Elephant Room Round 1 | Session 2 | Mark Driscoll and Perry Noble (2011)

[Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Applause] welcome back again to the elephant room were fired up to be here and we got another big discussion on the table and I got two people who can bring a big time right here so I'm a little scared but we're gonna do this right now we're going to talk about culture in the church now y'all are both more culture guys than me so I feel like maybe you're both on the left of how I see this but I want to listen and I want to learn and so let's allow for the caricature at the beginning because we're charactered all the time you're caricatured all the time really yeah I know I know I'm sure you're not even aware of that so so Driscoll is going to speak in a minute but first I want to hear from you Perry and I want you just to talk about you I want you to talk about culture and its importance and how it helps you be I mean you got a boom and growing church tons of people coming to Christ lots of what people would consider pretty relevant connected stuff going on just give us your philosophy on that why it's important to what you're doing yeah I did a I did a series of messages back in in 2008 ongoing questions that people were asking I rigged all for you by the way yeah it was awesome and and I the illustration I used was my wife and I were going to a gym one day we're on vacation we're going to the gym so we went to this gym and you know it's like okay we're gonna go in there workout and we just got to find a parking place right and there wasn't a parking place literally we drove around this gym three times and I guess it was God telling us we don't need to workout we're on vacation so we went back home clearly but the point was I wanted to go there but there wasn't a there wasn't a parking place and the more I thought about that I thought about men that that's the that's a lot of churches not all churches but that's the church is I don't think I don't think the world is as anti Church or America is as anti Church as some people say they are I just think people are walking in and the church is answering questions that nobody's asking I'm at the end of the day nobody cares about the trichotomy and dichotomy other spirit like that's not a question burning on the lady's heart they they want to know my mother just died or my daughter just died does the Bible say anything about that yeah and so that when I talk about engaging culture I'm talking about engaging them where they are and bringing them to the word I think that's what Jesus I think that's what Jesus did Jesus you don't see him showing up and saying open up your I mean he did open up the scroll but not every time he's engaging culture he's going to the parties he's hanging out with people he's talking to people to people about where they are in their life and then it he yeah he always brings it back to him because that's who he is but I think that's what we do in in the Bible we engage people were with where they are but then we bring them to the Word of God all right talk about the culture some of the things you're doing culturally to connect with that well we started out Easter a couple years ago with Highway to Hell by ac/dc and it guys love that by the way they did man a lot of them are still really well they just they just need to understand I was predestined to do it God before the foundations of the earth happen those guys freaked out God obviously wanted it to happen so that's been so everything that's everything that happens God wanted yeah I'm sure whatever I but we started out with that song but it was a message on the subject of hell and you know and how Jesus died and one of the reasons one of the reasons he died on the cross was to deliver us from Hell what we started with Highway to Hell by ac/dc and it was really tense it was even tense for me but we had a guy who I was a temple because you know I did grow up going to church on Easter and I never heard that one [Laughter] the cantata the senior adult choir never busted out so anyway I uh but we we had a guy come up to us and several months later and he had received Christ and he said God he said in that song it's where he felt God speak to him and tell him that's the highway you're on and so you know people have asked does the end justify the means well I don't know ask that guy in heaven I think he's probably going to say yes and so we've we've we were willing to do things like that we're willing to take a step out there and engage culture but the purpose is always to bring them back here well we're gonna engage on whether that's a good idea or not in a minute but I think you fairly expressed what you've done and let's see let's hear some of your thoughts on this engaging the culture here's the thing guys where's the line how far is too far I think that's what I won't have the conversation about things that your guys are doing to culturally engage is that too far because frankly I don't want to give commentary on it now but I want to hear that discussion I want to talk about that elephant in the room because I'm telling you there's a lot of people think that that is way too far so let's have that conversation and where are you at on the culture yeah I'll go big missiology up and talking to stuff since the mid 90s but every people live in a culture the way you do language holidays tradition view authority communication mode of dress transportation education I mean every people live culturally contextualized so you look at Jesus he is in a culture in heaven he intentionally as a missionary leaves that culture to come cross culturally to the earth he says roughly 40 plus times in John's Gospel the father has sent me the father sent me so he