Episode 110: Is "Nice" a Virtue?

[Music] welcome to godsplaining contemplative preachers contemporary age each week join the dominican friars as they consider all things catholic hello and welcome back to godsplaining i am father gregory pine joined here by father jacob bertrand janzik father jacob bertrand you are in sunny and humid washington dc apart from the weather which is often a point of much discussion how are things fine thank you it is neither sunny nor terribly humid in dc which reminded me of a time when we were at some talk thing i think it was um oh what was it called when we go to i can't remember no not theology on tap it was like on capitol hill i said people's houses would go to christopher christopolous yeah we would go to this thing and one time if different people would come give a talk it was kind of like a young adult capitol hill thing and father gregory and i were when we were both first back at thousand studies we were kind of helping handle the group for the first for that one year and father gregory introduced one of our one of our brothers one of the friars of the province who was giving a talk on uh whatever it doesn't matter but like said everything and it was all wrong like wrong year that he ended the order wrong ordination date wrong call like everything was wrong so uh it was just hilarious it was really well uh yeah it was great and this friar was had to reintroduce himself and correct everything that father gregory said so um i don't know why it's so funny but it's funny to me nonetheless all these years later years and years later ah yes such time that has passed uh it was kind of funny to me too um although i felt somewhat what would one say put out by it i was like listen i i i make everything up i'm a horseshoes and hand grenades man i'm just surprised i got as close as i did to most of your specifics i knew yeah last name so yeah exactly he took great umbrage i was like well okay well we'll make it through um no he was he was gracious about it okay yeah so um here we go today's episode is going to be a deep psychological dive let's go uh many people about whether here or there whether hither or thither tend to think that being nice is a good thing maybe you've had some senior superlatives voted on in your high school class and you were hoping for you know most successful or best dressed but instead you got most nicest and this for you was an occasion of great horror because while many of us think that to be nice is good we also have the seeking suspicion that to be nice also means to be like a doormat to be spineless to be otherwise conflict-averse so we're of two minds when it comes to the virtue of niceness i myself am a kind of conflict diverse person or his father jacob bertrand i don't know if i would say that you are pro-conflict but i would say that you cringe less at the thought of it than i do um so we thought that it would be a fruitful dialogue given our different approaches to the matter to discuss what about niceness is in fact nice and what about niceness is in fact not nice so father jacob bertrand when people talk about nice what are they talking about can you set us up yes but first did you win any high school superlatives you're gonna actually be dumbfounded when i tell you this i was runner up for best dressed [Laughter] yeah yeah yeah i used to care about clothing um or at least dressing myself like a human being for for all of those who i mean father gregory wears a religious habit all the time now uh not i would say like most all the time and i've only known him since we've been in the order but when he is not in the habit and i see him my my thought is usually like dear god what okay um we're doing this uh it's not it's not the worst but it's it is not a superlative worthy it is superlative worthy just not for best dress but that's awesome bless your heart yeah how about you wow did you win any i think so you did yeah i did i won uh i won most likely to succeed um here i am succeeding and i won most sarcastic here i am succeeding sarcastically so winner winner oh my gosh that is a perfect lead-in then to the subject of this topic because niceness and sarcasm are often put at loggerheads but you're going to help this to find a way to be both yeah it's fine no no no no no i don't think you can you know i think we have to get rid of one and one that doesn't matter and the one that doesn't matter is being nice so we're gonna we're gonna talk about why that's a a sort of stupid nonsensical thing uh wow whoa i threw down yeah father gregory said we had different approaches to this so yeah here here it is different being nice is worthless uh that's my that's my two cents um at least being nice in the the sense that r that has been built up as a sort of secular virtue of like the ultimate kind of thing i think is is a load of hui i don't know i can't say anything i'm trying to think of a word that's not a curse word and that's a little stronger than that that's what i came up with so um so what is my problem with it my problem is that is this that often you know the secular world and and too a lot of a lot of times in ecclesial circles um you know you like whatever whatever whether it's like a parish program or like intersessions at the sunday mass or you know talk about being nice or kind as if these things constitute holiness or as if these things were kind of theological or even cardinal or moral virtues and and that like somehow we have to signal that we're good people by you know being nice and being kind and being inclusive in these ways not that inclusivity is in itself a bad thing but that these are the height of like civic