Fear of Being Taken Advantage of w/ Disguised Toast | Dr. K Interviews

looking for gotta get my notebook gotta change over interview let's see that there we go that works how are you uh i'm doing good doing good i usually don't wake up this early but uh i am wide awake now what what time is it where you are it is 10 a.m here normally i wake up around 12 but uh yeah ah it's always there's always like a good reason to wake up early it's always nice to have a reason to wake up yeah well i thank you very much for you know inconveniencing yourself for our sake hmm i've been uh meaning to come on here for a while uh i know i i guess you've talked to every single other offline tv member huh i actually don't know if i have or haven't uh pokey lily scarra michael and yvonne so yeah they've all been on so i'm here to help you finish your infinity gauntlet oh wow okay well i mean do you feel pressured to come on because other people from otp have come on uh no no um i mean people have tried pressuring me to go on but i just say no okay uh so the reason why i came on uh well people have been asking um for a while now because i talk about like a lot of my thought process and people are always like oh you should go on drk but the response i've always given them is like i don't feel like it's necessary and um because it's content i also had to reconcile like the fact that it's content but it's also meant to be like beneficial or like eye-opening experience for people to listen in um so i think your wife reached out to me saying hey you guys have free private sessions um because i think people from your side like not your wife but like people on your team have sent me like 10 emails like i could show you the uh twitter dm's not sure if yourself it's just like 10 requests for me to come on the show oh wow which i've ignored uh but uh i vote i'm just not big on replying but i think your wife reached out saying hey we have some free private sessions just for your own benefit um which is also what made me agree to go on when the private session was offered i'm like oh they're nice enough to offer private session where there's no content to be made so that's pretty chill of them so yeah i will go on the public session one okay interesting um that's how i got here well i'm i'm sorry that you know i didn't uh on behalf of my team for which i take responsibility if they were pestering you i'm i'm really sorry about that no no no not at all not at all um thanks for the feedback because i'll you know we'll circle back because we we haven't really heard that from anyone else we we try to actually be quite respectful of people not wanting to come on um i also am you know it's kind of interesting about 70 of the people that i've worked with like i do for free historically um and i i'm i'm wondering whether yeah i'm kind of surprised to hear you say all that stuff but i'm kind of you know if if if i was which is news to me um offering to meet with you privately for free why how would that motivate you to come on publicly if you didn't want to earlier like that's weird um because it's a nice thing to do to offer like private therapy sessions uh because there's no gain essentially to be had right at least not an immediate obvious gain um so and i felt like you know your wife was offering me uh uh a favor and she didn't have to so i like that um when people are nice yeah and i like being nice back what should i call you because i know you as disguised toast i mean i've been watching like i started watching your hearthstone streams many many years ago probably like back when like i i also remember i was watching you for a while because i think you made it a lot of like meme friendly content right and if i remember the origin of your name it's it's what the guy says when you coin out defies bandit on turn one yeah wow you're an oh gee i am an og like back when chillwind yeti was actually a solid card you know and then and so watched prior to um i i still remember actually like one of the most memorable things was when someone leaked your face and i really loved your response video to that yeah um that was uh wow that was a long time ago yeah man and and i i still remember if i remember the sentiment correctly you were like this is for fun it's not like i'm actually trying to hide and like people are sort of taking it too far and like it's fine like i don't mind showing my face but you know the whole point was to like entertain people and it was yeah i mean yeah like it's it's cooler to have like a gimmick like especially when you're starting out as a streamer and like sorry now it's it's always awkward when you become a content creator on the internet because my biggest fear was just like my friends finding out and making fun of me because it's it's kind of it's kind of like uh like being an internet stream is one of those big dreams kids have nowadays you know they used to want to be a singer or an actor but now it's like oh i want to be a video game streamer so uh yeah can i just jump in what should i call you today um you can call me toast okay most people call me toast like jeremy's more intimate but i don't know anyone like in my like friend group who calls me jeremy do you want people to call you jeremy no no no okay a weird meal at this point just because i'm just so used to hearing toast yeah um and and so i want to just also take a step back for a second uh toast and just sort of let's think this through so you know if we offered if you you know we tried to do you a kindness and in return you want to do a kindness to us i can totally respect it it's a hundred percent how i operate in my personal life and i also want to be a little bit careful because um you don't have to do us a kindness i know it's kind of weird because we're already streaming at this point right but i i i think that like you know i i don't want you to feel um i mean i i sort of am getting the feeling or i'm interpreting that you're feeling kind of like almost a sense of like repayment like you're you're you're doing you know you're like paying a debt by coming on stream um which i think is going to be interesting because i'm like really curious whether that's a pattern that exists elsewhere in your life um right and then uh but but i also want to be clear that like i'm actually okay i know it's gonna be weird and i know it's gonna be anticlimactic but like the only way that i can do this because you're right that it's weird because it's like content and helping people that's sort of like a conflict of interest if you think about it right like what am i really here for and so the only way that i can resolve that conflict of interest is i actually am not here to help the internet i'm here to help the person that i talk to it's the only way that i can do this because otherwise it gets too confusing um and by having that is my north star it actually makes all the decision making easy and i know it sounds kind of weird but like what that also means is like if you're here because you feel like you have to be here because we tried to do you a solid we could just stop and i'm totally fine with that i'm serious i don't know just imagine the stream ending instantly five minutes in um but toast let's really think about that for a second okay because like like i want you to think about like what what lesson does that teach people who are watching well i think the world is definitely better off if every nice act was reciprocated with a nice act of its own uh but without obligation to do so i think there is an expectation but not an obligation if that makes sense like i you know do my friends a lot solid and sometimes rarely i would ask for one back but when i do ask for one back it's not an obligation right because i didn't i wasn't nice to you with the expectation that you're nice to me back but if i lend you twenty dollars on tuesday and next friday i ask for ten dollars like hey can i get a loan ten dollars and you pay for something and you say no i would never like demand hey that's not fair i gave you 20 bucks last week but more like in the back of my head i'm gonna mentally note you know i did a solid but they weren't able to like do one back and i think that's just human nature right i think absolutely the majority of people yeah so i know it sounds kind of weird toast but i think sometimes feelings of obligation get people to make sacrifices and i know it's weird but sometimes those sacrifices i don't think are actually healthy right so like like we actually had a one of our coaches brought up an interesting case so there's a client who's in a relationship and you know i'm gonna kind of anonymize it but like and they're they they're in a relationship where their partner sometimes has trouble and they feel obligated to help their partner even at significant cost to themself and it's actually like not a healthy situation because their partner is not actually like taking care of themselves so they are forced to take care of their partner out of obligation and every time they make that sacrifice it's like they're holding their partner up well like sacrificing their own life and and so you know i think acting out of obligation like i think it's an honorable way to live you seem like an honorable dude um i read your tweet longer or your twit and so i i think it's really cool to see like how you have an internal compass that drives you forward um and uh but you know i think it's important to kind of like at least notice this pattern at this point i don't think you're going to leave but but i i think it would be interesting right because maybe you would be signaling to people that like hey like just because you feel obligated to do something if it's not something what you don't want to do like you don't have to do it yeah uh definitely like um the whole reason why i am on here is because like i don't feel obligated to but um it's just nice i guess to be able to do it um like when people badger me for something it makes me not want to do it more and people have been asking me to go on i mean that's the whole reason why i haven't come on sooner is because i just didn't feel like it uh people ask i don't really feel obligated but okay it's like until i feel like hey you know there's a good reason to and i'm not sure if there's a good reason to right now but i was about to ask what's the good reason uh i think i mean a week ago those whole that whole um online drama stuff going on and coming back to california but other than that i've always felt my life was good enough like and did not have a reason to come on but i always do like talking about streamer meta like what's it like being a streamer the stuff we think about like the money we make a lot of like i like doing like an inside look at a streamer's mindset and i think uh the healthy gamer show you know does something a very similar way it's like an inside look at them you know the mental health of streamers in general so i don't know we can talk about anything really i like talking about spicy stuff like drama stuff it's you you said you do like or you don't like i do like um which is sometimes hard because you know we never want to leak names or like implicate people but i do like talking about like sensitive topic like money or like as sure you may learn like racism sexism like sometimes social issues but i actually don't like talking about those too much because i don't really have an opinion like gun laws and abortion sometimes bring it up just to like meme and make people uncomfortable but um the other topics is just more interesting yeah so toast you've always struck me as a thinker you know like i know you meme and i know you make fun content and i know you're an entertainer but i do get the sense that like behind that is like actually a lot of thought and i think your you know your face reveal conversation was a good example of that i still remember uh watching a youtube video where you went over like how much streamers make and you kind of talked about sponsorships and things like that um and and so you know i i think if you enjoy talking about things that are a little bit at the edge of what's polite i think that that's actually like really fantastic i think a lot of what you're sharing is like per align with like my personal goals and goals as an organization because i think a lot of times we don't talk about the bad stuff right we don't always we're not we don't always acknowledge like some of these issues and that that's part of the reason that they continue to go on because they're never brought to light so i'd love to hear you know whatever juiciness you want to talk about i mean if you have any ideas about where we could get started um and then there are one or two other thoughts that i have unless you have a direction you'd like to go uh let's circle back to the conversation of like um helping friends and expectation obligations yeah uh it's uh i have a lot of expectation from my friends and people my social circle what is that you have a lot of expectation from or towards from them like they expect a lot from you and then i so i try to provide my friends with a lot of content and like help their career and like just whatever support they need um putting them in situations where like the talent can grow and uh i have this i think one of my worries is like it's like um raising baby birds in a nest and once they're ready to leave the nest and letting them go and hoping that they come back one day and like visit and not forget you or another analogy well streaming is like running a marathon and i don't mind slowing down to help my friends who are lagging behind or like tripping but it always worries me that once they get up and running like they just full sprinted down that like not look back not try and slow down for anyone um not sure if i'm making sense but uh can i can i repeat back what i heard sure so what i'm kind of hearing is that you may slow down to help people up but then you're worried whether it's accurate or not that they may leave you behind that maybe one day you'll stumble and they're not going to look back yeah yeah i'd say so however like they won't they won't even like slow down for their friends not necessarily me because i'm generally okay by myself um like my career has always been like at the forefront but like like if they had friends like they won't even slow down for them so it's just that the scene is constantly about the chase right like the numbers the getting ahead being top dog it's just the grind non-stop so whenever i do see like kindness like it speaks a lot to me you try hard to be a kind person yeah yeah try my best what do you give up by doing that nothing really like i feel like people are always saying like they have sacrifices to make but uh i feel like i never gave anything up because their talent was already there like and their humor so like i also just gained benefit just by being around them like being in the good content that's happening so i don't feel like i ever give anything up i feel like i'm more just unlocking their potential that they've always had so it's not like oh i could have had a bigger stream or i could have had a bigger presence if i didn't help them it's never like that i always i only benefit from people's success so it's just that small worry that uh people are always seeking that next level like all right what's gonna get me more pure who's bigger than me that can collab with now that i'm bigger so let me see if i'm kind of getting you so on the one hand you know it's kind of interesting because you're sort of saying that like okay there's the scene right and the scene is the grind and growing and like always like okay can i collab with toast oh wow like toast is collabing with me and then like part of the nature of the beast is like they're gonna grow and then like they're gonna collab with someone else right because at some point we're gonna reach toast we're gonna pass toast and there's toast back there but like let's keep going up and and your experience is that you don't it's not like you sacrifice a whole lot in supporting people that sounds like you genuinely really do enjoy helping people reach their full potential um that you also notice that there is kind of like a benefit right because if you find someone who is talented and you unlock their potential like you guys can create content together that content is ultimately like improved the more people you know if you get multiple people involved you can make more than what you could make on your own so i'm not hearing you making any kind of like noble sacrifice like oh my god i helped you so much yeah and i gave you my kidney yeah like the reason why i don't feel like too bad about it because at the end of the day it's like they are just talented by themselves they're just not in the right situation sure like sure in the right game or have the right collab partners so sure you sound like you're very good at kind of um enabling people yes yeah yeah i would say that's like one of my best talents is not it's just recognizing good content because i feel like i myself is i'm pretty limited by like what is possible because at the end of the day like i am like sarcastic my i have a sarcastic persona um and my games that i'm good at are very like thinking logical like nerdy games and i always felt like i have like a ceiling that is more obvious than um other people might have so i like seeing like how far other people can go sure so where do you think that fear comes from the fear of sort of being left behind [Music] oh that k i don't know if you know this about me but when i talk about feelings i start tearing up it's not because i don't know why it's not it's never because i'm sad because i'm just talking about stuff um but when i talk about things that are a little more emotional in nature like my tear duct just start like you know start trying to i think it's because like i don't talk about emotions much so my brain is