Emma Watson Interviews Author Rebecca Solnit

[Music] this is a dream come true for me this is genuinely I love this part of the world and to get to interview you in my favorite part of the world is kind of about as good as it gets so thank you so much for agreeing to do this you are one of the most intelligent and prolific women I know and have had the pleasure to meet you've written 20 books on feminism well I've written 24 25 books but many of them are not about feminism yes all of them are secretly feminist and some of them are over I would say if that makes sense yes what drives you to write so prolifically I successfully avoided husbands and children in day jobs and how things can all really interfere with your productivity I'm pacing and I and I'm always fascinated by I find if I have anything to write I procrastinate magnificently do you have a rigorous writing schedule whereby you write between this hour in this hour and you meet this very specific thing and is there a routine that kind of helps you get so much done I get up every morning and have tea with milk on an octagonal tray I bought it at the thrift store many years ago and like that has to happen fairly early and then the rest of it is kind of a muddle and a blur and I often feel like the most distracted disorganized person ever but books do is you forth regularly which makes me think like if I'm this disorganized what's everybody else doing so but you know I really wanted to be a writer I loved books and writing was like one way even more than reading to be with books in books about books and so when I learned how to read I just decided I was going to write books and which is a very easy decision and told you actually have to do it but somehow one thing led to another I knew by oh you cite the Europe Roddick of the California public school system from kindergarten to graduate school how did that shape you why did you want to mention it and very funny I was on the panel with two men just up the road in Monterey about ten years ago and they both named Rob that dropped their Ivy League universities and it's like you're older than me we don't drop name drop our University out here and then I was like that's what an Ivy League education is for yes I was like well it if they're gonna name drop you know the Ivy League's I'm going to name drop public education in California that's so sometimes worried that somebody will say like well we should defund that because it produced her but you know but I just realize like we have you know we got a name drop these things that's amazing I love that you did that so incredibly specifically was there one specific moment or a series of moments that led up to you knowing that you wanted to be a writer I wanted to be a ballerina and then I learned how to write how to read which apparently happened very rapidly in first grade my mom says the first week and then I thought I wanted to be a librarian because they start with books all day what could be lovelier than that until I realized that somebody wrote all those books and books for me they're like you know it's like a magic box until you until you can read them you can open it but you can't actually see what's inside or do anything with what's inside so just that act of learning how to read lead pretty quickly to my third and final career decision which I stuck with it's very easy to decide to do something actually do it as a whole other thing and it must have been like that with you deciding to be an actress and then you had to act oh yeah well I yes it certainly did I mean I it kind of came out of nowhere to be honest it was it was actually poems and poetry that really got me and I was also on the debating team because I was really nerdy like that that was sort of what got me into it but I this feels like a just it must be a calling for you I mean you you've truly truly dedicated your life to to doing this I love that sometimes they email you and I get the and out of office kind of in order to get anything done I cannot respond to to emails and I just love that you kind of create that yeah you create quietly nice space listen to those things and the less nice people continue to chase you around thank you as you know as you know yeah it's but it's a really interesting thing that nobody calls you up nobody emails you desperately urgently urging you to do the work most central to your life and your vision and yourself everybody wants you to do something other than that and a lot of some of its noble causes and some of its favors for deserving friends and some of it you know and I believe in service and support of the community but you know it if I couldn't possibly do everything I'm asked to do and if I did half of it I would never write another book so there's this enough that interesting thing I think if I had been popular as a young woman I would have had a much easier time with people wanting things from me but you know I was like hiding in in libraries and reading a book a day so I loved that the work most central to your vision that's not a beautiful way of putting it which makes sense because you're a beautiful writer say that makes sense in whose story is this old complex and new chapters you talk so brilliantly about how power determines who gets to tell their story and who gets to be believed other stories or people that you really wish we were hearing more of right now beyond those that you cite in your book I think everybody in this room everybody listening this recognizes that women people of color non-straight non cisgender people have not been sufficiently allowed to take center stage to tell the story to determine what matters to set the priorities and that's changing in some ways but something I always feel and I write about an introduction to this book before we get all like they were they or disaster but now we're awesome and we're so we're so damn woke is I feel like in next year next decade next century will be like oh my god those people in the year 2019 so completely missed this and