Elephant Room Round 1 | Session 1 | Matt Chandler and Steven Furtick (2011)

[Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] well that is a long introduction to a pretty normal thing which is brothers getting together and talking about stuff and I think really the genesis of this whole concept is the idea that some of the best things that happen at a conference is the conversations backstage we had dinner last night didn't take us long to get stuff rattling around and I really have gleaned a lot from my conversations through the years with brothers that love the Lord believe the gospel stand on the Word of God and so we're gonna try to have some of those conversations today and I want to acknowledge that the outset that some of the positions that we're gonna describing or even maybe caricatures of how you feel but they're certainly on the right target if we're not on the bullseye and we want you to early on to represent those positions let's exchange let's talk let's grow let's learn from each other and let's model what it means for iron to sharpen iron and brothers to make each other better alright and we had a good conversation last night even about brothers and how they kind of argue and go at it alright so we're gonna do that right now and here are those I like I don't like signals work and let's have another little test on that like don't like how do you think I'm doing so far okay Perry likes it Driscoll's out on me okay that's I'm sorry to hear that I'm sorry to hear that as my brothers would say I expected that and alright so Stephen we're gonna have you go first and you got a heart for lost people you're passionate about sharing the gospel and and winning people make the case for that's the purpose the weekend serve is gonna reach people far from God let's hear it well in general before I make the case that that's the purpose of the weekend service I mean we're talking in a larger way about what the mission of Jesus was to seek and save that which is lost Luke 19:10 and then also that Jesus came not for the healthy but for the sick and so we take something broad like that and then we narrow it down to say what is the weekend worship experience for but I can't isolate that out because I teach my church that our mission is to not only to reach lost people but to exist for the world right our church exists so that we can accomplish the mission of Jesus in the earth and I take a statement like that that everyone agrees on and then I say our weekend worship experience is going to in large part and really primarily have a hyper focus for that purpose and then people start bringing this this this paradigm to bear that that now I'm not preaching the word I'm not feeding the flock here that oh yeah but you know what the thing is I - I listened to Chandler preach every chance I get and I hear a guy who's trying to teach his church that we should be about mission we should be about others we don't exist for ourselves as individuals or as a body and we're not here to entertain you and that's the same thing I'm saying to my church when I say we exist to reach people far from God we exist to reach lost people and so for instance right now I'm preaching through the book of Ephesians I'm gonna walk through of Ephesians and I'm tying it in with certain things from the Old Testament about the promised land and I'm equated spiritual promises you know Ephesians 1:3 every spiritual blessing in Christ to the the promised land that God gave to his people in the Old Testament and so I'm preparing a sermon on eight verses from Ephesians this week and I think you loved it and I think you think it's a great sermon started doing that because you're coming to this conference [Laughter] get up off me because I preach Ephesians and that is that is the misnomer and it is a caricature and to get up here and say okay Chandler represents building the attendees Furtick represents building the attendance of course you want to be on the side of that that's about building people my whole life - about building people I don't know about that but no I I think I'm not sure that I would just be like oh I want to be about building people everyone agrees I think what you're doing is amazing I mean you've had 10,000 people profess faith in Christ in your new church in five years I think as nobody can touch that all right the baptism is full every single week you are reaching people far from God and I don't think you should have to just sort of say well you know I mean you know people don't know you went to Southern Seminary you can handle the word there's no question about that but your contribution is people far from God right and you're like you're like fired up about that people far from God so you make it attendance and then you D personalize it yeah you just want to draw a crowd and that's what a lot of guys who are very evangelistically passion get pigeonholed into is just want your seats full and so people say dumb stuff about well you know if I wanted to draw crowd I start a fight in the target parking lot and that'll draw a crowd so a crowd doesn't measure anything and so if you if you if you make this thing about Chandler builds people Furtick builds crowds which ones better we all are in this for people any of us with a good everybody you've invited here today we're in this for people my contention is that without a hyper