John Piper Interviews Rick Warren on Doctrine

my name is John Piper and I'm here with Rick Warren in the studios at Saddleback Church here in Southern California and this is a finishing of something we started that's exactly right when we didn't get a promise that we made yeah yeah thanks for fulfilling the ma'am isn't really a great honor to do this here and so let me set it up because I've got a way I want to do this and you don't even know yet how we're doing it but you've agreed to do it I want to focus Rick on doctrine and one focus on the Purpose Driven Life everything I have to ask comes the all these pages here from The Purpose Driven Life right with a fine-toothed all right and I I don't know how often you are seriously and appreciatively interviewed concerning doctrine not very often you're known for a lot of other things and so what it is set it up is to say that I value the other things that you're committed to besides biblical doctrine and it's for the sake of those things that I care about foundations when I get interviewed on that stuff all the time yeah and so you've said things like not right-wing not left-wing the whole bird-like knocking down stereotypes of evangelicals on social issues and it seems to me that if if I care and you care that what you're standing for it that level is there with a Christ exalting core in a hundred years the Foundation's better be good that's we're going to talk about we're gonna talk about foundation so good but let me mention the peace plan pursuing reconciliation equipping servant leaders assisting the poor caring for the sick educating the next generation now what I want to say is who could not love those five kanessa and therefore doctrine in my mind is not a distraction from or in competition with those kinds of foundations but foundation it's the driver yes and and The Purpose Driven Life here's one more agenda that I had besides strengthening foundations and or making them explicit sure I I've read Forrest Driven Life very carefully these 20 pages of notes Wow and I have read critiques of it and one of my agendas is to do an appreciative critique and and it will I think feel to you I hope it does mainly appreciate it because frankly I'm appalled at the kinds of slanders that have been brought against this book by people whose methods of critique if they were consistently applied to the Bible would undo it as the Word of God I really you know I I'm one of these reformed types and my type tends to get on your case pretty often and when I read the book I thought what the issue here so I want to get you I want to just get you talking about things that are there good that are I think really significant so I'm gonna do a bunch of quoting from the book and I'm gonna pitch you the ball and you talk a little more about it so let's start where the book starts and where I love to start and any of the glory of or heart of God page 17 it's not about you if you want to know why you were placed on the planet you must begin with God page 53 the ultimate goal of the universe is to show the glory of God page 53 later on what is the glory of God it is who God is it is the essence of his nature the weight of his importance the radiance of his splendor the demonstration of his power the atmosphere of his presence page 54 we are commanded to recognize his glory honor his glory declare his glory praise His glory reflect his glory and live for his glory page 268 our goal is to make God look good in the universe page 101 heartless praise is not praise at all it is worthless an insult to God so there's a sampling that makes my spine tingle with gladness okay you know here here's a few questions okay where did this focus come from or any special influences or since we talked about this two years ago in Ralf winters funeral any influence from Jonathan Edwards well just however the roots of it all sure well definitely Edwards is an influence Edwards is without a doubt the most brilliant mind America ever produced I'm not talking about theologian I'm talking about mind and everybody I'd put him above Einstein and everybody else I think you have talked it you know it is passionate enlightened intellect it and he used his mind I have read through the complete set of John O'Mara which was about I don't twenty two volumes and they're about eight eight hundred pages each he clearly was an influence on me but I think actually out of my Baptist background is I have read you know my father was a Baptist pastor my grandfather my great-grandfather I think I've told you before was led to Christ by Charles Spurgeon and sent to America as a church planter and so I still have books from four generations I actually preached on this this morning about the multi-generational blessing of having grandfathers and great-grandfather's pray for you before you're even born and I know I'm floating on the benefit of other people I do not deserve the blessing I've got and I was talking today about starting that leg to see maybe your parents weren't Christians and moving of that but it's very clear that the heavens declare the glory of God we learn a lot about the glory of God without it in scriptures I mean we know God has organized we know God likes variety we know God is powerful all these things so the heavens declare the glory of God but I will tell you this I know I've taken some shots from John MacArthur on this but I will tell you that his book many years ago when I was a teenager he talked about he's got a chapter on his books on the 17 ways we bring glory to God hmm I've never forgotten that in fact I preached that message and which he talks about this is rings Laurie to God even your sanctification and all of those ways in very much fruit we bring glory to God and all and I've taught that myself for many years when I was in high school I wrote a message it was a two-hour message and I taught it all over California on what it means to bring glory to God so it's been in my heart really from from a teenager year one of the connotations of of kavod the Hebrew Gloria wait right David Wells laments that the reality of God lies lightly on the American church nah I'd like to know if you agree with that how do you avoid fostering an atmosphere of a trifling or flippancy or breezy superficiality when it comes to the weight of God the weight of the glory God well the first place thing I think it goes back to my hermeneutic is what I see verses in Scripture that tend to are apparent contradictions I don't believe there are contradictions I believe them both I believe them both I believe take up your cross deny yourself and follow me and I believe come unto me all you who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest they are different sides of the same thing and I believe that the the weight of glory is an a serious you know the the what I call the woe logo text of you know I saw the Lord seated on his throne and woe is me for I am a man of unclean lips lo an angel touched my name and then go the word of cleansing the word of confession cleansing and commission I believe that's part of the law of God I also believe what I Rene is said the glory of God is a human being fully alive and so when I am playing with my grandchildren that brings glory to God so I don't think that glory to God is simply serious I do you think that there's glory of God and laughter I believe it all and and when I look at opposite passages I believe them both this is a very Theo centric emphasis here as opposed to say Cristo centric so my question is what would you I ask this question because it was asked to me at the at the gospel coalition on a panel the other night as I said they said has your God centered message become more or less Christo centric or in Christ oriented and I told the story of how in the last 10 years or so I have felt impulses in me partly because of what I've seen in Scripture as the cross being the central of everything and partly because the Islamic influence on the right where you got to talk God talk doesn't cut it anymore it doesn't Christ talk is crucial somebody my question is any if you wrote it today it would be the same or no do you do you thought absolutely not in the first place I never intended purpose driven life to be read by unbelievers I was presuming that people already had a certain basis of Scripture because I didn't actually write it as a book I wrote it as the workbook for our 40 days of purpose which is our annual spiritual growth campaign which is not an evangelistic campaign it's a spiritual growth emphasis that we've done every year for 30 years and so rather than writing the book and creating a campaign around it I did it for the exact opposite I was writing it for my people it was only at the end that I thought an unbeliever may need to may read this I've got to throw something in here about salvation and and actually if I had known how many unbelievers gonna read it I would have explained salvation far much more in detail I really admit it was a cursory expression of him now I believe in Christ dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily I believe that we are in Christ we are hid with Christ in God and we are sealed with the Holy Spirit so in essence for Satan to get I'm he's got to go through the Trinity so I 100% agree with you that we have to be even more crystal centric because of the influence of Islam today you know I frequently speak to Muslim groups now what do you expect the guy who's got to get some evangelism okay I spend most of my time speaking to people who totally disagree with me I speak the gays I speak the atheist I speak to settlers I speak to Muslims because I'm trying to build a bridge between mynhardt and there so Jesus can walk across and I come to know Christ I think Muslims in many ways are often like the Cornelius's of scripture who have a heart for God they want to do the right thing but a lot of times have you heard of Jesus have you heard of Jesus and when people say well we worship the same God why so hold on just a minute my god looks like Jesus mm-hmm yeah okay so if your God doesn't look like Jesus we don't worship the same God sorry gonna come back to two religions and and the centrality of Jesus in a minute but staying close to the glory of God let me go to the next thing I mean sovereignty of God sure amazing statements here I love them so let me celebrate for me all right our talk page at 111 God is all-powerful he is in control page 195 our hope is a certainty based on the truths that God is in complete control of our universe and that he loves us page 94 God uses everything for