Garry Kasparov on Trump, Sanders, Clinton, Obama, and American Politics Today

hi I'm Bill Kristol welcome back to conversations I'm very pleased to be joined again by Gary Kasparov the World Chess Champion human rights and democracy activists in his in Russia is homeland and now living in America an astute observer of America for at least a quarter century and I thought often foreigners have the best understanding of what's happening in our own country from Tocqueville on and I thought we'd have a conversation not about the Soviet Union and its collapse and not about what happened afterwards as we've discussed before in the 90s and and after that but bit about America and it's a unusual moment you've been very outspoken in your views about this sort of seriousness of this moment so help us just analyze what what is happening why it's happening as we speak here on what is it June 7th 2016 anyway thanks for taking the time and so where are we at you've you've you followed America closely for what for three decades really Italy all Swedish yes when were your first year it's just I watched America even from a four I was having great interest you know in studying American democracy and the development of the democratic system here and I can say that it's yeah it's highly unusual this moment it's very serious but you know things like that happened before so it did happen you know overall you know time so just during a lifetime but you know it doesn't mean that you know things like that you know such you know dramatic changes you know cannot happen so no no one at no time is immune against the changes and I just want to say that it's you know it's a serious challenge but the resilience of democratic system you know must be tested from time to time and this is the moment you know that in my view will prove you know the strengths and and the resilience of American political system but just people should understand you know the change is inevitable you know sometimes you know reach a point worthy the old system is no longer functioning to sort of satisfy all the key players the the different interest in the society so I guess we have just reached this point what is it about the mo so let's be specific and that's a specific you it's this is so different why are we just having another election it's you know it's guys don't think it's an it's an election because you know we we saw in a during our lifetime you know moments were one party or another party two major parties one of them you know wasn't trouble so you could see this or the radical takeover in air just in pushing party to the two T to the to the extreme and you know this party was punished in air by losing to losing general elections but it's the first time when we see both parties you know push an arrow to do to the extreme and you know basically creating a sort of critical mass in the center that is you know is is is left with no proper representation you know I think that you know the the rise of Donald Trump on one side and Bernie Sanders on the side and let's not be mistaken in a building Sanders is the winner i dollars winner of the Democratic primary you know that since that's so yeah because Trump has gotten more attention and certainly I've been preoccupied with conservatism from Trump but let's talk about Sanders like this I think by the way both Trump and Sanders you know they there's like two sides of the same coin they just they it's it's it's the best indicators that the the temperature you know has risen the temperature that the body six so this is and you can see you can see the signs on both sides of the of the political spectrum Sanders revived the world socialism as a part of the mainstream debate and it's it's it's much more dangerous than people think because as you correctly stated you know Trump you know consume the old attention then of course you know Trump is just an individual you know I think it's very dangerous because he doesn't fit to be the president and and you know he also exposed the weakness in her in its fundamental weakness of Republican Party the GOP proved to be incapable of coming up with you know was a candidate at a time when the election was for them to lose so it's Hillary Clinton who was always inevitable and you know she is she is a bad candidate I would say she's fully the second worst candidate in the US history but gob managed to come up with the worst by far the worst so you know the party spent too much time the party so-called elite spend too much time you know trying to bring in another bush then when this they realize you know it was not working they they they couldn't agree on one candidate soo and it ended up with you know with with the party being in disarray and Trump is relatively you know small it's a relatively small support so maybe you know in mid series 35 36 percent you know he managed you know to take over the party by just using all sorts of you know aggressive and arrogant techniques but you know speaking about Trump you know we should pay attention to the sort of long-term threat it comes from the left because when you look at the demographics people who are voting for Trump or supporting Trump they are not going to decide the future of this country it's both in numbers but also is sort of in in quality in in intellect so there's a lot of you know power intellectual power and also the youth his ally has been allocated on the opposite side and they they're very little idea about socialism about all these ideological debates of the past and Bernie's rhetoric you know was was very inviting it's you know it's nice you know just it it painted you know some you know some pictures of the bright future and I think this trend you know is it might become dominant unless the conservative America comes up with a real alternative that will attract it the center this center that is left with with with so new proper political framework and what do you make of the Sanders appeal and some of it is just an alternative to Clinton I suppose but I mean people believe in socialism as an economic force is that people believe that something is wrong and it says and it's that this is the moment what do you have you know the the the the best opportunity so fertilized ground for demagogues and populist both on the right and the left rise and this is very dangerous because the rice at the same time which shows you know the great dissatisfaction and they win because they offer a vision you know I mean Trump doesn't have a proper vision to change views Bernie's solid you know in just in offering vision but they're trying to speak in plain language there's a state they're trying to come up with simple solutions and you know people you know you can hardly blame people you know following these two these two demagogues and populist because this is nothing else you know that there's no alternative so there's no vision for the future so it's it's you know trying to to hit Trump or Sanders you know is just with with a solar smoke with punches you know that's wrong that's wrong this is it's all going to work because you know you have to come up with a comprehensive vision that will