Full-Time Linux Users React to the Linus Daily Driver Challenge Video

[Music] hey tom how's it going it is going great on my linux computer we're recording this on that's awesome you know we've been summoned yes absolutely we have had a bunch of people like like a huge number of people asked us to do a um reaction video to linus's daily driver challenge with linux well actually one or two possibly three people in my forums asked us to do it but that you know one was enough for me to honestly you know it's excited we're small so this is exciting one person has a good idea two or three people but yeah let's go ahead and do it so i mean i was kind of thinking about doing this i wasn't sure if i was but i guess that was what pushed me over the edge and made me decide that maybe we should get together and share some thoughts about that video yeah now this comes from perspective that both me and jay have that we have been daily driving linux we are recording this on linux and linus he's got some good points he made on there and i can't tell if he's trolling the linux community because well that gets engagement um but he is correct at least that there are some challenges on there but they're easier to solve than he made it out to be that's part of it too he almost recklessly which but you know maybe linus drop tips is not just a joke he sometimes can be a little reckless with things because it's more attention getting and things like that he's a smart guy he knows what he's doing and uh but we we want to take a different perspective on what it actually takes because me and jay both work in the it industry i own an it business i also run a youtube channel and i do all this on linux my i actually manage not other linux systems as much as windows computers is what i do manage so it's not like i'm you know walled off in my own little private garden of linux blissfulness where i don't have to look at windows all day we actually do a lot of windows administration and do a lot of interaction with tools and yes there are some games you can play on linux and jake's going to speak a little bit more to that because well he's got a lot more experience at it than me yeah i'm a big fan of gaming i was supposed to have try to started my gaming channel my secondary channel by now but i still haven't gotten around to that yet but yeah absolutely i'll be talking about that and i think um i should get a few disclaimers out of the way first of all um we're taking the high road here this is not a let's attack linus video let's shame him make him look like an idiot it's none of that we are not going to take that road at all we're going to just be as unbiased as we can as understanding as we can because we were beginners as well and our goal is to educate not to shame so that's going to be the foundation for our opinion we don't want to take the low road and you know just insult exactly we're not going to do that so yeah and that's there's actually something we can really point out here and this is a problem that is within the linux community is pointing at the hahas and just going hey look uh those windows people aren't smart those people doing this there's a lot of that that goes on there's this kind of elitist that comes over to the linux community i've always been very against that because i've been really big and as jay has too i mean jay didn't write a book to you know make fun of windows users he wrote a book to bring more people into the linux community i do a lot of educational content around technology a lot of open source i'm an open source advocate but not someone who runs around saying you shouldn't run windows and people you know even ask what about your clients i'm like well a lot of them windows is the best solution for what they need to do and we help maintain and manage that so it's just a matter of perspectives and where what we want to bring in the table as jason is the educational aspect of it yep absolutely and the other thing is i'm going to or we're going to assume the best of intentions even if he was trolling us we don't know we can't prove it one way or the other we're just going to assume the best of intentions um as far as anyone is concerned just to use that as our foundation as well and then we can probably get into our thoughts yeah and i will say he did click use at your own risk so he said yes that's where that's yeah i mean it's good i mean to be fair we're taking the high road there are some things we shouldn't have done but there are some points that were valid so we're just going to call them as valid or not as we feel they are absolutely so i'll start with one so he the first thing i noticed was that linus and i believe it was luke the other individual that was working with him on the video they were installing linux on their personal rigs now i have a little bit of a fault with that now that can go very well it could also not go very well now to be fair if he was to install mac os on his pc that could have also went wrong he could have installed bsd that might have worked or not so when you're using a you know computer you already have that was purchased for the purpose that you're using it for today it might work with linux it might not i think a common misconception in the linux industry is that linux works on everything linux works on a lot of things but no operating system works on everything there's a thing called compatibility you know mac os software works on mac os windows software works on windows and vice versa so um i'm going to assume that they re at least i should say i want to assume that they researched compatibility it didn't sound like they did that's what i recommend everyone does before they install linux is just look at the hardware and do some googling for whether or not the hardware is compatible with the operating system that they want to install which i didn't see any note that they've done that in the video that i remember right they just wanted to let's just load linux on there go right at it and like jay said when i'm doing my research for the cards and the capture cards i have in here for my youtube studio this was something i researched like right now this is recording i do have a windows machine so someone watched on my videos for certain parts of the capture because i know there's not a linux option for them but for my machine that i'm on right now for example the capture card i made sure it was compatible with linux for the sound and audio if you're using the onboard audio you're pretty good but they had the go xlr system matter of fact coaxial our system won't even work in mac it is specifically and only designed to work with that they also mentioned like the elgato lights they have like a windows tool i've not used the elgato light system but that's also because my mirror looking at it going huh it doesn't look like i can use it linux so i didn't purchase any of the elgato light system that has like a windows tool that you can use to control it so you kind of start with you can't just slap linux on especially when you talk about more unique or higher end hardware when you're setting up a gaming or streaming setup you start with i'm going to build a linux gaming workstation and i've you know engaged both talked about standard channels and you start with what am i going to buy to make this work and you'll start researching the parts that way it's just like you decide what games you want to buy do i need a really fast graphics card because i enjoy these games or am i just someone who plays web games and i probably don't need to get the fast graphics card yeah this is a thing that kind of um just confuses me because i use this example a lot it might be a strange one but it works in my mind where you know growing up i had a sega later i had a super nintendo but i understood that when i bought a into a platform i'm buying into the apps or games for that platform whether i'm a