Gospel Joy Panel Discussion: Piper, Meyer, Rigney, Stiles, Charles, & Onwuchekwa

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before we begin I'd just like to introduce the panelists again to familiarize ourselves with with their names so I'm Jonathan Bowers this is Joe rig me Jason Meyer John on Wacek WA max Stiles HP Charles jr. and John Piper so I'll begin with a question that someone raised regarding kind of coming out of pasture Jason's talked about Edwards and I would want to hear first John and HB from you just regarding Edwards and what we should do with his legacy regarding slavery and the question particularly concerns some of the discussion within the past year or so about should we cancel Edwards what do we do and I think we could extend the question more broadly even to the Puritans so I'm thinking two point put a point on the question you know I'm thinking of propagandas 2012 song about the Puritans asking why why didn't the things the Holy Spirit showed them in the valley of vision compel them to knock on their neighbor's door and say you can't own people so how how would you how do you personally handle Edwards the Puritans how would you Shepherd your people regarding that legacy and just help us with that so a year ago when we knew the conference was going to take place and the invite came and we talked and I saw Edwards was on the thing me and Jason had quite a few talks just about it and I first want to say man I appreciate the way that you started the talk and you didn't gloss over but you went and I thought that that was fantastic and so I'm grateful for that one of the things that I've wrestled with or gone back and forth with or at least will just say I don't like is I don't know if I like referring to it as a blind spot just frankly in the no I think it's possible for two for two people to live blind and one person actually be blind then it's unfortunate and the other person to turn a blind eye and that's not unfortunate that's reprehensible right and so I think Paul rebukes PETA not just because he didn't know but because no you turn a blind eye this is reprehensible I don't know which one it was for him for Edwards but I think we do a disservice to just refer to it as a blind spot and then move on right like there were people there that were saying like this is this is wrong and yeah part of it it just it's confusing and it's very very very tough for me just to know exactly what to do with it or how to think about his legacy yeah I'm grateful for this stuff he contributed but if I were doing a conference I don't know if I would I mean in a room full of people that look like me I don't know if I would do that not sent grateful for what we did I got a lot of good stuff but just for where I'm at it's tough and yeah I'll say this as well I think that a lot of times when we talk about the legacy of guys like this what we don't take into account is that there there are two streams right like this there's the good that he produced but there's a lot when you have a guy that intelligent and thoughtful as much as we want people to be Bereans and test the things that we say with God's Word largely if people find a hero than when it comes to really hard and complex things they'll say things like I don't have to think for myself I'm just gonna go to desiring God and see what John Piper says and that's what I believe right and I think maybe the same was true for Edwards and I wonder just how much of his leg Agassiz has spilled over into the other things that we've seen so that's what makes it personally tough for me and just even a little conflicted so yeah HB how about you sure I appreciate as well Jason's introductory remarks and I think it's a model in some regards that some things you just got a address head-on I think that's a starting place where you do not deny or ignore where these are contributions blind spots error sin and then I think as well that you've got to exalt right before a my own pulpit and in my own ministry I'm trying to focus on the truth and help my people remember that everybody got uses in a great way as a sinner and a jerk and I'm preaching through Mark's Gospel and these it's not a nice portrayal of the disciples of Jesus where points just seem clueless and I feel like just over the last chapter of my study and Mark am I seeing that's that's an intentional thing and it's a good thing and it's a wonderful thing because these are men that God used but they are not meant to be the hero of Jesus is and I feel like that needs to be expanded out and how we think through figures in church history and even contemporary figures that God uses but all of us miss it and I think that tension is a good thing to acknowledge and to confront as we teach and Shepherd our people I think the bad thing is to deny it and to sweep it under the rug and say this was great and use that to kind of clear away things that just really need to be addressed thank you and to continue in one aspect of the question I think in propaganda song he just talks about the the effect that hearing people quote from the Puritans has on him as an african-american and says things like would you quote Cortez - the Aztecs and so for ministry leaders pastors out here do you have advice for them about should they even quote Edwards in their sermon or should they refer to the Puritans given the effect that it has on many that are that are listening love to hear your advice on that I think Jonathan Edwards is absolutely brilliant and I've been helped by so much of the stuff that he's written and this concepts and themes that I pull from and I quote and and this is just me personally it could be right or wrong some time when I quote Edwards in my church I almost never use his name I'll say a pastor said yet the same way that you would is you preach and you vaguely remember what somebody says and you just let them know this is not mine this is a pastor I just refrained from using his name from