and I will you know helped to revive America because they both talked about reviving American just in just in their own terms but you know going back to the roots to the duty sort of interpretive spirit of the country you know to chew and to explain to Amin to the American public especially to the to the to american use i mean what were the reasons of the great success of this country why this country was so dominant you know why you know in in two hundred years you know they're the great predecessors were able to build the country that is still shining you know despite of so many problems and wrongdoings and this is not you know just a simple about building walls or redistributed worlds it's about you know reviving the spirit of capitalism it's reviving the spirit of competition and you know creating political institutions that will represent the interest of the majority that will stop fighting you know fight that's already over so we we will not you know will not have you know debates that that's already you know just it's it's it's long overdue so it's it's that's done so we just have to look at in the future and that's why i think that it's the most parties will undergo significant transformation i think that let's talk about that on the democratic side first because the obvious answer to you as well Sandra is about it seems to lose the Democratic nomination to Hillary Clinton so he was a protest candidate he lost and what's why are you taking it so seriously because because the majority of intellectual Democrats do use when you look at demographics they are behind Saunders and osoo so you think he's winning even though he's losing he already want but this is but also has one powerful ally that hasn't spoken yet and I think many people just simply ignore the fact that these powerful ally is not going anywhere his name is Barack Obama talk about that yeah I'm sure Obama has been watching these primaries you know with greatest joy because it exposed Hillary and show how weak she's she was and and boom she's allowed candidate he proved it eight years ago and now she's winning because you know it's just it's Democratic parties it's very much you know the private enterprise of quintals family right and I think people just you know didn't pay enough attention to Obama's statement that he would stay in DC for at least two years I don't I don't think anybody can buy seriously his argument that he wants his youngest daughter to sort of the to finish her school there correct me if I'm wrong you know except Woodrow Wilson who was you know who was terminally ill I mean no US president state in DC you know after you know after leaving the office right the custom has been to leave yes sir staying in DC it's a it's it's a message and I don't think Obama I was very young kid it very popular you know just you know you could raise a lot of money you could go to DC or you go from DC to New York to Los Angeles I mean if they won't come up with everywhere you know by the liberal crowd but he wants to stay there now staying in DC means he will it believes he could play a role what kind of role he can play if another Democrat and namely Hillary Clinton is the president and I don't think there was a LOF lost between Clinton and Obama that's true I believe Obama so what kind of role could he play but what sure this I think I do I think but I think in a Hillary we forced to have a progressive VP I think it might be a young Sanders ok Sanders someone was like similar views very much you know online was Obama's vision of the future and I wouldn't be surprised at Hillary's destino she is 70 turning 70 she's you know health is not great in 2020 this VP will run as the as the first progressive candidate and I think by that time the party will be totally under control of Obama's you know vision of socialism so you take Sanders in a way as the heir to Obama or the carrying forth Sanders Sanders you know it's a kind of eyes icebreaker for Obama you know we just you know Sanders expose the weakness of Democratic establishment and and while you know it's now Candido just it's it's it's it's for Hillary I mean let's have it for her and sure there will be many arguments next year the hamlets anniversary a feeder of the amendment of the Constitution that gave woman's right to vote so I mean you can have a lot of in a nice stories why Hillary should be the president and she will do a lot of good things for Democrats she will get you a guarantee the control of Supreme Court for next 25 years but I think Obama is planning to have a significant role if most decisive role is mine to shape American policy hasn't finished his job he moved the country in this direction but he hasn't finished his job and I think now he feels that with Republican Party in disarray was there real opposition where's you know just and was a chance to retake the Senate maybe the house and who to take control of Supreme Court he can you know fulfill his agenda to characterize characterize that agenda how does it look to you have no one ever watched him closely for 700 we know where this is it's the agenda is you know it's the foreign policy very apologetic so just you know he believes America is a sort of the isn't prime source off of a trouble some may say but even evil in the world so he is that you he doesn't want America just you to continue its its leadership role and here in it in the United States you know it is domestic agenda will be to create an all-powerful state Obamacare is just the first step and I think will you know will will see much more not only single pair but I think we'll see much more power okay to allocate in the hands of the state and and we'll see now just this the total accumulation of the functions that used to belong to to to to American people and other institutions in hands of the federal government so you drop by they are here with their Obama's been a week and failed President Obama is one of the most successful presidents in history because you know we can disagree and we should disagree with his agenda but he's succeeded in pushing his room and he know overseas over in this eight years period all the two years he enjoyed support of of majority in the Senate in the house so he did it you know by facing to no opposition from from the hill and Republicans failed to stop him pushing you know his agenda when he couldn't do it you know was like lame-duck House and Senate in 2010 he did executive orders and he proved to be very capable in selling his agenda he's a great communicator and you know it's I think people make a mistake by disagreeing cuz what he represented with the success of the implementation of his agenda which I think was phenomenal and now when you know when the Republican Party will be such a hot terrible shape and I believe you know it's it's it's Dow itself it's facing you know it's it's it's extinction because the party the party that that pronounces Donald Trump you know the next president of that states I think is no longer viable political institution I mean you've been coming here since the end of the Cold War I'm sure you've given some thought how did we end up with this powerful