sonic fan mario fan whatever i wasn't i was never trying to put a sega genesis cartridge into a super nintendo to see if it can work i knew better but nowadays there's this mentality that linux is supposed to run everything i'm not really sure where that came from because that's never been how software works but another thing i have issue with is um or i should say when it comes to blame i'm not going to blame linus in my opinion for the fact that he didn't research the hardware because you can argue that a person should have done that especially if they have a youtube channel however i'm i'm thinking i'm going to lean towards blaming the linux community for that believe it or not because um i i do believe the linux community has created the mentality that linux runs on everything it's never been true because no operating system like we mentioned is compatible with everything but i remember back when windows xp was uh decommissioned end of life uh windows xp had a really long life because it was extended and um you know windows vista kind of made that extended too so if you put it into perspective when windows xp came out it was not uncommon to find computers for f for sale with 64 megabytes of ram and then when windows xp was done i mean you could i mean what was it like 512 megabytes or a gig of ram was standard at that point so that's a huge difference now at the time when windows xp went away canonical put out this um campaign for you should install ubuntu on your windows xp pc to keep it going and i just had a face palm i'm like really like i mean you you're talking about computers that might have as low as 64 megabytes of ram all the way up to a couple of gigs that's a huge variance you really don't know if ubuntu is going to work so why would you make the claim that it works on everything and then other people in the linux community will often say linux works on everything it works on a lot of things but um not everything i think that might be why linus just went and installed it because he's you know reading about it he's going to see comments from people in the community saying that you know linux works on everything um so at the very least that's a shared blame in my opinion but i do have to kind of lean towards the linux community because i don't think anyone should be making that claim yeah linux community and there's definitely a long history of articles of breathe new life into that old computer by putting linux on there and i've never really liked that because it never provided people a good linux experience taking some of the really old hardware you still have that same limitation many things right now are very browser driven so it has become just a worse idea to do it here in 2021 than it was several years ago because the browser well it relies on a processor to render all the screens so if i take a 10 year old computer that was chugging away slow running you know an old version of windows it doesn't magically get faster it still has to render that for example the streaming we're using we use a tool called stream yard it actually does use quite a bit of processor when we slide some graphics around here and if my computer was not a newer more modern fast system it would not do that fast it's not a linux or windows problem it is a limitation of the browser i'm running combined with the processor so the task that you want to complete i mean yeah sure if i just wanted to run some of the more basic apps that were of the era 10 years ago that will run reasonably well on a 10 year old pc but most people aren't expecting to do that they want to get online they want to use different social media and you can take a more advanced social media website and we'll throw facebook out there love them or hate them they do have a lot of elements on the screen that have to render and they will not render fast on the 10 year old computer facebook goes rather slow on it um these are just some of the facts of it and this is all perpetuated this will combination of run on anything or use an old hardware and i don't think this provides a really good user experience on there especially when that's people's first time with linux is oh i'm retiring these old computers and let's go ahead and linux on them and then i'll learn linux and then they just don't have a great experience with it right totally another thing that he mentioned was that the choice of distributions is polarizing or i think he said paralyzing paralyzing paralyzing embarrassingly i have never actually made an earnest attempt to daily drive linux and one of the reasons for that is the utterly paralyzing number of choices you have to make before you even get started and i have to agree because the the fact is like when i was first starting with linux i think it might have been 2002 i'm pretty sure so quite some time ago i was just getting started in it and learning things i was um you know we had an nt4 workstation in the office at that time and a um i.t person came in because i wasn't one yet i was you know in college and i asked him um for his opinion about linux and what i expected him to say was what the heck is that but what he actually said was linux is great i really like working with it like oh cool so maybe i'm going to check this out and then i looked at how many distributions there were and it got very overwhelming and i said okay i'm not trying linux because i don't have time for that i don't want to go down that rabbit hole there's too many distributions no thank you moving on so later on at that same college there's a linux class that was offered that is the thing that got me into linux but i almost like you know said no to my entire career at that point by um uh you know with all the distros that were out there it is overwhelming that is absolutely true so i could totally understand where linus is coming from there because um i like having a lot of distributions now because there's a choice and each one caters to a specific audience but when you're just starting out that's that's so that's overwhelming for sure it's overwhelming and this is where there's the problems in the linux community so linus did say it is paralyzing but polarizing is another way to describe the linux community when you ask about distributions it is treated like a religion their love of by the way i use arch and things like that and it's creates this weird if you're from an outside perspective are these people serious are they joking are they really this passionate about their desktop environments are they this passionate about the distribution you use um from the comments i don't know but i sometimes if i was an outsider not knowing a lot of people are joking about it i'd probably say and okay maybe i have met a few of them that are overly zealous about why you should use it combine that with a lot of you know seo title stuffing of best linux distribution of march of 2020 and then again of august of 2021 then again of november of 2021 it is great recyclable content to get clicks to always have what the best linux distribution is and i from a new if i didn't know anything about linux that would be the first thing i i search i recommend right now a lot and i believe jay does quite a bit too uh people get surprised when i'm a linux advocate open source advocate and then don't distrohop and try a new distro every week i mostly for my own sanity and stability i've really settled on pop os a few years ago i think they do a great job which coincidentally is the one minus shows um mistakes happened that was really unusual where it did uninstall his desktop on there that was not something i've experienced installing steam and i've definitely done plenty of times and so it's just installed steam but i kind of settled on one because well i recommend it to people who want to get started it's something i've set off with family who goes you know i think i want to try it i'm like don't google