and and moral duty and i they just simply they simply aren't when we're when they're used in this way um why aren't they well well i mean i've i'm not a i don't have the scriptures memorized i've read them and i've read them a few times er i could be wrong so please don't send me an email with like a proof text line from the scriptures because i won't reply uh but i don't seem to recall that you know the scriptures talk about you know blessed is he who is nice or that being crucified was a nice thing or that you know christ was being kind when he when he told people to go and sin no more i don't seem to find that anywhere in the context content of revelation in the way that uh you know our secular friends would like to kind of beat us over the head about being nice um now you might say well what about the golden rule what about matthew 7 12 do unto others as you would have them do to you okay fine um but that still doesn't you know being nice sure maybe i don't know i don't know if that counts um the real problem here that i see is that that being nice you know lotting this sort of nice reality lauding this sort of you have to be kind is that that we easily fall into into the categories of relativism and subjectivism and that what constitutes me being nice to one person might look very different for what another person thinks as being nice uh what you know what constitutes being nice might be super subjective and not actually correspond to the truth being nice might be like you know not holding to truth church teaching and the truth of our faith because it offends people well in the end i don't you know i'm not saying be offensive for offense of being offensive sake but that you know if that means that i can't be nice to everybody because i don't agree with the way by which the world has has understood the human person in the last 25 years well then so be it you know that's that's where my mind is on it i don't know father gregory if you have thoughts on what i said are your own thoughts but at least that's setting the scene uh laying it out for uh for everybody and i think if you've listened to more than four minutes of this episode you've you've probably realized that i'm not that nice all the time and maybe i'm just making excuses for my own behavior but at least there's the rationale that i'm justifying my own behavior with so there you have it so i think you know what we're what we're motivated by what we always ultimately want to cultivate is a life of virtue and so we want to be able to identify true virtues and grow in the in the ones that we identify and we'll devote the second half of the episode to just that but i think that the gospel is addressed to real human beings with real human needs with real human problems and if people esteem niceness for whatever reason uh i think it's because they see niceness as addressing some genuine human reality so maybe uh you know in anticipation of the break we could just talk a little bit about that see if we can mine what it is that motivates people to be nice and to want nice done unto them so i'm thinking about my own experience okay so i live in switzerland and i have some dealing with service employees in switzerland so i haven't yet been to a restaurant um because all of them have been closed for as long as i've been here although they opened up since i came back regardless i have been to a couple places like i went to get an eye exam at an optometrist because i had to get an eye exam in order to get an international driver's license and uh the internet in my house is sub-optimal so i got an internet plan at the phone store and i had to like renew my immigration whatever visa uh so i had to go to the people that whatever s p o m i stands for z um that place okay uh yeah exactly at each of these locales i dealt with service professionals and some of them uh were not nice to me and some of them were nice to me so like the woman for instance that the optometrist was just incredibly kind warm wonderful i was so pumped actually by that encounter it was short it was efficient i paid i left the guy at the phone store also a gem um shout out to brian if you're listening to this you are the man um the word sombra say is a little bit ambiguous in french it can mean either uh to hug or to kiss and i was so overjoyed by the fact of his resolving my problems that i that i told him that i wanted to hug him but based on his reaction i think that he thought that i meant the other sense of that word so um let's just say that i esteem niceness and a service professional because i feel like i am seen i feel like i am taken care of and i feel like i can face the day speaking a language in which i stink and you know whatever not have to eat pounds and pounds of chocolate just to make it to bedtime so that for me is that for me is not nothing so what is it there like what's at the heart of that what are we what are we describing when we describe those types of experience where niceness seems a great healing bomb or a boon or whatever yeah i i agree with you on all of that and i think that um and i think that there there is a real sort of virtue or we can identify virtues there um that are that fall in line with with with real virtues and real kind of real things that constitute and build up holiness or at least even we can like even civic virtue and which are which are not wasted virtues um and but i would i would identify uh what's like what's of value in that other than simply being nice um you know they're and we'll talk about one of the you know like a couple of these virtues as father gregory signaled in the second half particularly like affability