Firearms Facts: The 45 Confusion

welcome back everybody this is Eric and Ray here and we're here at Moss today we've got a very special video for you here we're going to be doing a video called the 45 confusion if you guys haven't seen them check out some of the previous videos that we've done we did one called the 22 confusion the thirty cow confusion where we discuss all of the different parrot cartridges that go along with 20 to 30 boar we've done one on nine-millimeter now we're going to talk about the old famed 45 bore you know and the bore diameter of 45 and some of the confusion that comes along with it there are some projectile differences there's some cartridge differences there's certainly some things to discuss and some things that you should probably know going into it 45 yeah 45 is an old school cartridge you know the 1911 is a powerhouse of a pistol it served a lot of folks really well over the years it's an old cartridge been around a long time 45 acp is probably where when people think 45 to think 45 oh definitely and ER you know it's got this bit of aura around it as being a great knockdown caliber and it can be there's no doubt about it this certainly will put you on your butt faster than the ball 9 millimeter if you're shooting ball ammo side by side so there's definitely some some good stuff about the larger bullets yeah they all fall to the 45 ball that's the old say okay you know and there's there's definitely nothing wrong with 45 ball going downrange and messing things up there's a lot of confusion out there about 45 as a caliber and 45 and generalized measurement when it comes to guns you know we've got a lot of different cartridges here we're going to kind of go down the line and discuss some of them briefly we're going to go down the line here we've already talked about 45 acp this is some Lehigh defense ammunition with some crazy stuff going on here so this is sort of taken our concept of talking about old-school 45 acp taken to the next level some of these modern carry loads modern carry modern propellants and modern projectile designs have really allowed the 45 ACP to remain a mainstay and just to be an awesome caliber even now here we got some five gap all right there's a big difference already so you have the Glock automatic pistol or gap and essentially with gap it's basically a small primer it is okay which is it was one thing to consider and it's also a shortened case or did a few millimeters so the reason they did that is so that Glock could fit that into their smaller frames you get a grip size the same as a 19 or 23 yet you're shooting a 45 caliber projectile I thought also there's probably a lot of vanity that went on with that mr. Glock probably wanted something with his moniker on it so why not make the 45 gap yeah something simple enough to do I already had most of the tooling is it popular no it's pretty much dead it's kind of gone by the wayside Chad really likes it he's got a whole bunch of that stuff he likes weird stuff anyway though that's his problem well Chad Chad got on the 45 gap bandwagon dude and he wound up buying a model 38 and that's getting in we need to do a video called the Glock confusion and talk about a lot of model numbers that'll that'll get you really mixed up quickly but the Glock 38 and 45 gap it's a pistol that he has seriously I can't make this up I can't make it up that you know the numbering system for Glock is just kind of consecutive and they go along as they make them and they had the numbers to the gun for the model designation but it keeps getting confusing so you got a 38 that's a 45 you've got a 40 that's a 10-millimeter you got a 45 that's a milliliter so they do that on I don't know all right we're gonna we're gonna keep moving on here but that's it that's another story for another time boys and girls all right so here we got another old-school 45 now outside the wheelhouse probably even older than 45 HTTP our 455 Webley the Webley is it's actually a bit older because it was done in the early mark series of web we break open revolvers the bore diameter has changed a bit over the years because they called it all kinds of different things 476 I think and 455 and ended up being pretty much the same as 45 ACP the Brits have always done things a little bit weird with her worth measurements which are not Imperial and they're not metric they're whitworth they're British you know odd enough so that's about as close as it gets to 45 ACP diameter the energy on that is pretty anemic the conical bullets were not good Stoppers better than the 38 webley's but they're not better than the 455 Healy ball in the semi-autos or the fourth 45 ACP but just a neat piece of history the Brits used it to great effect there in the wars and they were issued very widely but 45 caliber it is but it's not the same as anything else yeah and and you'll wind up seeing a lot of 455 Webley revolver that have had the cylinder shaved to accept 45 ACP you know have a modified to shoot 45 ACP and that's mainly just ammunition availability just to make you know so you don't have to source the oddball ammunition this is a box of old-school Fiocchi 262 grain lead nose very very anemic the 455 Webley is a cool old-school classic 45 and guys speaking of 45s and old-school guns there are so many old-school forty-five bore guns out there and some that are even intermediate so you can do some research there's tons of cool stuff out there but this is an old-school 45 that's even older than the 45 acp we see in the 1911 alright so moving down the line we're running into 45 colt now this is some Winchester PDX one defender ammunition this is a modern version of the the 45 colt yeah this is definitely getting into some some higher pressures and better bullet designs better propellant but you know as a cartridge 45 colt and some circles might seem a little anemic compared to some of the other but stomping things we have out there but a