Joy in This World Panel Discussion: Piper, Storms, Rigney, & Borgman

let me introduce y'all to our panel we have immediately here to my right Sam storms and in an appropriate account with the name like storms is in Oklahoma City they can get them lead pastor for preaching and vision at the Bridgeway Church in Oklahoma City for almost 10 years now and if you need some help he nearly made it as a professional golfer before God decided that he needed to be working for the Lord instead so anyway we're delighted to have him here he's president of the evangelical theological Society he and his wife Ann are an interesting couple they have two daughters and four grandchildren and get this he proposed to her on their first date three of my children are unmarried which causes me to say on the record I don't generally agree with that but it seems to it certainly took in his case he's got some great books out if you don't have a chance to read some of his books welcoming the gifts of the Holy Spirit Packer on the Christian life knowing God in Christ which is obviously a play off of Jo Packers knowing God tough topics to biblical answers to 25 challenging questions and several others so we're excited would you join me in welcoming Sam storms and seated immediately next to him as Brian Boardman is the founding pastor of Grace Community Church in Minden Nevada he and his wife Ariel had been there since 93 a good long while he got a BA from the Bible Institute of Los Angeles otherwise known as Biola and his demon from Westminster Seminary out in California his books include my heart for thy cause Albert Martin's theology of preaching feelings and faith cultivating godly emotions in the Christian life spiritual warfare a biblical and balanced perspective and after they're yours the Grace and grit of adoption he's also a contributor to the women's ESV devotional Bible I'm not mistaken and so we welcome him please and I'm going to skip over the gentleman to his right and your left and we'll come back to him after we talk about Joe Rigney and I introduce Joe to you Joe is an assistant professor of theology and literature at Bethlehem College and Seminary Bethlehem College and Seminary if you don't know about the school you need to learn about the school it is in part to promote that school that we have this weekend here because of what that school is about what they're doing is an amazing work now Joe has good Texas roots he got his bachelor's degree at Texas A&M which yeah tells me he couldn't get into Texas Tech but other than that you know he got his mark I grew up in West Texas and we called Texas Tech 13th grade that's good that's good we called Texas A&M Elementary School let's see here's a he overseas I like this guy okay for an Aggie he is good I especially like the title of one of his books live like a Narnian Christian discipleship in Lewis's chronicles and if I were gonna live like an Arnie and I would not want to be one of the duffel puds but I fear that occasionally that is me and I see myself in the duffel puds of Dawn Treader anyway we've got them Joe as well would you join me in welcoming Joe and we save John Piper or dr. John Piper for last because I will be asking him the question first and the last should be first so let me introduce the man who needs no introduction he's the reason that registration for this not only closed within an hour or two but we stopped the waitlist at five hundred and sixty people because we just thought it's not fair to feed false hopes john piper pastor author founder and leader of desiring da-da-da org chancellor of bethlehem college and seminaries he served for 33 years as the senior pastor at Bethlehem Baptist Church in Minneapolis Minnesota he attended Wheaton in undergraduate school majoring in literature and minoring in philosophy I think if I recall correctly you thought about going to med school and God decided to use you to heal our hearts instead of our spirits and took him to Fuller where he got a Master of Divinity he studied from Daniel fuller there they discovered the writings of Jonathan Edwards and a number of other influences on him he received a Doctor of theology degree in New Testament studies at the University of munchin in 1971 to 74 his dissertation was published by Cambridge University Press he's written a more than 50 books but the one that that certainly was a focal point for me was desiring God and I'm sure for many of you as well he's got a Reader's Digest version of that if you just want to try and get through it in an hour but I would urge you to read the whole thing and not to shortchange yourself with something lesser would you join me in welcoming John Piper okay now in fairness to these men they have no clue what I'm gonna ask but they know the topic area I told them this isn't a straight line from A to Z this is an amoeba that's just gonna wander and take on the life of its own as we talked about it so here's where I want to start dr. John Piper I'm flying next to you on an airplane and I recognize you and I recognize you but I can't quite place you and so I see what you're reading and I see you've got a Bible there and I say are you a Christian and you tell me yes and I say to you so what what is the purpose of humanity why am I here what are you gonna tell me the most important person in the universe is the maker of the universe and he created human beings to know him and enjoy him forever and to live lives that magnify how great he is and that's why you're here now I could stop there because that's the answer you question but if he's still leaning in yes and I am backed up getting my pen to make notes I would say but the problem with that is you don't want to do that nobody on the planet loves God we love ourselves and our exaltation way more than we love his exaltation and therefore God is very very angry with us and therefore we have no hope that we could ever be happy forever with him namely we go to heaven or we go to hell and he's done something about that would you like to know what it is okay that's a wonderful place - that's not an answer I would love to but I'm sitting in this dreaded middle seat the amoeba meeps yeah I'm sitting in this dreaded middle seat and I've got next to me we're gonna go to Brian because you're on the other side of me and I just happened to look over at you and say did you did you hear any of that and you said yes because y'all were hoping to have an empty seat between the two of you as you are flying to this conference and didn't know they'd put me in the middle and I said to you I'll say to you what what do you think about that [Music] you're you're saying that Sam you're a preacher in Oklahoma City do you agree - I certainly do well but here's the deal I mean I was I pay attention to the news and there were 20 people up the road from me that went to church that got shot and got killed and I'm trying to figure out how if the purpose of man is to be Boneta to worship this benevolent God who's never let him down which church should I go to I mean I'm saying that facetiously that's not my question but I mean how do you address the fact that that that to me would be a letdown if I go to church and my wife and kids get shot and killed I think you meant that question for John but well my initial response okay because I'm having this dialogue with you I move around a little bit because I want you all to be able to everybody to be able to see you and then I also don't want to stand in people's way so I kneel and well people alright go ahead talk to me about yeah I think my initial response would be tragedies such as that are oftentimes inexplicable and I think we make a mistake in trying to theologizing provide explanations as if somehow if we can just say it right people will not suffer the pain of loss anymore I think the direction I would go would be to say isn't it interesting that we at whatever stage of life we live cling so tenaciously to the life in this world and the stuff and the pleasures that it can bring us and when in fact God has created us as John said for something immeasurably greater immeasurably higher namely to know to enjoy and to declare the great glory and great beauty of the creator of the universe and whether I have six months on this earth or 60 years and anything in between as many of these people did I hope that I could encourage you in the middle seat in the midst of your misery sitting in the middle seat you know you've lost a lot a great deal of comfort but let me give you what your ultimate and most glorious comfort is and that is in actually knowing understanding seen savoring enjoying delighting in this incredible God and not only for the however many years he's given you in this earth but for an eternity and