(THEME MUSIC) >> I AM FATHER MITCH PACWA, AND WELCOME TO EWTN LIVE WHERE WE BRING YOU GUESTS FROM AROUND THE WORLD. TONIGHT, WE'LL TAKE A LOOK AT THE WAY THAT CHRISTIANITY RESPONDED TO THE ENLIGHTENMENT MOVEMENT OF THE 18TH CENTURY. THE SUBSEQUENT ANTI-CHRISTIAN LEGACY OF THE FRENCH REVOLUTION AND EVEN NAPOLEONIC REIGN AND HOW WE CAN USE LESSONS LEARNED FROM THAT PERIOD OF TIME TO STAND UP TO THE CONTEMPORARY SECULARISM THAT'S THREATENING OUR CATHOLIC FAITH TODAY. BEFORE WE GET TO THAT, WE WOULD LIKE TO TALK BRIEFLY WITH EWTN RADIO'S JACK WILLIAMS ABOUT WHAT'S NEW ON EWTN RADIO! JACK, WHAT DO YOU HAVE FOR US? >> WELL, I HAVE SOME EXCITING, EXCITING NEWS TONIGHT TO SHARE WITH OUR VIEWERS. HAVE YOU EVER BEEN TO CHICAGO? >> Fr. Pacwa: YES, SIR. >> ONCE OR TWICE? >> Fr. Pacwa: I LIKED TO BE CLOSE TO MY MOTHER WHEN I WAS BORN! >> NOW, WE HAVE A GROUP OF FOLKS IN THE NORTHERN SUBURBS IN ANTIOCH, ILLINOIS, HAVE A RADIO AFFILIATE THERE CARRYING EWTN PROGRAMMING FOR A LONG TIME, WSSI, 85.5, AND THEY HAVE UNDERTAKEN A NEW VENTURE WHERE THEY ARE BRINGING EWTN PROGRAMMING TO WN D Z, 750AM IN CHICAGO. STARTING BACK ON THE 11TH ON THE FEAST OF OUR LADY. SHE'S NOW COVERING THE ENTIRE CHICAGO METRO AREA. THE ENTIRE CHICAGOLAND AREA WITH EWTN PROGRAMMING MONDAY THROUGH FRIDAY DURING DAYLIGHT HOURS. THIS COVERS PARTS OF GARY, INDIANA, SOUTHWEST MICHIGAN, SOUTHERN WISCONSIN. AND AS I SAID, THE ENTIRE CHICAGO METROPOLITAN AREA. AND THAT'S QUITE A FEAT FOR HER TO PULL OFF! WE'RE EXCITED TO BE SPEAKING ON WEDNESDAY, OPEN LINE WEDNESDAY WITH FATHER MITCH. THEY ARE GOING TO HEAR YOU IN YOUR NATIVE HOME AND HOMELAND, CHICAGOLAND! IT'S A BIG DEAL FOR US AND WE'RE VERY EXCITED ABOUT IT. >> AND SINCE IT REACHES WESTERN MICHIGAN, I'LL GET MY KID BROTHER TO LISTEN TO IT IN HIS SHOP. HE HAS A MECHANIC SHOP OVER THERE. YEAH, I BET HE CAN. IT'S RIGHT ACROSS THE LAKE. >> AND WE HAVE OVER 350 AFFILIATED STATIONS AROUND THE UNITED STATES NOW. IF ANYBODY IS IN AN AREA WHERE THEY CAN'T HEAR EWTN RADIO ON AM, FM, CONTACT STEVE RESPONSE CCOWSKI BECAUSE I HAVE A EASY EMAIL. RADIO@EWTN.COM. SO, JUST EMAIL RADIO@EWTN.COM. IF YOU DO NOT HAVE EWTN RADIO IN YOUR AREA AND YOU THINK YOU WOULD LIKE TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN WE CAN HELP YOU OUT. >> AND UNTIL THEN, GET THE EWTN RADIO APP. >> RIGHT, SIRIUS CHANNEL 130. IT'S ON I HEART RADIO. AND ALL OF THE MAJOR PLATFORMS, YOU CAN FIND EWTN RADIO. >> HOWDY TO EVERYBODY IN SWEET HOME CHICAGO! ALL RIGHT. WE'LL BE BACK IN JUST A COUPLE OF MINUTES SO, STAY WITH US. (THEME MUSIC) (THEME MUSIC) >> WELCOME BACK. OUR GUEST TONIGHT IS A CATHOLIC HISTORIAN WHO THINKS THE 18TH CENTURY ENLIGHTENMENT MOVEMENT DESERVES FRESH EXAMINATION FROM A MORE BALANCED PERSPECTIVE. THAN I USUALLY HAVE. I USUALLY GO TOWARDS ANTAGONISM TOWARD THE ENLIGHTENMENT. HE'S MUCH MORE BALANCED. AND HE SUGGESTS THAT THE THREE STRATEGIES USED BY CHRISTIANS IN THE ENLIGHTENMENT; NAMELY, CONFLICT, MY FAVORITE. ENGAGEMENT. AND RETREAT. AND HE ALSO SAYS THAT FOR DIFFERENT CIRCUMSTANCES, THEY CAN APPLY AND BE USED BY US IN THE CONTEMPORARY ANTI-CHRISTIAN CULTURE AS WELL. SO, PLEASE WELCOME THE AUTHOR OF A BOOK CALLED RETHINKING THE ENLIGHTENMENT: FAITH IN THE AGE OF REASON. DR JOSEPH T STUART. DR STUART, WELCOME. >> THANK YOU, FATHER. >> IT'S A DELIGHT. HERE IS ONE BASIC QUESTION. WHAT IS THE ENLIGHTENMENT MOVEMENT? AND WHEN DID IT START? >> WELL, SURE. IT STARTED ABOUT 17 HUNDREDS AND LASTED THROUGHOUT THE 17 HUNDREDS, ABOUT A HUNDRED TIME PERIOD YOU GIVE IT. AND IT WAS REALLY AN EXCITING TIME IN MANY WAYS. ENTHUSIASM FOR THE PHYSICAL SCIENCES, FOR TECHNOLOGY, AND FOR, THINK WE CAN SAY A KIND OF OPTIMISM THAT HUMAN BEINGS CAN IMPROVE THEIR LIVES IN THE WORLD. FOR MUCH OF THE WORLD, PEOPLE ACCEPTED THEIR LIFE AND PEOPLE COULD THINK OF WAYS TO IMPROVE THEMSELVES IN THE WORLD. I THINK SOMETIMES IT'S BEST TO THINK OF THE ENLIGHTENMENT AS NOT A SET OF PHILOSOPHICAL CONCLUSIONS, BUT MORE OF A METHOD, A WAY OF APPROACHING THE WORLD ACCORDING TO THE CENTRALITY OF THE HUMAN, USED THEISTIC OR ATHEISTIC WAY. AND THERE WERE PEOPLE ON BOTH SIDES. SO LOOK AT IT AS A WAY TO APPROACH THE WORLD RATHER THAN JUST A SET OF CONCLUSIONS IS HELPFUL. >> THINK THAT'S A GOOD POINT. AND FOR MANY PEOPLE IN THE ENLIGHTENMENT, REASON WAS THE TOUCHSTONE, THE ABILITY TO USE LOGIC AND REASON AS THE STARTING POINT. IN SOME WAYS, THAT WAS WHAT RENE DESCARTES STARTED OFF A FEW DECADES EARLIER. AND THIS IDEA THAT USING REASON TO UNDERSTAND PHYSICS, AND GALILEO REALLY EARLIER THAN HE DID. BUT OBSERVATION AND JOINING LOGICAL CONCLUSIONS ON THE BASIS OF OBSERVATION. THIS WAS PART OF THAT MENTALITY. AND WE STILL HAVE THIS. IT'S NOT A BAD IDEA, IS IT? >> Guest: THAT'S RIGHT. YEAH, REASON