Exploring the Lord of the Rings, Session 199 Scouting the Lands

[Music] and good evening everybody and welcome back welcome to session number 199 of exploring the lord of the rings um we are uh narrowing in on our 200th class which may we're gonna get reasonably close uh to the departure of the company for the south um so that's um uh anyway that's gonna be really exciting we're getting close to christmas of course it's christmas day uh will be christmas day uh when they set out um but of course that's before we uh uh not christmas day in our time uh but christmas day uh there yes nancy this is um the uh the first time i'm getting old i'm officially old now because uh i uh i i'm wearing my reading glasses on stream for the first i'm kind of like it's you know am i coming out with my glasses here um i've actually been cheating with them for some time but i've been not using them on stream uh but um i've come to the point where like i can't even anymore so yeah i'm wearing my old man glasses probably will be from now on so uh um anyway yeah um so there we are i've never had to wear glasses of any kind my whole life so i've been really lucky for most of my life but now age creeping up with me here but um anyway okay so but let us get quick announcements uh mostly moots uh for the announcements i just wanted to remind folks we've got new england moot coming up very soon indeed now uh we are only a week and a half away from new england moot in durham new hampshire the 25th of september um that's i'm doing uh a a lot of detailed planning of our the digital the remote part of our moot now for our hybrid mode it's going to be really fun uh so looking forward to seeing folks who can attend and to um uh seeing as much as i can of the folks who are attending remotely there as well um however um the uh uh our other our second moot middle moot uh is coming up soon thereafter and i don't wanna i know it's it's easy for me to kind of focus on new england moot because it's coming up first right but uh middle moot is happening only two weeks after that so everybody in the midwest don't forget about middlemoot this year middlemoot is going to be back in waterloo iowa like it was two years ago um and uh really excited to see folks again there also we will be able to um uh we'll be able to uh have uh we'll be doing that in a fully hybrid way as well um but mike drought is speaking at middlemood mike drought is speaking it's gonna be awesome mike is always uh a wonderful uh speaker um so he's gonna it's gonna be mike drought talking about philology really cool so if you can come uh if you're anywhere in the area around iowa um then uh you can if you can get down to iowa then you can come and you can meet mike drought in person um if not you can attend uh digitally and uh hear his address and it's gonna be really cool so anyway you should definitely check that out we have um uh you can go to signumuniversity.org events and find our middle moot page also i think tomorrow is the deadline for proposals for presentations uh for middlemoot so definitely definitely look into that asap if you want to be involved there so that's going to be a lot of fun so and then november 6th is going to be beimut uh out in berkeley california so that is uh uh that is getting closer as well so the other thing that i did want to remind folks of is that we are now eight days away from starting the nature of middle earth um the um the nature of middle earth subtitle tolkien likes math um so uh help us crunch the numbers uh and uh take a deep dive into tolkien's later world building um it's uh going to be a lot of fun so please so uh so we're doing we're starting this uh with the myth guard academy next wednesday so next wednesday night not not tomorrow but the week after that uh wednesday september 22nd a date that i hope you take note of we will be starting our discussion we're going to begin by discussing the first five chapters the chapters are really short if you've seen them already i know it's frodo's birthday too but jordan of course frodo in his own writings in the lord of the rings has biased me towards thinking of it as bilbo's birthday um but um uh anyway yeah uh cook of wooden miner yeah this is you know you just bought the book and it's the first one you'll be reading along with in real time yeah i'm actually restricting myself i'm not reading ahead um so we're going to discuss the first five chapters next week and i've only read the first five chapters so don't tell me anything about the rest of the book we're gonna i'm gonna be we're gonna be kind of discovering it together and i'm excited to uh um uh to to to discover this uh with you guys um so anyway it's gonna be it's gonna be fun so the nature of middle earth uh nathan if this is the first time you're hearing of this let me just talking sort of this is edited by carl hostetter but it's it's actual writings from tolkien these are notes uh and revisions and things basically this is from like the 50s and 60s primarily 1950s and 1960s after the lord of the rings when he was in that prolonged period of reworking the silmarillion material um you if this is a wonderful follow-up from the uh morgoth's ring discussion that we did last year um it's that extended period of time in which tolkien was really digging in and doing world building really consistent world building and he was changing a lot of the rules and a lot of his ideas you will see as we began to see uh in morgoth's ring and as i think i already in chapter five can see even more clearly uh only just in chapters one through five of the nature of middle earth why he never rewrote the silmarillion because so much he was going to change so much like the entire world is sort of changing all around it so um anyway we're um uh we're we're going to be digging into this stuff so this is all this is and and this is so exciting because this is the first time since the peoples of middle earth was published the final volume of the history of middle earth this is the first time in decades decades that we have gotten brand new tolkien middle-earth material that we have never seen before and that is just unbelievably exciting um yeah cook of wood miner just uh uh did a um uh provided a link to the uh ask me anything that carl hostetter did on reddit yeah yeah actually uh it's funny cook i'm um i'm actually gonna do an ask me anything uh on reddit uh on the same thing the tolkien fans read it uh subreddit there i'm gonna do an ask anything there sometime probably later this month i haven't i need to decide on a date but um i'll let you guys know when the date's gonna be but i'm gonna do that later on this month they just invited me to do that it's gonna be fun um but um anyway yeah yeah so um but anyway okay so again i don't have the link for that yet um but i'll be posting that it'll probably be posted tomorrow is my hope um uh we're gonna are gonna have a slightly experimental interface uh for the nature of middle earth class that's gonna be entertaining but anyway um we'll that'll be tomorrow so but next wednesday september 22nd is going to be the date we'll start our discussions of the nature of middle earth so all right um but let's jump back into the text here last time we were looking at the passage of time and then that fascinating description of that red star in the southern sky balefully looking over the edge peeking over the edge of rivendell right and glaring down at frodo uh showing us i still suspect more about frodo's own uh sort of imaginative frame of mind then about uh hobbit notions of astronomy that is i really i i still believe that he mars was what he was seeing in the sky um but again i i don't see any reason to believe that the hobbits necessarily unilaterally generally you know culturally see mars as um you know particularly baleful or or whatever um that i think was was an association by frodo that he was associating it with the eye of sauron um uh in that moment i think you know had he not been contemplating a journey into the south into the heart of the black land in order to cast the ring into the fire he probably wouldn't have made that association i think with mars in the same way um but um yeah yeah um so nathan i am not i i could believe that it's a star i think it's probably mars um i think it's probably mars both because of the color um and because of the sort of singularity of it right it's not mentioned as in the context of any other constellation um it is of course possible there are some other red giants in the sky that are visible and look reddish to the naked eye like aldebaran for instance um which i think was suggested last time but um i would not believe that it's betelgeuse of all of the stars that it could be i would say that it i would i would not say um that it's betelgeuse because orion is the constellation that we've already um that we've already seen um yeah red borgill uh i believe uh is is over there and he didn't think about it that way but but remember orion is you know menomakar with his shining belt um that is uh one it's an anti not anti-sauron anti-morgoth constellation really but um uh anyway i didn't mean singularity in that sense jj uh i'm not suggesting that mars is a black hole um but uh anyway anyway so um it's um anyway as i say that's why i i i so i do think it's mars but i it almost certainly couldn't be betelgeuse um because he would not be associating it and borgil i believe by the way to be aldebaran not betelgeuse um because of course aldebaran being in taurus is right next to uh orion um so when um when red borgill rises and then metal makhar with his shining belt i i think that um um i think that red borgill is probably aldebaran uh is has always been my interpretation but um anyway okay um but that's that's not what we came here to talk about tonight uh so um now we get into we go from the moving of time and we begin we begin to think be to begin thinking about um geography so off to the journeys of the scouts the hobbits had been nearly two months in the house of elrond and november had gone by with the last shreds of autumn and december was passing when the scouts began to return now let's pause here for a second um because this of course picks up on some of the discussion we had last time about the um uh about the the progression of time and their consciousness of the progression of time um and i think it's fairly clear that um now it's a little bit hard because you could say well this is written by frodo or sam probably frodo later on after the fact right and so you know he knows in retrospect the date when they set out and so in describing this from afar right like from his sitting room in bag end after they returned to the shire rather than during you know in this time in rivendell he knows how many months has gone by so the fact that it says november