agenda that President Obama was able to get elected and South to the American people I don't think we would have necessarily predicted that this was where we would be what to it at 25 years quarter century after the the end of the Cold War Oh in my latest book winter's coming so I tried to explain know the failures of u.s. foreign policy you know which was no longer consistent after the end of the Cold War and its war more like a pendulum swinging from one side to another so Bill Clinton did their little WD too much Obama has been doing nothing but I think it also had an effect you know domestically yeah I'm struck I mean we're thinking back to the nineties we all thought that liberalism was now mature sophisticated market friendly fairly tough even in some ways in foreign policy so that was the Clinton Blair kind of third way on the left and then of course conservatives the bush george w bush in 2000 compassionate conservatism it looked like the center everyone's moving to the center did you say sort of happy you know not to ideological politics it really does look amazingly different today it's a good example of how one can be totally misled by taking a snapshot look at a particular situation you know that's turned out to be very weak on both sides don't you think the oh absolutely we are facing now and this is you pointed out just to Europe it's not just an American problem you know the disappearance of the center you know it's the of the mainstream political parties you know it's sort of like it's it's it's a common it's a common case from Eastern Europe to the United States so of course it's it could have much more profound consequences in United States because it's it's still the leader of the free world you know and and anything that happens here you know well you know will influence the world you know whether you know whether people here think about it or not but you know I just want just to have a brief look at the European continent and you know just to analyze you know that it's this this that this process of of the solution of what we believe you know was a center or you may call you know the staple of the political system I mean let's look at Greece now the country is being ground by you know by hard left and Alpher nationalist coalition you say okay Greece is not in a typical so that's that's a special country let's look at Austria it's a very solid country now the presidential elections both parties you know representing the center in l dick the the Conservatives and and and Social Democrats they were wiped out of presidential elections and the so the the second ballot the was a fight between ultra nationalist and hard left candidate representing the Green Party so the Green Party won by by razor-thin margin yeah but and look at England out and the United Kingdom so the Labour is party the Labour Party has been taken over by change Corbin man was back bencher for decades you know nobody thought that he would you know he would every now move from Sophie or his backbench in air just to the front now he's just he's in charge and and again without pointing out and help other countries like you know we could see the the rise of ultra nationalist in Germany we could we see the very powerful nationalist party in the firmness and now in France we could see that in nationalist are leading in polls are in in Holland and we could see you know leading the left-wing hard left groups are also sort of gaining in the course like in Spain for demos just you know it's the end of the traditional policies we we knew and it just tells us that these parties are no longer you know reflecting the aspirations of those who voted for them because they for many voters they seem alike and since they eat there they don't offer the vision and that brings us back to 1991 you win the war you sort of end the chapter and you have to start writing new chapter and you need you need your strategy it's a long-term vision what we want to achieve you know what is the plan this is this is what you know what makes democracy unique and so powerful that were not you know we're not reactive but we're proactive and we serve we failed this sense of urgency were no longer coming up with long term plans and westech nading and at the time of sig nations the voters they have no more trust in the sort of established political institutions and if we you know if you make projections from european politics to America I think it's the change of the political landscape here is inevitable and it's you know the the future winners will be those who are ready to recognize the inevitability of change today and will come up with an agenda and you know will create a gravitas for the millions and millions of people who just you know who see no alternative but don't want to join in a one extreme or another these people will you know they'll have to be guided and it's time to start creating the alternative it is startling I mean I remember back even in 2003 people not forget of course all the Democratic leaders were in agreement basically with Bush's foreign policy some of the rhetoric they thought went a little far they voted for the war in Iraq obviously John Kerry the next nominee Hillary Clinton the nominate Howard Dean was a little kind of leading indicator turned out really of Obama who in turn as you say is a leading indicator of where the whole quote progressive movement is going and on the right - you know Bush was president he was comfortable as another Bush it was very old fashioned Republican party I think 2008 had a big effect - obviously and shattering people's belief and confidence in the political and economic elites some of the difficulties in Iraq and elsewhere damaged people's confidence in the foreign policy elites you put it all together you do have a situation which is you say we've seen before in America but I don't know I'm trying to think it's pretty big though don't you think it's pretty unusual this degree of collapse of confidence in the establishment and in the elites in both sides without any obvious leaders to to rally the rally behind I if we go all the way back in the US history so I could think of nothing less or more depends how you look at this uh mid fifties of the 19th century yeah where is both Vic's and Democrats you know just facing inevitable split Democrats splitting for north and selves and Vic's splitting for new GOP and and no nothing right so I think it's fairly similar now of course the agenda is different but we are seeing both parties you know you know being torn apart by by very powerful extreme wings in the party now the because the ball is on the Republican side now because Democrats in its you know it's it's like you can hardly expect some Democrats and I believe many of them are just you know horrified by by Bernie Sanders agenda and by the prospect that we've discussed now I don't think they just you know they're not seeing you know they did this trend but they are on the winning side it's much more difficult to revolt when you have the part of your party is willing and it's very clear that you know there will be triumphant in this election cycle so the Republican