focus on reaching people far from God staying on mission our church turns into this feed me bless me if you can club and none of us want to pass their churches like that Chandler is the strongest I've ever heard about rebuking that mindset in his own church right so you know my times up alright sweet okay what I've seen and in my fear with this evangelism first type of mindset is but really I'd go back to Jesus and and then I think we can go into some other places but we've only got four minutes so I'll I don't know we'll be able to do you know you've got Jesus and in Matthew 13 parable of the sower right he throws out the seed this is what the kingdom of God is like and and that some of that seed falls on good soil and but some of that seed falls on on rocky soil and and it sprouts up it receives it it loves it but then as soon as it's not convenient it's gone and and so my fear I mean I guess an illustration would be a baby breastfeeding is cute a 20 year old breastfeeding is disturbing one's legal and one's illegal right right and and so and in it well I guess at that never mind that that was filter caught that thank God and so in in the end my fear of this evangelism first mindset is that you've got a 40 year old man breastfeeding plant playing in the kiddie pool who knows nothing of the ocean nothing of the depths and and I've seen life just kick people in the soul who haven't developed really the depth of knowledge in regards to the character of God and who God is and and so that my fear is when it's evangelism only our goal here our job here's evangelism only is that you're in the end if you're four people you're not doing them a service it's going to go bad and that if you you to further the character it almost becomes you want to reach people or do you want to be doctrinal yeah yeah you know which do you want to be like you have to choose one of those and so I you're in you're in Ephesians I mean Ephesus is the church to look at Ephesus is founded in acts 20 booms nobody's seen anything like Ephesus right a riot starts Paul says after two years no one in Asia had not heard the the gospel made in church day one blew it up now in in that he comes back after this riot because people who were making money off of sinful gain couldn't make money anymore he comes back and he tells the Ephesian elders look I'm you're not gonna see me again I gotta go die but just know this fierce wolves are coming ferocious wolves are coming and some of you are those wolves and and then if you go to the book at Ephesus I mean you're preaching through Ephesians right now Ephesians one through three who the believer is in Christ you know Ephesians three through six the the behavior of the believer in Christ all right very Pauline you know gospel first then how that gospel flexes itself out then if you go to a first and second Timothy so Timothy who is now the elder in Ephesus is being told by Paul guards your doctrine watch your dachshund doctrine preach the Word of God faithfully Paul even says to the Ephesian elders I preached you the whole counsel of God I am innocent of your blood in any way but you're gonna watch the you're gonna watch is that my time or a minute okay you're gonna watch you're gonna watch in the end Ephesus died in in Rev relation chapter two so you've got this constant clamoring on Paul to Timothy on Paul to the Ephesians elders Paul to the church at Ephesus to grow deeper in their understanding of who God is of how God operates of these really kind of cosmic level ideas and you know Ephesians chapter one I mean it's I mean it's dense it's extremely dense and and so in in the end that that that's that's where some of my problem lies with this evangelism first is it tends to isolate depth and view depth as the enemy of conversion and it's simply not true hmm so you end up with like I said a 40-year old you know breast feeding and playing in the kiddie pool and that's just sad yeah so we have a couple of correction points here we have look I don't want to be caricatured as a person who doesn't care about people I care about all people and and just because we're reaching loss people and reaching out to them that's caring for people we're doing that and then you got on this side look substance matters maturity matters Ephesians says maturity matters all right so um but you're just in Dallas there y'all I've heard you teach you're just feeling people's heads with a lot of Bible knowledge just Bible fat heads just like I know so much about God and that knowledge puffs up that's what I think you're doing and I don't think you care about content at all I think all you want to do is just reach the person far from God I don't think you really appreciate what he said at all so so I'd like to I'd like to if you'd allow the caricature for a moment because I'm we can get to what we but we know in a minute I'd like you just to speak to that because I do believe that what you said Steven was accurate I do believe that people level that and really because I have the privilege of knowing you I just think they don't get it at all yeah so I mean he's baptizing people left and right we talked about it he can defend himself you defend yourself I'm not defending them [Laughter] but to say that by leaving my church in a way that is missional II and evangelistically focused produces nineteen year old on the 19 year old