the stage because from this stage I don't get a chance to go into the nuance about why use his name and what we do and things like that and so it just it seems like just for me where I am it could present more complications that I wouldn't get a chance to address so that's just me right that could be right or wrong but that's that's how I do it it should be anything you would add to that yeah I think I'm I would not have a problem there how I introduce a quote varies but I don't have problems out you know for me I can simply say whatever the quote is Charles Spurgeon said because to me if Charles Spurgeon said it is right but there so that I don't need it but there are other ways I introduce or set up a quotation and I'm factoring that in but I don't and I think it is helpful to give direct attribution in some of those regards when you are wrestling with ideas and you're trying to help your people to understand where this train of thought flows from and there are times I will make some qualifying statement sometimes in the heat of preaching I made simply say I agree with him here when he said and something that contributes to the argument that I am making here so I I wouldn't I would handle it differently but there are times I do think it is a place to qualify out a quote really said a little bit of just context be back story because I appreciate that and I think that's a helpful way to think through it and lest it come off like I'm saying I'm scared and I just try to avoid a few years ago we were met a couple that we hired to start to clean our church african-american couple cleaned our church they would come on Sundays one time and then they just kind of stay and they came through and we found out you know struggles in their marriage things were hard they got plugged in and involved really close into the life of the church came to a new member members class one day and then they left I didn't see him again they would clean the church and leave so we tracked him down and called him and said hey what's wrong well we went to the class and somebody asked what the nomination y'all were and y'all said Southern Baptists and we know that in 1845 the Southern Baptists were ok with sending racists out but if you were a rapist than then you can go and we just don't want any part of a church that would would do things like that and they left over a passing comment they were gone and we didn't have a chance to sit down and explain ourself in new one so just things like that that have gone on more than once have made me a little more sensitive especially in the climate that we're in right now and when everybody has Wikipedia and they don't like like really do the hard work and search they hear things and they see things that are tweeted and they form these big like thoughts and they put these stakes in the ground that shouldn't be there it just makes me as a pastor with folks that have that mindset in this climate very cautious about things that I may say from up front that would cause somebody to make a decision that I feel like may be unhelpful so that's a little bit of the context about why I do that but yeah I appreciate your words H be great thank you some themes that have arisen throughout the past few days could be in some some tension I think Joe you've acknowledged this in some of your talks but I'd love to hear Pastor John in and you weigh in in this and of course anyone else that feels led to but what is the line in your mind between enjoying the things of Earth and prosperity teaching where does it go off the rails in terms of idolizing the creation versus enjoying the creation yeah I had a had a fresh thought sitting down here I think maybe during your talk or maybe I shouldn't Johnson about making a distinction maybe so this is getting on your question I think but between something like indulgence and enjoyment because I was thinking about the fact that I'll say things and have said things written things to the effect that when I experienced a deep joy and it created things I take the governor off like so it was ways when you brought up the spiritual appetites need to bounce that's where it was and so I don't so I don't if I'm really having a great time with my kids I resist that little voice that comes into my head and says hey be careful be careful this might be don't let it be idolatry I've I've tried to that he still talks by telling to shut up because I want that joy to shoot through the roof because I believe it's carrying my joy and God with it so I was thinking so I li appetites need boundaries I said that last night and spiritual appetites don't so why don't when I'm enjoying certain good things like lemonade or my kids why do I let the let it shoot and I and I said it's the difference between indulgence and enjoyment meaning you can have a sip of lemonade and I'd say let your joy go as high as it wants because it's carrying your joy and God with it but that's different than saying I am just gonna guzzle this until I vomit something that makes sense like there's a difference but in its in its getting at some of what John was getting at with like the accumulation that greed like the more the more the more where the experience of joy can be as intense as it possibly can because you know it's just a taste of the goodness of God but if that intensity of the experience leads you to the false conclusion and therefore if I can just have more of the stuff quantitatively more money more lemonade more whatever if I can just do it all the time that will be better as false as lying and you'll find out soon enough that it that is false as I say maybe that that would be one place it's getting at I think your question of what differentiates is that the prosperity gospel says if I could just have them more stuff quantity as opposed to having a deep and rich and let it go kind of joy in whatever I have plenty or want that'd be it that'd be a big difference wouldn't you add that another way to