thinking oh if he's talking about emotion he must be sad and he wants to cry so let's make him cry it's funny because it's so stupid and you get my point across but i can't because when i tried so people have disappointed me since i came to california when you're a solo streamer it's like i'm going to the top [ __ ] all of you kind of deal like i i had drama with like quite a few hearthstone streamers when i was coming up just like looking back is just stupid but it's like an ego [ __ ] talk battle of who's the best streamer kind of deal like stuff like that um but when you have friends and you collab with people and it gets really complicated and my policy is i generally will just support someone especially my friends do and like host them and like appear on their streams and just like genuinely want them to do well and to be able to make a living off it a lot of situations have turned out fine but there are quite a few situations that you know if you have followed otv's history um has gone really bad and we don't really interact with those people anymore and it's like it's happened quite a few times and it's people like i trusted so yeah so how you holding up man i'm good i'm good i just i i know like these things i can talk about and like they're normal to talk about i just need practice talking about it um but you know it happened a few times actually so it wasn't even like a one-off thing okay and that is like smaller versions of that that gets settled internally too as well okay um can i ask so when i when i asked you a question you got emotional do you know what emotion you were feeling ah not sadness i think uh it's just oh this is like sensitive stuff yeah um yeah i i got that impression too that there's some what i what i saw in you is like remembering a hurt yeah i don't know i don't feel that hurt by it honestly i i don't know if that's where the fear comes from it's just like an easy example to point to and say you know the there are people that i did believe in that end up doing not so great things so is that like feeling betrayed disappointed uh i think disappointed mostly because they don't usually end up hurting me or they just end up doing some something stupid that hurt other people what happens is hurt you oh that one is more just anger and like vindictive i'm a very petty person and i remember the wrongs that had done to me uh there's not a lot of them but i am the type to you kind of hold on to grudges um but i usually react with anger or revenge uh if i'm personally like upseted by someone's action will you let me know if i get close to making an enemy of you of course uh usually it's like really let me know yeah so let me know where that line is okay i i do not want to wind up across the other side of that border i wouldn't say this really i don't have any enemies right now at most i just have people i don't like interact with so when someone says to me that i'm a vindictive person who has no enemies there's a part of me that wonders yeah you have no enemies left because they're all six feet under at this point i i like i like um beating people like when i was streaming tft when it first came out like i made it a point to stream over the time slot of my competition so i think the first month i was doing 12 hour streams and they were like time so that i start right before the first like big tft streamer gets on and i end right after the last big tft streamer finishes for the day um so like i really and my attitude that time was just like i'm gonna i'm gonna bury this guy and i don't i don't really like have a problem with them it's just the competition of being a streamer but like when i had to do back then was like like you gotta stay in second place and i'm gonna be first place and had the viewers um but now that you know i'm on facebook and i'm in my killing years um it's a lot less antagonistic and more just hey you know you you your friends you guys want to play some games let's you know you want yeah i can pop by your stream and i think that's one nice thing about being on facebook is uh i can just provide content to my friends without thinking oh you know well what about my stream you know why are we having this stream on my stream so um yeah i'm i'm at a pretty nice place right now in terms of providing content but that's kind of what my attitude used to be when it comes to like competition so toast i'm gonna can i just think for a second yeah so there are a lot of different things that are kind of popping in my mind i'm not quite sure what has significance so one is um you know you mentioned that things were a little bit uh you know unharmonious or not harmonious during the early stages of hearthstone or maybe when you were a hearthstone streamer there was some kind of conflict i think we talked a lot about sort of this um you know you describe it as a small fear because you strike me as a pretty resilient guy where like if you do have issues or call them whatever you want to you seem to be like pretty good at like setting those aside kind of being able to do your work finding compassion sort of like not feeling super burnt out you seem to really be about you know supporting other people and that feels very genuine to me like i don't think you're you know trying to grow someone just so you can farm people to collaborate with it's sort of like you recognize that this person is talented and you recognize that by making content with them it sort of helps you grow helps them grow all seems super genuine to me um and there are a couple of things that i'm not quite sure how to connect um but one is sort of this idea that like it's almost like you know i'm gonna toss out a strong word here which is like abandonment but when i kind of think about the birds in the nest it's like they're gonna leave and they're never gonna come back and that sounds a touch like like one word you know if we want to use a big word like maybe a little bit hyperbole maybe a little bit extreme is like abandonment um it sounds like sometimes people have sort of like wronged you in the past and and then there this is where i get kind of confused about whether this is related or not um is there is this kind of idea of like you kind of mentioned that you have a a ceiling right in the games that you play and that you're kind of aware of what your ceiling is and that's why you gravitate towards games like hearthstone or tft because you're never going to have the reflexes of the fortnite pros or this or that right like you can and even if we think about you know your your hearthstone content like um hopefully this doesn't let me know if this evokes any kind of hurt but like you're not known for being the best at hearthstone like the reason that your content was great was because it was very entertaining and so i'm wondering whether there's a correlation between sort of this idea that i have a ceiling the fact that other people will sort of like leave you behind at some point because there's only so fast that you can run um because if you kind of and then also like on the flip side whether that like kind of manifests is like i'm abu number one [ __ ] you know like striving to be number one and i don't know if any of those things are actually related i mean they can all be independent it's just those are the three things that i'm kind of feeling are like floating to the surface [Music] and and when it comes to being vindictive being hurt um you know there's a part of me that almost wants to ask the question like and i think the answer oddly enough is yes but for a little while i thought it was no like would you know what feeling hurt felt like i yeah yeah i think so i think um i don't like it when people violate my trust like i tell you hey x secret and i say don't tell anyone and they end up telling someone like i think that's the biggest way to like get on my bad side because yeah so i think like i feel like there are stronger words popping up here because that sounds like betrayal to me yeah and i'm very harsh with my friends when they do that yeah so so when it comes to and then now we circle back to like expectations so i'm kind of thinking about okay toast i know you're here i know everyone including us wanted you here and so like i know that everyone's being satisfied but like my question is still like how can we help you as a person you know like is there something that not that you need help because this also like you kind of said earlier that life is good enough whereas like i don't think you the people in fact i think we've created this bias where like people come on here because they've got some problem or some issue or some difficulty whereas like it's really my belief that like you know you can always climb like it doesn't you don't and everyone should be trying to climb right like you can always grow as a person um what i'm kind of curious about is whether and i think if you want to if you feel like any of this is relevant or important to you um i can lay out an argument of why i think it may be worth exploring but i'm just curious like what resonates with you nothing really pops out like like i don't think i have any problems like emotionally i don't think so so yeah can i go ahead yup can i ask you um how how are your romantic relationships uh romantic relationships i i don't know um you're allowed to not answer by the way if it's not something you want to talk about i've it's uh and if you want me to explain why i'm asking i'm happy to uh i won't go into too much detail that's one of the problems with being like a public figure talking about because i've had a public relationship and that one the amount of backseaters and people commentating on it is just really annoying so since then i've kept my romantic life relatively private like i talked about bits here and there uh i kind of like not like being in a committed relationship right now because i think it's a lot of work and can i toss something out toast why ask so here's sometimes when i work with people like you and i'm making a lot of assumptions so i think like maybe what we need to do is just you know i'll ask you some basic questions like about your life and stuff but here's here's i'm gonna i'm gonna take a shot in the dark okay it's gonna be like one of these like um high risk high reward i'm making some hearthstone deck where i have no cards between that are one to five mana they're all like they're all legendaries that start at six okay uh so so the one in a hundred games where this works out and i survived it turned sex six it's it's gg wow freudian um but so here's here's what i'm concerned about is that i think you have like i don't know how to put this but you have a meta in your mind you have like a set of rules right like you operate you have a strong internal code you have there's like a whole system that isn't really in the game it's like like it's in your mind like you have a strong set of internal rules through which you operate by and that like like other people may not understand those rules right it dictates how you stream it dictates how you relate to other people it dictates like it's kind of like this honor system that you've got going on in here that sometimes it's kind of disappointing because people outside of you don't adhere to that honor system the reason i ask about romantic relationships is sometimes when you have honorable vindictive people okay and that sorry if that's you know a bad way of putting it um but like you describe yourself as penny and vindictive but you're clearly like a good dude right like and and so like when you have that kind of pattern in your mind sometimes it creates a lot of confusion and trouble especially in romantic relationships because the person on the other side of the table you're like playing with this meta that isn't apparent on the game board because the meta is not like you know the game board is the game board but it's like it's weird like i like and you're coining out defias bandits and it's like i thought we were doing no rush 20. you know like and and so sometimes it can be confusing for other people so i was just kind of wondering you know that's why i ask about romantic relationships because i wonder if um you know to put it really like specifically shot in the dark because we haven't asked you anything about them but you know whether people whether you feel like really let down by expect by someone not living up to expectations and specifically whether that person didn't realize at all that that expectation was being placed upon them [Music] does that make sense yeah that makes a lot of sense i think it's just from my point of view these expectations are very obvious like very human courtesy expectations but i can also see like it doesn't apply to everyone it's just you know because i do have like a strong sense of like what's right and what's wrong that to me it seems very straightforward very clear-cut yeah you're supposed to behave like this you're supposed to act like that um one thing i've learned from uh talking to the ladies is that they're i tend to be on a very logical scale and they are generally more emotional than i am um because being right used to be like the most important thing for me uh not like that i had to be right but like in an argument if you're in an argument with someone one of you should be right you know there are some stuff like oh should abortions be legal like that's an argument where it's just two guys arguing like there's no a defined correct answer but a lot of arguments like someone being rude i feel like there's a clear-cut right person wrong person and uh i had that attitude when it came to relationship it's like hey you know we were trying to solve a problem and you snapped at me and now we're fighting so you kind of like broke a rule right um so i feel more justified and entrenched because you violated you know what could have been a proper way to communicate now it's like name calling or like being petty um yeah so i'm i'm hearing a lot of what i was thinking may be going on which is that but because i i think you say like you know because in your mind they violated a rule but i know i'm sure that you know you're logical and ha in in here but the point is i think like i know it's kind of bizarre but like sometimes like you've got a meta up here though about how the game should be played and and sometimes i see conflict because the metas in the minds of the people that you relate to may not be the same as your meta does that make sense yeah yeah um makes sense people have told me that my way of thinking is not always correct and that i should be nicer or like be more accepting of people's flaws but i think that's a big i think we have enough of that in our friend group where we just accept people's shortcomings and their flaws and they're just like yeah well that's just who they are um so i tend to be more strict on stuff like that where you know if someone does something bad i want to have a sit down with them like i want to sit them down like in my room and explain to them like why what they did wasn't okay a little confrontational and i like a tiny like i like having friends and being close to people and like having people to rely on but i'm also afraid that um people get too familiar with you like like people always say your best friends are the one that gives you a lot of [ __ ] kind of deal um like respect is really important to me and i would love for my friends to like like me and love me but it doesn't hurt sometimes when there's a little bit of fear as well which now that i've said it out a lot of people are going to be like more aware of it but um can you help us understand that ah i i don't quite understand i i lost you there uh have you have you have you seen game of thrones yeah yeah you know people love daenerys targaryen but some people are also afraid of her but in both cases it makes them treat that person with respect yeah it makes a lot of sense so have you been i feel like a story would you know tell a thousand words here but like i'll just kind of ask have you been like taken advantage of because of your kindness mmm no no no no no i don't think people like i don't think i think i'm smart enough to know when someone's trying to take advantage of me um yeah i don't think i've been taken advantage of i think it's more just like hey you know you seem cool you know i'll work i'll play with you i'll you know talk about you you know on stream and like try and boost your numbers just you know be the best person you can and then they go and do some shady [ __ ] and it really sucks when that happens what sucks it's like cause i don't know it just looks when people you believe and disappoint you you know not it's they never do anything to me they just do something objectively shitty and um or they just like leave the nest and don't interact with like the people they used to interact with anymore how does that feel when they do that it's like up just another one for the history books like it happens so often in my mind that when it doesn't happen like it's really surprising to me like i have the expectations like you're just gonna one day not like gonna be around anymore but maybe you'll surprise me how long ago did you learn that lesson that people just don't stick around [Music] i guess a year ago when i was uh in elementary school i remember sharing a popcorn chicken with this kid in class and uh he just kind of like acted as if ha i just got a free popcorn chicken off you when i want to share it with him and when he had gum later like and i had hey can i have a piece of gum he's like huh no kind of deal and now that memory sticks out as like an example of like when you help people the expectation is like don't expect them to like return to favor like i'm surprised when people reciprocate kindness these days i feel like that should be the norm like should we help someone but like these days when someone does like show appreciation for me it catches me