has gone by in december was passing doesn't prove that they were aware of that and yet the description of it i think does suggest it we saw that in the last passage they were very aware even in a sense perhaps more aware than they might have been in the shire i'm not sure about that i don't think we can prove that but um anyway certainly no less conscious of the passing of the seasons right of the changing over of the seasons and we're getting that again november had gone by with the last shreds of autumn um we were looking at the change in the quality of the light we were looking at um autumn rolling in and rolling out right as their uh as they're sitting there um and i this seems to me just to be sort of continuing the same thing that is uh before the description didn't have any dates attached to it that there were no calendar references uh in the earlier passage the ones we were talking about last week so this sentence as a transitional sentence seems to be kind of glancing back over that same passage of time that was described in the previous section and now it's attaching calendar bits to it right so that you know calendar references so that we can actually see uh the the time the time passing here um yeah yeah um fourth thoughtless exactly this stands in contrast to the beginnings of spring coming in lorien without sam the gardener even noticing yes yes exactly um and i wonder if he would frodo the narrator that is would even describe it in this way had they had that same experience of you know when it comes mid-december or late december for them to be like wow like you know i you know i remember we were there for three or four days but i would swear it had never been two months or three months but anyway yeah yeah so but anyway now the scouts are beginning to return they've been nearly two months in the house of elrond yes sorry i was skipping the time that they were on the road between rivendell and uh weather i was thinking of weathertop at the beginning of october in my head when i said almost three months then but of course i was skipping over the time that they spent on the road so yes they've been nearly two months in the house of elrond now we've got the scouts beginning to return some had gone north beyond the springs of the horwell into the attenmores and others had gone west and with the help of aragorn and the rangers had searched the lands far down the gray flood as far as tharbot where the old north road crosses the river by a ruined town many had gone east and south and some of these had crossed the mountains and entered murkwood while others had climbed the pass at the sources of the gladden river and had come down into wilderland over the gladden fields and so at length had reached the old home of radagast at ross goldball radagast was not there and they had returned over the high pass that was called the red horn gate the sons of elrond eledon and el rohir were the last to return they had made a great journey passing down the silver load into a strange country but of their errand they would not speak to any save to elrond okay um all right so let's map this because i don't want to do this in my head so scout set number one some had gone north beyond the springs of the well into the etenmores okay so i have a map um so here we are in rivendell right um they've gone north so this is the river horwell the river horowell you'll remember is the one that's crossed by the last bridge uh the one where glorffindle left his stone the one where gorfindle found several servants of the enemy waiting there and they withdrew and he pursued them remember um so this is the horowell so the source of the river horwell is way up here in the hethiglir that is the misty mountains um uh up north and so the attenmores as you can see are just north of that and so that tracks with what was just described here beyond the springs of horwell into the etimores so this is where they go so these go north now remember gandalf had said the land up here which looks blank right i mean on on the middle earth map here we've got the troll shaws and a little forest down here but notice that this this map is very uh narrative centric around here that is we get lots of the detail almost every detail of the path of the narrative right so like here's hobbiton and the brandywine bridge and the old forest and the barrow downs and brie and even the chetwood and the midwater marshes individually labeled right and then the weather hills and weathertop and the last bridge right and you know so that you can the troll shaws with the forest that they emerge from in order to get to the forward of brewing in right so you can see that almost everything that's mentioned in the narrative almost every geographical portion that's mentioned in the narrative is sort of labeled so this this middle part in the area of rivendell as i say is very kind of narrative centric um above north of rivendell on this map it's just a blank space essentially between rivendell and the horowell but recall that gandalf told us that this terrain up here is so bad that he had to he had to like dismount he had to let go of shadow facts shadow fx couldn't even go with him um in that which means i assume there's like climbing that has to go on right um uh up here like you know again it's it's just like not horse country right you can't even ride a horse through there so the scouts are going presumably on foot right through this very rough terrain all the way up to the horwell and up into the ettenmores uh which of course is troll country um so all the way up through so and notice so they're going more than halfway to angband right or angband no that's further north angmar i apologize uh more they're going more than halfway up to angmar of old um if you see like they're literally about 60 of the way to karndoom from rivendell right so this is this is uh a long ways right um a long ways north that they're going all through rough and very dangerous terrain um and all on foot okay all right so that's our first leg now let's go back so first i just want to see it all on the map and then we'll think about it because my question is going to be exactly flamma for what you're saying why are they doing this um that's what i'm hoping we can figure out so okay uh next others had gone west and with the help of aragorn and the rangers had searched the lands far down the gray flood as far as farbad where the old north road crossed the river by a ruined town okay so we're talking about here tharbot so the gua flow the grey flood um that's where the the bruinin and the well come together right so those two the one that's crossed by the fort and the one that's crossed by the last bridge merge right down here uh in uh you know more southerly or central area door right and become the guathlow the gray flood which is a pretty significant river which here it goes comes down all the way uh to the river this was a major uh navigable river for the numenoreans this was an important river in numenorean days in the second age when they were coming uh to middle earth that's why there's like no more forests down here uh and there used to be uh but anyway uh that's a different story so tharabad is here at the crossing so yeah nathan they traveled that far and back um really far this is a long journey all the way down to tharbad and note they don't just go straight down to tharbat i don't think like it's not they're just like following the river bruin in and then you know keep following it down to tharbat they go west so like some went north to the antomores some go west and explored the lands as far as farbad so i think and we're talking about aragorn and the rangers here are the ones that are helping with this i believe that they're basically covering this whole triangle of land basically between the road right this is the greenway that comes up north and there's a separate road that crosses by sarn ford and heads up in this direction right um sarn ford over the brandywine which gets alluded to several times but of course we never actually see it um but anyway this this uh this kind of triangle of land between the greenway from tharbad between between you know so bordered on one side by the the the greenway between tharbot and brie the east-west road and the gray flood um that's i believe the area that they're scouting aragorn and the other rangers here primarily i agree drastic they're probably looking for boromir's horse of course fruitlessly because it went home but anyway yeah yeah brick tails you're right on the afternoon after the council aragorn left with the sons of elrond but in this description we have aragorn south and west with the rangers and the suns going over the mountains yeah they did it didn't mean they went in the same direction or like that they just went to the one place um you know he was i don't know he didn't go with them um all the way to where they were going but anyway that's a it's a big it's a big area for them to cover here but that's the so we've got the northerly ones who go up to the atomors the southerly ones who go down to towards all the way down to tharbod we're told all right okay uh many had gone east and south and some of these had crossed the mountains and entered murkwood while others had climbed the pass at the sources of the gladden river and had come down into wilderland over the gladden fields and so at length had reached the old home of radagast at ross gobel okay first we get some had crossed the mountains that entered mercury okay so here we are in rivendell i assume crossed the mountains and entered merckwood means straight across the mountains like do do east from rivendell right so over the high pass up here right so some of them just crossed straight over the mountains and went on into uh merkwood right uh south of the carrick across the old ford and like on the old forest road or something right um and we don't know exactly where they're headed but that looks like that first group that we're seeing through there right but then there was a second group that went south first right they jogged south a little bit and then went over the mountains here at another pass coming out by the source of the gladden river which is down here about halfway between um like you know the carrick and the high pass and dimmer dale down here in the south right so they went over here and they went down the gladden river to the gladden fields which are right here and they went down and then they met royal scope and now ross global's not on this map but it's down around it's down around here right so wait did i not say the gladin river um yeah so okay okay anyway ross goble is somewhere around here so we got some that just make a b line for merkwood by which i suspect they it means going to actually talk to the um to the what else in markwood