say it would be when that created thing that you're enjoying you indulge in it to the extent that it hurts you or others it's it's destructive it starts to become something that rather than leading to enjoyment in God and growth and holiness it actually has a destructive impact on you or someone else or even your your faith yeah I get that Pastor John anything you would add to that two or three things one there probably is a instinctual difference between Joe and me I don't think there's any theoretical differences least I've never read any sentences that you've written that make me say that's the wrong way to do it so everything he said the other night last night was right and the indistinct what difference is I do listen to that voice more attentively than you do the oyster says be careful this is about to become an idol and and you would say that's that's why you're not as happy as you should and that may be right okay you got a schedule designed but I I frankly at 73 feel more endangered by comforts than ever I feel more endangered by things than ever more endangered by heat and air conditioning and food and leisure I feel more imperiled in my soul than I ever have so just stage in life I don't think so I think life experiences really dude Joe's got a whole a whole group of people that he's attentive to whose needs matter to him a lot you know you two they're not the same and you you you just good for you to know in ministry that your instincts and empathise will be forged in the furnace of relationships in your church that's the way it's going to be so that's the first observation second observation is the one helpful way to approach this the problem with the prosperity gospel is not what they get not their excess but their deficiency that is they don't have a theology of suffering if you develop in your church a very healthy theology of suffering just let all the New Testaments have their say that will be the best antidote against prosperity preaching because they'll they'll hear it and they'll say I was just so different than what I hear on Sunday my pastors happy but he's helping me be happy too and I did my dying he's helping me be happy in the losses of my child he's helping me be happy in the loss of my jobbies he's got a whole theology that makes joy free the kept to my enemies can't touch it it's a theology of suffering and that's missing and and the third thing is jets and $20,000 a nights hotel rooms are not examples of glutton yourself on God through your enjoyments there does come I mean Joe set up his four guardians what have you called him suffering and self-denial and to others those are so important get those right so that where is self-denial in the prosperity gospel where are their governors where where do you see evidence that this car this ring that he's wearing this hotel that he's staying in and and and this use of people to get that money is such a clear and beautiful picture of his delight in God is his treasure not stuff God has given us stuff so that we use it in a way that it can be clear that stuff is not our treasure that's why we have stuff I think the other thing to add would be in the prosperity gospel if you listen to these preachers they that they'll try to deal with a few texts and ignore the rest of the whole Council of God and they'll be like the people that Peter warned about there's things and Paul's letters that are difficult to understand the ignorant and unstable twist them to their destruction as they do the rest of the scriptures so the Bible can be twisted to make it say what you want it to say and and I think what you just said about a theology of suffering all of those texts all of those themes are just ignored 15-second advertisement this this new documentary that's just been released called the American gospel is excellent on clarifying what the prosperity gospel is and how it's different from the gospel I recommend it the American gospel just go get it you can rent it for like $2.99 I think at Amazon good Mac I'll direct this question to you someone asked and others can chime in someone asked any advice that you have for pastors kids for pastors shepherding their kids in helping to bring their children from just a familiarity with the gospel and the church to a real living and vibrant relationship with Jesus obviously that's only a work god can do but means that God uses that you have seen that could be helpful it was one thing perhaps unique for us was that we we weren't under the glare of the pastor position in a church we were always with university students who are cool to our kids you know so we were with students who loved Jesus and my kids looked up to them and in ways that are maybe somewhat unique so in terms of means it was helpful to get us around people older them than them but younger than us who were who were vibrant in the faith but I think for us the most important thing was living living out a marriage centered family so that the the focus was on our our love for each other LeAnn and I loving each other and loving God in such a way that our children saw that that was the the first order in the family because ultimately what what your children really longed to have I think in in life is a loving home they don't care how much you give them or what education you've got her if they're gonna go to an Ivy League school or all that stuff what they care about is having the security of a loving home parents that love each other and that's something everyone can give their kids you know that's something we can all do we we work at it we make sure that we we have it but so I would I would encourage people to go to a marriage centered understanding of the home where Christ is honored and and and the marriage relationship is honored in in that context so I think for us we were very aware that there were a number of things in our years about our children when we went overseas so we we left for the Middle East when our kids were 14 