Elephant Room Round 1 | Session 5 | Perry Noble and Matt Chandler (2011)

[Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] all right welcome back to the elephant room we are gonna talk multi-site in this discussion let me clarify it when we're talking about multi-site if you want to learn more you got a lead net dot-org leadership network particularly under warren Byrd has done the preponderance of real investigative research about multi-site and here there are a few ways as well to do multi-site there's a live preacher rotating between locations kind of like the old method a circuit rider there can be a live preaching team so it's essentially a network of churches with a preacher at each location there can also be a video which tends to be the most controversial aspect of the multi-site movement where a preacher is live in one location and via video in another and then also there are various combination approaches that combine these various ways of delivering the sermon at present in the United States there are more multi-site churches than there are mega churches there are roughly 2,000 mega churches there are roughly 3,000 multi-site churches and so this is a very fast-growing phenomenon and trend and most of the largest churches in America in fact on the hundred largest list almost every single church on that list is doing multi-site almost every single one as well we have seen it cross over into various cultures and communities and even churches that have primary ethnic makeup that is non Anglo this is also shocking as someone who's really involved in church planning through acts 29 they have a 90 percent success rate traditional church planting is over a 50 percent failure rate multi-site is a 90 percent success rate and according to a leadership network survey 79 percent of churches doing multi-site report that their percentage of volunteers has greatly increased and so let me do this for we get started Pastor James how many sites do you have six six locations for to be eight soon to be a will make it eight prophetically prophetically speaking pastor Greggy for us three for you David one one but it's a great one are you thinking about doing multi-site um no it depends on this conversation yeah yeah I'm yeah we'll ask you in a half an hour we should have put you up here to fight with these guys pastor Steve it for for pastor Matt three three five five we're at ten pregnant with the fuse so that's a lot you want to do the math we should let Chandler do it you don't let me to do the math okay I got to take your shoes off okay ten is thirty six okay no is the seven sixty right there by the way Bam Bam Bam tone for it was 24 there's 24 so we're twenty four sites represented here so that being the case multi-site why did you go multi-site everybody else was doing it I just I really have a heart the way our started is we were in Anderson the city of Anderson has twenty three twenty four thousand people in it the entire county has a hundred and seventy thousand a second how big is your town twenty two twenty three thousand how are you in your church we have roughly Anderson campus seven to eight thousand come every week Wow so that's so you can't go to the grocery store I can but I have 72 conversations it's great if I just want some tic-tacs man 24,000 people they're only coming in for supplies every other week or something like exactly exactly like the horse buggy and so but Greenville is the county next to us it's one of the largest cities in the state we started noticing a lot of people coming from Greenville and they would come to Anderson and one of the comments they would make is we love this church we love this church but our unchurched friends aren't willing to drive 30 minutes and you say whatever you want to about the unchurched community but instead of screaming at them we should probably do whatever it takes to go reach them and so the the idea for multi-site for us came out of well if there's a lot of unchurched people in Greenville and we did the research and there were more unchurched people in Greenville than there actually was an Anderson we said let let's just go because we had heard of Craig Rochelle and we knew Greg Surratt and we had seen hey this this works I think it might work and so let's give it a shot and so in 2008 we opened up a campus and it that campus opened with 1700 people so we were like hey that might that we might have hit something there multi-site works multi-site works yeah and so what we did what we discovered was people said I don't want to go see a video I don't wanna go see a video once you come one time that that argument goes away you you you're like yeah you you just don't you swear to us for those who get saved in a multi-site Church we're now hearing that a live preacher is unusual for them because that's not what they're accustomed to well I wit I've gone to these campuses um on just a couple of occasions and I stood in the lobby of one campus and people walked right by me to talk the campus pastor and if they did walk by me it was like yeah but that South Carolina that's just I mean we're aggressive we we did start the Civil War I mean we are an aggressive Mudge but boldly going in the wrong direction we did multiply it wasn't to be like hey you know okay Craig Rochelle did it so let's go do it or we were like man there's people in Greenville that that need to hear the gospel and let's just see your primary motivations evangelism yes pragmatism well people need Jesus it works and I will agree with the statements that at multi-site campuses we see more people volunteering we see more people plugging I mean we we all those statistics you shared I mean there are true I mean okay Matt why did you go multisig cuz you that was slow but yeah but you are you're kind of a Bible teaching and I love you I've known you for years Baptists guy