now we see now we include this thing we excluded so I feel there are things we don't see it and we always have to recognize how finite our vision is and how much more is out there and you know there are other things coming along and we have to be grateful to the people who woke us up and who taught us to see these other things as I've been taught so much by indigenous activists black lives matter feminism and you know a life blessedly spent among the gay men of San Francisco and do you know etc and then drag queens have there been moments are there things that you've written that you look back on and you that you feel gosh I you know I was I had a blind spot here and I or you know are there things that you would you feel you wish that retro actively or in retrospect you could go back and add more context to inodes interesting because there are a bunch of things and including my first book which was about the visual artists were part of beat culture where I feel like I kind of surfed a specific layer of the culture and you go deeper you know I didn't have the equipment to go after the massive misogyny of that era although some of it as I was talking to people of that generation was being targeted at me then memoir I have coming out that's in your lap you know takes care of the beeps very thoroughly as people will presently see revisited yeah so I feel like there were things I understood better and that were clear you know and I don't feel like any of those things is a misrepresentation but it often feels like I both have space to say things I might not have earlier and that it's really kind of when you tell a story you decide which layer you're going and that I've been spending a lot of time the last decade on the feminist layers the gender politics and things which I was gentler about in some of those earlier books interesting though 20 books that are part of this anthology is there is there one particular one that stands out to you as the one that you're the most proud of or that you feel if you know impossible it's like choosing children--all I am I know I know I think it's really I think they did different things like my book hope in the dark I wrote in the Bleak era after the bombing in Iraq started and it was written to encourage people award a writer friend of mine reminding me doesn't mean to you know pet people on the head it means literally to instill courage and you know and it played a role in people's own political lives that was really important to me my book a field guide to getting lost is a much more introspective personal book that has also been meaningful to people and a lot of artists have made art in response to it and stuff so there's that then you know I love the suave men explain things has cut through the universe and you know and right now the book I'm writing after the memoir comes out that I'm working on now that'll be out probably and possibly in 2021 maybe in 2022 I'm just like madly in love with but they all have a function and they all represented something like all of them are something I really wanted to say and I really wanted people to think about so there's a there's a couple that I think didn't turn out great but there's a lot you know I strongly disagree but I chose whose story is this all convicts new chapters as the book for my book club I shed shelf along with your take on Cinderella the bit that I loved so much well you mean you talk about this across your work really you quote George Orwell in the prevention of literature where he writes totalitarianism demands in fact the continuous alteration of the past and in the long run probably demands a disbelief in the very existence of truth it seems that we've crossed over into this truthless world that all well foretold do you see a way back I don't know where we go from here but I have to say that oral sentence could have described impeachment hearings this morning for those of you who are listening to them there was actually a moment where one of those Republicans and there's there's a great old saying like if the facts are on your side argue the facts if the laws on your side argue the law and if the facts in the law aren't on your side pound the table with the shoe and this Republican said indignantly are you saying the president is lying which is kind of like saying are you saying water is wet it's generally is and you know when it was really interesting seeing how they're able to use the conventionalities where you can't say he's the biggest goddamn liar you know ever to so but it's interesting that they've basically that their defense of Trump is based on the ability to make inconvenient facts go away and to write any story they want and to really kind of divorce themselves from the you know Enlightenment project of kind of science in fact in evidence based reality I feel like it's a huge struggle I don't I don't prophesy much I don't know where we go from here but I feel as a writer who has trained as a journalist but that you know as a storyteller constantly adhering to the accuracy and precision and factuality as values is really important and also something that all of us do in our lives do we share a story that we haven't verified do you know do we repeat unsubstantiated stuff do we check stuff out do we know you know beyond the kind of soundbite who the candidates are we're supposed to vote for and there's there's a quality of thoughtfulness I don't know where we go from here my happiest times I think that social media and you know personal devices smart phones are to our generation are to our era what crack was to the 1980s something where the next that totally caught up a generation that had no kind of preparation for it no immunities and that a later generation will be like you know doesn't you know I don't want to go there I don't need to do this there's some other way to be there's some you know some things I'm not going to let go of but the fact that Silicon Valley cuz like you look at these terrible things happening around the world I why are