enthusiastic or I don't have as many people going to my church or I'm not as gifted rhetorically what would be your encouragement to brothers and sisters that might come away from a conference like this feeling a sense of discouragement well we're usually not very good at being able to to judge ministry effectiveness and the ministry effectiveness perhaps that you think you see can be deceptive and so you know one of the things I feared with speaking on lloyd-jones and and how night and day different he's trying to make preaching in the spirit and preaching in the flesh of course there are degrees sometimes you're gonna be preaching and you feel like certainly that did nothing he felt that too and then would find out years later whoa that happened had no idea I mean John Flavel preaching as a Puritan preached a sermon when Luke Short was an eighteen year old and subsequently then Luke short and his family moved to America and when Luke short 82 years later was celebrating his 100th birthday he was reflecting back on his life and time in in England and he remembered oh there was that church and that guy that was telling people we were under the wrath of God is stupid stuff and then suddenly it hit him oh my I'm under the wrath of God and he remembered enough about the sermon that the Spirit brought to mind about Christ becoming a curse so that we could be received and eighty-two years after that sermon he became a believer so take the long view that were doesn't return empty we might have no idea what the Lord's are doing but he's working I have done several different things to be able to deal with with that number one to realize that whatever God gives to me or to Pastor John those are the blessings that he purpose for us according to the calling that he has given to each one of us number one number two if God gave Pastor John the passion for God and the way that comes through his preaching I should celebrate that because God gave it to him even if I don't have it right then becoming envious number three which I did today as I listened to him I asked God to give me some of that because that would enrich my ministry so rather than being envious or jealous about something that God has given to him I should celebrate it and then I could say Lord you know what it would like some or bad passion as well and then just rest peacefully that God may do that or may not and but I think we need to learn to celebrate God's gift to other people preachers in whatever and whatever degree and also whatever that may be leadership not everyone is gifted as a leader the same way and even in the Bible you know people get one talent two talents three talents I think in our society we want everyone to be exactly the same and have the same level of intelligence and an equal opportunity for everything but God doesn't hasn't done it that way sovereignly he has chosen one over another suddenly he has gifted one more than another sovereignly he has made some people more intelligent than than others and we should be able to celebrate to celebrate that I said that I have a triangle that I used quite frequently in counseling but I use it from my own life these expectations here were are they here is acceptance I need to accept whatever God has given to me as good and valid and then there is gratitude so if I could get that triangle imbalance all the time I feel significantly better not expecting to be the best preacher the best doctor the best of anything ayah said what I have and what I don't have and I'm grateful for what I have because by the grace of God I am Who I am under the grace of God I'm now who I was or maybe who I'm not right now so I think we need a lot of that together to be able to say Lord I'm celebrating you gift over pastor Piper or Jason or whatever Sam storm I asked the Lord for to give me the ability to pray as long as Francis was something oh he was praying recently so I'm celebrating that whether I agree or disagree in certain areas of theology with him I could still appreciate certain things that God wants me to do like praying and and fervently and so that's the way I've done it and when I have felt any degree of jealousy or envy which I think all of us probably has felt that at some point in our lives I confess that I repent and say Lord I don't want to go that way anymore amen in light of what you were sharing earlier about specific promises for that moment or that issue I think of Ephesians 2:10 for we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them I think about the promise to Jeremiah that before I even formed in your mother's womb I knew you and I already determined that you were gonna be a prophet to the nation's for us to believe these promises at those times and to encourage people look this is we're about something that was chosen before the foundation of the world I mean some of us and I learned this about myself this last year I am good at taking his commands seriously and sometimes I'm not so good at taking his promises seriously and trembling at his promises and going god almighty said he knew me before you know he even formed me in his mother's womb and he had these works for me to do and he he said there were these things that he determined beforehand that I should walk in them and you know then you see in first Corinthians that every part of the body you can't say I don't need you these are promises there are certain things he made me to do that you won't be able to do and and to believe that about myself as well as celebrate oh man I am glad that God's given you this gift I'm glad you can correct the ESV I'm glad you know like I'm grateful for that but at the same time claiming the promise for myself that you know what I am so glad that he knew me before he even made me and he made me specifically for a task that he determined beforehand and to remind everyone of those biblical promises I know we're running late but just one minute I want to say something else about acceptance because I think that's where a lot of people are struggling again in older and obviously I tend to think more about dalian and I want to die well as pastor Piper said and I was wondering you know what would happen if I'm in bed for the next three four or five years or you know right before I die and would I be less effective or we talked about some of that last night and the Lord clearly showed me and I was so good to me because I felt that the pressure was lifted from me it's like he almost communicated these to my mind son if you're in bed when you die for three years for five your job of responsibility or task hasn't changed versus being in the pulpit at the pulpit you glorify me I'm bad you glorify me what change was the shape of the pulpit you preach for the pulpit now that has this shape you will preach from battle the pulpit that is going to be a bed died the same way that you preaching and living today for the for my glory and that just lifted the whole burden because now I feel that even to the last minute I will have the same purpose I have today to glorify my god the one who created me and gave me life and everything else that I have today Amen brothers thank you so much for the time that you've invested in us this past few days would you join me in thanking them for their labors on bite our speakers to be dismissed and then pastor John you've got some a message for for some of those involved in the conference yeah you're gonna clap one more time if your heart so leads you after I give a list of ten or things that I'm thankful for and you probably want to clap for each one but just wait if you're willing let me just say some out loud thank-yous and we'll be done the guys are gone thank you for them Spanish translators rene gonzales and juan been a that's that's beautiful the labors that they've put out David Clifford who oversees this whole event with this ami with his assistant Amy wiebel Jonathan Bowers sitting on my left here doing the host work all the sponsors crossed away premier sponsor exhibitors publishers Chuck's denim and mess you with your home and the wish worship teams always bless socks off of me the events staff and coordinators hundred volunteers LifeWay bookstore team put it all together so it takes a lot of people to put something like this together and it's always refreshing to me to be here and I know you appreciate the behind the scenes efforts as well so if you do say thank you those soaks by wrapping you

Channel: Desiring God

Views: 255,495

Rating: 4.7919998 out of 5

Keywords: Desiring God, John Piper, God, Jesus Christ, Christianity, Christian Hedonism, Spirit, Gifts of the Spirit, Gifts, Healing, Miracles, Tongues, Prophecy, Global South, Prayer, Gospel, Paul, Wisdom, Pastor, Church, Holy Spirit, Spiritual Gifts

Id: qEQ3CenOqy8

Length: 64min 36sec (3876 seconds)

Published: Fri Feb 16 2018