so I would try to take that kind of a tragedy and the horror that it is the inexplicable evil that was expressed and say does that not awaken us to the reality of eternity and the importance of turning our focus to the fact that one day every single person in this room is gonna die you might die from a bullet you might die from a heart attack before this event is over you might die in a car wreck on the way home you might live to be a hundred and one and die peacefully in your sleep but you're all going to die I'm going to die so let's focus in not on who caused the death or why it happened but what it means for our eternal destiny okay that's that makes some sense to me I'm finding out Joe that you're a theologian that you you teach this stuff to students and I got to be honest with you you know John's given me this this direct question and I didn't answer but I hear this and it makes sense to me that I want to live and I want to value how I live and that evidently listening to you guys death is not a horrible end sounds like maybe an exciting chapter is about to start so I wanna I'm gonna I'm gonna answer John's question and I want to be a believer and I want to give my life to this God and then and and we do so on the plane but then I turn to you Joe who's sitting across the aisle and I say Bethlehem I've never even heard of the school I want you to tell me about the school and I want you to tell me if maybe I ought to go there to learn what would I be learning about this from you if I went to that school yeah our school exists to spread a passion for the supremacy of God in all things for the joy of all people's through Jesus Christ so the the the desire the the God created us to know love enjoy and glorify Him our school exists to spread a passion for that and we do so by offering students in education in serious joy because it's serious it was the combination of these two things there's two things you know about every human being on the planet you know that they want to be happy and you know that they're afraid to die that's it everybody you know what they want to be happy you know what they're afraid so so we want to educate people in serious joy because life is serious because you're all gonna die but you have this deep ache to be happy and so we want you to come study with us because we're gonna teach you how to read so well I joke it all the time on my job I teach students how to read they get to college and they think they know how to read and they don't know how to read they don't know at all they they think that they've learned how to skim a Twitter feed or a Facebook feed that's not reading and so they're gonna come to us and we're gonna take the Bible and we're gonna teach them how to read the Bible and how to understand what the Bible what God says in his word and then from that foundation we're gonna turn their eyes outward to everything else under Under the Sun from Shakespeare to Plato to the mission field to the Quran and we're gonna say in light of this book what's the meaning of all of that and and we're gonna do so under the banner of education in serious enjoy alright so within the framework of this I'm excited I'm gonna go to that college I'm gonna learn but I'm gonna milk for all I can this plane flight so I look over and I see this Westminster catechism that maybe was left in the seat pocket in front of me just serendipitously and I just haven't opened it up and I read that man's chief aim man's chief aim is to glorify God and enjoy him forever so dr. Piper do you agree with that yes can you explain to me I'm a little perplexed though because most people who are gonna write something this is notable and leave it on an airplane for the next passenger to read our this historical and and then it seems to me that those are two chief ends man's button but they didn't write it as a plural that wrote it as a singular man's chief and singular is to glorify God and enjoy him forever he's already been to our school he knows how to read did they have made a good start turn it off that's right did they have such poor grammar or is there a meaning to this that I'm missing would you help me please I don't know whether you're missing it but there is a meaning to it I just read a tweet this morning from Tony ranky which was a photograph with his phone of a page from benjamin warfield on the first question Westminster catechism commenting on the relationship between the chief end is to glorify God and how it relates to enjoying him forever so what I'm about to say is exactly what works I doubt that it was a grammatical slip and they used a singular the chief end not ends is to do two things and I think what they met was that the chief end is that we live we think we feel we act in such a way as to make God look magnificent so our lives are to be like a telescope not a microscope and when we put it on the stars which look tiny they are seen to be what they really are massive that's what life is for the human life is for and you cannot do that if you do not delight in God if your heart does not take supreme satisfaction in God you dishonor him because we magnify what satisfies us so the summary of that statement could either be put the chief end of man is to glorify God by enjoying him forever or God is most glorified in us when we're most satisfied in him I don't think it's a mistake I think it's magnificent I wish they had used by but they left that for us to ponder Brian tell me how creation explains this we read in Genesis among other places in the Bible of God's creation and in God creating Humanity is this something that's that's post resurrected Jesus or has this always been the aim and purpose of humanity I would say that that we have to understand that God as Trinity Father Son and Holy Spirit is always always has been eternally happy and himself and creation is in a sense God putting his glory on display and so he glorifies himself you know Psalm 19 the heavens are telling the glory of the Lord I don't think it's an accident that at the end of each day of creation God pronounces it good it's good because it's a reflection of his glory and and of course when he creates man is male and female the sixth day it's very good and so human beings are made to to not only enjoy God but in in in a sense to reflect his glory in a way that nothing else in creation does this has been God's plan all along and it will be throughout the endless ages so some people take the Genesis one passage where God creates man and woman in his image and say maybe that was a primitive concept of you know God having two arms and two legs and and all but I think most people recognize that it's something much more profound than that there's another level where some people say that we're in the image of God in the sense that we bear his moral stamped hardwired into our our essence our core CS Lewis is certainly big on that and and and and others and and and I think that's valid but the the Hebrew student in me wants to look at that word image and see that it's also almost a reflective word and in the sense that were made in His image we are made to reflect him to the world we're made so that when people see us if we're living our lives right they get a glimpse of him is that a fair thing to say Sam I think it is I we would have to unpack the meaning of image because it has so many connotations everything from the capacity to to think to do s-- to to the presence of a moral conscience but I think one of the things that people oftentimes miss with that is that the image of God in us is the that God created capacity for us to enjoy God with the joy with which he enjoys himself and to me that's what explains creation is that we have eternal God Father Son and spirit taking immeasurable infinite delight in themselves father and son son and father that delight being the holy spirit himself and God out of the overflow and the abundance of His goodness I want to extend this I want to bring creatures into existence not so they can shore up my deficiencies but so that I can shower them with that same joy that I have in myself you know it's the old full bucket theory about if God was complete sufficient in himself why did he create well it's no deficiency in a fountain to overflow and God is an overflowing expanding that the knowledge and the understanding the glory of who he is in us so when we talk about delighting in God you know going back to the westminster catholic catechism by enjoying him forever basically what is happening this through the regenerating work of the holy spirit through our knowledge saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ being forgiven and reconciled to God the Spirit of God awakens in us an understanding and an ineffable