off guard yeah i think especially in the world that you live in there's sort of friendship and then some of y'all are in the business of friendship you know where being friends is actually not it's like a business decision and and i imagine that makes things quite tough but can i ask you can i ask you a little bit more about like when you were younger like prior to because i it was kind of confusing because you said i was like when did you learn that lesson and you were like about a year ago and then you told me a story from kindergarten with popcorn chicken gum so you know i'm i'm kind of noticing that maybe you've been on the maybe you've been burned i mean it sounds like you got burned by it pretty early sort of like doing good unto others and others taking advantage of you and not doing what was right justin uh small i think i i just place a lot of emphasis off being considerate sure um can you tell me a little bit about where you grew up uh okay i grew up uh in malaysia so i was born in taiwan but like when i was less than one years old uh my family moved to malaysia and i grew up there for about 10 years and i kept switching between an english and a chinese school so my chinese wasn't great and my english wasn't amazing and when i moved to canada i had like the malaysian version of english which is you know heavily accented and like uh the word three like i had such a huge problem pronouncing it three because i i would say tree and it took like a long time uh i had an immense fear of public speaking like the worst ever like i would just go up and just read from a piece of paper and i know you're not supposed to do that because you're supposed to make eye contact but i remember one presentation i'm like [ __ ] i am not taking my eye off the piece of paper and looking at people's reaction to my presentation um you know at that whole like asian identity growing up thing of like bringing home-cooked meals but people the kids at school having like a negative reaction to the home-cooked meal and my mom end up making like but lonely ketchup sandwiches instead because you know she doesn't want me to feel like i'm standing out uh i learned how to do oh for the first year of high school grade nine i didn't speak to anyone like i went the entire year without uh talking to anyone besides the yes and no that my teachers would ask me uh i think in grade 11 i made an effort to be social so i learned how to do magic tricks so that i could interact with people and like entertain people because i like being an entertainer um i was gonna be a game designer initially because for me that's how i could become an entertainer like i couldn't be like a streamer or because it wasn't really a thing back then or an actor or singer but i could design games that people would enjoy since i played a lot of games but i picked up like magic tricks as a way to entertain people and that slowly improved my ability to perform in a public setting um so yeah that kind of set me down on the path of being a entertainer fascinating man i'm so happy you shared that i i don't know why but i i really just really enjoyed hearing about your what growing up was like for you even though it sounds pretty rough bro no no i didn't feel rough i feel i felt like like looking back it might seem a little sad but when it was in the moment it didn't feel like it was that hard i just it just felt like that this is what life is you know yeah um yeah and you mentioned your you know your mom was quite thoughtful about you know feeding you trash to help you fit in you know setting aside some of her own values um uh yeah she was just worried that the kids would make comments yeah and and how did she how did she get worried about that was that because of something you said do you remember i thought maybe my sister said something but um sisters older or younger uh old i have an older sister and an older brother how much older uh my brother's seven years older and my sister is two years older yeah their sister's getting married and uh my brother just had a child so they're growing up and i'm still playing video games on the internet i would assume that that was a joke huh that you actually have no problem playing games on the internet oh yeah yeah yeah but it's crazy how like oh they're getting like how how like we people from my high school are literally married and have children by now but like this industry we're in it's like people are just playing games playing games playing games i think it's cool uh i think i'm not ready to vote just yet and uh it's just crazy that some people are the same age but so many different phases of their lives like like their kids are some kids are like five years old by now yeah yeah do the people and do you stay in touch with anyone in high school from high school oh i stay in touch with nobody not a single person um i do have two friends that i should stay in touch with because they were my best friends in high school but it's just been so long i feel awkward uh re-engaging so i'm just essentially waiting until i get married and one of them get married to reach out again it's like hey wanna come to my wedding it sounds like you need an excuse to re-engage with them yeah yeah and can you tell me a little bit about uh your dad oh my dad he worked most of his life um in another country so doesn't really grow up with one uh he works really hard he's more of a traditional kind of guy you know older like more family values we must always be together for chinese new year's not that strict in terms of uh you know just do what you want to do but he nags a lot and complains a lot which is always hard but you know not too much problems there i i find myself wanting to ask um what he nags about or what he complains about but i'm also wondering whether in the meta of your mind it's not acceptable to talk about things like people in your family and negative aspects of them on the internet um i don't mind talking about it a little bit like i think everyone has like family issue in it sure everyone like just typical chinese dad stuff um can you please tell us about typical chinese dads uh this is a good example oh like uh when we were fishing you would keep complaining how i didn't have the right lure because i'm not catching any fish and like when other people on the pure catching fish is like look at them they have the right lure this one's not the right one you got the wrong one and then i started catching fishes like 30 minutes later and like the whole time i was thinking like no i know what lyra they're using i got the exact same one this is the right one but it's like he just assumes like at least for my point he just assumes something was wrong so like i did something wrong and he's gonna complain about it but yeah um it was just like it's just the nature of fishing you know i wasn't gonna catch one right away but like stuff like that where it's just like bro i just i'm here to spend time with you to catch fish with you and i have to keep listening to how i got the wrong lure even though i know it's the right one yeah so it's a lot of stuff like that it's it's got to be rough to i mean i i know you're used to it and i know it's typical you know i i i'm indian so i i think that there's a lot of commonality between typical like chinese dads and typical indian dads um at the same time i i've got to imagine it's like frustrating to be blamed for lack of skill when it's rng yeah yeah like i feel like i can't be allowed to make mistakes because like because like when you learn to do something you're going to make a lot of mistakes like first time you learn to knit like or ride a bike you're going to make a lot of mistakes but it's just a pain in the ass when like your dad is next to you like paying so much attention so the second you make a mistake he just says well that's wrong and you're thinking well obviously i know what's wrong but how am i gonna know what works and what doesn't unless i'm actually trying to learn um but i didn't tell him any of that because i didn't want to snap at him and like he's at a pretty old age and i'm at an age where i should be accepting and understanding and just saying oh that's just that being dead but it does make it difficult to spend time with him sometimes hmm i'm just thinking about whether yeah thanks for sharing that i was just trying to think about whether it's worth talking about further or not oh probably not um that's family lifestyle it's just like it is what it is so it sounds like you've learned a lot from your dad's mistakes um at the same time i'm wondering whether you've internalized any of that approach in the way that you interact with other people uh someone brought it up to me and say when i was complaining about my dad they're like tell us that kind of sounds like you because you complain a lot about people as well and when they said i'm like yeah you're kind of right i do like because from my point of view i it would be similar to my dad where you just want people like do better like let's say they're doing a golf swing and i'm in the back saying oh you should adjust five degrees here but i just do it for everything like when people are streaming or like when they're playing valorant and i was vaccinating them like yeah you should take look to your left here and like you know you should go do this go to do that and i can't see how i am similar in that sense so since then i've been a little more aware at giving feedback because i know some of my friends are more receptive to it and some of my friends are more like bro why can't you just just be happy for me man or like if i if they get eighty percent on a test and you're not focused on well this is how you should have gotten a ninety percent a hundred percent so uh i think it did subconsciously rub off of me on me and um yeah like uh the whole thing about like having respect i think as a result of that what do you mean becoming like my dad when we eat dinner or lunch like the rule is nobody touches the food until he does like a lot of asian superstition kind of deal like tradition like we always have to be there for chinese new year um i think played a role and like how much respect you should show to your peers to the elders very asian chinese stuff i guess yeah so i i can definitely see the cultural component so i'm gonna circle back to romantic relationships for a second do you see this behavior as sort of influencing your romantic relationships well i don't think so i mean i've only been in one real relationship so i am not an expert on it um yeah um toast i'm not quite sure where to go so so here's here's where you have any idea what we should talk about today uh any good drama lately oh well there was that whole drama i was involved in last week but honestly that's kind of over with um why are you interested why are you looking for drama to talk about i don't know it's more interesting i guess uh i like talking about things that people find interesting yeah that's my concern right so like like do you want to talk are we here for people are we here for you uh well i've said this before um a while ago is that my biggest worry with coming on the show is that like i'm really smart when it comes to like pr and marketing and i worry that the things i say on the show is designed to evoke some kind of positive feelings towards me it's like oh toast is so genuine or toast is so vulnerable toast is so like whatever now that we had the inside look into how his mind works we see what a wonderful person he is and um because i am very capable of doing that like when i got signed to facebook and i donated like the 20 000 budget to children a children's hospital right like did i do that because i'm a benevolent person no i did it because i knew signing with facebook was going to be unpopular and this was a great opportunity to do something nice for sick children and also to get some good pr so toast here's what i'm feeling from you you're saying just enough and and so i i don't know exactly like i can imagine that there's some there are a bunch of different calculations or variables in your mind right now to where like i'm detecting some amount and i i don't know i don't want to like expose that or bully you because like i want to respect your emotional boundaries and your privacy but i also get the sense that it's like just enough and i think like we're not really talking about anything or like we're talking about stuff but we're not saying anything and does that make sense um kinda like i feel like we would never talk about anything that i didn't really want to talk about maybe i should talk about but yeah so i think that's what's going like so i i think that like i i need to understand from you you know whether because because i try to talk to people like what i want to talk i want to talk to jeremy i don't want to talk toast you know and and i think what we're here is is to do is to try like at least what i'm here to do is to try to help you but i think we can talk about like if you feel more comfortable doing societal commentary if you feel more comfortable you know having everyone get emotionally engaged with drama so that we don't have to like talk about you like that's fine like you're allowed to say i don't want to talk about this but what i'm kind of what i'm feeling from you is that you know you're like sharing some stuff about your family but like at the end of the day like there are a thousand questions here that i feel unsafe asking because i i think that you and i are like doing a little bit of tango where we're like skirting around a lot of stuff and and so i think what we've got to do is kind of take a step back how do you feel right now if i say something like that like do you feel pinned down or attacked in some way uh i think it's pretty accurate i just don't know like at least consciously i don't know where that wall is like i think it'd be easier for you to like press on something and like if i try to like deflect or like minimize it or only give you a crumb here we go why is there a wall in the first place uh because we are in a public setting and there are viewers and not just viewers live here but like people who can watch the vods and put it up on youtube that's a really good answer but i don't think that you have a wall just when you're streaming on the internet um that's an answer that i can never argue against because you're right and i think you're hiding behind it what walls do you have when no one is on camera when no one is on camera uh i don't really talk much when there's no camera on like i'm a introvert so i'm normally really quiet around my friends yeah good so that's a wall it's not just because you're an introvert right so like now we get to the crux of the problem it's like you can be toast but like i think the problem here is that i'm not interested in talking to toast i'm interested in talking to jeremy this is a conversation between two human beings like at least for me like that's the only way i can do this like personally like i can't you know like don't give us a show toast i i mean go ahead uh i feel like my entire like life is just being and entertainer being like being on on display like when i play even when i play games with friends like i would want someone to be streaming it's like uh it's really weird for me to play games and no one is streaming it it's really weird for me to do like anything without it being content because my mind is just constantly thinking like um how do we turn this into like entertainment for the masses right why does your mind do that uh i think people i i like making people laugh and i like entertaining people and why do you like i think it's because i didn't have friends in high school until i became like a magician and i entertain people so i cannot associate being entertaining to a lot of my self-worth so if you don't entertain us today what are we gonna see ah see that question seems so strange to me like i have to entertain people like this conversation that's entertaining to people right like that's why people are watching right now it's because it's not entertaining in this traditional sense of like a blockbuster film but like it's interesting to observe right yeah so sorry i was gonna toss out a joke well it is we are talking with this guy's toast so if there's blockbuster level entertainment this is where you find it so what what would we see if we if you don't entertain us more let's see if there's no camera and we're talking one-on-one and it's like a real therapy session like completely private how would i behave um probably talk about my more selfish tendencies like i feel like i put enough bad stuff out there so that people realize that streamers are human beings and have flaws and selfish thoughts like i feel like i put just enough out there that people go ah see ptosis like you know he's got good stuff and he's got bad stuff but why is it important for other people to not view you all is good uh i think it makes me more human and relatable and i i i in hearthstone there are streamers who brand themselves as super positive but i hate them because so toast they're really bad yep i'm gonna just keep interrupting you okay sorry about that okay tell me if i'm coming up on the line of being your enemy okay why do you so you say it makes me dot dot dot i'm with you there but why do you have to be made into something in the first place right it's all a mask bro like even the bad stuff is like it's kind of like here i have a a glass of clear water let me put a drop of black ink into it because this looks too pure and like what i'm getting from you is that like like you see you kind of told us like you're always an entertainer you don't know how to not be an entertainer but an entertainer is not who you are it's how you've come to relate to people and what i'm curious about is like what's going on with jeremy who's behind the mask of toast um i know i haven't uh really thought about myself like as