FORD 351W VS 351C

howdy folks back again so today what i want to do is i want to talk to you about ford heads now there's been a lot of confusion over the years uh there's and with good reason i mean ford had a bunch of different engine families i'm certainly not going to talk about all of them but we're going to talk about the popular ones today and i i want to talk about some of the differences so you've heard the term 351 you've also heard 351 windsor 351 cleveland 351 modified um and then of course there's a couple other engine families that didn't have 351s so we need to talk about those so first of all what we have is the the most common 351 you will probably see nowadays is what they call the 351 windsor now the windsor got its name because it was manufactured at the windsor michigan plant and the 351 windsor was basically a small block engine it was a four inch bore with a three and a half inch stroke which is pretty typical of the 350 351 cubic inch motors they um but it was very similar the windsor shared a cylinder head with the 302 the only difference is the the w the windsor 351 had a larger head bolt so the 351 heads had a larger head bolt it was a half inch head bolt hole in the head the thing is you can modify 302 heads and just drill the bolt holes out to half inch and bolt them right onto 351 so the heads are similar this is a 302 engine which is a small block but if you look at the cylinder heads this is the typical configuration of the 302 351 cylinder head and we've got some head sitting here so i wanted to do a comparison on these because you can definitely see that there is a difference so this is your typical windsor cylinder head or 351 windsor head that is the design of it now there were some variations some of them had studs from the factory and so forth uh other ones had bolt down rockers depending on the year the later ones had emission control uh passages drilled into them so i don't want to get into really the best and worst on those because i've got a lot of other videos on it and this video really isn't about getting into uh which specific 351 head windsor head or or you know cleveland head or whatever is the best i just want to show you the differences between the engine families so that is a typical 302 351 289 head the valves are all in a straight line there's no no angling or canting of the valves and if you look at the valves here we got the intake valves out of this one but the valves are in a straight line all the way down and it has a it has an intake manifold with a water passage on the intake side of the head now we move over to this head here and just so there's no confusion ford had an fe family of heads this is an fe head and this head is basically a big block head it really isn't dimensionally any bigger in fact it's probably a little lighter than the 351 head because this engine had a huge intake manifold on it that spanned all the way across in fact the the rocker shaft assembly bolts here and the push rods actually go through the intake manifold here so that is an fe head so this would have been a 352 360 390 428 and they also had the 428 cobra jets that were this design you can see there's a big difference between those two they are not interchangeable it's not the same same head one thing that's typical of ford heads though is uh that that was unique is they all pretty much had 10 head bolts in them they did five head bolts along here and five head bolts along here just on this end of the head and this end the same thing with this one five head bolts five head bolts so that's very typical that the ford heads had big and small block they basically had 10 head bolts although the head bolt sizes did vary so then we move on to this head here and this is the 351 cleveland slash modified family now what you'll notice on the fe heads is the water passages again are on the intake plane and the manifold bolts up and the water goes through the intake same thing with the windsor or 302 289 head when we get to the 351 cleveland it's a little different animal now the the 351 cleveland was similar in size to the 351 windsor as far as a boring stroke goes but it's a different block it's it's still considered a small block but it had this head on it now one thing you'll notice that's that jumps out at you right away with this head is that this head has canted valves the valves are canted which means the vowels are at a different angle now that is a big advantage for performance because instead of having the valves on a single plane here we have this valve angled over this way and this valve here is angled over this way so they're angled toward the center of the bore so if you look at that the the valve guides and seats here they angle the guides and the valves toward the center of the bore which gives me less of a sharp turn radius for the airflow into the head and it it actually forces the air fuel toward the center of the bore and it also allows the exhaust to be pushed out from the center of the bore which is an advantage canted valve heads also if the valve is canted or angled i can put a larger valve in here without shrouding it so they had the capability to use a larger valve in a more compact chamber with better flow which was a big advantage so let's talk about the 351 cleveland because this is actually not a cleveland head although it's very very similar and it's kind of interchangeable i mean you could change them out this head is off of a 351 what they call a modified engine ford wanted a bigger cubic inch engine that they could put in their luxury cars and they also used it in their pickup truck so they wanted a 400 