delight and joy and satisfaction in who God is and all that he does for us in Jesus and it is in essence it's it's are mirroring back to God the very joy that God has in himself that's what I think at the very core the image of God is and of course in the fall we turn that in on ourselves we don't look outwardly we don't seek to find that joy in the joy that God has in himself it's all self oriented its self referential which was gonna be my next question and I'm gonna throw it down to you Joe so some people out here may be saying well how does the fall change that how does the rebellion or the self absorption are the seduction or whatever you want to use to characterize the fall how does the fall change this made to enjoy God right so if we're made to enjoy God and creation exists as a display of God and an invitation it's what Sam was just talking about an invitation from God to join him and his joy then the essence of sin is the turning away from God as the ultimate object of our enjoyment and turning to the lesser images of him heavens declare the glory of God the lilies of the field show the glory of God everything declares the glory of God and instead of seeing those things as pointers and images and reflections that are designed to invite us into God to enjoy him is to stop with the image is to stop with the display and to fixate on that and the biblical word for that is idolatry to put the creature where the Creator goes in the heart so in Jeremiah 2 we turn over the great evil is when human beings who are made to be satisfied with the fountain of living water turned to broken cisterns that can hold no water and we try to dig in the mud and satisfy our aching souls there and then the result of that is then the self exaltation that John mentioned at the very beginning where we live our lives trying to turn other people into mirrors for our greatness instead of being a mirror for the greatness of God so we're always we're walking around and we're trying to make people use people to to validate and showcase how great we are as opposed to being the reflected display and invitation to others of what God's like alright so John help us here because one word that everybody keeps using is joy enjoy different forms of that what does it mean to enjoy God what is what do you mean by that have fun what what does enjoy mean in this sense all the words that we use surrounding joy have different connotations for the circumstances in which they're used and so I I doubt that we could get very far behind the words without simply pointing to an experience you've had so happiness joy pleasure satisfaction delight are in my mind all virtual synonyms but I'll probably choose which one I use depending on whether I'm talking to a 14 year old se or a 75 year old who's saturated in the King James Bible or whatever but what I mean is a spiritual sense feeling that is really really pleasing and now I've just substituted another word I know definitions are like that they can only take you so far and then you have to start pointing so if you see some husband or groom a bride on their wedding day walking out afterwards just beaming you-you-you would say to the person who's trying to figure out what happiness is well that sort of like that we find analogies that's what you do when you look for definitions of reality words can take you up to a point but then what's going on in here words won't work anymore it's either happening or it's not happening and so the last word I could say is it it's really delightful it's really pleasing it's really happy it's really satisfying when this happens to me whatever it is you might drink or God or sex or whatever but I use the word spiritual and the reason I use the word spiritual is because I think these are affections that we'll have between death and resurrection - trembling hands wobbly knees fluttering eyelashes stomachs leaping up just the whole physical animal spirits Edwards the whole physical thing is not of the essence it's hard for people to make that distinction but they can you can help them see that in the moment of their deepest deepest physical agonizing sorrow they can no joy and you can help them you can help them those folks over that just lost half the church we could go to them I think and in the middle of the night still weeping their eyes out find experiences in their life that I would call joy I know cuz I've tasted it and my mother died was killed in Israel 28 years old got the phone call cried for two hours I know the sweetness of joy through in that moment they were not sequential they were not alternatives it was interpenetrate so when I think of spiritual joy I'm not equating it with a rah-rah therefore I don't like the word fun you said three hours ago two hours ago we're gonna have fun today well inside I'm saying it'll be better than that it is so I mean kind of give him up 30 seconds so Bucks pastors come on when somebody says how's it going in the ministry don't say I'm having a blast don't say I'm having fun I get it I know why you say that but that's just a buy into our lowbrow culture that is so deficient in the kind of emotions we know and burying people and marrying people in rescuing marriages and saving souls and exalting God fun just is it good enough is not a good word neither is blast so sorry can I defend fun for a second yeah you ready to give a defense of fun I'll get you two there all right so I'm I'm pastor and somebody says to me in a light-hearted not in a we're sitting down and talking about the deep thing that would be an inappropriate way a place to do but somebody said how's it going he's you know how's it going with your team of pastors and I said and I'd say something like we're having a lot of fun you just planted a church you were having a lot exactly what people say that's what and I would say and I would say it and and here's and here's why because I see what I'm trying to communicate is that the kind of experience that my eight-year-old has when he's on a baseball field the kind of exuberance and delight that he exhibits and the word that we what's he doing when he's out there playing he's having fun that kind of exuberance and delight in what he's doing he's doing what God made him to do as an eight-year-old is the same kind of experience I have when I get to Pastor of people no it's not because because the the there's an overlap in terms of you could spontaneity pleasantness but then you stir in the rich stuff that's right down here and all the sorrows you've walked through with people and all the crises you've walked through with that staff and it just doesn't work because that kid ought to be having fun I like the word fun for eight-year-olds on the ball field absolutely that's where I used the word and there is some overlap to the ministry but the psychic the stuff that that word doesn't cover is God I'm just I'm pleading that it be there that we that we have vocabulary now if you want to say to your eight-year-old that's the best I can do with you you know we're having fun and he can't get anything else but ordinarily we need to help our people just get above fun when they're thinking about the riches of the ministry don't you think I I think I think if someone said in the casual conversation how is it going at your church and it's going pretty well I think fun is a good word for it okay there's a sentence we can't try to have a panel with some disagreement and we found something can I say can I say I'm finding this to be a fun de mental disagreement in here okay now in my brain these are different words in my brain Paul can talk about the joy that he has in plenty or in want I can have fun without being joyful I can just be living in the moment having a good time but not have that deep visceral joy that contentment that is part of joy that peace that passes an understanding that that that that magnifies the significance of each breath that I'm taking I can just be having fun I can also be having a miserable time and still have joy I can I can be in the midst of just horrendous stuff yeah there's a time to weep please est says your parents or your mom passed I've still got mine but I lost my father in 2004 there's a time to weep but it doesn't affect that deep abiding joy that you have in the Lord I just think they're different words I think they're both pretty useful I hope preaching is sometimes fun I'm sure sometimes it's miserable you got to deal with deacons you got to deal with budgets you got to deal with people who just bother you you got and think they're your boss I mean you got all sorts of problems as a preacher but you also have some things that are kind of fine so is that is that do I need to be corrected and yes you do but but I've done the best