Exploring the Lord of the Rings, Session 194 A Middling-Long Rest

[Music] and good evening everybody welcome back to exploring the lord of the rings uh in real time here it's been three weeks since we uh last met i've been doing some summer traveling uh with my family and my son who's headed off to college soon so it's been a busy time and some busy times to come but i should be able to be here for the next three weeks with everybody so i'm delighted to be back with you guys been missing our discussions two quick announcements before i start today first is that i am delighted to say that our first two regional moots are officially scheduled and ready to go we should have registration up for those soon um those are new england moot which is going to be held in durham new hampshire this year out right near the university of new hampshire campus up by the seacoast really really fun spot so i hope that a new england regional folks will be able to come out there it's gonna be on saturday the 25th of september so saturday 25th of september durham new hampshire new england moot uh the theme is second breakfast uh so we'll see the call for paper should be out soon and as they say registration uh will be um uh will be open soon also open soon will be registration for middle moot which is back out in waterloo iowa again this year on october 9th the saturday october 9th so the 25th of september for new england moot and the 9th of october for middlemoot out in iowa um delighted uh to i just can't wait to start up the regional moots again uh so that's going to be really exciting we are going to have hybrid access to all of our regional moods this year so if you're not able to attend in person you will be able to participate uh virtually we will um uh i'll be you know so we'll have registration for uh uh for that as well so um all those things will be so more information on those things to come soon um uh as far as the registration and everything else i'll talk a little bit more about the uh the digital participation and stuff but um i just wanted to make sure that you knew the dates and the places um because uh it's gonna be it's gonna be a lot of fun um so captain mo working on europe i mean there of course it's mostly about the travel restrictions and stuff until we can make sure that we're able to travel honestly i'm not really even trying to plan any of them for the fall i'm kind of hoping that by 2022 you know by by next year so we're you know we're doing our annual cycle um you know pretty much following the academic year so i'm hoping that by next year maybe in the spring um we'll be able to get back to europe uh for other moots so we will um we will uh we will definitely see um so yeah uh uh so yeah cook of wooten miner we're working on a magnolia moot down in the south um not sure if we're gonna i don't think we'll be in georgia itself but uh we're looking at a couple different locations we were in charlotte north carolina before and we could do that again we're also thinking of perhaps charleston south carolina so uh we'll see we'll see where we end up this year um but um anyway um yeah so um regional uh the the the relaunching of regional moots uh is uh my uh one of my my big excitements uh for this year i'm so i am very much looking forward to that um oh freebird buckeye mood is totally happening um probably not for a while though it will probably won't be until the spring um we're looking buckeye moot probably um april ish early april maybe early march somewhere in there um is what we're looking at for um uh for for buckeye moot haven't uh nailed down the dates on that one yet but it's happening it is so happening uh definitely um so um anyway cool um the other quick announcement uh that i had you've heard me before talk about um our signum clubs program uh which is our uh extracurricular program uh in uh book our book clubs and uh creative writing clubs and language clubs for kids grades 3 through 12. we actually have an opening that i wanted to kind of ask people about if any of you either are teachers or know someone who is a teacher who teaches french we have an opening for a french teacher that i would really love to uh that i would really love to fill so i just wanted to kind of extend that opening anybody who knows somebody who teaches french who think would be you know think would be really good you know experience teaching high school kids especially um tell them to get in touch with us send us an email at info cignamu.org we'd love to hear from them and talk to them about that have an opportunity that just recently arose on that front so um anyway that's um that's that's that's that's the plans just wanted to just wanted to to mention that all right let me jump into the text here without further delay um because it's been so long so remember the hobbits were talking right that's as far as we got um we were talking last time about uh gandalf um and his you know saying that he was uh you know the only one who didn't have an eye opener we were discussing what it meant to have an eye opener uh at the council of elrond so tonight we're moving on uh with bilbo's rather dismissive uh transition well anyway said bilbo nothing was decided beyond choosing poor frodo and sam i was afraid all the time that it might come to that if i was let off but if you ask me elrond will send out a fair number when the reports come in have they started yet gandalf yes said the wizard some of the scouts have been sent out already more will go tomorrow elrond is sending elves and they will get in touch with the rangers and maybe with randul's folk in merkwood and aragorn has gone with elrond's sons we shall have to scour the lands all round for many long leagues before any move is made so cheer up frodo you will probably make quite a long stay here all right um so i love the transition the will anyway transition uh by bilbo um i don't think that he is well i think they're kind of two options here so you may remember when we were talking about what it meant to have an eye opener right um that it wasn't just about like receiving surprise information right it meant having your you know sort of world view rocked right in a sense um there were a lot of eye openers at um uh at the council and bilbo is well anyway here on the one hand he might be merely dismissing the apparent you know if we sort of take it on its simplest level you know he just said everybody had an eye opener and gandalf you know uh banters with him right claiming he was inattentive uh because he already knew about gollum's escape um and this could just be bilbo this is just sort of bilbo dismissing it right on one level but it also seems to be you know he's he's obviously transitioning right let's let's go away from talking about what happened at the council right and instead look forward and think about what's happening next um bilbo cuts short the review which was already fairly short right and this of course bilbo was the one who gave the super short synopsis of the council in the first place right uh summarizing the whole thing as merely talking um and um uh so it's it's bilbo does not really seem to want to linger on it um he is kind of downplaying it although he does mention everybody having an eye opener right so he kind of points out on the one hand yeah it was kind of a big deal right there were lots of sort of shocking revelations but um you know but let's not talk about that right let's uh um the only you know well anyway nothing was decided beyond choosing poor frodo and sam and here he's still contextualizing um the uh the the nothing is decided yet right and pippin's outrage you know nothing nothing decided you were shut up for hours right how could you not decide anything in all that time um bilbo does not seem to want to dwell on what happened in the council right and it's interesting to me it's interesting to me that bilbo and frodo don't show any um any impulse here now obviously there's much conversation that they may have already had and that they will probably go on to have with mary and pippin um kind of going over what happened and and stuff probably um but we don't see any evidence of either one of them frodo or or fredo or bilbo or sam of any of the three of them really wanting to kind of unpack it right wanting to go over and and ha and and kind of you know rehash and think through and process what happened uh in the council bilbo seems actively desirous to kind of move on right and my suspicion here is that um bilbo is um wanting to focus on frodo right think about frodo's response to mary and pippin right um you know his um his comments about you know being doomed to go on this hopeless quest a reward right um in other words i think that bilbo can see that frodo is still a little um frayed emotionally right um and uh bilbo wants to focus on what happens next for frodo right um nothing was decided beyond choosing poor frodo and sam even that statement of course is not exactly true it was first decided that the ring would be sent to the fire right but that's not what's important here right the main thing is that choosing poor frodo and sam now his word poor is interesting right he commiserates with them he seems to kind of go along at least to some extent with frodo's um sort of glum uh comeback right to mary and pippin um uh you know to mary specifically about being doomed uh to come on this hopeless uh hopeless quest um he commiserates with them they are poor frodo and sam uh uh to to bilbo here right but at the same time i don't think that he's merely entering and entering into the spirit that frodo was saying i think that he's going to be that he's working to hand to sort of head that off a little bit now kokovo and minor i agree with you um that um bilbo may also feel that he's responsible for this landing on frodo's shoulders and wants to try to participate in charting their course as a way of remaining uh part of what he started yes yeah and i think especially the first part of that cook i i think that um he does feel responsible that um as the next sentence i think demonstrates i was afraid all the time that it might come to that if i was let off and again even his characterizing it as being let off like some you know well some terrible duty right that uh he was willing to volunteer for and volunteered for seriously but was let off um having to do that so the poor frodo and sam the let off phrasing shows that he is um you know he's is expressing sympathy with frodo's feelings um but notice where he goes immediately after this but if you ask me elrond will send out a fair number when the reports come in have they started yet gandalf this seems to be the first gesture right i would say in that last in those last two sentences there are two separate gestures towards encouraging frodo right first he's not just gonna they're not just gonna send frodo and sam off by themselves right um that's the question right that's the question that they've been debating that mary and pippen are really invested in is you know uh who are their companions gonna be right pippin's like there's gotta be someone with intelligence in the party remember so um uh you know is he gonna have companions how many companions is he gonna have um how selective is that group gonna be you know um and uh here bilbo is opining that they're gonna send out a fair number right it's not just gonna be you know the two of them and aragorn or the two of them in gorfindle or something like that um it's going to be a fair number and curtsimus you're right nine versus nine is indeed a fair number um but um but i agree yeah but now forth thoughtless i think that that's a really good point um uh fort thomas