a person [Music] like all i care about is making content really and just trying to be a good friend to people uh because i don't think it's a bad thing to base your happiness on how much you help other people like your friends like like i get a lot of joy when i see my friends succeed and like i see them happy uh that i don't really like if you ask me what makes me happy like besides oh getting more viewers or getting more money um who tries to make you happy a few of my friends my close friends uh here in california where they you know try to like they always tell me i should do things that make me happy and not care too much about like helping my friends but whenever they make those suggestions i like i can't even think of something that i would do for myself that would make me happy but i can think of like 100 things i can do for my friends to make them happy which i feel like wouldn't here make me happy i think there's a lot of value to altruism but what would you say if if a friend of a friend came to you and said i don't know how to make myself happy but i know how to make everyone around me happy i only think it's a problem when that person was helping others sacrifice their own happiness and their own mental health to do so um because there there is someone like that in a friend group and she is like constantly taking on the problems of everyone like if someone one of her girlfriends is feeling sad or like someone's going through drama like she will be the person to like listen to all of that and i see the mental toll it takes on them like because it's so much sad and negative energy that they're taking in on behalf of other people like they they revolve their identity around being like that supportive friend and uh and what's your identity i mean i i have a a very distinct identity i feel like of just you know being reliable but also being having a giant ego do you have a giant ego that's my persona i started leaning into it when back when tyler1 and dr disrespect was being popular because i would look at them and see like how much fans they would have and like people you have a big ego i do really i think so i think my ego matches like my success um so i think your first answer i i put more seems right to me you have the persona of having a big ego i think what i'm hearing from you is like i don't know it seems to me like toast has dominated to jeremy like completely like i think that you're a good dude i think you're resilient i think you care about your friends um i also hear that what you figured out is a formula that like oh if i make my friends happy that in turn makes me feel good about myself but there's something weird going on here man like there's something about like you being an entertainer like all the time and that's why i sort of ask about like your romantic relationships because like i think that oftentimes because there's there's like a certain degree of reciprocity in romantic relationships there's a certain degree of like authenticity where i think like what i'm almost hearing from you is like you're signaling to like it's so weird it's nuanced i don't even know if i'm right here but like something about you know showing a little peop like a little bit of the bad stuff makes you come across as like a little bit more authentic but there there's this part there's this part here where like i think that you know if i had to just really make a blind judgment here and i think this is probably where i'm going to be wrong because i think you're pretty well constituted for lack of a better term i'd say like i'm worried that you're afraid of what would happen if you stop being an entertainer and i think that the reason that you show people bad stuff is because you're testing the waters you're seeing daddy just crying okay can can you please yeah hold on one second now take as long as you need what happened hello chad left alone in a room with this guy's toast huh no doctor to help you oh crap he's coming back man just when i was going for the throat it's going for the otk um but like the concern that i have toast is that like you know so it's interesting because you you come across like so like i'm i'm just gonna start from the top okay and and like i may be completely out of line here so just tell me to go [ __ ] myself at any point so you know like you grew up in a world where you were used to being a no one where like you tried to be nice to other people and they took advantage of your kindness you like grew up and like you moved to canada where like you even in malaysia like you never spoke competently you know it's either like you're not good enough at chinese or not good enough at english and then you move to canada and it like that must have been kind of shocking and different you know you started eating this these bologna and ketchup sandwiches and then you know one would think that you were super sad because you didn't talk to anyone for a year you had no friends and maybe even two and then you started to learn magic when you were in the 11th grade and then you began to see that oh like if i entertain people like they'll like me right like the way to make friends is to like make other people happy and so then like you know it's interesting because when you say oh like i really wasn't sad i believe you i think that that was just your experience it's sort of like you know if i was born in the year 200 i'm never going to miss the internet because i just didn't realize it's a thing like i remember i i went to you know i used to go to india a lot and visit like my ancestral village and and there was a kid there that was my age that was like you know when you come here do you take an airplane and i was like yes i take an airplane and then he was like why don't you how do you not fall out of the airplane and i just laughed right because here this guy's never like he's like even a car is like a big deal like most of the time it's carts that are being pulled by bulls and or buffalo and so like you know when you're going pretty fast it's easy to fall out of the cart and he's like if you're going really fast like can't you it's just it was your experience and now what i'm hearing is that you've you've become an amazing person like you're clearly like you're a good dude you help people you get enjoyment out of it i don't think you're a sociopath or anything like that but then i think that there's this weird dilemma that you don't even know exactly how to recognize and like sometimes when you talk about emotions it's like it gets pretty confusing pretty quickly because i think sometime some somewhere along the way you learned how to turn down the volume on your emotions and like put on a show you become toast and like when i asked you at the beginning what do you want to want me to call you you're like yeah i feel uncomfortable if people call me jeremy i thought you said something like that and it's like okay like that's fine right but so you've become toast and even then when you think about like there are people that you care about from high school and you're you need an excuse to reach out to them and it's like why is that and it's kind of weird like i understand it i understand it 100 and i think it's it's because like you're toast to the internet toast is a cool guy toast is someone that everyone wants to be friends with toast is legit but with your friends you're jeremy like jeremy is like a different kind of guy and so then we get into some of this weird stuff like when you're you know even as you come on here like there are a lot of like calculations going in your mind like okay am i making content like what are people expecting how do i give people what they want because that's just it's become i was about to say second nature to you but actually it's become first nature to you you're always thinking about content and and stuff like that and i have no intention to you know ask you a thousand questions so that you start crying on stream and [ __ ] like we're not gonna do that because i think you'll play that role far too well but i think that somewhere along the way there's a part of you that's like struggling a little bit to like know whether is this person gonna like toast or is this person just here for toast are they willing to accept like what's underneath so i think you test people i think the reason you're mean with people is because you test them and and you kind of like see how they'll react and oddly enough it's it's kind of like the people i think that you'll feel it this could get into weird patterns where sometimes when you test people it's actually like reassuring to you in some way depending on how they respond because it means they're willing to accept the person who isn't doing magic tricks and then like the closer you get to them the more of the authenticity you show and it's interesting right because you're a little bit risque i think that's become a part of your persona but i think it's a part of you too because i don't know if you know what you can like what people can handle like how much here's the question how much of jeremy or toast can people handle because i guess in your mind you don't think it's very much i don't like getting too close to people i respect not that anyone close to means i don't respect them but more just i don't know that familiarity when you become like when someone's cool but you get to know them really well certainly they're not as cool because you know them you know like uh you know let's say you meet brad pitt and after you friends with him for like three years he's not brad pitt anymore he's just your buddy brad kind of deal um getting i feel like the more people know me the less they i'm afraid they'll find out something that makes them respect me less or something um i'm not as impressive so maybe it's better not to become too close with people what's wrong with you not being impressive why do you need to be impressive i don't know everyone wants other people to think well of them right sure of course they do yeah so but i i think you're kind of stuck here toast because who do they think well of when you get respect from someone else who are they respecting toast or jeremy i feel like i feel like they're the same person at this point okay right but then does toast let people know who he is [Music] yeah yeah i don't know like when you talk about jeremy and you talk about tales like in my mind they're the same person okay at this point i don't know if there's any separation what why do you need an excuse to reach out to your friends from high school uh it's just like an email you received like a month ago that you meant to reply to but you didn't and now it's been two years and you're looking at that email you're like god i really should reply huh but now it's awkward since it's been so long i don't want to reply out of nowhere so i'm just gonna wait until i have a reason to do so because i feel like i should have responded and the fact that didn't makes me a bad friend and it's kind of like i'm a little embarrassed to go back and reply to that email from two months ago out of nowhere and not like did they reach out to you and you didn't respond yeah it was uh they just said you know happy new years hope you're doing well and that was like january 1st yeah january 1st like 2020 so like a year and five months ago okay that turned out to be far more mundane than i was expecting that makes perfect sense man if it's just it's been too long to respond like that carries its own that has nothing to do with toast and jeremy and all that stuff that's just like you know you haven't responded to someone for like 18 months so it's sort of like yeah like i i i'd be happy to like see them again but it's just it seems so foreign that part of my life like people i knew before i became a content creator what's your sense of why you've only had one real romantic relationship well i like to think my best traits aren't visible right away also i'm really bad at talking to people i feel like uh dating people is a little bit of a numbers game like the more people you meet you're very good at talking to people what are you talking about bro but that's because you know me from when i'm a content creator right so there is a difference uh well for the first 26 12 25 25 years of my life like i wasn't a content creator uh i just went to school and worked like a computer programming job and that's not very interesting in my opinion there was that's not a lot of girls in my life that i can even talk to not that i will talk to them because i have no game um but one of the nice things about being content creator is just like people how i know i am and like hold on sorry i gotta interrupt how on earth do you not have game uh well i i would never just talk to a girl you know like i used to think not like an incel but more like um i had this idea that the more you have in common with the girl the higher chances of her liking you is so like i once found out that a girl i was into like tv show at the office and i'm like okay so if i watch the office and i have something to talk about with her that's gonna up my odds um it was this idea that affection equals attraction when they're very two two very separate thing um so like my understanding of what is attractive to a girl was really off so are you telling me that the reason that you're not in a relationship right now is because you don't know how you have no game uh that's the reason why i didn't have like a relationship for the first 25 years since becoming a content creator and a mega chat i have learned that uh it's hard like when it comes to what relationships isn't it just you're either gonna end up with them for the rest of your life or it's just a temporary thing and you shouldn't get too attached that's a question i'm curious why you know is that is that why you're not in a relationship because [Music] yeah i i don't think i'm ready to like go into a relationship and then with the mindset that this like i'm gonna make this work and this is the expectation that we're gonna be together for the rest of our life because i feel like that should be like the mindset you have not necessarily like this has to work out but more like you should get into a relationship with the expectation that you know it's gonna work out and you guys are gonna get married but so you're not you have game now right i have fame now and i have like it's easier for me to believe that toast you're you're doing something slippery you're being slippery so when i ask you what like because here's the thing every now and then you give me a really good answer and it's one that makes a lot of sense and one that i can't push back at at all like if you're like oh like i'm not ready for a relationship like you know because like the relationships are about commitment and like i'm just not ready to commit and it's like bro like you know if you're not ready for a relationship makes perfect sense like if that's really the reason like absolutely makes perfect sense while you're not in a relationship but when i push and i say is the reason you're not in a relationship right now because you're like not ready for a commitment and you can say like but then we get to this fame and game stuff and like that's where like someone doesn't smell right it's like i think what we're hearing is like the answer from the mask right which is like it makes perfect sense and i'm not saying it's wrong but i think there's something else like underneath which is like what you have now is fame so like who are they dating [Music] and so if at some point toast becomes i'm just gonna keep going okay so if at some point toast becomes jeremy what do they do they leave the nest and never come back mm-hmm right because then it it that at that point it's like you know brad pitt becomes your buddy brad beautifully put and so like what i'm when i and this this could be like i may not be right here toast i'm really not sure because like i'm just gonna keep going though because i i don't even know how much of this is gonna resonate but like what i'm kind of feeling from you is like somewhere in there there's like some general reluctance for you to let people because we've heard this like we've heard like snippets of it and maybe i'm putting together a puzzle piece that's not like you know a puzzle that's not really there but it's like like i think at some point you've got to let people get to know jeremy right you've got to stop being the entertainer you've got to like start because you have game bro like you at like forget about the fame you like a hundred percent have game like you know you do actually maybe you don't know but you've got game like i you know how to talk to people i'm a [ __ ] sake dude you know how to talk to people maybe i'm wrong like maybe you don't feel that way but like i think that there's no way that the entertainer skills don't translate like it's not because you're right that like jeremy and toast have become like blended like you know how to like you know how to bring the best out of people's potential like you know what also look at yourself in the mirror sometime like you've got game bro uh one thing i will say it feels like it's a little easier in the scene because most gamers are not that socially aware and it's just because i've been a streamer for so long that it came eventually like being able to talk to people yeah um but now i feel a little more comfortable but it's also it makes me feel a lot better going to conversations that people know who i am um because it makes me more comfortable uh not that i didn't know i'm a big deal but more like um they would find me interesting to talk to right so so this this is i i think maybe hard toast but like why do you think they wouldn't find you interesting to talk to anyway they don't really stand out like if you take away you know the fact that i am a streamer like what you what you end up with is what you can find anywhere right like uh some form