WOULD BE A KEY TOUCHSTONE OF THE AGE OF ENLIGHTENMENT AND SO TOO, LIBERTY, POLITICAL LIBERTY. AND MORE ENLIGHTENMENT IN THE AMERICAN MODE. VIRTUE, THE IMPORTANCE OF VIRTUE AND SOCIAL SOCIETY. AND YOU HAVE DIFFERENT FLAVORS OF THE ENLIGHTENMENT. AGAIN, IT'S HELPFUL TO THINK ALMOST MULTIPLE ENLIGHTENMENT, DIFFERENT METHODOLOGIES AND YOU GET LOCAL VARIETIES OF IT. >> Fr. Pacwa: NOW, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT ALSO IS OF INTEREST. IN THE MIDDLE AGES, NOBODY SAID, I BELONG TO THE MIDDLE AGES >> Guest: RIGHT >> Fr. Pacwa: SO, WHEN YOU ARE, USUALLY WHEN YOU ARE IN THE MIDDLE OF SOMETHING, YOU ARE NOT AWARE OF WHAT THAT PERIOD OF HISTORY WILL BE CALLED. THE ENLIGHTENMENT PEOPLE SEE THEMSELVES AS THE ENLIGHTENMENT. >> Guest: YEAH, THEY DID. IT WAS KIND OF THE RENAISSANCE, CREATING THE IDEA OF THE MIDDLE AGES, OF A MIDDLE TIME BETWEEN ANCIENT CLASSICAL WORLD AND THE REVIVAL OF CLASSICAL LEARNING IN THE TIME OF THE RENAISSANCE. AND THE ENLIGHTENMENT PICKED UP ON THAT THEME, GAVE IT MAYBE A LITTLE DARKER HUE AND STARTED CALLING IT THE DARK AGES FOR THAT THOUSAND YEARS BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF LEARNING PRIMARILY, AND THE KIND OF BARBARISM THAT RELEVANT IN THE MIDDLE AGES AND THEY REALLY RESPECTED THE CLASSICAL WORLD AND THEY REALIZED ARISTOTLE MADE MISTAKES, AT LEAST IN PHYSICAL SCIENCE. SO, WE NEED TO GO BEYOND WHAT ARISTOTLE AND SOME OF THE CLASSICS HAVE DONE AND WE HAVE THE NEW AGE. >> Fr. Pacwa: AND THAT WAS PART OF THE TENSION, I THINK, FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THE CHURCH WHO HAD STUDIED ARISTOTLE'S PHILOSOPHY BUT THEY ASSUMED THAT HIS PHYSICS AND OTHER, HIS BIOLOGY AND OTHER SCIENCES WERE TRUE. SO, THEY KEPT DEDUCING FROM ARISTOTLE THAT THIS IS THE WAY THE WORLD REALLY IS BECAUSE ARISTOTLE WAS SO GOOD AT LOGICS, ETHICS AND OTHER AREAS OF PHILOSOPHY. THEY FOUND OUT, WELL, WAIT, NO, HE NEEDED A LOT OF IMPROVEMENTS. THAT'S WHY SIR ISAAC NEWTON AND OTHERS DID MORE WORK IN PHYSICS AND ASTRONOMY AND OTHER AREAS. >> THAT'S RIGHT. IT CAME AS A SHOCK THAT ARISTOTLE MADE MISTAKES BECAUSE HE WAS HELD TO SUCH A HIGH PLATFORM. AND THEY THOUGHT, WHOA, IF HE MADE OTHER MISTAKES THE ANCIENT WORLD DID NOT SEE. ONE THING, THEY DIDN'T SEE THE AMERICAS, AND THERE WAS NEW INFORMATION COMING IN BY THE CLASSICAL WORLD AND IT WAS AN EXCITING DISCOVERY FOR THE WORLD REALLY FOR THE FIRST TIME. >> Fr. Pacwa: RIGHT. AND THERE WAS LOTS AND LOTS OF EXPIRATION TO BE DONE THROUGHOUT THE WORLD BECAUSE AFRICA WAS ALSO DISCOVERED TO BE NORTH AFRICA AND SO ON. THERE WAS SUCH A WIDE VARIETY OF DISCOVERY. >> Guest: THAT'S RIGHT >> Fr. Pacwa: NOW, WHY WAS THEIR TENSION BETWEEN THIS ENLIGHTENMENT AND THE CHURCH? SOUNDS LIKE THEIR DISPUTE WAS WITH ARISTOTLE. HOW DID THE CHURCH GET IN ON THIS? >> Guest: WELL, YEAH, NO, THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION. THE DISPUTE WAS MAINLY IN FRANCE. GOOD TO START THERE. THE FRENCH HAD A UNIQUE CULTURE, A SERIES OF GREAT KINGS, ABSOLUTE MONARCHS AND OFFICIALLY WERE AT LEAST, CATHOLIC, SONS OF THE CHURCH. BUT THE TROUBLE WAS, THE REGIME IN FRANCE WAS SOMETIMES QUITE REPRESSIVE OF PEOPLE WHO WERE EITHER NOT CHRISTIAN OR OTHER CHRISTIANS, LIKE, PROTESTANTS. THEN THE REGIME BECAME REPRESSIVE OF DIFFERENT OF -- KINDS OF CATHOLICS. LIKE, THE JANSENISTS WHO WERE PERSECUTED AND YOU HAD TO BE A CERTAIN KIND OF CATHOLIC, LIKE POLITICAL CORRECTNESS SO A SIMILAR KIND OF CATHOLIC POLITICAL CORRECTNESS WAS AT WORK IN FRANCE. IT CREATED A KIND OF RESENTMENT UNDER THE CULTURE. PEOPLE LIKE VOLTAIRE AND THEY ATTACKED THE CHURCH AND ONE OF THE REASONS THEY DID POWER, CONNECTED TO THE STATE. AND WHENEVER THAT OCCURS, THERE'S ABUSE. AND IT PUT A LOT OF FLAVORS, BAD FLAVORS IN PEOPLES' MOUTH. AND CERTAIN PEOPLE THAT FLED FRANCE WERE WRITING HOW THE SITUATION IN FRANCE, CREATED A POISONOUS ATMOSPHERE, TAINTING THE WHOLE REPUTATION OF THE ENLIGHTENMENT. >> Fr. Pacwa: CERTAINLY IT'S WORTH NOTING THAT IN THE CENTURY BEFORE THE ENLIGHTENMENT, DURING THE 16 HUNDREDS, IT WAS A FRENCH CARDINAL WHO HAD SO MUCH POWER IN FRANCE. AND NOT ALWAYS FOR THE SAKE OF CHRIST THE CHURCH OR THE GOSPEL. HE WAS, IN MANY WAYS, MORE OF A FRENCHMAN THAN HE WAS A CATHOLIC. SO, MANY OF HIS POLICIES THAT CAME OUT, TOO. HE WAS ASSOCIATED WITH SOME OF THAT OPPRESSION WITHIN, INSIDE FRANCE, AS WELL AS BEING ONE OF THE PUP TEARS IN THE 30 YEAR WAR. AND ENLIGHTENMENT PEOPLE OBJECTED TO RELIGION BEING A BASIS FOR WAR. >> Guest: YEAH, THAT'S RIGHT. LIKE TODAY, WE CAN SEE IN THE SAD SCANDALS WITHIN OUR OWN CHURCH. ABUSE OF POWER, SOMEBODY WITH A RESPECTABLE POSITION AND CHARITABLE, YOU GET A REACTION, YOU SEE PEOPLE NOT ONLY TRYING TO RUN AWAY FROM THE CHURCH BUT PEOPLE ATTACKING THE