I can it's important to understand where John's coming from John if you know anything about him or if you heard him I read his books he is deeply grieved by the flippancy of local church life in so called ministry today the casual slapstick slapstick in authentic right in an attempt to gather crowds and increase offerings Amen there's not there's a loss of the sense of the gravity and the depth and the severity and and and the glory of what we find in God's Word and so you got to understand where he's coming from he's he's riding out and speaking out of and by the way Joe is not an advocate of flippancy and no no nor am i yeah I trust me if you ever heard him preach you'd know but I think that's what we're looking at the broad expanse of the so-called evangelical world today and it's tragic and there's so much that passes for Christianity or worship that wouldn't do those people in Sutherland Springs any good whatsoever and that's I think the the difference in the contrast that John's trying to draw Brian you want to weigh in on this yeah I think I do I think that we make a mistake if we say that joy is something less than an emotion we it's not just an attitude it's not just a quality it's it actually is a feeling and we also make another mistake if we think that the kind of joy that we're talking about is linked to the circumstances of life so if I can be anecdotal just for a minute so last year my wife and I sitting right there so don't look at me or I'll start crying and we go to the neurosurgeon and the best one in Northern Nevada and he shows me an MRI of a tumor in the middle of my brain the size of a silly putty egg and I sat there and he looked at me he says I can't do anything I can't do the surgery it's beyond me it wraps around both carotid arteries I know somebody who can help you and so I ended up going to UCSF I sat there with my wife and we looked at that tumor on the MRI and the confidence that I had in God was my joy at that moment the confidence that I knew whether I lived or whether I died or God is enough and it was confidence in him that was in fact my joy in a moment where I didn't want to die I've got the three best little grandkids in the whole world I if I'd have known grandkids were so fun we just kept having here but I didn't want to leave them I didn't want to leave my wife but there was an overwhelming sense of confidence that God is good he does good he loves me he cares for me and I had no doubt that every single cell in that tumor was his sovereign decree okay so that's an incredible story and and I can't move on to another subject without us just pausing and thanking God for who he is and what he did so amen amen that's um that's an incredible story and and in fact not just a story that's an incredible fact and and thank you for being so personal and opening it up I don't think flippancy and fun have to be the same I wonder if perhaps fun for me is a bit more of enjoyable as opposed to maybe joy you know Paul learned joy in the midst of Plenty and in the midst of want we have you can't read Philippians without learning the Greek word for joy I mean it's it's just all over the book but there are things you had the joy of the Lord when you were having absolutely no fun at all fair and then the Astros win the World Series now we'd have had the joy of the Lord if we had lost but it was kind of far Joe wouldn't it was kind of fun and and so I'm coming back to you John because I want you two to talk me back and continue to help me here some people believe that Christians can't have fun that they must be the sour pusses that God set up all of these rules that don't allow you to have fun you know when I was in college in high school the reason I would get invited to all of the parties is because I could be the designated driver they knew I wasn't gonna drink cuz I didn't have any fun well I had a great time I had a lot of fun and I didn't worry about getting home safely each night what and and I understand you've elevated a word you've said fun is is honor fun is a two on a scale of 1 to 10 when we ought to be at a 10 level fun's not enough if I'm hearing you right and fun sometimes can be flippant if Sam's saying it right and and I've gotta know I don't I don't like that I don't go to a church like that I don't like that but within the framework of this what do you say to the people who say Christians just don't have fun how do you answer that I would first of all decide who they are and what where they're coming from what's behind that because I think when I was probably in my 20s I were worried about that question okay don't anymore so my goal in life is not worrying about people who say that about Christianity because I I think what happened in Sutherland Springs is what we should worry about it's it's not Christianity is a problem not because its representatives don't have parties that are as fun as ours that's just not in the global scheme of things a big problem for Christianity so that I'd try to discern where are they coming from I might say so why are you so why are you so interested in fun like you're gonna die I mean can I tell you story so I'm writing a book two or three years ago on things of Earth so the things of Earth treasuring God by enjoying his gift so I'm taking God centeredness and trying to say what does it mean how do you enjoy God and enjoy the things that he gives you in such a way that it's not idolatry but it's honoring honoring to him so I'm getting ready to preach a sermon at Bethlehem on this you were out for something and I'm getting my sermon ready and I'm excited about it it was fun I was enjoying my sermon prep he comes by gets himself his diet coke walking by the office and and I said hey come here for a second I got a here's here's what I'm gonna say on Sunday and I'm gonna say you know God we should enjoy God and everything and enjoy everything in God and and the things of Earth can create categories in our mind so that we can better enjoy him and and so that that's what therefore is there's on create categories and I'm really excited he looks at me and then you die just like that and it was a very it was a very Piper thing to say and it was a very true thing to say and and I mean I had to go back after he said that I had to go back into the sermon and say whatever I'm going to say here about the importance of enjoying dr. pepper and the Astros went in the World Series they can bacon write the book was almost called beer and bacon story mark know so the bacon one time you asked I think in a sermon you called out you didn't know what bacon you sweet sour you know bitter and then whatever bacon is and I think somebody yelled back which was bacon tastes like it's like heaven so how do you enjoy so I'm thinking about how do you enjoy those gifts and he's gonna come along and he's gonna say yeah and then they're and then you're going to die which means that if you're gonna talk about how do you enjoy gifts to the glory of God you have to just face that that Square on you know your mom's gonna die dad's gonna die and and and what then when the things of Earth fail when they're when they're ripped from your hands in the Habakkuk three when there's no fruit on the vine when they're there's nothing in the stalls it's all empty can you still say out rejoicing word that's that's that's the burden right so my my approach probably would be to say something shocking like that and and circle around and try to draw out the deep humaneness of this person okay animals are frisky right dogs wag their tails catch not so much but dogs wag their tails I'm not interested in multiplying human similarities to animals I want to dig in there and draw out some riches that God put in this human and help them to feel they got some big issues to deal with here because nobody's doing that in their life media's and TVs not doing it if Facebook's not doing it Twitter's not doing it lots of churches are not doing it so I got this one chance I'm gonna do that with this person and then if they were still with me and I've raised some serious issues that they know they got to deal with then I would circle around say but you know what back to your question I think a person who can't laugh at the real humor that God has put in the world is a stick person that's wet I'd go there I'd go there and if they if they wanted to know what I meant then I would say we you don't need a comedian you just need to watch the world if you want to laugh just open your eyes to what God does in this world and Spurgeon said there is a world of difference between robust humor and levity that doesn't know how to be serious he's always having to keep the lid on because he's such a funny person and the illustration that I love to use is