of higher education uh into like slightly sarcastic personality a little above average iq but not very productive goes on reddit a lot um and not a lot of experience with women i feel like uh stuff like that like people like that are so common sounds perfect i'm serious because like sure those are some of your attributes but that's not actually who you are you're engaging intelligent funny kind yeah but people don't see that right how can they when you don't let them having people don't have a reason to even try to find out right why put in effort like i don't put an effort with someone who might be like hiddenly entertaining or like talented like i only put an effort once i see bits and pieces of it right so why not just go get to know someone who is interesting versus like who might be interesting a fair point right so but i i think that this is where i imagine we're gonna land i hope we land somewhere in the middle because you're right that like if someone is an introvert who doesn't talk to anyone like i don't know why i would go and try to get to know them really well for the option of like you know becoming you know falling in love and spending the rest of our lives together on the flip side at the other end of the spectrum is toast that everyone knows everything about and all the work has been done and they feel like they know who you are and then you're kind of trapped in the middle because if you lean too heavily on toast eventually they're gonna get to know jeremy and then brad pitt becomes your buddy brad beautiful by the way right and then at the other end of the spectrum is like the ninth grader who who no one will speak to who and i know this is where now like things get real a little bit tricky because was that person worth knowing um no i don't think so i think i think in this world society oh i think just in this at least in this scene the streaming scene is like sink or swim kind of deal like if we constantly think about like what someone could be um it's really hard because you can you can help so much people right there are so much small streamers who are struggling out there who you know are just looking for that chance but my my like way of thinking when it comes to stuff like this is like bro it's up to you to make yourself interesting and like it's up to you to entice people to want to get to know you better right like you might be interesting underneath all that and you know have a lot of potential in you but people shouldn't have to go like finding out right yeah so that's kind of it's in i think it makes a lot of sense but like i also think it's weird to hear you say that because there are a lot of people out there with a lot of potential whereas like what are you good at toast [Music] you're good at bringing people's potential out yeah i would say so which sounds to me like a little like now i get confused because i'm with you like so i think ever in a sense everything you're saying makes sense that if you want to make it as a streamer and if you want to like i think this is true like if you want to find a good partner you gotta advertise like they're not gonna come you know like dig underneath layers and layers of stuff but i i think that there's like you're kind of like i'm feeling you i'm feeling that this conversation keeps bouncing between two extremes which is one is like you know there's a part of you that's toast and you should abso absolutely advertise your good qualities and like that's a piece of it but i think there's this other weird thing where like underneath toast and the reason you like being toast is because you know i'm just gonna put it out there this is a no-brainer like fundamentally somewhere down there i think you feel a little bit unlovable right like you feel like there's like a like a touch of the ugliness in there and like we hear it manifest in weird ways like i have fame but i don't have game bro you have tons of game like i hate to break it to you because i i think you can't it's not just your fame it's like it's the things that made you famous which you have right it's it's that part that it's your ability to make other people laugh it's your ability to like notice things in the world around you and be a little bit sarcastic like your persona is a part of who you are but i think like underneath like there's still the ninth grader and so when it goes back to high school it's like you become successful you become someone that everyone wants to be friends with apparently you become someone that we dm once a month asking you to come on stream because you're hot [ __ ] and so i think you end up like testing people to see like what if i'm not toast like what if i don't act what if i don't entertain like what will you think about me then and it's been you've been doing it for so long that like the two have gotten tangled up and all you are is toast but i think that there's you know when you talk about the wall like i think the reason the wall is there is because you're afraid of what's on the other side which is someone that's not worth knowing and then we get stuck because that will always be true until you let the wall down you let someone see what's on the other side and they're like yeah that guy's cool and the reason i keep on hammering on a romantic relationship is because i think that you're not gonna it's gonna be hard to succeed in a romantic relationship until you do that because i don't know that you can be an entertainer like 24 7 for your likes like significant other oh the solution is to just be entertaining all the time from the sounds of it like i i guess that's the way i think like i understand why it's it's not the solution bro it's the problem because do you see what you're doing to yourself elevating myself by constantly pushing myself forward so yeah i mean you're you're you're trapping yourself by going to higher and higher elevations it's like you're like a cat that climbs up the tree and doesn't know how to get down like the solution is not for you to be entertaining 100 of the time it's the opposite how does that sound to you i would rather just figure out a way to be even more entertaining honestly um toast yeah go keep going sorry it's just like you know i started off as a someone who just posts infographics on reddit right and then i became a hearthstone youtuber and then a hearthstone streamer and then a tft stream ready to move to california and like became like not just a hearthstone gamer but like a content creator that collabs with other content creators and then you know offline tv and among us blowing up and now like being friends with like even like people who i i look up to or like content i used to watch right it's just like this career it's just a constant sense of like you know let's let's keep going let's keep going like i wanna work in hollywood i wanna write a script i wanna like meet taylor swift kind of do i wanna be friends with taylor some kind of deal but there's a sense of just constantly elevating yourself right and because we see streamers become irrelevant very often um they might have 10 000 viewers one day and like next year the game dies or you know they take a break and become irrelevant and yeah it's just constantly pushing yourself to raise yourself up that sounds exhausting yeah but you know in terms of job like it's a it's a pretty good gig you know what are you hearing me say you said it sounded exhausting yeah but in general like do you get the sense i feel like i'm trying to present something to you and i i don't think we're on the same page what do you think what what are you hearing me when when i try to understand you what are you hearing like what's your impression of what i think is going on with you uh impression is that i revolve a lot of my identity and self-worth and being like an entertainer and like you said it's exhausting or it's like people like constantly having to like push and like being entertained 24 7. like you it's definitely meant to be taken as not a great thing right as a tiring thing to do over and over again uh but is is that it um it just feels feels like uh like the scene is it's very doggy dog kind of deal and that's kind of what i like about it as well so yeah i think that's that's a good summary what what are you what are you hearing i'm at what am i advocating that you do not revolve my self-worth around like like i should do things i don't know people like should i learn to do things that's not content should i pick up a hobby for myself for my like own mental health but what if my own mental health is just like my hobby is being an entertainer right okay so i'm gonna ask you one more question toast you can dodge as many questions as you want to please be completely honest with this one no dodging allowed okay on a scale of one to ten of stupidity ten being this is the stupidest idea that's ever been conceived in the world and one is this is absolutely brilliant what do you think about the plan that i'm advocating for you is it just the dumbest [ __ ] [ __ ] you've ever heard of or is it absolutely brilliant uh-huh no what's this plan specifically to try to be less of an entertainer to try to show which one which number was the dumb one 10 is a dumb one then it's 10. okay good uh like yeah i mean my my career is based on being entertaining i completely yeah it'd be crazy to not think about content all the time and i like it's like i also enjoy doing it it was something like oh god i hate doing content or like i can't think about that stuff right now that makes sense but like the idea of getting more people to like me is really appealing to me like on social media like what post would people want um i agree like great why is it sometimes i try and force thing sorry why do you why do you want to be bigger i believe i was i am destined to have a big impact on the world it's like main character syndrome i have that like there's no way i've been put on this earth to just be a regular person um i'm here to have an impact like a big impact and you know it might be on my desk bed that i realized ah turns out i was just slightly above average but like even now my expectation is that in 10 years i would have done or 10 or 20 years that i would have done something that leaves a huge impact on the world and i think at this rate it might be something in the entertainment scene um maybe in 20 years that streaming you know it's like you got you got music and then you have movies and tv and streaming is like right alongside of it and like people will remember me as i know a walt disney of streaming or steven spielberg or streaming um i it could end up being something else like i don't know maybe i start caring about world hunger or something but um that's why i want to get bigger all the time it's like i'm fulfilling my colon called destiny beautiful love it how do you feel about sharing that uh you think you overstepped a little bit showed a little bit of what's underneath the mask well i've talked about this a little bit this also feeds into my whole ego persona which is why i'm okay with it and a lot of people say like everyone's the main character in their own story right but i have met people who are just content with life in terms of like you know being an accountant starting a family and that's what the majority of people end up doing um but i feel like there's that subset of people who i'm gonna be a famous hollywood star and then move to california things don't work out i i just have this expectation that things will always work out for me because it's meant to work out for me right so toast i actually owe you an apology why because i think i was trying to lead you somewhere and i think that was a mistake so i i'm still pretty confident that i'm right about most of what i said i just don't think it's like i don't think it matters right now oh well what did you learn from uh what i said just now so you want to make an impact right yeah like what is the nature of the impact that you're looking for to leave a legacy to be remembered to be noticed right and what i see that is is like you're never gonna be the ninth grader who doesn't talk to anyone ever again and you're gonna rise so high that no one will ever be able to leave you behind where you are the ceiling you determine the ceiling you are the measure against which other people aim to be you know like that's when you'll be secure like when you're absolutely on top is when you don't have to worry about being left behind like and so i i see what drives you i think it's great that it drives you i think it's actually very adaptive i think it's going to cause you a lot of suffering years from now but i think that maybe that's what we need to have another conversation if if if so this is what i'll leave with you leave you with okay i think it's great that you're driven to be the best to be this wonderful thing and i think it's like my head is so far up my ass in terms of thinking that you should it's really a mistake on my part like i was applying my own value system to you how old are you now toast if you don't uh 29. okay so i'm like a decade older than you are i'm married i have kids and all that kind of stuff so like my position is is different from yours um for what it's worth i felt the same way that you did many many years ago um so i i'd say that really like my my the mistake that i made is i was trying to have a conversation with you that was like potentially a decade too early maybe it'll never be there maybe actually you'll you know you'll end up in a completely different place and the conversation will never be appropriate but i'm still hearing i think the mistake that i made is that i i get the sense that i mean i think i'm i'm pretty confident that your drive to succeed comes from a sense of inadequacy what do you think about that uh i can agree with that um i find myself when it comes to like relationships and dating i tend to gravitate towards girls that are having problems with their lives or like needs to be fixed in some way or just like yep that i can be of use besides just like being smart or being funny or being carried but like actual direct use like you can demonstrate your value in the relationship you can bring yes right demonstrating value is very important right and like why does someone need to demonstrate value toast that i mean that's just how humans work right like if you're gonna date someone you gotta demonstrate value so that nope they are worth it to you that's not how humans work so that that that is how humor is what like in a relationship like i mean value can be so many different things right if they make you laugh you know that's value if they're physically fit you know and you're attracted that that's value so there's a key there's a key word there which is demonstrate demonstrate is about showing so i think the crazy thing here and this is where like i'm going to bark up this tree as long as i want to is never going to get anywhere which is like you bring value to the relationship without fixing someone's problems like that's the fundamental disagreement that you and i have what do you think about that right because like like this is this is how this works it's like why do you gravitate because you're like halfway there it's just like why do you gravitate towards people who you can fix it's because so you can like demonstrate your value white is demonstrating your value like why is that important to you because it solves an anxiety that you're not bringing value because if you can show them and you can show yourself hey look what i bring to this relationship then it's like everything's fine does that make sense it's like very like psychologically appeasing to bring value to a relationship there's proof there's evidence what do you think about that [Music] i just don't think my best traits are visible by like just north day-to-day being able to like be an entertainer and like of actual use like solving people's problems it's more believable for me when someone is attracted to that exactly well said right but but now now there's an important word there and i i'm maybe i should just stop at this point like let me know like does this do you think we're making it like is this worth our time or am i just are we just ships passing in the night and like this is an unproductive conversation what are you thinking i need an honest answer from you bro i think we're on the same page in terms of like like why my way of thinking isn't that it's a little like i should believe in myself that you know me as a person is enough and like people would want to get into relationships with me with just being myself but but just makes me feel better man like if uh if it just makes me feel a little more confident a little less insecure because i i know that the bad thing about the way i think when it comes to like fixing people is eventually i'm gonna run out things to fix right like let's say i found this girl and i fixed her up and she's an amazing woman but one day she's i if i'm doing my job correctly she's gonna be fixed and there's nothing gonna like there's no problem for me to solve and that's when i start then what no what is she gonna do when you fix her well maybe peace out or you know leave the nest because she doesn't need you anymore because the foundation of your relationship was you being of value to her and if the only thing that you bring to her is value and you're done with that then she doesn't need you anymore oh maybe in the time we were together she liked what she saw and would stay yeah so i just gotta rope him in first with uh got him helpful gotta have the right lure on the hook yeah and then you know then i can demonstrate like jeremy in a way what do you think about that seems perfect and perfectly fine what's the i mean the downside is oh she leaves and i don't think i'm that bullish or naive to help someone who is only interested in like their their own selves or like selfish nature i think i'm really good