CHURCH. THAT'S SAD. THEY SHOULDN'T NECESSARILY BE DOING THAT. BUT YOU CAN UNDERSTAND WHY, WHEN YOU SEE WHAT'S GOING ON BENEATH THE SURFACE. >> Fr. Pacwa: AND YOU KNOW, IT'S A DIFFERENT MOTIVATION IN CONTEMPORARY TIMES. A LOT OF SO-CALLED SECULAR OR PROGRESSIVE LEFT AND VARIOUS OTHER NAMES THEY GIVE THEMSELVES WOULD SEE THE CHURCH AS OPPOSING SOME OF THEIR OWN PET PROJECTS, LIKE, ISSUES OF LIFE, BEGINNING OF LIFE, END OF LIFE, QUALITY OF LIFE, ALL OF THOSE THINGS THAT THEY SEE. AND THE CHURCH IS IN OPPOSITION TO THEIR AGENDAS. SO, THIS IS ANOTHER FACTOR IN MODERN TIMES. NOW HERE'S THE QUESTION. YOU MENTIONED FRANCE. BUT WAS THE ANTAGONISM TO THE CHURCH UNIVERSAL IN EUROPE? DID ALL OF THE ENLIGHTENMENT FIGURES IN, SAY, ITALY, GERMANY, AND OTHER PLACES, DID THEY ALWAYS HAVE THIS KIND OF ANTAGONISTIC RELATIONSHIP WITH THE CHURCH? >> Guest: NO, DEFINITELY NOT. WE CALL THEM ENLIGHTENERS, PEOPLE OF THE ENLIGHTENMENT, THINKERS AND LEADERS, WHO WERE CATHOLIC, VERY DEEP CATHOLICS AND WE'LL TALK ABOUT SOME OF THEM TONIGHT FOR SURE. BUT ALSO PROTESTANT CHRISTIANS AND JEWISH PEOPLE, WHO WERE VERY RELIGIOUS, BUT ALSO VERY SORTED ENLIGHTENED. AND THERE'S A WHOLE DIFFERENT SIDE TO THE AGE OF ENLIGHTENMENT THAT'S BEEN FORGOTTEN, FOR DIFFERENT REASONS. AND SO, WHAT THIS BOOK IS DOING, IS TRYING TO BUILD ON RECENT SCHOLARSHIPS. AND SINCE THE YEAR 2000, THERE'S A LOT OF WORK DONE IN THE 18TH CENTURY, BY WONDERFUL HISTORIANS, MANY AMERICAN AND EUROPEAN AS WELL, AND OUTSIDE OF THAT. BUT RECOVERING THE STORY OF CHRISTIAN PARTICIPATION IN THE ENLIGHTENMENT. IN MY BOOK, THESE SCHOLARS ARE MUCH GREATER SCHOLARS THAN I AM. AND MY BOOK IS FROM A GENERAL AUDIENCE TO DRAW FROM THEIR WORK TO MAKE IT AVAILABLE. >> Fr. Pacwa: THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I LIKED ABOUT YOUR BOOK AND FOUND VERY HELPFUL. MOST OF THE TIME, WE STUDY THE 17 HUNDREDS IN ORDER TO SEE HOW SOME OF THOSE THINKERS FROM THE ENLIGHTENMENT AFFECTED THE AMERICAN REVOLUTIONARIES, AND WE ALSO STUDY HOW THE FRENCH REVOLUTION WENT BADLY COMPARED TO OURS, ESPECIALLY. AND HOW THE NAPOLEONIC WARS CAME OUT. AND FRANKLY, WHEN YOU ARE TEACHING HISTORY CLASSES, BEING ABLE TO STUDY ABOUT WAR AND VIOLENCE KEEPS THE CLASS FOR INTERESTING. BUT THE HISTORY OF IDEAS IS NOT ALWAYS AS EXCITING, ESPECIALLY IF YOU ARE TEACHING HIGH SCHOOL AND GRAMMAR SCHOOL. SO, THINK THAT YOU ARE RIGHT. THIS IS A NEW EVALUATION. SO, EXPLAIN TO US THE THREE APPROACHES THAT YOU DESCRIBED IN YOUR BOOK SO NICELY, THE THREE DIFFERENT APPROACHES. START OFF WITH THE ANTAGONISM >> Guest: LET ME BACK UP JUST A LITTLE BIT AND SAY, I'M SOMEBODY REALLY INTERESTED IN THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN CATHOLICISM AND THE MODERN WORLD AND HOW THAT WORKS. MODERN WORLD BEING DEFINED SINCE 1500 UNTIL TODAY. SO MY QUESTION OFTEN IS, WITH MY STUDENTS, TOO, TO WHAT EXTENT CAN WE BE CATHOLIC AND MODERN? THEY HAVE A BI-CULTURAL IDENTITY. WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE? SO I STARTED TO REALIZE THE MODERN WORLD REALLY STARTED TO COME TOGETHER IN THE 17 HUNDREDS, DURING THE AGE OF THE ENLIGHTENMENT. SO, WHEN IF WE USE THE AGE OF ENLIGHTENMENT IN A CASE STUDY, SMALLER, IN THE MODERN WORLD. WE LOOK AT 17 HUNDREDS, WHEN THIS CAME ABOUT, AND WE UNDERSTAND HOW CHRISTIANS ENGAGED IN THAT TIME, IT SPREADS LIGHT ON THAT LARGER QUESTION. THAT'S THE BACKGROUND TO WHAT I AM TRYING TO DO >> Fr. Pacwa: SO YOU REALLY ARE TRYING TO HELP US AS CONTEMPORARY CATHOLICS TO DEAL WITH THE ON GOING STRUGGLE WITH IDEAS THAT BEGAN IN THE ENLIGHTENMENT AND STILL SHOW UP TODAY IN VARIOUS CONFLICTS. >> Guest: THAT'S RIGHT. YEAH. AND ONE OF THE CHALLENGES TO DOING THIS WORK HAS BEEN THAT MANY OF THE SORT OF, OLD SCHOOL VIEWS OF THE ENLIGHTENMENT WERE WHAT YOU WERE SAYING BEFORE. FOR CATHOLICS IT WAS BAD BECAUSE IT ATTACKED THE CHURCH. AND THE REASONS THAT CATHOLICS LONGTIME THOUGHT THAT IS BECAUSE OF THE FRENCH REVOLUTION AND REMEMBERING THE ENLIGHTENMENT THROUGH THE FRENCH REVOLUTION AND THAT ASSUMES THAT IT WAS ONLY FRENCH. AND IT ASSUMES THAT THE FRENCH ENLIGHTENMENT CAUSED THE FRENCH REVOLUTION. WHICH THIS IS A MATTER OF SOME HISTORICAL CONTROVERSY BETWEEN ENLIGHTENMENT AND THERE WERE MANY ENLIGHTENMENT FIGURES KILLED BY THE REVOLUTION, AND MANY THAT WERE HORRIFIED BY WHAT WAS GOING ON WITH THE FRENCH REVOLUTION. HISTORIANS HAVE REMEMBERED THE ENLIGHTENMENT THROUGH THE FRENCH REVOLUTION AND ASSUMED THAT THE ENLIGHTENMENT WAS ALWAYS OPPOSED TO RELIGION. THAT NARRATIVE IS WHAT ME AND OTHER HISTORIANS HAVE BEEN CHALLENGING FOR THE LAST 20 YEARS. >> Fr. Pacwa: YEAH, GREAT. AND THINK THAT THAT IS CORRECT. A LOT OF FOLKS DON'T REMEMBER THAT THE FRENCH REVOLUTION ITSELF DEVELOPED IN STAGES AND THAT THE EARLIEST STAGES