sent from one culture to another he's incarnated he's contextualized Isis in John 20:21 as the father sent me so I send you so to be a Christian is to be a sent one is to be a missionary is to be in the culture and then you look in the Gospels that various music culture there's the Pharisees who are more like the modern-day fundamentalist and sectarians where they try to have a subculture that is more of a sanctified culture and void loss people Jesus says they're hypocrites and that they're handing out divorces like some people handout Halloween candy and so even the most religious tend to be hypocritical there's the Sadducees who don't avoid culture but they embrace it they become liberals is what they become there's the Essenes which are sort of the modern-day equivalent of the Pentecostal and charismatic so they avoid culture for personal unmediated spiritual experience with God or at least as they understand him and then there's the apostles who are culturally connected and engaged and and I would go to Paul I always go to Paul and when he says in 1st Corinthians 9 well I'll start he says first you got to get Jude 3 there's there's contend and contextualize and this is what we're always hammer and you know contend for the faith that was once for all delivered unto the Saints oh it's that closed handed contending fighting here's the truth here's what we believe in here's what we're doing don't let me interrupt you and then and then there's the contextualize which is the 1st Corinthians 9 I became all things to all men so that by all means I might save as many as possible and I do it all for the sake of the gospel that I might share in its blessings and in that this issue of culture is where do you contextualize where do you contend where are you flexible with your methods where are you absolutely inflexible with your convictions and that's really the discernment of ministry and so I use the language - it comes to culture there's three things we can reject receive redeem reject is we won't have anything to do with that there's there's nothing godly there receive it is you know what we can use that it's part of general revelation common grace and then there is redeem this is a good thing that's gone a bad direction is there a way for us to utilize so to use the song as a case study of a Perry service yeah it's not simple write in and ask us about this highway to hell things so that should act it should they receive it or should they redeem it and this is true I mean the Puritans hated Christmas and they rejected it because it was wrongly I mean every holiday is pagan at its core every technology probably was invented by an unbeliever revivalist hated hymns they were a bunch of bar Tunes cartoons yeah and they stole the organ from the bar so all of these issues it's do we contend here do we contextualize here could we receive this to reject this to redeem this and what happens is sort of the the lowest IQ on the internet just says it's worldly so is the Internet you know I mean right but that was very helpful let's hear some of your thoughts on that receive reject redeem receive reject relate that you're gonna take it home yeah yeah I think that's very helpful actually because it gives you it it gives you a little bit about okay so I'm gonna receive that part of culture into my philosophy of ministry I'm gonna reject that as not suitable or appropriate for ministry and I'm going to I was receive and redeem different receivers just it's okay as is redeem is there's a way to do this that honors the gossler sieve it then nope nope no problem I redeem it we're gonna have to work with it a bit but we can use it reject it that doesn't belong here right you speak to some of that and choices that y'all are making and how do you feel about that period I mean like I said I love the fact that we use highway to hell I mean we're we're I love that we've did a song who sings the song bleeding love who sings that song I don't care I'm sure they don't but we did the song we did the song one time it's it's a cycle I even hate that Jesus didn't die to make songs Christian but I we used that song but put it to the clips of the Passion of the Christ well now when somebody's driving down the road that attended one of our worship services and they hear the song bleeding love I've had people tell me that's where my mind goes every time mom mind goes back to Jesus dying on with that example of redeeming myself yeah when I hear when I hear but even using the passion is redeeming like none of us are gonna put Mel Gibson on our team right like he actually I think is on Charlie Sheen stay down this close to being a deacon right so so the point is is that in taking the movie The Passion of the Christ and not very hard from culture not very hard to redeem that but with the song the example you're giving is I want to go to this highway to hell thing all right because I'm like so out on the fact that you did that like out on that I can't believe you did that salsa put me in that category so I'm fired up about you I'm fired about the passion that you have for the Lord and for the gospel and for God's Word uh-huh but so I'll just be the guy I just I just don't get it at all and here's what I don't get let me ask you this okay so when God tells Isaiah to strip naked and I was a twenty you would have probably going has they I don't get this well I think first of all anytime you try to make something to happen in scripture normative okay so I'm just saying it's in the Bible we should have at least know a year we should have someone strip naked no no but it's there's instances what do you do in Acts chapter 17 when Paul quotes to secular quote rocks alms when he's reaching the Athenians what do you do in Matthew