says bilbo must seems to have a genuine insight into elron's thought process here no one else seems to know how large the party will be which is a little surprising yes yes and of course we remember that this at least in my reading was what sam was responding to right when sam jumped up and followed what it was that prompted sam to finally break his silence and say something at the end of the council of elrond um was the possibility right which seemed to be looming horribly in his mind at that point that frodo was going to be sent off alone that all of this talk about you know uh weakness and small hands and um not sending any strong people and everything was going to lead to him just like saying well we maximize our chances by minimizing the uh the apparent odds of success so let's send frodo all by himself and that'll be uh logically the best possible uh odds that we have right because it's the worst possible odds um anyway sam seems to be so concerned about that that he speaks up bilbo is sort of addressing that in a sense as well right and he doesn't think elrond is going to think that way in fact that elrond is going to send out um is going to send out a fair number um also he mentions the reports coming in right when the reports come in have they started yet gandalf um bilbo knows a good deal more uh it would seem certainly than uh than mary and pippen but i suspect even then frodo and sam um frodo himself doesn't seem to know about the plans bilbo is immediately thinking ahead to the next logical step which he anticipates elrond is gonna do right elrond is gonna send out a bunch of scouts to get reports of the surrounding area and he's going to get to work on that right away right so he asks gandalf this uh fairly knowing question right have they started yet gandalf he doesn't ask like they are sending scouts out aren't they right like he knows elrond is going to do this right um and so he is anticipating that they probably would will have been sent out so have they started yet gandalf he asks expecting the answer yes um and he gets the answer yes uh from gandalf and again this also i think is designed to be a reassurance to frodo um yes were you chosen yes you know did this uh undesirable lot fall to you by your own choice and everything but like you know did this fall to you yes um do i pity you for this yes do i feel um as cook was suggesting before a little bit um a little bit of residual guilt right that uh this thing that i started has kind of uh has kind of fallen uh to frodo yes yes i do but the picture that i take from those last couple sentences here is but don't forget guys we're all in this together right this is a big deal the entire energies of the good guys are going to be focused on your support like don't think that this is just gonna be a solo quest it's not or even a duo quest right with you and sam um it's not only that he bilbo is confident that elrond is gonna send out a fair number of people he's gonna give you a bunch of companions to go with you and help you on this journey but also all of rivendell is mobilizing right now right um to advise help um you know indirectly uh as um as best as uh as best as they can um yeah um yeah interesting trifle says it's possible the scouts were decided upon after sam sits down at the end of the last chapter the council doesn't end there yeah no i agree it is possible um i mean the cut at the end of the chapter um you're right trifle it's not like that is the um um you know everybody gets up and leaves you know after that uh comment from sam um they may have talked about it and decided it then um but um uh but i don't know i mean uh um it's possible it's possible um i mean i guess there's nothing to say there's nothing here that shows that frodo doesn't know this right it could just be purely for mary and pippen's benefit that he's referring to this it's possible but yes of course others are reminding us that there are um uh that you know people had been being sent out already right so um there was already kind of scouting going on and yes i don't doubt that you know i'm sure they didn't come back from the fight at the ford right and uh and then be wait for several days until finally you know bestowing themselves to go out and try to figure out what happened with the nazgul like i'm pretty sure they've been looking for the immediate aftermath of the flood for some time but but clearly the sending out of scouts is definitely an extra uh an extra step here now nancy that's a really good question um nancy asks where eledon and elro hear late editions like arwen or were they there from the start trying to remember nancy i think they were there i i'm i'm trying to recall specific references to them but i think they were there i mean i think they were there any of you who have the return of the shadow might look it up and see if they're referred to in the return of the shadow um frankly or the treason of eisenguard either one um because irwin is not until very very late um but um but yeah i think i don't believe i don't think i don't think elrond was childless beforehand it's just that arwen and the aragorn romance didn't exist initially um but um yeah yeah um emily it is quite possible that um the outcome of the with since uh i you know as i've been arguing i think that elrond and gandalf both had a pretty clear idea of where the council was headed right of what the basic conclusion was going to be um and gandalf i think more confidently even than elrond knew exactly you know had a a clear idea that frodo was going to be the ring bearer um but um uh anyway um yeah could they have had them like standing by and waiting might they have left already you know even before the end of the council um it is it is possible as there are very few outcomes of the council that are imaginable for which not having information about the surrounding countryside would be good right uh anything that they even if they had decided to do nothing and hold the ring and hope that you know they could defend it or something you know even if they tried one of the more passive um solutions they'd still want to know what was going on um but okay jj doesn't see any mention of them in the return of the shadow or the treason of eisenguard it's possible it's possible yeah i'm uh yeah i don't have any clear recollection of i don't remember they don't stick in my head from when we were doing um uh the exploring the lord of the rings series in myth guard academy they don't stick in my head as being a late edition like irwin but it's possible it's possible i don't i also don't have any specific memory of them being there either um okay yeah yeah um okay good trifle says the comprehensive index is only putting mentions of them in volumes eight and nine okay well hang on there's a reference an eight really okay right okay yeah in the war of the ring sure yeah okay sorry getting my volume numbers wrong okay um yeah yeah um yeah arden crane remember they will show up um the eledon and no row here will be at the battle pill in our field they'll come down with the rangers uh later on yeah um but they're always very peripheral characters i mean there's certainly no solid just if you just judge internally by the evidence of the text there's nothing that suggests that they are you know an integral part of the narrative early on right they could easily have been squeezed in because there are only a few references to them um they're a little bit better integrated than arwen um into the story but not too much um yeah yeah anyway okay um yeah curtsimus i can believe that it's a squeezing situation i agree it it's consistent with it anyway um yeah yeah um yeah um okay so what's up with the scouts here gandalf says some of the scouts have been sent out already more will go tomorrow elrond is sending elves and they will get in touch with the rangers and maybe with randul's folk in merkwood and aragorn has gone with elrond's sons okay so i've no doubt as several of you are suggesting that there has been some relatively continuous scouting going on um not only since frodo arrived but before that as evidenced by gorfindle being sent out and others being sent out in other directions looking for frodo so we know that there has been a whole bunch of general scouting that has been happening but scouts are now being sent out with a new purpose because the decision has been made the scouts would have been sent out with different purposes they would still send scouts out no matter what as i say that seems fairly clear um but the scouts are now being sent out with a new mission and that is to try to figure out how the party should travel right by what ways are they gonna go are they gonna cross the mountains are they gonna go see you know how are they gonna go how are they gonna go what is the safest route for them to take and what exactly are they facing remember they don't know um there's a lot they don't know yet right they don't know what happened with the nozzle but it's not just that right it's not just that because they're going far elrond is sending elves and they will get in touch with the rangers and maybe with thranduil's folk in merkwood so they're scouts being sent all the way over the mountains to merkwood are they scouting the um um are they scouting the the roads over the mountains the passes over the mountains that probably has to be part of what they're doing trying to figure out remember remember what happened last time by last time i mean the hobbit um in the hobbit you will you may recall that at the end the beginning of chapter four i should say when they leave rivendell they are sent off and there's this whole paragraph which emphasizes how dangerous it is to cross the mountains in the wild but fortunately for bilbo and his friends they have been they have been set on the right road to the right paths right because they have their wise friend elrond and uh their wise guide uh you know their wide wise guy the wizard gandalf and so they knew the right road to the right path uh to take over the to take over the mountains which of course turns out to be tragically untrue right that in fact the past um their information the information of their good and wise friends gandalf and elrond is antiquated right and the goblins have now laid you know traps their front porch now goes off onto that pass and so the advice of elrond and gandalf has turned out to be almost catastrophically wrong in fact um so there's almost a sense in which um they don't want to do that again right um let's uh let's not er and all the ponies died jaytow exactly exactly um yes yes um now of course fourth dauntless as you point out um the misfortune of being captured by the goblins is only the first of the several misfortunes that lead them to the unique good fortune not only of completing their mission uh but also of the finding of the ring so it's not like no good came of it right and yet uh it still was clearly poor uh poor poor planning and mad violinist i agree we do need to make sure that the ponies uh do a little better this time than last time right um but um uh anyway so okay yeah bricktails is asking they can't go down through the gap of rohan so is there any other option aside from the general moria area this is interesting because on the one hand in the hobbit it sounds like there are several passes that can be taken [Music] not all of them equally good necessarily but there are several passes which can in theory be taken um in the lord of the rings he seems to have limited that somewhat there's there's there's the red horn gate right um and there's um you know there's that one trip over the mountains there's the uh there's the um way under