when you're preaching and you're distinguishing between a a dolphin who cuts against the current and a jellyfish you just kind of floats along with the cultural tide and you shout out to 500 people who wants to be a jellyfish and the three you know the four-year-old on the second row says I do and the place erupts in laughter and if you get upset as a pastor at that laughter you sick you're sick yet you want to hear you wanna hear the joke he told me once as years ago I remember we were sitting around and and you see you really like this one he said one time there was a Texan there's a Texas joke I think that's why you told it to me once there's a Texan who went up to Harvard to try to go to school you know joking oh yeah yeah so tell all the time what are the two or three jokes I know it's right and the Texan comes and he says and he's walking around they're giving him the tour and he says hey where's your where's y'all's dormitory at and then the tour guide very proper says so we we do not in sentences with a preposition here at Harvard and texting says oh I'm sorry hey where you keep your dormitories at turkey just like that actually it was where's y'all's library library turkey that's right he tells jokes not very good okay you see by my vocabulary and this has all come down to semantics but I'm having fun I really I'm also enjoying this I happen to have both of those going at the same time so here's here's here's and in some of the direction that I was asking it and and I liked the way you said I want to draw out something more serious because I think that that's a pungent way to respond but the song and my sister's here and I'll get it the quote wrong I always get it wrong she always emails me afterwards said you got it wrong again Billy Joel song I'd rather laugh with the sinners then cry with the Saints sinners have much more fun only the good die young this concept and and and what I'm hearing from you if I'm hearing it right is that we can do much better than fine we fun is is is an M&M we've got the family size packet I mean we've got fun on steroids we've got something I thought you were gonna say steak oh no no no not more imminent uh I'm still I'm still in the sugar generation but okay so Sam you've been silent while these three had been going at this what's going on in your brain well I'm just thinking about what you just said about why Christians are perceived as being killjoys and you can know if you're unregenerate you can have fun and enjoy the world and I think Christians are to a large extent responsible for conveying that image and we say well why are they that way and the answer without being overly simplistic they don't know God now I don't mean by that they're not saying they don't know God there-there is we're talking about the the beam that's Genesis 1 on his resume think about it boy if they we're talking about the most majestic immeasurable unfathomable beam of glory and power and beauty and truth and love and patent authority and justice and most Christians don't who are you talking about is that one of super-heroes on one of the Marvel movies you know whatever they don't know God if if we and that's what I think I think getting back to John's philosophy of preaching communicating the majestic splendor of God laying a feast in for people of all that he is for us in Jesus as set forth in Scripture and if that doesn't energize your heart and open your eyes and give you goosebumps and you what you stand to your feet screaming hallelujah then you still don't know God and so I think you know that we have the evangelical world has communicated this image because they really haven't seen God in Christ the way the Word of God presented and and is there any wonder given the way in which so much preaching or what passes for preaching happens in our churches today there's very little attempt what what you what you need when you come to church well I know you're struggling with your employer let me give you three relational skills let me tell you how to to triumph over your self contempt let me give you a five-step formula for increasing your income well no wonder the world has that image of courage now why don't we convey that image we don't give them God and that to me is is the greatest way in which the church has fallen short is that we have conveyed an image of God you know no wonder they come they said you want me to you want me to be like you I mean that's what your God has done for you this is the end result I can understand why the world reacts the way they did alright so preacher preacher preacher preacher here's my question do we see the same problem in our song service do we see song services that are more built around the people leading the worship team the in T right abhors modern worship because he thinks the songs are vapid and shallow and he wants the hymns of substance and it's something he rails against if you'll talk to him privately I guess now it's public I'm sure he's played it like all I can say he's listening to the wrong songs because I can give you a whole dozens of contemporary songs that are deep amen amen God I told her that I look I've had this fight with him will save this fight for another panel but my question to you is do you see a presence in the church where worship has become entertainment rather than honoring and and experiencing and learning to know God by being in his Isaiah 6 presence absolutely and I watch all the comment on it I want to hear I mean look your preachers I know you've gotta come in since I'm good I'll jump in sorry kick me um gently I perspective of Jonathan Edwards who said that the reason why why do we sing why don't we just walk into a church and project words on a screen and recite them now there wouldn't be anything wrong with that I mean we could see the truth of it why do we sing we sing I think God created music he created singing to awaken affections and to bring our affections to their consummate highest pinnacle of expression delight in God love for God joy and God fear of God reverence for God lamenting before absolutely as law and ever says and some of you who think gosh same gravitating emotionalism aren't you no I'm not emotionalism is is having an emotion for its own sake as an end in itself I'm talking about the deep heartfelt affections fear zeal hatred love joy all of these that are stirred and awakened by truth by the revelation of who God is in that song so I love contemporary worship not all of it I think a lot of its trash but a lot of it's also really really good I love the hymns of the faith as well but again the we have asked what is the purpose for it is it entertainment is it so we can get people caught up in the euphoria of the atmosphere and they're and they're swept away by the instrumentation or whatever else it is and it's similar to what they experienced in a Billy Joel concert or is it to awaken affections that are focused on God and again I get back to the point why did God create us he created us to produce by his Spirit in us the affections for God that God has for God that's why we exist all right John I'm gonna ask you to go last on this but I really want anybody else who wants input on how this in translates into our worship assemblies specifically our singing I mean I think that the singing and preaching should achieve the same end and that is to exalt God and to stir affection for God I mean it seems sort of amazing to me that will have stirring songs and then some talking head that drones on about the Amalekites it seems inconsistent to me but I think that the idea of what we do in our singing it is a reflection of what we think about God and if we're singing songs whether old or new the age of a song doesn't make any difference Isaac Watts was contemporary one time the the idea that that the words have are true and they have gravity and substance and they deal with the eternal verities of who God is and what Christ is done and and and who we are before him those are the things that should shape our worship and they will in fact then shape our lives our own affections our own emotional well-being and so it's very very important and if we go in and this is an you know one of the great things about getting to plant a church is that you get to just do stuff that you think is right and you don't have to worry about some guy that went before you and then get in trouble for it and so from the very beginning we've had blended worship old and new songs but songs that have doctrinal content because we want people to realize that what we're doing is is about God and His glory and our deepest satisfaction in him and if we just sing you know by the way congregational singing is what makes this work there's there's a marvelous