the virtue of affability does that kind of sound like niceness in some ways it does but let's i think what what's at what's important for for me to get at and for us to get in this episode is that is that these the the these virtues are are are rooted in in true um substantial virtues that direct us to the good and direct us um objectively to that good and to the good end so what what worries me about a sort of um kind of foundationless or just a really subjective niceness is that it doesn't necessarily lead one to goodness truth beauty holiness happiness um it can be easily masked or easily mask a sort of lack of those things um and just be nice for being you know niceness for niceness is there's a lot of niceness for niceness's sake just to put on um you know a sort of a front uh a front that that you know might ease tensions in a situation but isn't ultimately where the the foundation of good christian living is is found another another like scripture example that comes to mind is is the um is the parable of the good samaritan you know when the samaritan helps and rescues the the uh or when the samaritan is rescued or no the samaritan does the rescuing wow confusing there goes all of my credibility with scripture you know there there is we could say like the samaritan is being is being nice perhaps i mean that would be categorized as a good thing you know he's being he's being kind he's being nice to this to this injured and dying man but is that really at root like the height of virtue of just being nice was he just being nice no of course not there was there was this great act of charity which is really which really constitutes his actions there so i think it's important for us to to recognize that yeah there are interpersonal um interpersonal skills that that conduce to like professionalism and being pleasant and and all that and i i'm all about all of that uh um i know and i guess just to sort of like sensationalize my dislike of the virtue of being nice i you know i you know i'm just i've i've been described as being extreme in my opinion so whatever i'm extreme in my opinions so um but again to reiterate what i'm saying it's like let's let's look at actually what constitutes um the virtues of inner human interaction and human relationship that redound to the truth and to our holiness and i don't think simply being nice lives up to that lives up to that bill one other element that i would want to throw into the mix is the recognition that many of us are fragile so this is often remarked of millennials and gen z that um we are constantly in need of affirmation we find it very very difficult to accept and to process criticism and so we're always on the brink of a kind of crisis and i think that in part two we value niceness because it buffers us from the difficulty of life and it helps us you know maybe we grow along the way but it it helps us to kind of take reality and bite-size portions and so this might be as we you know kind of lead in the second half to a description of the pertinent virtues it might be a way by which to situate that discussion because i think how you comport yourself will depend on the other human being and that's not to say like you're nice with people who you don't know but you really rough up those whom you do because roughing them up is the way best conducive to their growth in virtue no that's that's not it but if i were just to meet a person and i would say like hey um your breast smells real bad you should either brush or floss or wash you know like mouthwash or all the above or also see a doctor about it because it it smells like a nursing home just like died all of all of the residents of the nursing home died um right so that might not be the move the person might benefit from that but given his or her fragility given the fact that we just met that might not be the appropriate thing and so maybe there's some niceness that's called for there whereas if you know i've been friends with somebody for 10 years and that person has some seriously nagging things that need addressing and i myself am too quote unquote nice to actually confront them then we're dealing with something here that's that's disordered uh we're dealing with an actual lack of or kind of breakdown in the life of virtue so looking then towards virtue we'll speak about that in the second half stick with us and we'll catch you on the other side you are listening to godsplaining visit us at godsplaining.org to listen to our episodes shop our store and donate to our podcast all gifts go to improving the podcast and bringing the gospel to more listeners thanks for your support all right welcome back to godsplaining we are talking about the pseudo virtue of niceness spoilers it's not one um that's what pseudo signifies in that here introduction uh but what we are talking about are the pertinent virtues which help us to be you know generous kind loving of service to another uh these are the real things which can actually shape our affection shape our desires shape our actions such that they conduce to the glory of god the salvation of souls so father jacob bertrand if you want to kind of map up map out for us the lay of the land give us an insight into some of the virtues which contribute to our being this way yeah when you when you said lay of the land i was the first half of the this is holy tangential but i just want to say what i want to say so i'm trying to make a connection uh uh in the first half of the episode or off okay yeah i was thinking about it then and then often i think being from like new england and you know the northeast we sometimes have the reputation of just being a little