the mountains of course which is much less usually taken and then of course there's the gap of rohan in the south it does not sound anymore like there are a wide number of paths to take over the mountains um partly i think that this is um uh partly i think that this is due to increased world building on tolkien's part like he he knows the mountains better now uh he's worked out the histories much more clearly um he he has a clear idea of this it is possible um michael that um some of the other passes could be too far north for a trip to mordor though michael i think they could still be um they could still theoretically be in play though and again that might be one of the things that's being scouted right the red horn gate is the only one in the lord of the rings that gets mentioned not just during the journey of the um of the uh uh of the company but in most other contexts as well um so uh anyway um you're right also matt that's a really good point that they're planning to cross the mountains in winter which also presumably limits their options uh a fair bit and i absolutely agree uh there yeah so let's say there are a bunch of passes that don't get named and don't get mentioned many other times um in which case this has got to be one of the major things that the scouts are trying to figure right because remember what are the implications what are the implications of the nozzle showing up up here right like they did up in bree and the shire and being right there on the outskirts of rivendell um has there been have they were they the the the leading figures of this wave of scouts spies um even you know uh uh you know armed uh groups i mean it's possible right um gondor no longer keeps secure the crossings of the river right so who knows what sauron has been able to do if the nazgul have come um how long can it be i mean that's obviously by itself the worst case scenario right i mean like it doesn't get worse than the nazgul coming out um but there are others too remember even gandalf back in chapter you know back in bag end in book one chapter two was still saying things you know was still worried about the spies of the enemy being all over the place right how much more is that to be feared now that the nazgul have come out right the nazgul could have made more spies of the enemy um the witch king right could have you know daunted and suborned um other local people who hadn't previously been in the service of mordor as we see in brie right we get a taste of that and see how that could work so who knows how much damage has already happened right also remember what gandalf reported about the um sort of the rumor and evidence of the passing of the naz ghoul that he encountered during his ride down to orthok right there's um their presence here it changes things by itself in addition to the fact that again they could just be the first of many uh you know groups or uh scouts or spies or emissaries um that sauron has sent out um they also will have changed things themselves uh by their very presence so what are they facing what kind of opposition are they facing what kind of uh what kind of enemy uh you know spies or um ambushes might they have to fear when they're headed out and as nancy says that's not even a mention sauron's uh in the shire yes now i'm trying to think of what evidence aragorn is going to respond to the finding of uh long bottom leaf in uh or thunk you know in in eisenguard as a revelation right like that's uh um that he means to talk to gandalf about right um to what extent gandalf knows about this um does gandalf know or suspect or believe that saruman has had dealings with the shire yet i don't know what evidence there is for that footnote i know about the evidence in unfinished tales in the essay not the essay on the astari um i think it's in the hunt for the ring in unfinished tales um tolkien says that gandalf knew all along that sarman uh had visited the shire and had taken up smoking pipeweed um but i am discounting that as i can i'm just counting that um it is i find that section of the hunt for the ring really problematic um uh we can have a conversation about that at another time but i find that section really problematic so i'm not um gonna be uh worrying about that right now um yeah um yeah um yeah brick tails you're right that sauron says that gent that he knew that gandalf had been you know his skulking place in the shire right um suggesting he had spies up that way yes possibly um though there are many ways he could have learned about that i don't think gandalf has not made a secret of his friendship with the shire folk um you know over the years and he's been friends with the shire folk already for decades uh many decades by this time um but um yeah exactly as let's be honest owner was just saying gandalf hasn't been keeping that a secret so um i don't think that there would be any reason to believe that sauron is um he would only know that uh by uh by spying um but um uh but yeah yeah i think it's um um it's certainly possible and yes you're right we will get something from elrond fairly soon that suggests that he suspects that um more on that i guess uh in a bit uh when we get there but um anyway the point is we uh we don't know there's there's a lot that they don't know about the circumstances around them what are they going to be up against it is very important that they not be discovered in a sense of course this is like a big picture version of exactly the same conversation um the beginning of chapter three is kind of beginning the same way that the beginning of the previous chapter three began right after the big council in which the thing was decided in chapter two right both the shadows of the past and the council of elrond at the beginning of chapter three starts with uh gandalf talking to frodo about setting out and then talking about the plan for how they will set up how they will set out and um how they'll try to keep their secret right remember that's the conversation in which frodo um uh says he's gonna set out for rivendell and not leave an address at the post office and uh you know and then he of course decides to go move to buckland um but um so here we have the same kind of pattern again right um the enemy must not know at first for as long as possible what direction they have set off um my suspicion based on what was said in the council of elrond it seems to me most likely that elrond gandolf and the rest of them are going to be trying to fake sauron out to fake him out into thinking that they're taking the ring to the sea because that's as elrond himself says during the council that's what they've done too often before that's the obvious route for them to take um it would seem to be the elves go-to response now cursiveness asks why would sauron think they're leaving rivendell at all well they might not um what would sauron think what sauron would think is now that the ring has been taken to rivendell obviously someone's gonna claim it right i mean clearly there are a bunch of people in rivendell who could wield the ring well several at least who could wield the ring um and whom sauron would need to fear if they did right so clearly that's obviously what's going to happen because they're not going to forbear to take up the ring i mean kind of a loser would do that right um so that's not really that's not really a question the question is which one of them is going to do it what are they going to do with it so yes that's what he would that's what he would suspect most if they do try to make off with the ring maybe the elves are big enough cowards that they're going to do their little elf thing and run off to the ocean and try to scamper back uh towards the valar right that would be a kind of an elfish uh you know a sort of an elfish trick right but um yeah yeah that's um either way what they don't want is for him to have any clear idea of where the ring is so we've got to uh we've got to you know watch out for that um yeah um right bjorning that's what i was just thinking of gandalf says later that sauron will look for conflict among his enemies as the ring is claimed and then look for an offensive against him with the power of the ring yes exactly exactly um and that's likely the kind of thing that his um spies are going to be looking for um jj says this could also explain holding back the nas goal one possibility would uh be someone taking the ring to ministerith which means the war effort needs to be stepped up to try to cut them off so the nazgul would be held back to aid the war effort rather than sending them out his searchers also remember sending out the nazgul that's a commitment you know i mean um i mean if the nazis were off in one place they're not somewhere else right so um and also remember another thing scattering the nozzle though it seems much more efficient is not necessarily more efficient the nazgul are much more powerful when they're all gathered together so just sending two of them here and one of them over there and two of them there to try to cover all the possible bases um though again it seems like the you know the the shrewdest course uh for sauron to take um is not necessarily a good move because a loner in pairs the nazgul would have a harder time um standing up to uh uh well a bunch of folks such as gorfindle for instance um yeah i don't go so far as to say that i think they probably um you know sent out a bunch of fake ring parties out in other directions and stuff but um but i don't know i don't know if that kind of thing is impossible what do you think gorfinda was doing when they left rivendell right um um i can imagine a lot right i can i can imagine a lot i could imagine uh gorfindle for instance being sent off uh towards the coast hoping that it would uh take the you know send gorfindo off to the havens um hoping that that that'll get the attention of the scouts right and they'll be saying like hey you know um so right after you know the ring arrived in uh in imledris um glorfindle goes herring off towards uh towards the gray havens this is it right i could totally believe that um but um anyway you know it's we don't have any evidence as to what exactly they were doing there in rivendell after the rest of them left um yes nancy exactly he would be accompanying galdor back to the haven so uh also making sure he doesn't get in any trouble on the way i suppose um yeah yeah um exactly jj he he'd have to be especially conspicuous right but look to creatures who um dwell um at all in the spiritual world like gorfiddle's pretty darn conspicuous so uh um yeah yeah um yep um so yeah i think that that's that seems to me very very plausible um connecting with randul's folk in merkwood also suggests they're really covering all the bases here right um because you know we're talking about the northernmost passes like the the straight road to erebor being perhaps not really in play because they're headed south but straight south doesn't necessarily mean you know the question is where are you going to go south on this side of the mountains or on the other side right um it might make more sense for them to cross over the passes further in the north and then go down the river all the way or then go through murkwood and come down at mordor from the other side that's also possible right um so that would seem to be one of the things that they could um you know liaise with frandul's folk and merkwood about hey so how are conditions in merck wood right is it at all safe to get through here right um could we do this you know could we help to make this happen um aragorn is gone with elrond's sons um and of course we'll learn more later about exactly what that trip was about um