the rainforests burning in Brazil because bolson arrow is president why is Paulson arrow president well YouTube did a huge amount to prevent you know aid his rise to power what is the role of Facebook in the Rwanda and the genocide there were anger genocide in Burma what is theirs you know YouTube is now playing Hindu nationalist videos that are helping this anti-muslim sentiment you look at so much of this stuff and it is coming from a place that you really used to be proud of being from the San Francisco Bay Area which is now Silicon Valley and it's an absolute nightmare what they've created and you know for example Mark Zuckerberg decision that Donald Trump can run bald-faced lies which because their political advertisements they'll leave alone so I don't know where we go from here I'm very excited Elizabeth Warren wants to break up the monopolies that are Google and Facebook and Apple and Amazon and kind of like take a little something back from the oversize billionaires but I don't know what else we do the bigger project is cultural where do we get our information how do we communicate who do we believe how do we learn to sort data as data comes out as faster and harder and weirder than before I love how you said gas lighting is a collective cultural phenomenon that being accurate even in our personal encounters and conversations consistently is is resistance that matters and you speak so beautifully as well about lies being kind of aggressions I have that's they called they think they can bully the truth where I realized what Brett Kavanaugh that now our Supreme Court justice Trump and so many of these men leaves me two men have in common is that they assume they were so powerful they could insist on versions of reality that were convenient for them that weren't necessarily based on what had actually happened you see so many of these men who assume they could do whatever they wanted to a woman or a child and then just insist it didn't happen you shouldn't listen to that other person and who prevailed over and over and over until something shifted and not and I'm not saying like everything's great now but something profound has shifted I saw it shift in the 1980s you know we've had these moments where something cracked open but we do suffer and I think this is a democracy problem in a culture where everyone is valued equally your version is not more valuable than mine we don't have a culture in which one category of people are routinely believed a one category are routinely disbelieved which means that we don't have a culture in which officially were against rape but we overlook it all the time because men say they didn't do it so I feel that you know it all type this that democracy part of it is huge how do we whose story is this how do we create a world in which everyone gets to tell their own story in which people have equal audibility and so a kind of democracy of stories in which everyone gets heard I think is a lot of what the project of feminism the project of anti racism the projects of intersectionality and inclusion the projects of getting over heteronormative everything are about and it is a democratic project and it is a storytelling project you mentioned Brett Kavanaugh in your essay did you ever think that 28 years after Anita Hill that we would sort of see history repeat itself in a similar situation to that again I know they need Anita Hill achieved because often people are like oh she lost and I for the first thing I want to say I have I'm so grateful to I have so much respect for her she changed the country she created a space for thousands upon thousands of stories about workplace sexual harassment to appear actual legislation on sexual harassment was passed in 1991 after she spoke up you know I think sometimes thinks she casts you would know about this cast a spell on Clarence Thomas that silenced him for those 28 years and because he basically he's only spoke he's really only spoken up once in this century and was to defend the right of domestic violence abusers to have guns interestingly enough so but and there's a way in which what happened with the Cavanaugh hearings were almost worse because it was a it was a more it wasn't just harassment it was a physical assault there were you know and you could you could understand in 1991 why these men didn't get it in 2018 the only reason they didn't get it is because it wasn't convenient and they didn't want to at what you know 1991 I remember I actually had a great weird experience arguing what handsome bikers in a Denny's on the road north on earth i-5 from LA and actually I convinced them that Anita Hill was telling the truth it was a curly victory for me and stuff but people didn't you know all this stuff was really new in 1991 people you know who had not been sexually harassed in the workplace and I think a lot of people who had been harassed knew what happened to them they might not even have a name for it feminists gave us the word sexual harassment in the 1970s when you don't have a name for something that's very hard to do something about it it's like not knowing what disease you have so you don't have a cure and you know but the reality of this and how it impacts you and why was really new in 1991 it was old in 2018 so I feel like what happened was much worse you asked a great question how without idealizing and entrenching anger can we grant non-white and non male people an equal right to feeling and expressing it I loved that can you say more yeah there's been a bunch of stuff suggesting that women's anger is this wonderful magic awesome power and and I think on the one hand women have not been allowed to be angry you're you know and it happens to me in my life my you know I I am a feminist because that does not mean my experience in life has been feminist but quite the opposite at times many of them like the first 30 years for starters but you know we often treat women's right to express anger as liberation and there is a liberation being free to express things and