at finding people that are good people and i think so i'm helping them that they already passed a lot of like my internal check mark i think so too but i i do think it's important toast to like recognize that at some point you're gonna have to make that transition and to recognize that that transition where you show her who jeremy is and maybe she'll stick around she doesn't need you anymore like that's going to be terrifying for you or is it not am i wrong there you seem skeptical i'm confident which means that i think we just we're on the same page there maybe we've split um maybe i used too strong of a word maybe no more or reluctant uh i think if i was like that was a girl he would be the kind of girl to not just leave after she's fixed up but this is the problem man how do you know whether she's that kind of girl or not ah i mean this is all on top of my we i know we didn't really talk about this file so don't like being committed in a relationship right now either so i don't think it's just me not finding the right girl as well i think it's just i feel like when i'm dating someone it's essentially committing the rest of my life with them that does sound to me to be a little bit different but but i mean if if you want me to toast because you know this is i'm a psychiatrist i don't know if you do this but if you knew this but as psychiatrists sometimes we can always find a way to prove ourselves right it's one of the flaws of our profession and it's one that i'm afraid i could be falling into which is why i need your you know i need you to tell me but i can twist that into exactly what we're talking about now too if you want me to i'm gonna give it a quick shot uh no i i just think the problem isn't the the girl here i agree what do you think the problem is the bigger problem is just i like it's either life or like death do us a part or it's just one-time fling right yep so so why why are you afraid to go down the death to us part route i don't know and this is a long time since it's a long time i i breakups are hard breakups are really hard and i don't like the idea of going through a breakup like it's normal for relationships to not work out but man i i feel really bad having to break up with someone to a point where i just rather not be what's so hard about breakups i mean you care about this person a lot right but you also can't like you you're gonna if you guys are breaking up you reach the point where it's better for you guys to not be with each other and like all that time you shared with each other like to just become essentially strangers after like so long that's that's uh i hate hurting people's feelings and it's easier to just not be in a relationship this way one's feelings get hurt right yeah sounds very logical yeah why why does anyone ever engage in a relationship then makes them happy would a relationship make you happy ah i think until i'm okay with the idea of like breakup being a possibility i don't think a relationship will make me happy because it's always going to be in the back of my head like i'll toast hope you're in for the long haul because you're going to be with this person until you die or i hope you're ready to break someone's heart and make them cry and like being in a relationship with that in the back of your mind the whole time gives me a lot of anxiety and like makes me feel like a fraud when i'm with the person like oh god she doesn't know that i'm gonna have to break up with her eventually yeah makes sense it sounds like you're trying to protect people yeah is that weird to say no no i think because of my like whole i gotta climb i gotta climb i'm afraid that i'm applying that to my romantic life as well it's like oh this girl is like this this this and this but what if another girl comes along that's like even upgrade better in every single way and i used to feel like that more strongly but these days i realize um you know everyone is very different in their own way and honestly like time spent with someone is worth something right like the memories you've built the hardship in dior i used to have this attitude that there exists perfect relationships out there but like realistically for every human being in the world there's like thousands of people that they can end up marrying and like living the rest of their lives out with right there's no one right person and it's crazy to think about in my opinion that we have this one life and let's say there's multiple timelines like in this timeline i married woman a and i'm happy and i die of old age with her and there's another timeline like and i met woman b first and i can marry her as well and i dialed with her like like marriage even though it's meant to seem like such an important final choice it there's no right answer it could be not any woman but there is like multiple possibilities and that's scary because it's easy when there's a right choice but one is like oh yeah you can end up with her girl died together i came out with her and grow old and die together there's no right answer and that is a little scary to me because i kind of grew up with the whole like fairytale romantic outcome but i'm learning that you know there are some people in life you're going to be more compatible with and there are multiple partners that are suited for you to spend the rest of your life with makes a lot of sense man yeah i can imagine how that can be kind of like bewildering right because if there isn't a right answer then how do you know who to pick can i think for a second yeah sure how you feeling right now uh good okay good i feel like we talked about relationships a lot uh which does make me just a tiny bit uncomfortable more because i know every like my [ __ ] friends and family are watching and they would you know people love talking and gossiping and uh i know i feel like relationships to one thing i try to keep quiet about not for me but for the people it might affect sure i i think you've mentioned several times i think it's it's you made clear to me that from a value standpoint you are you're very protective of the people that you care about and that you're actually okay like you know being attacked personally or like being made fun of but when it comes to the people that you care about it's like the no no zone yeah because everyone had different about i can set my own boundaries but yeah i would never want to serve for someone else so i know that the topic is relationships what's your understanding of why i keep on asking because i'm the one who's driving the relationship conversation right that's me in the driver's seat why do you think i'm driving there ah is it because i it's the one thing i don't want to talk sorry um like i'm hiding something there like there's something there yep that's that's why good that's exactly right so so can i explain what i think is there so i think like the the challenge is going to be that you have too many right answers if we talk about anything else does that make sense yes so it's going to be too easy to pull me into an intellectual conversation about what's good to do and what's bad to do so i think relationships is like where like there's a lot of stuff like you know here that i think that you can't quite make as much of an abstract argument about so when i when i ask you about relationships i don't know if you notice but i'm not asking anything about anyone that you've been in a relationship with like i get that you have that boundary i'm you know i'm asking about you in the relationship how you approach relationships how you think about relationships what you're afraid of and i think the reason is because with the relationship is like the thing that brings the tension between jeremy and toast kind of like front and center for me like out of everything we've talked about because i think you can be like a noble friend and you're in your like platonic relationships i can be i think you probably are a wonderful sibling and a wonderful son um i i think that you do right by a lot of people because you care about a lot of people i think relationships is the one thing where like things are gonna start to feel a little bit more contradictory it's also challenging because as a streamer friendship is so complicated already right because there's like are we friends because we like each other or are we friends because we collab and we make good content together like why is this person hanging out with me it all gets tangled together right because this is a professional relationship is it a platonic relationship like it's all tangled but what i'm hearing from you toast is is oddly enough even though you disagree with me i'm i'm kind of finding that no actually you don't just i think we're as you mentioned i think we're actually kind of on the same page i think you've got to continue to climb but the the concern that i have is at some point i think if you want to be in a healthy romantic relationship and yeah i mean you know these things dude like you're the one who's giving me the ammo because you're like i try to date people who are busted in some way so that i can try to fix them and then like i know it sounds kind of weird but i think everyone can actually identify with that and why do you try to fix them it's because it makes you feel good right like they know what you're bringing to the table so that you don't have to worry about being and sorry if this is out of line but you don't have to worry about being 9th grade jeremy because you can you feel more comfortable with like them knowing toast because then you don't have to be 9th grade jeremy and you want to rise to the top of your field because if you're at the top of your field you certainly ate 9th grade jeremy so i hear i see a theme which i don't know if it's right or wrong it's really for you to think about you got to tell me like that's right or that's wrong because i think you do bring a lot of value to people i think you're a very good entertainer and i'm a little bit afraid that it's going to be hard for you to show someone if someone knows your fame it's going to be hard for them to like you even told us right like you're you're kind of like brad pitt and your buddy brad and making that transition is going to be hard and there are all these different things that like the theme that i see here is that you're trying to move away from 9th grade jeremy in as many ways as possible either you date someone who you can fix or you demonstrate your value because the idea that you have intrinsic value is like kind of confusing and i know that intellectually you understand that concept but let's be clear having intrinsic value does not make you a successful streamer having extra intrinsic value makes you a successful streamer and so you have a world that reinforces this principle which is absolutely true and at the end of the day life is good enough so what are we even talking about here which i get completely because i i here i am pushing you to change something that you don't think is not only broke it's not broken it's amazing it's the reason for your success and here's [ __ ] this guy telling you to like be different like show people what's underneath the mask like show people that that you can be 9th grade jeremy you're like how [ __ ] dumb is that the whole reason that i am where i am is because i moved away from ninth grade jeremy and i became someone else i learned how to be entertaining i learned how to be useful to the people around me instead of someone who sits alone in the cafeteria and doesn't talk to a soul i don't want to be that person and you're right like your success is because you aren't ninth grade jeremy you're disguised toast right like your toast that's who you are you bring value you protect people you collaborate with people you bring you you bring people to their full potential and you're going to make your mark on the world you're going to start streaming before the first tft streamer starts you're going to stop streaming after the last tft streamer restarts no way to get left behind if you're at the front of the pack uh i like having power and authority because i trust myself to use it responsibly when it's other people at the helm like if certain people have like power or like authority over others i feel like it's not always used fairly like this injustice and what other people do and i trust myself the most that given a leadership role or like a power dynamic that i would always make the right choice for everyone um i have this big sense of righteousness or like justice in my like in my world like i hate like i hate it when people are rude or bullies like i get really triggered by it and that's also one of the reason why i push myself a lot because people are selfish and they're prone to doing stupid selfish things that put themselves it's like that marathon again right when i'm leading the pack it's easy for me to look back and like see where everyone elevate other people bring them forward yeah yeah but i've seen what it's like for others to be like ahead of a pack like you have the power but not use it for others and i don't like it when that happens so i like that's why i feel like i need to be constantly bigger and also you know again i don't want them leaving the nest as well do you actually mean that or was that a joke uh i i do feel a little i do feel negative feelings like what is sadness or like resentment when someone just completely up and leaves not like disappear but more just like hey i'm gonna associate with those guys now you know like adios adios kind of deal i'm gonna go play with those guys because uh that's my crew now you know i get more viewers with them or i get more attention with them but i i know it's normal to want that but it does feel like empty nest syndrome where i just you know at the very least i wish they but come visit every now and then instead of just making it feel like they forgot about us not just me specifically but like i mean it does affect me but like if they came back to the nest and still like played with like other friends or people they used to play with like that's fine but when they completely up and just only focus on their own thing and like branch out i do feel sad i feel sad i guess yeah okay so yeah yeah for what it's worth toast i i think it makes sense that you trust yourself you know i i i think you seem like a good dude i can understand why you trust yourself i think it's kind of tricky though because the more that you the more you're forced to trust yourself the harder it is to trust other people and what i'm kind of hearing even is as you kind of talk about empty nest syndrome is it's like it's like sort of a you know you talk about sadness i i'm feeling a lack of fairness a lack of reciprocity a certain not just sadness like if my dog passes away like that's sad like there's a certain like not quite maliciousness but like maybe even obliviousness or lack of compassion or consideration that feels very unfair to me about what you're describing yes okay um can i can i toss one last uh um can i test one last provocative thing your way so i could also imagine given what we just talked about that you trust in yourself and it's hard to trust other people because people have like you know taking advantage of your kindness and they've left you hanging fair yeah yeah yeah i can imagine that it would be hard to want to be in a committed relationship because like that's kind of the situation where like if you're going all in and someone leaves the nest then because like that's when they're not supposed to leave right like that's the whole point of a committed relationship it's like a promise and and when i just kind of put myself in your shoes for a second like i kind of think about what would hurt the most is it's if i go all in and they say they go all in and then they don't go all in and that like i don't think i would want to open myself up to that possibility of hurt um [Music] i feel like in all the dating i've done you know in the last four or five years i've always been the one with one foot out the door and i don't know why like what do you think i think when you have one foot out the door you minimize the hurt like oh you can't get upset at me because i said it wasn't serious candy or like i just feel bad like i feel like i'm lying to a girl when i start dating them because i feel like the girls are always going in with like strong commitment with the expectations that we're gonna get married and when i enter like dating a relationship it's always very that's probably not gonna work out and i always feel like some anxiety like oh i have this knowledge that it won't work out but she doesn't know so i'm misleading her and i should just break up with her right now so i i feel like we could dig into this more i'm sort of i want to be a little bit cognizant of time so let me ask you like wonder because i it's too juicy toast too much of an entertainer you know why do you think you have one foot out the door right because i get what you're saying that like you know it's sort of unfair to them because you have one foot out the door when things start and you try to be transparent with them but damn it you're such a mega chad they fall in love with you anyway but why don't you let me put it this way so let me try to reframe a little bit like is it that you have one foot out the door or you only put one foot in the door [Music] maybe it's the second one i don't feel like i've ever went into a relationship with really high hopes and maybe i shouldn't have gotten into those relationships in the first place so what keeps you from having high hopes i don't know i i keep like like sometimes i wish i would come across a girl that makes me feel like bam i am ready for marriage kind of deal um i don't know if a girl like that exists because i've met a lot of you know amazing you know girls or talented but would you let yourself fall in love ah i don't think so i think i think i need to be okay