12 and 10 our 14 year old had come to faith on a short-term mission trip in Guatemala our our 12 year old was not a believer and our 10 year old was angry about going we didn't find out this out until an interview at a campus outreach gathering where they asked the kids what they thought about us going overseas and our son said he was 10 he said I thought my parents were the stupidest people in the world to do that and he was giving up some friends and things like that but we continue to pursue Christ and they watched that and they recognized that as we took risks for Christ that was a part of their calling too and so on a short-term youth trip to India he was asked to give a testimony he realized he didn't have one this is our youngest son and I was convicted I fell under conviction in India and came to faith so our our oldest son came to Christ on a short-term mission trip in Guatemala where we took him with some risk our our middle son came to Christ in Dubai we did not know that for a number of years later just given his autism and our our youngest son came to Christ on a short-term mission trip in India so I think just to say I think it's good to take risks with your kids and allow allow God's call in your life to to continue on and not say silly things like I don't want to go into missions because I'm worried about the kids you know they're one of the most dangerous places to raise your kids is America frankly so malece is a family-friendly place and as America goes the way it seems to be going I worry about my grandchildren here and your children so those are I mean there's there's lots of things about that but those would be some things I'd want to say right off Mary centered family take risks with your kids make sure they understand that your calling is their calling and one of the things that we did in a ministerial home that I think was important was we were very gentle with them about where they were in Christ we we had an hallelujah we'll see sort of response to their spiritual responses to two things and so and maybe we were overboard on this but our oldest son didn't get baptized so he was 17 even though he'd come to faith much earlier just because we were not sure you know we wanted to see some fruit of that we wanted to see him face the world the flesh and the devil and it wasn't until he said dad if you don't let me get baptized I am being disobedient to Jesus and I was like okay you know that that yes you go for it you know so our youngest son was just babka baptized a couple years ago he was 26 and same thing we wanted we wanted to be sure again there's some issues of autism there and then our youngest was also baptized about 17 18 years old so those were those were things that we wanted to see in a ministerial home and partly because our kids were so sweet and compliant we we just wanted to be gentle and careful about their own spiritual development right forward John and I were talking to connect something from his talk my talk on this question about kids because kids are an amazing opportunity for our joy and there's there's a there's a a really rich thing that happened so John's talking about the the more of Jesus we get through loving and I was talking about the more of Jesus we get through things of Earth right and our children are this amazing that's both and so I remember a story that a guy emailed me a friend of mine email me he one day he'd come home from work and this things had been really heavy and dark and he was just feeling and it was low and he had just read lived like a Narnian and in there I talked about how we fight the white witch through joy and feasting that's the way you fight the white witch and and so he had that kind of in the back of his head but it wasn't experientially present and so he said but I'm gonna do something so he did what John said and he said I'm gonna obey first and I'm gonna be the smile of God to my children is he got two-year-old and so he said I grabbed a sheet I threw it over the kitchen table we got glow sticks and we went around attacking items in the house for about an hour and a half and he said I went to bed that night full and light okay now there are layers of things happening in that moment that are good in every direction because it's good for that child to know that their safety and security and and you're building categories in them of justification by faith I am loved and accepted and delighted in by a happy father you are priming them to believe the gospel at two when you create a safe stable environment like Matt just said you're also increasing your own joy because you're doing what you're built for cuz your calling as a father is to be the smile of God to your children and you're doing it communally and then you're going to bed at night easy like their the anxiety and the pressures are lifted because of it right and so there's there is an amazing thing that God does when he plants Trinitarian joy in your living room with your kids and you ought to avail yourself of it and if your kids are experiencing the the fallenness of this world it's also good not just to say well let's let's have a glowstick fight but as part of discipleship teaching them to lament teaching them that lament is not a lead balloon where there's no hope it's like the only hope we have right now is in God so it's there's there's an authenticity factor to all of it and even in the I would argue after lament you're able to better engage in enjoy so that has to be part of it HP in light of your message about the parable of the seed yesterday how would you distinguish between fruitlessness in ministry that is a result of rocky soil and fruitlessness that's a result of a lazy sower well i think it's a matter of what comes to my mind first assess a matter of second timothy 2:15 and the command there to do your best to present yourself to God as one approved as a worker who has no need to be ashamed rightly handling the word of truth and from