having equal access that's a democracy of communication but being angry is actually an experience that makes you physically and mint and emotionally miserable usually you're shutting down in some way we used to talk about seeing red and there is a way in which you you no longer a perceptive receptive person you really don't know what you know often you don't know what's going on as a chronic state it can actually cause severe health problems and elevate you know things that bring on diabetes hypertension heart attacks etc it's not I'm not Pro anger and so I think that there's a question do we need more women's anger do we need more who do you know I think everyone should have the right to express it is one point I think that's another thing is I think we need less white male anger because that's like you know it's an easy go to fun thing for them to do and it's all treated like oh he's angry there must be a really good reason for it he's very manly and an action hero when he's anger angry and stuff and I think we should do gen wise you know some of that rage but I also think finally that we call a lot of different things by the same name and you know the book before this was called call them by their true names I think language here I'm with or well on this language is really important I think there's a kind of righteous indignation where it's like how dare you do that to those refugee children which is not like I want to punch you in the face I'm full of personal rage I want to harm things it's actually the opposites like I don't want those children to be harmed I want to protect them I want to dismantle whatever harms them and stuff so there's indignation there's outrage we're like that's completely unacceptable you know there's like the short of short-term ray which is like oh my god you just hit my Mercedes and now I'm going to yell at you until I collect your insurance information not my Mercedes you know the theoretical Mercedes and my Prius C is less exciting and you know and then there's this kind of like I am here to solve the problem of these people I'm here to free the slaves I'm here to get women the vote I'm here to stop police from shooting black men I'm here to get women equal pay I'm here to prevent need to stop discrimination against trans people and that can be a kind of fire that drives people but they're not angry at anyone so we call all these kind of things that I think can be a life purpose and dedication a kind of defense of protective reaction which is really kind of a form of love you know and your adrenaline glands going volcanic all by the same name and it doesn't help thank you so being more specific I want to ask you about this your new memoir which is out in March which is called recollections of my non-existence and you were very kindly earlier telling me about this image of you that's on the cover which is such a great image it's a photograph of me at 19 when I was very very thin and very very poor I kind of made my own way and I just moved into my first good apartment it was $200 a month in a black neighborhood wonderful black building manager invited me made it possible for me to move in and that was my home for 25 years the home in which I became a writer it's a but it's really it's about voices and voiceless Mnet's about the kind of experiences of violence against women I've so often written about in much more objective and impersonal way citing statistics looking at social tendencies that are my own experience of constant sexual harassment and threat as a young woman which was so intense that I had a few years where I really kind of had pretty intense PTSD behavior but it's also about what were those circumstances where a man where you couldn't say no because then you know that deep voice lessness you couldn't say you can't do that to me you couldn't say you know don't you know like no I'm not interested like if I with everyone whose female here knows if you say no so as you say no to those guys and they only get angrier so I had these experiences of deep voice lessness where my words did nothing first of all and telling like they couldn't send any boundaries couldn't create the space for me to choose what did and didn't happen to me and then often afterwards people couldn't hear me didn't believe me etc so there's another kind of voiceless 'no so it's really and really the feminism I've been doing for the last dozen years since I wrote men explained things you know really for the last 35 years I published my first feminist essay in 1985 you're looking at that and it's like yes and I was only a bold theory some people had that would happen several years hence but you know is that I thought but but with the recent stuff I was writing about violence against women and I realized I was really writing about voiceless honest what happens when no one believes you what happens when your voice which isn't just the ability to make sounds but its ability to use your voice to establish you know your path to assert your will to set your boundaries to bear witness you know your voice is your humanity your power your membership in a society and if you don't have it and it happens as much you know I just read Chanel Miller's amazing memoir she's the woman who's raped by the Stanford are sexually assaulted by the Stanford swimmer and you know who was anonymous all those years but she talks about the way that afterwards the whole medical legal procedure was like a whole other around of being degraded discredited devalued treated as not a competent witness to real life so he really wanted to talk about those questions about voice and talk about becoming a writer while having all those extremely ordinary experiences young women do you know this very specific quest to have a particular kind of voice that means writing books as well as having the ordinary voice people have in conversation to say no that didn't happen you're not going to Gaslight me on that so and to also and to struggle for other people you know to become a voice in defense