who's hasn't grown up yet there's a you know I want to say the word breast it's clean now they're they're okay okay there's this there's this verse and Philemon I pray that you may be active and sure in your face so that you may have a full understanding of every good thing we have in Christ if an evangelism first church was me standing up every week and only presenting how to be saved how to come to Christ for 45 minutes and there was no there was no progressive teaching or there was no prayerful study of how are we going to communicate God's Word you know I I I've planned out my sermons and and I've done this now for the entire 5 years of the church with a 12 to 18 month out view that doesn't start with what would be cool and what would create buzz and what would create hype I think very seriously about what to feed the church however when I'm presenting to our church why we exist and why we do this if I don't constantly stand up there and say this is not about us this is not about simply collecting more knowledge this isn't simply about looking in a mirror going away for getting what we look like Jesus said you know Matthew Simon was the st. Matthew Seneca Oh everyone who comes to me and hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on the sand okay so I'm trying to create a church that doesn't just hear the word I'm trying to create a church that does the word and in that focus on reaching people far from God the content of everything that I preach is going to grow a believer that's the whole purpose but the greatest growth of a believer is when they get outside of themselves and they realize this isn't about me the most spiritually mature churches are the ones where the people aren't coming in asking what 47 Bible studies do you have for me but what can we give to the world how can we offer ourselves as living sacrifices that's the kind of culture I'm trying to create a culture where people are so mature that it's not about them a culture where it's so mature that they have grown and developed in their knowledge of God's mission God's character and the work to the point give me a thumbs up alright your times done you're on but here would be my like I guess so you kind of blow up on the scene and and so I didn't know a lot about you I'm here in Furtick we talked on the phone years ago right you I mean you just opened the door like 6,000 people came that weekend I got to know where no mailers no nothing just Holy Spirit drew him in and and so we talked and then we had one backstage kind of chitchat at catalyst and and then and then I'll send you're everywhere man I mean Rick Warren's you know having you you know do the intro to his new book or whatever having you at his house you know took his wife on a date I mean I know I've been to his office okay yeah here's what I did Stephen and here's like here's a legitimate concern so I'm I'm googling you I I just want to know what you're about there the reformed community is not a big fan to be straight with you not a big fan of [Applause] [Laughter] [Applause] so I come across this video of you and in Grant tonight I know I don't wanna be judged by things I've said 10 years ago or whatever but but of you rebuking your crowd for wanting depth and and your defense of that was that we've seen a thousand people saved here so from your own mouth and the pulpit drives the church I mean people can say whatever they want but the pulpit drives the church you're in front of your congregation saying you know you guys want to talk about reform you guys want to talk about this doctrine this doctrine this doctrine well I want you to know we baptized a thousand people you go somewhere else for that and everybody cheers and I'm heartbroken going you just did it bro you you literally just said evangelism and doctrine are exclusive yeah and and so that's the kind of thing for me that I look at that I'm saying oh and that's why I'm saying it's unfair because you judge by sound bites right so that's what I saw well the whole sermon was online she watch the whole thing is pre excellent I'm in Charlotte our cities are very similar we have a lot of church on every corner form of godliness deny the power of dead dry religion Ezekiel 37 valley of dry bones we're dealing with a lot of that and so to be and you know this very well sometimes I have to be hyperbolic and sure I've watched that clip too and man I mean there's a lot of stuff that was I remember it was actually the third service of the day and the tone was off and it's very angry however I like angry it does make me angry to think about how many people are cycling through my church as one out of four churches that they attend you know they go to this one because they like the children's ministry this one because their friends go there worships hot and so sometimes yes there is a there is a hyperbolic sense in which I will say if all you want to do is go deeper and what you mean by deeper is give me abstract theoretical truth that is so lofty and so disconnected that I don't have to do anything about it just confuse the heck out of me so that I won't have to go home and treat my wife any better or so that I won't have to step across the street and reach my neighbors yes I'm going to exaggerate my point that say get out of here if that's what you want and that was the context of that clip in the sermon but you don't