Elephant Room Round 2 | Session 4 | Mark Driscoll and T.D. Jakes (2012)

[Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Applause] well welcome back to session for the elephant room this sessions called Ticket to Ride and it's about the importance of sound doctrine I have here an old friend and a new friend and I gotta just tell you both I had no idea when I was getting into and I decided to bring you both into this situation but I trust the Lord and everything I just had no idea how difficult and complicated it was to get people together in a room and talk frankly I'm embarrassed that it shouldn't be that hard but it has been hard and and and but we're still going to do it and you this book on marriage or they veiled about marriage apparently the whole thing's about sex and I endorsed it and now it's going it's going all over the country I mean I mean I had to hire full-time assistant to handle the hate mail that's flowing from the book you wrote and and then over on this side I I hear the man preach I hear him preach the gospel I hear him preach the Word of God I'm like I love that guy want to get to know that guy and then all of a sudden I invited him everybody like you're making the biggest mistake your life and on and on and on it goes you know what let's talk we just talk and let's talk about this this book you wrote let's talk about what you believe let's listen to each other let's model grace and truth mark I'll let you go first what the heck my wife Grace and I we got 20 year anniversary coming up we wrote a book the first half is on marriage and we deal a lot with friendship and repentance of sin and then the second half is on sex and we deal with porn and sexual assault which is part of her story helping abuse for 3 G's sex is gross got her gift so it's either gross dirty nasty vile and wrong so save it for the one you left that you know kind of the youth group line and then it's God you know we worship but it's everything it's our identity or it's a gift that God gives with certain biblical restrictions that a couple is to enjoy and steward well it's not that a problem well you know some people they have a lot of free time and it's it's you know I mean you could read a book about friendship with your wife and sex and like go work on those things or write a blog about those things and I I would rather go work on those things just yeah thanks throwing it out there no for real for real so the people that are most upset are upset because they're not well sometimes those who are very liberal think we're too conservative you notice we say sex outside of marriage is a sin and pornography is a sin and things of that kind and then those who are very very conservative think we're too liberal because we we talked about sex in the way that the Bible does and so over here the National Organization and women's upset at you because you're you're you believe that men should lead their home and all the rest of that and all the feminist crowds pounding you from one side and over here the people who oh I just I don't think I can even walk through that meadow without tripping so so yeah so just want you know I've been sharing in that with you and how do you handle the criticism and the harshness and how do you manage that in your life um you know I honestly I want to be humble I want to grow in humility I want to learn I want to turn my critics into coaches I want to see okay I could have said that better I could have done that better but at the end of the day I believe that it's a great book I don't recant or you know rescind what we said or believe and and our goal is not to win an argument but to help some people thank you well you know I love what you wrote that's why I endorsed it I knew this was coming but I want to give you a chance to speak to it and I think you are helping a lot of people and sometimes that's hardened that's the price you pay to make an impact in this world I guess all right apparently and I'm so I apologize in advance for putting you through the indignity of this but apparently there's been some confusion about some things that you believe in and I just love to give you an opportunity to share your heart and we're here to listen and hear what you do believe oddly enough my situation is not that different from his because I didn't get the sex part sorry oh you're good my father was Methodist my mother was about this my father's family was method as far back as I could remember I was raised in the Baptist Church and but and I was raised in church but I really didn't have a real committed experience with Christ until my father died when my father died I had a real experience with Christ and a real conversion in Christ and and I had it in a oneness church and by oneness meaning for those who don't know all the theological terms well it would be like explain it would be like it was not a UPC church in spite of the blogs out there it was not a UPC church but somewhat similar is only modalism Jesus not only mobile living but you still a theological term that's why I did usually become still in theological term but but the Christians say or Christians believe in Jesus Christ the levy dad rose from the dead coming back again all the same things that you do Pentecostal Christians about structure but then how they describe and explain the Godhead in a traditional oneness sense it's very very different from how traditional Trinitarians described the gospel and I was in in that church and raised in that church for