So Paris Lees who's an activist and journalist that we heard together speak last week said this about your book "I've never been so excited about a book Thank God somebody finally wrote it blistering absolutely vital Writing from all the most exciting voices in British politics a stunning important debut. Fellow white people, It's our responsibility to read this book This book is an essential reading for anyone even remotely interested in living in a fairer kinder and more equal world I'm so excited to have you here to talk about this book. Thank you so much for doing this I'm genuinely so so so excited to be having this conversation so, thank you So since Our Shared Shelf chose your book "Why I'm No Longer Talking to White People about Race" as our Selection in January It has since become a best-seller Your debut book has won the 2018 Jhalak Prize, the British Book Award and the Bread and Roses award You've also started a podcast called About Race that continues the conversation You've clearly been like incredibly busy. It's been a very overwhelming year and a bit. Yes. Yeah Are you feeling- coping? Well, you know, I'd like- the book is full of things I wanted to say for such a long time though when it came to publication day in June 2017 I literally thought that's the end of a chapter. I was like well, that's that. Done. Finished. Yeah, exactly I'll just go back to my life but the world is like no So I just sort of spent the last year sort of like trying to Accept what was happening first and foremost and then being like, okay. Well, what can I do with this? And so it's been interesting the podcast is really fun to make I'm Excited about the conversations that the book is provoking and now I feel you know year or now I sort of step back and be like wow I'm actually I'm proud of what's happening And I'm like really happy to have like contributed a small part of of this like larger conversation That's amazing. Yeah, gotta- we've got to embrace that train left the station and you had to be on it. Yeah, absolutely The first you might ask like why? Where is this going? Yeah, I bet So coming back to your original blog post? one of the reasons you mentioned you stopped talking to white people about race was because so many people would get defensive and get defensive and dismissive and were not even slightly willing to see their own privilege To me your initial reaction had a powerful dose of rightful anger and also self-care in it I'm no longer putting up with this if you insist on twisting my message or continue to be in deep denial About historical or current context with regards to what's happening around race Then why should I engage because the consequence is for a person of color can be really negative Did I get that right? You've got a spot on? because you know when I wrote that original blog post back in it was February 2014 and however my life circumstances then I was for some reason sleeping on a mattress because my landlord had not organized a bed and like everything seemed bleak and I was also very much involved in activism at the time and Let me just say that I wrote that blog post not for want of trying that came from a good Few months of attempting to provoke a conversation about race and racism in my progressive activist circles And so that was that blog post was Like saying I can't do this anymore and here are the reasons why I don't really believe in ghosting, you know Like some people when a situation becomes unbearable, they just disappear. I can't do that I always have to sort of give an explanation as to why I'm I'm leaving this space and so that's what I did with that blog post and I suppose like the job of the override to it to try and like Grab to these like into what feels sometimes quite intangible emotions And I was really trying to articulate like what it felt to be. Sometimes it felt like locked in a battle of Me trying to say "racism exists" in these progressive circles and people in those progressive circles saying this is all in your head You're being divisive, etc. Etc. So, I I wrote that blog post. I didn't mention any names. I didn't talk about any particular situations I just said this is what it feels to be like this to be in this situation I can't do it anymore because it's really hurting my mental health I pressed publish, I expected nobody to read it Like I'd been writing on that website on on my blog since I was 19 years old And nobody really read anything that I had to say but when I click publish on this it just took on a life of its own and So many people from all around the world were saying Mood, you know, this is me This is nice truly resonate with this You know I mean and I My mind was blown. And also there was lots of white people who were reading it who would be like wow I did not realize that I had been like unwittingly taking part in this And and even now you know for work I travel a lot in different to different parts of the globe and I still meet people who are like Oh, yeah, I definitely remember reading that back in 2014. So, you know the power of the internet Largely a force for good and that particular circumstance not always but yeah, it just absolutely, you know, blew my mind Yeah, I I can't imagine it really Picked up some speed it had crazy momentum. Yeah so The book kind of feels like it was written as a guide and methodically making your case for people who deny the white supremacy and their own complicity in a racist system exists you kind of start with irrefutable facts the brutal history of racism as still as being a raised denied defended and Propped up and I had heard institutions of knowledge like Oxford and Cambridge You show how the structural racism is built into our systems and then just like continues to fester you show you how white privilege is insidiously it's kind of ever-present and You tackle so much. You kind of white fears white feminism and class divisions. You you covered so many different topics within within this area but is there anything else? Since you published the book since you've been part of these conversations that you wish you had written About or covered or later. Like I wish I'd find a paragraph about that I'm gonna say that that book was a real Encapsulation of a lot of my thoughts over the span of a good seven years and I don't think there's anything I didn't cover that I hadn't