chapter two when God uses astrology you know to reach the Oise men I mean how can we say that those methods were not effective it's not 1:1 prophets tripping now naked it's all through the scriptures where God meets people where they are and brings them to where he is right that's why we do what we do you know I think that God meeting somebody where they are isn't quite the same as taking something that is blatantly offensive to the gospel and the cross and bringing it into the center of the church and believing that that's advancing the cause like at some point we got to give a little credit to God's Spirit and to God's Word and not be quite so dependent on our ability to sort of bridge this little that's what if God's Spirit and God's Word led us to actually do the illustration in the first place well I would need to be God's Word because I think God's Spirit led me is a little subjective right I mean we got I don't know what we got people on death row that God led them to kill their family so that's true that's true I think it would have to be God's Word that said it not some subjective sense of what God's spirits leading me to do because I had too much beads but it doesn't God's Word directly contradict what we did well I and I think this comes down to this comes down to an important issue and that's do we only can we only do what the Bible commands or can we do whatever we want except with the Bible forbids that's a big theological question yeah and I think you said them backwards I think the week the first question is is can we do anything that the Bible forbids the answer is clearly no we'd all be there and it's good for us to hear so if you and I have a point of difference it's because we see what the by it might be the problem that people make and I don't want to run to your defense or cuz I want to hammer you some more but but but I want but I want to acknowledge that the mistake is and this is partly why I want to have these discussions today because the mistake is to say because Perry does different than what I believe the Bible says he doesn't agree that the Bible should be the authority and that's wrong what's right is he may see differently than I do what the Bible forbids and I just I just really struggle with people who try to get up on this high horse of oh well Perry did that I wouldn't do that he must not believe the Bible like I do that's the problem well the other problem though James is people lose their freaking mind because we did Highway to Hell they don't watch the rest of the service and and when you isolate we did Highway to Hell well yeah that I mean I can see where that could be problematic in somebody's mind but if you watch the rest of the service it was not the end point it was the place where we jumped off to lead people to a place where ultimately I preach the gospel and people received her okay so so and you can speak to this too but you got going on you got all these people that are criticizing me included but for some different reasons that we'll get to this Highway to Hell thing in the beginning of the service y'all are gonna love this Easter by the way it is gonna be if we're doing running I don't think I don't think I don't think so so yeah you know what one-one egregious offence at a time feel like I just I think I know why the Baptist's don't invite you to the convention they never do but it but here's what I want here's what I want to get to on that point is is that the fact of the matter is is that half the people that are sideways about the fact that you did the highway to hell song at the beginning they also wouldn't have a service where they talk about hell and you challenge that you don't want to go to hell and you preach the gospel as God's provision for people headed toward hell right and I think that the truth the matter is there's a whole lot of people maybe that wouldn't do that but wouldn't go as far you did the other way and really challenge people's bring a message about the reality of Hell but see what happens this guy's get hammered for going too far nobody ever gets hammered for not going far enough I want to hammer it so it's like hey you know you you did youdid highway to hell maybe that's too far but Johnny coward you know who has us there with trembling knees he can't even mention hell and some was it real and he's like I don't know it upsets people I don't know nobody's been saved since you know the first Bush was in office right it's okay because he didn't do highway to hell Brian he's got a highway to health in his church what I think about what I yeah what I think about Perry is is I think that you know proverb says where there are no ox and the stalls are clean yes so and the point is is that we he's out trying to do some things I wouldn't do some of the things he's done for sure I would not but you got to give some credit to people that are out there thinking about how some thank you thank you at least put a gold star on the chore chart he's doing something doing nothing nothing and reveling in it yeah I be never do nothing wrong here never you didn't have to say the wrong part you could have just kept with the nothing and and I don't think people see that and I don't think the dead orthodoxy is a great substitute for the fervent pursuit of lost people but I think then in this discussion we're just trying to say and I'm gonna try to say to you how far is too far I got some summary thoughts about that that we can go to in a moment but how about some input back here from look at you up there verdict how about some thoughts how about some thoughts back here on the subject who wants to go first just call it alright Matt you're on well I'd start by saying I'm a bit bitter that you put those two guys up together that