lot of potential earlier today's modern revolvers the interesting part about 45 colt is the fact that bullet diameters have changed over the years as to what has become pretty commonly 45 caliber in the 450 - - 454 diameter depending on the manufacturer but mostly for 54 right starting out as 457 some bores have gone down as low as four 52 or 51 even 51 so 45 ACP is 451 452 depending on the manufacturer 450 1.5 they do the weirdness there they meet in the middle it's it's just real real weird the way they do it but yeah 45 colt is an awesome caliber it just gives the whole gamut of power from real basic lead cowboy loads up to better than 44 Magnum ballistics if you've got the revolver or a lever gun that can handle it or something else that can handle the pressure sure yeah so all the way down from anaemic up to but stomping and the 45 colt utilizes 454 diameter projectiles too much okay so getting into 454 we're gonna step up our game a little bit and get into the and I'm checking just to make sure I grab the right one this is 454 casull now you're talking essentially 454 casull and this is just sort of my take on it you let me know if I'm if I'm wrong here but 454 casull is 245 colt that's 44 Magnum is - 44 special light it's kind of a hot rod at 45 colt pretty much yeah yeah victus ol wanted something that was just interchangeable with the 45 colt as far as being able to shoot Colts in the gun if he wanted something softer and just off the shelf but wanted something just awesome as far as power goes why not stick with the 45 is one of the most popular calibers in the world in the United States especially so just make it bigger and better that's what he did that's all we do here in the United States make it bigger and badder right that's right more powder you know bigger heavier bullets maybe you know getting into some more powder in there get more velocity more energy downrange you know 45 bore bullets and we're going to get into some rifle cartridges here in a moment but they have the ballistics of a marshmallow they tend to have you know really poor BC's they fall out of the air like crazy they have very elliptical trajectories and but they maintain a lot of carrying energy at extended ranges and we're going to talk about that a little bit as we get into 4570 here in a moment and we're going to talk about the different 45 70s as well absolutely so all right we're gonna go down the line here this is 460 Smith and Wesson Magnum so again this is taking the concept of alright we're not quite at forty five seventy and a revolver because that would be stupid even though it's been active research makes a forty five seventy Romer other people have done it the old gunsmiths back in the days would take two colt single-action armies cut them in half braise two cylinders together raised two frames together to make a forty five seventy revolver yeah crazy enough as it was all black powder stuff so the guys usually didn't come apart there you go so if you're crazy enough to do it right and pull the trigger on it enough you're probably real interesting I'm sure I'm sure yeah you know the 460 Magnum is a but stomping cartridge you're getting into entry level 4570 territory you're getting some power out of this cartridge so you're way way above the territory you're going to be in with 454 casull you can obviously see comparing the two a lot more powder going downrange you know a lot more velocity you're getting very similar bullet weights but simply more is better right more is good or and taking you know I used to have a 460 VXR Smith & Wesson revolver I think it was one of the ones that had the either 12 or 13 inch barrel you know one of the big boys in 460 man it puts holes in things it's just crazy yeah so you get into 460 and that's definitely a magnum class handgun caliber that still launches a 45 pill this just gets into a handgun that's huge though it's not a particularly portable unit you almost made a travel or something like that to drag behind you to carry the thing well having a lever rifle in that caliber with ease something to behold that would be also I know big horn and a few of those types of companies if I'm thinking right yeah the big the big horns they make like a I believe a 500 Magnum this lever gun and I don't know if there were six people they could probably do it ya know that would be a heck of a lever gun cartridge there a lot of power going down versatile kind of a fine line especially as you start to get into a rifle which has a little bit more weight the 460 would do really well on a rifle because you're not getting into the heavier recoil energy of some of the top-end 4570 loads but you're not getting in something a little bit anemic like I mean some people may not want a lever action in 45 colt if they are not happy with the power getting up into something like that gets you into kind of that middle range between 45 70 and then like 454 casull and everything one of the nice things about the 4/6 is you can shoot the 454 and the 45 colt a couple of others you can shoot two that are pretty obsolete like the 45 puts that shorter when I'm thinking about there's some nevermind I'm not thinking about the right one I was thinking about the Russian stuff and 44 there's so many cars even we get confused occasionally that's right it's it's a nice cartridge though gives you some versatility so we're gonna we're gonna go into a couple of more modern 45 cartridges and we're gonna talk them out a little bit and we're also going to talk a little bit about bullet diameters because it can get a little bit confusing so you know with the 45 ACP you can get into 451 452 territory here we got into 454 454 casull and then you start getting into a diameter we call 458 which is what we would pretty much consider for our 45 70's 458 SOCOM's not for 450 Bushmaster so there's some confusion the 450 Bushmaster still uses a 452 diameter projectile does not use a 458 so you're