wasn't thinking then but now I'm really interested in how these things affect our mental health in particular Because I think that racism really negatively affects Your mental health of you are subject to it in a in a in a terrifying way and I think that that's something that we're not speaking openly about properly because you know Anti-racist movements are you know? built on this idea of strength and defiance and resistance and it can be scary sometimes to pop up and be like, you know What this is really chipping away at me. Yeah, and when I think about that initial blog post, I wrote it was speaking about the micro and the macro I was talking about a dynamics of society and I was talking specifically about how that was affecting me and my mental health in particular because There were times when I was involved in those activists sort of conversations that literally felt like an onslaught it felt like I couldn't You know open my technology or go to a gathering or a meeting without preparing for some kind of nightmarish Battle conversation about whether or not racism exists, you know, that was having a hugely detrimental Effect on my mental health for sure, but that wasn't something that I was thinking about while I was writing the book It's only now that I've had some distance that I can be like, you know, that is truly part of the conversation and I also you know now that I have the you know a Huge luck of meeting readers of all races. I have people come to me and Basically tell me that they thought they were literally going mad until they read the book or until they read that initial essay you know, I've had people at signings come to me and cry and say, you know, thank you for validating what I was thinking here, and I'm in an Exceedingly fortunate position to at least like my job It's now everybody knows what my opinions are like that's part of my job and I just like feel I'm cut out by people who are in circumstances where that's not the case, but they are still attempted to talk to white denial about race in friendship groups or workplaces and just being being made to feel like They were the crazy one, you know, they're insane Yeah, so I think that's something that that's a key part of the conversation But that's something that I've always come to the conclusion, you know, some months later. That's so interesting and like I Mean just thinking about all How many conversations you've had to have since the release of the book and even just writing in everything you've dealt with like what? Have you found any tools that you find? Help with the constants of stress of that What's given you what do you what you use that gives you kind of resilience to confidence tell you that I've been resilient Emma I think for the first few months like, you know I said at the beginning of this interview that let's be like and and that's because you know if you are writing or you know Engaging in some expression about anti racism or some injustice in the world If you come to public prominence For those ideas like I have see you. I've seen a little bit like a symbol and That's scary, you know, yep, that's true I'm sure you know, yeah, you know, yeah and you know people often talk about the hate that you can receive as as a symbol, but I would also say the reverence is Equally as scary absolutely because I started to be like looked at as somebody who would have answers and I was like I don't really know. I just know how Bad this is and I can use my skills as a journalist to attempt to expose that And as a writer to attempt to like speak to the emotions of it but I can't tell you how to live your life or how to move forward and like this prophet where it was like so Okay, great. You've written this not give us the answers exactly exactly and I suppose were like how I had to like over the last year how I've built resilience to deal with that is and To retreat from this fear somewhat and sort of like get in touch with who I am as a human being rather than a symbol of any particular like You know anti-racist discussion And that's yeah that's been a learning curve for me for sure and I never felt an obligation To do that, but I was certainly inundated with requests to do so, and I just said no to everything Basically because you know one thing that I always say about the book is that the book is like a collection of my very considered Considered thoughts and thinking and research and conclusions of the best part of a decade they're my really considered opinions based on fact but, not all of my opinions are considered not by any means, you know, and so I prefer to keep the ill-informed like opInions to myself, you know and I'll talk about that with my friends and family But it's amazing how I'm called upon to Speak on this or that and I'm like, honestly I don't believe it's imposterous to say I don't know about that and and that's something that I'm really like I'm latching on to this idea of I don't know Here's what I do know here's what I don't know and just because I know about this doesn't mean that I know about that and I'm not gonna pretend to For the sake of pomposity that's been a learning curve for me I don't think I do that at the beginning but I certainly felt pressured to and that's been amazing for like a sense of self and a sense of grounding and resilience to hopefully go off and Do some more thinking and writing about things Yeah, that's amazing till you say that and I I found the same thing where it's just like it's not even pomposity But it's just like there's just an expectation then you will speak to you and speak on Things you don't necessarily know about and actually it's really hard to to to say to say no or to not pick meet people's expectations or be as vocal as people would like you to be and you know, it's been that's been a huge part of my self-care and Survival as well. Yeah I call it pomposity because I do feel there are some people who they take that opportunity. Yeah, and you know One day you like. Well, I really enjoyed that considered things on this and then not you always see them and in the news And you're like wait a second. This is becoming a little divorce from reality, you know Yeah, it's it's it's a careful like lies sure walk and I'm sure that you've experienced it as well but I kind of decided that I wanted to say if I was going to say anything in the