really line up fairly well and then you pit verdict and I against each other like we hate each other so I can't I can't get by I've got to work through bitterness in my heart right now for I can't even address [Laughter] alright alright Platt you got something for me yeah we're not we're not gonna do I would hell why why though because the band can't play it [Laughter] [Applause] hush now hush now sold all our instruments yeah yeah yeah I know all the money went overseas we're coming to that we're coming to that don't get ahead of me come on Platt I think you and I are the same in this not at your church I think that's where to reach lost people is to exalt the glory of God the grace of God the mercy of God the wrath of God for two thousand years he has been seeking people with this gospel and he is sufficient to do it the more we put his character on display and I'm not saying Perry's not putting his character on display but the more we put his character on display and I'm done anything that would pull away from people saying his character I think the the more wise we are to trust him by his spirit to do the work of evangelism high in the church so I'm not saying that yeah no I get there he doesn't want to exalt the glory of God yeah but you just say I didn't do it when he did highway to hell I don't think that song brings particulars yes or no wait wait cuz I'm just yes or no it was a mistake well I wouldn't do it clearly right I wouldn't either Gregor well I you know I've been dive is --it --it churches where they play what we would call secular music upfront though maybe sort of semi quasi Christian ie you know a Dylan song from his Christian period or u2 songs my my thought and it was nobody he said Dylan's Christian period was like puberty and so you know when I hear that I mean I was you know I wasn't raised in the church I was raised listening to rock and roll The Beatles Led Zeppelin Jimi Hendrix all this so when I came to faith I made a clean break with it then I had to kind of come back and revisit it again and saying okay I'm speaking to my culture today can I use these things as bridge as my thought was and I'm not addressing your thing so much Barry but when I start Christians doing secular songs I just thought it was lame I thought they bands weren't as good they didn't do it as well and I'd rather just listen to you - I kind of did agree with David in that I think when we play to our strengths and our strengths our worship done right when it glorifies God I think it kind of blows a non-believer away and they kind of like what meaneth this kind of book of Acts style like what's going on here however when you look at Paul in Mars Hill he did quote their own people to build a bridge and they think there's a place for bridge building so I think we have to each decide how that's gonna be done in our culture yeah all right verdict I mean I think it's great I think it's great period did highway to hell he does the worship thing - as great as anybody and I would also say you know within that to say that there's a line that it's okay to engage culture by referencing a TV show or to say that there's a line that it's okay to engage culture by referencing sports there's a lot of US government's doing movie reviews what fresco spends half the sermons doing movie reviews go ahead finish turned away from me like you never knew me I know you ant love you cuz there's a line for every one of us none of us preaches in a cultural vacuum somewhat contingent on your culture and what's going on in your area versus Charlotte and then because I get your home school deep in the woods and they finally got the internet cable to go all the way out I'm listening like we wouldn't have done that yeah no kidding and you're churning butter it's not an issue so you you actually do have done a lot of movie reviews no I have a bike helmet as a kid I already told you I've talked to a lot of I don't watch a lot of movies yeah like for example so when did you did that Avatar movie review oh I just I ranted i rant occasionally I didn't mean like Siskel and Ebert I meant I meant you spent a full 10 or 15 minutes going over avatar and how demonic it was a blah blah blah it's the most demonic thing I've ever seen but you should watch Exorcist then here's my deal with avatar I thought it was a great movie till the Marines started losing eye I was cheering for the Marines alright I'm always cheered for the point is the point is is you're standing up in a I used to serve as stration your loot use in a service of the Church of Jesus Christ and you spend all this time going over this movie content that's a cultural connection you're known for connecting with the culture you thought that that was something that you could receive and redeem no reject I am at it like a nail okay all right but okay but you you you thought it was important enough to devote a substantive portion of a service to it everything you do is very intentional I know that about you so why do I need to sit in your church and hear this review of this movie content yeah for me I want to train my people to think or people to think as missionaries and I think today sermons are preached on television sermons are preached in music sermons are preached in film and there's a worldview there's an ideology there there's a value system there's a statement of God or Idol in all of that communication and so I want my people not to perceive it as entertainment I want them to perceive it as theology I mean III put on a Hurley sir shirt the other day and the tag said believe in yourself so my hurly sure had a doctrinal statement right right right from Genesis through thank you fall yeah and so you know for me I want it's the same thing I do with my kids we Tebow