Party now is just you know has to do something since I don't see how this institution is capable of winning general elections and if you don't win general elections why are you there so this is I'm curious you know just you and I'm I would say very much annoyed by by this very narrow sort of timid reaction of Republican leaders here who are just trying just have to find a middle ground you know look a you know just tell me whether you believe in some ideas or not and be you know if you say oh we are pragmatic but you should understand this is it's this party cannot be revived you know after Donald Trump's disastrous performance you have believed is inevitable which will also affect the the the GOP performance bills in the House and the Senate and in a whoop will will give Democrats you know unique opportunity sort of push their progressive agenda and push the country full of the left I mean you just have to come up with a plan for 2018 and 2020 and this plan cannot be connected to to to party a party structure that still in there has thirty thirty five percent of those who brought Trump you know you cannot build coalition winning coalition's you know they should be they should build you know with with with you know with a vision of the future and the current Republican coalition you know is doomed to lose general elections forever so that's why I yen I still hope that Republican Party will find you leaders that will be able just rise sort of above this you know this is the the current fray of cover this and also will you know create a gravitas for many Democrats you just you to to join because it's very clear what agenda you know is needed for the country and what can attract millions and millions of people that are just simply an hour just just lost between these two to two polls to extremes I'm not just was drunk and trying to persuade whip up the Republican elites of what you will you just eloquently said I mean they just don't grasp I think how what the world would look like after five months of apologizing for and justifying and excusing Donald Trump I mean they've had a little taste of it we're speaking out what Tuesday June seventh they have had a little taste of it in the last week with Trump's comments about the quote and he's not you know he's not an official nominee yet right he's not a nominee yet and they're already seeing what damage is doing and what is it gonna be like for five months to be both politically I think in terms of Democrats running ads saying well you say this is a terrible thing for someone to say but then you support him what's the story but also just more psychologically in terms of just looking like it's so weak so so again this is the the Trump helped create political climate war people don't vote for but they vote against and Trump you know I can say probably the best recruiter for a Democratic Party actually for the progressive wing of the Democratic Party because you know it's this the alternative is you know if alternative is between you know the progressive agenda and Trump a lot of people say okay so maybe you know we can recovery now from this economic collapse and we don't like socialists but Trump could yeah it could be the world war three I mean man is eazy-e that doesn't fit you know just to be near near the nuclear button so it's all about alternatives you know this elections is about just making the choice sometimes it's for less evil but I think this great country could do much better than just you know just choosing between Donald frommel Hillary Clinton I'm certainly with you on that but I think the Austrian election which I didn't pay close attention to but which you summarized well M is a good example here which is the end of the day the green candidate nipped really barely beat the far right candidate and most I think respectable people said okay the green is the lesser of two evils and oh absolutely but it shows how far we've come yeah that the Austrian is hardly different so had to accept a kind of hard left candidate you could imagine that happening with a lot of people in America I think a lot of young people will decide what that's the choice we face you can hardly blame them because don't Trump well you know we'll keep doing this job by just you know telling them that you know this is the hard left might be D they the only choice for them believe was Sir Paul Ryan or you know Ben Sasse or one of the many Republicans who either uncomfortable with drop or some of them were refusing to support Trump the people who Marco Rubio all the people who allegedly are thinking about running next time at all if they could if you were in the room with them and you've been into it with some of them but say if you had them now here what would you tell them I mean not so much the short-term tactics of handling Trump and whether to run or not as an independent but what is the message they need to be saying that's different from and it contrasts with traum who oh it's I mean from changes use message every day so that's fine right it's so difficult to be different to be different now again the two sets of arguments one is on the side of ideology of the agenda it's just you know you have to be serious and you have to you you have to look like a serious candidate who could attract millions and millions of people you know not only from the Republican Party but also from the center and from Democrats and the coalition that will you know will secure the victory in 2020 will be very different from any traditional coalition we saw before so I think it led if the politics now will be shifted in air just you know to some kind of you know the sort of odd centrist combination and some one who can grasp in the aspirations of these people there will be a potential winner but second is you know if these potential candidates people you mentioned or others if they think they can run you know on the GOP ticket after GOP nomination Donald Trump they are dead wrong yeah the party which nominates Donald Trump will never win general elections you know that's they have to understand it because crumple mobilize our people to the other side and it's it's an indelible stain so how can you talk about ideas how can you talk about you know the vision of the future if you just you know supported the candidate who was just you know so unintellectual so just so you know empty with Lincoln that's full hot air you know because it's not about you know ideas it's all about you know just you know selling sound bites you have to go beyond sound bites you just have to look at in the future and now it's time to lay foundation for that and again there are many people on the Democratic side that might follow but you don't expect them to take a lead because they are they're part of the winning polish right now that gets very much the case I've found that over the last few weeks trying to find people that there are a lot of Democrats were sympathetic to such an effort but relatively few are willing to step out because you know they can live with Hillary Clinton and she's probably good she's gonna win the nomination and probably win the election and why should they