see the rest of that in the five-minute clip also to that let me say one more thing there is for me there's something I heard you say one time I think maybe at desiring God and I was up this was right before I called you the last time that I called you and you're so kind to listen to my feedback he's rebuked me several times well I've called him because I was listening to this thing and you were you were talking about the nightmare that is Dallas and you said here's what I'm dealing with and the crowd went nuts this was total red meat for that particular crowd so you go in Dallas I've got pastors who say I'm gonna preach on debt for four weeks hey worship guy write me a song and so the worship guy writes a song dead is dumb and then the pastor gets up and says dead is dumb and and the crowds rolling and it's hysterical and at the end of it you say why not better and then you deliver some zinger line that just communicates the essence of the gospel in in two sentences and and and the crowd goes nuts and of course your way is better you know I've never been in a creative meeting that had anything in common with what you described and what that does to guys who are trying to preach in practical ways and reach people far from God is it makes us look like we're sitting around with no brains and we're not we're praying we're seeking God we're fasting I led my church through the New Testament in 30 days new through 30 we just finished a fast to begin our sixth year of ministry and when we fasted for 11 days together and we seek God and we seek God deeply and I just don't appreciate the kind of rhetoric that's easy to get a crowd fired up about any more than you would to me for me to separate evangelism and doctrine when we're just sitting around in a creative room thinking of ridiculous stuff and nothing is taken into account you really do care about God's Word in reaching people both ways it is true in July I think that was a good comeback I want this to push both ways and I think we've pushed really hard on the the the caricature your numbers only it's all you care about you don't care about your people you're not trying to feed them in grow me just lost people I think we've pushed hard on that and if we could heard some good answers like reasonable explanation and understanding and I hope you can grow in the thing that you're being challenged about but I want to come over here now and say yeah yeah I still think I still think yeah I I still think that the I think you're probably the most effective Bible teacher in Dallas for sure and that I know of and and and almost anywhere I think you're amazingly gifted of that I think people are coming to your church because it's like the evangelical equivalent of wine tasting I think that they like the way that Matt the way that Matt brings the word there's just nothing like that there's just nothing like it and I think I think you are probably seeing some people one to Christ but I honestly wonder if some of it isn't you just seeing people baptized who grew up in a church where they didn't emphasize baptism but they're probably already saved and they're coming for fine fine Bible teaching and um you know where's that going because he's trying to say if you're not missional its he quoted great Philemon v you know I pray to be active in sharing your faith you may have a full understanding of all that is yours in Christ without missional engagement to Lima in six excellent Philemon six is it thanks thanks that's one of the Bible yeah so you want that right like brothers like brothers so that so I want to hear you speak to that well I I think there are there are a couple of things first of all i i i think we see quite a bit of a conversion among what what i don't know how we want to label it the so I've got to baptize my daughter last weekend the girl and that it was baptized in front of her was you know coming out of homosexual background her church background with was her being sexually abused by her Deacon exceptions exception I can go through got some stories like that hundreds of those so just as many of those as I grew up in church and didn't hear the Bible so I want to as best I can attack we're here format and and so I where I'm on that we're here for the Bible connoisseur I like the way you teach the Bible if K Arthur was here I'd go to her church yeah talking about that but I think there's enough I think there's enough edge to me to to get the kind of staunch reformed button-down guy to be you know I I mean I'm gonna have something to drink I'm gonna say the word he'll occasionally is an adjective I'm gonna you know and that they tend to look upon those things with great frustration so you're trying to break down some of the legalism associated with Bible teacher look by Chandler's own admission all right I heard you one time or early on when I first started getting introduced to your stuff which I love I'm not just throwing that out there I love his stuff yeah he is everything I was doing in that thing you know feed me bless me man push back the highchair and get involved and start and start seeking God not in a sense of what's in it for you but in a sense of what you can get back to him and live your life in this way you were talking about when you came to the church and you took out the old guy who looked like Ned Flanders and you know and you said man I need