a bunch of stuff let me just load pop os for you they've done a nice job with the store on the pop os store being able to get a lot of common applications they put a lot of polish on it to make it generally easy to use for new users the way the searching works on there and it's relatively intuitive it doesn't take too much time to get used to the environment that they set up for you yep yeah totally agree and yeah as you said i use pop os as well that's what i settled on i mean i do try a bunch of distributions on my other machines because i always want to i love to review them i don't distro hop i just use them long enough to get a good feel for my opinion on them but um i used to disto hop all the time and papa s it stopped me like i couldn't believe it like i couldn't stay on the same district for more than two weeks i'm not even kidding you but um pop os i would you know install it i would try something else go back to it try something else go back to it michael can't keep coming back to this thing so i may as well just stick to using it and i do like it yeah and it's especially if you're a new user it's better to tell someone like that and instead of them getting involved in all these debates about which desktop environment should i use there's merits for both but stability wise that's one of the first things that you don't want to have experience where there's a really unstable or ever-changing ui there is a consistency that papa west has really brought to the table that i really like and it's based on ubuntu which means if you google something in pop os you can also find the answers in ubuntu and a bunch is not a bad distribution either for people to use right it's i think popos just puts that little bit of extra polish on that on them to make it a little bit more user friendly the calendar integration the google integrations if you're using things like that tie in really well with it it gives me an overall good experience my little calendar appointments showing up on the top and being able to see that that's a nicety in there those little integrations and you get those with ubuntu as well but those make for a better user experience to go oh i feel at home here and i can really use this and not to get caught up in those you know like i said religious style debates where people are just really passionate about which linux distribution you should use and you should start with and you know really forcing your opinion and when they give you a more complicated one of how you should build it all from source and let's do linux from scratch because that's the best that doesn't help the community it doesn't bring more people in it doesn't it doesn't give an ease of use experience uh to people who are you know looking to experiment on i mean granted more of the techy people are but my dad is always like linux for a weird reason my dad is completely a non-tech person he just says i don't really have to worry about people sending me a virus and all i really care about is checking the weather and my email that is my dad's two things he does that's it that's all he uses the computer for and sometimes youtube and to piggyback off of what you just said because my experience you know i've always kind of fixated on um you know user interaction with operating systems because it's just interesting to me to see how people approach an operating system that they've never used and you know what they do to try to get acclimated to that and what i've noticed is that um the claim that linux is hard is untrue in my opinion now it's hard for many people yes but is it inherently hard no because whatever operating system you start with the first one you've taken to and learned then that's going to be what you compare everything against so if you're a windows user as a lot of people are the majority are they start with that then they're going to compare mac os and linux to windows there's just no way to escape that now i've known people that have um started with mac os and find windows hard i have um a friend that started with linux believe it or not and she gets angry when she uses windows because she's not a patient person to be honest but that's another story but the fact is like she knows linux she's not a computer person at all she just knows how to use what she had as the first thing she started with it probably was ubuntu i don't remember but when she's in front of a windows computer she gets irate everyone around me just says oh windows is the easiest thing well not really because nobody was born knowing how to use windows nobody was born knowing how to use mac os you have to learn the operating system that you're using and when i used mac os for the first time i was frustrated it i eventually learned it and i know how to use it but i was expecting to be frustrated i knew before i my fingers even touched the keyboard the first time i'm going to be frustrated it's new and i was right so but i learned it you know i just i was expecting it i just learned it and it's fine but um no operating system is such that you'll know how to use it straight out um that that just doesn't exist so i just want to get that out there as a kind of like a foundation because that seems to be a common misconception so if someone um like your father you know is using what linux all the time regardless of the reason that's what he knows and that's what yeah he hasn't touched uh when because it's not needed he's just he likes he doesn't have a chromebook i finally got him because it just opens up a browser and that's all he cares about so he's like look a browser on a keyboard and he's happy he doesn't really use tech much at all he barely he's computer like once a couple weeks but it's also once you become familiar with an environment um and you're kind of used to where things are that's a big piece of it so wherever you start and you write very much so about the mac i'm very lost on a mac because i just never use one it's not part of what i ever interact with on a daily so i've had to really struggle to find things when someone presents me with a mac someone wanted some files copied and asked me about it and i was like ah where are they at i don't understand the file system very well it makes me muddle through it uh you know to use the finder tool to figure out what i was needed and how to copy something just to a usb and things like that i finally realized i can open up a terminal and make this happen immediately at least that part was familiar to me um i do use windows a lot but it feels clunky to me from a comparison because i do kind of have a foot in both uh but that's once again it's the environment i've become very familiar with once you're familiar with all the shortcuts and all the ways you do things and you become very proficient like managing the ui with a keyboard that is hard muscle memory to unlearn if you go to a different operating system that doesn't have the same keyboard shortcuts i.e windows or mac so there is a lot of that that goes on when it comes to kind of getting that on there so line is coming from a long time using windows and not being a linux guy other than maybe something that ran in a server room it's obviously a dramatic change for him he's it's like a wall it's like hold on everything's not in the same place right and he mentioned um that there's one way to do things in windows which um i think i needed more context on that because even if you were like downloading a video editor on windows there's gonna be at least minimum three that are good probably more that you have to choose between so even windows users don't have one way to do things they have multiple apps for each purpose so i'm going to have to assume that he's referring to the windows user interface itself and not individual apps and you know with linux you have desktop environments and that's great you have to pick one that could be overwhelming but i can