good in our lives page 193 God has a purpose behind every problem page 194 regardless of the cause none of your problems could happen without God's permission everything that happens to a child of God his father filtered right and he intends to use it for the good of even even if even when Satan and others mean it for bad because God is sovereign ly in control accidents are just incidents in God's good plan for you page 273 your weaknesses are not an accident but deliberately allowed and are interesting phrase deliberately allowed them in your life for the purpose of demonstrating his power through you to more 195 there's a grand designer behind every God's plan for your life all that happens to you including your mistakes your sins and your hurts right and 196 this promise is only for God's children it is not for everyone all things work for bad for those living in opposition to God and insist on having their own way so question yeah how did you come to such a I would call high or strong view of God's purposeful sovereignty well those statements would a lot of people don't gag on those state well yeah they do they do from from the very beginning I started preaching when I was 16 years old so I began studying scripture very seriously I had done over a hundred revivals in Babis churches before I was 20 so I'm studying the scripture as a kid and I'm noticing that Christians often want to excuse God from things God doesn't need excusing from when he says am I not responsible for the blind am I not responsible God assumes much more responsibility we're afraid to give him that responsibility now my personal view on this is that Romans 8:28 makes no sense without Romans 8:29 for whom he did foreknow he predestined to become conformed to the image of his son that we might become the firstborn among many brethren to me predestination now I know some people who disagree with this but is as much about sanctification as it is about salvation that we are predestined to become conformed to the image of his son and what I found on this is that how does God make us like his son how does he make us like Jesus if that's God's number one purpose to make us like Christ well it's not like we're walking down the street one day and zap we're zapped and all of a sudden I no longer worry anymore or I'm always patient with everybody I'm always priced like there's no pill there's no conference there's no book that can can do that kind of sanctification I have found both from Scripture and from experience that God allows us in the opposite situation in order to teach us character now what is Jesus Christ well the fruit of the spirits a good example Jesus is total law of total joy total peace total patience gentleness goodness faithfulness meeting the self-control how does God teach me love by putting me around unlovely people how does God teach me joy in the middle of grief not happiness which is a based on happenings and apposite how does God teach me peace not when I'm out fishing and everything's going my way and I said nothing getting better than this but in the middle of chaos how does God teach me patience by putting me in his waiting room and forcing me so the exact opposite caused me that those are part of the sovereignty of God - right and you in in that narration you you use - some kind of herbs you said put me in that put me and you said allowed me yeah and and you you've got I can't believe these are accidental phrases or not you took a law and deliberate you took a little write this book it you know you said the phrase to your weaknesses are not an accident but deliberately allowed now here's my theological YES on that statement you're not an open theist you think I was the future obviously God knows the future so he knows that something bad is coming right he could keep you from it yeah and so what you mean by permit is he doesn't keep you from it doesn't keep you from even I would go even further than that I must say that God custom-designed my weaknesses yeah I'm not saying he's custom that I'm not making God responsible for my sin I do not believe God is responsible for my sin some people may but I believe that my own weaknesses our Father filtered and just as much as God touched Jacobs hip and he walked with a limp the rest of his life that there I have certain emotional weaknesses that are there to keep me dependent upon God right the governor's now let's take sins cuz you said there's a grand designer behind everything yeah God's plan for your life and all that happens to you including your mistakes your sins now yes sins are somehow folded in to the plan of course they are because he sovereign and the clearest way I can say is when I'm teaching on abortion and I will say it this way there are accidental parents but there are no accidental children there are illegitimate parents but there are no illegitimate children you may not have planned your kid but God did okay and I believe that with all my heart even though it might have been fornication that brought the kid about read the genealogy of Jesus and you have to see how the four women in that genealogy God used their sin for his glory so you meant it for evil God meant it for good could be written as a big banner over over all the sins of our lives absolutely ever some but you might admit it simply they mean that God is it God meant it Genesis 50:20 applies to every area of life yeah how do you speak just into tragic situations you you come into a situation where everybody who's read these things and takes them seriously knows what you believe you're walking into what you did yesterday so maybe you yesterday for an example you weren't you walk into a heart a heart attack or are stillbirth yeah or something and speak how does the sovereignty God inform the way talk yeah well before I get to the doctrinal part I first start at the human part which is simply sympathy that I listen my first word is not God can bring good out of this that I'm going to get them there there's no doubt about that's where I'm going with it but I don't start with that I first with weep with those who weep rejoice with those who rejoice be sympathetic show tenderness and brotherly kindness all the scriptures that talk about sympathizing I love the verse in job Rick says a man deserves the devotion of his friends even when he forsakes the Almighty now what that verse means to me is even when if I were to say you know right now I don't believe in God I still need John Piper to be my friend and say I can believe God for you right now I'm gonna hold you up while you are ranting and railing and God can handle my ranting or railing because he certainly handled David's and job's and somebody else so my first reaction in a pastoral care is not to explain and again I don't think the primary purpose of the Bible is to explain suffering I never have because the actual explanations are often inadequate I think that the primary purpose of Scripture is to say I'm all you need in the suffering and I need comfort God does not owe me an explanation for what he does in my life and if I'm looking for that to feel better about my suffering I'm not gonna get it but when you say that I think what you mean is he doesn't need to give you detailed explanation about why this suffering at this moment at this time but you do have big explanations of course they do bit the big one of why they're a person's you've just said he uses it for this and this and well I asked two explanations first I have the explanation of sin at the fact and in the fall literally everything is broken okay nothing on this planet works every body is broken none of our bodies work perfectly every relationship is broken the weather is broken I don't have a problem with hurricanes nothing works on this planet this is not earth this is heaven this is not earth I mean heaven this is earth and that's why we are to pray thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven why because God's perfect will is done perfectly in heaven okay and so I am to pray that done here and and so I have the explanation of sin everything's broken so I should not expect anything no marriage is gonna work you put two centers together you're not gonna have a perfect relationship I have that but I have even greater than that I have the greater glory of God the history is his story that he is in charge and ultimately he knows what he's doing I can get the miniature explanations in heaven yeah okay one more thing on the sovereignty of God because this phrase this promise is only for God's children right Romans 8:28 it is it is not for everyone all things work for bad for those who live in opposition so I just jotted down here what does that mean what what is what is the bad and I assume you mean a person who just took till the end of his days he's resisting and he dies without Christ without God well the Bible makes real clear that that if I am NOT receptive to the grace of God I'm headed for wrath but more than more than just hell and Rathlin obviously I do believe in Hell Jesus spoke more about Hell than he did about heaven I trust him as the authority not you me or anybody else and and if hell is not real then Jesus was a liar okay and God has a lot of explaining to do on his justice and and things like that but more than go back on that question you read it again to me it what does it mean that all things work for bad well they clearly aren't working for good because God owes me nothing he doesn't have to work anything for good in my life that's only for those who are called according to his purpose so when that the Purpose Driven Life written originally for believer right is rooted profoundly in eight twenty eight twenty nine that's totally based on that's the that is the central text really the whole book Romans 8:28 29 for those he foreknew he predestined become conformed to the image of a son it's about becoming like Christ why why do you think I mean it a book doesn't sell 40 50 or whatever oh and copies unless unbelievers are reading are there and and are they stumbling over a sins like things are gonna go bad for us if we don't get saved well I think everybody does selective reading okay I think believers everybody that has a filter and that's why it's real easy for critics to see things from their perspective man I'm going well I didn't mean that at all mmm-hmm and believe me do the same here's a question that probably trouble a lot of people about you sure trying to figure you out in public Mary King and Steve Coburn or whatever Steven Cobert they do you do you hedge yeah on the sovereignty of God when