all the shows and I'll stop and hit pause and we're talking about okay kids what's going on here what's the story why every movie do we watch is the dad an idiot and the dog or the hamster saves the day why is that yeah because that's a sermon they're saying you know if if it all goes bad find the hamster he's got answers right all right so we're talking about this so sometimes I'll do the same thing in the sermon I'll talk about okay there's one ISM two ISM that was my whole sermon was theirs crater creation and there's this sort of desire to collapse all that to where pantheism pantheism one is a mone ism I'm teaching all this and yeah it's a great example all right I I did this first of all with with our kids everybody when my kids were young the thing the thing that everybody hated on was the simpsons filthy awful rotten kid dirty attitude and I first started allowing my kids to watch it then encouraging them to watch it at times almost requiring them to watch it because I saw that it was a critique of things in society and I wanted my kids to learn to think and we would talk about it I come home how was it how was the Simpsons today and my son would say well we had to turn it off dad you know certain things they weren't allowed to watch and they would they were learning to think so I by the teaching your people to think thing I understand better now why you would do that in a service but I got to say that I'm a little more sympathetic to the position of where David Platt is that that when the redeemed people of God are gathered together the purpose is not to connect people with culture to talk about what they're already Dale oozed with I think we lower the bar sometimes when we say well you know here's my plan I got that guy and thank God for that guy and I agree with you I thank God he's going to be in heaven but you know there's a lot of wacky things in the Bible that happened that people got saved through it and I'm not necessarily saying that that and I would say the end doesn't always justify the means because a lot of other people were impacted by that decision you made - not just that guy so you have to add up to totality of how everyone was impacted by that and we do yeah we do we understand that when we do that and I wasn't joking we're starting out our Easter service this year with running with a devil now and because but well it's it's a story about Barabbas and we're gonna we're gonna really talk about I get it if you want to teach the story of Barabbas why do you want people to hear that song what are you going sing here's the deal and and and Greg I would simply say that I mean I agree with you I can't stand to hear a band do a song bad but if you want to hear a song covered well you need to come to our church because our band will do it right I promise right so the quality's there that problem solve wallet ease there and that's not a cocky statement that's just a truthful statement they're gonna slay it all of us so I you know James I spent years um far from God years and nobody from the church nobody I was never invited to church when I was in school except my senior year by a guy named David that finally invited me to a Bible study because he said there were hot girls there and there were that's the best thing only reason I went and I wound up through a process coming to Christ but I but I realized how many of my friends when they walk into a church there's there's nothing for them there's nothing for them and I get it man is God sufficient yes does God's glory yes I'm there I am so there I believe when we gather together I don't think it has to be at either or weaker solution you say needs to be at both end I mean our worship time is very focused it's very intentional we focus on the glory of God we focus on the power of God we mean we do that I don't I don't say I'm not trying to throw the baby out with a bath water I am all about the glory of God I was so I was so sinful and His grace was so poured out on me and it brought me so far I mean I am covered under the grace when we sing about that I'm there but oh gee Jesus was a storyteller Jesus was engaging Jesus didn't go if you open your Bibles to Isaiah chapter 61 you're gonna see extra genetically that it out today sin you know there's a guy one time he had some seed and everybody's going and he threw some seed out nearly a third you know what happened to me - one time well you know like it or not it's a story that's a secular song and that's I just you know James I'm just trying to be more like Jesus all right so just so I just so I can be clear about this you're you're saying that you agree with the doxological ultimate purpose the church I wanna know why don't you just say 790 oh my SAT James I know I know I think this peri-peri does that aw shucks thing really well does as a church of what how many thousands of thousands are being under sin South Carolina James you say that you say that you agree that everything is for God's glory and I got to hear you say this so you believe that playing that song this Easter that you're gonna play that that's like I'm furthermore when a person's up there on your worship team gifted or not and they're up there sing I want to try to imagine this now they're singing I'm on that I mean are they singing that are they a spirit-filled are they singing it in the flesh are they actually wrestling because the guys that originally did it to do it right you got to be pretty excited about getting to hell yeah I mean I you know who knows I would say this about our worship leaders I would believe they're all spirit-filled but they all have a greater goal in mind the purpose is not let's do this song to impress people let's do this song to grab people's attention to pull them into