DID NOT SHOW THE SAME ANTAGONISM AS, SAY, ONCE FOLKS LIKE ROUSSEAU HAVE INFLUENCED ON THE FRENCH COMMITTEE. >> Guest: THAT'S RIGHT >> Fr. Pacwa: IN PARIS, CAUSING THE REIGN OF TERROR. ON THE BASIS OF ROUSSEAU'S NOTION AND ROGUES PIERRE MEGALOMANIA AS IT TURNS OUT. THAT'S IMPORTANT TO DISTINGUISH. SO, TELL US, THEN -- WELL, WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THE CONFLICT. I WANT TO BE SURE THAT WE GET INTO THE ENGAGEMENT. THE CONFLICT IS INTERESTING BECAUSE IT'S A GOOD FIGHT. AND I ALWAYS LIKE THAT, WHETHER IT'S A WESTERN MOVIE OR HISTORY! BUT LET'S GET OVER TO THE ENGAGEMENT. WHERE WAS THEIR ENGAGEMENT, BETWEEN THE CHURCH AND THE ENLIGHTENMENT. >> Guest: SURE. YEAH. SO, THAT'S, WHAT I FOUND WAS THREE STRATEGIES, NOT JUST THE CONFLICT. SO, CHRISTIANS IN THE 18TH CENTURY, IF WE GO BACK IN TIME AS HISTORIAN, WHICH IS WHAT WE DO. WE LOOK AROUND AND WE SAY, LET'S TRY TO UNDERSTAND THESE PEOPLE ON THEIR OWN TERMS. WHAT I SAW WAS THREE STRATEGIES THAT CHRISTIANS USE. I WON'T SAY THEY WERE NECESSARILY SELF CONSCIOUS STRATEGIES, OH, I'LL PICK THIS ONE TODAY. BUT THESE WERE THE KIND OF RESPONSES THAT I WAS SEEING CHRISTIANS MAKING. ONE, WAS THE CONFLICT THAT WE'VE SEEN ALREADY. AND WE CAN TALK MORE ABOUT IT BECAUSE THERE'S AMAZING STORIES CONNECTED TO CONFLICT, SOON. SO, SECOND, ENGAGEMENT. THIS IS WHERE CATHOLICS ARE ENGAGING WITH ENLIGHTENMENT THEMES, THIS ENLIGHTENMENT METHOD THAT I MENTIONED AT THE BEGINNING. AND THEY ARE ENGAGING AND REFLECTING BACK HOW THEY UNDERSTAND SOCIETY AND THE CHURCH. THIRD STRATEGY THAT THEY USED WAS JUST TO KIND OF IGNORE THE ENLIGHTENMENT. JUST KIND OF RETREAT. NOT IN A MILITARY SENSE BUT A SPIRITUAL MOVEMENT INWARD TO TRY TO BUILD UP CHRISTIAN CULTURES AND INSTITUTIONS FROM WITHIN. FROM THE HOUSEHOLDS, PARISHES, RELIGIOUS SOCIETIES, RELIGIOUS ORDERS, ET CETERA. SO, THE FIRST CONFLICT IS IMAGINE TWO CULTURES COLLIDING WITH EACH OTHER. AND IMAGINE THESE TWO CULTURES, OVERLAPPING AND THEY SHARE COMMON CONCERNS. AND IN RETREAT, IMAGINE TWO CULTURES PARALLEL DEVELOPING THROUGH TIME, JUST KIND OF IGNORING EACH OTHER. YEAH. AND EACH STRATEGY HAS ITS OWN STRENGTHS AND WEAKNESSES. WHAT I FOUND WAS THAT IF WE CAN UNDERSTAND WHAT THE STRENGTHS AND WEAKNESSES ARE OF EACH STRATEGY, WE CAN SEE HOW WE NEED ALL THREE. THE STRENGTHS OF ONE HELP TO COUNTER BALANCE THE OTHER. AND I SO CLEARLY SEE THAT IN THE CONTEXT OF THE 18TH CENTURY. AND I WAS EXCITED TO SEE, WELL, TODAY, WE ALSO NEED DIFFERENT STRATEGIES AND THEY NEED TO CORRECT EACH OTHERS STRENGTHS AND WEAKNESSES AS WELL >> Fr. Pacwa: YEP. AND IN TERMS OF ENGAGEMENT, WHAT WERE SOME OF THE EXAMPLES WITH THE ENLIGHTENMENT AND THE CHURCH. >> THIS IS THE WHOLE SUBJECT OF WHAT'S CALLED THE CATHOLIC ENLIGHTENMENT. THIS MAY SEEM LIKE A BIT OF A SHOCKING PHRASE TO SOME PEOPLE, PUTTING THOSE TWO WORDS TOGETHER. BUT THERE'S JUST DOZENS OF BOOKS NOW ON THE TOPIC, CALLED THE CATHOLIC ENLIGHTENMENT. THE TERM ITSELF HAS BEEN AROUND FOR A HUNDRED YEARS AND ONLY IN THE LAST 20 YEARS HAS IT GOTTEN ATTENTION FROM HISTORIANS AT MAJOR UNIVERSITIES, TORONTO, NOTRE DAME, AND FROM OUTSIDE OF OUR COUNTRY AS WELL. SO, WOW, THERE WERE SOPHISTICATED CATHOLIC INTELLECTUALS, MONKS, BISHOPS, LAY PEOPLE, AND WOMEN, WE CAN TALK ABOUT SOME OF THEIR AMAZING STORIES, AND A POPE, POPE BENEDICT XIV, ENLIGHTENMENT POPE, HE RAINED UNTIL 1758. AND ALL OF THESE PEOPLE ACROSS EUROPE, INSPIRING AND IN AMAZING WAYS WERE ENGAGING WITH THE ENLIGHTENMENT CULTURE AND GOING WITH A MODERN CULTURE, SINCE VATICAN II, MUCH OF THE GROUND OF VATICAN II WAS EXPLORED AND DEVELOPED BY THESE CATHOLIC ENLIGHTENMENT FIGURES. PARTICULARLY IN GERMANY WITH THE VARIOUS MONKS. AND OTHERS, TOO, VERNACULAR IN THE LITURGY. WIDE PARTICIPATION IN THE LITURGY, SIMPLIFYING THINGS AND THE IMPORTANCE OF REASON IN THE FAITH. THESE KIND OF CONTEMPORARY THEMES, CATHOLIC ENLIGHTENMENT WAS REALLY DEVELOPING LONG BEFORE US. >> Fr. Pacwa: YEAH. IT'S NOT A CATHOLIC APPROACH EXACTLY, BUT IT IS USED BY A LOT OF CATHOLICS. WHEN YOU LOOK AT EVEN THE MUSIC OF THE 18TH CENTURY, YOU START TO HEAR THIS VERY MATHEMATICAL AND PRECISE TYPE OF MUSIC THAT WE ASSOCIATED WITH THAT PERIOD BEING USED PRIMARILY FOR THE CHURCHES. IT WAS NOT JUST -- >> IT'S A GREAT EXAMPLE OF THE CATHOLIC ENLIGHTENMENT >> Fr. Pacwa: EXACTLY. AND HE WROTE IN, VERY SECULAR OPERAS, BUT HE ALSO WROTE ABSOLUTELY STUNNING BEAUTIFUL MASSES. THAT'S ONE AREA WHERE IT'S MEANT TO ENGAGE IN THIS SPIRITUAL LIFE OF PEOPLE AND IT RESONATED. >> YEAH, THAT'S GREAT. ONE OF THE GREAT TEXTS OF THE CATHOLIC ENLIGHTENMENT, 1746, BY AN ITALIAN PRIEST AND ARCHIVIST, AND ARCHEOLOGIST, KNOWN FOR THE FRAGMENT, ALL OF THIS LIST OF NEW TESTAMENT BOOKS THAT WE HAVE ON RECORD. >> AND BY THE WAY