[MUSIC] >> Doug: HELLO AND WELCOME ONCE AGAIN TO "FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE" LOCATED AT THE BUSY INTERSECTION OF FAITH AND REASON. I'M DOUG KECK YOUR HOST RIGHT HERE AT THE EWTN STUDIOS ON THE MOTHER SHIP, IRONDALE, ALABAMA WHERE IT ALL BEGAN IN 1981. MOTHER ANGELICA, HER MISSION WAS GIVEN TO HER AND WE CARRY ON HOPEFULLY EVERY WEEK, EVERYDAY HERE AT THE NETWORK 24/7. WE DEPEND ON YOUR FEED BACK AND SUPPORT. WE NEED YOUR EMAILS, SO, CHECK US OUT ON FACEBOOK, TWITTER, AND ALL THINGS FATHER SPITZER, THERE'S A WONDERFUL SITE, CALLED magiscenter.com AND THE crediblecatholic.com WEB SITE. CHECK THAT ONE OUT. AND DON'T FORGET ABOUT THE WONDERFUL EVENT, EWTN FAMILY CELEBRATION COMING UP IN DENVER, COLORADO. EWTN ewtn.com/FAMILY EVENT AND FATHER SPITZER TRIED TO MAKE IT BUT HE CAN'T COME. WE'LL GET HIM ONE OF THESE DAYS. AND WE HAVE THE LATEST BOOK COMING OUT WITH EWTN PUBLISHING, FATHER MALADY, "THE DECALOGUE DECODED" AND IN SOME WAYS, MAYBE THAT'S SURPRISING BUT IT SHOULDN'T BE. SO, WE'RE JOINING YOU AGAIN WITH FATHER SPITZER, TURNING OUT ON THE COAST AND WE CAN START OFF WITH A PRAYER, TALKING A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE NAPA EVENT AIRING IN JUST A COUPLE OF EVENTS, THE ONE THAT WE TAPED OUT THERE. GO AHEAD. >> Father: IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, SON, AND HOLY SPIRIT. ON THIS FEAST OF ST. IGNATIUS OF LOYOLA, WE ASK FOR YOUR GRACE TO BE COMPLETELY OPEN TO YOUR WITH WILL -- TO YOUR WILL TO FOLLOW THAT IN ACTS OF SURRENDER WE MAY INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF SALVATION, THE SALVATION TO WHICH YOU LEAD US. OPEN OUR MINDS AND HEARTS THIS DAY AND SEND YOUR HOLY SPIRIT DOWN UPON US SO THAT DOUG, MYSELF, AND OUR WHOLE AUDIENCE MAY BENEFIT FROM WHAT WE DO. INSPIRE US, PROTECT US, GUIDE US SO THAT EVERYTHING WE DO MAY BUILD YOUR KINGDOM, CHURCH, AND YOUR PEOPLE, THROUGH JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD. AMEN. MARY, SEAT OF WISDOM, AND ST. IGNATIUS OF LOYOLA, PRAY FOR US. IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, AND OF THE SON, AND OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. AMEN. >> Doug: RIGHT. WE HAD A CHANCE, YOU AS THE PRESIDENT OF THE NAPA INSTITUTE OUT THERE, STARTED BY YOURSELF AND TIM BUSH, JOHN MYER, JUST A GREAT CROWD OUT THERE FOR SUPPORT OF EWTN, STEVE BEAUMONT OUT THERE TO BE SURE IT WAS RECORDED AND I TAPED A COUPLE OF BOOK INTERVIEWS THAT PEOPLE WILL LOOK FORWARD TO HOPEFULLY. AND WE WERE ABLE TO DO OUR FIRST, LIVE, 0 ON LOCATION FATHER SPITZER SHOW. AND HOPEFULLY WE'LL DO MORE IN THE FUTURE. IT WAS GREAT, WE HAD GREAT QUESTIONS FROM THE MEMBERS OF THE AUDIENCE THERE. >> RIGHT, LIKE, 25 OF THEM, BOOM, BOOM, BOOM, RIGHT IN A ROW! IT WAS REALLY TERRIFIC. >> AND IT WORKED OUT WELL. SO, WE'RE GOING TO BE AIRING THAT IN THE FUTURE AND THE SHOW ITSELF IS GOING TO AIR IN JUST A COUPLE OF WEEKS. LET'S GET TO THE QUESTIONS, THE TOPIC IS HELL, PART 3. WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THIS FOR A COUPLE OF WEEKS. WE HAD A QUESTION FROM A PREVIOUS SHOW. >> FR. SPITZER, MY WIFE WAS RECENTLY GRANTED AN ANNULMENT FROM HER PREVIOUS MARRIAGE. WE CAN NOW BE MARRIED IN THE CHURCH AND BEGIN RECEIVING THE SACRAMENTS, STARTING WITH CONFESSION. ANULLMENTS ARE NOT MENTIONED IN THE BIBLE, SO HOW DOES THE ANULLMENT MAKE IT ACCEPTABLE TO RECEIVE COMMUNION? TIMOTHY. >> Father: WELL, TIMOTHY, YOU ARE RIGHT, ANNULMENTS ARE NOT MENTIONED, BUT WHAT IS MENTIONED IN THE NEW TESTAMENT BY JESUS WHERE HE SORT OF ESCALATES THE MOSAIC CODE, MARRIAGE IS A PERMANENT COMMITMENT. ONCE A PERSON IS MARRIED, THEN, THEY ARE MARRIED TO SOMEONE FOREVER. NOW, OF COURSE, THIS DEPENDS ON THE ABILITY OF THE PERSON TO MAKE A COMMITMENT. THAT'S CALLED THE FREEDOM TO MAKE A COMMITMENT. SECONDLY, IT'S ALSO THEIR ABILITY -- OR NOT EVEN ABILITY BUT WILLINGNESS TO REMAIN PERMANENTLY COMMITTED TO ONE ANOTHER AND THERE'S NO IMPEDIMENT TO THE FREE USE OF THEIR WILL IN MAKING THIS COMMITMENT WHEN THEY DO SO. BECAUSE ANYONE OF THOSE THREE FACTORS COULD UNDERMINE THE COMMITMENT ITSELF. THEREFORE, THE PERMANENCY OF THE COMMITMENT. AND FIRST OF ALL, WHAT'S IN THE BIBLE THAT MARRIAGE, RIGHT, IS A PERMANENT COMMITMENT. IT'S EXCLUSIVE, INDISSOLUBLE WHEN IT IS DONE IN TRUE FREEDOM AND THE WILL IS THERE TO MAKE IT A PERMANENT COMMITMENT. NOW, WHAT HAPPENS OF COURSE IS MANY PEOPLE ARE VERY IMMATURE SOMETIMES. MANY PEOPLE ALSO MAY BE ADDICTED TO SOMETHING AND IT'S NOT APPARENT HOW THAT'S GOING TO EFFECT THEIR ABILITY TO MAKE A PERMANENT COMMITMENT. SOME PEOPLE ACTUALLY DO NOT WILL TO MAKE, EVEN THOUGH THEY SAY, RIGHT, IN THE MIDDLE OF THE CEREMONY WHEN THE PRIEST ASKS THEM, HAVE YOU COME HERE FREELY AND WITHOUT RESERVATION TO GIVE TO EACH OTHER IN MARRIAGE. THEY ARE BASICALLY HOLDING BACK SOMETHING OR THEY REALLY DON'T INTEND TO MAKE IT A PERMANENT COMMITMENT. IN OTHER WORDS, THEIR DESIRE IS TO DIVORCE AT THE FIRST SIGN OF TROUBLE. AND THEY ARE SITTING THERE SAYING, I DO. BUT AT THE SAME TIME, THEY ARE REALLY NOT COMMITTED. SO, WHAT THE CHURCH DOES, IT DOES HAVE A BASIC PROCESS AND NORMALLY INITIATED THROUGH A TRIBUNAL WHERE THEY TRY TO DETERMINE, WAS THAT PERSON REALLY FREE TO MAKE A COMMITMENT, WERE THEY REALLY FREE OF MAYBE ADDICTIONS OR SOME OTHER IMPEDIMENT. SECONDLY, DID THEY REALLY HAVE THE WILL TO MAKE THIS A PERMANENT COMMITMENT IN THE FIRST PLACE. OR DID THEY NOT EVEN HAVE THE SUFFICIENT KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT A PERMANENT COMMITMENT MIGHT BE. OR, MAYBE THEY WERE ACTUALLY PLANNING ALREADY THE DIVORCE AT THE FIRST SIGN OF TROUBLE SITTING THERE SAYING, IN THE WEDDING CEREMONY, THAT THEY ARE FREE TO MARRY AND COMING HERE WITHOUT RESERVATION TO COMMIT THEMSELVES TO ONE ANOTHER WITH A PERMANENT COMMITMENT. SO, THE POINT IS, ONCE THE DETERMINATION WAS MADE, IF YOU WERE REALLY FREE AND YOU REALLY DID HAVE THE WILL TO MAKE THAT COMMITMENT, THEN IT'S INDISSOLUBLE. IT'S THE MARRIAGE AND YOU CAN ALWAYS DIVORCE, BUT YOU CAN'T GET REMARRIED AFTER THAT DIVORCE AND RECEIVE COMMUNION. HOWEVER, IF THE CHURCH DETERMINES THAT THERE WAS A PROBLEM, THAT THERE WAS SOME MITIGATING CIRCUMSTANCE, THAT THERE WAS SOME IMPEDIMENT TO FREEDOM OR THERE WAS A RESERVATION TO THE PERMANENCY OF THE COMMITMENT, INDISSOLUBILITY OF THE MARRIAGE, THEN THE CHURCH DETERMINES THAT THE MARRIAGE COMMITMENT WAS NOT PERMANENT, DIDN'T EXIST. THEREFORE, YOU COULD GO AHEAD AND GET REMARRIED AFTER A DIVORCE LEGITIMATELY. AND THEN, BE ABLE TO RECEIVE HOLY COMMUNION. AND YOU DO NEED TO GO THROUGH THE ANNULMENT PROCEDURE. AND AS YOU KNOW, POPE FRANCIS SHORTENED A LOT OF THE STEPS IN THAT PROCEDURE IN MANY RESPECTS AND GIVEN SOME RULES THAT WILL SPEED UP THE PROCESS, WHICH I THINK PROBABLY ARE GOOD THINGS TO HELP PEOPLE FACILITATE A REMARRIAGE IF THERE WAS A REAL PROBLEM. >> Doug: LET ME ASK YOU A QUESTION ON THAT TOO. I THINK THAT PEOPLE IN THE WESTERN CIVILIZATION, CERTAINLY IN THE UNITED STATES' CULTURE, YOU KNOW, GETTING AN ANNULMENT TAKES TIME. AND IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT TAKES AN INCREDIBLE AMOUNT OF TIME. IN THE OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD WE MAY NOT BE AWARE, IN SOUTH AMERICA AND OTHER PLACES LIKE THIS, WHERE THESE TYPE THINGS DRAGGED ON FOR YEARS. AND THINGS LIKE THAT. SO IT'S NOT THAT WE'RE LOOKING FOR IT TO BE SOME SORT OF EXPEDITIOUS THING, SEND IN YOUR CARD AND YOU GET AN ANNULMENT IN A WEEK, BUT ACTUALLY IT'S TO MOVE IT UP CLOSER TO WHAT SOME OF THE MORE MODERN COUNTRIES HAVE. >> Father: THAT'S RIGHT. AND THE REAL PROBLEM IN THE DEVELOPING COUNTRIES, YOU FREQUENTLY DON'T HAVE A TRIBUNAL AT ALL. SO, YOU ARE NEVER GOING TO GET AN AANNULMENT WITHOUT THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES. AND YOU KNOW, THINK THAT'S WHY POPE FRANCIS TRIED TO INTRODUCE OTHER MEASURES, IN A DEVELOPING COUNTRY, THAT WOULDN'T BE APPLICABLE TO U.S. OR EUROPE WHERE THE TRIBUNAL IS READILY AVAILABLE AND THE PARISH PRIEST CAN INITIATE THE ANNULMENT PROCESS WITH RELATIVELY EASY FACILITY. AND IN OTHER COUNTRIES, THERE MAY NOT EVEN BE A POSSIBILITY OF GETTING AN ANNULMENT WITHOUT A TRIBUNAL. >> AND I DO THINK THAT THERE'S AN HONEST ATTEMPT ON THE PART OF POPE FRANCIS TO DO THAT. OF COURSE, YOU HAVE TO BE EXTREMELY CAREFUL ABOUT THE MEANS THAT YOU USE, AS IT WERE, TO GRANT AN INTERNAL FORUM, PERMISSION TO RECEIVE SACRAMENTS WITHOUT A TRIBUNAL TO ASSESS THE FREEDOM OF THE OTHER PERSON. AND OTHERWISE, YOU COULD REALLY COMPROMISE WHAT THE LORD IS SAYING ABOUT THE INDISSOLUBILITY, THE PERMANENT COMMITMENT. SO, CERTAINLY, I THINK THAT POPE FRANCIS IS LOOKING INTO IT, OTHER PEOPLE REALLY TRYING TO MAKE CERTAIN THAT WHATEVER PROCEDURE WE TAKE TO RESOLVE SOME OF THESE OTHER PROBLEMS, IN THE DEVELOPING COUNTRIES THAT IT IS REALLY COMMENSURATE WITH WHAT THE LORD INTENDED, PERMANENCE, INDISSOLUBILITY AND EXCLUSIVITY OF THE MARITAL BOND AND MARITAL COMMITMENT. >> THE OTHER THING THAT STRUCK ME TOO IN THE REALM OF THIS. LET'S SAY SOMEBODY GOES FOR AN ANNULMENT, AND THEY SAY, WELL, I WAS PLANNING ON BEING MARRIED MY WHOLE LIFE AND IT DIDN'T WORK OUT, I WANT TO GET REMARRIED. AND I'LL TELL THEM WHATEVER THEY NEED TO HEAR, PSYCHOLOGICALLY, WHATEVER, LIMITATION THAT I HAD. IS THERE AT LEAST AN UNDERSTANDING THAT THE PERSON UNDERSTANDS THOUGH THE PRIEST OR THE TRIBUNAL CAN'T READ THE TRUTH IN YOUR HEART, SOME DAY AT THE END OF YOUR LIFE, YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO ANSWER FOR THOSE REMARKS. >> Father: RIGHT. IF YOU LIE TO THE PEOPLE IN THE TRIBUNAL, WELL, FOR ALL INTENSIVE PURPOSES, THAT ANNULMENT DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING. IT'S INVALID AND YOU ARE STILL PERMANENTLY MARRIED. AND YOU HAVEN'T SOLVED A PROBLEM. AND YOU HAVE A DECREE WHICH IS MEANINGLESS IN THE HEART OF GOD AND IN THE EYES OF GOD, AND HE KNOWS EXACTLY WHETHER OR NOT THAT ANNULMENT DECREE IS VALID OR NOT. AND EVEN THOUGH YOU MAY HAVE FOOLED EVERYBODY IN THE HUMAN SENSE OR HUMAN TRIBUNAL, YOU ARE CERTAINLY NOT FOOLING GOD. >> Doug: VERY GOOD. NEXT UP. HERE'S A BIT OF A CONUNDRUM FOR PEOPLE OUT THERE. AS AN EXTRAORDINARY MINISTER OF COMMUNION IN A NURSING HOME, I OBSERVED A NON-CATHOLIC CHRISTIAN DENIED COMMUNION. SHE DIDN'T UNDERSTAND WHY AND BECAME UPSET. IS IT OKAY FOR AN EXTRAORDINARY MINISTER TO INSTEAD PRAY OVER AN INDIVIDUAL ASKING OUR BLESSED MOTHER TO INTERCEDE WITH HER SON INTO HER SOUL AS A SPIRITUAL COMMUNION? SHOULD I HAVE JUST GIVEN HER THE HOST? AUDREY. >> Father: WELL, AUDREY, NO, DO NOT GIVE THAT PERSON THE HOST. OBVIOUSLY, THEY ARE NOT A MEMBER OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, NUMBER ONE. AND NUMBER TWO, THEY ARE NOT PROPERLY CATECHIZED TO KNOW, THIS IS THE, YOU ARE RECEIVING INTO YOU, NOT JUST THE BODY AND BLOOD OF OUR LORD, CERTAINLY THAT. BUT ALSO, HIS WHOLE PERSON, HIS WHOLE ENSOULED DIVINE PERSON WHO IS COMMUNICATING WITH YOU IN YOUR HEART. IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE THAT OR YOU HAVEN'T BEEN PROPERLY CATECHIZED ABOUT THAT, OR YOU ARE NOT A MEMBER OF THE CHURCH THAT BELIEVES THAT SUCH A CONSECRATION OF THESE HOSTS IS POSSIBLE, THEN THAT'S REALLY AN INAUTHENTIC KIND OF SPIRITUALITY AND AN INAUTHENTIC KIND OF ECUMENISMISM. AND YOU ABSOLUTELY DON'T WANT TO DO THAT. AND NOT THAT YOU GIVE THE IMPRESSION TO GIVE A PRIESTLY BLESSING, BUT JUST PRAYING OVER THE PERSON, AS YOU PUT IT, THAT'S PERFECT. AND PRAYING THROUGH THE INTERCESSION OF THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY ASKING FOR THE HELP OF THE ANGELS FOR THIS PERSON, ASKING FOR THE HELP OF THE HOLY SPIRIT FOR THIS PERSON. ALL OF THOSE PRAYERS, AND PRAYING OVER A PERSON IS PERFECTLY VALID AND CONSOLING. BUT YOU HAVE TO SAY, REALLY, IN ORDER TO RECEIVE HOLY EUCHARIST, YOU SHOULD BE A MEMBER OF THE CHURCH, THAT LINEAGE TO CONSECRATE THE HOST AND IN WHICH YOU ARE PROPERLY CATECHIZED WHO AND WHAT THIS IS THAT YOU ARE RECEIVING INTO YOU. >> Doug: AND IT'S NOT JUST A SYMBOL, YOU ARE COMMITTING TO THAT WHEN YOU SAY, AMEN. >> EXACTLY. AND WE JUST READ THE RECENT PUGH SURVEY, YIKES. 50% OF CATHOLICS DON'T EVEN BELIEVE OR KNOW THAT THE HOLY EUCHARIST IS THE REAL PRESENCE OF JESUS CHRIST. ARE YOU KIDDING ME? BUT THAT'S WHAT THE DATA SHOWS. SO, YOU KNOW, ONE MORE SHOCKING TURN OF EVENTS. >> Doug: WELL, WE'VE DONE A GOOD JOB TO COME DEGREE TEACHING PEOPLE THAT IT IS, MORE SO THAN WHAT WAS TAUGHT TO THEM. NOW, HERE'S ANOTHER QUESTION WE HAVE. DEAR FR. SPITZER, GOD BLESS YOUR WORK. REGARDING OUR CREED, COULD YOU PLEASE EXPLAIN THE MEANING OF "...BEGOTTEN, NOT MADE; CONSUBSTANTIAL WITH THE FATHER"? ALSO, HOW DOES THIS RELATE TO THE HOLY SPIRIT? THANK YOU, ROSEMARIE IN PENNSYLVANIA. REMEMBER, THAT CHANGE WAS MADE A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO. >> Father: YEAH, RIGHT. FIRST OF ALL, THE WORD BEGOTTEN CAN GIVE PEOPLE SOME TROUBLE BECAUSE THE TERM IN SOME RESPECTS ACTUALLY MEANS MADE OR BORN OF. AND THAT'S A COMMON INTERPRETATION. BUT IN MOST CREEDAL STATEMENTS, NOTICE THAT IT IS ETERNALLY BEGOTTEN. SO, ETERNALLY BEGOTTEN IS VERY DIFFERENT FROM NOT ETERNALLY BEGOTTEN, TEMPORALLY BEGOTTEN. SO, THAT'S OKAY, HE WAS BORN OF THIS PERSON OR MADE OR CREATED BY THIS PERSON. BUT IN OUR CREEDAL STATEMENTS, WE HAVE ETERNALLY BEGOTTEN, NOT MADE, CONSUBSTANTIAL. FIRST OF ALL, THAT MEANS THAT HE IS, AS IT WERE, IF HE IS CONSUBSTANTIAL WITH THE FATHER, THAT MEANS, HIS SUBSTANCE IS THE SAME. IT DOESN'T JUST MEAN WITH. YEAH, CON CAN MEAN WITH, IN MANY RESPECTS. BUT IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE AND IN MANY OTHER CASES, CONSUBSTANTIAL ALSO MEANS, AS IT WERE, EQUIVALENT IN SUBSTANCE TO THE FATHER. NOW, THE WORD SUBSTANCE, DON'T THINK OF IT AS SORT OF MATTER, OR GOO, AS WE FREQUENTLY THINK OF IT IN COMMON SENSE TERMS. SUBSTANCE IS A BIG ARISTOTELIAN METAPHYSICALLY MEANS BEING. EQUIVALENT IN BEING. EQUIVALENT IN NATURE TO THE FATHER. SO, WE WANT TO BE SURE THAT WE GET TWO ERRORS OUT OF THE CREEDAL STATEMENT. SO, MOST USE ETERNALLY BEGOTTEN. AND THAT MAKES IT VERY CLEAR. ETERNALLY RISING, ARISING THROUGH THE FATHER. OR ETERNALLY, AS IT WERE, IN RELATIONSHIP TO THE FATHER. THAT DOES NOT MEAN, MADE, OR CREATED OR BEGOTTEN IN THE TEMPORAL SENSE OF BEING BORN OF. THAT'S THE FIRST THING. AND BY THE WAY, THAT CLARIFICATION WAS HARD WON! A LOT OF PEOPLE MISINTERPRETED CHAPTER 1 OF THE LETTER TO THE HEBREWS AND OTHER KINDS OF CREEDAL STATEMENTS. LET'S FACE FACTS. IF YOU LOOK BASICALLY AT THE PHILIPPIANS 2 HYMN, WHERE IT SAYS, THOUGH JESUS, THOUGH THE SON, WAS IN THE FORM OF GOD. FORM MEANING THE NATURE OF GOD, HE DID NOT DEEM. AND THIS IS WHAT WE SAID BEFORE, EQUALITY WITH GOD. THAT'S A BIG, HUGE THING. TO BE EQUAL TO GOD. I THINK IT'S [FOREIGN WORDS] IN GREEK, RIGHT? THAT'S THE IDEA OF TO BE EQUAL TO GOD. THAT PRETTY MUCH TELLS YOU, HE'S SHARING IN THE FATHER'S DIVINE, INFINITE, UNRESTRICTED NATURE. SO, HE DID NOT DEEM EQUALITY WITH GOD SOMETHING TO BE HELD ON TO. BUT RATHER, EMPTIED HIMSELF TAKING THE FORM OF A SLAVE. SO, ALL OF THESE THINGS ARE DONE WITH PARTICIPLES WHICH INDICATES THAT HE RETAINS THE DIVINE NATURE WHEN HE BECOMES HUMAN. AGAIN, IF WE LOOK AT THE JOHN HYMN IN 9:1, IF WE LOOK CLEARLY IN THE FIRST PART OF JOHN'S GOSPEL, THE SAME ASSERTION THAT JESUS, IN THE BEGINNING. THE BEGINNING DOES NOT MEAN TEMPORAL BEGINNING. IT'S AN ARCHAI, AND THAT CAN MEAN, AS SOURCE. YOU DON'T SAY IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD. YOU CAN SAY, AS SOURCE, WAS THE WORD. AND THE WORD OF COURSE REFERS TO THE SON. IT REFERS TO JESUS. IT REFERS TO THE THOUGHT OF THE THINKER AS IT WERE. IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD, AND THE WORD WAS [GREEK TERM] WAS TOWARD GOD. IN OTHER WORDS, IT'S NOT JUST, I KNOW WE TRANSLATE IT AND THE WORD WAS, WITH GOD. BUT IT'S REALLY [FOREIGN WORD] ORIENTED TOWARD THE FATHER, IN RELATIONSHIP WITH THE FATHER. AND RIGHT? THEN IT SAYS, THE WORD WAS GOD. RIGHT. ONCE YOU SEE THAT ASSERTION OF IS, OR WAS, RIGHT. ONCE YOU HAVE THAT, IT'S CLEAR THAT THERE'S EQUIVALENCY IN SUBSTANCE. SO, BACK TO YOUR QUESTION. AND THE ANSWER TO IT IS, BEGOTTEN MEANS REALLY ETERNALLY BEGOTTEN, TO SAY, HE IS IN CONTINUOUS AND ETERNAL RELATIONSHIP WITH THE FATHER AS THE ONE WHO IS THE RECIPIENT OF THE FATHER'S LOVE. AND SO, HE'S SECOND IN THE RELATIONSHIP BUT NOT SECOND IN GENERATION. NOT SECOND IN BEING, QUOTE, UNQUOTE, MADE OR CREATED. AND HE'S NOT CREATED AT ALL. HE'S ETERNALLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER, CONSUBSTANTIAL. HE'S THE SAME BEING OR NATURE OR SUBSTANCE AS THE FATHER WHICH IS THE INFINITE OR UNRESTRICTED DIVINE NATURE OR BEING. >> Doug: AND ALSO ASKED, SO WHERE DOES THE HOLY SPIRIT FIT INTO THIS? >> Father: OH. WELL. HE IS, AS IT WERE, A THIRD RELATIONSHIP WITHIN THAT TRINITY. SO, YOU MIGHT RECALL AN ANALOGY I USED A LONG TIME AGO IN SOME PREVIOUS PROGRAM. I KNOW NOT WHAT. BUT IN ANY CASE, I SAID, THINK OF THE PERSONS OF THE TRINITY AS ACTS OF SELF-CONSCIOUSNESS. OKAY. SO, REMEMBER. I CAN SAY, OKAY. I'M AWARE OF THIS CUP. BUT I'M ALSO AWARE OF BEING AWARE OF THE CUP. SO, I CAN BE AWARE OF MY AWARENESS. AND NOT ONLY THAT, I CAN ACTUALLY BE AWARE OF BEING AWARE OF MY AWARENESS. I CAN BE AWARE OF BEING AWARE OF MYSELF. ONCE I CAN DO THAT TRIPLE REFLECTIONIVE, RIGHT. I'M GETTING MYSELF, AS IT WERE, ONCE I DO THAT, I HAVE MY OWN INNER UNIVERSE AND I EVEN HAVE REFLECTIVE GRASP OVER MY REFLECTIVE GRASP OF MY INNER UNIVERSE. IT'S AN AMAZING THING THAT WE HAVE. RIGHT? SO, GOD, THESE THREE PERSONS, THREE SELF-CONSCIOUSNESSES, WHAT ARE THEY DOING? THEY ARE MAKING UNCONDITIONAL USE OF ONE, AND ONLY ONE, DIVINE SUBSTANCE, RIGHT? ONE AND ONLY ONE DIVINE POWER. THE ONE AND ONLY ONE DIVINE NATURE. AND WHY CAN THERE ONLY BE ONE? BECAUSE RECALL, IF YOU HAVE AN INFINITE BEING, YOU CAN ONLY HAVE ONE INFINITE BEING. BECAUSE IF YOU POSTULATE HAD TWO INFINITE BEINGS, THEN ONE OF THEM WOULD HAVE TO HAVE SOMETHING, BE SOMETHING, OR BE SOMEWHERE, OR BE IN ANOTHER DIMENSION THAT THE OTHER ONE WAS NOT WHICH MAKES THE OTHER ONE NOT INFINITE. IT MAKES THE OTHER ONE FINITE. IN OTHER WORDS, HOW CAN IT BE INFINITE IF IT'S NOT SOMEWHERE. HOW CAN IT BE INFINITE IF IT'S NOT SOMETHING. HOW CAN IT BE INFINITE IF IT DOESN'T HAVE SOMETHING? HOW CAN IT BE INFINITE IF IT'S NOT IN A PARTICULAR DIMENSION. THE MINUTE YOU POSTULATE THAT, YOU POSTULATE A CONTRADICTION. IT'S A FINITE INFINITE, NO GOOD. THE CHURCH KNEW THAT VERY EARLY ON. THESE WERE NOT STUPID PEOPLE WHO ARE COMING UP WITH THE DOCTRINES, RIGHT? SO THEY KNEW, YOU CAN ONLY HAVE ONE, AND ONLY ONE, INFINITE SUBSTANCE. YOU CAN ONLY HAVE ONE AND ONE INFINITE POWER OR NATURE. AND SO IF THAT'S THE CASE, THE THREE PERSONS, THREE SELF CONSCIOUSNESS' SHARE UNCONDITIONALLY IN THE ONE INFINITE, UNRESTRICTED POWER, NATURE, SUBSTANCE. NOW, THESE THREE BEINGS, WHAT ARE THEY DOING? THEY ARE IN LOVE WITH EACH OTHER. SO WHEN WE TALK ABOUT GOD BEING LOVE. THIS IS NOT LIKE PIN THE TAIL ON THE DONKEY. GOD IS LOVE. HERE'S AN ATTRIBUTE THAT WE TACK ON TO GOD. THIS IS NOT WHAT IT IS. OF COURSE, YOU CAN SAY THAT OF GOD. GOD IS LOVE AND YOU CAN SAY, IT'S AN ATTRIBUTE OF GOD. NO QUESTION ABOUT IT. BUT CHRISTIANITY, ACCORDING TO JESUS' OWN REVELATION GOES MUCH FURTHER. HE SAYS, THERE'S INTERPERSONAL LOVE GOING ON IN THE TRINITY. SO, WHAT IS HAPPENING? WHAT'S LOVE? LOVE IS ESSENTIALLY A GIFT OF SELF. A GIFT OF ONE'S WHOLE PERSONHOOD OVER TO ANOTHER PERSON. SO, THINK ABOUT YOUR CHILDREN AND HOW YOU LOVE THEM. THINK ABOUT YOUR SPOUSE AND HOW YOU LOVE THEM. WHEN YOU LOVE THEM UNCONDITIONALLY, YOU JUST WANT TO GIVE YOUR WHOLE SELF OVER TO THEM. AND IN AN ACT OF PURE EMPATHY THAT'S COMPLETELY DISPOSED OF DOING THE GOOD FOR THEM. SO, THE FATHER, WHAT WE CALL, YOU KNOW, THE FIRST GENERATION, NOT GENERATION BUT THE FIRST RELATIONSHIP WITHIN THIS INTERRELATIONSHIP IN GOD, THIS INTERRELATED LOVE IN GOD. SO, THE FATHER FIRST, AS IT WERE, LOVES THE SON. NOW, IT'S NOT FIRST IN TIME. IT'S JUST THAT HE IS THE LOVER WHO LOVES THE BELOVED. THAT'S WHO HE IS. THAT'S HIS PLACE IN THE RELATIONSHIP, IF I CAN CALL IT THAT, WITH OF COURSE, QUOTATION REMARKS, SCARE MARKS AROUND THE PLACE BECAUSE IT'S NOT A SPATIAL PLACE. I'M JUST USING THIS METAPHORICALLY. SO, THE FATHER IS THE ONE THAT LOVES THE BELOVED, THAT IS TO SAY, THE SON. WHO IS THE SON? THE SON IS THE RECEIVER OF THE LOVE OF THE FATHER WHO GIVES IT BACK. HE GIVES THE LOVE BACK BECAUSE HE HAS RECEIVED THE LOVE OF THE FATHER. HE GIVES LOVE BACK TO THE FATHER. AND THEN THE FATHER IS THE RECEIVER. SO, WE COULD CALL THE FATHER, BASICALLY THE GIVER-RECEIVER. AND WE CAN CALL THE SON, RECEIVER, GIVE. BECAUSE HE'S THE ONE THAT RECEIVES. SO, IN THE QUESTION, THAT IS, TO SAY, THE RECEIVER TAKES THE UNITY BETWEEN THE FATHER AND THE SON. SO, JUST LIKE PARENTS, TOGETHER, LOVE THEIR CHILDREN, AND IT'S THE UNITY OF THE PARENTS, RIGHT, OF COURSE, THEY LOVE THEIR CHILDREN INDIVIDUALLY. BUT ALSO, THERE'S A UNITY OF THEM THAT THE CHILD PERCEIVES FROM THE VERY BEGINNING. SO, THAT UNITY OF THE FATHER AND THE SON IS GIVEN AWAY TO THE HOLY SPIRIT. AND THE HOLY SPIRIT THEN IS THE RECEIVER FIRST OF THE LOVE COMING FROM THE UNITY OF THE FATHER AND THE SON. AND THEN, WHAT DOES HE DO? HE RECEIVES THAT LOVE FROM THE UNITY OF THE FATHER AND THE SON. HE GIVES IT BACK TO THE UNITY OF THE FATHER AND THE SON WHICH MEANS, OF COURSE, YOU HAVE THIS TRIPLE ACT OF GIFT OF SELF WHICH CONSTITUTES AND COMPLETES THIS INTERPERSONAL LOVE WITHIN THE TRINITY. AND IT'S JUST PERFECT. THEY ARE DIFFERENT IN RELATION, THEY ARE DIFFERENT IN THE FACT THAT THEY ARE DIFFERENT SELF CONSCIOUSNESSES PARTICIPATING IN THE RELATIONSHIP. BUT THAT'S WHAT THE HOLY SPIRIT DOES. NOW, WHEN WE APPLY -- THAT'S WHAT WE CALL THE IMMINENT TRINITY. THAT'S WHAT THE TRINITY, WHAT THEY ARE DOING IN THEMSELVES. THEY ARE LOVING ONE ANOTHER, GIVING THEMSELVES TO ONE ANOTHER IN A PERFECT ACT OF UNCONDITIONAL AND TIMELESS UNCONDITIONAL