but um yeah yeah anyway so there's there are definitely a lot of options that they have and they're trying to figure out what is going to be the safest and best route that will help them to not be spotted most clearly so but the result is cheer up frodo you prob you will probably make quite a long stay here um says gandalf as if he knew exactly the longing that was in frodo's mind uh before he made his choice right um that line has always been very striking to me right um frodo has said that he would like to go and explore up in the pine woods and stuff so it doesn't have to be uh gandalf actually literally reading frodo's mind during the council um but it is interesting how he is responding directly to that um you will get a chance to be here with bilbo in rivendell for quite a long stay right um you're not going to have to dash straight out um yeah yeah um all right jj says sauron thinks they'll send the ring with galdor only because keller born wasn't at the meeting oh you mean in choosing the la the least the least likely candidate yeah yeah i see um yes yes now flammable i agree that aragorn dragged gollum north through merkwood um uh without much trouble from guldor not long ago but that was also before the orcs invaded merckwood for the rescue of gollum so what have conditions been like since then um if the boundaries of merkwood and even the wood itself is full of marauding orc parties like the one that attempted to rescue gollum um suspiciously well-informed orc marauding parties maybe mark wood isn't in fact the best route to take and dolguldur is it just as while lothlorian might be a good reason uh for them to you know go cross the mountains further north and then head straight down the river uh towards la florian um doguldor is a pretty good reason for them not to go that way because between the mountains um which have a much higher goblin population these days again uh and dolguldor um it's uh pretty tricky terrain uh in through there yeah yeah um no dog golder is not dormant um with sauron in bharadur um he has lieutenants there still they're still keeping the shop running um there are orcs at dol guldor um and uh one of the nazgul will be sent there um and uh yeah yeah exactly it's gonna be a center of uh it's a sufficient military force that there will be um a significant battle um you know near the same time as the battle of hell in our field yep yeah um yes so the nazgul were there right before like they i think they met up there didn't they and didn't i didn't know which guy i'm trying to remember now it was only like a few weeks ago that i reread the hunt for the ring but i believe when tolkien was kind of putting it together in the part of hunt for the ring that i find slightly less problematic um the witch king crosses the river and then heads up and meets up with them at dull gold or anyway they're they're the uh you know uh kamel was up there at uh del guldor prior to the gathering together and the heading off towards the shire um but all of the orcs they weren't by themselves like all of the orcs that they were running down there in douglador were there were still there presumably after they left um yeah yeah arden crown that's a wonderful question why did gimli and legolas stay in rivendell after the council instead of returning to their homes did they know that they would be part of the fellowship really great question first of all i can't rule it out um i can't rule it out um well i don't want to get too far ahead of this we'll talk about this again when they get volunteered by elrond later on um when they are named by elrod i should say um we'll talk about it then um but don't let me forget this question because it's a really they have a quite a while and it would seem council's over right um decisions have been made why stick around um you know the erebor squad they came they gave their message uh glowing still around right are they hanging around for an indefinite period of time now one thing uh to keep in mind is that um they're not going to be eager to travel back in the winter time they could probably still make it right if they set out right away immediately after the council um but uh but still um we'll talk about that later it is a great question it's a great question because you'd think once the council was done they would head home um yeah yeah um and yeah be honest and i agree that is one direction i was just thinking that um uh he says i do think as modern people we forget that when you make a massive journey you're not going to just turn around and leave the next day yes exactly and staying somewhere like when you go on a long journey and you arrive at a place even just for a short visit staying for you know a minimum of like a month it's not weird like staying only a day or two and then leaving again that's what's weird that's very very unusual um so yes that would be um um that would be very very normal especially again especially with winter coming up i mean it's already october when the council of elrond is happening so you know that elrond would say to glowan and you know his company from arab or you know stay with us over the winter and when spring comes go back home would be a perfectly normal hospitable thing for him to do and it would not be strange for them to accept that hospitality um uh so yeah yeah um so i agree bjornison that was the first thing i was thinking that uh um it seems i think it would seem less strange um in this uh in this context um exactly yes as uh jj is recalling on the way back from the lonely mountain bilbo and gandalf wintered with bjorn um yeah exactly exactly um so yeah i think that that's uh that's that's that's the kind of thing that you do right um all right let's do a second slide i want to get to the poem because winter is coming in fact uh just like in the uh you know one of the things that was particularly delightful about my myth mood experience this year is that now the phrase winter is coming will no longer no longer makes me think of house stark uh and game of thrones uh i will now always associate it uh with the soviet lord of the rings but anyway um snow and snow trifle that's exactly it that's exactly it snow and snow uh okay anyway ah said sam gloomily we'll just wait long enough for winter to come that can't be helped said bilbo it's your fault partly frodo my lad insisting on waiting for my birthday a funny way of honoring it i can't help thinking not the day i should have chosen for letting the sb's into bag end but there it is you can't wait now till spring and you can't go till the reports come back when winter first begins to bite and stones crack in the frosty night when pools are black and trees are bare tis evil in the wild to fare but that i am afraid will be just your luck okay um first thing sam this is not the last time that sam will interject with a gloomy and despondent comment ah said sam gloomily we'll just wait long enough for winter to come um how do we read this how do we read this how do we read sam yes it bjorning it does sound kind of puddle glam-esque right um it also to think of a non-uh lewis i think of a tolkien parallel um it kind of reminds me of uh of sunny sam the blacksmith from farmer giles of ham yeah it's it is important to notice that sam is not a particularly cheerful guy right sam is going to be by the end of the book spoiler sam is going to be one of the great exemplars of hope um i mean yeah he will be one of the people who will most powerfully illustrate what hope means and what hope does uh in tolkien but this is not because he's just a hopeful guy he does not have a lot of uh a lot of um deer right he's not optimistic he is very frequently anticipating the worst expecting the worst we'll wait just long enough for winter to come right this is good this is going to be as bad as can be and kit you're right sam is anticipating building campfires and cooking in the snow um he is definitely thinking about the practical difficulties of this right of course one of the things that's interesting about this by itself right is that it suggests that sam is thinking about the journey in a different way than any of the rest of them are in that moment right they're all thinking about the quest they're thinking about setting out for mordor sam's not thinking about mordor sam's thinking about all of the walking through the snow that's gonna happen on the way to mordor right first things first um with uh with sam and i do think that it's um um i do think that it's a uh there's there's a pragmatism in it um yes um but um and yes i agree bjarnasoner in many ways it is sam's job to figure out how to how to manage in sub-optimal circumstances yes um um it is he is thinking of those kinds of practical things because it's his job to think of practical things um he's frodo servant um and so can you know yes thinking about um how to light campfires in the snow and that kind of thing is exactly what he's going to be uh what he's going to be thinking about um but yeah and ambrosius you're certainly right that he's not thinking about the glory of being a hero going on a quest um not at all nor is he thinking about the probable death at the end of the road that's the other side of this right you could say that he's being more pessimistic than the others but you could also say that he is being more hopeful more hopeful in the sense that he's not thinking at all about the really big thing which is that they're all very likely to die a horrible death in mordor before they get there i mean um frodo's tossing off the word hopeless right describing this errand as hopeless earlier on is a good deal more despairing and more importantly despairing than this right if he really believes that the errand itself is hopeless that's kind of a big deal more of a big deal than sam's gloominess about the path on the way there right um and uh yeah as jj said he's rather nearsighted i think it's an interesting way to think about it um but yeah it's in its way he's not expressing hope but the mere fact that he is not the mere fact that he's thinking about trekking through the winter um shows that he is not just obsessing about the apparent hopelessness of the overall quest that they're on and i think that that that tension one thing that we can begin to see that i think we will see more of from sam as we move forward is he cheerful is he hopeful you know in a very sort of uh superficial way no he's not is he is he negative uh is he a bit of a downer often yeah yeah he kind of is he's being gloomy here and he's kind of spreading the gloom around uh by bringing this up and yet he's the one who's kind of focused on the next steps right um he's not he's not worried about the end of the road and we will see this continuing to um uh continuing to come up this kind of thing continue to to to to come up um yeah yeah um that can't be helped it's your fault partly frodo my lad insisting on waiting for my birthday a funny way of honoring it i can't help thinking not the day i should have chosen for letting the sb's into bag end but there it is you can't wait now till spring why does he bring this up his first move that can't be helped it's your fault partly frodo my lad the frodo my lad suggests a um i mean it's he's speaking affectionately right um totally habitually beyond his owner absolutely he teases frodo right he teases frodo it's your fault right um it's your fault frodo um right good job good job you know waiting until like why did you wait until late september to start out you had all summer and if you'd started right away we could have set off uh you know an early autumn and we could have set off by like you know august or something um so he teases frodo