SO FOLKS UNDERSTAND, HE DISCOVERED THAT MANUSCRIPT AND IT GOES BACK TO A LIST IN THE 180'S A.D. JUST REMARKABLE HE DISCOVERED THAT. >> BRILLIANT MAN. HE WROTE A BOOK AND TRANSLATED ALL OVER EUROPE, IN THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF COPIES, IT WAS CALLED, REASONABLENESS AND DEVOTION. HIS IDEA WAS THAT WE NEED TO SEE THE IMPORTANCE OF REASON FOR OUR, NOT JUST THEOLOGY BUT EVEN OUR SPIRITUAL LIVES. AND YOU HAVE A TENDENCY IN CERTAIN KINDS OF CATHOLICS, TOWARD SUPERFICIALITY AND SUPERSTITION EVEN, MAYBE EVEN SCRUPULOSITY. THESE SORT OF THINGS. AND HE'S SEEING THESE AND HE'S REALIZING, WHAT WE NEED IN AN EDUCATION IN REASON SO PEOPLE ARE DEEPENING THEIR FAITH AND CONNECTING IT TO OTHER PARTS OF THEIR HUMANITY, NOT SORT OF GETTING OFF INTO SOME OF THESE TANGENTS WHICH ARE ALMOST AN EXCESS OF RELIGION WHICH IS HOW SUPERSTITION IS DEFINED. WE NEED TO SORT OF BALANCE VERY DEEP, FAITH AND REASON, AND THIS BOOK WAS A BESTSELLER, YOU COULD SAY, OF THE 18TH CENTURY. >> Fr. Pacwa: WE NEED TO TAKE A LITTLE BREAK. LET'S COME BACK AND WE'LL BE BACK IN JUST A COUPLE OF MINUTES, DR. JOSEPH STUART FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF MARY, IN BISMARCK, NORTH DAKOTA. YOU CAN CONTACT THEM BY GOING TO UMARY.EDU. AND WE'RE DISCUSSING HIS BOOK, RETHINKING THE ENLIGHTENMENT - FAITH IN THE AGE OF REASON. IT IS ITEM # 8227 AND YOU CAN GET THAT AT ewtnRC.com. WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT DEALING WITH THE ENLIGHTENMENT AND THIS CAN HELP US UNDERSTAND HOW TO DEAL WITH OUR OWN AGE. (THEME MUSIC) (THEME MUSIC) >> LOOK AT THE ENLIGHTENMENT OF THE 18TH CENTURY AND RELATIONSHIP TO CHRISTIAN FAITH, SO THEN WE CAN LEARN ABOUT IT. ONE OF THE LAST THINGS THAT WE AT LEAST TOUCH ON BEFORE GOING TO SOME SPECIFICS. THIS RETREAT. YOU DESCRIBED A THIRD STRATEGY BESIDES THE CONFLICT ESPECIALLY THAT WAS TRUE IN FRANCE. AND THEN, THE ENGAGEMENT WITH THE ENLIGHTENMENT THAT WE SEE IN GERMANY AND ITALY. ALSO, YOU TALKED ABOUT A RETREAT. WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT? >> Guest: YEAH. SO, HERE WE TURN TO THE ENGLISH-SPEAKING WORLD, MAINLY ENGLAND, SCOTLAND AND THE COLONIES BEFORE THEY ARE INDEPENDENT, THE UNITED STATES. HERE, THIS IS A PLACE OF WHAT I CALL THE PRACTICAL ENLIGHTENMENT. IT WAS AN ENLIGHTENMENT OF TRADESMEN, INVENTORS, LIKE BENJAMIN FRANKLIN, JUST PRACTICAL. THEY WERE NOT TALKING ABOUT HIGH IDEAS. THEY JUST WANTED TO MAKE BETTER WAYS TO LIVE. THEY WANTED TO GET THEIR STREETS PAVED, LIGHTS ON THE STREETS, AND THAT KIND OF THING >> Fr. Pacwa: IT'S IN THIS PERIOD THAT YOU SEE THE INVENTION OF THE STEAM ENGINE IN THE BEGINNING OF THE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION THAT COMES FROM THAT. I MEAN, VERY MUCH PRACTICAL AND ECONOMIC. AND I WOULD SAY, ADAM SMITH IS PART OF THAT AS WELL WITH HIS IDEAS OF ECONOMY. >> Guest: THAT'S RIGHT. PRACTICAL MINDEDNESS IN HUMAN AFFAIRS, IN ENGINEERING AND IN POLITICAL. WE'LL TALK ABOUT THAT LATER, POLITICAL. PRACTICAL. NOT UTOPIAN DREAMING OF PERFECT SOCIETIES OR GOVERNMENTS. IT WAS, HOW CAN WE CREATE A TOLERABLE ORDER AND FREEDOM IN OUR COUNTRY. THAT'S THE ENGLISH-SPEAKING WORLD, ONE OF OUR VIRTUES, ONE OF THE GOOD THINGS ABOUT US. ANYWAY, IN THE MIDST OF THIS, THIS PRACTICAL ENLIGHTENMENT, INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION GOING ON, CHRISTIANS MANY OF THEM TO PRESERVE THE FAITH WERE PRACTICING WHAT I CALL A RETREAT. NOT SO MUCH IN A MILITARY SENSE BUT A MOVEMENT INWARD WHICH THEY ARE GOING TO FOCUS ON BUILDING UP THE FAITH STARTING WITHIN THE SOULS AND IN THEIR FAMILIES AND RADIATING OUT TO THE FAMILIES, PARISHES, RELIGIOUS INSTITUTIONS AROUND THEM. SO, THE IMAGE THAT I LIKE TO USE, 18TH CENTURY TERM CALLED HOUSEHOLDING. BASICALLY, THIS MEANS TAKING CARE OF YOUR HOUSEHOLD, BOTH THE MAN AND THE WOMAN. AND NOW THAT INCLUDED OF COURSE, THEIR CHILDREN. BUT LOTS OF TIMES, THEY HAD APPRENTICES LIVING WITH THEM, SERVANTS, RELATIVES. AND THE HOUSEHOLD WAS THE BASIC SOCIAL AND REALLY EVEN SPIRITUAL UNIT OF SOCIETY. EVERYBODY'S GOAL IN THE 18TH CENTURY WAS TO BE IN A HOUSEHOLD, VERY DIFFERENT THAN TODAY. MARRIAGE WAS SOMETHING HIGHLY ESTEEMED. SO, NURTURING LIFE WITHIN THE HOUSEHOLDS, BOTH IN MATERIAL SENSE AND SPIRITUAL SENSE, NURTURING LIFE TRYING TO INTEGRATE FAITH INTO ALL ASPECTS OF LIFE, THAT WAS A KEY OF THIS RETREAT STRATEGY. AND WHAT'S REALLY FASCINATING, FATHER, WE CAN TAKE A LOOK AT CERTAIN FAMILIES, THAT WE HAVE ENOUGH HISTORIC CALL RECORDS TO STUDY HOW THAT INWARD RETREAT THEN EXPLODED OUTWARD TO THE REST OF SOCIETY IN SORT OF A CREATIVE EVANGELICAL MOVEMENT BOTH IN A CATHOLIC AND PROTESTANT SENSE ACROSS EUROPE. >> Fr. Pacwa: IT'S AN INTERESTING PHENOMENA TO LOOK IN THE AMERICAN COLONIES ABOUT 