weekend to week out in pastoral preaching that needs to be my target and the gauge by which I measure my faithfulness to the task there is this sense of 2nd Samuel 24 verse 24 where you want to have the attitude of David about your preaching and about your work of ministry you don't want to offer to the Lord something that didn't cost you something and in that regard I don't want to kind of want to cheetah I don't want to cheat that process and my sermon preparation is a part of my it's a part of God's sanctifying process in my life and my shepherding of my congregation and I just need to be with God's help honest with myself about that the other fruitfulness are matters that are just beyond my control I have to faithfully get the word to their ears God has to get word to their hearts and what was not in the manuscript the reference to the brother that's in my church just kind of in the came to my mind as I was speaking and maybe the the illustration was a little clumsy but what I was trying to communicate is just in a very specific way the larger truth that our parable that you don't know what God is doing and sometimes we presume on that and we don't know and so it's just required of stewards first Corinthians four and two that they be faithful and I need to be faithful as a steward of the truth steward of the opportunity that I have and in that regard I've just gotta sleep with confidence that the things beyond that God is is able to control and that he does thank you and you mentioned that the harvest comes at the end of the age not at the end of the sermon how would you or others encourage somebody that seems to be laboring faithfully and is just not seeing fruit is it what would you say yeah I mean there's a tension there because I want to be clear you want to be faithful and fruitful but the challenge is you have to be faithful when it seems you are not being fruitful and in the I feel like earlier my pastor it I was always committed to the beginning of psycho Timothy four and to preach the word I think as I am maturing a whole that I am having a growing commitment to the end of that verse with complete patience and teaching and their patience is patience with people that I think God for men like Pastor John and the men who have influenced me by and large have been men who plant their flag and assignment and hang on until Jesus comes to get them one way or another because the real fruit can't be measured in an annual report or how did Sunday go and I think the most fateful what aids faithfulness is a very long view and there are times you have to plant your flag and hang in there in the midst of but seems to be dry seasons and when you see fruit don't assume it's fruit so you can get a Timothy or Simeon in Edwards ministry assume the awakening oh this is fruit turns out that they're not or when you don't see fruit don't assume there's not fruit because you can get somebody like Luke short in the ministry of John Flavel in which he's preaching Luke short is there as an eighteen year old and they move from England to America Luke short lives to be a hundred years old so 82 years later after that sermon he's thinking back on his life and he's thankful that he's an American looks back over all the things he has to be thankful for and he he looked back at John Flavel ministry and hated it said I hated him singing I was under the wrath of God and suddenly he realized I'm under the wrath of God and he remembered enough of the sermon about Christ taking on the curse for us the eighty two years later after that sermon he became saved because the Word of God doesn't return void doesn't return empty and so don't be arrogant that assumed I see everything I see all the fruit that could be we have no idea sometimes if you're not seeing fruit doesn't mean you're not seeing fruit here there's not fruit one one practical thing to consider if you're if you're a pastor in that kind of situation is because you want to know him am I the guy who it might be in a lazy store am i doing something wrong or is this just the hard season if I'm gonna go seven years or 15 years of nothing like so many of the Saints that we love and how do I know which which one I am right now one way to do that would be or to find out would be to start asking trusted people so other pastors and just say would you listen to my sermons and what that means is you're gonna have to have enough security in Jesus and his approval of you and not security and the fact that you're a pastor or your ministry to be able to really beg them to say tell me what you really think don't because I know if there's a pastor who's laboring and struggling and the fruits not there and he comes I don't want to beat him up you know like my disposition is not to want to just you know hey man your your application points were kind of iffy or that exegesis or that illustration or what I don't want to come down on is preach I don't want to beat him up anymore and so but if you're there you've got to ask people now I need you to do the deep dive and to tell me in my preaching or to meet with somebody and say here's what I'm trying to do with these people here's how I'm trying to visit them or here's here's things that I'm trying and and there is an element of experimentation and wisdom right like it's this isn't where so there's certain things that we know have to be there the preaching of the word right the worship of God the care of the flock but in terms of like practicalities it's an experimental science to figure out this people these sheep what do they need how can I meet them where they are and if you're the only one who's seeing it you're gonna you're gonna miss stuff and sewed it to say to somebody else hey would you do the deep dive here and tell me honestly including tell me if you don't think I should be doing this because that's possible there are people who went into ministry because they thought God was calling them there and they had it ahead of