LOVE. THAT'S WHAT THEY DO WITHIN THEMSELVES. NOW, THAT HOLY TRINITY CAN GO OUT INTO THE WORLD, AS YOU KNOW, THE SON IS THE ONE WHO COMES INTO OUR MIDST AS THE INCARNATE ONE. AND WE KNOW THAT HE GIVES US THE HOLY SPIRIT TO CONTINUE THE WORK OF SALVATION. SO, EACH OF THE PERSONS OF THE TRINITY, THE FATHER WITH RESPECT TO CREATION, THE SON WITH RESPECT TO INCARNATION, THE HOLY SPIRIT WITH RESPECT TO THE DYNAMIC ACT OF CONTINUING THE FACT OF SALVATION THROUGH THE MYSTICAL BODY WHICH IS THE SON. EVERY ONE OF THEM HAS A DIFFERENT DIMENSION TO PLAY WITHIN WHAT WE CALL THE ECONOMY OF SALVATION. SO, THAT'S BASICALLY THE SHORT ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION. YOU CAN ALWAYS GIVE AN ENTIRE COURSE ON THE HOLY TRINITY TO TRY TO EXPLAIN THEM AND YOU ARE LIKELY TO HAVE SEVERAL HERESIES AS YOU ARE DOING SO! I HOPE I AVOIDED MOST OF THEM! >> Doug: OKAY. OKAY. WELL, WE'LL GET BACK TO YOU ON THAT. BUT THAT WAS PRETTY GOOD AND SUCCINCT THERE. ONE QUESTION AS WE COME UP ON A BREAK, IT HAS TO DO WITH THE CREED. HI, FATHER, WHEN RECITING THE CREED, WHY DO WE SOMETIMES SAY THAT CHRIST "DESCENDED TO THE DEAD," AND OTHER TIMES SAY HE "DESCENDED TO HELL"? THANK YOU, CATHERINE. SO, OF COURSE, THIS IS THE NICENE CREED AS OPPOSED TO THE APOSTLES CREED. >> TO BE HONEST, THE ARAMAIC TERM, EVEN HEBREW IS SHEOUL, AND MEANS THE REALMS OF THE DEAD. AND THIS IS HOW WE GOT THE BIBLE, THE BIBLE INITIALLY WRITTEN -- I MEAN, THERE'S AN ARAMAIC BACKGROUND OF THE BIBLE. MANY, MANY TRADITIONS OF THE BIBLE, EITHER WRITTEN IN OR GIVEN IN ORAL TRADITION, A VERY STRONG ORAL TRADITION IN ARAMAIC. TRANSLATED INTO GREEK. AND WHAT'S THAT, SHEOUL COME INTO? AS HADES. IT COULD REFER TO THE REALM OF THE DEAD. SHEOUL AND IT COULD REFER TO THE DOMAIN OF DEMONS AND THE DOMAIN OF THE ETERNALLY LOST WHO HAVE REJECTED, BY THEIR OWN FREE ACTIONS, HAVE REJECTED THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, GOD AND THE BLESSED. OF COURSE, THAT REALM IS A REALM WHERE JESUS SAYS, THERE'S GOING TO BE WAILING AND GRINDING OF TEETH. SO, WE GET SOMETIMES, THE TRANSLATION, BUT THE REASON WE HAVE HELL, NOT THAT IT'S THE REALM. BUT THE BASIC TRANSLATION SHOULD BE THE REALM OF THE DEAD. RIGHT? BECAUSE JESUS IS, YOU KNOW, IF SOMEBODY IS ALREADY IN HELL, THEY ARE NOT GOING TO BE GOING TO HEAVEN BECAUSE HELL IS AN ETERNAL SELF EXCLUSION FROM GOD THE BLESSED, AND THEREFORE, THE KINGDOM OF GOD. SO, IT'S BASICALLY THE TRANSLATION HADES WHICH SHOULD BE TRANSLATED INTO ENGLISH RATHER THAN HELL. IT SHOULD BE TRANSLATED INTO ENGLISH AS THE REALM OF THE DEAD. THAT'S WHERE JESUS GOES TO PICK UP ALL OF THE WONDERFUL SAINTS AND PEOPLE WHO DIED BEFORE HE CAME. TO BRING THEM UP INTO HIS KINGDOM WITH HIM. AND THE REALM OF THE DEAD IS, DEFINED IN VARIOUS TERMS AS THE REALM OF THOSE RESTING OR THE REALM OF THOSE WHO ARE IN KIND OF A WISPY, ALMOST GHOST-LIKE STATE, ET CETERA. BUT IT'S NOT THE DOMAIN OF THE ETERNALLY DAMNED, REALLY. WHICH IS THE OTHER REASON FOR HELL. SO, THINK THAT PROBABLY BETTER TO SAY, REALM OF THE DEAD. >> Doug: WELL, GOOD BECAUSE WE HAVE WAILING AND GNASHING OF TEETH IN THE CONTROL ROOM! WE'VE GOT TO TAKE A BREAK AND WE'LL SEE FATHER SPITZER IN JUST A BIT. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HELL PART 3. AND WE'LL SEE HOW WE GET THROUGH THIS. STAY WITH US, MUCH MORE TO COME WITH OUR OWN MR. UNIVERSE, RIGHT AFTER THIS. [MUSIC] [MUSIC] >> Doug: THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR STAYING WITH US HERE IN "FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE" AT THE INTERCESSION OF FAITH AND REASON AS WE CONTINUE TALKING ABOUT YOUR QUESTIONS AND TALKING ABOUT THE CONCEPT AND THE REALITY OF HELL. WE'RE BACK WITH FATHER SPITZER. ONE LAST QUESTION BEFORE WE GET INTO THE TOPIC OF SOMEBODY THAT WROTE TO US THAT HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH THE TOPIC. HI, FATHER SPITZER, IS THERE SUCH A THING AS SPIRITUAL PRIDE? COULD THIS BE SOMETHING THAT MAY LEAD OTHERWISE GOOD CATHOLICS TO HELL? OR IS THIS CONTRADICTORY? THANKS, CARMELINE. >> Father: CARMELINE, THERE IS SUCH A THING AS SPIRITUAL PRIDE. IT'S A PARTICULARLY MENACING THING BECAUSE IT CAN ACTUALLY TAKE PEOPLE WHO ARE REALLY ATTEMPTING AND DOING VERY WELL AT TRYING TO FOLLOW THE LORD. SO, THEY HAVE GOTTEN THROUGH THE FIRST TWO STAGES. AS JOHN OF THE CROSS ELUCIDATES IS GET A DETACHMENT FROM SENSUALITY BUT YOU ARE NOT LIVING FOR THE GRATIFICATION BUT GIVING UP MANY OF THOSE THINGS FOR THE SAKE OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD. AND OF COURSE, SOME OF THOSE THINGS ARE PERFECTLY DECENT AND FINE. BUT YOU WANT TO BE LIVING FOR THESE THINGS, YOU DON'T WANT TO EXAGGERATE THEM OR LET THE GLORIES OF THIS WORLD OR EVEN SENSUAL DELIGHTS TAKE ANY CONTROL OF THE PRIORITIZATION OF YOUR LIFE. LET'S CALL THAT STAGE 1, GETTING THROUGH THE SENSUAL. OKAY. GETTING TO STAGE 2, GETTING TO MORE OF THE SPIRITUAL DIMENSIONS, THE EGOCENTRICITY THAT'S CAUSING GREED, ANGER, ENVY, PRIDE, AND VANITY. THAT'S NOT SO MUCH SENSUAL PROBLEMS, THOSE ARE EGO PROBLEMS. AND THEY ARE BLOCKING THE WAY TO DEVOTING OURSELVES COMPLETELY TO THE LORD. BELIEVE ME, YOU KNOW, I HAVEN'T GOTTEN THROUGH STAGE 2 VERY WELL. I STILL HAVE MY EGO TRAUMAS. AND I STILL GET THE BURSTS OF PRIDE, ANGER, IMPATIENCE, IT'S ALL THERE. SO, I'M WORKING AND I'M WORKING TO DO THAT. BUT LET'S SUPPOSE THAT I'M STARTING TO GET SOME SUCCESS IN THAT. YOU CAN BEGIN TO THINK, WELL, WOW. I'M RATHER A SAINTLY PERSON. MORE THAN THAT, YOU