right um i mean it doesn't say that it just says um some of these had crossed the mountains and entered mercury like maybe they didn't come back but i mean we we're told they're coming back so but apparently they entered merkwood i don't know how far they went into merckwood or why we don't know why they did any of these things but again i'm assuming that those who made a bee line for merckwood didn't just go to the edge of the forest look around and turn back they they entered it right so if you're entering it up here this is the northern half of mirkwood and so i assume that it's um you know getting in touch with randul and his people over there we're not told that explicitly but i'm gonna go on and guess that they actually connected with you know the allies in north uh north uh merkwood over here those who went down the gladden river they went i don't know that they were necessarily like that ross gobble was their purpose like the whole point of their trip was to go to roskobel um but certainly we have at least three separate portions of this land um you know the anduin veil right where the great river is running between merckwood and the misty mountains gets at least three different sets of scouts right as we'll see we've already seen two of them the one that goes straight into murkwood and the other that go down here so clearly one of the goals would seem to be to kind of cover this land in particular this land along the river right okay so they're headed down here to ross gobel which exactly as several of you are pointing out is not far from dull gould or um okay now what else are we at um had come down into wilderland over the gladden fields right exactly ross gobel radagast was not there and they had returned over the high pass that was called the red horn gate so they had come south after crossing over so instead of retracing their steps and crossing that path because apparently there is one up by the source of the gladin river they had come back down by holland down here right by uh dim real dale um and the red horn pass which is down here by moria right um so that would track right if they came down crossed over here came down south to ross goble so they're now much further south instead of heading back north they went straight back west across the anduin valley thereby by the way going across another slice another big slice of um of the anduin river valley right and then crossing the mountains again there okay um the sons of elrond eledon and elro here were the last to return they had made a great journey passing down the silver load into a strange country but of their errand they would not speak to any save elrond so they had passed down the silver load which is the kelibrant here so they i have to assume actually went down all the way through oregon and presumably went over the red horn gate i don't think they went through moria itself um so it um they must have gone over the red horden gate which was just alluded to right in the sentence before um when they went down and they went down the silver load into some strange country roundabouts um you almost have to conclude that that's lorian right i mean like what stranger um what stranger company would we get right uh than uh than than that i mean i i i assume that they've gone down there right to lorien um and it's interesting that that's called a great journey on the one hand it is i mean it's further south than any of the other scouts go um but i don't know like you know in miles on foot did the previous dudes who went down crossed over the mountains went down the gladden river over to ross gobel and then back up over the redhorn gate and back up to rivendell actually go less far then then maybe a little bit but i'm not really sure um uh yeah i i i agree jordan it might be a great journey qualitatively qualitatively rather than quantitatively perhaps um but um uh but yeah in any case it was um it was a strange place now tessa i agree it doesn't say that they went to warren it just said that they went to a strange land so what are our options here they went to a strange land um they could have gone to fangorn vanguard is pretty strange so that would qualify and they would have to go i guess down the silver load to get there um but um uh yes and that's a greater journey in the sense of being longer for sure um so that's possible they could have gone and continued down uh to the brown lands for reasons best known to themselves um that would be a greater journey also and has the advantage of first having to go down the silver load to get there but it's the reference to the silver load in particular it seems to me almost inescapable that that's um lorien that they got to um but um yeah yeah um it seems to me to mostly fit um yeah i agree the r the occam's razor answer is is lorian uh for sure um but um but let's um let's go back and answer the try to answer the other questions here all right um this is a lot right i mean these are really long journeys um i mean like look uh down here i zoomed in a little bit so i don't have the whole map on my slide here but um we've got uh the rauros weighed down here in the right-hand corner right um and the dead marshes over here mordor is just off the corner of my slide here right so they've gone more than halfway on the entire journey that the company is going to go on but more importantly of course as we know remembering ahead it's elladonna no rohir's trip which would seem to be almost exactly as somebody was saying a dry run right of the company's trip um down through iregan over the redhorn gate that's plan a anyway down the silver load and into the strange country which it seems was always their purpose always their plan um to go to go down there um but um yeah exactly drow snake that's exactly it um of course they didn't anticipate they just they didn't uh anticipate moria um so so yeah i i one of th there are a couple reasons they are the ones whose secrecy is singled out right um that they went on a great journey and so i kind of like the idea of it's being great not merely quantitatively but not really quantitatively but qualitatively as well right um it is a great journey it is the most important of all of the scouting trips because i think this is the plan right i think this is that they're scouting plan a basically um eledon and elro here say all right the goal is to go from here to lothlorien right and then continue from there down the anduin um so uh so let's see let's see what the route between here and lothlorien is like how manageable that is but they're not going to talk about it much because this is this is the secret right um the last thing they want is for anybody to suspect that that was actually the dry run right um but at the same time if they went to lothlorian it also explains the secrecy of their errand they would not speak to any save to elrond um because i'm betting you that they talked to grandma while they were there and that she had some message or other um we will we know that when we get to go andrea she has had news um she is expecting them um and i i think it's pretty clearly from illidan and elro here that she received news of them so she's been waiting for them ever since eledon and elro here left um and i don't doubt that she has had some um um has some messages that she's sending back home to elrond with ella donahoe wrote here which are for his ears only um they wouldn't speak to any one of their errand and the errand is a really interesting word there right not of their mission not of their the results of their scouting they had an errand um they are the only ones who seem to have an errand that is like a destination a job to do a task to perform and not merely um you know land to look at right land to to to to look over um exactly bart going to grandma's house is more of an errand than a mission yeah exactly exactly um so um uh yeah ray exactly it is a communication between two of the three you know the holders of the three elven rings um absolutely um uh yes yes um yeah the messengers of elrond passed by lorian on their way home up way home up the dimeral stair yes and that is could be also the other ones uh that is the ones who went to ross goble uh as well um but um yeah yeah um so yes okay what is the message what does gladreal have to contribute to this discussion i don't know um but it really does seem to me most likely that it really does seem to be most likely that they that this was plan a they were scouting this and they were talking to galadriel to plan this uh as they were preparing to head south um i think it's pretty clear that gandalf and aragorn are aiming for the red horn gate um and thereafter the silver load and lorien they know which pass they're heading for like that is a decision that is clearly made before they leave rivendell um and whatever it was that eledon and elro here found on their journey and heard from galadriel when they got to the end of it or to the middle point of it i guess um apparently confirmed the plans uh for them to head down in that direction um yeah i have to imagine yeah there's a pretty big old briefing uh uh bjorning in exile that they had to do right about the council and what happened there big news lots of big news at the count from the council right um yeah yeah um yes cook of wooten miner i don't i think that there is good evidence to believe that the telepathic communication of which galadriel and elrond and gandalf are manifestly capable um does not happen over those kinds of distances i do not think um that galadriel and elrond can just get on the horn and talk to each other telepathically between rivendell and and um and la florian i think there are several pieces of evidence uh that um that had to uh that that that does not happen um so yeah i think that they definitely had to do the uh briefing um okay you're right ray of course it was called it was caliborne that they were briefing uh i i forgot of course yeah it was caliburn obviously he's the lord uh of the golothan and so he's the he needs to know these things absolutely um uh uh so yes mouse it does seem in mouse by the way congratulations on catching up uh to live in the class it's very exciting i saw your note about that um it it does seem that the scouts checked out the mountain passes all the mountain passes before they decided to go i mean again we've got evidence that they checked out three of the three separate ones right at least three um the high pass that leads to the carrick and the old ford um this other pass that we don't know anything about but which apparently exists that leads to the sources of the gladden river and then of course uh the red horn gate or the dimeral stair which leads over down by moria those seem to be the three primary ones that they were that they were looking at um and they seem to have scouted not