you're in that kind of setting well I don't think so I think if you go and look at those examples Larry King has asked me very pointedly for instance about homosexuality two or three times and I make no bones about it I said no there's a right and there's a wrong and I said you know I said Larry let's don't even argue this from Scripture I said take a human body a male and a female it's obvious certain parts are meant together and there is a purpose and a design for it and there's a result of that I rest my case so I'm not done I don't have to defend God you know it's like Spurgeon said with the scriptures now I what I do it would like to say but since you brought that up about my public appearances yeah everybody needs to understand there's one thing that motivates me it is the global glory of God I am first and foremost a missionary mm-hmm I am an evangelist and I'm a missionary so for instance when I have done political things I couldn't care less about politics I have zero interest in politics really and they don't allure me I have no interest in them because if I believe that the law could change people's behavior I'd become a politician okay but only Christ can change the heart so why do I accept Larry King and the inaugurations the last two presidents things like that because I am trying to it was actually for international consumption not national in the last eight years I've had almost 15,000 of my members overseas in this peace plan and we were making a commitment to go to every nation all 195 nations so man I had people in Algeria Morocco Tunisia Yemen and many other places where it they're they're not well accepted when I accepted the invitation to do the president's inauguration who I clearly don't agree with just like I would accept an invitation to Larry King or whatever it's because I knew every on that inauguration every national leader every King and Prince around the world was watching that show okay and I thought if I have a team that's in a country and they get in trouble and they can hold a picture this is the president United States and this is my pastor it may be able to get them out so it really had nothing to do with national consumption my motivation is really all about mission yeah yeah let me shift gears not entirely from sovereignty of God for us to push it up a level sure and ask a question about election sure would I be right here's my question would I be right to infer from your biblical commitments that your view of God's sovereignty that you embrace the doctrine of unconditional election yes I do of course I do in other words God can does choose who will be say before the foundation of the world would that be right yes my qualifier on that is I say if I find a verse that tends to say something else a whosoever will may come mm-hmm I believe them both mm-hmm I don't my faith my hermeneutics does not demand that I correlate every verse in other words they're often verses that appear I'm a John 3:16 Christian I believe God so loved the world I do believe that and I believe that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but I also believed you know predestined from the foundation of the earth so to me I don't I'm able to hold tensions in my mind rather than having to explain them and so I to me I don't I don't fit in a real good box and that I believe I believe in both yeah and you wouldn't when you say you don't feel obliged to correlate them let me restate that and see if you agree you don't think that they ever contradict each other I do not I think any apparent contradiction in scripture is my limited capacity me trying to understand God is like an ant trying to understand the Internet I don't have the brain capacity it seems to me that in the in Armenian Calvinistic debates of the centuries Calvinists have spoken like you just did and Armenians tend to feel like they need to negate unconditional election hmm they're true I mean you've probably yes that's probably true me my and I instead of saying can I can I see both both and right in other words there's two kinds of thinking there is conjunctive thinking and there's disjunctive thinking disjunctive thinking says it has to be either-or now clearly there are some either ORS about uh neither trust price or I don't run I'm either pregnant or not okay but a lot of thinking in Scripture when it comes to theology is in my opinion conjunctive think it's both end right and and my experiment is at and I believe that it is in we're wired Everage wired differently yeah sure when I see these two yeah I am impressed if if I can sometimes you can't to push them down until the route merges until you get the road trip until the rumors you see well the reason there's no reason they they look like most of them will make um is an absolute truth yes and and chosen before the foundation of the world is absolute truth and and you just some are drivi with theology is an effort that's why we need guys like you here's an interesting thing yeah the importance of eternity yeah in your book a few quotes page 9 this book the most important most important is to prepare you for eternity verse 34 you weren't put on earth to be remembered you were put here to prepare for eternity there's page first like this is not the Bible right right right page 38 to to make the most of your life you must keep the vision of eternity continually in your mind and the value of it in your heart page 283 two more telling others how they can have eternal life is the greatest thing you can do for them one more 295 the eternal salvation of a single soul is more important than anything else you will ever achieve in life so before don't just focus on eternal salvation it seems to me that you're saying for life to make sense for life to be lived to its fullest you need to keep eternity in view most Americans that don't agree with that at all now how do you had it first of all how does it work for you and then and then to say to the world you want the fullest life keep eternity in view why well I actually preached on that this morning where I was talking about the number-one problem in our society today is short-term thinking the only thing that matters is here and the only thing that matters is now and America's inability to delay gratification because we do not have eternal thinking to me thinking with the with the mind of Christ means to be thinking in light of eternity which is what Colossians is all about okay and that our lives are hid with Christ in God and and that eternity we're going to spend far more time on the other side of death on this side we get 80 years maybe at the most 100 trillions of years in eternity this life is preparation for the next this is the warm-up back this is the dress rehearsal this is the get ready this is the first lap around the track before the real race begins because it is in eternity now the question people ask is well if we're gonna go spend eternity why do we do this little time here on earth first why didn't God just create us and take it directly to heaven well there first place he wanted us to choose to love him I believe that love is a choice I believe that we love that if I'm forced to love you then I don't know that I've really loved you but what I'm saying is that God wants us to practice on earth what we're gonna do forever in eternity and what we're gonna do an eternity is four things the Bible is real clear about this first we're gonna worship in eternity we're gonna worship in eternity so what does God want me to do who are we here on earth practice and practice worshiping so so when I get the second we're gonna fellowship in eternity well you know that because that's always gonna be there's believers what does God want us to do you practice learning how to love learning out of fellowship here third thing we're gonna serve in eternity we're gonna sit around on cloud you know this whole idea of you know heaven is where a white robe with the Angels and play a harp to me that would be hell I can't think of anything more boring you know multicolor God had created this world is vying to put us in a white heaven I guarantee you but we're gonna serve him in heaven okay so what is it God wants to practice okay and we are actually going I believe we're going to grow in heaven I believe we're going to keep growing the Bible says one day we shall see him as he is we shall become like him that's gonna be obviously becoming and not God's obviously I don't believe that that's the oldest lie in the scripture but becoming godly okay becoming like him actually what we can't do in heaven is sin and witness and obviously God didn't leave us here to sin so I've often said why is God leave us here on earth once we accept Christ once we've once we're in the family why didn't just kill us mm-hmm I mean widely to see well because he's working on a character through these trials these tribulations we're learning to practice what we're gonna do in heaven so really the kingdom mindset is actually the eternal mindset yeah it's not just about eternal life eternal life is getting ready for that how do you conceive of eternity here's the specific question heaven is usually used as the word where we're going and where we'll be what's your understanding of the new heavens the new earth where do we wind up after the resurrection you know I that's a good question I dunno I dunno I'm going to heaven I have no idea about that I have read all of the scriptures and the the passages that define the paradise and you know parse bars and things like that to me what matters is I'm going to be with Jesus mm-hmm and I'm going to be in his presence and I mine every knee will bow and every tongue will confess at that point you know those honors some to judgment some to salvation in other words what saying is that I think some people want every I think one day Madonna's gonna say Jesus is Lord mm-hmm you know one day Mohammad is gonna say Jesus is Lord Hitler will say Jesus is Lord but to me heaven is a real place I don't believe it's a state of being I believe it is a real place and I believe it is a place where we're going to do these things there's a reuniting there are certainly going to be rewards Bible makes that really clear that there are rewards in heaven I believe there is reassignment reassignment in other words faithful and little things that will trust you and much and if you have not been faithful with that which is not a zone who will give you your own and if you've been unfaithful with unrighteous mammon who's going to trust you the true riches of ever so are you saying that you kind of leave open whether