Ford F550 Chelsea PTO Repairs - Unexpected Complications

howdy folks behind me is a 2010 ford f-550 it has a v10 gas engine and an automatic transmission and now it's gonna rain standby well in light of the sudden onset of inclement weather we are going to eschew the normal snarky introduction and i will move directly into the customer complaint and diagnostic phase of the video sorry i have skipped ahead a bit this is our problem this truck has an automatic transmission and it has a pto or power takeoff unit this little guy right here allows the regular engine under the hood to power a hydraulic pump that runs all the functions of the body attached to the truck the customer complaint was that that hydraulic pump intermittently didn't work it's kind of an interesting unit i've never worked on one that was built quite like this and that's also i think the reason why it failed [Applause] yeah i think our scattered showers have turned into something a little more dramatic anyway this is a chelsea pto this gear right here meshes with a gear on the input shaft of the transmission and any time that the input shaft of the transmission is turning this little guy can send power out to something mounted here attached to this shaft what's different about this pto versus a normal pto is this stuff right here it actually has a multi-disc clutch just like what you would find inside of an automatic transmission or i don't know steering clutches on an oliver oc-46 i guess the idea is that it's quieter so normally on an automatic transmission when you engage the pto it kind of grinds a little bit because usually what it does it just slides a gear over so that it contacts another gear and the input shaft is normally turning so you always get a little clashing when that happens but this is supposed to be more civilized anyway long story short this clutch is burned up it's no good that's your friction there's no friction left there's your steel another friction it's completely smoked and the reason why is because of this seal right here so that's the piston seal it actually gets pressure from the pressure line in the transmission it's the same pressure that would tighten the bands or the clutches inside the transmission they tap into it using a [Applause] using a solenoid valve and it actually squeezes the clutches and turn makes everything work anyway i don't know why this seal failed but that is the the genesis of our problem so so 17 days ago i ordered a new mounting flange gasket two new locating doll pins a full seal kit a set of frictions and a set of steels [Applause] yeah that's not going to work i don't know why it failed that is probably a special tool to collapse the seal but we don't have that so we're going to vary very delicately massage it with a non-sharp pick beautiful so that seal right there allows well it seals around this shaft and lets the fluid go in the middle of the shaft in order to actuate the piston let's try the pilot bearing puller i don't think i've ever actually used it for pulling a pilot bearing might work for this maybe if only there was some kind of device here in the shop we could use to hold on to this piece i don't know what that would be sure would be nice if we had one though all right we'll put it in a vice well what is the problem here you know it'd be nice if i had some kind of a tool that could press this bearing in instead of having to hit it with a hammer what would you call that a pusher maybe that's too bad all right we'll use the press so [Applause] let's see here there we go [Applause] [Applause] [Applause] does seem a little loose to me [Applause] i don't know why it needs that much slop between the discs but i checked the parts book five steals six frictions that's what i took out of the old one or took out of it one took it apart so it's gotta be correct hmm [Applause] seems kind of odd [Applause] but it does work i believe it has a it has an orifice so it bleeds off the pressure all right folks i'd rather not do this twice so i went ahead and pulled it back apart yes i'm aware of the irony in that statement the air that we heard leaking past is normal it's coming from this orifice right here the way this thing's set up the solenoid valve here is normally open and when there's no power it allows the fluid to bypass through this passage right here when you apply 12 volts to the solenoid it closes off this passage and sends all the fluid to the back of this seal which in turn sends it through the hole drilled in the end of this shaft but it always allows a certain amount of fluid to bypass through this orifice that's so that you get lubrication into the pump and the reason that the the air changed tones as we were turning the gears is because sometimes it's blocked by the ball and sometimes it's not in this bearing here anyway long story short we're good to go i'm gonna put it back together and we'll get it installed hey lady howdy folks can you help us pull a truck inside of course if you're done watching videos of heroic dear heroic gentleman removing dead creatures from the bottom of cars it was greatly appreciated it's best not to look in the back of a garbage truck i don't think that part has any garbage in it you're gonna have to turn the key on please do not start it okay because the transmission is open okay have a real bad day okay so you'll turn the key on okay and that will let you turn the steering wheel okay and then when we get ready to go you're going to pull this little lever right here to release the parking brake and if you need to stop either push the regular brake pedal or the parking brake pedal when it should stop okay so make sure i got it i'm turning the key on to the on position i'm hitting the brake and then i'm putting it in neutral you don't have to touch the gear shifter oh okay it's already in neutral okay so that's all i'm doing it appears you're going to have some help hey kiddo i think we should let mom do this one solo buddy you want to come sit next to me yeah it's probably the safest place for him yeah all right lady mission accomplished thank you very much i'm gonna spend sunday afternoon working underneath of a garbage truck while my lovely wife goes shopping we should be ready to install this pto got the gasket the gasket is a gasket but it's also a spacer and it sets the right lash for this gear there's two of these locating sleeves and it's held on by one stud and five bolts one of the bolts is this big long sucker it actually passes right through the internal cavity of the pto which is kind of hokey anyway there's an o-ring underneath the head does not come