you're all about making sure the church is not just in a conference of meets sure 52 weeks a year but it's really you said some things like their works fairly negative toward multi-site so now you have multi-site so explain that hypocrisy okay well first and foremost I'm a hypocrite well here's our progression we were at we were at six services turning away from all six of those separation of all yes that's tiring I have noticed that yet it's a bit exhausting so I and you cuz this happened when you were down so I yeah I can't go to boot camp Matt went to bed and woke up eight days later yeah days late I was like where's Matt he's in bed next day where's Matt Matt is invent the next day where is Matt Matt is still in bed is Lauren with him is this a good thing now he's tired no kidding so we're in are you done oh we kind of hit that wall we know this isn't gonna work I didn't want to build the monster man in my context in Dallas I just didn't want to build the monster man okay explain the monsters it's like a sand volleyball court yes and a backup one and and you get your kid by having your retina scan they shot they shoot them out of a tube holding your favorite latte right into your arms I didn't want to build that I don't I don't look at those places in Dallas and think they've done something wrong I just think they've done it and so people who are attracted to that real attraction based model it's there so back to a verdict spawning earlier today when he's going hey hey man there's a church on every we don't have to be for everybody we're trying to do this well I can look at the landscape in Dallas and go double-decker basketball court encased in glass Rockwall skatepark we don't need to spend our money there trying to attract to reach that's not what we need to spend our money and and so I didn't want to build monster I didn't want to spend some numbers from Dallas legitimate numbers 138 million 150 million all right American dollars yeah which is I mean it'd be worse because euros right but in in the end American dollars on a building that for the most parts gonna sit empty not or then they're gonna have to fill it with programming and and so all of that to reach people with Christ yes and I meant I'm not trying to say the wrong I'm saying we I didn't want to do it didn't feel called to it with a clean conscience didn't feel like I could do it and and so then in the end I fly up to Seattle you you asked me about video I said that I thought was a bit cult of personality and you laughed at me and said like the village hidden like your personality had been playing into the village now and and so we went back and we talked about it went out and hung out with Larry Osbourne and then we we took our to Sunday night services and and we made those two Sunday night services video and really the question we ask is are we willing to kill these are we willing to lose 1,400 people over this decision and and you know for longevity and health we said yeah we are and went to video and it worked and you know the other side works yeah and and so I mean literally within everybody giggled when the video started and then 15 minutes and I said what's that word and everybody responded and I was like okay well this is not gonna solve anything so to get to multi-site a lot quicker than I'm getting there we we hit the wall at that video they all our services were maxing out again and and and so we began we the church started eight to ten weeks of prayer and fasting in in the middle of all that we were approached by a church in Denton which is 20 minutes north of us grace Temple Baptist they were their numbers were down about taking that campus and owning it and and that was right after week two when we had prayed do this in such a way that nobody can get credit for we can't teach anybody else how to do it we just have to say God heard this and answered this prayer and so I I went to that meeting with LAN level who's the was the pastor there time still on staff with us at that campus but but he he began to just kind of say what do you think about the this thing coming together and I was even then going man I don't know I just think that's not gonna solve anything I'm gonna have the same problem in two locations I'm gonna have you know turn away people there turn away people here it doesn't really solve anything but I started in the middle that conversation feeling like the guy from the old corny preacher story that's you know in a flood drowning on top of his roof going god please save me and a boat comes by and he's like no no no no it God's gonna save me and then a helicopter comes by and tries to save me like now God's gonna save me then he dies like where were you at Lord he's like I sent a boat and a helicopter and so at that point we were gonna test out multisite with Denman and my question was all about Missy ology if I was just creating butts in the seats for people who wanted to see the Matt Chandler show I was not okay with that if it was gonna be a viable church that was reaching people and disciple in people with the gospel then I'm more comfortable with it albeit still nervous it's a tool at the time that was nobody really knew how to use it and everybody was playing with it and and so that quote they showed from me and the rollout is a quote during that season where everybody's playing with this new tool and and to be frank know what he really knew what they were doing they were just trying stuff okay let me get you guys each get twenty seconds to never go to the bullpen where is it going multi-site where is it going and relatedly what does that mean for the small church pastor I think it's going to continue to grow and I think the small church pastor will will be okay I mean it's a if somebody thinks that the video can trump the anointing of God on a man to preach they have a really small view