a number of years and my problem with it as I began to go on and that's God begin to develop my ministry I started preaching from that from that church and from that pulpit and that sort of thing but I'm also informed by the infiltration of my Baptist experience and my method of experience so I ended up like meth about the costal in a way you know so I'm kind of like a mixed breeds if I'm here okay and and what I begin to find out it is easy to throw rocks of people that you don't know but the more you really get to know them and see Christ's work in their lives regardless of their belief system you begin to try to be a bridge builder and the reason I would say that I'm similar to you only in this aspect when you try to build bridges between people have been fighting for hundreds of years hundreds of years before you ever even got in the discussion there's a no laddie since if he who stands in the middle of the road gets hit by both sides right I know as I begin to progress and I begin to and that some of the dogma that I was taught was in the one this movement was very dogmatic and very narrow and really not the best description of how I now understand the Godhead I still did not want to switch teams and start throwing rocks back across the street because much of what we do today is teach people to take sides but I believe we're called if the body of Christ to reconcile wherever possible all right but before we even get into and I think what you're leading us into is wise and helpful and it reflects why we're here how we relate to people who differ is on subject but before I even go to that I'd love to give you an opportunity to just like there were some particular scriptures that began to inform you you began to move and develop and what you personally believed I like to just where you articulate that not my struggle and that will ordain and consecrate it in in the one this church was in several passages sometimes the doctor fits sometimes it doesn't and when the doctrine becomes a primary thing you force it into fitting places where it doesn't fit I really at this point in my life don't want to force my theology to fit within my denomination I'm open to hear whatever God is saying Jesus about ties to the Jordan River for example coming up out of the water the Holy Spirit descends like and of the Father speaks from heaven and we see all three of them in one occasion or in Genesis let us make man in our own likeness or Elohim then he is the one God who manifested itself in a plurality of ways or when Jesus says I am in the father and the father is in me and the understanding or attempting to understand that and and what that begins to make me rethink some of my idea than some of the things that I was taught I got kind of quiet about it for a while because when you're a leader and you're in a position of authority sometimes you have to back up and pilot for a minute and really think those things through and I began to realize that there aren't some things that could be said about the father they could not be said about the son that there are distinctives between the working of the Holy Spirit and the moving on the Holy Spirit and and the working of the redemptive work of Christ I'm very comfortable with that you and I have talked to Jack Graham and I have talked there is very little difference in what I believe and and and what you believe but but here is where I find the problem I don't think anything that any of us believes fully describes who God is and and if we would ever humble down to admit that we and our finite minds cannot fully describe an infinite God no I I can I have it perfectly figured out I have it I have it all down perfectly so I me doesn't it doesn't the concept even insult you yeah well there we also would agree in the nature of God there's mystery and and it's like a dimmer switch you know how much certainty how much mystery thank you but within that Bishop Jake's for you you know the issue between trinitarianism and modalism at its essence is one God manifesting himself successively in three ways or one God three persons simultaneously listing eternally so your best understanding now and I understand there is some mystery for sure would you say it's one God manifesting himself in three ways or one God in three persons but I believe that that neither one of them totally get it for me but I think the latter one it's where I spend today had three persons no one God three persons one God three persons and here here is why I am there I'm not crazy about the word persons and this is most people who know me know that that it's really my doctrinal statement is no different from yours except for the environment manifest into manifest instead of persons which you described as motorless and I'll describe as Pauline when I read let me show you what I'm saying but I read when I read first Timothy 3:16 I didn't create this motorless didn't and without controversy which I think we have we have bickered about something that is what Paul describes a mystery and I don't think we should do that and without controversy great is the mystery of godliness so God was manifest in the flesh now Paul is not a motorist but he does not think that it is robbery to the Deveny God to think God was manifest in the flesh and I think if maybe the semantics could be this way or that way but Paul says is before this fight ever starting he's better off ago so God was manifest in the flesh justified in the spirit seen of angels preached