KNOW, I CAN ALMOST DO THIS ON MY OWN. AND MORE THAN THAT, THE REST OF THOSE BUMS OUT THERE, THEY HARDLY COMPARE TO MY SANCTITY. THEY ARE JUST A BUNCH OF LOW LIFES. AND THE THE MINUTE YOU DO THAT, IT'S SO INSIDIOUS, SNEAKY, IT STARTS COMING IN VERY, VERY GRADUALLY AND THEN IT KIND OF, YOU KNOW, THE DEVIL WORKS AND INCREASES IT EVER SO SLOWLY, ALMOST LIKE THAT VACCINATION AND THEN YOU KNOW, THE NEXT THING I KNOW, I'LL JUST BE PERFORMING MIRACLES, I'M SO SAINTLY. AND THE NEXT THING IS, OH, GEE, THINK I CAN COMPARE WITH ALL OF THE BIG SAINTS. I'M ONE OF THE HIGHLIGHTS OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD. VIRTUALLY MESSIANIC. AND THE MINUTE YOU GET INTO THAT POINT, HOW COULD THE CHURCH LIVE WITHOUT ME? I AM TRULY AT THE NEXUS OF ALL THINGS. YOU ARE SO FAR GONE AND SO DELUDED THAT REALLY, AS I SAY, THE BIGGER YOU ARE, THE HARDER THEY FALL, HARDER YOU FALL. AND THE PARTICULAR CASE HERE, HIGHER UP THE SCALE YOU ARE, AND IF YOU GET TAKEN IN BELIEVING IN YOUR OWN SANCTITY OR YOUR ABILITY TO BRING YOURSELF TO SANCTITY -- >> RIGHT, I WAS TALKING ABOUT THE PHARISEES AND THE WIDOWS MITE AND YOU KNOW, TO BE SO WONDERFUL HERE. >> EXACTLY. AND THE PUBLICANS, AND THE PRAYER OF THE PHARISEES AND JESUS SAYS IN THE WONDERFUL PASSAGE, LUKE 18, THINK, AND THE PHARISEE PRAYED TO HIMSELF, THANK GOD I'M NOT LIKE OTHER MEN. I THANK YOU, LORD, BECAUSE I TITHE EVERYDAY, I DO ALL THESE THINGS AND LOOK AT THAT TAX COLLECTOR OVER THERE. HE'S A BUM. SO, BASICALLY, THE MINUTE YOU START IN ON THAT, I DON'T CARE HOW MUCH MASTERY YOU HAVE OVER YOUR OWN SENSUALITY, WHAT A GREAT LAW-ABIDING CITIZEN YOU THINK YOU ARE, HOW YOU THINK YOU MAY HAVE MASTERED PRIDE, VANITY AND EVERYTHING ELSE, YOU HAVEN'T. YOU ARE GRIPPED BY PRIDE AND VANITY. IT'S JUST A NEW KIND OF PRIDE AND VANITY. INSTEAD OF POWER FOR THE WORLD AND POWER FOR WORLDLY -- I MEAN, VANITY AND PRIDE FOR WORLDLY POWER AND GLORY, THAT YOU HAVE VANITY AND PRIDE FOR SPIRITUAL GLORY! AND YOU HAVE BECOME THE GLORIOUS ONE IN YOUR OWN MIND. GOD ONCE AGAIN HAS BEEN PUSHED OUT OF THE CENTER. YOU ARE IN THE CENTER, THE INDISPENSABLE, MESSIANIC NECESSITY FOR THE CHURCH AND FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD. YOU'RE IT. AND THE MINE YOU HAVE THAT, YOU ARE GOING TO FALL HARD. AND THERE'S NO QUESTION ABOUT IT. THE DEVIL HAS A GRIP OVER YOUR EGO. AND THAT EGO IS OUT OF CONTROL. SO, JUST IN A THIRD STAGE FOR EGOCENTRICITY. BASICALLY THAT'S IT. >> YOU ARE KIND OF GOING IN THE WRONG DIRECTION, THE CLOSER YOU THINK YOU GET TO GOD, THE MORE DEFECTS YOU SEE IN YOURSELF AND THE LESS YOU ARE IN A SENSE LIKE GOD. ST. THOMAS AQUINAS TALKING ABOUT ALL HIS EFFORT WAS NOTHING MORE THAN STRAW. AND YOU BECOME UNWORTHY BECAUSE OF THE SHORTCOMINGS YOU SEE, NOT HOW WONDERFUL I AM. >> Father: PERFECTLY SAID, DOUG. I HAVE TO TELL YOU, THE MINUTE THAT YOU START THINKING, I'M DOING MORE SPIRITUAL GOOD THAN YOU ARE. THE MINUTE THAT STARTS CREEPING IN OR EVEN JUST KIND OF ADMIRING YOUR LIST OF SPIRITUAL ACCOMPLISHMENTS FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD. AND THEN, JUST EVEN IMPLICITLY COMPARING IT TO OTHERS' PALTRY CONTRIBUTIONS. YOU ARE ALREADY GETTING SUCKED IN. THE SPIRITUAL PRIDE HAS BEGUN. AND INSTEAD OF SEEING YOUR OWN DEFECTS WITH REALLY GREAT CLARITY, ALL YOU CAN SEE IS YOUR GREAT ATTRIBUTES WITHOUT THE CLARITY OF YOUR DEFECTS AND YOUR PRIDE. AND THAT REALLY IS A DANGEROUS SPIRITUAL CONDITION. AND SAINT JOHN OF THE CROSS, VERY MUCH WARNS AGAINST IT. AND SO DOES ST. IGNATIUS OF LOYOLA, WHOSE FEAST WE'RE CELEBRATING TODAY. AND I MUST SAY, HE SPEAKS ABOUT IT IN MANY DIFFERENT WAYS. SO, WE HAVE TO BE ON THE LOOKOUT ALL THE TIME. YOU ARE RIGHT ON, DOUG. >> WE HAVE A FEW MINUTES LEFT SO LET'S HIT THE REST OF THE CREDIBLE CATHOLIC'S ANALYSIS OF HELL. YOU TALKED ABOUT IN HERE, AND SOME OF IT WE WENT OVER BUT THIS JUMPED BACK OUT AT ME. AND THE IDEA THAT PEOPLE FIND, PROCURING THE BENEFITS OF HELL IN YOUR MIND. WHAT COULD SOMEBODY EVER THINK WAS A BENEFIT OF HELL. >> Father: YOU KNOW, IT'S SO INTERESTING, THEY DON'T CALL IT A BENEFIT OF HELL. WHAT THEY DO, THEY FALL IN LOVE WITH DOMINATING SOMEBODY ELSE. WELL, THAT HE NOT A LOVE THAT'S GOING TO BE IN HEAVEN. THE LOVE OF DOMINATING SOMEONE, THAT'S WHAT I WOULD CALL A BENEFIT OF HELL WHICH THEY ARE LOOKING AT, AS A BENEFIT. THEY DON'T LOOK AT THE OF HELL PART. SO THAT'S WHY THEY ARE GETTING SUCKED IN. WHEREAS, SOMEBODY COULD SAY, OH, I JUST LOVE BEING THE NUMBER ONE GUY AND HAVING PEOPLE WORSHIP AT MY FEET BECAUSE I'M WORSHIP WORTHY. I'M THE GUY. I'M A GOD UNTO MYSELF. SELF IDOLATRY. SO, THEY ARE IN LOVE WITH THEMSELVES. THEY ARE IN LOVE WITH THEIR POSITION. THEY ARE IN LOVE WITH THE GLORIES OF THIS WORLD. RIGHT? THAT'S A QUOTE, UNQUOTE, WHAT I WOULD CALL A BENEFIT OF HELL. THEY ARE NOT CALLING IT A BENEFIT OF HELL. THEY ARE CALLING IT A PLAIN OLE BENEFIT THEY WOULD LIKE. SO, IF YOU START LOOKING AT THE END OF THE DAY, AND YOU SHAPED YOUR WHOLE LIFE AND EVERY HABIT YOU HAVE, AND YOU SHAPED THAT AROUND, ESSENTIALLY WHAT I CALL THE BENEFITS OF HELL. I LOVE DOMINATING OTHER PEOPLE. I LOVE SELF IDOLATRY. AND I LOVE BEING AN ARROGANT PERSON AND HOLDING IT OVER OTHER PEOPLE. I JUST LOVE INSULTING PEOPLE WHO ARE MY TRUE INFERIORS, I JUST REALLY LOVE ALL THESE QUOTE, UNQUOTE, WONDERFUL BENEFITS OF MY LIFE. I'VE REALLY GOT IT ALL. I'M ALL THAT. THE MINUTE YOU START CHOOSING THAT AND SAYING, THIS IS WHO I AM, ESSENTIALLY, YOU ARE CHOOSING THE BENEFITS OF HELL. YOU