understand wanting something chosen for you so that way you don't have to get lost in the decision but the problem i have with that though is let's just say you're a windows user today you're using windows 10 you love the interface you think it's the greatest thing ever and it gets the job done you have no complaints about it now what's going to happen when you move over to windows 11 someday either you're going to love it you're going to oh this is this is really cool i like it this is great or i hate this user interface and what the heck do they do to the windows user interface everybody has their own opinion now if you like windows 11 when you move to that you're fine if you hate it you have no choice you can't change the user interface so having one user interface works well so long as microsoft is developing it in the direction that you want it to go in or that resonates with you personally but as soon as you as soon as they kind of steer off in this other direction are you going to like windows 12 who knows right but at least with linux if a desktop environment goes in a direction that you don't like you can switch to something else without switching your entire operating system and even mac os doesn't give you that ability so i think depending on how you look at that um it's a blessing or a curse you know i think this is where there's a different perspective where me and jay enjoy the fact that there's a lot of choices for desktop environment and things like that but linus started out with a different goal and his goal was to play a game and if your goal is to get to the game everything else is just something you have to do until you get to the game you know i look at my son kind of that way who does you know have a windows computer he does play around with the linux computer as well but he's not my dad is not really following my footsteps really loving and taking after attack he's after a goal he wants to get his game up and running and play with his friends and he would look at anything else outside of that such as running linux create challenges that he doesn't want to get there so from a you know i'm going to choose a system is kind of challenging to say all right my goal is to play a game oh you don't even care about what desktop environment your answer would be more like well whatever one works whatever one gets me i just want to play this game what's the shortest path between me and getting the game up and running so i can play it and that's where linux can be a big challenge because first compatibility with those games especially when they did the part two where yeah they tried to stream and get obs set up and everything else they realized all the little bumps in the road and that comes back to what we said in the very beginning of they just didn't choose the hardware from the get-go to be the most linux friendly they were just loading it with what they had as part of their linux daily driver challenge and they're gambling that's what they're doing they're literally gambling it could have went extremely well all their hardware supported yeah for example if they had an amd system like they wouldn't have even had to worry about drivers at all but um you know you're just rolling the dice at that point you don't know it may work it may not and that's kind of like um even people that build hackintosh's know that they have to look into hardware compatibility and to work everyone knows that so it's just hard to understand why that wasn't the direction that they went in right they tried to go just too broad i think with it and i don't know that it left the best impression on the linux community it gets a lot of people excited it gets a lot of views because hey look what lioness did but if you start from a really comprehensive i want to actually do this you would plan it out differently it's just like building a computer you wouldn't find you wouldn't go grab an amd processor an intel motherboard that's not how you build a computer you would start with all right i need to run linux what's some good recommendations for linux hardware with some good recommendations for sound card i want to capture it's not hard to find capture cards to support linux you know the avermedia ones that i have support linux great no problem so you start out with that type of context and build around it that makes your choices easier and the build would have went a lot better it's realistic to how anyone does it i mean linus you know years ago that's what a lot of it was was doing build guides for gaming pcs and things like that he had a lot of still has i should say a lot of content around that along with a lot of other people and youtube is where you would go you'd research what i'm going to run linux on this let's get all the most compatible hardware let's dive into that topic absolutely yep 100 in agreement now i think we should get into the elephant in the room the uh one thing that everyone is talking about from this video um you know everyone is shaming linus for his uh steam debacle yes this is stupid apparently this is the solution and i have to type yes do as i say in order to install it and maybe it will install and launch now what is the point of having a oh i don't agree with shaming him on this at all um now there's some shared responsibility here to be fair he said yes [Music] yeah but okay so to kind of take it from the top so what i saw in the video was that at one point he's installing steam and then it um is saying that it's going to uninstall some packages that seem pretty critical and he was he immediately understood that it was the desktop environment or he he said gui so he immediately understood the context which was interesting to me and that's good now um why did that happen so first of all we don't know for sure he might have done something else off camera because the truth of the matter is as you understand um not everything you record makes it into the video so there could have been a whole scene where he's installing something else and that got cut for time we don't know what's most likely the case is that there was a bug in the packaging where it you know the dependencies were messed up we don't know if that's an ubuntu issue or a pop os issue i i plan on looking more into that my understanding is that it's been fixed anyway so it really doesn't matter but um since papua s is built on ubuntu then that means the problem could have been ubuntu has an upstream bug papa west has a bug i don't know so i want to blame one of those two i don't know which but the fact of the matter is if it let's just say let's just say that it is a distribution problem it is a bug on their side that wouldn't be linus's fault but um it's really egregious in my opinion for any distribution to have a problem like that because we have continuous integration and development all these different tools development standards that pretty much the majority understand you test these packages on test systems you destroy your test systems you build them back up test the packages again so anytime a package makes it out the door with a dependency cycle or a broken dependency i feel like there's just no excuse for that so if ubuntu had that issue or if papa west had that issue then if the problem is on their side then they didn't check something they could have been on linus decide if he messed something else up i don't know because there's going to be cutting room floor content that we didn't get to see here but um if it's the distro i have to blame the distro for that part but i blame linus for saying yes because it was very clear very clear very clear that if you're going to continue something bad's going to happen you have to type i understand i don't feel like a windows linux or mac os user you know any of the three would have continued in that case it's not a linux problem you see an error okay google start researching that type of error message