we wind up on the new new earth I do I do I honestly haven't studied it I have not studied it as deeply as as I should because you know it's a trite to say that you know like on the second coming I'm not on the time and place I'm on the on the Welcome committee and really I need to explain this to the people who will watch this because I've taken some hits for some of the things I've said seem to devalue prophecy okay and I've taken a lot of criticism on that and I make my statements on the basis of two statements of Jesus first Jesus says in Matthew 25 no man knows the day nor the hour neither the angels nor the son but only the father which is in heaven now Jesus didn't know when he's coming back I'm crazy for me to try to think Jesus himself in that scripture only the father which is never so you you don't think that say the peace plan or the the Labor's to to make life better here is going to be a continuity of improvement that goes into a kingdom oh I'm definitely not post millennial no and I do not believe when bringing in the kingdom by human means and no sense of the matter now I do believe that the kingdom of God is present we ever Jesus is king that's my definition of King of God if Jesus is king in heaven then the kingdom of God is in heaven if Jesus is king on a reign on earth then the kingdom of heaven is on earth if Jesus is king in my heart then the kingdom of God is in me it's wherever Jesus is king so I don't kid myself Jesus said the poor you'll have with you always mm-hmm so our efforts to help the poor does not mean we're going to eradicate poverty so the way the way you create an attractive heaven or future eternity is by calling heaven a place because we're gonna have new bodies absolutely resurrected bodies resurrected bodies Jesus ate fish yep after he water the walls so you're just you're taking it at least that far we did resurrection bodies yeah lion will lay down with the lamb yep means well you Lionel lay down with the lamb I don't have a problem with that any time could yeah they go to heaven manimals go to heaven you know I don't know that's one of those questions I'm asked more often anything else well my dog go to heaven and I say well the Lionel lay down on the lamb somewhere somewhere yeah you could be here on earth leave it okay let's go to the gospel all right this is the center and and even though you said that you didn't write the book primarily for unbelievers and you would write it differently if you write some millions would read it though nevertheless I want to argue that the gospel is here and I'm gonna read it alright and and and then we'll talk a little bit about the nature of the gospel page 55 here here in order to have a gospel we have to some bad news to save from sure all sin at root is failing to give God glory right it is loving anything else more than God and loving this idolatry refusing to bring glory to God is prideful rebellion and it is the sin that caused Satan's fall and ours too now what's the good news over against that dreadful sinful condition that we all bring page 294 what is the good news the good news shows how God makes people right with himself that it begins and ends with faith for God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself no longer counting people's sins against them this is the wonderful message he has given us to tell others the good news is that when we trust Christ when we trust God's grace to save us through what Jesus did our sins are forgiven we get a purpose for living and we are promised a future in heaven when Jesus stretched his arms out wide on the cross he was saying I love you this much more page 112 if God never did anything else for you he would still deserve your continual praise for the rest of your life because of what Jesus did for you on the cross God's Son died for you this is the greatest reason for worship or page 58 all you need to do is receive and believe the Bible promises to all who received him to those who believed in his name John 1:12 he gave the right to become the children of God believe God has chosen you to have a relationship with Jesus who died on the cross for you receive Jesus into your life as your Lord and Savior friendship with God is possible only because the grace of God and the sacrifice of Jesus one more the only thing that will matter at the judgment is did you accept what Jesus did for you and did you learn to love and trust him the dearest thing to the heart of God is the death of the Son of God so now Here I am I'm rejoicing and exalting in the orientation of the gospel on the cross on the death of Jesus you say what Jesus did for you now I assume that when you say you would do something more what here's the more I'd like to hear a little more about us you don't describe actually what happened when he died I don't and it's so tight I didn't explain justification I didn't explain him who knew no sin became sin on our behalf that we might become the righteousness of God that is salvation I certainly believe in the imputed righteousness of that not imparted but imputed no doubt about it that's a it's jump in right there because what my later pages was yeah does it do you think it matters significantly to to make that Roman Catholics would tend to say yeah that justification is the impartation I know I've rights and Protestants have historically say it's the imputation of alien rights and you've just said that matters oh absolutely it matters it's it's absolutely significant that to the matter what I would do differently was the prayer that I wrote in this thing because I have taken shots where I said now because I felt like I explained the cross I even do a chapter on Jesus suffering in in there but when I come down I said believe and receive and any say I say pray this prayer Jesus I believe in you and I receive you now the basis of that prayer is simply John 1:12 to them you know he gave the right to become the children of God to those who believe on his name who received him and people have attacked the saint women there's no word the reported repentance is not in that prayer do I believe in repentance of course they believe in repentance repentance is the basic message of the new testament method noi is the message of every one of the Apostles and I could take you from Matthew to Revelation and show you how every single man who preached repentance right yeah and I'm gonna help you here cuz I don't you I was reading it with that criticism in mind yeah yeah so we read a couple of things in Eden read repentance shirt over there even though you you you might say you and I say more right it's not in the prayer that's what they were looking for okay okay at any rate here's the way you say do you define repentance to be like Christ you must develop the mind of Christ the New Testament calls the mental shift repentance which in Greek literally means to change your mind to to repent when whenever you change the way you think by adopting how God thinks about yourself about sin about God about other people life your future everything else you take on price outlook or one more offering yourself to God is what worship is all about this act of personal surrender is called many things consecration making Jesus your Lord taking up your cross denying yourself yielding your spirit so what what what I wrote here is missing was the quotations of repent the verb repent exactly it wasn't there you you you know that Christa Christian life is one continual conformity of the mind get it from this to this turn turn turn right and repentance is everywhere in this book in that sense right yeah and and again the question I would ask the people first place I some of the criticisms of people said I happen to agree with ya okay well you could have said more in explaining justification I agree with that but I wasn't writing it for non-believers I was writing it to my church who I already knew were there but when I got when I thought oh I better throw in a little bit on salvation and it really came back as an afterthought and kind of tossed it in but I would question this do you have to say certain words in order to be saved because if you do then the thief on the cross wasn't safe and I can give you a hundred other people in scriptures because the thief on the cross simply said Lord remember me when you come into your kingdom and Jesus said today you'll be with me in paradise where's the repentance he didn't ever say the word and I could give you a hundred ever examples where Jesus says believe in the Lord art Paul believed enlarges the loot I'm thinking of my good friend and John MacArthur loved and esteemed respect behind his question or critique on that level might be do you really believe that that in order to be saved as we regenerate there needs to be evidence of a changed life of course absolutely can't live like the devil you can't believe like easy believe is Amelia who wrote a whole book the gospel of Jesus act what do you think of that book I thought it's a great book I thought it was a great book and it got him into big trouble because it looked like you know it was making salvation depend on works in fact it was saying that I think that the fruit yeah of the new birth better be real yeah you know start really funny because for instance oz Guinness wrote another book about the mega church called dining with the devil and some people thought that oz was actually writing about Salva people that realize cause was on my staff okay and and he wasn't talking about Saddleback and one of the problems is when a church is large it often gets lumped into other large churches I could name some other well-known churches that we have nothing in common with okay in terms of our view of discipleship our view of salvation the only thing we have in common is we both happen to be bid mm-hmm and and so I would just say this is not your father Saddleback or this is not your father's mega church okay some of those things are different but I do believe in obviously in fact in if you listen to my preaching seminar I have a three-day preaching seminar and I have an entire sentence on you're not preaching the gospel session you're not preaching the gospel unless you're preaching repentance in fact it is the fundamental message of Christianity it is the change is the Metanoia now here's what I disagree with uh some people some people think repentance means change in behavior and I tell you that that is the fruit of repentance not the root there's not a single Greek lexicon that says repentance means change stop doing back bring forth fruit worthy of repentance taught