unto the Gentiles believed on in the world and received up into glory now now when we start talking about that sort of thing III think that it is important that we realize that there are distinctives between the father and the working of the son father didn't believe father didn't die only in the person of Jesus Christ coming back for us in the person of Jesus Christ Jesus Christ has been with us but only indwells us through the person of the Holy Spirit we are baptized into the body of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit I don't think any of that is objection or between any of the three of us so far so that is consistent with my belief system yeah I know I know I'm with you I have been with you I teach preach that all the time there are many people within and outside of quote/unquote denominations at our label oneness that would describe that the same way there are some that would not but when we get to know people by their labels then then then comes all the baggage of how we define that label and and we miss man it's almost like your typical ideologies we have about races we have those ideas about denominations and movements the reason I applauded what you said earlier about people who are have dual affiliations we are taught in our society that if we disagree with any movement we leave and sever we sever everything every you know oh you said so I might disagree with we fall out with them and walk away I still have fellowship association rule of relationships and positions within and without oneness and Trinitarian movements because I believe that until we reach the gap between our thinking and humble both sides and say we are both attempting to describe God we love that we serve and that we have not seen and that we are viewing him through the context the scriptures but that with the glass darkly why should I fall out and hate and throw names at you when all that I know and understand be it very Orthodox if still through a glass darkly and then face to face none of our books none of our books about the Godhead or anything else will be on sale in heaven right right you know why because we're only authorities down here with our little kingdoms in this world I think it's so important that we realize that our God is behind our intellect and if you can define him and completely describe him and say you are the end all definition of who God is then he ceases to be God now because the reason poverty the mystery is that we defy the fact that God does things that don't fit our formulas and because people's formulas and understandings of a description of an invisible God differ it doesn't make them demonic all right but let me jump in here um I want to say a couple things one thank you for joining us shoot you don't have to be here I mean you you were on the cover of Time magazine do you have options this isn't your biggest gig ever and it takes a lot of courage and humility that's in an unscripted situation and to end to be outside of your normal tribe and have it and the fact that you showed up to dinner last night I was I was shocked as a TD jakes is coming to dinner I'm like how do you get on that card it was so fun we I loved you I enjoyed you I really appreciate it hearing your story of your family and context and your upbringing in and and walked away going and I really appreciate getting to meet and know and enjoy that man so thank you for being gracious thank you for being courageous and thank you for being humble and I think it might be helpful because you're coming out of one this background and out of a different context than a lot of us are you've demonstrated humility saying I've been studying the Bible and I'm I'm even changing some thinking as I'm you know studying a lot of pastors will just defend their first position to the data rather than humbly reconsidering it biblically maybe to help others understand you on the flip side have you been treated or what is the response been from some who were friends that you don't want to throw rocks at but because of your transition of this looks worried about this really funny to me are you the heretic to them oh very much so in many circles you very much so that even if you do write I couldn't say that but I meant it so true so much [Applause] all the while I'm getting beat all of the head in in some of these new circles because they define me by where I've been many of the circles that I came from would never allow me in their pulpit because they consider me heir to it so I'm I have to read the article to see which heretic I am we'd be honored if you come be with us and let's all grow together okay that would be great yeah but but but I think the time has come for us to be willing to take the heat to have a conversation because if if we do not do this and we continue to divide ourselves by ourselves and compare ourselves with ourselves we do it at the expense of decreasing numbers of new Christians in our country we have to mobilize this just for your consideration this is the only thing that Jesus prayed that we can answer he did not he only prayed father I pray that they may be one even as you and I are also one and this is the one thing that is within our power to answer a fact and we do not do can I ask a couple quick questions and then we could do whatever you want right do you believe this is the perfect inspired final authority Word of God absolutely so you believe there's one God three persons Father Son and spirit you believe Jesus was fully God