only the three of them but also as i said most very thoroughly this area basically between the old forest road and lorien um you know this whole all of the anduin river valley uh between those two points they've uh uh traversed pretty um pretty thoroughly pretty pretty carefully there um so el donna now el row here aside who seem to have had a special errand um which again i i have to believe is briefing galadriel um and getting her advice as well as checking out the prospective plan a route of of the company when it heads south what's the point right what's the point of this whole scouting expedition this is a massive quantity of country for them to travel uh for scouting purposes what exactly are they looking for now gandalf had mentioned um gandalf had mentioned that they were looking for evidence of the non-school right exactly fourth thoughtless um they have to ensure the nine aren't lurking around that's exactly what he said right that's a pretty thorough search right they are checking over a wide radius and a thorn i also think we can see a lot of evidence that they're looking for other movements of the enemy right um as several of you were pointing out the ross goblet trip doubtless is also um scoping out what's going on in the greater del gulder region right is there evidence of or because remember what they learned at the what they learned at the uh the council right about orc activity in mercury from dole guldor um remember the orcs who rescued gollum were heading down to del guldor and we do not go that way says legolas um so um they sent some folks who go that way they sent folks down in that down that way right they didn't go to delgar as nobody goes to dalgool you don't just walk into dull golder well gandalf does but um not often it was a big deal when gandolf did um so um okay so yeah so they're checking to see are we amassing armies right is is he planning an invasion is is what's happening down there um are they going to be walking into a track because i mean look how close to guldur they're going to be head if plan a is down the kelbourn through i mean in delorean is good and all but you got to come out the other side of lorien right and then look where you are if uh you know this whole area is like an encampment of um of the enemy then yeah you don't want that now um uh tessa i would say i know you were a little skeptical that they only went to lothlorien if i that they went there down the silver load i think is manif the strange land down the silver load is i that's la florian ten times out of ten i i don't think there's any uh really likely other possible interpretations or at least probable interpretations uh of that sentence but that doesn't mean that they did nothing else it's conceivable that they went past lorien over towards doguldor they might have done some of the closer scouting towards dog goulder it's right across the river and down the way right um but um anyway so they quite likely um uh they quite likely did i who knows but in any case the ross goebbel people at the very least they have they're checking on the movements of the enemy around dole guldor um what are they checking on down here in the thar bad direction well remember when gandalf went south he was passing whole bunches of people heading north right now um butterbur suspects that s although some of the refugees who are heading north are just poor bodies um some of them mean no good um and i think that the whys of rivendell are wise enough to think to wonder after hearing gandalf's story um how many of those folks coming north of the greenway from the greater eisenguard area are actually refugees how many of them are spies of sauron is sarman in fact even going to move armies to the north because they know that he knows that gandalf knows where the ring is and that if gandalf didn't have it on him it's going to be up in the north right uh in the greater shia region and so any military action from um isengard which is very possible because of course he saw all the all the orcs and wargs and stuff there in eisenguard um it's um uh it's that's just how they would go right up the greenway um and tharbod is where they would cross the river uh presumably um yeah yeah um good mad violinist is uh kind of working this out um yeah exactly cook was saying thor about is a militarily strategic location yes they would be able to tell at tharbod whether or not any significant movement of troops had come through that way because it's the only way that troops could come into the north from the ended wife down in the south um so yeah yeah they're one of the things that they are presumably checking to hey uh is sarman invading because remember these are largely empty lands right i mean an invading army could go quite a ways without anybody knowing that it was there right i mean like i i mean how many days south of bree would uh an invading army get to before it was spotted right before it was known um so um anyway yeah yeah um yeah uh bjorning i suspect you're right there tolkien veteran of world war one when troop movements were constrained to roads and railroads would appreciate tharbod's importance intimately uh sure sure um okay so we have we're checking on the movements of sarman right spies and or armies that he is sending into the north we're checking on dol guldur clearly and up towards the edinmorse why do we go to the etimores well that's cold that's troll country aragorn says that is to say clearly there are still evil creatures lingering in the north now of course i know that lotro players will be like oh yeah man angmar is a really dangerous place now much has been invented for the storylines of lotro which is not explicitly supported in the text though little of it explicitly contradicted either um the realm of angmar you know kind of mostly reborn that we see in the lotro plotline there's no direct evidence for that exactly up there but again we know um that um uh there's there are evil creatures up there in the north remember even in the shire there were those stories remember the stories that frodo used to go around listening to a lot at the very beginning of chapter 2 in those days in those 17 years after bilbo left and before gandalf returned when he would always talk to any wanderers who came into the you know who came through the shire dwarves and such to get tidings from the outside world and one of the things that they heard was that um like trolls had been seen in greater and greater number um and no longer you know dull and stupid but now you know but uh fierce and armed with terrible weapons right remember that um so the troll shaws where we encountered um you know william and uh you know burt and tom uh in the hobbit um is right here that's our little forest uh on the map there on the other side of the last bridge um so the trolls were even in hobbit time um wandering down this far is there going to be um uh and yes brick tails in the long winter um uh armies came from the north to the shire yes it is also possible um exactly who is um yeah the orc army that attacked dale and erebor nancy if you mean the one in the hobbit that came from up in the northern misty mountains up here to mount gundabat right um so this northern stretch was where the goblins were living and they came across and attacked arabour which is right off the map you know right off my slide uh over there to the right and we we're we're told that the goblins you know the the goblins and the misty mountains have been greatly replenished since the time of the battle of five armies um so yeah there's definitely uh plenty of folks and agreed tomas was just gonna say that um we know that there are creatures that would freeze butterbur's blood um you know within a day's march of brie so up here and again this land which is full of labels of things in the south right the place in the map where says brandywine bridge chatwood and midgewater is otherwise blank right these are the north downs um and fornost is this is uh uh this is dead man's dyke up here right um up in the forehead and even dim area where um uh which has a very scary reputation in the breland right so it's clear there are still bad guys up here the trolls over here whatever it is that would freeze um uh that would that would freeze butterburst blood that lives up here by uh up up away by dead men's dike that's haunted land uh as butterbur says and which sometimes apparently come down into the north downs uh close enough to uh freeze his blood if he knew it and if the uh uh if the the rangers weren't watching him continually um so there's plenty of threat up there to the north despite the fact that karndoom is itself as a political entity um no more is is is no more but anyway yeah so there's all kinds of stuff up here they seem to be concerned having gone north along um the mountains specifically to the etimores we're told i think they're spying on the trolls and probably the goblins as well um so all so that's one thing that all of these directions all seem to have in common is that all of them seem to be at least potentially connected to the move the larger movement of um of of the enemy right um uh yeah so now uh bjorning in exile i agree um that um i agree that the ring of course does have to go south um and it needs it does need to be screened from the enemy so one of the questions they have when they're headed up north you know up to the ettenmores they're clearly not scouting a potential route for the company to go right now that's um nor are the dudes who are going all the way down to tharbod presumably right um so all of those that can't have anything to do with the actual path that the company is going to take so in that sense they're not they're not scouting in the sense of scouting out the potential route right i think that they are um they're they're doing they're clearly they're doing something else right the ones who are scouting the potential roots are not only eledon and elro here who do seem to be scouting plan a um but plan b and c are also clearly in play right um what if we just go straight across the high pass come out by the carrick and go down the and went all the way right from you know the old ford south of the carrick all the way down you know to rauros right or at least disarm to sardin gibber one could easily one could easily do that um that could be one plan or the gladden right let's go out down to the glad and then um then follow the anduin down from there so this makes sense not only of them scouting those passes but of them trying to figure out how dangerous has that land become that is the ando and river valley how dangerous has that valley become um are the um you know are there are scouts from dolgooldo are really active are there armies moving on the planes out there um uh yeah yeah um heir of numenor asks why did no one