dynamic spiritual powerful dimension when you have a room full of people doesn't matter whether it's 50 or 500 and they're just singing their hearts out to the Living God so I think there's ways even that you can have substantive good songs but performed with such musical excellence and force that you miss the point of a corporate worship gathering so I think well the hardest things for young worship leaders and pastors who are working with them to get through their heads is that the congregation is the main instrument congregational voices are the main instrument in the service everything else from the guy who's singing to all of those instruments that are up there are accompaniment and if the if the accompaniment is the main point then you're missing sometimes what they do is well we've got these instruments and we've got these amazing musicians so we've got to use them on Sunday morning it's like whoa nobody thinks that you got to showcase the plumbers gifts on Sunday morning nobody thinks that you've got to use the lawyers gifts on Sunday morning in the worship service there's a perfectly good and and right place to showcase musical gifts and musical talent in a spectator like audience setting it's not Sunday morning Sunday morning the main instrument is the congregation and that everything else that you do musically ought to serve the those people being able to sing loudly boldly clearly to God substantive lyrics and if you in so that's what our church that's that's the principle is if the congregation is the main instrument as long as we're keeping that central then there's all sorts of flexibility about how you make it happen all right I want to put a sharper edge on this but John you may want to speak about it before I put the sharper edge on okay difference between throw out two concepts in the light of all of this if you did incorporate this into your response first is a difference maybe between singing about God versus singing to God and the second is the different concept between where we are going to church being an auditorium where we're gonna sit an audit or a sanctuary where we're called to something more holy and holy ground and a holy presence so those words and ideas if you would incorporate those and let us know your thoughts on this because I I really would love to hear what you have to say well let me try to come at it from Christian hedonism which says God is most glorified in you when you're most satisfied in him so we must as leaders think plan execute to do all we can to help the satisfaction of the people be in God not the instruments not the worship teams personality not the building atmosphere like this one we would we should labor say now what can I do what can I do I want these carnal people to be spiritually awakened so that their hearts are connecting with two - not about - God I want this to be a vertical moment of authentic and counter with God and I don't know whether enough worship leaders ask that question or even have the spiritual wherewithal to ask the question because it looks to me like visually therefore grounding the worship team why would you put it on the screen no it's getting big trouble here probably so I would why would you put the worship team on the screen well why wouldn't you just put the lyrics up there I mean if you want to have a little stream flowing in the background that's fine but not essential but why is the camera going on her and zooming in like guitar and then go to the drummer and what is bad we have to make any sense to me at all sound you're looking at your pastor and I'm preaching there on haha I knew I was coming I just don't get I don't get that he's he's in process of reconfiguring the entire service and taking notes that that is just that says something to me let's leave it at that that you don't want to say then orally can the people here themselves and the people around them singing because the Bible says sink to one another so it's not just to God it's to one another in spiritual hymns and and songs so I didn't hear you I want to hear your heart if you're sitting here I got to hear your heart and this man who just knelt down sat down put his face in his hands like death like last Sunday it's about us it's about five people around him ministering to him by the way we sing if we can't hear ourselves which I couldn't I went to I went to church and I wrote to the pastor afterwards and I he said anything you want to suggest from where I preach and that's dangerous quit I couldn't all the only reason I knew I was singing is because I felt a vibration in my throat that's all because you're your instrument excellent instruments were blasted my voice into oblivion and so you you got visual issues and you got sound issues because that's right the when we had our moral meltdown in 1993 and we lost our worship leader in immorality and one hundred two hundred and forty people left the church and we didn't grow for four years because it was awful we we just put our face in their hands for a year of Tears and said who are we what is this about people were so disillusioned because of of all the ugliness that was going on behind the scenes in the worship reality Church we said what do we want the defining sound to be used to be an organ we have great pipe organ and he used to be a choir and we said the defining sound of this service is going to be this congregation singing or we're just not real see with all their heart to God and they got to hear each other and these folks up front are their servants visual servants that is get out of the way and oral servants help us don't replace us so though I don't I don't want to linger over bellyache in here I wanted to talk positively about Christian hedonism but but but no that's that's that I got opinions about everything I think that's very valuable I remember it made a huge impression to me when I was in college and we were I was a Wednesday night service and we're singing holy holy holy maybe we had a dialogue over lunch with about 30 people about what was your favorite what's one of your favorite hymns and someone said holy holy holy and I don't remember who it was but she was she yeah she said I like it cuz I know we'll be singing and in heaven you know and yeah the lyrics come from revelation and Isaiah both it's pretty good it's it's painted right up there holy holy holy so we were seeing it on Wednesday night and we have a song leader I mean I'm going to a church with Amy Grant Brown banister Chris Christian dogwood all of the early contemporary Christian music people and the singing was pretty incredible and the worship was pretty beautiful in terms of aesthetics and the preacher stood up in the middle Don finto stood up in the middle of the second verse he just said everybody stop stop it sounds beautiful harmonies great voices are great do you realize you're singing to God do you realize you are singing to God you're not singing for the harmony you're not singing for your neighbor you're not singing because it's so fun and it sounds so good Building Creator God is listening to you tell him his attributes of holiness we're gonna start this song over again and it changed I mean that that wasn't oh that was an influence in my life I turned a corner at that point in time where in the future singing those songs that are worship songs to God I don't understand how people lean over and say hey what do you think about this and this while we're singing a song to God and that's equivalent to while we're praying to God so hey what do you want to do for lunch today watching TV now let's have some fun when we get out of here it's just it's just an interesting perspective so thank you for sharing that can I add one other thing yes this will probably offend some people as well but you you ask the difference about singing to God and about God you know we see across the spectrum in the evangelical we have we've already talked about the entertainment Sunday morning flippant everything is you know I'm sorry if I've any fog machines whatever strobe lights and the worship and there's lacking substance and then on the other hand we have deep theological lyrics and and / and wonderful old hymns and here's the problem sometimes not always sometimes those who are singing these if you'd gone up to them afterwards and said you've just been singing about God and even to him how do you feel oh I don't need to feel anything I just need to make sure I said it correctly and I'm theologically precise and my grammar was correct and I and I followed the lyrics what do you mean feel this is as offensive to God as this is to worship the God of the universe and nothing have no affection of fear and trembling and awe and repentance and brokenness and joy and who he