public it was going to be considered and thoughtful and That way I wouldn't dig myself into a hole. Yeah. Yeah. No a thousand. I can't relate more. Yeah amazing You want to feel like you've got something to say and you thought about it and like it? And active thing as opposed to it coming from this weird place done riding away. Yeah, totally The book has had a positive response from white people who seem willing to address the way that they benefit from white supremacy And I also loved it in the feminism question chapter and when he said that white women must question their whiteness, just like we questioned patriarchy I Was such an important line for me because I definitely had not allocated anywhere near as much time to that question as I had Allocated to questioning the patriarchy Familiar interviews regarding previous activism with white feminists I get that that hasn't always been the case that they haven't kind of Done that work as well. And so can you talk more about that? Yes I think it's quite interesting because like you're like piece that you wrote on our shared shelf to sort of intro the book to the book club was really interesting your self reflection on that and And then I thought oh, there's this conversation happening where it's like right? Well the conversation is over like Emma Watson has spoken like Like my feminism is over now That was a vibe I was scared for some people for sure for sure I'm gonna solve it overnight everyone. Well, I think that's because like you're considered a feminist leader So it's like people are like, okay. Well I said that so okay. We're cool with it now Like Like me feel but I don't feel what I feel like Reading a book is an intensely personal experience. So you're speaking for yourself. Yeah, I'm speaking for yourself in that. Yeah Well, I want to I want it through this like deeply personal painful like journey with it and You kind of have to go through that process of life had those difficult conversations I want to do loads of reading like that me getting to the point of writing that Was like it was a process like I you know, I it was one of those things I was like no no, hang on a minute. I've been talking about intersectionality. I've been talking about how when that word is but there's something about like Practical application of it and like a deep like personal experience Understanding of something and it's just different. It's a different connection for sure Definitely folks can take you some of the way and it's really important to like to do your own work like that and not expect Everyone else to do the labor of explaining things to you. But at the same time, it's those one-on-one moments I've had with people that really like really change something so Sure, and I think that like the book Prime's you to feel open to those conversations, right? So In the in the book the first chapter that I wrote was chapter 5 Which is a chapter about feminism really the first time that was the first chapter So interesting because it yeah as I was reading it that was the chapter I was like Oh, my this is really yeah, it took me not a year to write it took me such a long time months yeah, and that's because well it was kind of like difficult to recount some of the stuff that was Happened I had to speak about and is the only church of which I spoke at some length with my own personal experience of talking about Race and feminism and my own personal experience was pretty hairy to be honest like it wasn't and it wasn't a fun time and the story is that I started getting involved in feminist activism when I was like 19 years old. I was an English literature undergraduate I'd read the second sex by Simone de Beauvoir and I was like, I'm reading this stuff So I went on Google and I just searched You know UK feminism and I found this blog called the f-word. I think it's still going and they Aggregated like events and stuff. So I was like, I'm gonna go to some of these events I seem to be the only person in my immediate vicinity who? Is thinking like this so I'm gonna go to some of these events and I met some incredible people Some people, you know much older than me some people my age and it was an amazing supportive time And as the years went on and people started to like you know pay a little bit more attention to the conversation about feminism the movement broadened and There were more perspectives of which mine was one You know more diverse perspectives as people like to say and there were conversations about you know race and disability and sexuality that were also happening that like big like Poor feminist movement, you know And some of those weren't welcome. Let's just say some of them weren't welcome. So I found myself in Like this sort of deadlock because I was writing and blogging on the Internet at the same time anyway So I got invited to going to speak on a national radio program about Feminism in in that particular year and I was the only black person on the panel Everybody else is white. The issue of intersectionality comes up I'm asked just to discuss what it is, which is essentially, you know, the crisscross of like different discriminations could be Sexuality and disability, but the concept came from the legal scholar. Dr Kimberly Crenshaw and asked to describe this so I do and then like one of the White women on the panel said yes, this is all very important But I think we also need to talk about the fact that some people are using this concept to bully me online So then Mike goes to me so really do you want to talk about that bullying and it was just totally Devastating like I was 24 years old was at the beginning of my career the beginning of my life and My work in politics were somehow being equated with sort of bullying now Don't get me wrong that woman apologized soon after there was an online you know drama about it an ex conservative MP weighed in it said when he is the bully But all of that stuff was just hugely disheartening, right? Yeah and I think like scared me away from Feminism for a while because there was just a lot of like denial and and stuff going on and don't get me wrong I'm sure that woman had been harassed online from people from across the political spectrum, but There was a sort of strange situation happening afterwards where I was being implicated in that Yeah, and I a month later I wrote that blog post