of God I mean and so I don't think it's an either/or thing both church planting and where's it going what happens to the pastor of the average you know smaller tree I think you're gonna see more and more and more multi-site I mean you're already I mean you're you're quote in the stats I think there's a better fleshed out understanding of how to work it now and how to do so and what I believe is a correct biblical ecclesiology and and I think the small church pastor still gonna be there he's gonna be an agent of reconciliation in churches that are coming out of dark things and he's gonna become a campus pastor that hits 12 home runs a year and and and loves people well and Shepherds people faithfully okay go to the wolf in david platt our one service for one campus representative how many services do you guys have three so you're not anti multi service no do you do video i mag in the road oh yeah yeah jeff video overflow room no okay do you put your video of the sermon online or just the audio both okay both in so what do you think multi-site viable yes no concerns viable sure like i wouldn't sit around and debate with you guys and say that it's not good or wise or certainly not biblical i don't think it's unbiblical as we dove into it and we saw a picture of church planting enact so this was the journey we went through in our leadership among the elders and we saw our gospels preach disciples are made and strengthened elders formed and then that that's church and elders who are who are the primary teachers among that body who were living them on that body who are showing the gospel in action i mowing that body which to i would say even right now in the in the mass or we have in three worship gathering they don't get to see that as much and so that I think it's a problem even with with where I'm at right now but I think the ideal is planting churches where elders are teaching the word in that body and then caring for that body and the primary people that are caring for the primary people that are being heard I don't think we need to create expectations for these guys to be able to preach to huge crowds I think there are tons of teachers all over the church that we can raise up and equip they can teach to smaller groups and I want to empower those guys and when we empower those guys I think there's no end to the spread of the gospel not just in this context with another okay and would you though not see campuses as a form of church planting it depends on how those campuses are do they have primary teaching and do they have elders at that campus and are those elders the primary teachers of the word at that campus if so then called a church instead of a campus but do you see any spiritual authority are you a functional cessationist or continuationist i would be a cautious continuing so you'd be a cessationist in denial okay so our continuation is lacking faith or continuation is lacking faith pastor Jo says so so within that do you see any Authority and then apostolic sense beyond eldership in the local church meaning an apostle that works between multiple churches not just elders who Shepherd a local think primary primary Authority it needs to do with elders in a local body of believers do you agree that there is an apostolic gifting today that causes someone to lead a whole movement or network of churches like a multi-site certainly I think God has gifted some brothers in a way that it can can encourage many churches but not in an authoritative way like an elder in a local church is okay that I bring that up because that's a that's an ecclesiological issue if all you see in the Bible is elders then you don't see the role for more of an apostolic leader across multiple campuses or churches if you see more of an apostolic function small aid not capital a not writing books of the Bible but a movement leader across multiple churches campuses congregations then then it'll it does change how you have to organize and you view the Apple stock leader as authoritative over those congregations under authority to a body of elders acting as an elder but first among equals leading a whole network yes like a lord bishop like more bishop like but you know the words are so polluted and conjured and your apostle you think a guy in a white suit his wife lost a paintball gun war you know it's just the whole words destroyed you know it's just been destroyed here and Bishop you know it's a guy in a robe you know so pastor James you do you see yourself with the 10 harvest campuses and you plant churches - you plant about 70 churches what role do you think there is for something beyond the elder of just a local church well first of all I don't think that multisite should ever be a substitute for the mandate to raise up train Commission and send out pastors so every church I'd be less concerned about how many campuses you have and I would say okay Perry you got campuses make sure you're raising up and training and sending out yourself because I think one of the big questions that multi-site raises is if we can reproduce the pastoral care if we can reproduce the worship if we can reproduce the location and then we put ourselves on the screen then by default what we're saying is the only thing you can't reproduce is me and so then I think the litmus test for that is is can you point to places where people that you've poured your life into our pastoring and leading autonomous self-governing churches I think that's absolutely essential but if you are accomplishing that then you can begin to say that multi-site is a kind of church plant not a substitute for raising up and sending out timothy's but it's a kind of way to launch a church and I struggle for example in Chicago Chicago I mean the the body of Christ is reeling with struggle about what to do with world-class cities these big massive cities that we have such