time and then they said that's not for God reveals that's not for me and they go and they get a job and they're unbelievably fruitful outside of pastoral ministry and there's no shame in that and so but the only way you're gonna know is if you if you don't have the hurt feelings or the fear of hurt feelings but you elicit wise people to do some evaluation of you I'd be a practical thing I think you could do I had seven years of dry ministry our first seven years in in the Middle East and then seven fruitful years so opposite of Joseph in part and Pharaoh but one of the things that was really helpful for me in those times was the contrast between Jeremiah and Jonah you know Jonah goes - none of us eight word sermon 120,000 people repent in sackcloth and ashes three days dude he is on the cover of leadership magazine you know that's kind of the Jeremiah on the other hand 40 years faithful horrible abuse he's put in stocks he's thrown in a sister and it hadn't been for an African guy to come rescue him you would have died there he's drugged off into captivity I've heard been putting stocks and spit on and mocked and abused and drugged off to Egypt very places said don't go at the end of his ministerial career and I I just I think sometimes you need to have a better view internally of what is success when I stand before God I don't want Jonah Jonah life I as successful as it was at the end of his life he are in them of the ministry we don't know what happened to Jonah but you know at the end of that time he's kicking dirt and telling God he doesn't like his character and you know I was obviously though joy Jeremiah was faithful to the inn he persevered and he's gonna stand before God and point to his life as faithful that's what we want the success of life now I understand we want to be fruitful i we long for that and and look at the fruitfulness of Jeremiah's writing you know so we we have testimony to great fruitfulness over millenniums as a result of Jeremiah's successful ministry to us who knows how God is going to use your faithfulness over time as well but I found that I found that helpful to me to remind myself of those things in the scripture when when we face those those periods so John you told us before the panel said if we don't mix it up is it gonna be boring we'll just have five different monologues or whatever so here's my best attempt in your last talk I appreciated the emphasis on obedience bringing joy so you emphasize there there's a joy in the hoop Amane that happens endurance I passed doc Ahmad so a pass there's joy in after you you come into your house like I'm not greedy I'm not all these things I think that's right but I think you missed a main thing that the New Testament says about obedience that it's not generic joy it is joy in those things but it's it's more emphatically a joy in Jesus than I think you said because you did say suffering how do you rejoice in suffering well it is a Philippians 3 I'm conformity to Christ I'm sharing in his sufferings it's an invitation to intimacy with him I think almost all commands are that so here's here's my argument if you go to Galatians 6:2 which you went to bear one another's burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ so in what way when you bear burdens how does that relate to the law of Christ well I think what he's saying is that these Commandments are being now recalibrated of found the christ event so that bearing one another's burdens now is an invitation to know the one who bore our burdens himself pre-eminently so now we're we're getting an invitation to intimacy with him as we bear other people's burdens it's Christ did this for me or the the tithe command no longer is it based on the paradigm of the Levitical system and if the tribes don't support the Levites they've got to go work in the field now Paul can say in terms of why we should give not just generally generously but sacrificially because second Corinthians 8:9 you know the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ who though he was rich yet for your sakes became poor so that by his poverty you might become rich now sacrificial giving is actually an invitation into the intimacy with the one who himself pre-eminently gave sacrificially and i think i could show that in text after text was that in your mind at all not in those categories no in fact I would push back on it because it sounds like you you you you feel the need to in order to say that act over the obedience tithing or bearing one another's burdens that the the locus of the joy needs to be in imputation no sadly that is he bore our burdens you participate in that so draw my attention back the fact that my burdens have been born and therefore as I bear burdens I'm participating if I miss that then good I surely meant to say over and over that the joy of obedience is joy in Christ himself not a distinct joy from the joy of Christ that you get when you different from joy in Christ Christ you joined Christ in receiving justification forgiveness acceptance and then he has more to do for you and it's a different taste and he bought it in the New Covenant and therefore when you triumph over selfishness and bear another person's burdens what you taste is Christ just did a work in me which he bought with his blood that's my effort to say we don't have competing Joy's here but they are different so I'm not sure what I what I didn't communicate that you want me to I think in New Testament ethics what you didn't communicate is that how how do Old Testament commands often differ from New Testament commands and I just want to point out the radical Christocentric nature of New Testament ethics so that Paul is it's just so repeatedly bringing us back to what Christ has done I wouldn't limit it to imputation or take John's gospel what's the new commandment in John 13 I if you look at Leviticus love your neighbor there's nothing new about love one another in that sense but the the standard