why I'm no longer talking to white people about race you know It was it was pretty devastating but there's a narrative out there about What it means to be a black and feminist and it's been equated with being an angry black woman And I'm going to try really hard to prove that narrative wrong and put forward a different perspective and contextualize it in terms of you know what it means to to live in this world as somebody isn't white when when we have like global superpowers that have Sometimes overtly and sometimes inadvertently like advance the idea that to be white is to be right And so that's what I really try to do with the book although but then I didn't know that it was going to end up Being the book. I was just quite like hell-bent on trying to provide a different narrative to the one that existed there Yeah, I think our educational systems really prop up that feeling and that sense of accomplishment, like certainly when I you know, I went through school and then went to University and I did my time at Oxford and like they you should have got given this certificate of like well done now you know everything you've like ticked all the boxes and you like you've you've gone and done what we've asked you to do and now you can go up into the world and like know things, you know, and that actually really sets people up for I think like Quite a so devastating come down and actually and not being in the most productive place You can be in life, which is to remain curious open and as you're talking about earlier be like this is what I know and Part of knowing what you know is also actually understanding of how little you know, because that's when that starts to really hit home I think certainly you know the beginning of my feminist journey It was like, oh I was told in school that this problem had been solved. I know that's not true And I think and the same thing for race and like reading your book was like, oh my god I was really taught in school that this was a problem that had been addressed and you know and then and then you sort of Realized it has not and I talked about this last week conference at the NoVo foundation conference, but just that this whole like This phrase that politicians have been coining which is like being a voice for the voiceless and how problematic that is because just that bouquet because because you know a set of Opinions or information isn't in the mainstream does not mean that people haven't been shouting about it and talking about it a lot Would that sort of question of Education? I think they're like One thing I saw realized very quickly when I was being involved in feminist activism It's a lot of the white women around me were saying well, this isn't an issue. Why are you bringing it up? This is divisive because they had gone through the same British education system that I had gone through that sort of said This isn't an issue. Yeah, and like I already knew it wasn't because anecdotally, like if you grew up not white in Britain people are going to be like just watch out for this and by the way, There was this back in the 80s knows that and just like it's almost like an informal like supplementary education And if you want either your family or like your social circle has never been affected by that then why are you gonna no I think there was another narrative that I really hold on to really tightly which was like You know in America they have this really big issue with race and actually in the UK Our issue is more to do with class or I can't even remember what I would you know what I would say but I like in my - of Compartmentalised it like that that was another narrative that I had come across and had kind of taken on as being the truth for sure and I think that there you know, I mean American politics and British politics are really different and Often more polarized so perhaps, you know plays a larger role within the media and within the international space but I think that we have Exactly the same problems. Absolutely. I mean it was the transatlantic slave trade, you know, it wasn't the u.s Slave trade and Britain played a huge role in that. Yeah I mean I really admire the work of people like David Olusoga who wrote black and British that came out a couple of years ago it's sad though, and I also poured on the work of a Like self-taught historian called Stephen Bourne. I pulled on his work a lot I'm really in the British Library when I was researching the book But I read this piece from a history teacher in the independent last year in which he said I've been asked to teach a whitewashed Curriculum here and I what I went through that education system we all did this history teacher basically said the only thing that's given me hope is that my people were literally Interjecting as I'm teaching being yeah, but what about this? What about that? And that's a really bad situation Yeah, you know, I think recently I mean for the last year like one of the most intense Feelings I've been having is just a real sense of betrayal my education because I was a really dedicated student And I like, you know, no one really kind of expected me to be taking my education. Seriously when I started working So young it was something I really fought really hard for and I poured so much of myself into it and Then to come through all of that and actually just be like there are these just gaping holes mm gaping holes in my understanding in my history and like the first moment of like understanding my like some of my cognitive dissonance was actually just even going to America and they're sitting in a history of the modern Middle East class and then just being taught part of this history about Churchill dropping bombs on certain parts of the Middle East and I literally literally looked around literally turned around to the back of the lecture room to see if anyone else was freaking out in the way that I was realizing that I was like, hang on This is just like there's just like this blank space that you know I just never knew anything about and I was like wow This is feel really this Enormous sense of betrayal should be with so much is such a bigger part of the education that we receive for sure to treat each Other well, it's controlled very elective at the moment, you know Like you have to become an adult or perhaps go to University and then take a literal elective