about this and then he one-ups it right funny way of honoring my birthday i can't help thinking not the day i should have chosen for letting the sb's into bag end and yes belongs bon frodo is is 50 so he's not exactly a lad anymore but of course he will always be bilbo's lad so that's of course perfectly acceptable um yeah yeah um yes rowan i would agree with bjorning there um uh bjorning or rowan was asking if sam was all um dear and no esto and i agree with bjorning that it's the other way around um all estella no and no i'm deer essentially i think that's what we're going to see later on um yeah yeah exactly um so why does he bring up letting the sackville baggins into bag end on his birthday technically of course as several people pointed out the day after uh his birthday so not exactly on his birthday but still um there's no question that frodo did juxtapose the two things right he insisted on waiting for bilbo's birthday um and he did so he left the shire and sold baghdad to the sackville baggins on bilbo's uh bilbo's birthday a green great dragon is speculating that sb's perhaps stands for spoon burglars um possibly possibly um now belongs monda i agree that he brings it up in part because he really does not like the sb's yes i think so um so but that means what this is an earnest dig at frodo he's really trying to make frodo feel bad about letting the sb's into bag end and on his birthday of all things right is that um is that really what um uh is that really what he's doing here it does sound if that's true that it would be slightly harsh habitry right i mean teasing each other is we see that all over the place right um but it seems a little bit harsh it seems a little bit harsh um uh emily it does sound to me like a deflection i i can't think that this has just been like he's been waiting for a time to drop this one right now like ever since he heard the story he's been bothered by this and now it's just finally you know uh boiled over right and he puts in this dig at frodo i can't believe that that's what happened that's what's happening here i mean first of all they've had lots of chances they had a whole long talk about the shire in the hall of fire before right let's have some real news remember um i'm sure the sale of bag end to the sackville bag and just came up during that time right and if bilbo was upset about it he had lots of opportunities uh to express that um but um um but more more it sounds like why now right why not i think i think it's a deflection right um he's teasing frodo it does seem a little bit harsh why would he tease him in this harsh kind of way right um it is funny in retrospect right like i shall wait in honor of bilbo for his birthday before i leave the shire um and um it is a little bit ironic because of course had he left earlier he could have spent they could have spent their birthday comfortably together uh in rivendell right um but um yeah lupilia you're right that frodo says to gandalf that it will you know or he thinks it's gonna be easier for him to leave right because a part of him always feels more like wandering at that time of year um yeah yeah exactly um yeah matt says if bilbo's doing anything he's mock needling frodo in a manner that distracts him grounding him in the petty issues of the shire rather than the grand sweep of the age yeah exactly um yes it's a little bit harsh but it's harsh on a completely different level right um i also wonder if um if this isn't um also a sorry sneeze um if he isn't if this isn't also a bit of a softball right um frodo could counter this easily right if if this were to be enter into a two-way hobbitry situation um uh frodo could uh could easily respond to this right um and i think i do think that that's kind of the invitation here um let's uh let's change the subject right to uh why uh you let the sackville baggins into bag end um also i think there's a way in which the harshness the apparent harshness of bilbo's comment there kind of rebounds against himself to some extent that there's there's something kind of humble in this that is there's a certain degree of pettiness in this remark about letting the sackville baggins is into back end right um after bilbo had kept them out the feud between bilbo and the sackville baggins is is a quite petty thing right um and if it's petty on otho and lobelia's part it's a little bit petty on bilbo's part too and so again this is another way in which this feels from a homagery standpoint like kind of a softball right um you know one could easily say something like grow up and get over it bilbo right um but um yeah i mean this is uh this kind of a family feud like seriously that's important in any way right now it's even defensible at all frankly right to be maintaining that kind of that kind of family feud of course we will see later on the family feud will be resolved and it will exactly be resolved when things which are much more obviously important um arise right to kind of um take over the place of them exactly green great dragon lobelia's grace is going to be uh what ends it yeah yeah exactly um yeah so i do think drowsnik that bobo's offering uh a distraction from the greater problem at hand by bringing up the espys and again i wonder if there's even a way in which he's almost offering himself to be the butt of a joke right i mean one can imagine people coming back to bilbo and being like oh bilbo like how can you even say that like that's so not fair right you can one could imagine even if frodo doesn't come back adam mary or pippin coming in to uh you know make a uh make a witty and insulting comment on uh on frodo's behalf or something like that um uh yeah yeah so he does seem to be kind of offering that i i that as bilbo's motivation for bringing up the sackville baggins is here seems to me much more fitting and much more likely under the circumstances of bilbo as we've seen him then merely like i'm gonna get a dig in because this has still been really bothering me and i haven't had a chance to yell at you about this yet frodo um i i can't think that he's interrupting that um yeah yeah um yeah exactly uh being petty in an exaggerated manner in order to make frodo laugh um yeah yeah something like that something like that it feels to me much more right there um and then he leaves it right but there it is you can't wait now till spring and you can't go till the reports come back and then he indulges in a poem when winter first begins to bite and stones crack in the frosty night when pools are black and trees are bare tis evil in the wild to fare what do you notice about the poem what meters it in hobbit meter uh-huh when winter first begins to bite iambic tetrameter all the way right um in fact several of these lines are perfect iambic tetrameter i mean perfect when pools are black and trees are bare it does not get more perfect than that not only is that an absolutely unvarying eight syllable line in a perfect iambic tetrameter format it's not just that right notice also the simplicity of it it's eight monosyllabic words right um and more all of the stressed words a start with consonants hard consonants pools black trees bear right whereas all of the unstressed words start either with vowels or with wh a really soft consonant right it is literally impossible to misread that line right i mean that is a line which scans itself it's like um that line is to serious poetry what uh like what a beginner sampler is to embroidery you know um like that is textbook iambic tetrameter that is how you teach hobbit meter to people when pools are black and trees are bare tis evil in the wild to fair and the first one is very similar when winter first begins to bite um uh similar it's not as that third line is the one which is just like holy cow right i mean you see that of course not only do you have the hard consonants but you have alliteration there too with the two b's um it's not as just like absolutely perfect uh in that way yeah valoria does sound like a child's poem to teach them recitation it sure does in fact you know i can't help but wonder bilbo is talking to is addressing frodo but he's responding to sam his former pupil whom he taught poetry i would bet you anything that this verse that he's reciting here is one that sam knows is one that he bilbo used when he was teaching sam his letters um sometime during sam's education with bilbo um i bet you uh that he used this and that um uh bilbo again he's addressing frodo but he's he's aiming this it's sam i think um and uh yeah oh jj fine you're right it's not quite sure it's jj's not quite sure it's fair to bet on something that's completely impossible to prove or disprove it just makes it a safe bet that's all as i can't possibly lose my money so you're right not quite fair indeed um but um uh but yeah it does it definitely sounds um it definitely sounds that it uh uh it has that kind of air right so we'll kind of come back to that in a minute but let's let's keep looking at the poem itself um when winter first begins to bite what else do you notice we talked about the meter the actual rhythm of the lines tell me what else you hear in this poem when winter first begins to bite and stones crack in the frosty night when pools are black and trees are bare tis evil in the wild to fare yeah there's a bunch of alliteration good yeah let's start with the rhyme scheme bjorning that's a that's a a big the the big shape of it right a a b b really simple right um uh we've got two couplets right two couplets only um which means by the way that um one of the kind of functions of that is it it kind of splits the verse in half uh to some extent right it doesn't the rhyme scheme doesn't interweave the lines together right we have the first two lines and then the last two lines so that's one of the uh sort of inevitable effects of doing it in couplets rather than doing an abab um pattern but anyway yes as several of them several you were talking about there's um there's a lot of alliteration here especially in that first line right when winter first begins to bite um we have five primary consonantal sounds right um win winter and begins to bite two is technically one but it's a preposition and an unstressed syllable we've got the two w's and the two b's with the f in the middle right when winter first begins to bite so the first is the pivot word in that first line with the with the alliteration making the the first the word first right the the the f sound there the pivot of the line when winter first begins to bite and stones crack in the frosty night uh so we get a repetition of the f uh leading up to that first rhyme right um uh and stones crack in the frosty knight we don't repeat that same pattern right um we don't repeat the alliterative pattern in fact we don't get any iteration in the second line other than that callback to the f which was in that prominent pivotal place there right um yeah yeah um and then um oh good yeah matt you're right uh matt is pointing out that the start of the lines do some interweaving right where we have the uh uh the winds at the beginning of lines one and three right so we got a parallel between the two um notice also how we're getting a lot of build up um well we'll come back to the syntax in a minute first things first always start with the sound i always start with the sound anyway i start with the sound and the shape um then we can talk about the syntax and then you know like what it's actually talking about but okay and stone's crack in the frosty night um a couple people were talking about onomatopoeia i agree crack uh is a really prominent piece of onomatopoeia there but more why else does that word stand out do you notice crack