is because people are terrified of their feelings they're petrified because they see the antics of certain people on TV and they don't want to go down that path but to sing to God holy holy holy and not tremble and I don't mean that metaphorically I mean that physiologically tremble and weep not as an end in itself thus as a heartfelt legitimate sincere expression who God really is not to do that as just as offensive as playing games on the platform on a Sunday morning ok so here's what some people may be saying but we need to get people in the door if we can get people in the door then maybe they'll hear the message and they'll get saved so in that regard I want to introduce right behind me in a little to my left a tall lanky ex-quarterback who's Jonathan Fleming stand up oh boy he's just said so this is this young man I've known for a long time since he moved here from Florida and he's one of our upcoming young associate pastors and he's in seminary and he's working hard and I asked him this morning or this afternoon at lunch I said tell me about your generation what library speakers can I bring in that will speak to your generation where your generation is gonna want to be there where your generation is gonna want to show up and listen you know who he told me John Piper thank you he said and I and I listen to him and I'm gonna use my words instead of his because it's authentic and that's what his generation is looking for is something that's authentic real visceral and intellectual something that engages the heart and the mind something that's not platonic something that engages the body and the mind something that's that's a total human authentic experience whether it's the preaching or whether it's the singing now we're getting close to closing but I want to bring that back with that line and I want to I want it's not fair to call on John to comment on that but it is fair to call on the other three of you what is it that's turning this generation and we'll start with you Joe cause you're teaching some of them what is it that's causing this generation to latch on to something like this while the rest of us 50 60 year-olds are just kind of out there having fun having fun and eating M&Ms yeah talk to us Joe so you know I in college I think was the first time I was in college and heard John preached and the reason that it gripped me was because it was by I was a Bible guy and whatever the Bible goes that's where I want to be and the things that he said I could see them I could see them for myself I didn't have it wasn't just that John was clever he had turns of phrases and he's creative and he does words well but he could whatever he said that he could point at the Bible and say do you see it and that's what I wanted I was a Christian kid growing up the youth group and so the fact that he was helping me seeing the Bible I was teaching me how to read that's where I learned how to read and and and so that was big is theirs this isn't just a man's opinion this isn't just creative and clever there's substance underneath it it's the eternal Word of God and then and then I do think that you know preaching is truth through personality and there is a sincerity you know John is the same on the stage that he is off the stage and I know lots of pastors who are like that and they're effective because they're not it's not a show they're not it's not a game they're not putting on an act in the same way that a worship pastor can get up there and it can be about him and the instrument a pastor can get up and it can be about his cleverness right and he's using the people as mirrors for his own greatness and there was there's a blood earnestness that that we've been talking about about life and death we all want to be happy we're all gonna die and and John spoke to my generation our generation in such a way that took that seriously didn't patronize it and and that was that was different I think a big part of that quite frankly is father hunger I remember it passion when you said I'm speaking to you guys as though I'm a father speaking to my sons and and I had a I had a good dad but it wasn't a spear he wasn't spiritually he got saved when late in life and and I think there's a real deep father hunger an ache for somebody who we'll speak the way a father would speak to his sons with the kind of earnestness care compassion from the Bible so that it's not just his opinion and that that's gripping when God moves thank you Brian Sam I mean rightly or wrongly I mean I I don't actually sit and think about you know this generation that generation I think about the people at Grace Community Church that's you know from infancy to we have a guy who's gonna turn 101 years old and they they all need the same thing they all need the Word of God they need it preach to them with earnestness in straightforwardness and simplicity and and so you know for me whether it's dealing with our young people or I do agree with this father thing we have some young and in our church and I see that but I think that that really we all ultimately need the same thing and just praying that God gives that to us week by week that he's doing nothing less than giving us himself that's what a millennial needs that's what somebody who's in their 90's needs they need to know that Christ is enough and and so that's what we we try to do yeah I don't know that if I can speak for the millennial generation as to what the appeal is in John's message I mean he's a he's an interesting guy personality-wise I can just let you know that and but I don't think that's it I think John's a big God er you know Robert dick Wilson you talk big what a big daughter G OD d er oh god her goddaughter Robert dick Wilson Princeton Theological Seminary coined that phrase said I can tell in the first 10 minutes of a sermon if the pastor is a big daughter or a little guy John's a big daughter big God I tell you what drew me it's when I set down and read that first edition of desiring God and it hit me like a lightning bolt I would never have dreamt much less dared to use the verb enjoy in the name God together didn't register with me obey God fear God love God serve God all those things enjoy God that that was life-changing when I came to understand what it actually meant and it wasn't being flippant and using God as an as a as a tool as a shovel to dig for deeper treasure he is the treasure and to find out what it meant to find my deep delight in him Psalm 16:11 came alive you've made known to me the pathway of life in your presence is fullness of joy your right hand are pleasures evermore that that's what John awakened in me that's what desiring God awakened to me that's why Christian hedonism is Christianity and Christianity is Christian hedonism notwithstanding the critics and there are many who don't like it and think one of the reasons they don't like it it's because I don't like to talk about affections and enjoyment and delight it's all cerebral yeah my Christian experience up until the time I read desiring God in worship was I wanted whatever songs we could sing and whatever atmosphere we could create in which I could keep God at arm's length you know I'll sing about you don't don't don't press in on me and suddenly when I saw things like Zephaniah 3:17 which John's exposition of it in pleasures of God isn't it I believe it's just stunning God's God see God sings that's I don't think that's metaphorical I mean God's audible voice all through scripture why can't he sing God sings over his children us his passion his affection for us is that deep and profound so all of that just opened up a whole new world and I read the Bible for the first time I think and saw this glorious truth so John's personality adds to that his preaching style was passion obviously accentuates it greatly but it's it's the God that he believes in so passionately which is what our society wants they're tired of the frivolous surface superficial nonsense and they want reality that's what authenticity means reality was nothing more real than the God of the Bible okay John the way I'd like to close this our time let me check we have ten minutes and I'm a time Nazi okay so I mean we got ten minutes I want to throw out a couple of passages in Scripture and I want you to comment on them as our teacher herpetic illogical guide of Christian hedonism which some of you who are philosophy majors don't like get hung up on the hedonism part he's like don't don't don't like start getting into the epistemology of this stuff it's a label it's his he's claimed it it's good word phrase works etc but you know what I mean by that so I'm gonna throw out a couple of passages of Scripture we've got about eight or nine minutes and I want you to just comment on them as