on there and i'll admit you know years ago dependency hell was a thing in linux distributions it was you know 20 years ago when i started when i was building mail servers and you know apache servers there was always challenges in getting all the dependencies met and getting it set up and then apt came along and solved a lot of that and that's what actually got me over more to the debian world like i said almost 20 years ago and over the years there's always been road bumps but in the big picture where we are here in 2021 i don't really run into dependency problems even all the way into video editing with the flat pack system which we've talked about before they've solved a lot of those interdependencies you have so it's loading steam and then it asking to uninstall the desktop environment just seem really off you know unusual not not something i would really say i've ever even encountered myself and i've set steam up on quite a few just as you i think you have an auto installing as you set up new systems that auto this part of your install groups are going load this package load steam i don't think you've ever been prompted to have your desktop environment and as you stated linus himself understood it was the desktop environment it said it was removing a lot of that and he did find it kind of odd and it immediately didn't reboot now the off camera i don't know if it's something that would have got dropped or just something that didn't get recorded and because he himself is not and he went at it as a i'm not gonna ask for help and he actually in the very beginning video he said hey i could call out for a couple people he i think he threw in a little picture of uh wendell and i forget the other gentleman's name that works with them that's their internal linux guy but he wanted to do it all himself so not necessarily that they didn't add it in but did they record something that linus was just banging away trying to figure out how to get something installed before he switched it because he also wasn't installing it to the pop shop he but i believe he went to the command line for that too am i correct no actually he did install it through the pop shop okay um but he went to the command line after because after the pop shop gave him that error he went to the terminal now i find that strange but we have to blame the linux community again unfortunately i'm trying to be unbiased here but um there is this um superstition or whatever that you have to use a command line um people will brag it up it's the best way to do things i like it a lot but you don't have to use it it's just one of those things you can use if you want to but it's just like powershell on windows you don't have to use powershell to use windows but if you learn powershell you can do more with windows you can customize windows better faster write scripts same on linux it's no longer different between the two anymore so um to gravitate right to the terminal um i don't understand why he would do that now one thing to keep in mind is as you you know definitely understand when you set some time out for a video that you have sponsors attached to it's on the anxiety is real if you can't get that video done you have to go to your sponsors you have to say look we have to choose a different video to sponsor because i this one just didn't work out so he's running against the clock here and he's also human believe it or not so it's very possible that he was just in a major pinch and when someone's in a pinch to be fair they're not always going to make the best decisions and when you're making videos you're pretty much in a pinch all the time right it's they've run a really tight production schedule to get all their content out and they do a great job of it they you know have it all organized they have a schedule where they go i'm doing this video and one of the goals of this video was not whether or not it's going to turn out is whether or not we're going to make the video no matter how it turns out we're making this video so it's like not any delays here we're gonna go through and just show you the problems which i think is good though it also brings this discussion from people like us who are more linux savvy experts and work in that world but it also introduces i mean he's got what like 13 or 14 million subscribers it brings more people at least hopefully not left a bad taste in her mouth with it but brings at least some interest in diving a little bit into more linux systems windows 11 is you know well watch wendell's videos on windows 11. he's been a really good breakdown with his uh the windows 11 taskbar and some of his discussion on it it's microsoft's not exactly doing things for anything other than the sake of change and because of that there's more people that are asking the question and that was one of the you know pretenses of that video it was like what if we just ditched the whole idea of windows 11 and went to linux and i don't think the idea can be completely thrown out like their video did and you know maybe they'll continue a little bit of series and maybe they'll have some reflection on it as well of things they could have done better or maybe they'll do another series where they do what we're talking about where they jump in let's find the hardware that's gonna be the most compatible let's grab pop os again and or even hey why not system 76 let's just grab a system 76 system with a graphics card and go at it and load games on it and see what the experience is like because well system 76 is dedicated hardware for linux and he's done that actually because athelio was sent to a studio and he reviewed it at one time so he did try popos on a um linux piece of hardware before but he didn't reference that at all which i get it he has a ton of videos it's hard to remember what you did last week let alone last year but another thing he mentioned too was um he literally said this could have been my fault you know and i think a lot of people are omitting that when they um chastise him for this he said i could have done something wrong he's not trying to make himself out to be like super innocent here he had an experience he said i could have been the one that caused this problem so he owned up to that and the only thing i would counter that with is he did continue when it was very very very clear he should not it wasn't like are you sure yes or no it was literally like this is going to do some bad things you really have to type the sentence to continue because i hope you know what you're doing that's essentially what the terminal was saying that's not something anybody windows linux mac whoever whatever you use i think any computer user that is thinking calmly would have uh continued that way i think most of us would have just copied that text from that window pasted it into google and he probably would have found a bug report or something like that the only time someone type says when you have a really good backup plan right then i'm like yeah whatever i can always restore this or there's no data on it and i can just reload it again so it hasn't become a critical and integrated part of things i'm doing yet right right and then later so so it didn't work out with papa wes and he went to uh mangero which i like i like both honestly um it's kind of interesting he had a better experience with manjero i would rate banjero as like the upper beginner like getting close to intermediate or intermediate up to advanced it's not something i would recommend a you know novice use but some do and they're you know really good with it but um it worked for him for the most part and then i found it interesting he went to the command line and tries to use apt i don't understand why he keeps going to the command line and the only thing i could think of is that superstition that you have to use the command line in linux which is totally untrue it's been untrue for many years now