engine well they didn't want to design a whole new engine so what they did is they took the 351 cleveland and they used that as a basis but they they modified it now there are some changes the 351 modified it takes that same design head that we saw on the cleveland but they changed some things on the block one of the things they did is they put a big beefier crankshaft in it so the the main journal diameter of the 351 cleveland is two inch 750 000 something like that what they did with the modified is they took and they enlarged the main drill and made it three inches so it's a three inch diameter main journal so it's a bigger beefier crank they the problem with the 351 modified in the 400 which was similar that the 351 modified was just a 400 that was de-stroked so the 400 was based on the 351 cleveland size or or engine family but they modified the engine they changed the crankshaft size they also changed the bell housing so the bell housing in the back of the engine shares its bolt pattern with the 460 429 so you're going to have to have a big block 464 29 transmission for this engine so and that that's different from the 351 cleveland also they changed the motor mounts the 351 modified which was basically a smog motor the the thing that killed the 351 modified was it was it had different motor mounts it had a different bell housing setup so you had to have a big block bell housing for it the motor mounts didn't match any other ford engine they were unique to the 351m or the 400 which was basically an engine that was just completely choked out with emission control devices in the 70s and the in the in the mid to late 70s and so and also the other thing is the 351 modified the way it is uh different differentiates from the 351 cleveland is it has a taller deck height so it the the the crankshaft height or the block height from the center of the crankshaft to the deck of the block was taller so that made it wider very difficult to get that to fit into a mustang nobody really wanted to swap the 351 modified into a mustang because it had motor mounts that had to be fabricated it had a different deck height so it was a very wide block and it was very difficult to get that fitted to fit into a mustang without notching uh the shock towers and just you know doing all kinds of changes to it and also one of the things that was a problem is getting a set of headers on that thing because it's so wide in the mustang was very difficult to do you'd have to actually have custom made headers for it so it was not a desirable engine to swap into the the pony cars the mustangs or whatever that's why you probably won't see them the 351 windsor and the 351 cleveland which share a similar deck height and are a more compact engine even though the 351 cleveland had the canted valve the wider head on it the block was not as wide and so it was more desirable for swapping into a mustang plus it wasn't choked out with emission controls and so you can get pretty good factory heads and and compression ratios and so forth that ran pretty good the 351 m modified was basically choked out with emissions it was very low compression and it didn't have really a lot of support from the aftermarket and and in other words they didn't make a lot of parts for it to modify it now that's not to say you can't make the thing run the point of this entire video is we're actually going to build a 351 modified that's my next project here in fact it's right there that's this is a 351 modified so let's take a look at this thing so like i said it does have a taller deck height but it shares the bore and stroke with the 351 windsor in the 351 cleveland it's basically a four inch bore with a three and a half inch stroke it has a really long connecting rod in it which is is good for uh a torque motor or a truck motor or rat rod or whatever but it's very similar the the front cover is the same as the 351 cleveland the the water the water port area you can see that it has water ports that go into the head here that are the same as the cleveland head and we will actually probably put a set of cleveland heads on this because one of the problems that we have is that the 351 m heads had a really large chamber and so they're very low compression plus they put this dish piston in here we're going to try to find a flat top piston or a better piston for this and get some closed chamber cleveland heads on this thing and make it really run the other thing is the exhaust is is can be a challenge if you're going into a small car now these are the big uh 351 modified exhaust manifolds and they have um they're just this big bulky poor floating manifold i seriously doubt if we use that and if you look at the heads they got a giant combustion chamber with basically no quench area here which is not really very good it's basically a low compression smog head that was kind of a turd so you really don't want to use that and if you look at the back of this you may recognize the bolt pattern i don't know how well you can see it but that is a 429 460 big block bell housing pattern so it takes the same transmission as a 460 so you could get a good heavy duty c6 or whatever with a 460 bell housing and bolts to the back of this and you got a pretty bulletproof proof transmission the um the motor mounts here are are definitely different this is a three bolt setup there's a bolt here a bolt here and a bolt here which is a unique bolt pattern that no other ford engine really had so and ford did that on purpose because they didn't really want this to be confused with the 351 cleveland 351 cleveland just has two bolt bosses that go straight up much like