with the relationship not working out because if i'm not okay with that if i enter a relationship like that anxiety eats me up because i have tried like dating and being in a relationship with someone and like i just remember like one weekend like that it's in the back of my head just like oh god what if we break out what if we break our freak out and it made me like not want to be that made me check out from the relationship like almost like in the self-sabotaging way of just like okay let's just get it over with then and um i feel like i would feel like that no matter who it is and that i need to somehow be okay with the idea that it's normal in a relationship for people to break up things don't always work out sure but yeah i mean i think that would be wonderful we could wave a magic wand and have you be okay with it but i think the real question is why aren't you okay with it to begin with i don't want to hurt people's feelings that's rude um like why do that to someone you care about right like even if i we don't end up together like if i'm dating them it's because i care about them a lot but where do you get the idea that things are going to end poorly right because there's that thought in your head that you're just going to end up hurting her this is kind of interesting because it's sort of like this weird trap where like the more you like her the more you care about her you have this thought that oh my god we're going to break up i don't want to hurt her and the more you pull back well if we're not breaking up we're spending the rest of our life together right that's pretty scary what's scary about that i don't know like things change so fast like as a person as well like like last year this time i didn't i wasn't even playing among us and now i've played the wrongness and it's already ended and it was in the span of what nine months i i don't know what the future will hold you know like when when i think about divorces honestly it's comforting because at the end of the day people get divorces all the time right and i should be okay with breakup people break up all the time people get divorced that's why there's divorce lawyers it's so common that there's a law specialization dedicated to divorces um but i think i would want to know that i am going to marry this person before i start dating them which is almost impossible because you kind of make that decision once you're in a relationship with them i think it's a very good insight what would it mean if you knew ahead of time that you were marrying someone what would that do for your mind i think it'd be a lot more comforting and wash away my anxiety i wish yeah like what would it wash away like the idea that i'll be hurting someone [Music] like i'm okay with the idea of spending the rest of my life with someone like that part isn't scary the part that's scary is like it not working out and you have to have the conversation of a divorce or a breakup yeah so i i see that's where i think it makes a lot of sense toast i think i'm gonna once again kind of like i think there's a tricky thing right because when you've got one foot out the door part of the reason sometimes the reason that people have one foot out the door is so that they're not left in the room when the other person leaves and i'm i don't know if it's like bias on my part but i'm hearing like this theme of like uncertainty like among us was everything nine months ago and like i can't count on it being there now and and i i think it's tricky because like there's something else that i'm translating in my mind which is that you care about other people and you don't care about yourself so like there it is again where it's sort of like oh like you know my friends come first other people come first i don't want to hurt this person but like what what i think it's hard because what about them hurting you and i think this is why like you know i asked you earlier would you let yourself fall in love with someone and you said no and that makes perfect sense to me because as long as you're not in love like they're not going to leave you behind you're not going to leave the nest one day when you talk about a fear of commitment i think it's i think it's weird it's not that you're wrong here i think it's just i'm sensing more than what you're saying which is that i think you genuinely are like a really good person and you try really hard to like protect your friends and care about people that you love but i think like sometimes it's kind of hard because i don't think you let yourself feel the same way about them that they do that they feel about you because you are a giga chad and so they do fall in love and then when you break up with them because you've had one foot out the door the whole time and they get confused because they love you so much but they can feel you pulling away and then you feel bad because you can see it happening and you can see yourself not being able to love them back and then you like leave and then they feel hurt and then you're like oh my god it's going to happen again because i can't let myself love and you're damn right it's going to happen again until you let yourself fall in love bro and that's going to be scary because if you fall in love maybe you're going to be in the room you're going to be decorating you're going to be organizing yourself shelves and one day you're going to come home and there's going to be no one there honestly i thought about this it's like i wish i sometimes secretly wish i was in that position after of being the one who's being hurt i i think i would much rather have a girl break up with me than me breaking up with a girl because if the girl broke up with me and i'm sad about it that means that means that you know at least i cared a lot right and it also means i didn't have to be the one you like be the one hurting someone else yeah you're the one who's suffering you're the one who's alone yeah because are you are you good at being alone toast yeah i love being alone well not not like love love but uh there is some sense of comfort in being alone every night has there been a period of your life where you felt very alone but even in a weird way sad but not sad mmm like sadness feels normal [Music] um i don't think so not like sad sad but more just irrelevant yeah sounds like ninth grade jeremy so i i know you're comfortable being that like aside a relevant you know is now i feel like i'm really pushing you to accept what i'm saying so that's a mistake but i just love it if you think about it i think like irrelevant is such a good word oh man it says so much right it's so so much about your ambitions your legacy the mark that you want to make on the world and i think this is where like i know it's like i'm barking up the wrong tree here but i don't think you need to do anything else to be relevant toast and i know that's a good perplexing to you so that's fine we can just kind of agree to disagree there but i think what you've accomplished in this life is enough i think you've had a very powerful impact on a lot of individuals and you'll say that too but you won't accept it if i say it to you uh i feel like i haven't had the impact i want because the gaming scene is so small like it's true so it's it's growing but and i i want to be at the forefront of it um but i am not satisfied with what i've done yeah so i i i support you a hundred percent in wanting to do more if you feel like your work on this earth is not complete yet and that you have like something more that you need to offer the world then by all means go for it like seriously i i support you 100 i sometimes worry that that can come at the cost of yourself and i know you're willing to pay that price i know that helping other people get brings you a lot of fulfillment so i don't get the sense that you're like sacrificing every day oh my god it's so hard to be me you know like you enjoy life like it's good so i'm not saying it that way but you know i think there's something to be said of of there's accomplishing something and making the world a better place is a wonderful thing and that doesn't that's not the only thing that makes you relevant and that's where i think we diverge which is fine you know i'm okay with that you okay with that um yeah um i think it's just a streamer mindset like i know like everyone has intrinsic self-worth but i just happen to like thrive in their industry that is very numbers based and uh yeah so here's here's what i'd kind of leave you with um you know if you have additional questions or anything let me know i'd say that if at some point you decide that you want to better understand if you want to learn why you have one foot in the door and one foot out the door if you want to work through some of those anxieties that you have at the beginning of the relationship i think that's something that can be done i i don't know exactly what the follow-up is there i'm i'm not saying you i can do it for you i'm not saying that you have to do it with me you can definitely do with anyone you can do it by yourself you can do it with a friend but that's the one thing that i can get behind you in terms of like you not having fulfilled your destiny yet and that you're destined for something greater 100 i'm with you so be bigger do more go outside of gaming i think it's like i think you've got to do that i think it's you're gifted and i don't know that anyone else can do what you're supposed to do and at the same time if you're having trouble in your romantic relationships if you find yourself crossing 30 and wondering maybe you do want to settle down and you find yourself like recognizing that you're looking for short-term things but that there's a part of you that may want longer-term things now you've got to be careful because there's a part of your mind that is going to tell you that short-term things are better than long-term things and if i had to give you one piece of advice toast it would be be careful about what's better for you and what you want and be careful about your mind convincing you that's that what is better for you is what you want because those are actually two different things and as long as you believe as long as you do what's better for you i don't think i think it's going to be really hard for you to fall in love because love isn't better for you it's [ __ ] dumb it's foolish and it's dangerous and it's risky and it can hurt you and it can hurt them but you know sometimes you got to make that deck that's all legendaries because it's not about making the best deck like [ __ ] the meta that's about the memes maybe maybe one day if i feel like with like mental health and stuff just like coming on the show like these conversation helped nudge me in the right direction but at the end of the day the subject needs to you know they gotta want to like fix something about themselves so like change their way of thinking right yep so i apologized once for pushing you because i felt like i was leading instead of following i'm happy to do it again i think you're right i don't think you want to what i'm saying is that if one day you change your mind you know and you're looking for some kind of support shoot me a dm just gotta send me a message i'm ready to love dr k uh yeah give it a give it a couple more years like i said once you cross 30 let me know if you change your mind because i don't think there's anything wrong with what you're doing now for the record i think it's just if you decide that you want to do things differently that can have another conversation about it and i apologize for imposing my own value system it it took me a little while to figure out where you were where you are and that maybe where i want you to be is like that's where i want you to be but it's not where you are and it's not where you want to be which is like my mistake so i'm sorry for that no no worries yeah i think uh i'm very stubborn like i am very confident in the way i think sometimes to a fault like to a point of stubbornness and uh yeah oh probably it usually takes me like a while to slowly like think about it from other angles um but like conversation like this is really helpful because it makes me think you know let's maybe think about it from another angle just even as a thought experimentation so yeah think about love and relationships a little more yeah one last thing is think about do you have one foot out the door or do you only ever put one foot in i think you're right i do just put one foot in yeah so it it all right so why won't you put put both feet in uh just think about it too risky not to me but to the other person yeah i mean this anyway maybe we can because then i i just like i i want to wrap this up but it's just too juicy yeah you know you're baiting me into playing a twisting nether before you like do something else it's like that's what i feel like it's like i'm gonna spend all my entire turn eight mana to just wipe your board and it's like so juicy this was a good talk yeah man thank you very much um i you know i i hope that this ends up okay for you you know if you have any kind of negative fallout or anything like that please let us know um so far knock on wood hasn't happened yet but you know sometimes people reveal things people will troll them things like that we'd love to help you clean up a mess that we created um and i'm sorry that i didn't quite listen to you as well as i i could have i don't know i i felt like you did fine like i think um part of like it's because it's hard to just like talk to a person and have like to try and figure out certain things off what you see online so um i mean it didn't feel like you said anything that warrants any kind of uh second guesses or apologies i felt really comfortable okay [Music] yeah it was uh good times i like i like talking about dreamer life no so i mean it doesn't have to be like a dr k session like if you ever want to just have me come on and talk about like the mindset of a streamer or whatever so i'm always very open to it sure sure i'm hearing it you i'm hearing you say you're open to it but i'm confused about whether there's an invitation there or not uh i mean i'm really lazy so [Music] i don't normally reach out but like if you have because i don't know what other like segments you do but if you ever do a segment that needs a streaming expert or uh anything that you think i would be a good fit for then yes i would be happy to come on and give my two cents if you even want that not that i'm inviting myself to spread my ingeniosity around i feel like this is another one foot in the door one foot out the door kind of thing i just don't know what else you have going on no so but but here's here's i i i'm honestly toast i'm just confused so like do you think that we there's an important conversation that needs to be because i'm i'm i'm getting signals from you but the words don't seem to be matching up so are what i'm hearing from you is that there are a lot of important things about being a streamer which need to be talked about is that correct yeah yes like streamer problems like when some streamers complain about oh yeah i read a bad comment in chat and make me really sad i see them get like blackboard because it's like bro you're making money playing video games why are you focusing on one negative comment when there's so much positive comments and like it just conditioned these streamers to oh god better not complain about anything then um i like uh talking about those stuff okay because my friends go through it and okay sure yeah okay i i i understand now thank you for thank you very much for explaining that and and i i'm also hearing you also there's another message that i'm hearing in that is that this isn't going to be a conversation between dr k and jeremy this is going to be a conversation between two streamers about mental health related stuff yeah yeah right it's a it's like commentary about the industry as opposed to a personal conversation yeah uh 100 i feel like okay i got most of the things i want to talk about out with this session yep i'm hearing the same thing thank you so much for clarifying yeah i'm totally down like i don't know what that looks like or how that looks but i'm totally interested in talking about the scene and the industry as well um because i find it fascinating so yeah cool yeah well thanks for coming on toast um you know we'll i get that you're lazy and then you know we may we may reach out to you and then i don't know how often we should reach out to you and then i don't know how much time has passed before you feel bad reaching back out to us but you can you know if we send you a message next week and you don't do anything about it for six months feel free to message us after six months no big deal and uh if we're hammer messaging you just like let us know and we'll back off so thanks a lot dude and good luck um good luck with your collabs it sounds like you're helping a lot of people grow and stuff like that so more power to you i know i've personally heard a lot of awesome things about um you being in other people's lives and that a lot of people really appreciate you for who you are so thank you for doing that happy to the yeah thank you thank you for having me on um i appreciate your time and what you do for not just me but a lot of my friends and i mean this maybe just ties back to like the way i think but like the biggest thing you did for me was wasn't this is what you did for like yvonne and lily and scara and pokey and michael and you know that's really important because they are not as um good at expressing their emotions and uh i thought your platform was very very important to them so okay yeah i appreciate that yeah it was it was my pleasure i i love talking to each and every one of those people because you all have a really amazing crew at otv really solid folks so thank you take care toast all right good talk bye bye everyone very well all right toe stars yeah so that was uh