you to stay with me on this and you said something you said I'm gonna change this and I'm gonna change that and you're not gonna like it and you're not gonna like the music but when we saw and you described dozens of grown men being baptized you said I knew that and he knew that we're in this for the same thing okay so I'm saying that's what that's what that's what makes your heart beat to is is dozens of grown men being baptized in the girl you just started to describe do baptized and and so you are every bit to me as offensive to the people who just want doctrinal depth for the sake of knowledge and for the sake of their for the sake of their own you understand you you hate that every bit as much as I do and you might come at it from a different way in how you run those people off but that's what you described and so anyway you think that's right I do I think we're getting some I think that what we're finding out is is that people want a typecast this is what you are you're nothing else you're only this and I think that's why we have conversation that's the I want to hear from some of these guys what do you got Driscoll well it's interesting I mean critics background your musician worship leader artist so he's gonna play to his strengths Matt isn't an artist I mean his sure that's true yeah no that's not offensive to me he's an athlete he's an for years every shirt has a caller who wears a polo and he looks like an extra from a 1950s sitcom he just stops years ago Driscoll is wearing a choker so I'm just [Laughter] there skinny jeans just not cuz they're skinny because I'm not that's that's just that's just how it works so I mean part of it is you played your strikes a part of it too is his church is only five years old so he's gonna have a lot of young converts and you know if he ends up having brain cancer that's gonna affect the way he teaches the Bible as his people age he's gonna have to hit certain issues right now it's all weddings not funerals right I mean you know he's serving the people he's got and he'll changes the church requires alright what another one of you guys I without I don't know either one of these guys that well we've just met but then listen to Steven it seems to me probably has an evangelistic gift in his life and that may not and that's not better or worse it's just different and sometimes I think when you're an evangelist and that's my gift makes as well you know I need to swing more toward the discipline of Bible exposition illustrations come easily you know the although you know peeling the non-believers comes easily after work at it but sometimes a guy who has more of a teaching gift and it doesn't necessarily have that evangelistic gift per se needs says Paul said to Timothy to do the work of an evangelist so I think both swinging a certain way because look every church needs a constant flow of new believers in it because if a church does not evangelize it will fossilize well here's what here's what here's a quote from verdict yes it's my responsibility to edify those who already know Christ through my preaching and to feed and disciple the flock but I always tilt the playing field toward the guy or gal who's far from God eternity hangs in the balance for them all right he also said if you know Jesus this church is not for you we do one thing preached Jesus so that people far from God can know Jesus so clearly an evangelistic gift at work here and any response to that as an emphasis or overemphasis I mean obviously a quote I stand by it there's over a hunt there's over 700 churches in Charlotte and God did not call me there to create a boutique that would serve the needs of the people who aren't being perfectly served who only like ninety seven percent of what their current church has to offer I came to Charlotte to see a city turned upside down to see some lost people saved to see the kingdom of God built and extended and expanded and I'm going to always in terms of context tilt the field toward my kids t-ball coach who just lost his daughter six months ago and doesn't know the Lord I've been inviting them for five months and you know what I've trained my church to bring those people with them every single weekend so when they step out and they risk everything to say to their neighbor to say to their friend to say to their family member come to church with me I'm gonna put it in a way that that person has the opportunity to respond to the gospel it's important to me my content is going to be biblical I have a mandate to be biblical to preach the word be instant in season and out that's very important to me and I don't always do it perfectly but I always do it with all of my heart but I'm going to in my mind when I'm preparing that sermon I'm gonna picture my kids t-ball coach I'm gonna picture that guy not having a clue what I'm talking about and I'm going to start with an entry point that helps them understand what the gospel is all right David Platts a Bible teacher very gifted growing church your thoughts on the tug of war between evangelism and biblical instruction in Sunday obviously we obviously all want the same thing I think though if we're not careful we can become too dependent in our evangelistic strategy on what happens on that Sunday morning to bring people to Christ when I look at that I think it's far more effective than bringing as many lost people