of other people's voices so you know I haven't had to this is literally the first time I've talked in anything vaguely resembling public about it so you can see I'm still figuring out how to talk about it but it's lovely as you were saying you've done so many of these smaller essay books I'm excited to read something of yours that is more I was before Auto biographical what I do love their about your essays are they are often so generously personal as well as commentary isn't all sorts of different issues just to continue with what you're saying though I'm curious about what happens when we put the word sexual in front of violence or in front of harassment because it somehow seems to make it more debatable or less serious I've been watching all sorts of men respond to accusations of sexual violence and sexual harassment by saying oh well that never would have happened because I didn't fancy her or there's something about you removing those words it's just sexual violence is just violence and her and I okay because often something consensual becomes non-consensual something nonviolent becomes violent I want to just before we you know I don't know how much time we've got I want to make sure that I fit this in but as someone who's played a princess in a fairy tale I loved that you rewrote Cinderella you call it Cinderella liberator which is such an amazing title I read anything afterwards about the personal history of your grandmother's and were they inspiration for this exactly the actual inspiration for it is not two generations back but two generations I am the gradient of the most magnificently feisty young person named Ella and but it really began with you know I found a Cinderella illustration that I thought was wonderful and I turned it over and I had this very short text on it from one telling of the fairy tale where the fairy godmother says what shall we do for a coachman and Cinderella says I will get the rat trap and it's so great because what I died it was you know an epiphany I thought first of all Cinderella is an active collaborator and all this transformation she's not just the lucky one the fairy godmother came down and you know did everything for you know secondly they're trans this and then I thought because we're always think the most conventional version of Cinderella is it's about getting your prints and it's I just those two sentences two or three sentence I thought no this is a story about becoming a man about transformation and the fairy godmother is an agent of transformation but so Cinderella and then I was like well how is this you know if you foreground that all these things becoming other things what happens if you make it and then you know I'm not I'm not a huge princess fan I'm not sure how you feel about princesses having played one or two yeah you play them very nicely actually a great-great niece to that movie and you know but so I really was like what Cinderella for our time and it's like what does it look like to die and what is a point of transformation its liberation what does liberation look like for this girl who's unvalued and exploited and overworked and there's also very fun to realize that the name Cinderella contains the name ella ella you know Cinderella so I've written a book for Ella her younger sister as getting the next one which is going to be a Sleeping Beauty rewrite amazing yes also Arthur Ransome Rackham did fantastic silhouette images for those two yeah they could I just hold it up yes I love it so much will I burn my sleeve off with these genuine candles and one of the things I love these silhouette illustrations so much because I felt like they're sort of less racially determined that you know a kid from Iran or Brazil could look at these and they could feel like this could be me this could be my story too and there's also just incredibly beautiful happy ending is that she becomes the truest version of herself that feels it's often not the ending is told but yes yes curious to ask the truest version of yourself but that's going too far just ask myself gosh I mean what to be continued in later years over other beverages yes to be continued to be continued I want to ask you about Little Women you have a movie coming out I do how I do have a movie coming out and it is because it's also it's a bit like Cinderella Liberator and that it's a feminist retelling of a classic yes it is louisa may alcott what I love about greta's retelling of this story is that she addresses what is often very controversial about Little Women which is that a lot of readers a lot of big fans of louisa feel that she was forced by her publisher to write an ending that was not the ending for the story that she actually really wanted for it and Greta's handling of that whereby i don't want to ruin it but Greta's handling of that and the way that she uses her her script to play out almost three different endings for the story so that the audience gets to see what it would look like in multiple different versions and you don't really know which one is the real the version that she chooses for this story I remember finishing the scripts and just putting it down and going that's genius it's so clever what she does and so I'm very proud I'm very proud to be of a retelling of the story that I hope if Louisa can hear us is is an honoring of maybe part of it that she made me didn't get to say or doesn't get to tell so yeah it's it's beautiful and yeah thank you for asking me about it I saw the trailer and I'm trying to figure out which girls there's a lot of girls from 2 to 17 or 18 in my life which ones I'm going to round up to go see it yeah I mean I love the treat I mean a very similar to really what your dresses and their Liberator is that is that is all the publisher seems to care about is well which of the guys does she choose you know that's really ultimately that we want to know is which which man does she end up with and Sasha's response to that and the trailer is Jo is is so is so brilliant which is just kind of this oh my