a place where we're alternately going to get them to the Word of God where they can hear the word of God and all the service works together to pull somebody's heart in where they can ultimately meet Jesus all right texted question and either one of you can respond to this because I find that you're probably pretty supportive of this too texted question would the guy in Perris Church have come to know Christ that Sunday even if he hadn't done the song I would help you know I'm a Calvinist yeah so yeah duck duck dam you know it's gonna work itself out I mean yeah so the guy would have come to Christ with or without the song yeah I mean I you know I like Greg Laurie you make an invitation the elect respond that's where I'm at theologically so would the guy yes but the thing of it is to what I see even as a reformed yet the song healthcare didn't help well its first its Romans 9 through 11 you know that God's gonna save all the elect and he does it through sending messengers who are gonna do a lot of work to get to those people so God's sovereign over the ends and he's sovereign over the means I believe in bone so would the guy I've ultimately got saved but he's not sovereign over the means to the point where any means I choose he is published by God chose to use that service that moment to regenerate and so far as we I'm not not used an ask to speak to but I don't think people come back at me with well God used a donkey and I'm like okay well then you're doing the same thing to me that you're saying I'm doing with Isaiah he cannot control himself it's like funny line seriously funny funny finish what you finished what you were gonna say no that's all I was gonna say is is is that's the one that people go to that verse and they go well God use the donkey to know if the donkey comes on your stage and talks noon and there and I'm like you know that's the that's the only verse you got God can use any means to redeem people it's just we I mean and that's the other thing though James that's the other thing we really do have a heart when we get together we don't just get together and go how can we piss a lot of people off I know highway to hell that'll do it I mean we pray we seek the Lord we're asking we're begging for his direction it's not just me going I think I got a good shock effect thing this Easter it's we really come together with a purpose of what do we really feel that God wants us to do in the service so if I get it wrong if one day I stand before the Lord I have it wrong I had it wrong because I wanted to reach people for Jesus okay I really want that but I don't believe I'm wrong okay yeah I know so let me just say then that first of all I don't think that either one of you or any of you like Steven or whatever who would do this I don't think your motives are in question and I don't think we should allow people to question the motives of our brothers the Bible's pretty clear when Jesus said don't judge that's what he was talking about we have to judge actions we're all called the judge actions all the time well we don't judge the part that only god can judge which is a person's heart so I just want to say to you if I have judged your heart in that regard I want to just say I'm sorry for that no it's wrong to judge a person's heart in the matter but you also can't allow a person to retreat to motive as well hey I meant well we got to do better than mean well we got to do right right and what what I struggle with getting away from the illustrations or the examples I struggle with the idea that the pathway for this lost person far from God to come to God is that I need to show them I need to build a bridge that shows them that the church understands their culture that they that I'm going to be like the world to reach the world that I'm going to show them that that I understand stuff that's worldly to that sort of build the bridge to show them that I relate to that I just don't I struggle with that I mean we train our missionaries to go overseas and do that very thing well first complain our missionaries go over there study the culture and become live among the people the most effective missionaries live among the PA so they so they learn their culture right they learn their culture and then they use that culture to bring those people in we they said we sent them overseas we call it godly we do it in America we call it compromise there's a double standard right so let me speak to that I don't disagree at all I don't disagree at all that we need to know and understand our culture I think I've got quotes here of things that you said go to the mall I study the culture I learned the culture I want to know what's going on I'm a 100% on that my struggle with and I'm trying to advance my own understanding in this conversation what I struggle with is now that I have studied and learned the culture I must bring the culture to my service and I must execute the culture in front of the people I'm trying to reach as a way of showing them that I've done my homework that's the part I'm struggling with not the fact that missionaries learn culture or that we understand ours not that it's I must enculturate the culture into my evangelistic effort let's see you're beginning with this presumption that your church culture is pure water and now you're bringing in no I know I don't think that I notice I've got every kind of person in my church that week but I'm the one who's choosing the content that's gonna go on the table alright and I mean I could we could rattle off here for 40 minutes verses in scripture about I will do all things to the glory of God and and the message of Highway to Hell is blatantly offensive it is demonic and affront to the glory of God and the power of the gospel and I suppose