and and that's what all the others taught to in that repentance is the way I change my mind in the modern word for repentance is paradigm shift I used to think this way about my sin now I think this way but you wouldn't say probably and could hear people over my shoulder it's saying you can have a wonderfully changed mine and everything stays the same in your life no you're still sleeping with your girlfriend you're still stealing at the office you're still reporting and that's why the Bible says by their fruit you shall know them but it is the fruit of repentance not the root right in other words it is it is not my behavioral change that saves me it that is the proof that I have been saying no doubt about it and my change does come with I see God differently I see and here's the interesting thing for me when I repented it was not a negative people asked like repents a negative word to me it's the most positive word in the world it's actually an act of joy I turned from darkness to light from hopelessness to hope and from guilt to forgiveness from me running my life to price running my life so an implication I think would be that as you preach to professing believers which I do every Sunday I don't think I'm contradicting their security in Christ their Romans 8:28 those who justified a glorified security by warning them if they continue in such-and-such if they do this they won't enter the kingdom of heaven this goes back to where course not not at all but in fact again I believe for by grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourselves you know it's not a works it's no mention both and I also believe without holiness no man shall see the Lord right I have no problem with both of those verses I have no problem yeah okay well I hope that helps some folks because I saw that here just a few more on the gospel do you think that and maybe this has already been answered just face justification by grace alone through faith alone because of Christ alone to the glory of God alone the solos yes but that's a good solid summary of absolution I believe in the five SOLAS yeah 100% believe in the five souls right and and I am to those of you who know what this I'm a monarchist I don't call myself a Calvinist I don't I have to say that I don't comment but I am a modernist in that I believe that it is not of my works it is it's one-sided when you see do you dislike the name Calvinism because of key doctrines that are wrong or because of connotations it would carry origin connotations only got it and I say this in true love but I wish that those who believe in the doctrines of grace would be more gracious that's all I'd say so you you don't have a problem saying I embrace the doctrines of grace but I'd really not be connected with some people who know I again I don't call myself you know I'm a Baptist background Baptist and I'm proud of that but I don't go around calling myself a badass all the time either mm-hmm I'm a I'm a John 3:16 Christian I'm an evangelical you know I believe the doctrines of grace and justification we've touched on imputation matters absolutely right at the core they have so it is the core of the DA so you don't you in who knew no sin became sin on our behalf that we might become the righteousness of God second Corinthians 5:19 is right right right at the core and I I just went underlined because today I think even in evangelicalism there's a washing on that well there's no need we should wash you it's just said it's not in the Bible yeah that that imputation is not there that could name names of people you know and I know that breakin my heart that they have departed from what we always thought was historic Protestant Christian and biblical builders all the teaching but say what you need is forgiveness of sins and for the imputation of your sins to go to Jesus you don't need the imputation of his righteousness to go into you yes yes and I will say this there obviously there there have been historically many different theories of the atonement and I think each of them has a part but I think fundamentally it is the substitutionary understanding that God Jesus took our payment and you can't understand yes he did defeat the works of the devil oh yes he is an example of love and sacrifice and I believe all of these are pictures but the fundamental one that was my problem and I just tweeted it this morning I just literally tweeted it this morning that said the reason Jesus came to earth is because the law could not do what we need in a zoo okay and only Jesus could do it right right so substitution is right at the heart and say a word about propitiation and meaning was God angry at all human beings because of their sin and and wrath rested upon us and he loved us enough so that he would insert intrude his son between his own wrath and us so that he became a curse for us and and the wrath is diverted onto the son from us is what I've just described well you just you just said it perfectly last year in the seven weeks before Easter I did the seven last words of the Cross okay and I preached through that right up to Easter and the the doctrine of propitiation you cannot have Jesus saying Iloilo i lama sabachthani my god my god why have you forsaken me without understanding perpetuation the Bible says at that point God looks down on his own son and he says son you know I have said in numbers I will by no means clear the guilty not even you not even you and so he took that wrath on him self and at that moment he says my God my God if you don't understand you don't understand that much God loves you amen let's go to praveen yet grace the grace that brings me to Christ and that enables me to do what I need to do here is the one place where I found a sentence that Rick Warren said that I still believe okay I reacted you see I mean it so here's what I mean not everybody will understand where I'm coming from let me okay you said on page 174 this is not the problem I'll get there in a minute it is it is the Holy Spirit's job to produce christ-like character in you amen it's his you're a moaner just I just said that you want to just be to two sentences define it now go ahead okay you all right we'll get there without defining it explicitly the the Bible says God is working in you you're coding here flip into thirteen God is working in you giving you the desire to obey Him and the power so when I read that hot great love that Senate that seems biblical to me and then you continue to speak carefully with the word through I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt on page 174 you say how does this happen in your life through the choices we make and I'm totally a choice guy I mean we do make choices or absolutely and they matter and something's happening through them we choose to do the right thing in situations and then trust God's Spirit to give us his power love and faith and wisdom to do it now at that point I mean mmm what's coming first here how is this working now here comes the sentence that I've put a big no okay it's the only place I wrong about well I think I know the Holy Spirit releases his power of the moment you take a step of faith obedience unlocks God's power God waits for you to act first yeah let me explain that yeah I hear where you're going on that I would not apply that to sanctification I think that's a misapplication and I probably should have clarified that better because what I'm saying there is I'm thinking of the children of Israel stepping into the Jordan mm-hmm okay no that wasn't their choices God had told them to do it too so there's an obedience there and it was only after they stepped in the wave parted and I think there have been many examples in my life where God has asked me to risk take a risk and then he does the miracle okay I would not apply that across the board as the sanctification yeah not at all okay that's really really helpful so let me let me restate what I heard in the first quote sure and see if you you mean it sure the way I'm understanding it it says in Philippians to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling uh and then it gives this ground claws for God is the one who's working you to will and to do and to work so I'm concluding monir jism in thing if occations or mean that if I do choose to stop stealing things at the office or to stop cheating on my tax report or to stop looking at pornography my choice is to do that have been prior enabled out of the Holy Spirit in fact I well I as I believe you don't have the power to make those good choices my might my decision-making power is broken why I believe this okay and this is why we teach us in our what we call our celebrate recovery program that willpower is isn't gonna work because your wills broken mm-hmm and and I cannot choose to to do the things that I want to do that's Romans 7 so this is clarify that even after you were born again and have a new nature yeah you are dependent on the Holy Spirit to awaken prompt enable the good that God calls us to do yes I do believe that what I believe is I love the the phrase Paul uses when he says worked out your salvation for it is God who is working in now there's a working out and a working in in the same verse okay now what is work out well notice he doesn't say work for mm-hmm okay that's important you know saying work for either your salvation or sanctification okay he says work out what God is working in the only way I can explain this is when I go to a gymnasium when I work out I'm not working to create muscle I'm working what I'm doing there is I'm working out the muscle God has already given me if God hadn't given me the muscle there's nothing to work out you understand what I'm saying yeah and more muscle grows but muscle had to be there to get I can grow the muscle through some working out but I can't create muscle the muscle initially came from God and so to be the working out is not working for it it's basically exercising what God gave you yeah and the nerves came from God yeah it all came the explosive and the blood synapses between and and as that passage says the desire to go to the gym now implications for the total depravity all right or whatever that is a private II would it would be right to infer from what you've said about the new birth that you believe that our inability to awaken ourselves to faith and to begin this glorious Purpose Driven Life yeah we can't we can't do it without God's sovereign I just go back to Scripture and that not of yourselves I rest my case and that not of yourselves and that meaning faith I even the faith even the faith even the faith