a fractional saved population and I could just tell you that in our city we got pastors here that have planted independent harvests in the city of Chicago but right now honestly our campus strategy reaches more people sooner than our church planting city in this city and so it's our predominant philosophy going forward at least for our own city more campus give more resources resources so many church plants are under-resourced I remember when archers need on a pencil we start with 18 people have nothing they've nothing dreamed of a part-time youth pastor for two years all right so we'd have nothing when a when a mega large church plants a campus it's like rocking it from day one resourced in every way it's just hard for the church planner to compete with that no more no wonder 50% fails so mr. Gregg well I don't think it's either/or I think it's both I think we do both it this last year we we started a live church and as opposed to a dead one uh yeah sent a guy up to LA and he any Planeta Church and then we've also been you know we've started to satellite video only hey here's the thing that I think people don't realize the greatest critics of multi-sites are usually people that have never attended one that's good I had someone say to me recently she was close to her multi-site loves it trying to get a friend to go no no no I'm against it I'm against it I'm against it finally she goes now that's all she wants to go to because it takes like an out it takes almost 50 minutes to get in and out of our parking lot because of the where place is set up you go to the multi-site there's like about 450 people at this one in particular everybody gets to know everybody hey you want a pastor there's a pastor there's a pastor there's a pastor you come to the to the main campus and we're so we're spread out so thin you have to look around to get a pastor they actually get better pastoral care develop better interpersonal relationships they have all the advantages that our church provides but with that small church feel that people like but then I don't think that shouldn't take the place of planning churches so I think it's all the above mm-hmm my street verdict what's what's helpful to me about developing leaders within the context of multi-site church is that I'm able to raise up and train a lot of leaders who may not have a strong teaching or preaching gift but they have a strong leadership gift and I'm able to put them in a position where they can lead their campus but they're not responsible for a 40 minute sermon 40 weeks a year and it's actually enabled my ability to raise up more different kinds of leaders who may not have as public a gift but they may be incredible leaders also our first campus was within 14 months and we started the campus because we were truly out of room to reach people for Christ and within 30 days of finding another High School Auditorium we started a second campus and it was very much pragmatically driven but then I've kind of backed into a lot of the benefits and one of them is it is what you make of it right so if you want to use the fact that you're preaching on video screens at all these campuses as a means to as a means to create this celebrity culture you can but every time I talk about video teaching in our church I try to make the point it's not about me you see coming out of Charlotte where it used to be to grow a church you had to buy 50 acres build the biggest building that you could put someone in and and one live man live presence determines how big the church can grow now I'm able to say it doesn't matter where I am God is everywhere at all of our campuses it's not about me and we're able to Train the people who watch the sermon on the video to be less consumeristic to realize that it's not about what building what campus I'm at it's about first and foremost the gospel and I mean by that Matt I mean the preaching of the death burial resurrection of Jesus Christ faith in Him you know not the jump to a version but it's about that and it's about the mission and so we've actually used it rather than I think a lot of people have the perception that it makes it more about the man less about it it can be less about the man because you're constantly making the statement I don't have to be in that building for you as a church to receive God's Word okay which is my thumb where's my thumb that's good thumbs up and I know I'm totally I'm not done yet David thumbs up or down have you just practice okay alright ok so like and and I really I I see what you're saying we're all you guys are saying but you are still there via video instead of someone else so you are saying somebody else couldn't do it there right no no so somebody else saying that they couldn't do it as good do we believe that all gifts are equal no do we believe that every preacher is as fruitful ISM there's some thirtyfold some sixtyfold some 100-volt so I'm not gonna put Jo apprentice to be thirty fold in five years up there if you can have something that if you can put something sixty fold up there I mean where's the economy aren't we supposed to Stuart all this yeah III think somewhere along the way if we're not careful we in the hundred talent guys we really crushed the ten talent guys and which is like church planting some Paul in acts twenty nine you know Matt Marion acts 29 and there's 400 Church plants and a lot of those guys are small core group and struggling slugging it out we give we serve we fund I mean how much is the village given a church planning this year I don't know it's significant yeah I mean we're given I think 1.5 million you're probably pushing a million you know I mean so it's a both/and so we're funding lots of core groups and it's to me it's it is a both and you send out campuses you send out church planners and everybody makes their run because there's enough loss people for