getting some reasonably good power in a relatively short action there's a Bushmaster cartridge and they've developed this for a short a are minor platforms definitely hang platforms and the so we've got something else here the 458 SOCOM which is also specifically designed belief about romex I'm not mistaken I think they did that for the AR platform and it uses a it uses all kinds of different projectiles at 4:58 so you can pick a lot of different bullets you can and your nominal bullet weights on your 458 SOCOM's are going to be around the 300 grain range yeah getting into 300 maybe some heavies getting into subsonic if you wish you can also go lighter on the projectiles the twist rates on the 458 SOCOM's are really really flexible for a wide variety of different bullet weights the brass life is a little spotty for reloading probably not going to get a ton of firings that is a relatively high pressure cartridge but I have a cm mg anvil this chambered in this and it will absolutely lay down deer and hogs and all kind of medium to even large game and it is centered around an AR platform and it's sort of if you think about it in a way it's it's kind of a bottleneck 4570 ish because you're getting into the same exact projectile you would put in a forty five seventy or 458 SOCOM or anything for 50 a twin mag you can basically get all but the very top ten to forty five seventy ballistics out of an AR which is nice you know so that's kind of taking that whole 45 bore thing and going into a little bit more modern you know you look at like 577 450 martini-henry that gets really confusing because they call it a 450 but the projectile size on that is actually 468 in some cases even fatter to fit you know because martini rifling is or Henry rifling is kind of odd well as odd Valley speaks yeah it's not the most consistent stuff in the world either because you had all kinds of different countries making that thing Indians were making all kinds of stuff up in the mountains and hammering things out of water pipes so there's there's tons of different variations there the and again that goes to the point that they're measuring not the bore diameter sometimes but the groove diameter so that's another confusing part is some countries measure bore some measure groove diameter mainly it's all borne out across the world but up until say fairly modern times you could get measurements bore or groove and that's another confusing part of alright I mean you look at 303 British it's not 303 it's like 318 or 313 like cash bullets have to be often sized all the way to a 3/16 to 3:18 depending on how fat the bore is and your your projectile g'bye such as Sierra's they're going to be a 3:12 or a 3:13 diameter to be able to make up that that fatness there you know it's not a 303 again you add that five thousand eight and bam you get 313 so that's been a lot of confusing yeah a lot of confusing even with manufacturers there's there were times when barrels for 45 Colts were 454 diameter and the dang cylinder throats were 452 that's what are you doing you're squeezing the bullet down before it even gets to the barrel and it's wobbling down the bore and accuracy is 4 crap so yeah they fixed that but it took them a little while if you're forcing cone as smaller than the bore what are you doing you're forcing the bullet down and then it's tumbling down the bore not getting any accuracy so that's definitely something to consider alright now we're going to discuss the 4570 now this has almost a confusing or all in itself okay definitely mainly because rifles were built for so long for this caliber it was one of our first military rifle cartridges I mean as far as metallic cartridge goes yeah truly one of the earliest and one of the most popular so this was built for trapdoor Springfield's and those things are not strong they are not meant to take pressures over about 23,000 psi and that's still pushing that you know I'm starting to getting that out of black powder really it really is I mean you can do it but you got to do something stupid mainly and we try not to do that so originally was a blast that outer perfect I will do it on purpose a lot but we don't do it by accident so this particular caliber and case everything about it pressures range from the 18,000 PSI range to own up into the 50 thousands depending on the action that the cartridge is going to be put into you so your 4570 trap doors keep it mild black powder equivalent pressures and loadings and that's what you get out of the boxes for most manufacturers today unless you go to a specialty maker like say Buffalo bore someone of that nature and they specifically have it on their box this is not for certain guns only for certain actions and they load different levels so this federal this is going to be soft it's going to be mild and pleasant to shoot in an average gun unless it's really really lightweight performance wise though back down here to the castle it's only about 1500 feet per second or less with say a 400 grain bullet for that equivalent but with proper powders and a strong action the gun can be moved up to almost 458 Winchester Magnum ballistics very close to it the bore diameter has pretty much stayed pretty solid at 457 458 throughout its whole life so that's the one thing that has been consistent about nothing else yeah well there you go you know it's a very very old school cartridge that's been around a good minute and when you look up reloading data for the 4570 you're gonna definitely see some warnings and caveats that are put into place there you know and they actually have a reloading sections specifically for the 1895 action they have a reloading section specifically for the Ruger number one action the Ruger number one is probably one of the strongest actions for the 4570 you can take Ruger number ones and you can load 4570 suits some stupid pressures and it will absolutely hold it if your shoulder can and you can also stabilize