more cold whereas like you know opposed to other parts midwest or like the south that are you know super friendly and kind of welcoming so i wonder if that if my like this sort of um subconscious reality just contributes to my to my sort of disdain of of niceness you know like going to the grocery store going on the street like i don't want to talk to anybody i just want to get what i want to get and go back home and i think that's nice like leave me alone whereas like if someone's like how you do where you but it's like don't don't ask me where i'm going that's none of your business don't ask me what i'm doing also none of your business and you're slowing me down like okay so that's that's also going on and i recognize that that's like cold and calloused and okay fine maybe the fault's with me probably not usually not but you know there it is so virtues that actually contribute to the to the upbuilding of holiness and the kingdom um and i think that that reality is it really situates our conversation um especially when we you know when we talk about our interactions with other people i've been avoiding using the word friendship because here we're not really talking about that like close intimate friendship of how that's built but like how do we interact and in like civic public discourse relationships going to like get coffee whatever um it's really important to remember that even those interactions that might not have the sort of deep lasting realities to them ought to build um work to up build our holiness ought to be opportunities to show forth um the reality of the christian life and witness to christ and build up the kingdom even in these passing interactions so what are the virtues that do that how are we how are we helped in acting in that way so so as to do that i think we should look at two virtues one theological one um one moral or cardinal and a few of their parts so the first would be charity and we'll i don't know maybe gloss over this a little more quickly um but there are two parts of of the virtue of charity to virtues to sub-virtues we could say of the virtue of charity that that fall that fall here and i think are worth attention in in um in our thoughts here the first one of those is mercy and i think that particularly with what father gregory was talking about at the end of the first half of the episode uh that that millennials can be in in other people too but particularly sensitive or uh need more affirmation perhaps than like past generations that's true i think that's true of of us and of our peers and of people just younger than us um why is mercy important rather than niceness why is mercy actually a virtue well mercy uh mercy is is really ultimately you know it's god's love for us in the face of our sin and we participate in being merciful in as much as we recognize i often compare mercy to tolerance which i also think is cheap and and kind of often abused and then results in being a stupid reality uh but tolerance becomes you know this kind of recognizing of where somebody is and simply accepting that whether that's without sort of a recognition of whether where they are is good or bad whereas mercy recognizes where somebody is but but loves them and calls them to the perfection to that to which they're called in appropriate and prudent ways you know like bad breath correcting as father gregory mentioned at first meeting probably isn't terribly merciful but more would be more hurtful but mercy calls those with whom we interact even in these passing interactions to some greatness it gives them the room to exercise who they are their humanity in ways that are that are that build up the kingdom and um yeah call them to to some to some real virtue some real holiness uh the other one here and i'll just list it and then father gregory chime in and you know say what you want to say and say that i'm wrong it's fine um is is the idea for eternal correction um fraternal correction is a virtue or a virtuous action that falls under the virtue of charity why do we correct somebody why do we lead somebody or why do we lead yeah correct somebody when there's a fault it's not because we're superior but because we love them because we want them to pursue holiness to pursue goodness to pursue truth so here sometimes you know with with the thought of mercy and fraternal correction as recognizing where someone is and who they are but also calling them to something greater it might require us not to be quite so nice in the in the sort of lauded secular sense because it's sometimes a painful or difficult conversation or interaction to have um but ultimately uh that that contributes to to the upbuilding of holiness and the kingdom so with thoughts of charity i think that that offers us a little bit more to think about than simply just being nice on my terms yeah when saint thomas talks about charity he describes a virtue he describes its interior dimensions and then he describes his exterior dimensions and you know he talks first about just you know what he calls beneficence good doing and then mercy alms deeds and then fraternal correction and when you think about it in one way it's like mercy is with respect to those who are poor and fraternal correction is with respect to those who are wrongdoers and the goal in both instances is to dignify the other person so in the case of mercy you lift them up right so you're moved or you're kind of struck to the core at the recognition of their miserable state and then you exercise some kind of power or some kind of authority and you relieve them of what it is that causes their miserable state and in case of fertile correction you see that