module or become and be interested in these things and then go and buy the books If you're lucky you'll find in a bookshop Otherwise, you're gonna have to something like obscure library But you know when I was in secondary school and learning about the two world wars there was this word that came up a lot jingoistic which is like this excessive uncritical patriotism and That's what that word comes up in my head a lot When when I think about how Britain is like reckoning with its history, which is often a kind of like really defensive Uncritical denial and that's that's worrying to me. Let's let's just say that for sure yeah, it is incredibly worrying and I think yeah, as we talked about before it's it's I think it's going through those institutions and being given this false sense of You know that like stamp of like, okay into the world, you know and actually that not being the case and then People don't arrive at things with an openness and a sense of curiosity they arrive with it's incredible sense of defensiveness Kind of like what do you mean like, you know? this is and then people even go so far as extreme as being like this is bullying and she's Really starting to see it must have been if you kind of went to these feminists the f-word meetings and groups to kind of Feel like oh these these are my people they're seeing things the way that I see like this is my community This is my tribe and then to actually realize that You know to be spoken to you by that. Oh like that must been incredibly like painful. Yeah I already feel very isolated and then to feel isolated from the group. That's meant to not make you feel that way When I was at uni, I was the only feminist on campus to say that like it was isolating I remember working on the Student Paper and Talking about feminism to the overwhelmingly like male student paper staff, you know you're voluntarily everyone's doing it because they like to write and I always used to get laughed at and then I remember once going into the office and somebody had stuck up like images of page three girls and stuff And so that was that was upsetting Then you sort of like go into this situation where you're like, okay people get it people get it Yeah, and don't get me wrong, I think IRL like amongst like actual people in real life like These environments were so amazing and supportive and incredible And I also found myself involved in an activist group. That was called black feminists which was about I would say like it now would say like feminists of color to essentially discuss like issues to do with race and gender and feminism But I would say that the the biggest Divisions I saw were mostly online not offline offline It would happen in situations where like there would be a large family's gathering and it split off into groups and you know I discussed this in the book somebody on the black feminist sign actually wrote why like why is there a need for this? you know, so be like super passive-aggressive but online it would be much more Aggressive and angry juicing, you know confronting each other here there and everywhere and I definitely felt alone but I had an activist group full of women of color feminists to retreat to and to me and That really got me through that period for sure for sure You know there's some people so why can't we all be humanists and fate of the human race rather than Feminists and it's like well because there are specific things that happen to people Because they are women because society even views their behavior as feminine there's a literally structural power attempted to Marginalize the feminine out of society back into the home back into the kitchen and like there are also specific Things that a power structure literally sets up to marginalize those who are not white, you know That's why we need something. It's a no idea how to keep I know I know here we are in 2018 yeah, like feminism is needed as a word because it addresses that there is a problem and in order to solve a problem it has To be visible and without the word feminism the problem becomes invisible again There's nothing you can do and the same same with race It's just annoying ones like when feminists can see one argument, but not the other Yeah, and then you just like wow, this is a real Thing I say that the power dynamic is very sick, it's very similar if not absolutely interlinked. Yeah. Yeah Audrey Lorde the failure of academic feminists to recognize Difference as a crucial strength is a failure to reach beyond the first patriarchal lesson in our world Divide and conquer must become define and empower That quote just blew my brain open because I think I did have that anxiousness around like oh my god Well, if we're all gonna be in these tiny factions and if everyone's gonna define it put a word in front of feminism how we're gonna come together and solve the problem like Unity, we need to all be to get you know, like, you know My brain went went off on that track and then I read that quote and I was like wow Actually, that's not where the strength lies at all it's by understanding our differences understanding is like subtlety and specificity of all of those differences It's gonna make us really strong for sure. I loved it for sure. Yeah Babe, I'm gonna do another would you and end the feminism chapter with a quote Your silence will not protect you who wins when we don't speak not us Do you have a guideline for when you decide to engage or when to walk away? Okay some access a lot and what I usually say to readers is if somebody is obviously being trolling or Playing devil's advocate which my first he don't believe me because I think the devil is fine Doesn't need help I need advocates. He's cool is like if you sort of get that vibe from somebody then just feel free to step away and There's a kind of baiting that happens, you know. Yeah baiting Which I feel that you can just be like, you know, what? No. Thank you Yeah, but when it comes to like actually engaging so I understand it can be incredibly hard like I literally had to write a book of like 80,000 odd words in order to try and get across what I was trying to say in like face book paragraphs and like Conversations at parties, you know and things like that So I would always say if you want to engage there are ways to do it They don't involved a literal face-to-face conversation with