and that not of yourself so Tony depravity in that yes way of saying it would mean totally unable to get myself a started exactly okay I think I certainly believe that some people take total you know to mean you do as many bad things you could do and clearly you could do more bad things as an unbeliever than you do do but it does thats not the point the people I don't Title II unable again I don't use total depravity as much as I like to say total inability yeah that that's even more difference devastating to me to me it means well I used this as an illustration last week we had Easter and we had one of the miners who was here from the Chilean mine yeah okay okay 33 men trapped for 69 days 2,000 feet below the ground okay now one of us Christian and over the next 69 days 22 of those guys came to Christ he came and shared his story but the illustration that I used was now the they were they were unable to pay for their own salvation mm-hmm okay they for all intents purposes are dead and don't even know it they're dead and don't know it they're trapped they're doomed there's no way and out they can't say well really I don't need the government because I've got a spoon and I'm going to dig my way out of this hole it isn't going to happen now on the other hand coming this direction they're coming down to save them and the important thing that they need to understand is no way would they ever be able to repay or afford it this salvation this rescue is going to take tens of millions of dollars and in ten lifetimes they could never afford or pay for their freedom their salvation their liberation their Redemption the rescue whatever synonym you've touched on Hell already let me read what you said and then just get you to say yes to it order whatever more you want to say on page 27 while life on earth offers many choices eternity offers only to heaven or hell I like that I should write that yeah you should well said do you say a lot of things well if you love and trust God's Son Jesus you will be invited to spend the rest of eternity with him on the other hand if you reject his love forgiveness and salvation you will spend eternity apart from God right page 112 why did God allow Jesus to endure ghastly mistreatment so you could be spared from eternity in hell and so share glory forever page 232 the Bible warns unbelievers he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves and you put Romans 2:8 and one more page 284 we must remember that no matter how contented or successful people appear to be without Christ they are hopelessly lost and headed for eternal separation from God so it just seems clear to me that this is a terrible thing you really do believe in because the Bible teaches it and I would just ask what's in your mind what's the nature of it and and here I just want people who are hearing in this to know that this is one of the hardest and most painful things we shouldn't fight without crying you know I mean there people are gonna deny hell they're doing that as we speak but there's so much lightweight criticism of the argument I just read it again yesterday in some newspaper that we're all over Trevon wax because of a particular comment I thought so anyway the atmosphere this moment in this assembly but there's no doubt about that yes so what is it what is heavy well I believe in a little help Jesus believed in literal hell Jesus talked about flames of fire I believe in that but to me hell is eternal separation from God it's ultimate loneliness this myth that people are going to see each other in hell that they're gonna party in hell that that's just it is unloving to not tell the people the truth when you know it's there and and and so we we cannot wage on this and I can say with a clear conscience and in all of the public interviews every time I've been asked about Hell I I shoot straight on it yes it's real yes it's Restore people will go there I was speaking at Aspen Institute one time which is the brainiac's of the world and a woman gets up and she says to me I'm Jewish I'm not gonna accept Jesus as my savior am I going to hell now everything in my human nature wants to backpedal and make it safe and make it comfortable and say the politically correct thing but I can't do that because I fear God's disapproval more than I fear hers and I also love her enough to tell her the truth now the would you say well I'll tell you the way I said it is a way that put takes it off of me because it's tense we often when people bring up and I would say this to pastors don't make this your opinion versus their opinion lay it off on Jesus every time and so I said this this is what I said to her everybody's betting their life on something okay atheists are betting there's no God Buddhists are betting on Buddha I'm betting my life that Jesus Christ was not a liar that Jesus Christ was telling the truth jesus said no one comes to the Father but by me now I didn't say that he said it I am the way not a good way not the best way not one of the ways not a nice way I am the way the truth and the life no one cause I'm betting my life that he was telling the truth now see what I did I took it off of me and making me the authority and well that's your word against mine isn't it I'm just saying I'm putting my trust that Jesus who split history and ad and BC is not a liar yeah that's good is it is it conscious to torment their conscious oh I believe it is and I believe it's eternal you know can anybody get out you know once they're there no of course not no you know you're not a universalist yeah absolutely not a universal sign I don't believe in purgatory which obviously isn't in Scripture ya know this is the option is now which is what motivates me to evangelism yeah people need to understand why do I go spend time with people I don't agree with why do I hang out with gays why do I hang out with atheists why do I hang out with crooked politicians or as with Jesus would with prostitutes and tax collectors I'm an evangelist okay and I am motivated by the fact that in the next 365 days a hundred and thirty six thousand Californians will die and most of them will go into an eternity without Christ in the next 365 days 2.4 million bolete Americans will die to them will go into eternity without Christ in the next 365 days 74 million people in the world will go into eternity without Christ and without hope I can't live with that I can't my love compels us didn't care about that the implication of what I hear you saying yeah which was on my next page so you don't attract and write with my mind is the eternal destiny of those who've never heard do you believe that there's another way for a person who's never heard of Jesus to be saved or must he hear the gospel and believe it to be saved Jesus made it really clear go into all the world and make disciples baptizing in the name of the Father Son Holy Spirit teaching them to do you know all that I've commanded you and lo I'm with you always time after time again if you can be saved without Christ missions is a proc we're better off not to go we're better off not to have a peace plan and again why am i doing the P which is to peace by the way it's promote reconciliation and plant churches we plant churches to promote reconciliation we don't just promote reconciliation oh these are the five things Jesus did there's some things that Jesus did we can't do like die for the sins of mankind a redemption of all through his precious blood but Jesus did say I've given you an example now go and do likewise and and he Jesus planted a church he equipped servant leaders okay and what he did on theirs he loved everybody he fed the 5,000 he trained the 70 he disciple the 12 and he mentored three now in in even in the twelve only Peter and James and John get to go in the garden Gethsemane only Peter James and John get to go on the Mount of Transfiguration only Peter James and John get to see Peters mother-in-law healed and in Galatians Paul calls Peter James and John it's different James the pillars of the church obviously it worked because you know we're all here okay so Jesus planted a church he equipped leaders he assisted the poor the Bible says you know the first message in his first public recorded message is Luke 4 he's in his hometown he's already been ministering for a year we always preach and then go do it Jesus did it for a year and then announces his agenda and his announced agenda is the Isaiah passage and the very first thing he says the Spirit of the Lord is upon me because he's appointed me to preach good news to the poor does God love have favorites yes he does he loves the poor I believe that I believe that 2000 verses and the Bible talk about the poor and God's saying if you care about the poor I will bless you so he cares the poor he assists he cares for the sick and Jesus went into every village it says he went preaching teaching and healing I believe that Jesus threefold ministry was preaching which is evangelism and edification teaching which is education and healing which is in in are such health care in other words he cared about not just the spirit but also the mind and the body it is not by accident that the first school and the first hospital in every every nation in the world it started by Christians because we have a preaching teaching and healing faith and then he educated next generation let the children come to me they are the kingdom of God if you want to do the kingdom of God you must care about children's ministry in my opinion now none of those things are going to bring in the Millennium I don't I'm not kidding myself but I'm using those as a bridge to do the Eternity issue the extent of the atonement is the most vexed right of the duck you and I've talked about this it's the one I have the most problem with in in the typical tulip yeah you have the doctrines of grace so read something you wrote and there's two ways to take what you wrote I could take it in my way but I doubt if it's your way I wonder okay frankly I think I've said to various people who stumble over this so-called fourth point I said if you give me 15 minutes we can agree yeah but let's try it it won't take 15 minutes you said if you want to be used by God this is page 288 yes you must care about what God cares about what he cares about most is the redemption of the people he made he wants his lost children found yeah interesting phrase he wants his lost children found which could mean everybody had planet or he could mean John 1152 or Caiaphas says better that one died for the nation the nation and then John says he was speaking about prophecy that