10 YEARS OR SO, BEFORE THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION, THERE WAS THIS GREAT AWAKENING, A SPIRITUAL REVIVALISM THAT FED A GOOD NUMBER OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTIONARIES AND THAT THAT PRACTICAL REVOLUTION, AND PRACTICAL GOVERNMENTAL CHECKS AND BALANCES AND WILLINGNESS TO FIGHT FOR ONE'S FREEDOM WAS IN MANY WAYS MOTIVATED BY THAT RELIGIOUS CONVERSION. SO, THEY FED EACH OTHER. BUT IT CAME BEFORE THAT. AND ALSO, YOU SEE THAT BY THE END OF THE 18TH CENTURY IN CATHOLICISM, THE GREATEST PERIOD OF MISSIONARY WORK BEGAN. A WHOLE NEW FLOURISHING OF ORDERS, DURING THE FRENCH REVOLUTION, YOU HAD A DECREASE IN PRIESTLY AND RELIGIOUS VOCATIONS PARTLY BECAUSE THEY WERE KILLED. THAT WILL STOP YOU EVERY TIME. >> Guest: THAT'S RIGHT >> Fr. Pacwa: BUT IT WAS ONLY THE SECOND TIME OF DECLINE OF RELIGIOUS ORDERS AND -- DECLINE OF PRIESTLY ORDERS AND RELIGIOUS VOCATIONS. AND IN BOTH CASES AFTERWARDS, THERE WAS A REVITALIZATION THAT WENT OUT TO THE WORLD THAT EVERYBODY ELSE WAS DISCOVERING. >> Guest: YEAH, THAT'S RIGHT. AND EVEN WITHIN EUROPE AND BEFORE THE FRENCH REVOLUTION, YOU HAD ORDERS OF REDEMPTORISTS, ALPHONSE LIGOURI GROWING BY LEAPS AND BOUNDS AND THEY WERE ORIENTED WITH MISSIONARIES AT HOME. OUR OWN EUROPEAN PEOPLE NEED TO HEAR THE GOSPEL. AND LOUIS DE MONTFORT IN FRANCE, HIS COMPANY OF MAR MARY, FOUNDED IN 1805, WESTERN PART OF FRANCE WERE WORKING THROUGH THE DECADES BEFORE THE FRENCH REVOLUTION. AND THIS IS, OF COURSE, WITH THE VENDEE HAPPENS AGAINST THE FRENCH REVOLUTION BECAUSE OF THE INCREDIBLE WORK THAT LOWEST DE MONTFORT DID DECADES BEFORE THIS. >> YOU GAVE US SOME VERY INTERESTING CHARACTERS FROM THE CONFLICT. WE'VE DONE A FEW PROGRAMS ABOUT THAT VENDEE REVOLT AND WHEN THE GOVERNMENT OF FRANCE TRIED TO GET RID OF THE PRIESTS, AND NUNS AND STARTED EXECUTING THEM, STOPPING THEM FROM CELEBRATING MASS AND LOCKING UP THE CHURCHES. LOWEST DE MONTFORT CONVERTS TO THIS REVITALIZED CATHOLICISM STOOD FIRM AGAINST THE REVOLUTION. AND THE FRENCH GOVERNMENT IN PARIS SAW TO THE KILLING, JUST SLAUGHTER, THE FIRST GENOCIDE IN EUROPE'S HISTORY. AND COUPLE HUNDRED THOUSAND PEOPLE WERE KILLED BY THEIR OWN GOVERNMENT IN THE NAME OF THE SECULAR ENLIGHTENMENT. >> Guest: THAT'S RIGHT. YEAH, THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT. I VISITED A SMALL TOWN IN WESTERN FRANCE, A GIANT CRUCIFIX IN THE MIDDLE OF THE TIME AND I ASKED WHAT WAS IT FOR AND THEY SAID IT REPRESENTED A MASS GRAVE 1200 PEOPLE DURING THE KILLING OF THE PEOPLE IN THE VENDEE, VENDEE AND YOU CAN SEE, WE HAD VIDEOS DONE ABOUT THAT REVOLT. AT EWTN, YOU CAN LOOK IT UP. AND NOW, AS THE FRENCH CARMELITE SISTERS, TELL US ABOUT THAT. >> SURE, THE CARMELITES ACTUALLY STARTS THE BOOK, IT'S SO BEAUTIFUL AND SO DRAMATIC AND BRINGS US INTO THE HEART OF THE CONFLICT BETWEEN CHRISTIANITY AND THE ENLIGHTENMENT. I'LL DEFINE IN THREE TERMS QUICKLY BEFORE TELLING THEIR STORY. THE HEART OF THE CONFLICT HAS TO DO WITH RELIGION, WHETHER WE NEED IT OR NOT. AND SOME IN FRANCE THOUGHT WE DON'T. THE SECOND PART OF THE CONFLICT WAS HUMAN NATURE. THEY WOULD SAY, IT'S NOT FALLEN. IT'S PERFECT. SO, WE JUST NEED TO REARRANGE THE GOVERNMENT SO WE CAN THEN PERFECT HUMAN SOCIETY. THAT'S OBVIOUSLY A CONFLICT WITH ORIGINAL SIN AND CHRISTIANITY. AND THE THIRD CONFLICT WAS THE OVER THE NATURE OF REASON ITSELF. WHETHER OR NOT REASON IS AN INDIVIDUAL FACULTY OR WHETHER WE NEED OTHER PEOPLE, THE COMMUNITY AROUND US, LIKE THE CHURCH, TO HELP US FORM OUR REASON. AND THESE CONFLICTING ENLIGHTENERS, I WOULD SAY, REJECTED ALL THREE OF THOSE POINTS. IT UNDERMINES CATHOLICISM. >> AND OFTEN I LIKE TO SAY THAT ROUSSEAU REJECTED THE DOCTRINE OF ORIGINAL SIN COULD ONLY DO THAT BECAUSE HE NEVER RAISED A 2-YEAR-OLD! >> Guest: THAT'S RIGHT >> Fr. Pacwa: HE WAS THE FATHER OF MANY CHILDREN BUT HE WAS NOT MARRIED TO THEIR MOTHERS AND HE NEVER BOTHERED TO RAISE THEM. HAD HE DONE SO, HE MAY HAVE RETHOUGHT ORIGINAL SIN. >> THAT'S RIGHT. HE DROPPED HIS KIDS OFF AT THE FOUNDING HOSPITAL AND SAID GOODBYE. HE WAS TOO BUSY WRITING BOOKS ABOUT RAISING KIDS, WHICH IS SUPER IRONIC >> Fr. Pacwa: THAT'S THE REALITY. SO, HOW DID THIS CONFLICT THEN DEVELOP? >> Guest: YEAH, OKAY. SO, THEN THE FRENCH REVOLUTIONARY REGIME BY 1792 IS BECOMING HOSTILE TO THE CHURCH AND WAS GOING TO CLOSE DOWN RELIGIOUS ORDERS, CHANGE THE NAMES OF STREETS FROM SAINTS TO PAGAN CLASSICAL FIGURES. AND THESE FAMOUS CARMELITES OF COME PEEN, NORTH OF PARIS FELL INTO THE CROSSHAIRS OF THE GOVERNMENT PARTLY BECAUSE THEY CONTINUED TO LIVE THEIR RELIGIOUS LIFE IN HIDING. CONTINUING, THOUGH, EVEN THOUGH IT WAS ILLEGAL. THEY GOT PUT ON TRIAL. AND DATE OF THEIR ACCUSATION WAS JULY 16, 1794, THE FEAST DAY OF OUR LADY OF MOUNT