MAY NOT KNOW IT'S THE BENEFIT OF HELL. BUT YOU GET TO YOUR DEATH. ESSENTIALLY AND GOD SAYS, WELL, GOSH, WOULDN'T YOU LIKE TO BE UP HERE IN HEAVEN WHERE YOU GET TO SHARE YOUR LIFE WITH EVERYBODY AND YOU GET TO LOVE EVERYBODY WITH FULL COMPASSION AND MERCY AND EVERYBODY IS EQUAL TO YOU IN LOVABILITY, OF COURSE, IT'S UNIQUE AND DISTINCTIVE BUT YOU ARE EQUIVALENT ONTOLOGICALLY AND YOU ARE EQUIVALENT IN BEING BECAUSE NOBODY IS BETTER OR WORSE THAN ANYONE IN HEAVEN. WE'RE ALL EQUALLY BLESSED BY GOD WHO IS AT THE CENTER. DON'T YOU WANT GOD TO BE AT THE CENTER. AND THE PERSON GOES, H-MM? ME IN THE CENTER OR GOD IN THE CENTER. A IDOLIZING ME OR IDOLIZING GOD? IDOLIZING DOMINATION OF OTHERS, IDOLIZING OTHERS OR THE GLORIES OF THIS WORLD WHICH HAVE COMPARATIVE ADVANTAGE. OR GIVING UP ALL MY COMPARATIVE ADVANTAGE. FRANKLY, I'LL JUST TAKE THE DOMINATION AND BEING BETTER THAN OTHERS AND THE COMPARATIVE ADVANTAGE AND SELF IDOLATRY AND THE MINUTE YOU SAY THAT AND SAY IT IN A DEFINITIVE WAY, YOU HAVE JUST EXCLUDED YOURSELF FROM THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN AND CHOSEN THE KINGDOM OF HELL. AND YOU JUST TOLD GOD, I FIND ALL OF YOUR BENEFITS, THE LOVING BENEFITS, THE SHARING BENEFITS, COMPASSION BENEFITS, THE WORSHIP OF GOD BENEFITS, FIND THOSE REPULSIVE. BUT I REALLY DO FIND ALL THOSE OTHER, LET'S SAY, OPPOSING BENEFITS VERY, VERY MUCH TO MY LIKING. SO, WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS, YOU ARE CHOOSING HELL. GOD DOESN'T SEND US TO HELL. WE CHOOSE THE BENEFITS LIST THAT WE LIKE THE BEST. WHICH IS WHY JESUS KEEPS SAYING YOU KNOW, GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER. THAT'S WHY HE'S SAYING, YOU WANT TO DEFINITELY LOOK AFTER PEOPLE WHO HAVE THEIR NEEDS. YOU REALLY WANT TO BE SOMEONE WHO REALLY GIVES YOURSELF TO OTHER PEOPLE. YOU REALLY WANT TO WORSHIP GOD INSTEAD OF WORSHIPING YOURSELF, ET CETERA. SO, THAT'S WHY HE'S SO INSISTENT. >> SO, HOW DO WE DEAL TODAY WITH THE PSYCHOLOGICAL UNDERSTANDING WE HAVE. AS YOU DEFINED A MORTAL SIN AND COMMITMENT AND ALL OF THE THINGS THAT YOU GO THROUGH IN A SENSE, FREE WILL. FOR SOMEBODY TO SAY, OH, ANYBODY THAT CHOOSES GOING TO HELL, THERE MUST BE SOMETHING MENTALLY WRONG WITH THEM, IN WHICH CASE THEY ARE NOT REALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR MAKING THAT CHOICE. >> Father: NO. I MEAN. WELL, FIRST OF ALL, OKAY, TWO QUICK THINGS. PEOPLE THAT CHOOSE TO GO TO HELL, AS I JUST SAID, THEY REALLY DO LIKE THE LIST OF BENEFITS IN HELL RATHER THAN THE LIST OF BENEFITS IN HEAVEN. THEY DON'T WANT ETERNAL JOY WITH OTHER PEOPLE. THEY WANT TO FIND THEIR HAPPINESS AND IN DOMINATING OTHER PEOPLE. WHAT THEY DON'T REALIZE IS, HEY, YOU THINK YOU ARE GOING TO BE HAPPY BY DOMINATING OTHER PEOPLE AND BY WORSHIPING YOURSELF. HOW WOULD YOU LIKE TO GO TO A PLACE WHERE EVERYBODY WANTS TO WORSHIP THEMSELVES. EVERYBODY WANTS TO DOMINATE YOU. EVERYBODY WANTS TO BE BETTER THAN YOU. ANYBODY DOESN'T HAVE ANY HEART FOR YOU AT ALL. THE SAME THAT YOU HAVE TOWARD THEM. HOW WOULD YOU LIKE TO GO TO A PLACE WHERE YOU ARE IN COMPLETE ISOLATION, COMPLETE EMPTINESS FROM EVERYTHING. HOW WOULD YOU LIKE TO GO TO THAT PLACE? AND OF COURSE, THAT'S WHAT THEY DON'T REALIZE, THAT IS A PERFECT HELL! THERE IS NO HUMAN COMMUNION, NO COMMUNION WITH GOD. THERE'S NO LOVE DOWN THERE. THERE'S NO SHARING AND RESPECTING AND LOVING OTHER PEOPLES' UNIQUENESS AND LOVABILITY DOWN THERE. ALL IT IS IS FEELING REPULSION TOWARD OTHER PEOPLE, REPULSION TOWARD GOD AND ALL DIRECTED TOWARD EVERYBODY, MUTUAL REPULSION WHICH BECOMES AN ATMOSPHERE OF DOMINATION AND HATRED AND THAT'S JUST AWFUL. YOU CAN CHOOSE THAT, BUT YOU WOULDN'T BE CHOOSING PAIN. YOU THINK YOU ARE CHOOSING HAPPINESS. YOU THINK YOU ARE CHOOSING THE THING THAT YOU LIKE THE BEST. BUT IN POINT OF FACT, IT'S GOING TO BECOME A PAIN, GOING TO BECOME ESPECIALLY AN UNMITIGATED PAIN WHEN YOU ARE IN AN ATMOSPHERE OF PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO HAVE CHOSEN THESE THINGS. >> Doug: OKAY. >> Father: SO, YES, THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DOES TEACH, SECONDLY, THAT YOU HAVE TO HAVE SUFFICIENT KNOWLEDGE THAT SOMETHING IS A MORTAL SIN. AND YOU ALSO HAVE TO HAVE FULL CONSENT OF THE WILL. THERE CAN'T BE ANY IMPEDIMENTS TO THE FREE USE OF THE WILL. NOW THAT'S NOT SO MUCH WITH RESPECT TO CHOOSING THE BENEFITS OF HELL. THAT'S WITH RESPECT TO, DID YOU COMMIT THIS MORTAL SIN FREELY AND KNOWLEDGEABLY. AND YOU CAN'T COMMIT A MORTAL SIN WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE AND FREEDOM. SO, YOU HAVE TO ELIMINATE THE IMPEDIMENTS, ET CETERA. SO, SOMETIMES A LOT OF PEOPLE WILL DO SOMETHING AND YOU WILL LOOK AT THAT, AND YOU GO, GEE, YOU KNOW, THEY ARE CHOOSING HELL. NO, NO, THEY ACTUALLY CHOSE SOMETHING THAT MAY HAVE BEEN VERY UNFREE. SO, THEY MAY HAVE CHOSEN TO STEAL A BUNCH OF STUFF. BUT IF THEY HAVE CLEPTOMANIA, YOU KNOW, MAYBE A REPULSIVE DESIRE TO TAKE THINGS, THEY ARE REALLY NOT IN CONTROL OF WHAT THEY ARE DOING. IF THEY HAVE A PERSONALITY DISORDER AND THEY ARE JUST UTTERING HATEFUL THINGS THEY PROBABLY DON'T HAVE THE FREEDOM TO DO OTHERWISE. SO, IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, IT DOES ALLOW FOR THE FACT THAT THERE HAS TO BE KNOWLEDGE AND FREEDOM. >> Doug: THAT'S WHERE WE LEAVE IT UP TO THE LORD. THIS QUESTION HAS COME UP BEFORE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER QUESTION. IS HELL ETERNAL. >> Father: YES. I MEAN, YES. I KNOW THERE'S SOME CONTROVERSIES