is a really prominent i i think is is the prominent word in that second line why yes exactly fourth dauntless and beyonce's honor it breaks the meter for the first time when winter first begins to bite and stones crack in the frosty night right um that foot is backwards after stones should come your ear is ready for an unstressed syllable when winter first begins to bite and stones that's what we expect right but we don't get it instead we get crack um not only a stressed syllable but i mean you can't help but stress that syllable but also notice how the vowel sound stands out when winter first begins to bite all those i sounds right and eyes and short e's in the first line and stones crack in the frosty knight crack that ah sound in the middle of that line is uh unmistakable it's loud right you hear it um uh and um and again by breaking the meter there he makes it really super jump out right by the way this is why you pay attention to meter because if you if you if you train your ear to attune itself to the basic meter the basic metrical pattern that a poet is using then you get a whole new set of cues to notice things um that you would miss if you didn't have that um so yes when winter first begins to bite and stones crack in the frosty night when pools are black and trees are bare tis evil in the wild to fair um tis evil in the wild to fair is still a perfect diambic line it's really that one place crack in is the only place in the entire four lines where the poem really breaks the meter um though the last line is certainly less metronomic uh in its uh beat than line three for sure um yeah yeah yeah i lipili i agree all of the uh the the a sounds are uh are really strong yeah in the poem yes um because of course as several of you are pointing out we pick up on that sound in line three right away when pools are black and trees are bare tis evil in the wild to fare black also is a pivotal word in that third line right because first of all because of that internal rhyme between crack and black crack is the word that jumps out in line two and then black is right there in the middle of line three um right you know which our ear catches because of the the startling uh crack that we got there in the second line but also we get alliteration we had the b alliteration in line one and we get a b alliteration in line uh in line three as well when pools are black and trees are bare yeah yeah so notice each of the first three lines has this emphasis on that central word which is kind of cool because that's not every day right um often the rhyming word at the end is important i mean the fact that it is the rhyming word kind of makes it important but you know sometimes at the beginning but to have the central word in the lines be significant sets up it's interesting and it sets us up for a new pattern and what is the result of this pattern when winter first begins to bite and stones crack in the frosty night when pools or blackened trees are bare tis evil in the wild to fare what is the result the result is it builds us up for the central word in the last line right um we've we have that pattern in our years now right to hit that to focus on that central word and in the last line the wild is the middle is that central place right tis evil in the wild to fair um wild is really where this poem rests um this is not an anti-winter poem right this is not winter's awful everywhere um when winter first begins to bite and stones crack in the frosty night when pools are black and trees are bare there are lots of ways we could end this poem right um like you know uh you know uh sit by the fire without a care for instance would work right like uh you know this there could be lots of cheerful ways we could end this poem right um but where it gets us to in the end is the wild exactly as arenas says stay home yeah exactly um tis evil in the wild to fair don't go out in the wild in the end this functions in the end this functions as a as a a lore poem right this is the thing that you repeat to yourself to remind yourself don't go out on a journey in the wild in the winter time right just like there's probably a similar poem about how you should remember not to start a land war in asia um but uh this is about not going on a long journey in the wild um and uh yeah yeah um and yes green great dragon you are so right um wild is a wild word a diphthong in two closing consonants it is a it is we haven't gotten that kind of word again think of the number of simple monosyllables when pools are black and trees are bare um and then we get wild as the center and how different that is from crack and black um uh so yes the the the word in the fourth line that the you know where like the focal point of our attention comes to is uh a wild word right it is i agree it's uh it's not like the sound of the word that uh like the sound that we might have been expecting there at the end um yeah yeah um it's not a tame word no it is definitely not it is definitely not um and i agree evil is not the focus of that last line evil is an adjective right um it is evil to fair in the wild like it's not good it's not good um um this is um a sort of lesser usage of the word evil i mean evil is still pretty strong um like it's it's worse than saying it's bad to fair in the wild like it's evil to fair in the wild it's that's suggests it's a little bit worse but um but i agree the stress is definitely not on evil the stress is on wild i mean it is evil in the wild affair like that's the that last thing and notice not only is that last line the what the momentum builds the sound up to it is also what the momentum of the syntax build us up to right um what do we have how does what's the syntactic structure of this is one sentence right it's one sentence with multiple subordinate clauses leading up to one simple statement right when winter first begins to bite and stones crack in the frosty night when pools are black and trees are bare there's all this like when this happens and this other thing happens when this other thing also happens then what then what right and then we finally get the independent cause at the end tis evil in the wild to fair um yeah yeah um now be honest i don't want to emphasize the wild thing too much i'm not saying that evil gets no stress at all at the end i mean it's those are the there are three important words in that last line tis evil in the wild to fair right at the end of the day that's the moral of this particular poem right don't go faring in the wild it is evil to fair in the wild in wintertime people like keep this in mind let's not forget that um but um uh yeah when pools are black and trees are bare tis evil in the wild to fare um yes yes um so those those three lines are the concept and because this is the independent clause right what's the what's the what's the verb what is the main verb of that sentence what's the what's the main verb yeah is tis is the subject and verb of the sentence right tiz um which is um which is cool um um tis evil in the wild fair um okay something else i was gonna say what else was i gonna say oh yeah back to the bigger context um oh no wait i wanted to emphasize that point some of you guys were making i forget who it was a little while ago but i thought it was a really cool idea about the prominence of labial consonants in this poem super cool totally agree um all the b's b's and p's uh that happen here um uh i like that and yes crack completely breaks that pattern cracks really stands out that way with all the um with all the labials uh that are going on there um yeah b w f are all alliterated on yes uh exactly so we've got all this labial stuff going on here in this poem and it does it is another one of those things that makes crack really really stand out um yeah um so this is a fun poem um by the way one last note on the structure and shape of this poem i am 100 convinced that bilbo wrote this poem um 100 convinced that bilbo wrote this poem because it is in hobbit structure and i say that it's not like no other you know sentient creatures use iambic tetrameter ever but it's pretty noteworthy um if you collect together which i did once um in my tolkien's poetry class collect together at signum if you if you collect together all of the rhymes of lore that are included this is an unusual structure for a rhyme of lore um pretty commonly um there is more um troche involved um than any other subset of of tolkien's poetry and anyway so i am i i think that this is designed to be a hobbit poem of lore as opposed to merely a translation of an elvish poem of lore and bilbo is the one who comes out with it it's possible of course that he's reciting a traditional hobbit um you know rhyme of lord except it's possible yes so anna it is possible that some other hobbit could have written it long ago um it is possible but i don't think so uh now we do have evidence that some sayings from older and more adventurous times still survived even in the comparatively stayed shire of bilbo's youth um we can tell from the kinds of expressions that bungo baggins apparently used to say about never laughing at live dragons and that kind of thing or you know um i there were dragon related sayings remember that bilbo is quoting his father is saying though he bilbo is certain that it was not from personal experience every worm has its weak spot right that was one of bungos um so um so yes it's um it's it's fairly uh it's fairly clear i think that some of that lore survives um but i don't think that i don't see much evidence that rhymes of this kind were passed down what's more forth knowledge is exactly where i was just going um if this is a rhyme of lord it's not much of one it doesn't tell you anything you'd have a difficult time remembering yes normally rhymes of lore um uh you know are things like what gandalf recites to himself right um you know what brought they from the foundered land over the flowing sea that that that verse is the one i'm talking about um rhymes of lor or you know that other rhyme of lord that we've that we've talked about um you know three rings for the elven kings etc etc um that's also a rhyme of lord um yes rhymes of lore normally are a way of encoding lore right encoding important information in ways that people will remember that's not what this is i agree with several of you saying that it um it sounds more almost like a riddle it certainly has a similar shape to some of the riddles that bilbo and gollum were using but at the same time it's not riddling right there's no riddle to it at all i think that this is a piece this is why i think this is a piece of bilbo's verse i don't think that this is um it's possible this could be handed down from hobbit antiquity i can't prove it can't prove it but here we go jj i'm gonna lay money on something that's unprovable again i don't think it is and the reason i don't think it is um is that this this just to me sounds like bilbo and what's more again i think of the context why does he recite a winter poem here well because he's bilbo and he outs with poems that you know the mo at the you know at the darnest times um sure i can kind of get that here too but um but again i think he's responding to sam this is where i come back to this um and just to the whole tone of it this sounds like a kid's verse not like uh you know a verse of lore that lore masters would hand it doesn't sound like that at all this sounds like a rhyme out of a kid's book even out of a how to read kids book when pools are black and trees are bare tis evil in the wild to fair right that sounds exactly like a poem that i in my head bilbo wrote a little like um uh you know primer for sam and uh and you know probably other