or the calibration is different rather than now being a matter of self love love your neighbor as you love your self no the highest expression now of love standard is as I have loved you love one another so I think we just need to keep in our in our preaching of New Testament ethics that this this this christ event in all that he's done the New Testament Commandments are relentless in trying to tie us to a higher glory a higher spin you know what I would say there is that to love as Christ loved me is to pursue a purchase that he purchased for me that was different than any other good deed that's ever been done for me you know there's when you say Christ loved me and that becomes my my pattern what what does that mean what did you do and then you can start listening all things that he did and what I'm insisting is that what he did was purchase the connection between Philippians 2:12 and 2:13 work out your salvation for God is the one who has a work in you I want to taste that miracle right there that was a blood-bought miracle he is at work in me right now to help me to work out my salvation and the next thing is don't murmur about anything I would like to have an experience of a murmur free good deed a murmur free hospitality a murmur free approach to my my wife and that I don't feel at that moment like the impulse is sending me back but that pulling pulling from the cross into what it really accomplished here he accomplished a miracle for me by the Holy Spirit it relates to the article as it relates to my book on preaching do you make a beeline from every text of the cross or do you make a beeline from the cross to every text and my passion is that I fear that if if we say that every every command is is sending us backward instead of pulling the riches of the cross forward that we're gonna wind up preaching in the wrong way yeah I agree I'm I'm not subtracting from what you're saying there are definitely New Testament commands that aren't directly tied to what Christ has done how Christ is love his sacrifice I'm just saying I feel like that was under emphasized in your talk and maybe maybe there's a reason for it because you're reacting to people that that want to be too emphatic on that and they're missing their tax but that was a note I kept waiting to hear especially in the in the movement from Old Testament commands the New Testament commands it seems like there there's a new relentless emphasis to try to connect these commands to intimacy with Christ invitation to that the standard of what he's done I just didn't get that note so I don't want to subtract from anything you said I just want to add that here's another place where same same theology or same same theological position different theological instinct probably is at play and I'll just add a different instinct because we're Jason is saying I want to stress the radical newness discontinuity of what Jesus has brought I worry often that in our desire to stress the newness of the New Covenant we lose the deep continuity of what the way the world is by nature and always has been which means that the content like the actual moral requirements of what God wants from us have been the same from the beginning since he made Adam and Eve that content-wise like what what so Ten Commandments in the New Covenant what the New Covenant brings is the new motivation new power new goal all of those things are new because of what Jesus has done but the content of New Testament ethics is the same there's a deep continuity and so there's a probably a different instinct maybe in terms of where we're gonna want to lean on that continuity discontinuity there that's my guess I had a question for you too about you there's a word you didn't use in your talk it's a word that you used to jab at but I heard it in in the talk substantively this is the word duty it sounded to me like we there was a no dangerous duty of delight and it was kind of like there's a surprising delight of duty should be a good book if you want to write it y'all buy it so I'm wondering do you have any any just fresh thought I mean is that is is you were you talking about duty doing my duty and then getting joy on the far side of doing my duty and or is that is that a wrong way to think about what you were saying how you asked me that before and I said yeah I'm talking about duty but I don't think I use the word and that's what I'll tell them that there it is you're welcome there there's a section in desiring God where I try to illustrate how you should when the offering plate is coming down the row give if you don't feel like it and there's one group of ethicist that would say it doesn't matter how you feel do your duty you're supposed to tie a tie and I say that's the wrong answer that's not my answer and yet it's a real thing that you've got the money in your pocket and you could get an iPad or you could tithe and you really really would like a new iPad and we'll just pass on God's gift this week what should you do with that emotion and my answer is number one you repent that you don't love him as you are you don't rejoice in him as you want that's very different than say feelings don't matter I'm repenting number two I'm pleading for restore to me my delight in you above iPads oh god I feel awful right now and number three give in the anticipation of the promise that he'll restore the joy perhaps in the very moment of the giving so that that constellation of approaching duty not as do it anyway emotions don't matter that I'm rejecting that and this this message about what I would say is in fleshing out of those steps I just feel like that's so important because because we're where most of us live is Louis Lewis always said I'm the command to love God often means act like you love God in anticipation of the actual in other words you may not have the warm heart affections for God that you know you ought to have because the Bible says you ought to have them and so what do you do you