everybody yes yeah and I don't I don't think that I think that the idea that somehow Mark Driscoll has always been the guy that he is I mean we started with 18 people I was the guy that was slugging it out I was the guy the five years into our church I don't have a story like Stephen verdict as five years into our church we had 500 people and one year we grew from 400 to 250 like I did all that I did all that alright and I in the trenches of refining your gift if and I don't would never the Lord is the test of our fruitfulness and I would never refer to myself as a sixty fold there's a hundred fold preacher but let's allow that there appears to be some significant fruit God will test it in the end and I just don't believe that I'm so I want the the young guy who's struggling I want him to go through the same things that I had to go through to refine your gift to develop your gif I didn't roll out of bed one day and start preaching to thousands of people and I want the church planters that are here that we've sent out to go through that process but I don't want to feel like I have to limit my fruitfulness in the most fruitful years of my life so I can prove to him then I want him to have a chance yes plant churches but I don't have to tuck my most abundant years of fruitfulness in so you can feel like I'm not suppressing you I'm definitely out on that okay let's go to questions aren't multi-site preachers losing the value of being a shepherd not now there's prophets priests and kings right this is our deal King systems falsies procedures dollars real estate stewardship effectiveness prophets Bible theology preaching teaching guarding the gate theologically priests loving shepherding caring community affection and so this is the this is the priests question if if you just have a lot of kings and prophets guys who can make it go big and preach it real strong does that not negate them being actually a shepherd a pastor of people no well good I mean listen one of the things that that I learned very quickly is my first church there were a hundred people where I served on staff I was a part-time youth pastor and I watched a pastor in a small Baptist Church in the Upstate of South Carolina and that pastor great pastor great man of God you can't you can't effectively Shepherd a hundred people you can't there's not a man on the planet that can effectively Shepherd a hundred people knowing love leading being invested being involved not know the phrases Shepherd smell like sheep and I know all that but if the Shepherd is down with the Sheep then who leads the Sheep like the Sheep starve to death because they're obsessed with one another and and that that becomes a problem so that's why it's essential for the shepherd to raise up shepherds within the body that the church isn't effective when the pastor ministers to the people the church is effective when the body ministers to the body because the church is that's dependent on the pastor you let that pass yeah all these guys that say multi situs personality driven and we're not a multi-site you let their pastor leave and you watch what happens to their church boom it goes down and so the reason I'm saying that are that the multi-site model works so effectively is because I've got campus pastors now who like Stephen was saying they don't have to focus on preparing a message which by the way it's freaking work it's not hard work they don't have to focus on that they don't have to worry about that their job is to take care of the people and raise up shepherds within the body so the church actually can minister to one another there's there's two things that I would say to this someone is to answer the question directly if the primary teaching pastor of a multi-site church isolates himself to the point that he's not shepherding people then absolutely he'll miss out on the the joy of shepherding people I mean that's absolutely true it's a huge leap though to take that idea and go a multi-site pastor does that and and that's the leap that's being taken even in this question that's simply not true I I live a mile from our flower mound campus I walk into that building I know men and women that attend our church I go to the hospital I even though we do have campus pastor we do have care ministries we do have so it's this jump it's this let me find what's wrong with it kind of positioning on this issue that's unhelpful because yeah but you can you can do that in a non multi-site Church I mean you can isolate yourself when you're sues your church's 600-plus you can isolate yourself back to your your books I mean man I've known guys to do that with a church of 60 mm-hm and and so that that's not the the multi side issue it's in the multi-site question this is a pastoral shepherding question that could happen anywhere it isn't there a difference though - between the sheep focus Shepherd and a flock focus show there's no doubt a sheep focus Shepherd is more of a pure priest who says Joe's hurting I'm gonna go to the house floc focus Shepard says a lot of people are hurting I need to train an army of counselors to make all the hospital visits yeah and so just cuz you pastor a larger flock doesn't mean you're not doing shepherding but you're doing a lot of Shepherd training and that's where legitimate campus pastors real elders real deacons real small groups real community at the campus is absolutely essential but I think I would argue then what that provides is then the pastors get a pastor and that's what a lot of guys don't get their shepherding the flock nobody's shepherding them nobody's asking how's your marriage how's your sleep how's your health how's your kids how's your soul how are you because it's Shepherd sheep and there's no Shepherd for the Shepherd right and in a and in this situation we've got I spend I mean I I still mean with rape victims I still