have trouble with karothros this time around well that's an interesting question and we will um uh we'll we'll talk about that when we get there um but um anyway okay so it seems to be on the table anyway for them to travel down the anduin river valley um either from that northerly pass or from the middle pass um i don't know which one's plan b and which one's plan c but um uh in whatever order you know those are um um those are clearly plans b and c i think um but anyway the dudes up to the north and the dudes going west aragorn being one of the dudes apparently going west they're trying to figure out the circumstances right are they likely to be pursued this also by the way would tell them something about what the enemy was waiting to do or suspecting remember that they said in the council that they believed that they believed that that sauron believes that they're going to take it to the sea right their money is that sauron as soon as he learns that the ring is at rivendell is going to be like oh man the elves have it they're going to totally send it to valinar right he assumes that that's going to be the council's plan a um that they're going to bring it right to him is not going to be his suspicion you know what he expects to happen um and that they're going to try to destroy it gandalf is going to tell us later is not going to enter into his darkest dreams um by scouting what are the enemies in the north country doing and what are any spies and enemies in the west country doing that is going to help them to understand what the enemy is preparing for elrond said that he thought that the path to the sea was fraught with greatest peril he expects all of the spies that the enemy has to be like in a net right to the west of them to at least detect if not detain them and recapture the ring when they head west with it so to some extent exactly and thorn they're trying to figure out what the enemy might or might not know is one of the things that i think they probably could conclude by seeing what the enemy and his servants are doing um you know if uh if the greenway you know down there up in the south downs right um up by andreth south of brie if there's a whole bunch of enemies there you know if the if the company is going to head south in the way down straight towards a reggae and along the the the you know between the brewing inn and the mountains this is of course the path we know they're going to go and if this is plan a all along that they're going to head down this way it doesn't much matter what happens south of brie right i mean the enemy is not going to like suddenly ambush them from way over there they can't even get there conveniently right without having to come all the way down through that like it's it's um i mean the the rivers make this journey complicated uh for the enemy especially in in significant numbers so again i don't think that they're scouting north or they're scouting west doesn't seem to me to have very much to do with the party's journey the planning of the of the fellowship's journey i think it has more um i think it has more to do with um them seeing what the enemy is up to and by observing their movements guessing how much they know and what actions they are attempting to take as a consequence of what their what they're guessing um it is possible that they've sent out some some doubles they're engaging in some misdirection i think that that's possible [Music] at the very least it does make the fellowship kind of blend in doesn't it i mean there's been a whole bunch of small parties of folks heading out from rivendell going every which direction right uh crossing the lands hither and yan apart from the fact that they have hobbits with them and therefore might be a rather suspect scouting party if anybody got close enough to detect that fact um uh the fellowship could easily look like just another scouting party right um yeah yeah um that's true bart i suppose it's theoretically possible that they could have uh they could have sent out fake hobbits uh with the other parties so that they get used to parties of elves from rivendell in the company of uh of of hobbits inflatable hobbits yeah i doubt it i doubt it um uh they could yeah they could they could bring in um uh yep bolsters exactly as you were suggesting yeah yeah um uh they just all ride with a bolster uh and a and a and a little rug uh in front of them it's um there it is um and odo uh chris exactly exactly um so uh but i doubt it i doubt it um i doubt it um i bet you though that they did send gore findle west because i still gotta think that if i'm sauron and i'm thinking they're going to send the ring overseas my first my first dread has to be um glorfindle on his wicked fast horse just heading straight west like a shot what are they gonna do who's gonna stand up to him the ring rates couldn't stand up to him um you know not unless maybe all nine of them are together and uh you know that ship has sailed so to speak um so um so yeah i don't see them stopping gorfindle um if he just heads straight out um but um yeah yeah um we don't know where gorfindle went um but i wouldn't be surprised if he did go west wouldn't they want to claim it yeah yeah um from sauron's perspective he would assume that they would want to claim it but what would the new ringlord do where would the new ringlord go um i'd have to head south eventually but it's not clear to me exactly um exactly what happens um and nancy i agree if the ring goes west sauron wins um unless they can send it into the west and like owlet can unmake it would be i think sauron's only fear there basically um emily that's exactly the kind of thinking that we learn later that sauron is likely to have that if you declared yourself the new ringlord you'd need to go and put down all of your rivals um uh so maybe you uh you march on kieran first and then take all of his ships and sail down south right and uh uh attack uh because it's uh that that would obviously be the better way to get to mordor right if you have the ships of current in the ship right um you know having put him down kieran i mean as a potential rival um you um you go take all of his ships and then you sail around the south and you come and land land with a huge intimidating army uh you know down somewhere in umbar or something and give sauron some pretty scary flashbacks right um uh yeah yeah um so that would be that would be a method um for even for a new ringlord to act um but now i agree if you're worried about your rivals you go south to lorien but maybe not right away um maybe you consolidate your power a bit first before you take on galadriel i'm just saying i think that galadriel is the penultimate step of conquest you know what i mean um i'd uh exactly not the first boss you want to take on um yeah or of course and keller born absolutely right um yeah yeah no sauron is the final boss galadriel would be the penultimate boss and but then you you would want to you'd want to beef up both your armies and your um your own personal consolidation of power first um i would think um and yes ray burns that's a really interesting point by taking out cured and you might gain the new ring lord another elven ring sure absolutely yeah um why not why not um uh so yeah and you could you could decide chris i think like especially if you're coming around by sea you could just leave sauron high and dry like who's he gonna you know who's he gonna scare from eisenguard if you're not cry if you're trying to cross the gap of rohan well okay right or even go down south through gondor then you've gotta cope uh with saruman but if you were a ringlord and particularly cunning you could again if you sailed around to the south you could leave both sauron and galadriel high and dry right um uh and don't sleep on denithor agreed belongs bond right yeah you'll want to come in to gondor right consolidate your power base there and then from there attack mordor perhaps um uh but um anyway yeah so now there's lots of um there's lots of there's lots of possib there's lots of potential there for westward movement even by a new ringlord right whether it be gandalf or whether it be elrond like let's just say it's elrond for argument's sake right um uh yeah yeah um yeah anyway okay so i think this helps me to make more sense of the purpose of the scouts they're not just checking the land for spies though presumably they're doing that they're not just looking for evidence of the ring wraiths still hanging out though we know they're doing that as well they're interested in assessing the current state of the larger geopolitical situation right is sauron advancing from del guldor what's he doing with the misty mountain orcs is he sending them down should we expect rivendell to be invaded from the north soon right is that what's going to be happening here if so perhaps that should time when we get the ring the heck out of dodge right um uh is saruman invading ariador from the south he might he could do that that's one of his options right um is that what he's gonna do of course now we know that's not actually what he's doing but it's a potential option for him right um and um yeah and so and and again then with uh del guldor as well so once they know all those things then they'll be prepared not only to make an educated decision about what route they should send the ring by and notice the one that they take the one that threads the needle right the one that goes right down the middle that avoids ariador they're not going to go down boromirs they're not going to retrace boromir steps right head down through like cardone of old right hit the greenway and head south down the greenway that would be one potential route right they're definitely not doing that the whole let's go right let's bring the ring right past eisenguard the kibosh on that without doing too much scouting i suspect um but still they decide not to go in that direction um they're going sad they they decide not to cross the river and go down they're they're minimizing in fact the time that they spend in the anduin river valley whatever they found there was not conducive to the ring going so they're not going to go over they're not going to go over the other way they're going to head straight south in between um exactly threading the needle between dull guldor and eisenguard staying as far as they can from both of those things if we see eisengarde and doguldor there they are indeed going to head right down the middle trying to avoid both to the greatest extent that they can um yeah yeah um yeah um and you're right hrothgar um when sauron attacked a region he came up that way um up through the ended wife and such so yes it is not a new route um at all um good so um for thoughtless i do think i think that the ones who went north are looking at angmar and gundabad they only