but that reputation maybe that's why he did it i'm not really sure why he would go to the command line first before he goes to the software installation app or the software store app i forgot what mangero calls it he did that last which i don't think anyone i've ever seen use linux for the first time has ever went to the command line first in my experience yeah that's yeah it's fuzzy i i mean i always go the command line first and if you were to start watching a lot of videos from other linux people and start reading i think there's probably enough people that would probably tell you to go to the command line first um that's back to the linux community it's probably the more recommended the only the only people who are telling you go right to the pop shop is going to be pop os everyone outside of there is going all right we're going to open up the terminal and have to get install steam uh so i can't split on that one there yeah i mean to be fair a lot of people including myself we learned the terminal first because i started when you had to right i mean that reputation comes from truth at one point you did have to use a terminal regardless of what anyone says nowadays you don't have to but reputation is hard to lose unfortunately and to jump back to what i do for a living here running an it services business and managing lots of windows computers we spend a lot of time with powershell when we are mass updating or mass deploying something we don't run around and log into every computer and click something we use a series of powershell scripts that we're going to push out to those systems because that's still a more effective way to manage computers at scale and from an individual standpoint it's just an efficiency once you've learned it you go well i'm just going to apt-get install steam is less clicks um because i can type fast than it is clicking with a mouse to go through type the word steam find it in a pop shop click install type in your password to elevate the privilege that is still we haven't designed a ui system that's faster than what you can do at the command line so there's a just some solid reasoning for why to do it that way right yeah absolutely unless you're a hunt and peck typer then oh yeah if you're still typing that's a different problem yeah yeah for sure my last thought about the part one video is that um along the way i felt like you know i'm not talking about luke very much here and the reason why is because i kind of felt like um from what i remember everything was pretty okay like he seemed to handle it in a very logical mindset he ran into all the things that a linux novice would run into he had some you know very reasonable expectations and things that he tried he was trying in live mode to get his monitors working for example um so i think overall yeah he had some frustrations but i don't remember anything that was just um outside the norm unless you saw anything no no he seemed he he had a little bit better experience than linus this desktop environment didn't get removed but i think overall he was just i really liked his approach to everything it just seemed to make a lot of sense um so did you have any other thoughts about part one no i got that i think we got that covered so part two i don't know i i'm i'm you know i'm wanting to say i have fewer thoughts about that but every time i say that i'll have more it's just more of an extension within part one that's where they ran in directly to the problem with how do you run a script because i didn't even realize and they did take the time to start googling things like how do i get the go xlr system to work inside of linux and they found a script on github and admittedly i guess that was a fair perspective because i don't think i'm going to type in git clone and download the project they were trying to figure out how to get that script to run download it as a file and then understanding how to actually execute something i think that's a fair system if you've never done it before that you would start at that approach to not doing it um i've been using github and command line for so long it seemed it's like they were doing it the hard way but i'm like well they've never done it before at least you know that i know of so right that was uh i bet that was part of a challenge on there yeah so what it was from my understanding is that they had several peripherals that had a windows app to install like lighting or whatever it was um and that's true i mean a lot of these things have that um on the box i'm sure it didn't say linux compatible so there should be no expectation that those peripherals are are going to work on linux but that's why on github you know you always have that one hero that i'm gonna save the day i'm gonna write a program i'm gonna put it on github that's gonna make that non-linux peripheral work on linux and that's awesome now i think that's great but there should be no expectation that a non-linux piece of hardware is going to work on linux but i do agree with linus on something though though on that regard um there really is a problem with documentation here like i go on github and i download something i know how to do it i've done it like thousands of times i get clone i i you know market executable i run the thing i compile it whatever it is i have to do i've done it so many times i pretty much know what i have to do but every time i look at the instructions i think if i didn't know linux like it tells you to launch this app dot forward slash app name nobody's gonna know how to do that like i do obviously but um if someone wants to play their games and they want their leds to work they may not be the kind of person that understands how to run a linux executable so i absolutely agree with linus on that and he made mention that he was unable to double click an application i thought he said sh and um you know you and i know in a gui you can right click market executable and then that will work um there used to be a message that would come up i don't know why it doesn't do that anymore like in the older days of linux where we'll say it looks like this is actually a program that's meant to be run do you want to open it into a text editor or do you want to run it and you'd have that option which was fine but nowadays you double click on it nothing happens and windows users are used to an exe file you double click on it something happens or an msi or something like that so um i really do think that all desktop environments should have some kind of a thing to catch that and tell the user you're trying to run this as a program it's not executable do you want to run it do you want to open it um at least bring that back so that is actually very confusing for a lot of people yeah it can be a little challenge club it's all those things though you if you google a little bit of how to run scripts and linux and things like that i don't think that's going to be that hard to find either so putting the blinders on to say i'm a noob uh and not spending any time googling because matter of fact i would say if you're a noob you spend a lot more time googling and watching and understanding and coming across different ways to do it you'll do a little bit more research on there you know you don't just switch your operating system and unless you're a tech geek then we just do that because we want to um i think they put a little more effort into that that part of it and found some pretty solid answers on it i do agree with that too and he was trying to run apt in mangero yeah and i can understand the confusion about package managers but nobody on the windows side knows how to run powershell without learning it or reading a tutorial um blog post or something or a video um i mean we could i could be the same thing could happen to me i could try to run apt in powershell right um if i didn't know any better which i do but if i didn't then i could easily