kids uh in hobbiton and this is one of the uh poems uh that he that he wrote to help them learn how to read um it just that sounds exactly exactly like this um or rather i should say that's exactly what this sounds like to me can't you see this can't you see this poem on a picture yeah sure maybe with like some watercolor around it right of like uh you know um uh wind-driven snow right and somebody like walking along trying to block the you know absolutely absolutely um um valoria could absolutely see it cross-stitched yeah but i'm imagining it in like a picture book right um um especially now you might ask why would he be doing poems at all when he's teaching them to read and my answer is because sam is his pupil right and sam of course would have been very quick to learn lines that we we can see what a good pupil uh sam was of bilbo's uh poetry um so i absolutely do think um that um this sounds to me if it isn't it certainly could easily be um one of the lessons that he had written for sam and under the circumstances i really love the idea that that's what's going on here that he's kind of ex i see bilbo exchanging a private smile with sam here right because remember he's not just responding to frodo he's responding to sam and he's not just responding to sam he's responding to sam's gloomy pronouncement he's having it he's this is hobbitry hobbitry i think to sam we'll wait just long enough for winter to come and bilbo's like ah but i know what you're thinking right now right when winter first begins to bite am i right am i right um yeah yeah um uh yeah rowan says not on the text but sam is putting his hands behind his back yeah exactly um i think this is an inside joke with sam but that i'm afraid will be just your luck he says cheerfully and kind of teasingly right um yeah yeah so exactly rachel i like that rachel and uh uh youtube says a harbit a hobbit's garden of verses exactly that's just exactly what i imagine bilbo wrote uh for sam and then can't you see it um like later versions of it you know later on when you know sam proved to be uh such an apt uh have such an apt ear for poetry um and by the way in case you're wondering what evidence we have for that i think we have plenty of evidence right uh that sam has a a sharp not only a sharp ear for but a love of poetry not only his recitation of bilbo's poem um you know the go-go ad poem but also his composition of his own poem right the troll song uh that he sings uh not to mention his comments on uh gimli's poem right the moria poem i should like to learn it right as he's saying this is the thing that sam does i like that i should like to learn it right and of course what we were saying way back when right back in chapter what was it back in chapter two um when he begins himself to pass into a chanting and lyrical mode in the middle of his conversation with ted sandyman sailing they're sailing sailing sailing away and leaving us um yeah yeah um the recitation of the oliphant song so i mean yeah there's uh all kinds of reasons to and when sam is looking for comfort right when he is near despair at what he believes to be the end of his road what does he do he sings song right he recites poetry this is that's what sam does right so i think there's a lot of reason to believe that sam has a a great love for uh and aptitude for uh verse in poems um so yeah absolutely um uh now drawsnake that's a fascinating question is this the first instance of sam being included in hobbitry hmm hmm i don't remember well there's no pippin's given it to him before pippin is is clearly teasing sam when he's remember that morning when he's like you know sam you know have you got the water hot um he's teasing sam there right that's definitely habitry uh at sam's expense um brick sales i do agree i think that there's some back at crick hollow um they're teasing sam about um uh you know him going on parole right uh from being their investigator and stuff um so uh so yeah there's there uh there's definitely um but i agree that there's less um he is not so much a target of the hubba tree as uh as the others perhaps um yeah exactly exactly um yeah he dried up musical exactly that's definitely a habitry comment um yep um now 4th thoughtless says sam doesn't get it from frodo which makes bilbo an unusual source that's true but bilbo's his old teacher so bilbo and sam have a different relationship right sam is frodo's servant um you know they uh frodo's not gonna tease sam in that same way right um he's not gonna treat sam like that but to bilbo to bilbo sam is just his uh his former pupil and that's quite a different relationship okay well surprise surprise the poem took me longer than usual uh i didn't i'm i'm going over time and i shouldn't do um but uh we'll uh but we still pretty much got through two slides including a poem i would add right which is like kind of something but i guess it doesn't really count as an impressive accomplishment if uh if i go over time but anyway i should let you guys go it is uh uh it is later than it should be uh thank you for joining me again as i said i'll be back i'll be here the next two weeks first two weeks of august um i will be um i'll be here as normal um i'm gonna be going away in the middle of august so the last two uh tuesdays of august i'll be away again i'll be road tripping to north dakota and back with my son um for the whole college drop off thing but uh but for the next two weeks after this i will be here so um i for those of you who will not be joining us on the field trip i will see you then uh and for the rest of you let us it is time to go to a new area as we have uh finished the um the place where we were oh hang on a second that's just not what i want to do um anyway how are you velori doing all right i'm so happy we were on the same wavelength for that because like the the minute i started thinking about it and then i thought of child's poem i immediately saw sam standing there staring at the ceiling hands behind his back going when winter first begins to point on stone's crack in the frosty night when he's nine years old or something absolutely absolutely no i bet you sam learn you're right i bet you sam learned that when he was um you know definitely in single digits no questions no questions yeah no i think that's awesome um i love that uh i love that image um and uh especially and it's especially touching since i bet you that nobody else and possibly even frodo in the room gets it like that's like an inside that would be an inside joke just between bilbo and sam um yeah they were funny families they would have learned their letters from probably like tutors and stuff yeah yeah they certainly would wouldn't have been in wouldn't have been in class with sam yeah yeah um yeah now jj asks a very attractive question did sam learn it from billboard did he compose it for bilbo as part of his lessons that would be even more fun if sam had written that poem um but i think probably probably the other way around it doesn't sound much like sam again if if with the troll song as uh as our uh our marker for what uh authentic sam verse sounds like uh it doesn't sound that much like sam um all right so we're going back to [Music] uh looks like lindelby over here yeah so we're gonna go back to window b and then we're gonna we're gonna stablemaster over uh up to by framsberg and then head north we're going to go up to uh um up towards gundabad since we're most of the way there and of course we still have a ways before we set off from uh from rivendell so we're gonna wait till the company sets off from rivendell before we go to iregan oh so yeah so bricktails was suggesting that this contraption on the porch here uh is a a a a machine involved in rope making oh yeah i see you'd have each of the three corners and it would sort of marry it together and the crank could be to twist and tighten that does explain why the cranks is going in a different direction right because you could spin it one way and then spin it the other way if you need to yep nope that's good call i think that that's that's certainly a better theory than anything i had so uh oh yeah i like that okay so i'm looking at the map because yeah this is where we want to go we want to go up to uh to uh lithe up here um and uh i think let's see where we can get from our uh the stable master over here we have us the horus or did we have to unlock it to see the horse i seem to recall seeing a phantom icon and then nothing oh wait do we not have a horse oh wait it's up here i'm going the wrong way all right go the wrong way first of all i should not go on foot um oh the stable and linda will be as quest locked oh dude yeah that's what i thought yeah i was afraid of that okay right yeah okay ryan yeah i see it's right up there yep yep yep he's in hiding okay right yeah no no horse fine we'll just ride then yeah i guess we're doing this the uh the hard way exactly back through the pass so i had a sort of a exploring lord of the rings uh session myself on on my family car trip because uh my husband wanted to listen to the andy zurkas performance of the hobbit sure the audiobook and at first i thought we were just going to enjoy it and stuff like that but he kept pausing it and going explain that tell me what that means what like yeah no this is why is this important is this a normal thing for dwarves what's the history behind this so i kind of had my my own little professor thing going on there i was talking myself horse on the way back yeah it's like this is good practice i guess exactly yeah i know that's fun yeah it's fun the whole why is iran so amazing there and i'm just like okay imagine this is the muppets or something like that the muppets are going on this big journey and they found their way to this big fancy hotel at halfway of their journey and there at the hotel desk welcoming to his hotel is dwayne the rock johnson it's exactly like that yeah um yeah i know it's been fun i just uh i was actually i was like just about to do something else before the startup class was like i had like a little bit of time before the start of class i was just about to like do this other thing on my task list when um i was interrupted by a text from upstairs i had to go upstairs uh because i was i was needed in order to answer the question about uh uh like the half elven and like uh you know like my son was doing math and he's like so hang on a second isn't arwen like a 10 18 l or 10 16 elf and or no 13 16 elf and uh like what you know so he was like doing a genetic uh analysis and i'm like yeah it doesn't really work that way so we talked about the half elven and the choice of the half elven and yeah two half hours or the half elves but yeah i got it paris exactly um more of a state of mind yeah exactly yeah well it's really i mean and at the end of the day it's kind of a you know i mean it's kind of a binary situation you know i mean like it's you can't actually be a half elf in one sense right i mean like you're either mortal or you're not i mean it's it's uh you know you know my son and i and my wife got to joking about this you know being like imagining somebody who is like you know um like aragorn's kin you know one of the descendants of numenor who's like well i'm uh i'm part elf but uh i'm only you know all right down to the river here now at this point um i'm part elf but i'm only you know like my my uh my right big toe is going to live forever but the rest of me is mortal you know like it's well that's what those hands the arrows are okay okay exactly that's what the hands in the barrel are okay so i guess we just go up the slope till we find the the road again yeah i got um i'm afraid that we kind of jumped down