the 302 we got a 302 here and you can see the the motor mount bolts they go there's one here and one here and the motor mount bolts straight up with two bolts that's very similar to a 351 cleveland motor mount set up here so you can see the contrast it's very different however you can get motor mounts for these um yes and you may have to do a little bit of fabrication if you're putting this into a an earlier ford but it can be done i mean you know if you got a welder and a chop saw and some fabricating skills you can do it so one of the reasons that i want to build this engine is basically because these engines are readily available the 351 cleveland if you try to go out and buy a 351 cleveland you're probably going to have to mortgage your house to to get a good 351 cleveland engine all do they they do run very good and they're more compact and they do fit better in a mustang or a pony car but if you're building a rat rod or something these 351 modified engines because they're not real sought after they're basically a dime a dozen i mean you can pick these motors up i picked this thing up for like 50 bucks so they're they're they're just a a 70 smog motor that nobody really wants and they weren't really considered a performance engine but it is a four inch bore three and a half inch stroke v8 if you put the right heads on it and you get a decent aftermarket intake and you get a good set of headers on it and you get the compression ratio up and get air into it this thing will run just as good as the 351 cleveland the problem is is the parts a lot of the parts are not interchangeable so um that's one of the things that you got to think about with these these heads now there's one more head here i want to take a look at and that is this one on the end here so if you look at the contrast i'll try to back up a little bit here so if you look at the contrast you can see on the left there next to my coffee cup we have the 302 351 windsor and then we have the fe family which is this guy here and that's the 352 390 and then we go to the 351 or 351 m or or the 400 head they're all very similar canted valve head much like this one this is 429 460. now you can see it's a bigger it's a bigger engine this is considered a small block this is what's weird about this okay so the windsor is considered a small block the fe motor is considered a big block the 351 is considered a small block which shares basically the same bore stroke as this motor but it has a different head with canted valves which m much more potential and then we go to the canton valve big block head you can see how much bigger that is this is 429 460 and a lot of these had really big intake ports big valve capability and it is also a canted valve head you can see the valves are angled so they angle the valves toward the bore center kind of like a big block chevy so the 351 cleveland and the 429 460 was a candid valve head and the head design is actually more desirable than the valves that are in line or parallel so this is basically the now this isn't certainly isn't all the engines that ford has made but this is basically the ford engine families that you're going to see out there none of them are really interchangeable with each other now you can the thing is if you have a 351 windsor like this you can bolt this head onto that block and what you got to do though and there's guys out there actually doing this is because if you look at the water the intake manifold is here on the windsor the water goes through the manifold here well if you look on the the cleveland or the modified head there is no water jacket here so if you and and not only that the 351 windsor manifold is not going to fit on this it's it's it's a different deal altogether the the 351 cleveland manifold is similar in width to the windsor manifold with the modified engine which this head will bolt onto it the manifold we like to call this our redheaded stepchild because this manifold because that motor has a taller deck height this manifold is just absolutely unique to the 351 modified engine it's it's got a different width and quite honestly i don't even think they made a four-barrel version of that i think they were all two-barrel now this manifold is stripped down fairly fairly far now but when i first started taking this apart man there's so much emission control crap and lines on this thing it's unbelievable it's basically a piece of crap is what it is so you really don't want to use that manifold for anything other than you know just a heavy-duty boat anchor that's kind of a rundown of these heads obviously the 460 head if you look at is not going to be interchangeable with any of these blocks so the 429 460 was another big block so we got small block big block small block big block uh and and that's basically the ford families this is the 429 460 uh 351 cleveland 351 modified 400 352 360 390 289 302 351 windsor and that's that's really what what you're going to be seeing and dealing with out there now as far as which heads are the best basically when it comes to these factory heads the only really decent heads if you want to build a 351 windsor or 302 the only decent heads you're going to find for that motor is the 1970 1969 or 1970 351 windsor heads which was a c9 oe casting which was 69 or a dooe casting and keep in mind you want the dooe casting that has 351 cast into the head that's the one you're looking for uh the 390 352 390. now there was a bunch of different uh versions of that head they had low riser medium riser high riser and that basically referred to the size of this port this is this is a low riser which is a small low performance