CARMEL. AND THEN, THE NEXT DAY, THEY WERE PUT ON TRIAL, ACCUSED OF FANATICISM, WHICH WHEN ASKED WHAT THE JUDGE MEANT, HE SAID, WELL, BASICALLY IT'S BECAUSE YOU ARE CATHOLIC. AND THEY SAID, OKAY. THEY HAD A SMILE ON THEIR FACE BECAUSE THEY KNEW THEY WERE GOING TO DIE AS MARTYRS FOR SURE. AND THEY WERE TAKEN OUT. WHAT'S AMAZING, THERE WERE A LOT OF PEOPLE KILLED IN THE GUILLOTINE IN FRENCH REVOLUTION. AND NORMALLY, THEY ARE BROUGHT TO THE GUILLOTINE IN CARTS AND STREETS ARE SURROUNDED BY PEOPLE SWEARING, CURSING, YELLING, MEAN, AND THROWING ROTTEN VEGETABLES. BUT IN THIS CASE, THEY WERE SILENT. THESE 16 NUNS, IN THEIR HABITS, WERE SINGING THROUGH THE STREETS OF PARIS, MISERERE, SALVE REGINA, VESPERS, SINGING IN THE BEAUTIFUL WORDS, PRAISE OF GOD AND ASKING FOR GOD'S MERCY. THEY WERE SACRED WORDS THAT WELD UP FROM THEIR HEARTS FROM THE VERY DEPTHS OF CHRISTIAN CULTURE BY THIS POINT WAS JUST A MEMORY FOR SO MANY PEOPLE. IT SILENCED THE CROWD. AND THE SISTERS WENT TO THE STREETS OF PARIS, WERE BROUGHT TO THE GUILLOTINE. AND THEY BEGAN TO RENEW THEIR VOWS AND THE EXECUTIONER GAVE THEM A LITTLE EXTRA TIME AS A COMMUNITY TO PRAY TOGETHER. STILL SILENCE. AND I MEAN, THIS IS UNPRECEDENTED. NOBODY HAD SEEN AN ENTIRE RELIGIOUS COMMUNITY EXECUTED BIKE THIS BEFORE. SO, MOTHER SUPERIOR STOOD AT THE BOTTOM OF THE STEPS AND SHE CALLED MOTHER TERESA AND ST. AUGUSTINE, HER NAME, AMAZING WOMAN CALLED THE YOUNGEST MEMBER FORWARD FIRST. MEANWHILE THEY ARE ALL SINGING, AND THE YOUNGEST KNEELS DOWN AND KISSES THE STATUE OF MARY IN HER HAND. STANDS UP AND LOOKS MOTHER SUPERIOR IN THE EYE. PERMISSION TO DIE, MOTHER. AND MOTHER SUPERIOR SAYS, GO, MY DAUGHTER. AND SHE ASCENDS THE STEPS. SHE WAIVES ASIDE THE ASSISTANT WHO IS GOING TO HELP HER IN THAT POSITION BECAUSE SHE WENT DOWN HERSELF, LAID IN THE PRONE POSITION WHICH SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN IN WHEN SHE PRONOUNCED HER VOWS. SHE'S PRONE AND SLID UNDER THE YOLK OF THE GUILLOTINE. AND ALL OF THE OTHER SISTERS ARE SINGING AND THE CROWD IS JUST WAITING WITH BAITED BREATH. THIS IS UNBELIEVABLE WHAT THEY ARE WITNESSING. MEANWHILE, SISTER CONSTANTS, THE YOUNGEST SISTER, PSALM 117 ALL THE NATIONS PRAISE THE LORD AS SHE IS PUT IN POSITION TO DIE. AND THE BLADE COMES DOWN AND THERE'S ONE LESS VOICE SINGING. AND THEN, THE NEXT SISTER COMES UP AND THERE'S ONE LAST VOICE SINGING. AND FINALLY, THE LAST VOICE OF MOTHER TERESA OF ST. AUGUSTINE IS ALL THAT'S SINGING, HER LONE VOICE HAUNTING OVER THE CROWD. AND SHE AND HER SISTERS, YOU KNOW, FATHER, SPECIFICALLY THEY WERE OFFERING UP THEIR LIVES AS A SACRIFICE TO GOD TO END THIS REIGN OF TERROR DURING THE FRENCH REVOLUTION, TO END IT, AND THE CHURCH IN FRANCE. HISTORIANS KNOW THAT FROM THE RECORDS AND THINGS. SO, WHEN SHE DIED AND ALL IS SILENT AND THEIR BODIES WERE STRIPPED AND THROWN INTO A MASS GRAVE, 10 DAYS LATER, THE REIGN OF TERROR ENDED! IT ENDED WITH THE DEATH OF ROGUES PIERRE HIMSELF, THE MAN IN CHARGE WHO ORGANIZED AND ORDERED ALL THIS. IT ENDED WITH HIS EXECUTION AT THE GUILLOTINE. >> Fr. Pacwa: YEAH. THIS IS, YOU KNOW, WHERE, ON ONE HAND CARMELITES EPITOMIZE THE RETREAT FROM THE WORLD. AND ON THE OTHER HAND, THESE MARTYRS ENGAGE THIS SPIRITUAL WAR HEAD-ON, AND FROM THE SECULAR VIEW, THE GOVERNMENT WON BY KILLING THEM. FROM OUR SPIRITUAL VIEW, THEY ARE THE MARTYRS WEARING THE CROWN OF MARTYRDOM AND CARRYING THE PALM OF VICTORY AS MARTYRS. AND THAT'S HOW WE DEPICT THEM. AND JUST SO FOLKS KNOW, THERE'S AN OPERA ABOUT THESE SISTERS AND THEIR MARTYRDOM. NO OPERA IS OUT THERE PRAISING ROGUES PIERRE AS FAR AS I KNOW. HE'S THE BIG LOSER. >> Guest: HE WAS. YOU'RE RIGHT. THE SISTERS, THEIR SPIRITUAL RETREAT AND THEIR COMMUNITY, CYST EARL LOVE FOR EACH OTHER AND CHRIST IS WHAT GAVE THEM THE STRENGTH TO WALK INTO THE VERY JAWS OF CONFLICT AT THE BEGINNING OF THE BOOK. AND THIS WAS TO SET UP THE STAGE FOR UNDERSTANDING WHAT THIS CONFLICT WAS ABOUT IN THE 18TH CENTURY. >> Fr. Pacwa: TODAY, WE HAVE FOLKS WHO, WITH CERTAIN GOOD SENSE, TALK ABOUT MAKING A RETREAT IN THE FACE OF OUR CONTEMPORARY WORLD. THERE WAS A BOOK THAT WAS WRITTEN, CALLED THE BENEDICT OPTION. WE HAVE TO BE AS SUBTLE AS I THINK YOUR BOOK IS IN RECOGNIZING THAT WE ARE IN DIFFERENT KINDS OF RELATIONSHIP WITH THE MODERN WORLD. WE HAVE TO STAND IN CONFLICT WITH THE FORCES OF DEATH. IT MAY NOT BE ROGUES PIERRE WITH A GUILLOTINE, BUT THERE'S PLENTY OF POLITICIANS, PLENTY OF THEM LIKE ROGUES PIERRE WHO ARE RAISED CATHOLIC BUT ARE PUSHING FOR ABORTION AND EUTHANASIA AND ARE JUST AS DEADLY AS CHILDREN IN THE WOMB OR TO THE ELDERLY SICK AS ROGUES PIERRE WAS TO HIS ENEMIES >> Guest: THAT'S RIGHT >> Fr. Pacwa: AND WE HAVE TO ENGAGE IN THAT CONFLICT. BUT THEN THERE ARE OTHER THINGS IN THE