Channel: HealthyGamerGG

Views: 449,455

Rating: 4.9592547 out of 5

Keywords: mental health, drk, dr kanojia, healthygamergg, healthy gamer gg, twitch, psychiatrist

Id: QBIgu3sv96Y

Length: 177min 18sec (10638 seconds)

Published: Thu May 13 2021

Reddit Comments

[u/Animostas]

This was a really confusing conversation to listen to, I wasn't really able to follow the conversation a lot of the time. It felt like Toast might not have been ready to come on. I hope he was still able to get something out of it though.

[u/RamRam2484]

He didn't really want to be there, so kind of pointless. It's way more powerful when the guest has a sense of urgency and actually needs help.

[u/OverlyThought]

I think the comparison between the conversation with Toast and Charlie 8 months ago, is very interesting. Because Charlie talked about sharing himself with others and the conversation was the complete other end of the spectrum in a lot of what he was saying. Charlie comes at it from the angle of what he himself would enjoy, while toast comes at his content with the angle of what would other people enjoy. Not really making any claims, I just think having seen the two interviews I noticed the antonymity. Doctor K seemed impressed with Charlie’s attitude and concerned with Toast’s angle. Both very successful streamers who seem happy with how they are operating though.

[u/RyanAwol77]

I like how every difficult conversations, Toast would spin it to make himself a hero or a victim (whichever gets more sympathy or positive reaction from the audience). It's pretty creepy.

I do like his streams though so please don't hate this stranger in this public post in a public thread online.

[u/Pontoonpanda]

This was a really eye-opening conversation. I think it's really brave to air your therapy session like this. The audience learns and can relate to a lot, but I also think there's much of this that may be better explored confidentially between a client and their therapist.

From an outside perspective, it really feels like K finds the crux of Toast's walls by showing how he is living behind a persona. Which is really sad and frankly troubling if he wants deep relationships with people. Especially in tandem with Toast's illusions of grandeur. K picked up on this, but didn't want to dig deeper because he can't help someone if they aren't looking to problem solve. I think a saving grace in this situation is that Toast seems pretty self-aware, and can acknowledge weak spots in his behavior. I sincerely hope Toast can learn from this and seeks the help he needs.