have the same experience of another operating system or even worse i could be trying to run apt-get in mac os or something like that um instead of brew and i had to learn that it's brew for that kind of thing on the mac os platform i didn't know that at first so um i feel like that whole problem he had there with the apt command and manjero is a problem anyone could pretty much have on any distro or any operating system in my opinion is just part of the learning process yeah that's yeah at least i'm split on that one there yeah i could definitely understand that too but i completely agreed with linus on the whole nvidia thing uh yeah he was mentioning that um you know it is such a meme now with the whole linus giving the middle finger to nvidia that that just comes up in pretty much every linux forms in existence and i i agreed with everything he said because he said at first he thought it was just linux users were upset that there's no open source driver from nvidia which is true we are kind of upset about that but that's not the only reason why we don't like nvidia and he nailed it he says now i understand that there's reasons other than that because there's no feature parity between the windows driver and the linux driver which is absolutely the case for sure and to make matters worse you could be running an older distribution with an older base and you could be stuck on an older nvidia driver because another thing he doesn't know is that if you have like an lts release that's really old by today's standards then you're stuck with the nvidia driver from that time period and there might not be a lack of feature parody they might actually have the feature that he's looking for but you'd have to be running a newer distribution but that's another story altogether but i do agree with them on the nvidia thing it's not a good situation for anyone yeah and in the kind of not obvious way the menus work in nvidia um the menu manager is not great it does have a very dated look to it compared to you know a modern manager for things so nvidia just doesn't care about linux we'll just say what it is and that's something that it's online is problem that's just way nvidia's treating us here right right yeah we we can all complain about that for sure um there's a couple issues they had i i couldn't really um i don't really have much of an opinion on because it doesn't make sense like their capture card didn't work at first but they restarted and it did like i've never had that happen to where i open obs and then it's not able to view the screen i've literally never had that problem the only thing i could think of is if they installed the nvidia driver and didn't reboot yet before trying obs um they're still using the non-proprietary driver that could have been the case maybe the restart made them use the proper driver but i'm only speculating here i have no idea i've never seen it personally but that's the only reason i could think about the top my head where that could happen yeah that was kind of an odd one and you know the challenges they had with obs the in i know there's an ongoing current controversy about it but the streamlabs obs which i use for some of my other capture stuff because it works with my stream deck and things like that is a better product than what they were used to when you just get the generic obs for windows it's the same reason you have a windows computer for ingesting some of the media and this is where you just have to admit that's just not something that works as well where they've got it figured out you know what i mean you're not able to just build a great capture computer with all the switching and the modes and all the features you want uh in linux it's just not there it's kind of a software there's not enough drive or demand to get companies to really integrate into it i know that you like you found a python script that helped with the uh switchbox the um what is that the elemental box i think stream deck yeah but it still isn't as good as it runs in windows and that's because that's natively what it was designed for so if you're trying to get some of those type of things to really work well yeah you're just going to have a not good time trying to force something that was windows designed first with not really any interest other than third parties writing software for it uh so yeah same thing kind of goes with obs it's it's not going to provide the best experience inside of linux right totally now another thing i thought was interesting was when he asked for help i think it was from the developer of the github project about how to download the script and run it and then he saved it as a web page because that's what the person told him to do this is a case of blind leading the blind which is weird because i think a developer should have known this but um i was it was interesting to me that he didn't know about raw mode and github that's what i do like if i'm gonna script i click raw which takes the web page out of the equation and shows only the text if it's an sh file it's literally going to show that i can right click i can save the entire web page as and it'll default to the proper extension of dot sh so i just hit the raw button save it and that's the way i've always done it um it's interesting that linus wouldn't have run into that because that's not linux specific even if you want to download it on windows you would do the same thing yeah so you want to get off github you just go to the raw so yeah i don't understand why he wouldn't have known that maybe he was just under a lot of pressure or something i'll give him credit but um i thought that was pretty interesting especially the developer not telling him to hit the raw button now that was even even stranger to me yeah really you can write the script you didn't tell them to hit the raw that was that was definitely an odd little odd little uh twist in there absolutely so um a couple of smaller things i wanted to mention um the whole elgato key light thing i use that actually um that's what i have you know lighting me up right now actually literally is the key light and i never really tried to get it working in linux because it's wi-fi controllable so i mean i never got it trying to i never actually had a reason to try to make it work in linux because of that so i just use like either the app or you know home assistant or something like that i never really felt inclined to make the key light work on a linux machine because why do that if you don't have to if there's a dedicated uh app or platform for it just use that you don't have to use your operating system for all the things unless you um you know have a reason to do so but that's just a personal opinion right and you can use home assistant you can use like you said third parties there's a there's a phone app for it too isn't there yeah yeah so i mean most people have an android or a ios phone or something so calling it on your computer why why would you do that like i know you can do it but every piece of software you're adding to your computer is you just your attack surface gets larger yeah your phone is already a cesspool of internet of things and all this other crap just put it all on your phone or something because uh who trusts their phone anyway because you don't even know half the time what your apps are doing on a smartphone right and we'll we'll just say that uh we're not even getting into the security aspects because once you start going into the realm of what they were doing i don't think uh i mean i'm gonna downloading random scripts that you don't understand off of github or even clearly understand how to do them that's its own danger so none of this had anything to do with security we'll clear that up there was no there's nobody thinking about threat surface there right right totally um i think that in some ways this video does a disservice to the community because he