a wide variety of different bullet weights and 4570 which make it a really really great cartridge for a wide variety of different applications forty five seventy bucks the brush really really well pushes through you can get all the way down to as low as like maybe a 260 280 green bullet all the way up to around the 600 grain bullet it'll stabilize them just fine a lot of your original 4570 from back in the day in the early days of metallic cartridges paper patched projectiles so they would paper patch them out to get really good velocities and also to be able to push those cast bullets at faster velocities papers gasps paper patching we're kind of the first gas checks that we started to see because a paper patch is nothing more than a gas check not only to provide a tight fit in the board to but to protect the base of the projectile and to provide a nice tight fit to make sure that bullet grabs the lands and and really gets out of there really good absolutely oh yeah you know with the 4570 there were lots of offshoots from it there were shorter cartridges for lever guns that couldn't quite fit this in there there were longer cartridges for bigger actions or single shots so you see 45 65 45 and 90 45 110 45 130 it's this just adds to the confusion and most of those we're designating the powder charge that fit in the case for particular guns in particular overall loadings so that's another part of the confusion when it comes to nomenclature on 45 caliber that's right you know and and a lot of it also comes down you look at 45 70 a 45 projectile on 70 grains of powder 45 70 so there's even confusion in the naming of a lot of these projectile are a lot of these these rounds as well you know 45 120 would make you assume that there's 120 grains of powder in the cartridge and that goes back to the old days of when they used to sell basic brass in a lot of cases so a lot of different gunsmiths out on the frontier and stuff would be able to take a given piece of brass and trim it to whatever the customer's rifle may require so what they started to get in the idea of us well heck let's try to make this 4570 more powerful instead of cutting the brass down let's stuff it full of powder and put a bullet on top and punch the chamber out and be able to just get more velocity they found that there was kind of a threshold there that once you kind of cross a certain point on the Powder we've discussed this in previous videos they just weren't getting a ton of extra power power they're just burning up a lot of extra powder that's neither here nor there but to let you know that there's a storied history to the 45 bore and what is done not only you know it's the 45 bore as 45 colt 45 70 45 ACP 45 as a diameter as a bullet size has probably had you know more storied history in American history than anything else I mean it is the American bullet diameter well and it got started long before metallic cartridges the Kentucky long rifle well known for superb accuracy and a lot of over 45 caliber is one of the most preferred calibers overall for that even before that flintlocks were done in it has just tended to be something easy to manufacture probably because a lot of stock was made in half-inch and it was really easy to cut it down slightly to make your cutters to cut bores to 45 caliber sure don't have to remove a lot of material stock to make the cherries for pulling bore cutters through so make a few little minor adjustments to half-inch stock and there you are you got 45 caliber you know our theory on it tonight I can't help but think that you know that's a totally feasible theory because you look at the you know the 577 450 you look at the martini-henry cartridge they experimented with 40 bore martinis that were in a 40 caliber bore well why take away all that meat I don't know I think they wound up kind of experimenting a bit and kind of going back to the 45 bore in that without getting on a tangent because I don't want this to be a much longer video but I'll just mention quickly that you know they had a lot of success with the 45 caliber Whitworth and I think that they were trying to replicate that a lot in a breech load gun in the martini I think is what they really wanted now last but not least we're gonna talk about a modern Magnum in the 45 bore that is just so cool it is the 45 Winchester Magnum which is this guy right here we've got it loaded with one of the lehigh projectiles which brings it into the modern cartridge class even more so than it already is but once you has to develop this for African game hunting bore diameters over there in most states in Africa require that they be 40 caliber or a larger before you can hunt big game with it big five so Winchester's like and we want to get on this game so they said okay we're going to make this in our model 70 and our particular parameters are 500 gram bullets 2,000 feet per second fast enough to kill just about anything that walks crawls or flies of the United States or anywhere on earth oh yeah they semi failed at that they kind of exaggerated velocities in the gun today's modern powders you can do that with but then be lucky to get 1900 maybe 1850 out of the powders and the projectiles with the barrel lengths that they wanted basically an over glorified 4570 it pretty much was it kicked harder higher pressures and wasn't particularly stable at very high temperatures the pressure's tended to spike because they tended to overload it to trying to get they're trying to get those numbers and they just didn't have the powder technology at the time to do it so Jack lot decided hey that's what do that make it longer put more powder in it more powder and more power same pressure so lot extended the case by like an eighth of an inch a give or take and set them side-by-side you can easily see the difference there and that basically brought the 500 grain bullet up into the twenty one hundred feet per second class and giving all of the