somebody who is like committed to denial and literally does not see the inequality in the situation and that's why I like films are amazing and books are amazing and culture is amazing and Sometimes people sort say to me. Oh, well, how could you've like written this book saying? You're not what I talk to white people yeah, here you are and I'm like, well, that's part the process of writing a book you have to actually go out into the world and discuss it with people and and I'm making such a small fine a great point. I think I'd like if I had a pound But every time I've heard that, you know, I'd have a pile of coins on my desk I wouldn't be a millionaire by how I say like, maybe 50 coins. Yeah anyway, so for me a way to engage in a productive way was to channel my my anger and my research and my and my rage and all of my thoughts about into an expressive endeavor Yeah, and that's what I always say to read it in particular who are like I don't know how to do what this this is so difficult is Channel it into something expressive and productive whatever that might be for you and Sometimes particularly when it's a friend. I say you may need to get new friends which is a sad thing to say, but One of the reasons I loved the histories chapter of your book so much Is that A) there is so much to know I didn't learn in school which we really talked about and B) it feels like one of the first steps to effectively fighting racism is to just own that history and Acknowledged our complicity in it and I'll structurally raised a society as a nation. Britain has to confront this history do you see signs of us moving in that direction at all of this being taught in schools might have you like any glimpses of hope? I checked there's two petitions on the petitions dot com dot uk' website both are no longer live because they happened in the last Government, so I used to say oh, yeah, there's a petition I will sign it but it's not live. So that's distressing. I Think that like a situation that's emblematic of we are caught where Britain is with this conversation Is as it is something that happened to the University of Cambridge student unions women's officer at the end of last year Her name was Lola olafemi black girl from North London found herself studying at Cambridge. That's where in itself and She was I think she was one of the people involved in writing a letter to the university saying hey for this particular course Let's decolonize the curriculum and consider in engaging in slide the perspectives of non white authors Particularly, you know those who have Diverse perspectives this include she didn't say censure. So she said let's include and the nightmare that she endured mostly from the British press the Telegraph put her a picture of her on the front page Somebody who's just graduated about to start her life in the world and trying to find a job exactly Saying that she was forced in Cambridge to get rid of white authors And she then endured a torrent of abuse Because you know from strange people in the world who saw that headline and it was a whole hoo-hah About a letter that she that she'd signed and I think that's a really good. I Mean, it's horrendous what happened to Lola and personally, I think she should sue the Telegraph So I think it's a good example of where Britain is with this conversation, which is when somebody tentatively says hey Let's think about you know being a little bit more curious in this institution of higher education They are absolutely slammed and socially punished and I think that that's that's where I don't know if we've developed past that at the moment And that's really scary to me because this is higher education where students, you know, particularly with the government's higher education agenda since 2010 It's all have been about like students with choice, you know having choice until you know more do what they want to learn But when it comes to race that's horribly slammed down, you know, and that's really that's really scary to me So and I mean imagine if a politician stood up and said let's teach colonialism in schools Yeah, I mean, uh, there might be riots, you know, and that's really terrifying to me. Yeah. Yeah a cultural Amnesia is happening at the moment, which is that like what what happened with colonialism is something it's now something that's off a debate So that's one of my where we are in Britain. We're going to debate it. Was it good? Was it bad? I think that like last year there was this whole thing going on in like Academia Twitter where people were annoyed because there were some arguments being put forward actually Colonialism was good and it's like yeah and the country tried to move forward from that and it's like But at the moment we're like in this weird like debate place where it's like we're trying to debate whether or not this was good Or bad and it's not nuanced and it's not healthy. And it's I'm sorry. It feels really discounted to me. It feels really like Yeah, there's like this this lack of connection do the tangibility the realness of it as a thing if it's being kind of Debated in this really like distant academic way. Absolutely then it there's none of actually emotional connection to it is gone and it This understanding to understand our country. We need to understand at home Exactly are as a nation, you know. Yeah, the director of the Institute of race relations. His name is Ambalavaner Sivanandan Who think I'm that's not right a quote. He said we are here meaning people of color in Britain because you were there Yeah and I think that's the perfect like encapsulation of why we need to have an understanding of What colonialism has meant for Britain because we still got people walking around and Britain being like oh Well, if you're brown you are not British could be a black and you are not British. That's just so not true. Yeah Yeah a hundred percent You've said previously that being the work of trans writers online and it helped you to understand more about trans rights How is learning about the gender spectrum helps? You helped your work talking about racism for sure I mean I think that one of the things that Reading the work of trans writers and trans people who are involved in activism has really taught me It's the question the gender binary in the first place. It's actually like wild to meet her on to understand Wow, like