MODERN WORLD, OUR CONCERN FOR THE POOR, OUR CONCERN FOR AND MAKING SURE THAT SLAVERY ENDS. THERE ARE LOTS OF ENGAGEMENT THAT WE CAN DO AND SHOULD DO, ALSO INTELLECTUALLY. AS WELL AS, IN SOME CASES, NOT MUCH WE CAN DO, AND RETREAT IS THE BEST OPTION. >> Fr. Pacwa: THAT'S GREAT. THE BENEDICT OPTION, WHAT AN AMAZING IDEA AND CONTRIBUTION TO THE DISCUSSION FOR SURE. I THINK THAT MY RESPONSE WOULD BE THAT I WOULD SHARE BISHOP ROBERT BARON SAID OF THAT BOOK ONE TIME, DO WE NEED A BENEDICT OPTION? YES! BUT ALSO, WE SHOULD BE DEAF ENOUGH IN READING THE SIGNS OF THE TIME AND SPIRITUALLY NIMBLE ENOUGH TO SHIFT WHEN NECESSARY TO A MORE, OPEN AND ENGAGING ATTITUDE, UNQUOTE, AND I WOULD ADD, CONFLICT ATTITUDE, WHEN NEEDED. BUT THAT FREE SPIRITUALLY OF BARON'S, THERE'S DIFFERENT PEOPLE WITH DIFFERENT VOCATIONS CATHOLIC POLITICIANS, LAWYERS, DOCTORS, AND BENEDICT OPTION? ARE YOU KIDDING ME! THEY ARE THE FRONT LINE GETTING BLASTED WITH THE MACHINE GUNS IN THE MODERN WORLD. THEY ARE IN A CONFLICT OVER LIE AND WE HAVE TO PRAY FOR THEM, AND SUPPORT THEM AND BE AFFIRMED IN THEIR VOCATION. IF THEY DON'T FIGHT FOR IT, THEN THE NEXT THING THAT HAPPENS, WE WON'T BE ABLE TO HAVE RETREAT EITHER! >> Fr. Pacwa: THAT'S RIGHT. YES. I THINK THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT ELEMENT AND THERE ARE A LOT OF FOLKS WHO ARE IN THIS CONFLICT. WE SEE A CANCEL CULTURE HAS DEVELOPED AND THEY ARE FIGHTING AGAINST ANYBODY WITH IDEAS DIFFERENT THAN THOSE OF LEFT-LEANING PROGRESS. BUT WE HAVE TO ENGAGE WHAT THE IDEAS ACTUALLY ARE, UNDERSTAND THEM, AND WHEN NECESSARY, YOU KNOW, ENGAGE IN THE CONFLICT. >> ONE OF THE LEADING REASONS THAT YOUNG PEOPLE LEAVE THE CHURCH, THEY GET A SENSE OR A FEELING FROM THEIR SCHOOLING OR WHATEVER, THAT SCIENCE OR RELIGION ARE SOMEHOW AT ODDS WITH EACH OTHER. AND THAT'S A TRAGEDY. THAT'S A TRAGEDY THAT'S HAPPENING BECAUSE OF THE FAILURE OF CATHOLICS TO ENGAGE INTELLECTUALLY NOT JUST WITH SCIENCES BUT WITH MODERN WORLD AND MODERN THOUGHT IN GENERAL. IT'S SO IMPORTANT FOR THE YOUNG GENERATION TO SEE THE ELDERS DOING THAT. AND REALIZING THAT JUST A CONFLICTING MENTALITY, IT'S NOT ENOUGH. ACTUALLY WITHOUT THE OTHER, IT STARTS TO MU TATE. AND CATHOLICS TURN INWARD AND ONE CATHOLIC SAYING, OH, YOU ARE NOT REALLY CATHOLIC AND THEY ARGUE OVER, WHAT'S A BETTER WAY TO BE A CATHOLIC AND THEY START TEARING THEMSELVES APART. THAT HAPPENED IN THE 18TH CENTURY, JESUITS, JANSENISTS AND OTHER GROUPS. IT WAS A DISASTER! IN THE 18TH CENTURY, IT MEANT THAT CATHOLICS WERE SO DISUNITED IN FRANCE, IT MEANT THAT THIS CONFLICT OUT OF HAND AND THE SECULARISTS WON, AT LEAST IN FRANCE. WE CAN'T BE CONSTANTLY CONFLICTING. AND ONE WAY TO AVOID THAT IS TO THE WISDOM WE GAIN FROM RETREAT. AND ENGAGING, TRYING TO UNDERSTAND WHERE PEOPLE ARE, WERE THEY ARE AT. INTELLECTUALLY WE CAN HAVE WITH OTHER CATHOLICS, TOO, OTHER CHRISTIANS, TOO, JUDEO CHRISTIAN TRADITION, AND SECULARIST THAT CARE ABOUT THE COMMON GOOD. AND WE NEED TO BE ENGAGED IN THOSE CONVERSATIONS. >> Fr. Pacwa: I TRY TO EMPHASIZE AND TEACH OFTEN THAT WHILE THE TELEVISION COMEDY SERIES, BIG BANG, AND IT HAS LEADING CHARACTER AS ATHEISTIC AND THEY NEVER MENTIONED THAT THE PERSON DISCOVERED THE BIG BANG THEORY IN REAL LIFE WAS A CATHOLIC PRIEST! AND THE FOUNDER OF GENETICS WAS AN AUSTRIAN CATHOLIC PRIEST. THESE ARE THINGS THAT OUR AND THESE ARE THINGS THAT OUR SCHOOLS HAVE, GOOD SCIENCE DEPARTMENT OVER AT THE UNIVERSITY OF MARY >> Guest: YES. >> Fr. Pacwa: AND THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT THING TO HAVE. SO, WE WANT TO HAVE THAT ENGAGEMENT AS WELL. LET ME MENTION, WE'RE GETTING CLOSE TO THE END HERE. AND I WANT TO MENTION THAT YOUR BOOK IS CALLED, RETHINKING THE ENLIGHTENMENT, FAITH IN THE AGE OF REASON, BY DR. JOSEPH STUART AND IT'S AVAILABLE AT ewtnRC.com. THIS IS ITEM 8227. DR. STUART TELLS THE STORY WELL AND I LIKE THE WAY THAT YOU HAVE ESPECIALLY TOLD THE CARMELITES OF CAM PEEN AND IT'S VERY RICH AND SUCCESSFUL FOR FOLKS TO GET THAT BOOK. DR. STUART THANKS FOR BEING WITH US, AND TAKING YOUR TIME. YOU ARE A YOUNG PROFESSOR AND HAVE YOU TO DO ALL OF THE STUFF THAT YOU HAVE TO DO TO PREPARE CLASSES SO I THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US. MAY THE LORD BLESS YOU, ALL OF OUR VIEWERS, TO FIND THAT ENGAGEMENT WITH OUR WORLD TO STAND UP BRAVELY WITHIN THE CONFLICT THAT WE HAVE TO, AND TO TAKE TIME TO RETREAT TO KNOW GOD. MAY THIS GOD BLESS YOU, IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, SON, AND HOLY SPIRIT. AMEN. >> Guest: AMEN. AND THANK YOU SO MUCH. >> Fr. Pacwa: AND WE ASK ALL OF YOU TO KEEP US IN BETWEEN YOUR GAS BILL, CABLE BILL AND ELECTRIC BILL AND WE'LL CONTINUE TO HAVE GREAT GUESTS AND PAY OUR BILLS, TOO! THANK YOU. (THEME MUSIC)