he would die that he might gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad didn't say nothing matters more of the gods and then to cross now my if I were to take up my way and interpret it in the light of John 1152 Christ died to gather into one the children of God's care around the sheep that are scattered out there the the elect yeah and so in that sense the death of Christ has a divine purposefulness that it really did achieve the faith and the in gathering of the Sheep and I think I could say that that would be called particular redemption or limited atonement without denying that the cross makes possible and purchases a bona fide offer for every person on the planet so that you can look a person right in the face well we're a lot closer than I thought we were and say you could even say yeah and I could quote John Murray on this he's a vintage vintage vintage before right John and say Christ died for you meaning not that he effectively accomplish your propitiation on it but that he died such that his arms are extended to you say if you will come if you will come it's yours this is yours that it so I feel like I can talk like the atonement is there beckoning everyone while believing the nuke when Jesus said this cup is the New Covenant right right well the new confident is when he writes the law in my heart and draws me to himself and puts the fear of God in me I think he bought my conversion which means he didn't do that for everybody so there are designs in the cross that are for his elect but there are also designs in the cross that are for everybody so there's my there's John Piper's effort to know that you know we're a lot closer than I thought we were on that one because I I do believe again this goes back to my hermeneutic of when I have two different passages I believe them both mom I believe Ephesians 5 Christ died for the church and gave his life for her I believe that with all my heart I also believe Peter God is not willing that any should perish I think he wants people to be safe and I and I believe in John 3:16 so I do what do you say who does Christ effort he died for the time for the church okay I don't think God's death on the cross through Christ was a failure if you're if you're saying that I do not believe that anybody he intended to die for is is failing and in that area is just going to hell absolutely not now but I on the other hand I don't believe in universalism either that his salvation automatically assumes everybody's going to be there which some people have interpreted the Romans passage of as Adam and Adam all died in Christ and all should be man I don't interpret that in a Universalist way I like the way you say John I'd like to hear more about it we'll talk again implications for the world one's done okay implications for the world of your strong view on holiness yeah you like page 214 you won't be able to say no to the devil unless you have said yes to Christ to know you love the world and you speak to the world as much as you speak to believers does that imply the world that is the non-believer is always doing the bidding of the of course they were good you know in other what I believe this my righteous is really rags my goodness is not good enough and and in fact I preached on this on Easter and I talked about I said you know here in Southern California everybody thinks they've got the good life and the good life means looking good feeling good and having the goods I said there's one problem with the good life it's not good enough it's not good enough my righteousness are as filthy rags and and you know yeah if you want to if you want to judge yourself by Hitler sure you're better than Hitler in fact if you want to judge yourself by me sure you're probably better than me but we've all fallen short of the glory of God which is a perfect standards and the issue is not are you better than so I have no doubt you're probably better than me but it's like we're all swimming to to Hawaii and some people swim a mile and five but nobody's gonna make it to Hawaii yeah you know so it even gonna happen Rick underneath everything we've been talking about as we draw towards Indian is the Bible a man and here's here here's some quotes from The Purpose Driven Life page ninety you can't love God unless you know him and you can't know him without knowing his word the Bible says God revealed himself to Samuel through his word I love that First Samuel 3:20 a normative of the way I think out knowing God yeah God still uses that method today page 101 worship must be based on the truth of Scripture page 186 to be healthy disciple of Jesus feeding on God's Word must be your first priority page 188 we can't watch television for three hours and then read the Bible for three minutes and expect to grow page 215 if you don't have any Bible verses memorized you've got no bullets in your gun yeah how do you describe your understanding of its authority and truthfulness what words do you like to use well its first it's an arrant I believe the scripture is without error in its original autographs as I tweeted the other day I don't believe my interpretations inherently I don't believe anybody else's interpretation is inerrant but I do believe the scripture is an errant eye I believe in the plenary verbal plenary interpret inspiration scripture without a doubt I come from classic Baptist background which which holds a high view of Scripture but more than that I have tried for 32 years to teach people to be self feeders not just simply to listen to the Word of God I don't think that's enough I think many times pastors are feeding them good word but they're not teaching them to be self feeders it's interesting the very first book I wrote I wrote in college 35 years ago and it was book on 12 Bible study methods on how to study Scripture one of the verses that that dominates Saddleback for for 31 years is Hosea 4:6 my people are destroyed for lack of knowledge however knowledge is not enough and I think I've shared this with you before I actually believe that there are levels of Scripture I mean levels of understanding of Scripture that we start with knowledge which is knowing the what of Scripture but then we must move to perspective which is knowing the why okay the Bible says about Moses it says it says in Psalms the people of Israel knew the acts of God but Moses knew the ways of God I dispute that between knowledge and perspective knowledge is knowing the content of Scripture who is Jacob okay what is the doctrine of hell the heaven and everything else that's the no 1 the what most people don't know that Saddleback has a 72 week systematic theology course that is required for every small group member and every staff member and I've had over 15,000 people go through this 72 week small systematic study I would take the doctrinal knowledge of any 500 Saddleback members and compared to any five hundred members of any other Church and we beat him I I would I would I have no fear on that we're probably one of the few churches in America that memorizes a Bible verse every week okay this is lamentation 324 and so teaching hearing reading studying memorizing meditating but then the fundamental thing that we do at this church is be doers of the word not hearers only had a guy asked me one time he said what's the best translation to this do I do I need a living Bible and I said you ought to be a Living Bible I said you're either a Bible or a libel and so so the scripture is the only authority for our lives it's not krypter plus anything else and it is it is it is our guidebook for all rule and practice you know one of the difference between I think between you and me although I don't I don't listen you every Sunday yeah and you don't listen to me every Sunday is that in my expositional approach yeah I tend to have a passion for wanting to people to see how I got what I got hmm I don't get that you're driven by the same passion not on the Sunday morning services on midweek that we did for many years of course now but most people don't know is that we have more people in Bible study than we have on the weekends they told us we have 32,000 people in our small groups studying Scripture and we often do book by book studies but 22,000 on the weekend what I'm interested in when somebody comes in Sunday morning say I believe worship can be a witness I don't think you have to water it down but I do think you have to be clear and I see Sunday mornings sometimes like a like a emergency room somebody's coming in and he's bleeding to death his wife has left and his kids are on drugs he's lost his thing and I'm going okay I got to first get the word to him that relates to him at that point and then he goes wow that helped what else you got in that book yeah okay okay but let me just say this I do think that God doesn't care how you deal with the text as long as you get to the text and I think it is a misnomer to say exposition it's only book by book I think there's verse by verse and verse with verse there's some things like if you're going to teach an abortion you can't just take one text you have to take multiple texts but you have to expose expose the text while you're there totally totally agree with that let's wrap it up within five minutes and I'll get two more things and this is almost the same as we've been talking about doctrinal depth you say worship page 102 worship must be both accurate right and authentic god-pleasing worship is deeply emotional and deeply doctrinal that's right 104 146 many church fellowships and small groups remain superficial because they are afraid of conflict so you're committed to deepening doctrine and not being afraid of of conflict not at all but Sunday morning is not tend to where you see that the deepening of dr. Sunday morning if a lot of people think it's not deep because I don't use theological terms I once taught a 12-week series on sanctification without ever using the word I taught an eight-week series on the Incarnation without ever using the word I did a 12-week series on grace obviously grace was an easy word to use but I I when I did the names of God you can use the names of God without having to dig into you know explain now Jehovah Jireh Jehovah said kinnear Jehovah Rapha let's explain all these terms so what I like to do is I've said I like to teach theology without feet telling people's theology and without using theological terms so but here's my question what creates deep preaching mmm-hmm that is that's my question what is deep preaching and I would say it's not deep until it gets to the heart and the character of the