went as far as the etienne moors um but i think that they my sense is that's the whole reason to go that way is like if if they're mobilizing gundabad and angmar um they'll probably be able to see it from the attenmores which are clearly they're called moors uh not mountains but um it's clearly high land right so from there they should be able to get some glimpse of like are things mobilizing on this side of the mountains um how much do they have to worry about from the goblins up there um so i think that that's um i think that they are kind of covering uh the north up there um yeah okay cool i think that mostly does it rat i guess where's radagast why isn't radagast home bart is very worried about radagast tessa yeah he's never mentioned again either it does say the old home of radagast he doesn't live there anymore the fact that they go out of their way to say ratagast was not there suggests that there is at least the possibility that he might have been there right um when last we saw radagast we might as well go back to the map he was south of brie right um remember gandalf looped down i don't know if he went all the way to sarnfort he did go to sarnford didn't he so when gandalf left frodo he went down to um and crossed over at sarn ford and then went back up the greenway right um so he met radagast somewhere around in through here right um yeah nahar that's what i'm wondering if it's his old home in the sense of being his previous home or in the sense of being his long-term home right like you know ah that's the old home of radagast right he's been there forever so long it is possible um that uh it is possible that he it that that's what it means right that it is his home home from of old right um but um but anyway so he ratagast was last seen turning and herring off down the greenway south right and gandalf says hey uh tell the birds and beasts who are your friends right where does radagast end up um well we know that he ends up in touch with the eagles right um uh he he's an yeah i mean yeah who knows exactly where he's going to talk to his burden beast friends um but um he uh he was originally going to report to sauron but i don't know that he was like actually heading back to isengard originally before gandalf said hey uh um go send your bird friends and find out um i think that he must have been headed to the misty mountains and so one could wonder why he was headed didn't he head south didn't he turn around and hit maybe he turned around and headed to the north darn it i gotta go back to the text then because gandalf is actually coming up from the south trying to figure out did we get a reference to jj or somebody else with the electronic text somebody look up that paragraph and paste it in for for me can you into the comments um okay i myself shall turn back at once okay great matt but but where earlier on like in the in the um in the encounter um okay right in his tail correct great uh brick tails is reminding us that in his story in the council gandalf calls him ratagasta brown who at one time dwelt at ross gobel near the borders of markwood that would suggest that old uh home of radagast does mean former home that like he used to live in ross gobel before the neighborhood you know went downhill basically with the rise of dog gouldur again and like things of darkness spreading through merckwood um you know he's like property values went down so badly uh down in southern merkwood um that he just he just had to to up stakes and leave right um that does suggest that um okay it says he would have ridden straight off as if the nine were after him okay but more i want to i want the beginning the beginning of their conversation i turned east and north right so i turned east and north and journey along the greenway so he's gandalf is heading north towards brie along the greenway not far from brie i came upon a traveler sitting on a bank beside the road okay he's sitting on a bank beside the road so we don't see him coming right okay um nor do we know the direction that he's hairing off in that he goes to write off really fast but we don't know whether it's north or south interesting flamifer says gandalf says i could not follow him then and there to eisengard presumably so yes i agree that does suggest that he headed south um yeah yeah okay does that mean that radagast was headed to eisenguard possibly does that mean that he got to isengard i don't think so he definitely at least makes a stop on the way to isengard um because he finds gwy here and sends gwai here and guy here lives up here about a carrick right where is radicast going i mean look doubtless he's got bird contacts down there right uh you know yeah i doubt he made it to eisenguard nor does sauron in his reference to radagast seem to expect him to return right his purpose with radagast was to send radagast out to deliver that message to gandalf um yeah i gotta think he's headed back to mark wood too but i gotta think he's headed the wrong direction now he was never a traveler um because there is no good road i guess in theory from here depending on how far is because we don't know exactly how far south he is right um gandalf crosses at sarnfort and heads north up the greenway towards bri when he meets so they somewhere like around androth somewhere in here in this pass through the south downs is where gandalf and radagast meet he it seems to me much faster for him to head north head straight out straight out the dwarf road past rivendell over the high pass and straight into merkwood just like those other scouts went that seems to me the fastest way to get back to merkwood if that's where he's going but maybe not maybe if you're sufficiently far south you head down the greenway to tharbad cross at tharbad and then head up the glanduin and cross over the dim real stair there and head off i mean that would be i guess even a straighter way to get to the greater ross gobel area the ways of wizards are mysterious and we don't know what he did but i've got to think keep in mind the gap of time as well gandalf after he separates from radagast gandalf heads north to brie writes his undelivered letter then goes south all the way on foot as far as i can tell to isengard right down here in the gap of rohan is imprisoned for a month right some time right um and then that's when gwy here gets there what time said somebody remind me appendix b when is gandalf imprisoned when does gandalf arrive i know it's mid-year's day when they meet when do when does he arrive in in isengard gandalf when does gandalf arrive how much time passes there okay it's july 10th okay july 10th um so it's um we've got at least what six to eight weeks between gandalf and radagast's meeting and yes a couple months a couple months right two months he's imprisoned there so what was the calendar date mid-year's day beginning of july right um okay so it's like two and a half months basically we're looking at um um yeah you're right flammable he does have a horse he's not on foot okay all right so right right between the end of june and beginning of july exactly so we've got call it two and a half months between when gandalf and radagast meet and when guay here shows up so he's got lots of time to travel i've got to think that um and they're collecting news first so radagast eventually meets up with the eagles when he meets up with the eagles he asks the eagles very nicely if they would scout around right and they see many things in rohan and uh and other places right um uh merkwood right all over the place okay um so and yes heir of numenor i agree um gandalf seems to assume that radagast is not returning to isengard because he tells him to send news to gandalf and saruman at isengard right so if you know radagast is just gonna be head you know getting there two days before him there would be no point in doing that so yeah okay so even if we assume let's assume it takes a full let's take let's assume that it takes a full um uh two weeks for the eagles to scout around get back to radagast and then um kind of for gwy here to kind of pool the information that the eagles have gathered and set off flying down to isengard to tell gandalf and and sarman right okay so that's i i it's hard for me to think that the eagles would take more than two weeks because they can fly that's relatively fast so um but let's give him two weeks right give him two weeks for that that means he's still got two months to find gwy here radogast does from where he departs from gandalf um and we don't know what other business he's got going on remember you know uh sarman sent him on this errand right on this journey that he hadn't been planning on taking ratagast hadn't been planning on taking he had presumably some other irons in the fire at the time right so he's going to go and uh figure out uh he may have other things that he's attending to as well how long does it take to find the eagles how long does it take to get to where they are are they up there at the high pass or are they is he somewhere does he know i mean i don't know where gwy here lives maybe gwy here doesn't live with the other eagles up there maybe guy here lives somewhere else and bradagast knows where that is right no idea no idea um so um yeah yeah um okay all right but that makes sense it does give him ratagast plenty of time even if he's going south crossing by tharbot and then heading over to the misty mountains from there and he might have reasons for that there might be the presumably lots of burdens birds and beasts known to ratagast in this area now um fun little transitional observation um you guys many of you who play the lord of the rings online will remember that fairly early on in game play you meet radagast they place radagast temporarily out in the lone lands right out here in the lone lands um uh you know some seeing to some issues that are developing over here that strikes me actually as perfectly plausible actually um again especially if he does end up kind of looping around in this direction heading back towards um and we don't know for all we know he just doesn't want to cope through brie maybe he's going to go back south around the south downs and then cut across kardalan um and head up in this direction um so it is very possible that he uh um could go through this area and that he would have other business of his own to attend to on the way what could be likelier than that right um so anyway um that's um uh yeah yeah um now where is he heading now i i have no idea cook if he would actually want to go that way i was just saying that actually i think it's um the route that they the apparent route that they give to radagast in uh in the word of the rings online strikes me as plausible plausible all right okay um with that it's like now i didn't expect our radagast deliberations to take quite this long um