energy that you'd ever need oh yeah so yeah these are two the most popular 45 calibers for big-game worldwide these days there's certainly others 460 Weatherby Magnum which is another confusion there it is a 458 just with a much bigger case than even the lot here and more 60s it belted it's belted yes oh yeah all the Weatherby stuff pretty much is there whether it be name-brand they do a lot of other calibers they get away oh that thing yeah that thing punches it both things really good you start getting into a five six hundred grain bullet moving at you know the thing is something that's big and heavy like that moving slow is nasty yeah you get it moving fast and you add speed and weight into the equation you get a tremendous amount of downrange power excellent penetration good weight retention really big wound cavities you know a lot of these animals that these guys are hunting you know overseas with these big heavy bullets moving fast they've got to punch through big heavy shoulders bone muscle tissue I mean and they've got to do it in a way that you know is a humane kill and they've also got to do it in a way where the animal doesn't kill them right because those things get anger if you punch a hole in them and it doesn't kill them yes elephants buffalo hippopotamus those things will like you in half and one one just one bite you're done hippos kill a lot of people over there and and their bones they're very aggressive if you've ever seen the videos of hippos going after boats and stuff it's like no I hit the gas meter not good those things are fast for their size a July even on land they're not as fast as it there's a buffalo yeah I don't know about that I'm sure there's something I'm worn again I have a picnic on the side of the river hanging out gonna die on my own business yeah I'm glad glad we don't have those around here alligators are bad enough cuz they'll sneak up on your own here well well south of it if you ever decide to have a picnic on the side of the river with a hippo nearby you got your 458 Lott so hopefully this gave you a bit of food for thought gave you something to think about you know maybe you didn't know some of this stuff existed now you do I would strongly recommend that you check out a book called cartridges of the world it's it's gone out in multiple different volumes and updates over the year there's been some edits to in editions but basically the information there is pretty awesome the books are available from a number of sources I know brown house keeps them in their inventory you can get into them and a few other places online so if you're looking for good material just as a reference that's a great one it's got all kinds of information a lot of stuff you probably don't want to know but you know honestly my thing is I do want to know I'm the kind of guy you know I love oddball guns I love old-school weird you know quirky kind of stuff so you know sometimes going into a situation being more educated you don't have to know every single cartridge that's ever been you know the cartridges of the world will detail a cartridge that they might only made like 12 guns in it because they put it in there it's just something to know so you may not have to know every little you know nuke and cranny of every obsolete oddball cartridge that they made 12 guns up however it'll help you go into a potential purchase decision a little bit you know armed with knowledge to kind of know if it's something that you want to go down that rabbit hole or not you know a lot of people get into guns I don't know you know and also keep you safe from you know physical harm if you're looking at a particular gun and you not quite sure what the cartridge is if you've done a little bit of very search on the cartridges and the history is in there and it'll tell you about the guns that it was most likely chambered in so say okay I know what that is there it's probably this caliber not that caliber that they've got written on the tags actually there are a lot of a lot of misinformation out there a lot of mistakes that are made not necessarily purposefully but mistakes I've seen plenty of mis marked guns at gun shows even from vendors that have been doing this for a long time you know we're not infallible either we make mistakes I'm sure that you'll see that from us on occasion but we're aiming everybody makes mistakes so we just try to keep it from hurting us that's right yeah don't be afraid to you know do a chamber cast if you're not sure or if you're not comfortable doing that take a gun to a gunsmith have them do a chamber cast for you they can take some measurements and determine what exactly you're working with don't be afraid to ask questions don't be afraid to research you know it is not a problem you should always try to seek out as much information as you can guys this is not all the forty five boards that are out there these are probably some of the most commonly encountered yes in the wild this is not even close to being all of them guys we hope that you've enjoyed today's video maybe we gave you some food for thought you learned something maybe you've seen something you never seen before and that was the goal of today's video was to expose you to some different 45s and kind of discuss you know why even you know everything is in a name and sometimes it can be a little confusing but to sort of discuss that for y'all yeah one more 45 if the Chad does a good editing job this one would be 45 minutes long that's right well there you go alright guys thanks for watching today's video ray thanks for hanging out in today's video your wealth of knowledge I appreciate it guys you know we post an all kind of content we really really appreciate the support from all you guys you're great thank you very much for the support we'll see you next time [Music] you

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Length: 30min 57sec (1857 seconds)

Published: Wed Feb 20 2019