with the seal kit for whatever reason so i just stuck it in a generic o-ring on that and you have to install that bolt before you set the pto up next to the transmission there's not room to fish that bolt through the hole once it's in place oh come on why of all things to happen the freaking electrical cord gets caught in there all right folks oh man i think we got the pto itself installed it's a tight fit there's really only one bolt this one here you can get a socket on everything else is open-ended wrench only and they do have a torque spec for those bolts but i'd love for somebody from chelsea to tell me how to get a torque wrench on that little sucker there is no way man it's pretty hard to talk land on your back uh what ford modular engine would be complete without a couple of broken off exhaust manifold studs so we'll note that on the invoice and we'll move on [Applause] yeah we're going to change the transmission fluid you can see how how black it is the pto and the transmission of course share the same fluid so all that burned up clutch material is it's going to be in there so we'll go ahead and drop the pan and replace the filter and we should be good yeah i figured it was going to be pretty nasty [Applause] that's better got a new ford filter and the new pan gasket now the pan gasket can be reused if you live somewhere that has a real climate like florida or california or you know anywhere but here [Applause] [Music] we got the warning light on let's see it works cool but it's working but i don't think it's working correctly it's supposed to go up to 900 rpm anytime the pto switch is turned on but it has this accelerator switch here but it doesn't seem to do anything yeah that it makes no difference in the rpms so we need to investigate that all right folks the project has taken an unexpected turn although if you're a long time viewer maybe you expected this somebody's been meddling where they shouldn't have been and they've left me with a nasty rat's nest here the owners of this truck have told me that it's always had electrical problems since they've owned it and that the pto has never worked correctly so what's supposed to happen is when you flip the pto switch on the pcm puts the transmission into a pto mode it raises the line pressure it raises the rpm and it modulates the line pressure so that that clutch gets constant pressure and that has not been working i don't believe that's been working the whole time they've owned it and if i had to guess i would bet that's why the clutch in the pto failed i don't think the seal being blown out was the reason at all if anything i think the seal might have been a symptom of this problem here [Laughter] all right folks things are coming into focus a little more uh i had no idea there was a problem on the control side of the pto when they brought this truck to me my understanding talked to the customer is that the way this is supposed to work is you flip on the pto switch in the cab and then when you push one of the hydraulic levers on the body it waits like two or three seconds and then it revs up the engine and increases the speed of the hydraulics it's supposed to be like a safety thing so that they start slow and then they speed up if you need them to he said that part of it has never worked since they've owned the truck and you can't find anybody that knows how to fix that part of it they don't have any wiring diagrams for the the garbage body so here's the game plan what i think we're gonna do this is from the ford bodybuilder layout book you can get these for free off the ford website they make this for upfitters so that they can hopefully integrate this stuff correctly now my experience with upfitters they're kind of like lawyers 99 of them give the other one percent a bad name and that seems to be what's happened here anyway what we're going to do is we're going to mimic this layout right here so if this is what ford says to do they use one relay and one switch we can't do it exactly like this though we're going to have to it's going to be a little bit different so what i think we're going to do we'll eliminate this switch in the schematic and this truck has the upfitter switch package already installed so there's four rocker switches and they control four relays and the relays all have fused power everything's right there that we need so there's one switch already designated for the pto and one for the high idle so what we're going to do hopefully if you guys can see this we will run this violet with green wire out of the pto switch and relay and we'll run it right here that will provide power to the the pto signal on the ecm and it will also power the relay then we will take this brown wire from the high idle switch and relay and we will run it directly to this wire here through a 1k ohm resistor and into the green wire on the ecm that will tell the computer to raise the rpm to 1400 he told me customer told me that 1400 is their desired rpm for the hydraulics to work normally so yeah we should have everything there that we need to do that somebody's added a bunch of extra relays we can just repurpose those and i think we've already got let's see yeah if i'm looking at this right there's already a 10 amp fused power there that we can tap into for this right here to power the actual solenoid on the pto so we shouldn't have to run any fuses or any wires or anything like that we just need to we've got to unscramble what's been done and change it to work like this all right folks some time has passed but we're making progress i think i figured out how to do everything i want to do so this relay here is just hanging out it doesn't do anything anymore and this relay i've repurposed to control the pto so that one relay there should do everything that we need to do in conjunction with the up fitter relays that are in the relay box behind this panel behind this white heat shrink is a 1k ohm resistor that's going to set our high idle speed so let's see what she does well where's the key typical ford it's got the world's most annoying door dinger [Music] [Music] okay that's working now high idle [Music] so pto looks dry transmission pan looks dry got the wires tied up i think we're done on the bottom side oh boy that right there is the control panel that's supposed to control the pto and the idle speed and all that jazz but without a wiring diagram you know we could spend a month of sundays trying to figure out what all those green wires do i don't even have a really have a layout of the relays to know what the relays are for so i think what we've done is is kosher we're gonna send