person that I could teach through revelation including God including God that's what I'm talking about if you get to the heart and nature of God you get to the heart and nature of God I could teach through Revelation and explain all of the meaning of everything and not be deep today a lot of people equate deep preaching meaning I explain the background hmm well that's not deep at all deep is life transforming simple does not mean shallow hmm simple does not mean simplistic simple does not mean you know it's it's lightweight simple means it's clear Paul says I'm afraid you've complicated the gospel I'm afraid that you get away from the simplicity of the gospel and actually we you can it's easy to complicate the gospel and it's easy to confuse people and I could you know I've got a doctorate and I could easily preach in a way people walk can I go boy that was deep well I wouldn't deep was just muddy you know confusing okay so here's the difference being simple simplistic simple as this is the day the Lord has made let us rejoice and be glad simplistic as have a nice day there's deep theological truth behind this is the day the Lord has made let us rejoice and be glad simplistic is have a nice day I have one more thing I want to say but I want to make sure before we go away that you were hoping I would go somewhere I didn't go anything just kind of burning to to get out that you know I thought he was gonna ask this and I didn't get a chance to say it about the first of in life or about doctrine or about anything no this is good I'm having fun yeah me go on for another couple hours oh we won't I've got to get on a plane and and page 214 last quote oh this is from the biography okay you said you haven't read I've never read it it's okay never read a former staffer says Rick had really sensed a sacred trust a sense of stewardship of life I wrote Amen right there you are the probably and I would like to pray for your humility because you you you are challenged more than anybody perhaps but we all struggle but you're the most publicly influential pastor in the world perhaps you've written a book that has sold I suppose as a nonfiction hardback more than any other book in history outside of the Bible something like that anyway it's a good seller that's an incredible trust that's an incredibly sacred trust and I want to end with a with an exhortation and a prayer for those who are watching this my prayer Rick and an exhortation is that with with your place in history in American church and global search at six it's just fixed it's just you don't need to do any more they everybody knows what's up here and and how God is I believe God has blessed Saddleback and God has blessed a Purpose Driven Life with that firmly fixed my plea is that according to what you just said you you take the next 20 years and really gather these hundreds of thousands of pastors who look your way and press them down deep trust them into doctor and impress them into the word into the deep glories of God leave a legacy not just a breath and not just a global impact now but but leave a legacy of depth that will last for generations and centuries I love you I admire you I'm glad you're my friend and there will be hard days yet to come you you you you have hard days now you know my hard days yeah we we both know what people don't know about each of each other's hard days and I would like to just simply strengthen your hand and encourage your heart and underline the beauties of the truths that we've spent the last hour and a half talking about well I I'm deeply touched by what you just said John I mean I really am I'm not just making this up I I believe there are two great themes in Scripture salvation and stewardship you know I believe that one day we'll stand before the Lord and he's gonna ask a couple questions the first one is what did you do with my son Jesus that's it what did you do with my son Jesus and the second one that's the question of salvation the second one is the question of stewardship which is what did you do with what I gave you I didn't ask for this notoriety and actually it's it's been it scared me to death it's quite a pain and when the book became the big hit that it was it brought an enormous amount of attention and an enormous amount of money and both of them scared me because I didn't want to be a celebrity I when I started Saddleback I said I'm never going on the radio or television I wasn't gonna put my services cuz I didn't wanna be a celebrity I just I think always being in the spotlight blinds you and I know enough about my own heart that the temptations and I and I am grateful honestly for the thorns in the flesh that many people don't know about that actually forced needed to be dependent upon God and that's part of that sovereign pain okay the part of the limp is God God if he's going to strengthen you then he's gonna also touch your hip so you walk with a limp the rest of your life in and I've got limps and I talk to you about him and I've told others about them too and when I began to pray said Lord show me what to do with the money and show me what to do with the fame and God taught me what I call the stewardship of affluence and the stewardship of influence they gave me two passages one in Corinthians and the one in Psalm 72 the one in Corinthians is the passage where he says those who teach the gospel should make a living by the gospel but Paul says I will not accept that right because I'm gonna serve the gospel for free so I'm a slave to no man and and most people it's pretty widely known now that that Kay and I went literally tens of millions of dollars came in you write this book I could have bought an island and retired and had people serving little glasses of iced tea with umbrellas but when you write a book and the first sentences it's not about you then you know the money is not for you I had no idea how often I was going to be tested by that sentence I'm often tested nine or ten times a day and I'll walk into a room and it's not about you and I'll get praised and it's not about you and I'll get criticized I'll say it's not about you and I I never knew how much I was going to be tested on that thing and and I'm begging the people who watch us please pray for me I would rather stick a knife in my heart than dishonor the name of God so you formed a foundation yeah we did we did two things short okay number one we decide if we're not changing our lifestyle one bit I still live in the same house I've lived in for 19 years I Drive an eleven-year-old Ford I wear a watch that I paid for 17 bucks for at Walmart okay I could have bought a thousand Bentley's but we die I live you know I don't save thousands by not wearing socks we I stopped taking a salary eight years ago we added up all the church had paid me in 25 years and I gave it back and we became reversed tithers we started this 31 five years ago raising our tithe by one percent a year at least you know he never told anybody for 30 years and you know on some years when we got a rig pay raise I'd raise our side four or five percent and years we were we were financially short we raised it a half a percent today we raised it another percent this last year we give away ninety one and we live on on a nine now that was actually the easy part just give away the money and that's a whole lot of fun I don't really have big needs so I got a good pair of jeans I'm a t-shirt I'm fine so that was the easy part the hard part was what do I do with this attention okay the money who actually was pretty easy and and and you know the money section power you know lust flesh lust of the eyes pride of life haven't had a problem thank God and the Bible says let him do two stands take heed lest he fall with sexual lust or immature or things like that because I set parameters around my life like Billy Graham did thirty-five years ago I've never been in a room with a woman who's not my wife ever alone in 31 years never well I don't even get in a hole in a in an in a elevator with my secretary they know this people know this if I'm driving down the street I see a member who's a woman on a on a with a car problem I don't stop I call and I say I send somebody else I want the people say that's going overboard I'd rather go overboard than you thrown overboard so the problem was has not been money and the problem has not been sex but the pride issue is so subtle yeah yeah and and even when you don't know so that the other issue is the issue of affluence I mean influence Psalm 72 sounds like the most selfish prayer ever prayed it's Solomon's prayer for more influence and when you pray this prayer it sounds more selfish than jay-bez prayer mm-hmm he says God I want you to make me famous I want you to spread the fame of my name to many lands I want you to give me power I want other Kings to know who I am until you read the reasons just so that the King may support the widow Norvin defend the defenseless speak up for the oppressed and he talked about all the marginalized of society the immigrant and out of that said the purpose of influence is to speak up for those who have no influence and so I've really spent the last decade overseas I tried to get out of America in many ways to spend times in the villages where they didn't know me but I covet your prayers because this thing could take me down and I'm very aware of it let's pray father in heaven that's a good place to stop and I ask now for me and for Rick Warren in particular that you would protect us from the lust of the flesh lust of the eyes had the this pride in possessions men and that the the celebrity thing the influence thing would not have a light that blinds our eyes amen oh that Christ would be our light him in his light do we see light there's a guard Rick from Pride and grant that the glories of the truth that we have just celebrated and articulated would continue to to inform everything we preach everything we do we long that Christ would be exalted and that the mission would go forward and that millions of people would pass from death to life and that underneath all the efforts would be your Holy Word and your Holy Scriptures and above all things would be your glory shining bright man way to the universe I ask this in Jesus name Amen amen thank you you

Channel: Desiring God

Views: 500,845

Rating: 4.6244826 out of 5

Keywords: Desiring God, John Piper, God, Jesus Christ, Christianity, Rick Warren (Author), The Purpose Driven Life: What On Earth Am I Here For? (Book), Christian Doctrine, Interview

Id: LImVHzy7WtU

Length: 98min 42sec (5922 seconds)

Published: Wed May 14 2014