put themselves at risk but the Republican but I am struck the Republican elected officials do not have the sense of urgency that you just described they think you know it's like with Goldwater maybe in 64 we nominally support him we don't do much we keep our head down we put out some good policy ideas and then he loses that we emerge the day after the election and say okay that's done that's over now let's move ahead and and they don't they don't believe yet that the Republican Party is in a way fair was a legitimate candidate whose ideology and let's not forget you know who represented Goldwater in the final speech exactly it was you know it just was too conservative right you know you just bear just but but it was a set of ideas that actually won you know 16 years later and a decent person I mean no one thought that you're recovering we're not patriotic Americans right you know it was a debate you know so this is debate between two visions for America you know right now it's just you know Trump is not about the vision actually Hill is not also about the vision so we just you know she wants it so badly and then I get the party now basically hands it over to her and and now you know the Republican Party that could you know could come up with a decent candidate and believe almost any candidate from from the 17 that we could see at the stage you know at the beginning of this process almost any of them could be a favorite in in in this fight the problem party failed to to come up with with this little alternative and you know in you pay and this the the party will pay I think by you know by by its ultimate price it's it's Trump is is okay it's a it's a very flamboyant way of committing suicide yeah that's that's good now I've been struck by I've come to this you I think once thought I was always anti Trump of course and in foreign independent candidate but I once thought well at the end of the day the independent Republican runs he wholly or she holds the Republican flag aloft so the Republicans don't look like they're just a Trump party and then you go back to the Republican Party of Marco Rubio Scott Walker and Ben Sasse and everyone in January 2017 I actually doubt that that's possible now I think the degree to which it's about it's again it's the general elections it's about building coalition you know it's the forget about people whose opponent Trump I mean it's just you you don't you don't own this coalition because because these people yes it's it's it's a sizable part of American population you know thirty percent of Republican party maybe ten percent of American population but if you have this ten percent you lose twenty percent that you could get from the center so there's much bigger fish to fry in the center you know so and that's where if you look at because this is you know it's it's a unique moment well you have to come up with a new vision and again I'm not here just to formulate all this ideas but as a professional player I can tell you this is the right time so and you need you know you have to you have to show you know your leader qualities it's it's it's about someone to to take a risk again risk you know it doesn't mean you're going to win if you take that risk you can lose but people you know the pay attention someone who's taking risk and they just you know at such moments they just realize okay this person you know is you know he has ideas he believes in them and you know we can trust him that you know he could go again sort of these sort of the conventional wisdom he could go against this of the very powerful trend and he could go against his party because it part it's because he believed in ideas and he put ideas sort of beyond a very short term a foolish party interest I think it's such an important point that people it's so hard to get people to see that of course people are risk averse politicians are risk averse successful politicians are especially risk averse if they've already reached a certain level it's harder for them to take the gamble you know I think also all understandable you know it's now I agree with it's terrible this is the moment you know we're just there's some historic moments would you have to make decisions that are just you know they're tough and people should think about this who are the most consequential American presidents in the last you know half century presumably Reagan and Obama think we would say Reagan as you said indicated gives this his famous speeches real entry into American politics is the speech on behalf of a candidate who gets commerce and you know everyone the normal analysis would have been and I think it was incidentally the day after the election and 64 well anyone who spoke off the cold water I mean he can't he has no future you know but people thought well he said what he believed he did it in a decent way he didn't pander again you know his vision what he didn't pander to you know bad elwood bad instincts other elements of the party he then runs in 1966 it defeats the establishment candidate in the primary for governor of California defeats the incumbent Governor of California runs again in 76 against an incumbent Republican presidents just few votes estimates that I mean people forget how much risk of a risk-taker think of that ever the Reagan was so easy at each stage to take the more conventional view and Obama Obama and oh three immediate make a huge deal to his opposition to the war he wasn't famous he was a state senator still you gotta say what everyone else said it's political suicide just not support the war you know and Hillary supported it and John Kerry supported it Obama said no this is a mistake and whether he's right or wrong I don't agree with him but he that's what got him elected in 2008 so the risk-taking of the risk-taking worst you know and Obama is very consistent you know just he's extremely you know he's adamant you know when it when it comes to easy to do poor his agenda and you know he did he didn't make any compromise so it is it's basically my way or highway and you know even with significant about majority in the house and eventual in the Senate they failed to stop his agenda because again people you know people had more trust in him people who followed Obama they their trust so I think their confidence that Obama was defending the interest again no matter what we think about you know this agenda but he had you know he had followers that believed in him and we the Republican primaries demonstrated that the Republican voters had no confidence they didn't trust their their leader so that's why every time there was a showdown in DC Obama won I suppose the agenda going forward would be a combination of what kind of assuming our responsibilities abroad defending Liberty and defending the country and a kind of innovation and self-government at home absolutely no it's a it's a risk-taking agenda I guess again that's what made America great so it's it's it's it's about innovations it's about yet rebuilding the country I mean this is the there's so many great things can happen in this country if you just review this potential I mean the capitalism hasn't betrayed America