goodness how am I going to stomach the patience for for dealing with dealing with all of this I didn't realize how long I felt like I'd been waiting in a story or in this specific story to to hear the stepsisters apologize and reconcile with Cinderella I smell it I felt like sisters I hate when the sisters are portrayed as funny looking as though like we don't only have to like pretty people and pretty good people are pretty and pretty people are good and everyone else can go to hell and so we like we changed it yeah but but I also was like you know it was really interesting it's kind of a problem like how do you take this setup and it sounds a little bit like Greta's done with Little Women how do you take this set up and take it someplace else than the usual you know the the you know Cinderella gets her man everyone else gets punished etc you know and then clearly the stepmother is a Buddhist Hungry Ghost and you know but I also identified her as like the voice will hear on our own heads that like I like I can't give you anything because I need more it's mine this is all about me and you know where's the stepsisters you know go off and do their glamor glitter thing so yeah there's one thing I also just waiting I wanted to share that Rebecca brought me as a gift that I was so moved by which is that she's been working on not losing my mind she's been working on a map a Tube map of New York but all of the names on it are named after famous women instead of famous men and it's it's profound the minute I liked it I am mate immediately teared up and you told him why because I do I know why I did because it's not something that I I I get to encounter in our culture and a society I don't get to see women being celebrated in the same way don't wish well have used to called it a tube map because you were in London or I know what we should do London oh please comedian on doing amazing wow that just I have a cartographer in a designer we just have to come up with the names of how many tube stops are there on the Underground about that Darley so many probably well you know maybe no this just stuff do you see yourself as oh I grew up in are you naming ttan yeah that would that would be very meaningful to me but you need to talk yeah you cited these two beautiful quotes that two other women who had similar reactions to the reaction that I had my life to this map said can you please repeat them because yeah so yeah the city of women map was part of my 2016 New York City atlas but it's kind of a breakout map we you know it's like the singer that's gone solo we're distributing it separately because it just resonated with people and it was so exciting for me to do one of the things that shocking is I I have lived my whole life in a manscape I grew up in a town named after a man in a County named after a man you know on a continent named man you know and almost all places are named after men whether it's mountains rivers buildings bridges cities states we have some exceptions we have a couple English queens in Maryland in Virginia and a few other things but it's really a male world and I think that tells little boys you couldn't like it's it's like the fact that most monuments in in New York City until very recently had only five statues of historic women you know and hundreds upon hundreds of men and so there's nothing for girls that said like you can be you know a general a hero and at the unit cetera and it really I think it's one of the infinite things that aggrandized men and withered away the space for women to be but so I taught at Columbia when this map was coming out and I did a field trip with some students around New York I showed them the map and I said how would your life be different if you and these were mostly not white people either how would your life be different if you lived in a city named after people like you where everything was named after people like you and these two young women said the most amazing things to me one of them said I have you know I have slumped over all my life I would stand up straight in a city named after people like me and the other one just said would a man dare sexually harassed me on a street named after a great woman and it was really they were so smart and so right and just the subtlety of how this changes our conduct to be in spaces that a grand Isis or not and Harlem named a bunch of streets after black people but they're all male they're you know the great Harriet Tubman statue at the north end of Central Park but they're still we still live in a man scape and it was really changing that was so exhilarating for me we did a new version that's got Alexandria Casa Cortez and some other people added and I don't see why we shouldn't do in London one I think would be really fun okay okay you off you're ready to become a printer and distributor we're ready to go - I you're so big undoubtedly yes see this this is known as the famous conversation which I cornered Emma and made her commit to creative projects or or this will be the fairy town which I turned her into a tube stop I feel very attitude so my human being I feel very unconscious thank you so much for all of your work thank you I I said so the end of the letter that I write for my book club but we all have all different sorts of mothers and you have intellectually politically spiritually in all sorts of ways and my understanding have been a mother to me so I'm very very grateful to you and thank you I think of myself more often as an aunt but it's that sort of nonlinear nurture of it but thank you so much Wow and thank you daddy another mother I'm sure you have many I know you have an actual one and many others yes I do I have many many I'm a wonderful mother I'm very do all right thank you and thank you all [Applause] [Music]

Channel: Totally Emma Watson

Views: 534,885

Rating: 4.8948092 out of 5

Keywords: emma watson, feminism, feminist, our shared shelf, book, club, Rebecca Solnit

Id: qdNHZDq7XHQ

Length: 41min 5sec (2465 seconds)

Published: Thu Dec 12 2019