there's you know a splinter in your brother's eye and cognizant of the beam in your own eye you do what you can to help him or her remove it right but in both cases the idea is that you're lifting someone up you're dignifying someone and i think that that gives us a good insight into what's really at the heart of niceness right we said the other person may be fragile the other person might be easily offended the other person might just be ill at ease the other person might just be anxious in his or her own skin and what real virtue does is it doesn't say like you're fine where you are like you describe tolerance real virtue dignifies the other person real virtue accompanies them on their march on their pilgrimage as it were to god which ultimately entails you know growth and virtue or growth and holiness for themselves um so yeah those those are both you know like really strong forms of kindness they're not just kind of weak you be you forms of kindness they're strong forms of kindness um so with that then maybe we could talk a little bit about justice you want to pick out some some pertinent features of justice yeah when when saint thomas talks about justice and the virtue of justice he he identifies three types of justice two i don't care about right now legal and distributive justice uh the third is commutative justice uh and the community of justice is the justice uh that often when you think about justice rendering another has do between two equals is is really uh what we're kind of after here what when we think about um so it's defined or we can think of it as this like constant and perpetual or this like yeah constant will of one person of me uh to render another person what is what is his do or her do in equity so what is another person owed and we can think of this in terms of um kind of like monetary or material things you know if i get in a car accident i have to pay back you know i have to make make amends for if the accident's my fault i don't have to i can't pay less than what the damage was and i shouldn't pay more either there's an equity there but we can also think of this in terms of relational qualities and and what is and just as father gregory was explaining recognizing the dignity of another person and lifting them up you know what does another person do in in his or her humanity uh in my relationship with them what do they do in my am i relating to them as as one human being to another human being whether they're a peer of mine whether they're a stranger whether they're a homeless or a per poor person whether they're you know some great public fit you know with respect to who they are as a man or a woman what do they do and uh what is their dignity and i think in that lies the the real ability to interact in a kind way or in a nice way that that where we look at people not as objects to be oh that's so good for you or pitied or uh kind of exalted beyond what they are but as human beings and if we begin to to interact in that kind of way uh we can we can actually again contribute to the building of holiness in the kingdom of god now i i'll list i think there are there are some sub-virtues or parts of the virtue of um of justice that our worth are looking at and i'll list them quickly and then we can both the two of us can talk about them and there are four as i think i just said um the first is gratitude and these all pertain to justice so gratitude affability equity and liberality again so gratitude affability equity and liberality uh i think these are really helpful in these in in situating our our good interactions with other people i don't know if you have thoughts about them or others to add to this we can we can explain them quickly too but there you have a little list rather than kindness and niceness uh we have these these virtues these sub-virtues of justice that help us interact better with with others yeah so when saint thomas goes through these sub-virtues he he groups some together which concern a kind of obedience due to a superior so there you'd have like religion or piety or obedience properly and then he groups together what what other authors have called these virtues of civility so the types of justice that need to be present in a polity and for instance you know that's kind of like the context that he's thinking of for it to go well and they're kind of hard to pin down because it's not clear how much gratitude you owe to another person it's not always clear how much affability you owe towards another person but there has to be something there in order for your social life to proceed well and happily and basically that's the ideas the goal in the in the polity is the cultivation of virtue right so the virtue of the citizenry and a kind of unity among them and those wheels are greased by these virtues which help you to live in close quarters with people who may be of different family different ethnicity different religious commitments etc with whom you might in an ordinary sense kind of find yourself at odds ends but are forced by the context to be of one mind and heart at least in some sense and these are the types of virtues which help you to accomplish that goal so like gratitude you know like you are you owe a kind of thanks to your to your benefactor affability you owe a kind of like kindness right or friendliness to all those whom you meet like the difference between having a a chipper bank teller in the morning and a dower bank teller in the morning can tell you know the next two hour can can kind of give indication of how the rest of your morning will will transpire or like liberality we owe a certain generosity like if if if you're in a group