America has betrayed capitalism so just you know going back to you to two truths and also you know assuming the leadership role that's what the world expects America can do many great things in the world and if America walks away it creates vacuum and it will just make things much worse and of course I think there's there's certain battles that were the over and it's against the I think they're in the Republican side you should understand you know the many battles of the social social issues they have they've gone so it's over you know so you don't fight you know the the fights that are just just gone you know you can think whatever you want about them but it's it's over you should look in the future and the future is is it's about I believe you it's tits fiscal conservatism is about risk-taking it's about building America America's greatness by not bringing jobs back this is you know it's it's it sounds ridiculous to me America doesn't bring jobs back America creates new jobs so it's about creating new jobs new industries you know just you know creating pa-o some something that it just doesn't exist today you know from AI to space exploration so you know leading the world and of course you know just being strong so being strong and there many things that you could do things education you know that's the basic infrastructure in the country I know it's this so much can be done but it's not should be done by you know the state and through the state channels the state should you know lead the way but you know the government the government let people you know use the energy creativity sort of enterpreneurship to you know to build the American 21st century yeah and restoring self-government and absent and that's the Constitution and the world for that that's what what what Obama has successfully not destroyed but damaged yeah that's the depressing thought what about young people you spent a lot of time on campuses and speaking to young people I guess the conventional view might be well they're they're all voting for Sanders and they have to be very hard to get them out to this agenda do you correct it's you know it does happen overnight so we you know over decades you know in American universities there was just you know propaganda of ideas that that were no quite opposite Judy to the spirit of American democracy and a free market and now I'm surprised to see these young people you know just flocking to support Sanders because he offers something that you know they think you know can work you know there are problems with student loans you know there are it's the it's when you just for Mom and you know you're just wearing the shoes of this you know 25 26 year-old boys and girls you know just graduating just have to look for jobs and you know just they have to build their lives their families new families they have to pay back their loans and and then on so many jobs so this is the it's the the again we are we reach the point where the traditional algorithm you know is there when you go to go to school and then from school you go to college you know then you just graduate and then you get a job I mean this mechanism is no longer working because you know when you look at what kids are learning in this process you know at the time one day we'll be looking for jobs all they learned becomes redundant so that's it's again new challenges you know it's no longer you know traditional process of educating kids it's not one-way street it's not that featured teacher in our standing in the center of the classroom as the sole source of authority and and knowledge it's a two-way street it's in an iPad generation so we just have to find new ways of educating them and it's it's not about what we what we teach them it's about how we teach them so it's we we need to empower them with tools again there's so much potential in each individual you know and and this country you know always had unique conditions to real this potential and we just have to you know make sure that you know they do we will connect again the educational process and you know the the they're the future jobs the future you know entrepreneurial ideas we just have to make sure that these kids you know they will you know they will understand you know the world that we live in and there will not be hijacked by by the ideas of the past even if they are wrapped in Nice paper you know just you know it was was only the 21st century you know bells and whistles it's still you know the old you know rotten idea that never worked before and never created wells but always destroyed it and I suppose the sort of the definition of decadence is almost the collapse of risk-taking a kind of combination of complacency and fatalism that you can't do much and we should just make the best of a very are limited and shrinking circumstances I mean how worried are you that that on the one end that cuts against the American grain and presumably Americans don't want to live in that world suppose they could talk themselves into thinking that's all we have or I mean how worried are you about the sort of current condition of the society the culture or the this I mean is it is it just bad luck that we ended up a Sanders and Trump and and people aren't stepping up and it would be easy to revive public spirit and and risk-taking it's not easy to rewire because in Trump and Sanders they're reflecting you know some much deeper problems and we should look at these deeper problems we should understand them we should understand why we reach the point where in a trumpet Sanders they're just in representing ideologically if you make all that logically two major American parties so in my view it's just you know it's it's it requires us to to you know not just analyze that's what's happened in the past but also with you to find common ground for the majority of the of the country and for the free world you know how to move how to move forward but it's very important what keeping all sort of the the positive attitude you know people are funny now who asked me about you know my views of the future and you know it's why I'm always you know what I mean an optimist and I say look if if I have an optimistic view of the future I could the right that could wrong but if I believe the future is bleak it will be bleak for sure structure talking to you as a kind of European intellectual what does the state distinctive view you have of America I wouldn't say it's the typical view that Europeans have even Europeans who are politically congenial I would find congenial who I admire very very much who were fighters for freedom and the Cold War but they tend to have a more jaded kind of distance European view of America it's kind of a little bit silly and they're very enthusiastic and but the European view of the world was kind of more no serious sophisticated and I don't know you seem to have more of a sense that a that America really is crucial to the future and that there's a kind of and not just because it's big and strong but because I'm at something that the American spirit is an important part of the human spirit if I can put it too grandiose away you know so I could I can try