I throw them out fair yes okay count it all joy my brothers when you meet various trials that's a larger passage I've been in trial for eight weeks James 1:2 yes it's interesting that he does say count it joy he could say rejoice in it I don't think that would be theologically or experientially false but he did say count it joy so I'm gonna honor that that idea which which is just an illustration of what Joe means when I try to teach people how to read like take every word seriously don't dance around them don't answer a question that wasn't asked so let me let me leave that word aside for a minute since I think he does mean get to joy in your trials because tribulation works patience and patience works approving this and approving from this works hope and hope will not put you to shame or to use Jesus as an example for the joy that was set before him he endured the cross which I seek means in view of the way faith is defined in Hebrews 11 the substance of things hoped for that on the cross or in Gethsemane as he was agonizing as to whether he could do this that future joy of a redeemed people surrounding him and magnifying him forever in perfect happiness streamed back in to the present in some sustaining measure and held him because I think that's what hebrews 12:2 says for the joy that was set before him he despised the shame Andorian scars he could endure the cross because he knew he was going to rise from the dead so with us I think count it all joy when you meet various trials because God is as much in charge of your trial says he was Jesus trials and God was totally in charge of every nail hammer and therefore you should know God is working this together for your good and that outcome streams back in in some felt sustaining through the tears through the agony through the the tumor and holds you so the count part probably means if at first you do not feel it and that's reality right count it is true until you feel it psalm 42 and 43 I guess they kind of go together if you follow the acrostic as a deer pants for flowing streams so pants my soul for you oh god my soul thirsts for God for the Living God when shall I come and appear before God my tears have been my food day and night while they say to me all day long where is your God these things I remember as I pour out my soul how I would go with the throng and lead them in procession to the house of God with glad shouts and songs of praise a multitude keeping festival I would suggest the psalmist gives himself the cheerleading talk but still remains why are you cast down O my soul and why are you disquieted within me hope in God for I shall yet praise Him my salvation and my God and he walks through the whole process again and then a third time in Psalm 43 comment please yeah on the side of our sanctuary for twenty years before they tore it down in in 2004 so for 24 years there was this mammoth sign hope in God quote from chapter 42 verse 543 and it was because John Piper is so wired the way that psalmist reads and I think Jonathan that one of the reasons people like me is because I have so many struggles i mean john macarthur when we were sitting argument each other about whether you should ever cry when you don't feel like it he would just look at me soon what you know i think so why are you done cast on my soul and why are you disquieted within me hope in God I mean Martyn lloyd-jones wrote a whole book on that verse on spiritual depression preach to yourself you gotta preach to yourself the world's preaching at you your conscience is preaching at you the devil's preaching at you if you don't preach yours your son you're gone if you don't preach truth to yourself and so you preach hope in God so they put it through with a hope in God Church because the pastor is barely surviving he's walking to church every day saying hoping comes hoping God someone's gonna be okay hope in God and you know there's my wife I'm not blowing smoke here there are the pastoral role is a very embattled role I mean being human is in battle but pastors they they are hated by Satan and so that those Psalms are a model of how one fights for joy which when you don't desire God what do you do because when I go out and preach on Christian hedonism the number one question is I'm not even sure I'm a Christian after you talk because you say we're supposed to be happy in God now what and so after hearing that for twenty years or so I I wrote a book on it and that that figures right at the center of it we all experience moments where we are desperate and we're wondering am I even real and we have to preach truth to ourselves to fight fight for joy I think I think when Paul's did fight the good fight of faith fight the good fight of faith my understanding of faith is faith is a receiving of all that God is for us in Christ so that the soul is satisfied in him well are you a believer right now half of you probably aren't very close because you're not feeling a lot of satisfaction in God right now so Piper's very definition of faith is threatening to a lot of people so the fight of is a fight for joy fight to be satisfied in Christ above money above family above fame okay so in this regard first John chapter three verses 19 and 20 by this we shall know that we're of the truth and reassure our heart before him for whenever our heart condemns us God is greater than our heart and he knows everything people keep reading yep beloved if our heart does not condemn us we have confidence before God and whatever we ask we receive from him because the commanding because he does entertain the other possibility that our heart may not condemn us so we want to get to that point but you put that verse with the Psalms because to me that's the seeds just saying what the psalmist did sometimes our heart condemns us what am I gonna do I'm gonna remember this stuff you know sometimes I need the brain to trump the heart sometimes I need the heart to Trump you know or at least exist with the brain right right and in christian hedonism what what what i've tried to say is that sometimes when people say to a pastor or to a counselor I just don't even feel anything else they'll say feelings are not of the essence here what matters is what you think what you're committed to what your allegiances are I never talked like that ever because this guy's written books to argue wait a minute have you read your Bible mr. counselor feelings as mandated by God are everywhere everywhere you it won't work to send somebody out of your counseling office telling them feelings are negligible just be a committed person and get about to be a business of obedience and they go home and open their Bible and this fear love rejoice the things what what is that so I'm never gonna go there to say the brain Trump's the heart in the sense that thoughts about God are more important than the hearts allegiance to God what I'm gonna say what I agree with in that sentence is when with the the brain the renewed brain looks down at mr. Hart here and sees him all in love with money lusting after some naked woman overeating every day the brain doesn't say oh those affections don't matter those cravings don't matter that's not of the essence the brain goes to work on the heart with truth you'll know the truth and the truth will set you free sanctify them in the truth Your Word is truth and the brain goes down there so getting the junk out of the heart resuming the mind so Amen okay if you're want to hear more obviously tomorrow night if you've not signed up for the lecture tough I'm sorry there's no more room but Sunday morning John will be preaching a champion Forest Baptist Church on our main campus we call what do we call that the main champions campus at 9:30 and then at 10:55 or 11:00 I'll be doing a one-on-one interview with him and I do anticipate at that point in time throwing some more scriptures his way I want him to comment on Jesus If any man would come after me let him deny himself take up his cross and follow me and explain to us how that works within the framework of enjoying God and a few other things that we just didn't have time for today but all of these men are acutely aware that God has a certain number of seconds left that they can spend on this earth and they're stewards of each second that they've got and they chose to be here and invest this time with us their spouses chose for them to be here and invest this time with us and I have a lot of gratitude to them and to the Lord for this and I hope you'll join me in just saying

Channel: Desiring God

Views: 13,042

Rating: 4.8692808 out of 5

Keywords: Desiring God, John Piper, God, Jesus Christ, Christianity, Christian Hedonism

Id: vEiE3X_J3Js

Length: 91min 49sec (5509 seconds)

Published: Thu Dec 21 2017