of friends and everyone is just kind of looking suspiciously at the other to see if someone will offer to pay you're in a you're in a strange setting at a certain point you know mindful of your income and mindful of what is actually possible for you we need to be poised you know to treat to ice cream we need to be poised to treat to parking even if it's a dollar fifty for the next things like that the types of things which bring us together so that we're not always looking out for ourselves getting ours and looking at other people as obstacles or competitors yeah often we think of justice too as this kind of like um you know very kind of cold calculating uh adjudication in our relationships of what is owed and what's not ordered and i'm only going to give what's owed but here we we can push back and say well well no because as as father gregory was pointing out st thomas has he talks about these forms of justice but then he also these sub virtues as we're talking about gratitude affability equity liberality these these call us to something beyond the letter of the law right they call us to be um to be like givers in our relationship with other people to be self-giving to in our relationships with other people so like to go back to gratitude for a moment um when a benefactor when someone gives us something we're given something without the expectation that something be returned when a gift is given you know a gift is given and that's kind of it it's not we're not paying for a service we're receiving a gift but even here um you know st thomas will point out well yes but you know even when we're given something with the without the expectation of a return we still ought to give something back we saw even if that's you know just a sense of gratitude of thankfulness because it allows relationships to flourish beyond just a mere equitable exchange of me you know exchanging money for this service or service for that money same thing with with um with with this idea of equity so here thomas is talking about this idea of going beyond just the the base letter of the law to give more than what's required from our material possessions our spiritual wealth like whatever it might be so as to to build um to build up one another in our humanity and in our pursuit of holiness and i think when we think about like charity and justice and mercy and fraternal correction and then there's this gratitude and affability and liberality and equity we can begin to see here that there's a real foundation for uh virtuous interactions that goes beyond just a sort of a smile not that a smile is bad we should smile at people we should but we should also recognize that like there's a reason that we treat people this way and it's not just because the world tells us we should do that or we're or you know we're bad people but really we should treat people well we should behave you know like like the the receptionist had great father gregory's dentist's office or the guy at the cell phone store we should behave in these kind of ways because we recognize the the dignity of the person because we recognize that god has the highest calling for them and that we are actually real contributors in their pursuit of those things even if they don't recognize it even in a passing moment um we can actually help them along in in their pursuit of christ and there's a real there's a real beauty to that um that's not founded on our subjectivism or relativization of what's nice and kind but on real virtue on real love on real justice on real unreal uh holiness boom so if the takeaway is no nice is not a virtue the reason for which isn't because we're down on being nice or kind the reason for which is you're called to something more you're called to something infinitely more real more thick more substantial you're called to be virtuous so with that i think we'll leave you at the at the takeaway there of be virtuous don't settle for being nice a special thanks to all of our patreon uh supporters we're very grateful for that which makes the podcast possible uh and if you uh have considered but haven't yet uh given a donation through patreon please please do consider or continue to consider or then do uh that we're very grateful for those uh who do and it's just all of those proceeds basically go to making the podcast better it just all gets turned back into the podcast to improve quality to improve reach and to help other people hear the good word that they might be led uh to the knowledge and love of god i just got a text message from somebody today who said my dad started listening to god's planning he recommended that i listen to it and i just got baptized and i was like let's go so that's awesome other things do check out increased offerings from guest planning and from live swimming we've mentioned those on other episodes and you can find them on the appropriate platforms and then uh yeah we we continue to proffer our prayers and celebrate masses for you so please do continue to pray for us and we'll look forward to chatting with you next time on god's planning thanks for listening to god's planning a work of the dominican friars of the province of saint joseph follow us on facebook twitter and instagram leave a review on your podcast app and visit us at godsplaining.org [Music]

Channel: Godsplaining Podcast

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Keywords: catholic, dominican friars, theology, philosophy, religion, faith, order of preachers, godsplaining, seekers, Truth, preaching, questions, searching, prayer, meditation, #nice, #virtue, #charity

Id: -qet-95ZQqE

Length: 34min 31sec (2071 seconds)

Published: Thu Sep 09 2021