the the medium riser was much larger and the high riser you're never going to find a set of those anywhere that was a specific that was a real special nascar deal and they're very rare the 351 modified or or cleveland the best heads like i say that you're going to find from the factory was probably around 1970 so you're looking for casting dates around 1970 although the 428 cobra jet and 390 medium riser heads and so forth were pretty good back in the early to mid 60s they had pretty good performance out of these the the the other three the windsor the cleveland and the 429 460 pretty much 70 71 after 1971 the compression ratios went way down they made much bigger chambers and basically they were smog heads so so hopefully that gives you some insight so i'm going to go ahead and finish taking this this build apart here and i i really i like to do things like this that are a little bit different and unique and like i said if you're looking for a decent motor for a rat rod or something and you're on a budget man i'll tell you you can pick these things up for almost nothing and for a pretty reasonable price you can build one of these and you can make it it's pretty good you can also so if you find a 400 crank that's the thing people talk about stroker engines they have a factory 400 crank for this thing it's basically the same block they just put a longer stroke crank and a different piston and set of rods in it if you can find a 400 rotating assembly or just purchase in our rotating assembly for a 400 you can basically take this block because i mean we're not going to reuse the pistons of course these are dished pistons we want a performance or or a higher compression piston a flat top so if you can find a rotating assembly for a 400 it literally just bolts right into this block and it's just like building a stroker engine so you can stroke this thing out to 400 cubic inches and you don't have to do any block relieving or anything crazy like that it was designed from the factory just to bolt right into this block so that's something we may do i don't know but if you if you actually got a 400 crankshaft rods and pistons and made this 400 cubic inches put some good early 351 cleveland heads on this which i have a few pairs of those laying around here we'll probably use those this motor would be pretty good pretty good the only challenges are going to be you're probably have to fabricate some kind of motor mount deal for it and you're definitely going to have to have a big block 429 460 bell housing transmission or a standard transmission whatever you do but those are pretty easy to find so hopefully this is intriguing you and stay tuned because i'm really not going to walk you through the tear down of this thing i've got tons of videos doing tear down but once i get this thing apart and inspected and machined we'll start seeing what kind of parts we can round up for this turkey and see what we can do with it see if we can make this thing a runner uh and you know hopefully this will help you so you don't want to rule these engines out even though they were a smog crappy type motor you know we're just we're probably just going to trash the heads and the intake i know that the heads in the intake are junk but you know if you if you take some better components and you put it in this you can make a you can make a pretty good motor so if you have any questions about any of these heads of these engine families i know this is a huge subject there's there's a lot of the thing about ford uh god they changed so many things i mean i had a guy tell me one time old machinists used to work with he said i think ford has an engine from uh an engine for every cubic inch from one all the way to like 600 because they've got a lot of industrial motors that nobody even knows about they have so many different ford engines out there this is just a small example these are the common v8 motors but they had a bunch of other engines that a lot of industrial stuff that nobody even really knows about so they they have i mean ford had a ton of motors they had a y block another v8 black in the day they had a flat head they had all so this certainly isn't all of the v8s that we have available but these are the common ones so if you have any questions or you have any comments you have anything to add to this i certainly don't know everything there is to know about fords some of the information that i gave out may not be 100 accurate i'm just going by some of the research that i've done i know when it comes to fordheads there's so much that you could know and add to this so i'm sure there's some forward gurus out there if you want to add anything i welcome that you know if you want to correct something that i said no problem uh i'm doing the best i can but i certainly don't know everything i know a lot but i don't know everything so i i i try to tell people that all the time um i it when you start thinking that you know everything yeah the guy that knows everything run away from him because he's going to break stuff and hurt people so uh just keep that in mind so i appreciate you watching and hopefully this will pique your interest and we'll get started on tearing this thing down and once we get going on the build i'll document everything and we'll walk through it and we'll learn something together i appreciate it make sure you subscribe below right or make any comments that you want and we'll see you soon bow bow bow bow bow

Channel: Myvintageiron7512

Views: 609,033

Rating: 4.7587562 out of 5

Keywords: YouTube Editor

Id: ccjxHT6dfXo

Length: 27min 51sec (1671 seconds)

Published: Thu Nov 17 2016