I Sometimes feel like couldn't relate to somebody unless I knew their gender. Yeah, you know I've recently um inherited a pet and I did know the pets gender and I was like well she he I don't know and that's ridiculous a Fluffy animal like it's not it's not actually necessary to like relate to the animal, right? so, um, but another thing that I sort of really taught me is how you know, I'm not somebody who's ever been particularly vocal in the conversation about trans rights. I've just been like a passive supporter I'm like, yeah, cool I support you. Yeah, but I realized that like I'm literally being a Well-meaning white liberal in this situation, which is like well, it's not really my neck on the line. I support them That's it. You know like I can look at you in a passivity because it's not my neck on the line and I Won. I did an in conversation with the author Chimamanda Ngozi, Adichie And she said when she was, you know had a feet held to the fire I was something she said about trans people she said I understood was like to be the white person in a situation and I think that like that's what we Reading trans work has taught me as well. Always like I understand what it's like to be a white liberal in a situation Where you like? Yeah, like I support this and you know, I want everyone to do well But I'm gonna do anything and that's me something. I've been truly assessing since the books come out and since I've been given an icon national voice is like I Need to now mind up colors for the mass I need to like be public about Condemning the disgusting transphobia that's been happening in the British press. Yeah, because Just passively saying, you know, I kind of support this and then just not not doing anything. It's just not good enough I was so sad to hear what happened our pride march and a couple weeks going. I mean, you're really sad It was horrendous. It was despicable. It was despicable. Yeah not okay, okay so your your book was really eye-opening for many white women and Do you feel that it comes across as irritating or? presumptuous to hear well-meaning white women speak on the topic of racism Even if they're genuinely trying to wake up from the dream as described by tea nestea Coates Can you be a credible advocate when you can't actually know firsthand what it feels like to experience? Racism and more specifically when you still benefit from the privilege of your whiteness Because I think certainly at the beginning for me some of it was around Like I just don't know well enough to talk on this some of it was was also just around my like genuine Ignorance, but like bit. I'm curious like how do you feel about How do you feel about that? Well, I kind of for me, you know I talked about whiteness of the capital W as a political ideology and I thought the book is literally attempting to point to that political Ideology much in the way the feminists understand poetry are key to be a political ideology, right? so and I think that this is an ideology that we can say I Don't agree with that. I opted out of it and I think that anyone of any race can opt out of it That's truly what I believe because it's totally reductive to be like well why people think like this and black people thing like that? There's plenty of black people who are literally like paid-up members of that ideology, you know And similarly there are white anti-racist who are literally dismissing themselves from it all the time so well, I think when it comes to white people, who are Interested in anti racism and want to be advocates. I'm like Fine, but don't go to people actually dealing with it like talk to other white people about it. That will be a great thing to do You're speaking to exactly I suppose to and why you're trying to make that change so Somebody coming to me who's like read the book and his wine is like wow, it was revelation It was this of that I'm like, that's cool. But actually no I wrote Yeah, we're actually like we'll have an impact and explaining somebody's like Experienced to picture the choir exactly someone it isn't part of the choir exactly. Okay So a few questions from MSS members, there was really really really good ones What is the one thing that you want people to stop asking you about when it comes to race? I think it's gonna have to be the question. Well, what can I do? Because there's a reason why I am a writer and not a politician or cult leader Yeah and the reason is that I wanted to like be able to express and Call attention to and and name things that weren't being named and I feel at this point I've probably done a good job of that But I certainly don't want to be like prescriptive about what people should be doing about it and I think something that sort of like scares me about how the book is moving around the world is how how Sometimes my readers are really ready to Hand over their agency to me And be like I'm so I find this so awful and terrible so really what should I do about it? And I'm like, no. No, that's not what I wanted to happen at all. I wanted you to feel empowered to be like Ryan I'm gonna actually tackle this and make some change. I need to examine, how can I go about doing that? That worries me it's a hard one because I often find that actually I find it quite debilitating realizing I feel like oh what other people know a lot more than I I know so I should just Defer to them all like I don't and and it can be and it can be that way. But I guess it's like I Love that that phrase like forget your perfect offering like you don't have like somebody that I was I was actually at a trans training last week and speaking to member from that community and and I was just really heartened to hear her say like Yeah, I just forget your perfect offering, you know, you don't have to do it perfectly like people do notice care about your intentions and as long as you're like open and willing to learn and receive feedback and Do your own work then? Don't not get involved not say anything because you're you're so concerned that you have to do it perfectly for sure Comment because I cannot cosign or like approve Okay That's the right thing to do And you are doing that perfectly and I have that's really weird and dangerous for me to do that Like I just want people to feel equipped and empowered. Yeah, that's what I want Yeah, and I'm not saying that all my readers and and not