I think that song can be used to the glory of God obviously it was I mean I will disagree with that I will stand by I mean I do because I was there I know you believe it I will say that that's not saying you don't believe it I'm just saying you're wrong I'm saying yeah well I'm saying you're wrong because you all you saw was the video clip you didn't I mean go watch the whole message and then we can have a conversation I didn't I'm just saying God wasn't up in heaven going wow we're gonna really be able to reach some people today were singing highway to hell that's what I've been waiting family waiting for my boys to get some of it I've been waiting for my boys to get some evil music into our service so we could finally reach something you call that music evil so you're the judge of I'm gonna tell you that the song highway to hell is a lot of people glorying in the fact we hear it all the time from people we reach and it's not like we're not reaching people about there's a thousand people more every year but I'll tell you what they don't but here's what they say okay I can't wait to get the hell man it's gonna be a lot better than heaven we're gonna stand around and shake hands and have a beer together and Highway to Hell is a message about people glorying in the fact that there's no consequence for rejecting the love of God shown in the cross and I find it blatantly offensive to bring that content into a word into a service in the name of reaching people as though somehow performing culture is gonna give God a leg up salvation is from the Lord right foolish I completely agree with that I'm gonna start saying a lot of things that you and I Namath you're here because we agree about a law I agree with all that ultimately he used that song to bring somebody into the kingdom uh listen listen I've heard what you said about that ultimately I think that song was redeemed in that moment used for the of God you would obviously never do it at your church I did will agree to disagree on that point and we'll all worship together in heaven praise God have for real right I totally buy that but I think that song was redeemed I think we redeemed that song and we're gonna redeem running with the devil on Easter this year it's gonna be awesome you think you are no we are I know we are anyone else on this point I think they really want you to go to the next question yeah I hear all that okay you don't care no I don't care we we I probably land more with Platt and Greg on this we wouldn't we wouldn't do but that the other thing I would say why not do why not do I think he's really making me think I got to say that I mean he's really making me think and what I really want to say I respect about him he's not so you've got to hear this this is not some dopey guy sitting in a corner trying to act cool he has a strategy it's thought through he believes that honors God he doesn't think he's compromising in any way like he is on it with a passion and a reason and defending it toe to toe alright I just hate this idea that somehow like Mark said like we're sort of or maybe it was Stephen that said it that we're sort of stupid over here we're not really thinking things through as good as you guys were thinking it through he's thought it through very carefully you have to you wouldn't do it why we wouldn't do it we're um two reasons one one would be probably my own flesh I think I would do that if I did something like that be more trying to give a finger to that kind of fundamentalist tight yeah yeah you'd be jamming people like we can do whatever we want be my be my flesh and and I wonder sometimes in things like this how much that's planning because we're not just products of today we're products of yesterday and a lot of us grew up in a real tight yesterday and when that door swings open I mean we want to run man we want to go we've been in this friggin cage for two decades of you know you can't watch the rated-r movie unless it is about Jesus you can't and on and on and on I go and then the secular sacred divide and then that door swings open for us and then if we're not careful then we fly into license we fly into this place where all things are permissible and beneficial and that's not true and so I wonder how much of that plays into this and it's hard hard for me to see in my heart at times what's what but secondly men I i I've seen an overwhelming response just to the idea of the transcendence of God the holiness of God the weight of God and and I don't I think it is a song that's celebrating you know screw you God we don't need you right cuz our things gonna be better now I had I had saved praise God but there's a guy saved you know because his mom was killed in a car accident but I don't wanna start that ministry right now right we had we had the original version of the video that we showed at the beginning of this conference the original script had the word in it in the comment section and had the word heretics in it it said you know why would you have that heretic in here I don't know if they were talking about mark or platter I don't know they're probably mark I don't care I don't care I don't care here here's what I'll tell you I will not I do not have ears to hear my brother called a heretic all right I will defend my brother's motives I understand now better in certain instances his actions I will I do not have ears to hear that okay that that raises something up in me that I would not allow that to be said not even in jest or anything and in to me personally I would never allow something that so defames the glory of God and the reputation of Jesus I would not allowed on my service unclean I would not allow I'm asking this so I mean in and I wouldn't do we wouldn't I wouldn't do this all right