ABOUT THAT, BUT WHAT THE CATECHISM SAYS, IT'S A DEFINITIVE SELF-EXCLUSION FROM GOD AND A THE BLESSED. IN OTHER WORDS, IF LOVE IS REPULSIVE TO YOU AND SHARING THE GLORY IS REPULSIVE TO YOU AND NOT DOMINATING OTHER PEOPLE IS REPULSIVE TO YOU, I MEAN, WHAT CAN I SAY? YOU KNOW, YOU ARE CHOOSING WHAT YOU REALLY WANT. SO, IN A WAY THEN, HELL IS ETERNAL IN THE SENSE THAT GOD JUDGES YOU. GOD KNOWS YOUR HEART. GOD KNOWS THAT YOU ARE MAKING A DEFINITIVE CHOICE OF THESE BENEFITS AND THAT YOU ARE NOT REALLY IN THE LONG TERM GOING TO CHANGE YOUR MIND. I THINK THAT'S AGAIN WHERE THAT WONDERFUL SPEECH OF LUCIFER IN JOHN MILTON'S, PARADISE LOST, HE BASICALLY SAYS TO THE FELLOW DEVILS, I WOULD RATHER SPEND ETERNITY DOWN HERE RATHER THAN BEND A KNEE FOR A SINGLE SECOND TO THAT GOD. THAT'S A DEFINITIVE CHOICE. AND PEOPLE CAN MAKE DEFINITIVE CHOICE TO EXCLUDE THEMSELVES FROM LIFE ETERNAL. >> ANOTHER QUESTION HERE, IS HELL A STATE OF DEFINITIVE SELF EXCLUSION OR PLACE OF DEFINITIVE SELF EXCLUSION AND WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE? >> WELL, ACTUALLY A PLACE HAS THIS IDEA OF A LOCATION OR SOMETHING OF THAT NATURE. AND THE CHURCH NEVER WANTED TO COME DOWN. SOME OF THE FATHERS DO CALL IT A PLACE, NO DOUBT. AND A LOT OF, YOU KNOW, TODAY, GENERALLY WE CALL IT A STATE. AND THAT'S WHAT THE CATECHISM CALLS IT. AND THE REASON THAT IT DOES SO IS BECAUSE STATE IS A MUCH MORE FLUID TERM. IT DOESN'T HAVE TO REFER TO PARTICULAR PLACE OR THAT IT WOULD HAVE SOME KIND OF SPATIAL CONDITIONS IN A WAY THAT WE MAY KNOW OF THEM. SO, THEY USE A MORE GENERAL AND FLUID TERM LIKE STATE. SAYS, YEAH, OF COURSE, IT'S AN EXISTING STATE. AND IT'S AN ETERNALLY EXISTING STATE. BUT WHETHER OR NOT IT'S A PLACE IN THE STRICT SENSE OF THE WORD, THEY JUST DON'T WANT TO GET THAT SPECIFIC ABOUT IT. SO, TODAY, IN THE CONTEMPORARY CONTEXT AND WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF THE CATECHISM, BASICALLY, THEY SAY, IT'S A STATE OF DEFINITIVE SELF EXCLUSION FROM THE KINGDOM OF GOD AND THE BLESSED. >> RIGHT. SO, IF YOU ARE GOING TO BE THERE FOR ETERNITY, DOESN'T MATTER IF IT'S A STATE OR A PLACE, I WOULD THINK SO? >> NO, NO. I SAY ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE WANT TO DO IS AVOID IT AT ALL COST. AND THAT'S THE FIRST PETITION OF THE OUR FATHER, THY KINGDOM COME IS VERY IMPORTANT. YOU ARE BASICALLY SAYING PLEASE, LEAD ME TO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. AND THAT WONDER PRAYER OF JOHN DUNN, BATTER MY HEART, THREE PERSONS OF GOD. IN OTHER WORDS, USING THE CROSS AND ANY MEANS AT YOUR DISPOSAL, GET INTO MY HEART SO I REALLY KNOW WHAT AN ARROGANT RAT I AM. AND PLEASE, ALLOW ME, LORD, TO OVERCOME THIS AND TO INCREASE IN EMPATHY AND COMPASSION AND RESPECT AND LOVE. PLEASE, HELP ME, DEAR LORD, TO HAVE THE LOVE OF YOUR SON WITHIN MY HEART TO SOME LITTLE DEGREE. ENOUGH SO THAT I CAN BE BROUGHT INTO THE FULLNESS OF YOUR KINGDOM AND THAT I MIGHT ALWAYS BE REPENTANT AT THE END. SO, EVEN IF I AM TOTALLY IMPERFECT AT THE END, THAT MY DESIRE TO REPENT AND TO BE WITH YOU IS SUFFICIENT, RIGHT, TO BRING ME INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD. TO GO TO CONFESSION, REPENT, TO BE WITH YOU, CARRY ME OVER THE LINE, EVEN IF I AM THE WORST PERSON IN THE WORLD. MY DESIRE TO BE WITH YOU AND MY DESIRE FOR TRUE CONTRITION FOR THE THINGS THAT I HAVE DONE THAT MAY HAVE REALLY HARMED PEOPLE AND IN YOUR KINGDOM, PLEASE, PLEASE, LORD, FORGIVE ME. THAT WILL GET ME OVER THE LINE. AND AS THEY SAY, THANK YOU FOR THE DOCTRINE OF PURGATORY AND FOR PURGATORY ITSELF. BECAUSE I GOT A LOT OF TIME TO DO WHAT I DIDN'T DO ON THIS EARTH, NAMELY TO BE ABLE TO HAVE A PURIFIED HEART SO THAT I REALLY DO WANT HIS LOVE, HIS COMPASSION AND HIS HUMILITY AND HIS GOODNESS MORE THAN I WANT MYSELF IN MY POWER AND MY COMPARATIVE ADVANTAGE AND ALL OF THE OTHER THINGS THAT DESTROY ME. >> Doug: AND THAT'S A PERFECT SEGUE FOR US TO BE TALKING ABOUT NEXT WEEK, WHEN WE'RE GOING TO BE TALKING ABOUT PURGATORY. GIVE US YOUR BLESSING ON THE WAY OUT THE DOOR, FATHER. >> Father: ABSOLUTELY. AND MAY THE LORD BLESS ALL OF YOU AND INSPIRE YOU THROUGH HIS HOLY SPIRIT TO KEEP YOUR EYES FIXED ON THE GOAL, TO BE FIXED ON CHRIST AND THE LOVE OF CHRIST, AND THE DESIRE TO BE LIKE HIM AND EVEN FOR THE DESIRE FOR THE DESIRE TO BE LIKE HIM SO THAT IN YOUR ACTS OF CONTRITION YOU MAY KNOW AND DESIRE THE DESIRE TO BE LIKE HIM IN GOODNESS AND IN LOVE, AND SO THROW YOURSELF UPON HIS MERCY, TO ENTER INTO THAT PROCESS OF MOVING INTO THE KINGDOM OF SALVATION SO THAT TOGETHER WE CAN EXPERIENCE IT IN THE LIFE TO COME, IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, AND OF THE SON, AND OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. AMEN. >> Doug: AMEN. AND THANK YOU SO MUCH FATHER SPITZER. WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK! AND TO OUR AUDIENCE OUT THERE, DON'T FORGET FATHER SPITZER WONDERFUL RESOURCES THROUGH THE RELIGIOUS CATALOG, ewtnRC.com. AND A GREAT PLACE FOR ALL OF THESE EVENTS. KNIGHT OF COLUMBUS 137TH SUPREME CONVENTION COMING FROM MINNEAPOLIS, TUESDAY AUGUST 6, 10:00 AM. LOOK FOR THAT. BRIAN PATRICK ANCHORING AND THEN MY BOOK MARK CARL SCHULTZ, ST. JOSEPH GUIDE TO LECTIO DIVINA AND JOIN US AGAIN NEXT WEEK AS WE MOVE INTO THE SUBJECT OF PURGATORY. THIS SUNDAY, LOOK FOR OUR NEXT BOOK MARK EPISODE AS I MENTIONED. BUT THAT'S ALL AHEAD. STAY WITH US, WE'RE AT THE INTERSECTION OF FAITH AND REASON. AND HOPEFULLY A LITTLE COOLER NEXT WEEK. [MUSIC]