but it would make a little bit of sense of him not being at ross goble especially if he doesn't even live there anymore um uh but uh if he's got other stuff to do and anyway he's off um by that time he's already talked to the eagles what's he still up to now um still talking to the eagles who knows what radagast is up to um but um anyway okay i agree i'm a thorn ratagas does get short shrift i don't mind also taking a little time uh for ratagast here um but um anyway okay thank you everybody for joining us for our uh text and map discussion here today um we will be back next week uh when we uh learn more about the reports that the scouts bring from their various um uh from their various uh the their various directions um so i will see you guys next week and it is field trip time the evening good evening valerie how are you i like all the conversations about fake hobbits or sitting there like do they get like bootleg russian hobbits they're just right yeah well no i mean there are only there are only four bootleg russian i guess some of the extras from the party at the beginning could be around maybe maybe okay uh there's some uh some low-level people here i cannot guarantee your safety yes uh definitely definitely not guaranteed no we never did find a milestone did we no we didn't know no i think we found a stable master yeah so we're just going to stablemaster it up again towards the greater um the greater you know what is it gonda bad that's where we're headed the greater goon to bad area right oh man sorry i'm just like marveling at uh looking at lotro the water screen and being able to read the text without squinting because i'm wearing my glasses yeah yeah yeah i get that all right yeah i uh jordan i did think about using the in-game map uh for the text discussion i decided to go with the um uh the book map i should probably mount a horse shouldn't i uh with a book map because um i i just yeah i just i wanted to stick a little closer to tolkien's map because of course there are a bunch of things on the loturo map that are part of the uh you know the subcreation that the lotro folks have been doing um uh you know and all the things that they've added to the story and i didn't want to confuse anything with those so that's why i um that's why i didn't but i was tempted because i can zoom in more and kind of rove around a little bit better on the in-game map but um yeah okay let's see we are going to elder slades elder slade first yeah yep and then drink well i believe it's that little one we find oh that's right because we did find a new stable master right in the middle of a suggestive ruin as i recall yes well i do like me and map i like maps as much as uh frodo and built but i like to have maps they're why i like maps so much yeah maybe well i remember the first map i had prominently displayed was a map of middle earth from the war in middle earth computer game okay immediately had no luck in playing whatsoever but it came with a really cool map right right drangle is where we're headed not to zoo drumdon which is where we were last time oh was it oh okay well maybe it's the next goal is is this time that's the new one that we found at the very end okay cool okay i love it when you have to go down this excruciatingly windy path boy when i was taking um slow goats in moria i like could not even look at the screen like i actually had to like turn away or shut my screen off um i got so motion sick watching those slow goats go around those securities paths yeah yep yep okay all right well i think i agree that we are up close and personal with what looks like what this looks like the diamonds from the spires so let's let's go around and sneak a peek at going to bed again yeah yeah look at that the stripes are even the same we can even show okay so from here we can identify three i think three three different classes of gundam bad spires we've got the big fat tall spire in the middle right well not in the middle but left of middle yeah and then you've got the skinnier spires both of these are lined with the with those diamonds all the way up and down right both of them have um the vertical the dark vertical stripes behind the diamonds the differences are the proportions like notice how much bumpier the little one on the right is the smaller one on the right i should say that is the diamonds look like they're almost the same size as the bigger one but they cover a bigger percentage of the of the area right on the side yes um and those seem to be the same as the spires that we see down on the you know on the mezzanine level down in front here and then you've got um gun to bad spire mark iii which are the no diamond except i guess i have one diamond in the base of the spider chrysler building looking one and another one up at the top it looks like yes there are diamonds up at the top and there are diamonds down at the bottom but the the spires themselves are not studded with diamonds i wonder though here's here's what i'm wondering um are those in progress look at the bottom ones that have scaffolds around them right i wonder if they've just been installing new diamonds on the sides of these and the top ones are going to get them but they haven't worked up there yet oh yeah you got it diamonds every couple millennia well yeah yeah you got to redo it i mean anyway like this place was in the hand of you know the orcs and the anger in and so you know who knows what they did with the diamonds now i say diamonds of course i mean the diamond shapes not like actual gems somebody liked that shape okay so the first thing i want to do is i want to get up here and i want to take a closer look at the diamonds because this is clearly what we're seeing this is definitely one of those spires we can see the same vertical lines it's really interesting in that it's so much we can see that there's much more texture than from the distance it looks like right we get that like interwoven effect even on the you know the the sort of uh turquoise blue dark turquoise inside of the diamonds there right um yeah and you're definitely work yeah yeah and then we got also that kind of uh that same kind of uh notice there's almost that like three-dimensional like weaving sense that it gives right even though it is clearly only a two-dimensional like it's just a facade but yet it gives the impression of depth right to the the blue in the middle of those diamonds and in the stripes yeah it it has uh that the gradients give it that but it is also very it is three-dimensional it does stick out of it yeah it it works with it right yeah yeah it does it yeah right it's it's like the the pointy bits are concave is what you or khan objects convex yeah this was what i meant to say yes a very shallow triangular right it said they're pyramidal in fact the diamonds the individual diamonds or pyramidal yes yes um bone in the middle is the white one what if that was something more valuable that got nicked oh like in the very center in the very center yeah looks just like plain stone but that would be a weird place to just have plain stone even if it is it does yeah you're right maybe maybe it did get stolen and yes um emily as you were pointing out we can see on the inside of the tower they're definitely not windows they're merely external decorations so they're just like very large doodads yeah well spotted put on the outside yeah yeah oh there's a door here yeah jj is wondering if the thing in the middle uh shows how they were affixed right so so what jd do you think that's a rivet in the middle or something like that now here's my other question right here's my other question what was i standing on was this a statue oh yeah this is the top part of the statue that fell over you pointed out the feet last week where are the feet oh yeah there's the feet yeah right ozymandias yeah exactly okay so we've got um the dwarf ozymandias where'd he go there he is the dwarf ozymandias there um and the rest of his statue look at this cruciform diamond here have we seen this cross before um it's a totally different color than the blues in the uh the blues in the in the spire over there is it i can't tell whether it's a decoration or if it's just like an interesting cross section it looks like it was part of the statue like it yeah it looks like it was like part of the haft or the head of the axe maybe that's very strange nothing else seems to be colored on here yes is this a nose this is not his nose is it that i was just sliding off of that's too big to be his nose his beard this is his breastplate back here so either it's his beard or he thought all right this is his bro right this is his like i'm standing on his sternum right now i think that actually no i think this is a separate rock here this guy yeah because isn't this his chest and the two arms yeah i think it's his beard then right so this would be the beard then sticking down right yeah okay where's saginaw second out says he found the face down there oh yeah there's his face okay hat or crown if he was wearing a crown definitely a crown must be during then so this would be durian makes sense anyway so and his he's cut off like right below the bottom lip like even his whole chain isn't there so that would seem if we then take that head and we we glue it up here no not up here up over there yeah oh the proportions still don't seem to work and the head doesn't seem to be in proportion with that torso hmm maybe there'll be an intact one somewhere we can compare it yeah maybe we can compare in which case i'm going to definitely be looking for this little cruciform square because that's really very interesting it does look like it's the top or the bottom of the the axe whether it's the half or the head right uh there's the door over here that we can open by the way is there really well hang on a second let me go up by uh um ozymandias durin's feet do we have to go all the way around this way around the left hand side here just checking flagstones don't see any rather plain stones i guess we can probably get around this way okay yeah here's the feet oh interesting we've got the interlocking rings the copper looking ones yeah that's gotta make you wonder the date of this statue doesn't it i mean it obviously looks old but if it was copper to be green unless they have some sort of technique we don't know about which you know i wouldn't put it fast right which is possible but the stonework here the pedestal of the statue looks very similar to the dwarf ruins we've been seeing all along the river the anduin i mean as we've been here yeah the rings and the not work here it could be a newer statue but newer win i mean gundam bad would have fallen some time ago and only been lately recovered from goblins right yeah and this is still where are we this is an inlet yes looks like okay we're over here despite