here didn't we yeah yeah back up there ideas on that one really not sure i thought i was following demae and then i was following caressa and then i was following greenstand and i'm sitting there going i don't know if i'm following them or they're following me really confused because we've got to get up there don't we uh oh great we're on a cliff and we can't get up great yeah we can follow this river to the north uh to the east yeah yeah oh i just kind of dismount but fortunately the bat took care of that for me oh yeah i need to change my title the easily lost too all right i'm going back to the river all right when in doubt go back to the river we'll zob to go back to the river and follow the river along until we get to um it's more of a bog though isn't it it is the bouncing guardian oh okay thank you chrisa right did you add uh saginaw uh so hollywood can join us please oh yep here's the one who's waiting for us at our destination very patiently i hope so uh hmm oh dear i seem to have wandered away from the crowd come to the north to the north heading now south but that's okay all right all right so this is hang on i think i found well i thought yes i found that bridge there's that dwarf bridge right but i can't get up there so we can go north from here we can get there from down here uh yeah yes yeah okay oh so we do we take this angle up towards the towards the northeast now is there is is this the right pass the right the right road to the right pass it will get us there yes okay okay nice to see a nice gentle slope headed up hill that's at least kind of promising okay oh yeah rosie last needs to be added as well yep got it great all right so my goal our goal for the evening clearly is to find a new milestone at the very least i'm going to milestone cliff celled on the way i sure don't want to do this again yeah running running running running i think that oh yeah the road i think we found the road oh yes man we're not even in markwood we're getting off the road it's the road hooray huzzah oh i'm going to bed hunters doing this thing all right oh stupid worsted i mean we're still in combat somewhere somebody is still in combat okay so this is the fork in the road right oh he found me hang on everybody left me behind oh dear are you are you lost hope he get me he get me he get me please okay all right let's see hang on a second let me cheat and look up at the elder slade and see okay so we're actually we're going to be pretty close to a stable master up there right all right okay so then i will not go to hit cell let's just go the straight path here right make it so let's take the right hand fork no it's the left-hand fork still yeah we're not going to the air we're not going to yeah we're still going up this way yeah okay i thought you meant your other right no no no i was thinking i was thinking because there are two forks in the road that's the one that goes off towards yeah uh towards the dwarf mountains here we go here we go the card ship was really interesting because it'd be little things like uh you know quick give me the entire history of numenor now it's just like okay summed up in a twitter version right yeah no that's uh that's an excellent way to pass a car trip yeah it was it was it was more fun than i thought it got to the point where i could actually catch the kids lowering their headphones and trying to listen in on some of it so yeah if you can get your kids interested you know okay i'm doing the uh milestone here just in case oh yeah yeah yeah just in case something disastrous happens and it will and but i want it to guarantee i'm not gonna have to ride all the way from wendell b again so there we go okay and wait a second i think it didn't take bind yes okay there we go all right we should be fine but just in case all right so this is where now we go all right we go back down and then around i saw i saw where the fork in the road was okay down here and that's this one oh yes fancy dressage horse thing right okay finally waiting we because otherwise i'm gonna get stuck behind dismounted and attacked by an orc again it'll be fun it's hard to be an administrator on horseback and combat even galdorf would have had trouble with that all right well i know if uh just as frodo is uh looking forward to getting up into the pine woods up on the hills i'm looking forward to get up and getting up into those dwarf ruins up in the hills but wait a second yes i see some kind of construction is that just oh giants that's what kind of construction it would appear to be yeah a giant who's this guy hair fragmod he's got an accent on the second half he calm okay what we want to do about this well um explore but here it's right let's just have a peek no actually we need the healer over here so be over there okay so we see the normal lotro giantish stone block constructions with leather flaps for doors man i'm getting flashbacks to the misty mountains here yeah kind of um we are in the misty mountains oh yeah i am right there misty mountains yeah misty mountains or got booted like a golf ball though these stones are different these stones are much more sharply cut than the ones in the in one shot he one shot me where are you corey oh i'm up next to the giants by the i'm up to mr stone giant rock breaker up here oh dang so they're much better stone cutters these giants unless they're repurposing stones but i don't think so because these stones are really big and the other ruins that we've seen have all used smaller bricks hmm uh have that this looks like the ones we saw in uh what was it uh ended with maybe but no i i just mean i tricks are better i just mean the local ruins like compared to the other ruins we've seen so like basically there are two options right either the either the giants cut these stones themselves or they are repurposing cut stones elsewhere and goodness knows with all the ruins around there's plenty of places where they could just get cut stones and haul them here and build with them right i guess we'd have to see how the doors cut what their stones look like for these right but the other ruins we've seen like the one just down the hill where we just bound that milestone in heart celled or whatever we're much smaller bricks than this so oh yes either these giants are cutting these stones themselves or they're deriving these from a completely different place you know can we different than we've seen look at their skin their skin is all cracked didn't we see that before in the like that that they seem to be moving more towards like hey these guys might be kind of like made of rock yeah yeah these definitely look more like the uh throwing rocks as footballs kind of giants yes but they look they they're humanoid still but they're did they am i remembering correctly that they changed the texture of the giants like way back in the troll fells and everything like all the original giants to make them look more like this i would have to i would have to see if she should have a little bit but not to this extreme right yeah i think a lot of them still wearing sort of uh you know stocking caps in lederhosen right and i i remember i remember seeing this kind of skin texture like that looking like rock itself um in nor zoom during the wildermore um quest line but um but yeah it seems to be what we're seeing here seems to be a representing a shift in how like lotion is choosing to represent the stone giants which is do you remember the giants uh on the gladden mirror yeah vaguely as that's what i was trying to recall they looked like this didn't they uh i think so yes i think they did think these are similar to those okay well we'll keep an eye out for bricks like that but i still think these guys are cutting their own bricks oops yeah so i've lost the perfect to the west okay yeah having left the path in order to explore and look more closely at giantish architecture that's never proven bad in any of tolkien's stories has it no no oh is this uh yeah it's the big okay that's cool all right so now we're coming up on an obviously dwarfish bridge up and and a there badger go you're getting it you're getting a badger just to add insult to injury there yeah i know it's like at that point it's just left juice on the paper cut just bad you're just savaging me ah all right so when we get up to this bridge notice what's immediately interesting about this bridge look at the arches yeah the sort of uh the plates line up oh yeah look at that no not in the middle but of course in its defense that one is hanging there but these plates line up so yeah the uh that joker dwarf engineer um the incompetent one yeah or the practical joker which i prefer to think of the joker yeah okay so we are drawing up near to those ruins so the first interesting thing that i see is how very similar whoa it's a good thing there was a railing there yeah i would have totally lost dwarves know how to build things with workplace safety in mind but this you haven't been the more here right now okay except for the goats the goats running that through maurya is just like that is the worst wild mouse ever okay all right so we um we made it up to the elder slate so that's exciting now let's get over to what is it called anach korfu over there which is i think our dwarf ruins right oh look there are drakes okay so we're still on i'm still thinking skava the wormish thoughts here yeah oh look at they're flying all over the place look at him landing in a puff of dust there kicked up by his wings interested in the one sweeping down on us oh yeah that one just swooped down a little bit a little bit ago fighting our horses oh dear oh i see you must have killed one i just uh started the dragon slayer deed yep weren't me okay oh i'm seemed to be going the wrong way however i missed the turn there was a turn off to a stablemaster yep is there a is there a milestone down there too yes this is the quest hub for the elder slade excellent although oh right it was a switch back up the hill no wonder i missed it oh them and their switchbacks okay all right i'm not eating oh wow this is very much like uh to the gold digging place the uh buried treasure map thing okay all right here we are here's the stable master at least mm-hmm there we go and this is a far-ranging staple master so you can get here from bree no matter your level also that's very convenient yeah this is uh the way this place works is this is the first time they use the mission technology which is accessible to anybody over level 20. oh yeah where's the milestone i don't know if they want to parent passport the stable master at least we'll do the trick yeah we got it since we can get here from brie it's good enough okay cool well we'll plan to do that next week then we will run here from brie and we will pick up here i'm not even going to tempt myself into looking at the ruins because it's super late um but um i will uh we will pick up here next time and um uh explore and see what we see here in these ruins um so cool awesome thank you guys so much we're gonna so we'll explore these dwarf ruins and then we'll get up around the corner we got worms worms worms graf up here which sounds very promising uh and then up towards the gates of gunda bad so uh then meanwhile we'll see oh and there's car bronch up here which is sir not appearing on this map that's pretty cool all right anyway very good thank you everybody for joining us we will be back next week for more exploration up here up here in the elder slade and i will see you guys next week thanks bye now bye

Channel: Signum University

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Id: hv-Wa31npbU

Length: 127min 5sec (7625 seconds)

Published: Tue Jul 27 2021