it on its way hold on folks we found a problem i'll give you a minute to collect yourselves something is preventing the pto from engaging at certain times and i think i found it i believe it's the brake switch so here i tried to turn it on and it didn't work here i tried to turn it on and it didn't work and then here i turned it on and it finally did work and if you page up here you'll see that the brake was on during that time but i was not pushing the brake pedal all right we just caught it the brake pedal is up and the pit is showing brake pedal on and it just changed states right here while we were watching it that's pretty cool see if we can get it to do it again hmm was doing it every time all right folks let me try to explain this in case you aren't following along the problem currently is that something intermittently is preventing the pto from engaging so we have unhacked the wiring under the dash and rehacked it to follow basically follow this layout from the forward bodybuilder book what's supposed to happen is when you flip the pto switch on it sends power through this yellow and green wire to tell the computer that we want to turn the pto on and put the transmission into a pto mode and in that pto mode it raises the line pressure and it raises the engine rpm and then it has a series of checks that it goes through to make sure that everything is cool before it turns the pto on and i think there's eight criteria the engine has to be running the transmission has to be in park the parking brake has to be pressed and then the transmission temperature can't be too high the engine temperature can't be too high and the brake pedal cannot be pressed and if all those things are true then it provides a ground on this wire here this blue and white the pto okay and once it grounds this wire right here that allows the relay to switch on and turn on the pto and at that point you're off to the races now it gets a confirmation signal here on this blue and green blue green this pto engage wire to tell the computer that hey we actually did flip on the relay and engage the pto so continue with your pto mode anyway long story short what i think is happening is the computer believes that the brake pedal has been pressed even though the brake pedal isn't being pressed and it's kind of complicated there's two brake switches well there's actually three so there's one underneath of the dash connected to the brake pedal it looks like this and it actually has two sets of contacts inside so one of them is the brake switch that connects to the computer the other one is the brake light switch so this one actually controls the taillights separate circuits this i believe is fine i can't see any problems with it the contacts look good it moves freely and it also tests out good underneath the truck but there's another brake switch it's a pressure switch and it's connected to the bottom of the master cylinder and that i believe is the problem yeah i can show you the test setup but i don't know if i can show you the problem i think i might have accidentally fixed it in the process of trying to diagnose it now what makes this even more confusing is that the switch on the pedal and the switch the pressure switch on the master cylinder both have separate inputs to the pcm but they share the same data pid in the scan tool at least on the snap-on tool anyway i'm not going to mess around with it we're going to replace that pressure switch on the master cylinder it's pretty cheap 20 bucks and it's not a bad job to replace it i know ford's had a lot of problems with those switches especially with cruise control related issues and i think there might have even been a tsb about that if not for this truck than for other ford models all right folks a new brake pressure switch has been installed let's see if it works here we go so the brake switch is working that's all good now it's probably not going to run the pto when we first started it has to reach a steady idle speed before it'll allow you to switch it on yeah it's still nothing [Music] so [Music] all right folks i think we're good i'm tired of messing with it i'm tired of smelling it let's get it out of here send it down the road and see see what happens all right folks i think that's it for the little garbage truck that could i'm fairly happy with our repairs i think it's going to be just fine i did follow up with my automatic transmission shop the one that i normally work with he told me not to try to flush the transmission he said generally speaking that those flushes actually cause more problems than they solve as far as what happened to the pto here's what i think went down at some point long ago something failed in the control box for the garbage truck body and without a wiring diagram they were not able to fix it that's when they added the relays underneath the dash and they got the pto to work but they didn't get the computer to understand that the pto was being engaged so it didn't know that it was supposed to raise the line pressure and raise the rpm and sort of safeguard the pto because it had no idea that it was being turned on so over a long enough timeline running it that way the clutches were slipping a little bit and it eventually caused the clutches to to burn up to the point that the clutch pack collapsed enough that the piston could actually pop out of the bore and the little lip seal in there could actually it actually popped out and then when they disengage the pto the spring is trying to shove that piston back in the bore and it folds it's folding the lip of the seal back over that's why the lip was all torn up like that i didn't even know this was a problem when they brought it here i just they told me that the pto wasn't working i had no idea that the electrical part of it was all jacked up so i'm glad we went one step further and took care of the electrical issues now here's the crazy part i don't like the bag on other shops but my understanding is that this truck has been to four other shops to try and fix the computer related issues with the pto they took it to two different garbage truck service places a ford dealership and a garbage truck builder who's actually a dealer for new way which is the manufacturer of the garbage truck body and none of them were able to fix the problem anyway i'm tired the mosquitoes are swarming it's going on it's going on 10 30 p.m so thanks guys for watching and i'll see you next time

Channel: Watch Wes Work

Views: 332,525

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Id: J9MdmmfoX2w

Length: 35min 8sec (2108 seconds)

Published: Sat Oct 02 2021