where the green dot is we're up here so this is one of the we're near the source of the anduin is one of these things the sources of the anduin officially labeled as the source of the end of it i don't know although carbona who's the only place that's named yeah is that the name of the river is that just that but we can't go there right that's not i don't think it doesn't exist yet but it is suggestively named as if it shall be at some time but you know the really tantalizing thing about that is they'd have to go off the map wouldn't they yeah to do a region north of god yeah yeah way up on the withered table master map for the next expansion yeah way up onto the withered heath blasted teeth but i guess we have some room up here if they do so they got an aerial door map and a rovanian map i guess there would have to be a forward wave map wouldn't there i guess yeah um interesting okay but this is me getting distracted um back to the feet i don't see any of the coward stone anything like that cruciform square yeah so that's kind of weird it's a different maybe there's two different statues you did say the scale didn't add up maybe maybe it is two different statues that'd be a little odd but okay wow this is a great view of that angmarim encampment that we did not enter yeah with that greasy purple metal on it and yeah yeah beautiful spirit halloween mood lighting yep and the metal spiky bits the metal uh fish hooks that sugges i suggest the new engmarim but it's got the old anger room walls around the outside of it oh we we've seen them reinhabit old places quite a lot yeah yeah oh man so those are the dwarf ruins two of the dwarf ruins two of those dwarf towers yeah down there big shiny dwarf i'm looking at the tops of the spires because all of the ones all of the spires spire sea right the ones without the diamonds or only the top and bottom diamonds have those little nubby tops right yep um if there were only one or even maybe two of them i would think them perhaps unfinished again like we're still going to you know go up and rivet the the you know diamonds onto the sides of those um but the tops are identical everywhere it looks like they're finished and designed to be nubby like that yeah the fact that they're all consistent does imply that this is a design choice and not a not a working product exactly um which leads me to believe that those are finished in fact um because the ones with the um so again if if the big huge we call the big huge one spire design a right and we call the smaller one with the um the with the diamonds that stick out more on the side right the proportionally larger diamonds for well really proportionally smaller yeah um that's uh we call that spire design b the ones without the diamonds or with fewer diamonds or rc so all of the ones that are in renovation down at the bottom are all b's yes i can see that not c's at all and you can tell by the tops right you can tell by the the the the spire extensions on the top that those are b's not c's because they don't have the little nubby ones now jj points out that the diamonds at the top run a different tier from the bottom um yes whereas the others have diamonds on the same tier plus the base exactly right yeah no it's just quite different in fact so different that the ones at the top are not even diamonds those are triangles inverted triangles at the top of the spire on the uh the sea spires yeah that was the part that made me think chrysler building yeah the downward pointed triangle there yeah and those so it's got the more art deco dwarven feel to it and darn if those don't look like windows halfway down like little slit windows the two vertical slits that we can see on the i need some real windows with all the fake ones right okay this one over here on the side is a little closer could be could be windows oh yeah one fell over there yeah that one definitely looks like a ceasefire that fell down over there maybe maybe but that makes this one that we were just looking at down here by the river that makes this a b i'd say or is it an a might be an a because the diamonds don't extend beyond the yeah let's see where on the blue line to the a's comes up um it is hard to say because both of them come right to the edge of the blue yeah the outer edges of the blue yeah the i think the blue stripes are the same distance it's just the outside of the blue stripes that is different depending whether it's an a or b yes the distance from the edge of the blue to the edge of the spire is greater for the a's so the spire itself is wider yes yeah in which case i i think it looks more a-ish i really do yeah it might be a yeah unless there's a fourth kind of spire we get which is weird because there seems to be only the one a spire upstanding yeah i wonder where the other one would be i don't know we'll have to look for a base that could be that could fit that maybe maybe this is it's like a matreshka doll and the inside each of the spires is a little durian [Laughter] maybe maybe okay hang on let's um we should go before too long but uh you said there was a door it's down here down by the uh stable master right by the step yep right where i broke my ankle oh and someone is dead can someone help that because i i cannot help that oops yes we've had a casualty was this a jumping down off the quiz it's our level 30 friend but we can at least try to revive her oh yeah okay no they oh we'll be able to revive them here it's too high level uh yeah it's still courteous to send them on their way though that's true all right oh a stronghold okay all right hey is there a milestone in here constantly looking for a new milestone not finding whatever oh i mean we've gone two steps from the actual stable masters that's true i think we're kind of stuck with that but look at the look at the little columns they got diamonds on them there's a there's a marking over here almost like a snowflake the bottom here oh yeah we've seen that and the sort of august ruin looking spiral shapes next to it yeah yeah you've seen it where did you see it was that further up we saw it we saw it by one of the bridges i think i don't recall this i remember suns there was a sun motif but i don't think i've seen a snowflake mate we definitely saw it yeah we definitely saw it and it was relatively recently is possible it's one of the ones i missed yeah so we can see in the vaulting arches we can see the what is clearly identical um yes identical blue striping patterns right um just like on the spires yep we do see that diamond pattern within the larger base of these pillar of these you know plasters here we this looks like an aqueduct that's yeah the snow flake and the little swirly face thing um we've seen in other places you think the orange accents on spires outside were these snowflake motifs it's possible it's possible but we can see therefore some continuity between as you'd expect if gundabad was built by durin and the followers of doran that there would be some you know design features that would carry over from here to moria and then from moria to erebor and erid lewin though the longbeardian style so in the uh um you know in the post thorin period in erid lewin you know that's the newest species of long beard architecture yeah i don't know because we're so up north with the the snowflakes possibly possibly i mean you'd think it would be pretty cold up here um yeah that plaque jordan yeah that's exactly that's what i'm talking about the swirly face thing that's just what i mean and we have seen that before we've seen that on the base of bridges some of the bridges over the anduin in some of the bases there we've seen it i don't know if we'll see it in moriah that'd be a good question to find out yeah it will be interesting to we'll be traveling through maurya before too long with the curving lines it's definitely something where they took a soft metal and they're they're beating curvy lines into it rather than the other stuff that looks like carved stone yeah yeah probably copper okay so this is just a little carve out here there's nothing else oh it looks like a refuge i think yeah so what this was is hard to tell uh it could have been something right i'm just thinking of where yeah it does i'm just trying to think of what this like in gundam bad days like in the heyday of gundabad what this used to be maybe something like a uh servant's entrance it kind of like uh like stables could have been down here and yes stables would be likely this far from the main entrance or maybe some sort of uh right and while you like ride up to the main gate or walk out right now then the waterfall might have something to do with that as well true yeah jordan was saying a boathouse down by the river yeah yeah maybe so there's like a an underground route to get down to here and then come out so i'm trying to like imagine i'm going out the door kind of fresh water maintenance system here i am okay assuming that there's not ruins right here you come out right next to the river this would be a good source of fresh water yeah yeah true waterfall right there maybe this is where they had all their fish drying yeah now there's other sources of water because they've got other rivers flowing right through the city so they would need to bring water from all the way down here but fishing presumably i mean you've got that big huge waterfall and stuff so maybe from down here well we've got another waterfall just south of the gardens wouldn't exactly want to put boats in to head south from here into this lake it is deep water yeah deep fast water yeah it'd be a very short trip yeah what is that garbage refuse pile yeah well i know the orcs like to do that with their garbage huh okay all right well next time we will continue up towards going to bat itself um i plan to stay here until we head down into holland uh in the text which we we still should be several weeks away from so uh we'll see when of course we go down into hall and we'll head into a region we might even have to interrupt this area and come back to it when we're um because it won't take us nearly so long to explore a region as it will take us to get through the whole rest of the chapter but um okay anyway cool all right well i'm standing here on this trash heap i suppose i should let everybody go thanks everybody for joining us tonight uh fun field trip speculating about uh making these closer observations and uh discerning some of the patterns so we can explore further as we continue our our our views of i've gone of uh not condiment did i say gondaman before weird goon to bad is what i mean um anyway thanks for joining us and we will see you guys next week thanks everybody [Music] you

Channel: Signum University

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Length: 120min 29sec (7229 seconds)

Published: Tue Sep 14 2021