don't sit around and wait for them Lewis says imagine what you would do imagine you were the kind of person who was filled with a full and increasing love of Jesus I can imagine that verse version of yourself who's so filled with the holy spirit so secure in the love of God that you are just full of him imagine what you would do now go do it even if you don't feel like it do the deeds of love do your duty in anticipation and I just think that that's in it for me daily that is a profoundly helpful thing to do to feel that and it's there it's an extremely dangerous extremely there's the instincts again right there because because I know of a marriage very close to me that broke because she said fake it to you make it that's what Christians are fake it till you make it that's a real danger so here's the difference would CS Lewis say like I say if you don't have the affections that should be driving this act of obedience are you brokenhearted because I think just a lot of people would say emotions don't matter Piper they don't matter you make too much of them and you make people feel awful because they don't have them and I would say if you try to fake it till you make it without that initial brokenness that that turns faking into genuine heartfelt humble longing for becoming a kind of person that you're not you're in big trouble without that so I don't know I don't know what Lewis said on the front end of act like a Christian I think he would I think he would say so he treats duty like a crutch he said you know in heaven you're not gonna nobody have to make you pray talk to God in heaven you're just gonna do it it's just gonna be just gonna be fruit it's gonna overflow but you're really broken right now and so you need a crutch and that crutch is called duty if you had legs you wouldn't need the crutch and so there I think there is a real recognition of the the fact that something is wrong with us that we don't love God as we ought to love our neighbor as ourself but in the meantime lean on the crutch until God gives I think I don't know that he goes as full in terms of that asking for help and fleshing out but but I think that the recognition of brokenness is there Tim Keller uses that from Lois and uses it as an example in his marriage book of not fake it till you make it but there is that aspect of repentance he actually uses a story of somebody in his church that he just had a hard time getting along with you know there's we hate to say it but there are people out there not in not in my church but maybe in some of yours in which they're hard to go along with and there is this person that Keller just he had read Lewis say that and so you know in a kind of brokenhearted way it's like I'm I'm gonna meet with this guy I'm gonna keep meeting with this guy and I'm gonna keep asking for this to become a want and he said it surprised him it's like developmental obedience like Little League and training he said one day we found ourselves we had a day off and Cathy and I were like what should we do and suddenly I said let's go visit so-and-so and they both looked at each other in shock wow we really want to so I think it's it's not either/or it's it's that sense of right now I wish I felt it it's but I'm gonna I'm gonna move forward in obedience to this and just pray that that God would change my heart towards it well speaking of Duty I have a duty to close at 12:15 so thank you brothers can you join me in thanking them for serving us so well these past few days just a couple of reminders for you the bookstore and the exhibitor area close at noon the luggage and the coat-check closes at 1:00 p.m. and the shuttles are still going on and there will keep taking you to the airport until 1:30 p.m. and finally we ask that you would turn in your evaluation forms to the ushers on the way out so I'll hand it over to Pastor John who's going to dismiss us with some final comments in prayer it takes an army to put on a conference I want to name some of the lieutenant's and and and after I read the list you can either say you're thankful or not but don't interrupt me okay because it will be here all afternoon the speakers thank you so much and all the seminar speakers who came David Clifford bless you brother who oversees the whole conference the director of this event and Amy gleeble Spanish translators rene gonzales and michael Galliano Jonathan thank you for being our hosts exhibitors and publishers Matthew Westar home bless you for leading our worship the event staff and coordinators volunteers over a hundred of them serving you the life way bookstore team all the sponsors especially cross way for our premier sponsors thank you all very very much [Applause] let me stand up and pray and be on our way into the bitter cold father who can stand before your cold and who can stand before your warmth so attractive so welcoming so satisfying and we bless you for it thank you for extending yourself into this world through Jesus Christ thank you for his perfection of obedience thank you for his patience in dying on our behalf thank you for bearing the curse for us and providing our righteousness thank you for raising him from the dead with his own glorious power and consent and I thank you Lord for pouring out the Holy Spirit on us and blood-bought enablement to go home and be the kind of people we longed to be so beyond us as we go give our ministry new power because of what we'd heard here I pray in Jesus name Amen
Info
Channel: Desiring God
Views: 17,712
Rating: 4.7220078 out of 5
Keywords: Desiring God, John Piper, God, Jesus Christ, Christianity, Christian Hedonism, Joy, Jonathan Edwards, Puritans, Slavery, Gifts, Delight, Ministry, Hope, Pastor, Preaching, Jason Meyer, Joe Rigney, Things of Earth, Obedience, Duty, H.B. Charles Jr, John Onwuchekwa, Mack Stiles
Id: 7eEa63o8La0
Channel Id: undefined
Length: 61min 36sec (3696 seconds)
Published: Mon Mar 18 2019
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