but I know and love Perry and I totally is a friend and so do you think is this an issue where you say well it's contextual disagreement you know his conscience is at one place as cultures in one place - at another or do you think it was a sin against God no I think that you know James says if you know to do good and you don't do it at sin I believe that I hope that this conversation is gonna illuminate all of us to the different actions that we choose and I'm going to share a summary about it in a moment but I don't doubt his motives and I definitely don't think it was sinful for him to do it and I agree with him that because God knows their heart because the song was only one part of a whole service I I think that what he did later was a lot more powerful and a lot more impactful and God was pleased to use that and God apparently wasn't so grieved by the opening thing that he sort of said I'm not going this week all right so I believe I believe that he's right in saying that whatever it was God was at work in the service I don't doubt that at all I guess let's go to a different illustration unless we found this one nail the whole time as though it's the only example I just want to say I do want to say this though it's I don't I don't want people to think that every week we're opening up with Highway to Hell and hells bells we have done hells bells too we had fire anyway but we don't we don't I mean we when we do it it's thought about it sprayed through we really do as a team seek the Lord we started our Christmas service this year with oh holy night now nobody got pissed off about that but that's what we started is you believe that it's helpful but what I'm saying is is that I you know many other examples could be given the frankness with which you talk about sexuality in the service and and things like that yeah I here's here's here's my thought on the subject for what it's worth and and I'm already really instructed by this and I'm frankly not surprised but I'm blessed by the sincerity and the intentionality with which you're doing the things that you're doing like I'm instructed by that I'm gonna have to think about that some more my perspective is this if it doesn't adorn the gospel all right and by adorn the gospel I mean it's the beauty of Christ that is at stake in everything we do the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ Corinthians says we all with unveiled faces are beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord and our bae daily being changed into that image and i don't believe that doing music or but i think the points well-taken which would include quoting videos or showing video clips or quoting movies i think that it's hypocrisy to say one's okay and the other isn't but i'll say and you gotta wrestle with this yourself we all do every time we plan a service not just Easter obviously if it doesn't adorn the beauty of God's great son if it doesn't display him and show him off you know Corinth first Corinthians says that the powerful most powerful evangelistic thing that happens is is that when uninformed or unbelievers come in they're convinced and persuaded by what God is doing in the midst they fall down and report that God is truly among you it's the manifest presence of God in the service which is the powerful life-changing element and I don't believe I believe that if it doesn't adorn the gospel it doesn't advance the gospel we may see fruit from some fruit from it whether the fruit remains you'll like you said that'll God will have to determine that but I believe that if it doesn't adorn the gospel if it doesn't display the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ we may draw we may draw people with it we may draw decisions with it we don't always calculate the impact that that's making on other people in the church as though the only agenda was a lost person there and I'll just say that the simply as I know how in summary I don't think that I do think that if it doesn't adorn the gospel it doesn't advance the gospel can I say what let me the the I completely agree with you I think the point that we're disagreeing on I think the major point that what I'm feeling is I think it was used to adorn and and and be used to advance the gospel because the song was redeemed yeah that's I think that's I think there are I'm gonna just say then I'm really blessed by you right now because you're on this point we've never discussed this and on this point you're thinking is a lot different than I thought it was gonna be you're you're you really thought I think you're wrong about it but you really have thought it through it wasn't some random casual act as you said we prayed on this it wasn't dismissive and we all have things that were blind to in our churches we all have things that we don't see clearly I don't want to sit here and tell you that I see everything clearly at my church or that you don't see things clearly at your church I'm just gonna stand on that point that I believe in I'm glad you do agree with that we all have to wrestle at this point if it doesn't make Jesus more beautiful to people it's not advancing our mission if it's not elevating God and God's glory and God's great son then it's not advancing the mission and and I really struggle with this idea that to be that in order to connect people with Christ you have to be like them that I gotta become like them to reach them is something that I'm just not there yet that's just that's what Jesus did you know that would take another session all right fantastic wrap it up let's go to Jeff thanks Perry thanks mark

Channel: Good Conversations

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Id: 1lqjuEV1084

Length: 47min 25sec (2845 seconds)

Published: Thu Nov 28 2019