do hospital visits I still do a certain amount of work with single moms and stuff but at the end of the day I really am most concerned about my campus pastors in certain senior level leaders because then they're leading whole campuses with hundreds and sometimes thousands of people and I want to be their pastor because if I can make sure that again back to that more apostolic role who pastors the pastor I never had that to this last day I don't have a pastor I've never had a pastor I I swim without a lifeguard on duty now some of my elders have come along to help and to serve and to grow in that area but if we could build a church where you know it's kind of a senior Shepherd caring for shepherds who are caring for group leaders and counselors who are caring for the flock then I think you can't say well this isn't this isn't a church that Shepherds it may not be a senior Shepherd he's doing a lot of shepherding but a lot of shepherding is getting done so he may not be going to the hospital 20 times a week but those are all covered by people who love Jesus so next question Internet campus so I didn't believe in that most can create one but should we what you guys think of an online like Second Life Church right yeah is there such a thing as a church online like I took I clicked for communion I clicked for baptism oh I would say no they're the gathering of the people of God is a mandate in Scripture and that's not a virtual gathering that's a physical smelly pursuit of the Lord it's not it would be a weird way to have a marriage - wouldn't it like I mean people are trying it yeah my opinion is I've done a 180 on this mark two years ago I would have said yes and we tried it and that it just I've had people say people are more honest online and I'm like oh really is that while their game name is Otto guy 165 because they're so honest and and so I'm like no they're not they're there they're fake online and so we tried it and we tried it for about nine or ten months and I came finally came to the conclusion you get you got it what you said yeah that's what I that's what we tried it just didn't work so I think now if other people are doing it great but I think you've got to meet together with a body of believers okay and I'm supposed to do wrap at this point and I would say a couple things we at this point go on multi-site we're not to name names or be disparaging some people I really do love and respect met with them and they said okay we're doing multi-site Church you're growing we were at five service at the time we'd been I mean at one time I was doing seven services three locations on Sunday which was suicide and they said just go multicenter and it works it totally works and you know I want something that works but at the end of the day I asked okay you're doing multi-site Church what's a church so I asked a number of pastors doing multi-site and I never got an answer I mean it was like the great assumption well you know we're two or more gathered and that's a verse on church discipline I mean it's like you know it doesn't have a doesn't even doing anything so I was like okay well before we do multi-site Church we need to define church and then whatever the Bible says churches then we do multi-site Church we need to do that in various places but just we need to do what the Bible says so that led to write in a book and all that kind of stuff so I think for those that are looking at multi-site our first recommendation would be or my first recommendation be make sure you have a clearly defined biblical conviction about a church and what a church is and what the church does and then when you're reverse engineering your multi-site philosophy you're thinking through how are we going to do that how we're going to do church discipline how are we gonna do sacraments are we gonna do community and unity and love and leadership and mission and evangelism and what will this require once you do that though you do have an opportunity to take the resources of an existing church and if you do it like a church plant instead of an overflow room it really can and does succeed and this also gives us an opportunity three and a half thousand churches in America our plateaued closed declining every year three half thousand churches dine closed 80% are plateaued and declining and it's a lot of the times because the person leading that is a priest really loves the people but not a king who knows how to build it and not a prophet who can proclaim enough to really gather a crowd and mobilize and what we're finding is is in some of those situations you get a building and a good priest if you come in with a king and a prophet they can clean that place up help get the word out bring the people in and teach the Bible then that pastor is really happy because sometimes for him it's 20 30 40 hours a week of sermon prep and theological study and laboring and he can't get to you can't get to the people right they can't get to the people let me let me close this how long does it take you to prepare a sermon seven eight hours yeah when his podcast comes up I just download that and otherwise probably the same thing probably seven or eight closer 20/20 and twelve ten twelve I would say ten to twelve yeah eight to ten eight to ten so let's say there's an average of two and a half 60 to 90 minutes from start to finish but sometimes I say stuff I shouldn't so what do you take let's say ten hours a week and for a guy start now he's at fifteen or twenty yeah let's say you're gonna have ten churches that's you start doing the math that's two to four hundred hours a week of sermon prep or ten to twenty and then you're freeing up hundreds of hours to Train leaders be on mission and care for people so we'll give it to Jeff

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Length: 37min 29sec (2249 seconds)

Published: Thu Nov 28 2019