to divide this unity issues yes intellectually I'm European so that's the you know part of European culture or so and I you know I think that's the somehow European universities especially those in the UK they're just you know they more cosmopolitan service and by the way you know less influenced by by the hard left propaganda ironically but you know I'm I'm all I was looked at a big picture and in a for me you know from the very beginning you know just of my conscious life it was justified between in the free world and I'm free wall between communism and the free world led by the United States led by the United States and the battle is not over you know and you know denying the fact that the United States of America is the leader of the free world you know it's just it's not doing a good service to our cause and leadership is is not you know necessarily just you know has a components of a cultural leadership that as I said you can divide these things but it's also not only military it's not about policing the world this is about the spirit you know the spirit of the free world which is the spirit of innovations and risk-taking you know has been always represented by the United States much stronger than in Europe when you look at you know all the great things that we use now this is this whatever the European think about in America maybe you know not being so smart you know but you know everything that we have in our pockets you know now in our bags you know all these new technologies you know it you know it could be made elsewhere in China and Vietnam but it's originated its conceived invent it in one of the American garages so that tells you something about about the spirit of the country when you just look at the history of of this country for you know last 150 years in air from the end of the Civil War to nowadays just in those it's it's it's it's almost you know it's unbroken period so just it's of innovations of constant challenge itself creating new things it's it's you know it's it's boiling all the time so it's and you know it's also as a melting pot you know it brought you know immigrants from different countries you know so it it created conditions were people who could bring the best sometimes the worst from there from there from the countries of origin and from their cultures from their habits and traditions I mean they could not just coexist but they could just you know they can merge been in nation so it's still you know has this huge potential though of course you know it doesn't have the same you know it's not the same vibration as before but it will be it will not be smart you know for European intellectual who who is trying to see this big picture to deny the fact that unless America you reassesses its role in the world and and and and assumes a leadership role again the world will well be in big trouble yes I'm struck how much you're not a traditional conservative with a little see in a sense of let's preserve the best of the past which I three or four and I think you don't respect the Constitution and so forth that I am structures how much you emphasize innovation and risk-taking but it's there but this again it's just it's the the fact that America was so successful is very much today is is engraved in the foundation of the Republic know people people often our Justine I think that mistaken by the sort of the short American history so just this the it's you know you can start in accounting you know all the way down to you know just to at the beginning of seventh century but you know it's this holiday history of the country just you know it's less than twelve fifty years but when you just look at at the political system you know and from you know from the approval of the Constitution you know to do these days so we're talking about two hundred pleasure twenty thirty thirty years this is the problem most stable political system okay maybe the United Kingdom but this but if you look at all of the European countries you know they you know they underwent you know drastic transitions so America you know had a system that is very much you know it's connected you know you can see the connectivity between the current system and what was you know the the ideas lay down by the founding fathers yes there were changes there were some upheavals there was it was a civil war but at the end of the day you know there's the bbb-but the basis for for political basis for the Republic you know the the main ideas that regulated the relations between the governments federal government and and the state and add sort of municipal institutions they all hate her so and that tells you that you know this you know it's it worked he rode it did work and trying to adjust to them to the demands of the time it's it's counterproductive because times can change but you know the the sort of the the foundation of what you know help you to build the most successful economy and most you know sustainable democracy in the world you know should not be realized and you've thought a lot of sure about risk-taking is a you know it's a chess player and it's a geo political analyst and a cultural sort of thinker I mean yeah just curious what are what are the key how some young person's watching and saying well I think I have that temperament but I don't know I sometimes think may you maybe I should go the safer path maybe it's a mistake I mean what have you found over this decades in terms of what allows you to judge what risks are worth taking or how to get temperamental you know in a place where you can sort of have the confidence to do what you to take the risks you might take look it's it's it's very individual so there's no Universal team there's no magic pill that you know you you take and and you become you know so great you know decision maker people are different you know some of us are more aggressive some of us are in a more defensive there's nothing wrong about being you know needed dynamic or just more cautious it's all about you know knowing who you are it's all about you know you know reading yourself and being relentless and analyzing to your strengths and witnesses and you know some people you know you should you should be more decisive in taking risks um be more cautious but in you know statistically you know it's you know taking risk you know I believe it's more beneficial because unless you learn from your you know risk taking decisions even from failures you will never improve so if you want to improve if you want to reveal your potential you have to take risk D in modern environment you know this is you know well attackers advantage it doesn't mean you you are you are so you're doomed to to succeed you know you can fail but in big numbers you know your chances of overall success or improved I was I'm just curious now is was there a moment in your own biography especially in just playing biography where you really saw this or came to oh you always were an aggressive player and you just got it got better and better I was there a moment you sort of thought to yourself well your coach said to you you've got you know now but it's it's it's you know I learned you know how to