fully man absolutely he believed he died on the cross in our place for our sins Subsidy you believe he bodily rose from death absolutely you believed that he is the judge of the living in the dead yes and you believe that apart from Jesus there's no salvation absolutely just that was crazy I'm telling you and I just want to say this I am so weary of people thinking you know what they don't know I think you you honor us and you humble us a man of your stature and commitment to the gospel and fruitfulness would come and sit in this room and let me and you ask him what he believed you know like he's getting baptized yeah yeah we got we got we got a one a battery a - a battery and and a whole nuclear power plant thank you just say this I think you've honored us and you've shown immense humility and I want to be in the world where I believe that Jesus Christ stands and he's told us again and again he stands with the humble get to those people who love my son who believed my word who express humility and and I'm honored to hear what you've said I want to just say further mark if I could contribute to this that I feel deeply in my heart that God is both three and one three and one I believe the scripture is very clear when we get to heaven we're gonna see Jesus the only begotten Son who's in the bosom of the Father he has declared him Jesus is the only God we will ever see when I was studying revelation last year I was struck by the number of times that I saw in the book of Revelation that it almost seems in the text like the father and the son are on the same throne and when I start to think about this I believe in God eternally existing in three persons but the more I think about it the more I feel like my head's going to explode and I get a little weary of people who feel that they need to erase mystery and replace it with certainty as a test of Orthodoxy if what we have heard today doesn't satisfy then the person is unsayable I'm ready to move on to a new subject I believe that very strongly you know let me just make one little comment one of the things that you said down at the end even as we talked about it before and I've heard Jack Graham saying this too there is gonna be one thrown and there's gonna be one god that we can see and I thought the more I hear everybody argue about this we're almost like saying the same thing and we like sight about it to the death and I just think in the world that we're living in today if if we could connect and I'm there will always be detractors and there will always be people who define themselves by their differences rather than their connections who who are more comfortable with being known about what they are a gift and what they are for but when you when I hear you say that there's gonna be one throne and one god on that throne and I'm not so leaps in celebration and I hear both of us stumbling trying to explain how God does what he does like he does I think I think that stumbling is worship I think that stumbling is worship I think the fact that we would humble ourselves and say then your thoughts and ways are beyond human comprehension it's what makes worship fill a room see Jake's where are you here something even trying to figure that on itself you know I love people I love people I believe that I really love people and my heart yearns to see us know each other not about this theologies hold on but you know you can listen mm my tapes and never hear me address this one way this is the big issue to my critics it's not a big issue to me in the sense I understand where I'm an ID came tell you where I'm at but there are so many reasons in our contemporary society for us to come away from race to come away from denomination and stop allowing other people to tell us who each other is if we don't do better at communication as a society we will not survive the loss of civility amongst us within and without of the church it's killing our nation it's killing our church it's killing our culture we have got to learn to talk to each other or we're going to die BAM as is the case in every session we have good men who are sitting in and listening and I don't want to feel the profit from them in this regard so I'm gonna ask you to combine your comments really to about 60 seconds and be as concise as you can I'm going to start with you Pastor Graham and I'm gonna go around this way I really want to hear from you you've been listening and what's on your heart to say Jack well not you know I've been friends with the Bishop Jake's for the last 10 years we started praying together in a public forum to unite our church we're gonna talk a little bit more about that when we get to the race question but I found in him over these years the consistency and what he has said and who he is and what he believes and that's why it's been amazing to me that these questions keeps coming up so I hope that for anyone who wants to listen that this puts to rest a lot of this jive that's going on about about this Trinitarian issue and it's my prayer that I mean I you know I agree when we see God we see Jesus and you're not gonna see three gods and I'm gonna have the Holy Spirit dancing around over here and God the Father there and Jesus there we know the language of Jesus at the right hand of the Father we know that's language but there is one God he has given himself in three essential eternal persons and so I'm grateful that we had this discussion I'm grateful James that you were willing as well to take a stand to allow