legitimately had a hard time he had some legitimate points and some things that i felt he might have done a better job if he was just okay let's think this through let's think this through logically or whatever he didn't do i don't know um so it's kind of like a mix of valid points and some things that weren't so valid and some things that happened to beginners just you know the natural course of learning something but um there's just a mix of um shared responsibility and blame here in my opinion on all sides it's not a linus is bad kind of thing it's um that's how he chose to work through the problem and that's the experience that he had for whatever it is what it is is what it is right so did you have any other thoughts about the video in general no i like i said i hope it doesn't turn people off to the thought that you can do this there's a lot of games that natively work in linux so let's say your experience of you loaded papa s where you went and got something from system 76 or uh what's the other one is the tuxedo computers yeah there's a few companies out there that so you don't have to do the thinking you can just buy hardware that works or you can spend a little bit of time googling and find you know a compatible system i've always had good luck with a lot of the lenovo thinkpad series check which ones but ubuntu keeps compatibility lists as well and they're great systems for you know they run linux out of the box and they'll let you know if actually the ubuntu compatibility list will tell you things like everything works but the touchpad but you have to load a third-party driver for that or something you know sometimes there may or may not be a gotcha but for the most part i've actually got great luck of out of the box working great i hope it doesn't turn people off though because well it's a great experience using linux i don't have the challenges that windows comes with that's one of the reasons i switched years ago when it was very difficult to run linux here in 2021 for my use cases it's very easy the system i built it's just a custom built computer i've talked about it before my channel and there's nothing that's linux incompatible so from my daily usage i have even a really cool super wide monitor on one side another 1080 here so i got the whole multiple monitor multiple desktop all the things i need for productivity and i don't have any of the shortcomings it just works i do all my video editing on this i run my business on this i manage lots of things on here such as other windows computers i remote into them i can do the things that i functionally need to do and it can be done if you start with the right hardware make the right choices and gaming if you have a game and the game you like and will throw doom out there doom has got native linux support and with proton and some of these other projects i'm not the biggest camera but it's nice to see that a lot of these projects really do work and can bring a lot of compatibility and you can then start looking at an alternative under so long as the game you want works on there awesome it can be a really good experience yeah and i think it's important to keep in mind that there's pros and cons for every operating system and platform i'm not going to pretend that linux is perfect if there's a fault i'm going to call them out on it because it's about being honest and i don't want to be a fanboy to the point where linux does nothing wrong um there's some things i wish was better i mean the nvidia thing is another example of that because when those users legitimately have a better experience with the nvidia driver now on the other side of things like if i am using a windows machine i have to install my printer manually which doesn't seem like a big deal but my network printer a brother network printer if i install linux there's nothing i do i go to printers and it's just there it automatically found it it installed it so some things are actually easier on linux it's a you know you pick and choose there's some pros and cons well printers are never easy some printers are easy but yes that work fine in linux hp seems the older hps we have because we have some commercial printers they seem to work great in linux the number ones are a little bit of a mixed bag but they're they're back on windows because you know if you work in it you'll know printer support is printer support and doing it on windows there's enough tickets to tell me it's not as straightforward as it should be no there's some stinkers out there for sure and i don't mean for anybody to just buy a random printer on my regards you know it's supposed to work but it just so happens that the hp printers that i've had in my current printer lent my laserjet printer it's a wi-fi printer it just picked it up it installed it nothing to do at all when i was testing out windows 11 recently i had to install it manually and then also 21 drivers i think it was a crazy number of drivers i had to install manually on windows 11 so it's kind of interesting to have individuals complain about the nvidia driver in on a linux distribution that's one driver with windows users they have to go to like dell's website or their manufacturer's website and download some drivers sometimes use windows update to get them they have to do this dance that i think they're so used to doing that they don't even realize they're doing it but the minute that linux has a um you have to source the nvidia driver it's a thing not really it's not that big of a deal but again pros and cons right linux is not perfect no nothing is it's just the way it is if you want to switch to another platform you have to research it doing a challenge is not the way to do it this isn't the hot sauce challenge where you just try it right you have to research it first absolutely all right so um i think that's about everything then i think we covered it hopefully you you came here you learned a little bit more about linux if you weren't going to try it because you thought linus says it's not good uh hopefully we change your mind on that just think about the use cases and uh enjoy it it's something you can do and i encourage more people to do it you know i'm not a fanboy where i think it just is with the solution all people should use because i know that's not a realistic thing but if you want to use it it can be done you can use it and you can have a great experience using linux absolutely i agree so thank you everyone for watching this was a fun video to record and hope you guys enjoyed it and we'll collaborate again as always really soon the next idea we get will be right here again all right thanks thanks [Music] you

Channel: LearnLinuxTV

Views: 52,701

Keywords: Linux, Distribution, Distro, open-source, gnu/linux, LearnLinuxTV, linux, gaming, proton, luke, linus, compete, challenge, pop!_os, popos, manjaro, mint, distro, brick, lawrence systems, tom lawrence, jay lacroix, linux users, reaction, linus tech tips, linus linux, linus daily driver, linus daily driver challenge, linux gaming, linus tech tips linux, linus tech tips linux challenge, pop os, best linux distro, ltt linux challenge, arch linux, ltt linux, linus tech tips linux challenge video, ubuntu

Id: zjcByU0VKOk

Length: 57min 34sec (3454 seconds)

Published: Sat Nov 27 2021

Reddit Comments

[u/trhawes]

I was pleasantly surprised to see Tom Lawrence co-host this episode. I have watched a lot of his previous videos for setting up TrueNAS and Pfsense for my home lab. I had no idea he was a Pop!_OS user.

[u/AdministrativeMost]

Lot of good point. Especially "Linux is not for everyone" and "Linux doesn't run on everything", it is so true and yet it blew my mind.

What is it that I mind about the Linus's videos is that he is sloppy and obviously frustrated and he takes it on Linux even when it is not just. That really disappointed me big time. Not that he shows that Linux is not perfect, nothing really is.