sort of analyze the moves I made good news or bad news so it is always you know plenty of very useful valuable information from your own decisions and since I was involved in our own just fighting you know that and at the top of the professional chess from early age so at plenty of information available for analysis and as long as you are capable of analyzing your moves are your decisions as long as you're comfortable or if you just of criticizing your for making mistakes and you know even finding what you did wrong in a game one because they're always mistakes it in that grosses you are fine so it's it's it's all about you know your you know your ability to improve and you know the the reason why I was able to stay on top of the wall of for so long was that winning the game was not sort of the only priority of course winning or losing you know that's that's the game of chess to another game but I thought it would be very important to make the difference making the difference again as long as you you are trying to make to make this difference and just to change something you know no matter small or big again you're fine because it means you are you know your body your brain see there justice this is if they're all working synergy and they are just trying to it's like upgrading you upgraded your you cannot upgrade your hardware but it says you're grading your software so you're just always trying to soar to be in this you know in in in in a searching mode yeah that's it was I've been so struck in the u.s. especially I would say the last few years though the degree to which people do more and more analysis businesses do politicians do they have more and more data and it makes them more more cautious so it's a different kind of it I mean it's not they're not analyzing with a view towards improving and it's that way or towards taking you know maybe justifying a risk they're analyzing with the view towards persuading themselves that they have to be very know but I'll you know look you know it's this it's this is this is this is one of the paradoxes of the of the abundance of information now we are believe at the time where you know people expect that you you can read everything on the screen but you know you can have many answers you can have all the answers but at the end of the day you know it's about asking the right question it's about you know it's starting the whole process and and realizing at what point I should stop looking at the screener and and and and switch on my brains and just to try trying to make the difference by combining you know my intuition my creativity was a brute force of calculation because everyone look at the same screen everybody has access to the same information now and you know if you if you want to you know to minimize the chance of making a mistake you know it's just then you will find enough reasons you know on the screen not to make the move but I'm arguing that you know not taking risk today it's a much riskier decision because you're not learning you are not moving and this is and you create status quo which is stagnating and that's one of the one of the reasons that you know the political political center whether it's in Europe or America now is just is being destroyed because they just try to stop you know like they try to free they try to freeze the time but it doesn't work this way so that's this you know if you if you are selling status quo and somebody else is selling radical ideas you always lose no matter how bad is this idea is where this Bernie Sanders Donald Trump even Isis the radical views that are just offering dynamic movement you know just and participation of individuals no matter how bad you know and and some ugly the ideas these ideas are they are always you know superior to to to the status quo stagnation concept that is being that is being so available from the so-called mainstream political parties yeah static analysis is really one of the great mistakes I think people make at every walk of life you know it's very hard to make yourself think dynamically Eddy I'm just curious any thinkers or writers or historical figures who had a big influence on you as you kind of went through your own life thinking about this I mean is there is a when you cite an example or a book I mean that you sort of had a particular helped you think about this or is it mostly from your own experience oh I it's could be a long list you know because I read quite a few books yes yeah no but if a student came and said I don't know I want to start really thinking about the kinds of issues you've been talking about I mean a popular biography novel account of a historical situation now as you know as the as the book that is for me comprises is it's it's its history but also the the sign of a great personality and and it's kind of poetry I would recommend for student the history of english-speaking people by was Churchill at four volumes right it's just you know I would say it's he's talking very accurate and it's and he's not very objective but you know it's how democracy was built I mean what it is it's that had a very profound influence to me because you know now I could understand better Reidel sort of the like sort of internal mechanisms of of the anglo-saxon democracy that was you know conceived and buildind in england and then just you know was you know developed further across the atlantic that's probably the book of Churchill's is most neglected interestingly and he himself thought it was very important to write for the reasons I think you're getting at and he began in the 30s I believe in that he yeah yes and he came back to it after the war he had of any other things to do after the war he could have just been a the most famous person in the world and given speeches and prime minister again but he really spent a fair amount of time he had research assistants of course and all that but on that pathetic for the reason exactly that you say but it's funny if you read personality they don't know yes yes this is that's the reading my bulging readers a young man or 25 years ago so as is 20 yes the early night late 80s or 90s so I and it's just it I read many times over and over because it's just it's a great language you know and right and also just yeah it's the end you you hear the voice and and you understand so the the personalities the people just you know play the role and this is its you know okay I read many other books and this is you know it's just that but this one you know stands alone as you know as again something that came from individual who was not just you know you know s Torian a researcher you know a writer I mean he was one of this great individuals you know he was also player at this stage Gary thank you for that recommendation thank you for the conversation and thank you for joining us on conversations

Channel: Conversations with Bill Kristol

Views: 27,399

Rating: 4.3884296 out of 5

Keywords: Garry Kasparov, Donald Trump, Bernie Sanders, Hillary Clinton, American Politics, William Kristol, Conversations with Bill Kristol, Barack Obama

Id: qoQPV5O-dSQ

Length: 59min 55sec (3595 seconds)

Published: Sat Jun 18 2016