this conversation to take place thank you we're gonna go to Crawford now yeah I there's so many things bubbling in my heart over this I think the one line Bishop that you just said is that we need to stop letting people tell us who we are and to engage that one of my concerns for the last five six years has been the the subtle ways in which we justify slander the very subtle ways in which we give credence to it in the name of intellectual insight or we prostitute the word discernment and in these kinds of things and we feel so free to draw conclusions on people without talking to them that's it talking to them and and doing it in a spirit of love and compassion and clarity and I I'm just I'm just rejoicing and I just pray that the 70 cities and all of us in here will take an amazing lesson from the exchange amen amen Pastor Steven yeah thank you guys you're modeling something for a 31 year old pastor that I hope will get really in my soul and help me learn how to do this thing well so thank you for that I guess my hope is that nobody that's watching or participating in this will think that now we put individuals one by one by one by one and bring them all into a room and make sure they line up with us I hope that what Bishop Jake's has done and what you've done Pastor James will expose a pattern and that we won't think Wow okay so Bishop Jake's is all right with us because that's not the goal of this that's me I would say Bishop Jake's is a great man of God and I would hope that this would lead us to assume the best when we can't hear from someone because everyone's not going to be able to appear in this forum and everybody's not going to be able to articulate as well as he does so my hope would not only be in terms of how we feel about each other but that it would represent something that we would do at first Corinthians 13 says and that we would put into practice that love is going to believe the best that it's going to always hope and always protect so more of what I'm praying for has less to do with Bishop Jake's because I knew he was the baddest preacher in the land I've never had I hope that that maybe this will send a message and the Spirit of it will permeate the way we feel about about about everyone that we don't get the chance to know and then he would never think that we would have a checklist that we check to say well he's alright I think the goal is love right microcosm here needs to be an example of what should happen in a macro way and that the world war two was not won by the United States it was by the Allied forces and though we didn't agree completely with the policies of Italy or the policies of Australia or Canada we had to join up to win the war and these are the last days we can't afford divisions or restraint over gnats and swallow camels this is the last days and we've got to put all of those aside for a greater purpose and that's to move the kingdom for don't miss that otherwise we'll get caught up in the small stuff and miss the war there's something ahead of us that we've got to accomplish keep our eyes on that alright let me try to let me try to just pull this together as we can it's been a great session it's exceeded my expectations I appreciate everybody's willing to dialogue I'm I'm really humbled by all of it let me say a couple of things the issue of the Trinity is not a small thing that that's not something to that we're knitting about it's a real important point it's central to Christianity it is a a pillar of Orthodoxy however when a man confesses his trinitarianism is he Trinitarian enough and step away from me on that all right that's when we begin to me to get into more of the nuance what do you believe about the gifts and how Trinitarian are you what do you believe about the role of women that's when we need to turn down as you set the rhetoric and and let a man's confession let a man's fruitfulness speak for itself I'm edified by the importance of the conversation and I would just like to reiterate the theme that you've talked about the theme that you've talked and and here's a couple things 6,000 churches in North America closed their doors every year all right 3,500 Americans leave the church every day and I don't mean lead the church to go across down to the other church I mean I'm done with this all right a less than 20% of Americans attend church regularly only 15% of churches in the US are growing numerically only 15% and only 2% of those are growing by conversion growth we have a massive problem the Church of Jesus Christ in North America is hemorrhaging all right it is in a freefall we will be and and some of these successful churches can cause us to be confused about the true state of things and Steven Furtick baptizing a lot of people that's not going on like it is at Mars Hill the church is in a freefall it's hemorrhaging massively we need to wake up and figure out that the constant negative destructive rhetoric is hurting the church is not helping it Jesus was fairly clear about this they'll all know that you're my disciples if you love each other that's the ball I'm trying to carry down the field today I'm glad that you're all my brothers and I hope that this has been a session that has taken the cause of Christ forward all right let's go forward together [Applause]

Channel: Good Conversations

Views: 180,114

Rating: 4.7761931 out of 5

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Id: Jb5CuacvkEU

Length: 30min 25sec (1825 seconds)

Published: Sat Nov 30 2019