feeling empowered I think that I've heard some Incredible and amazing stories from readers who have told me what they've been doing after reading the book, you know putting up displays of like authors of color in you know primary schools or One books talks a little boy. He must be like a teenager So he wasn't that little he must've been about 14 or 15 white boy he came up to me and he was like So I read your book and I really loved maths and so I realized in my school I go to a very multicultural school The like higher the math set was the white of the group was and that was really disturbing to me So I sat down and I did the calculations and I worked out what was happening here And then I presented it to an assembly and I was like, this is incredible. This is amazing You know people ask me the same thing about um gender equality like what can I do? I'm like, well, just and honest I needed to take my own advice like the space you work in the spaces that you are in like working with times often like trying to Structurally change some of the problems within my own place of work But I agree with you it's like being creative about your own specific context and how you can bring your Understanding into what you're really doing for sure. And neither you are I can know you can't assess Somebody comes up to us. We don't know we can't be like well What's your job? Nobody work? Who's your hangout? Where where do you eat? Like yeah, so every person is the expert in you know, their spheres of influence We're trying a couple questions from the MSS Instagram So my mom is a junior school librarian can really suggest any books around topics of feminism race and intersectionality for younger readers For sure. I mean, I think they're like first of all Like think about those as themes rather than topics For young readers because those things crop up a lot in books for younger readers often from authors of color So I brought one of my favorites which is a Naughts and Crosses by Malorie Blackman, which he loved. Yes Obsessed with I haven't read it since I was a child, but I literally like this which is essentially like a dystopian like Future where the racial power dynamic is flipped. Is Incredible and I believe it's set in Britain and Malorie Blackman like black British children's author so talented and there's a bit in this book that resonated me when I read as a child and it's the Description of Callum who is the white character? Who's a lower-class? He can't see himself and he puts a plaster on and he notices that the pastor is far deeper than the color of his skin and that's it's sort of users like emblematic as As to like what the norm is in that? Society and that really set my head spinning as a child to think about the plasters I had in my bathroom cabinet and how they certainly weren't my skin colour So yeah And there's also something really beautiful about the metaphor of like even the wound that you try to heal even like what you tried To put on to heal the wound isn't the right Medicine or color or whatever else and it's really deep In your book you discuss how the conviction of Steven Lawrence's killers was a missed opportunity to have a public conversation of racism And it's lingering existence institutionally and structurally Do you feel like constructive conversations on race have been able to happen in response to current recent events specifically the world wedding? So I think that the royal wedding was really interesting. I personally took a vow of silence Around the royal wedding because I was being asked constantly Hey come and be a pundit and but one thing that I thought to myself was These conversations about race were happening I often saw some of my like activist friends on the TV discussing it and I thought these people are amazing Talk about converts in general like why they're only being hauled out to discuss race. Yeah, one of the things I saw said was the way that the British media wanted to discuss it was almost like it was a obama moment and But the truth is that like two people met and they fell in love and I'm happy for them because the love is great. Yes But no I'm was elected here And so I thought it was a bit of a red herring to discuss it nationally as though you know Britain had elected Meghan Markel all what happened was that she fell in love with Prince Harry and I'm happy for them Yeah, I'd like and watched it like everyone else and I say ah weddings are nice like But it wasn't It wasn't a like reflection of what society has elected it almost looked a little bit like a balm After Brexit and all of those things, you know, because then people like you They say my prayers my cultural society and I'm like that's that's not actually what's happening here, and I'm happy for them So yeah, I sometimes worry that you know the people who commissioned these sort of discussions are a little or la-la-land when it comes to these things and and the truth is that There's still wheel injustice happening. So maybe put the mic there. Yeah, not saying don't cover the wedding it's nice, but like let's not do this proportionately say that this is a balm for Okay, I'd like to end by just thanking you For talking to me answer all these questions Last question and if you could pick a book for our shelf readers, what would it be? Okay. I also bought this book This is my it's one of my favorite fiction books. This is for you actually cuz I've already got a copy I've ruined mine This Augustown by Kei Miller one of my favorite fiction books I've read probably in the last decade It's San Jamaica and Kei Miller a Jamaican writer, although he taught in the UK and Manchester for some time, and it's a rich gorgeously written story about About life In this particular area August town and race and gender and religion and structures of power in the concept of the term Babylon, which essentially I guess means like white structural power It's an amazing book and thing you absolutely need to read it. Okay, amazing and I using amazing I'm, just sitting on my hands waiting for kinds of why another work of fiction it's really nice, especially to have a piece of fiction to Balance your non-fiction contribution. So this is really exciting. Thank you Definitely. Choose it for the okay Okay, I'm need to speedily read this. Excellent. So nice talking to you likewise Emma and thank you signal basing my