as they can to hear me I think it's far more effective for me to send out thousands of people every week who had the Holy Spirit of God and who have the ability to share the gospel with people that I'll never meet in context that I'll never go like that's where evangelism needs to be happening in the church primarily it doesn't need to be primarily dependent on me I don't I don't think I think it needs to be on the people of God it's how the gospel spread in the book of Acts with the people everyone except the apostles were scattered in Judea and Samaria this is how the gospel went forward not because of the Apostles preaching yes they were equipped but it was everyone except the apostles who went out and started the church at Antioch which came with a base for mission in the world it was it was the people of God equipped with the Word of God and the power of the Spirit of God who were leading people to Christ and so for the tee-ball guy I want the guy who is in my church who's on the t-ball game on the his son is on the same team I want that guy to be equipped to do that with this guy right here instead of me having to do that with this guy this guy and all the infinite number of scenarios there's people that are rubbing shoulders from my church all throughout the community that I want them to be empowered and freed up and not not to have to even just invite them to come hear me I want to be able to lead them to Christ they're at work right and leave them to Christ and just do disciple making their and I think if we're not careful we can become too dependent on what happens and and creating the environment or whatever it is that we're going to bring people to instead of empowering people to do this all across the context the community that that's where the city really gets affected Perry first of all I think I'm sitting in the coldest place in the anyway I agree with you but I don't think it's either war I think it's at both end I think I want my people to go out and and witness and share Christ but at the end of the day I've got some people Jesus was standing right next to them in the flesh going you can do this they be like I don't know man I don't think I don't I don't think I'm tell people about you and so I think you create the environment and you raise up the people because the thing I know about Steven and Matt is they're going to teach the Bible you're gonna that's what we do we teach the Bible and even if there's an evangelistic bent on what you're teaching you're still teaching the Word of God so if I'm sitting there and I'm listening you teach the Word of God if I come with my fork ready you know what I'm saying you're gonna I'm gonna get something so if I come to your church fifty times a year and you give me 50 new principles and I'll take those 50 new principles and apply those principles that's deep I don't care I like my life can't change that much but if I can take just half of what you're teaching every week and apply that into my life even though you're trying to you know you your emphasis is on reaching the person that doesn't know Christ man I think as long as you're teaching the Word of God no matter what your motives are Paul said who cares what the motives are as long as Christ is preached praise God and so if you're trying to get I mean if the biggest thing Steven that anybody can ever accuse you of is you just want to reach lost people I think you're okay I think I think you're fine but Matt Matt wants the same thing Matt what's the same thing I just think it's it's not either/or I think it's let me in let me let me tie something though I will we're gonna go to Q&A in just a second so let's wrap it up we're gonna hear some fractions well have for us what plan says okay and he says rightly we've got a train our people to be able to share the gospel without us it's not all about us at the same time you say well the pulpit is I don't have you said the rudder of the church but something to that it drives it drives the church if I am NOT faithfully week after week after week speaking to people far from God in the gathering that is the worship of Jesus that is all about the gospel of Christ how in the world is the guy who has a t-ball coach who doesn't know Christ going to be able to model something that I don't model so then I say it's not only the weekend but if I'm not starting with the weekend to say we are going to reach people far from God through the preaching of the gospel on the weekend and its primary how will it be primary in someone else's life the way I'm going to get them engaged and how in the world do we think these lost people are showing up at our church it's through our people rubbing shoulders as you described and and living a life that that that that makes the person want to respond clear we're gonna go to the questions now we'll start with you Matt and let me just give you this question was texted in to both of you evaluate this statement I'm primarily speaking to Christians when I preach that I would say that I am primarily speaking to Christians when I preach with a view that there are lost people there okay Steven I would say that I am primarily speaking to Christians when I just do it don't know if you don't agree with that to say no I'm not thinking that I'm thinking lost people Christians listen in if I preach for 45 minutes I am going to describe in that 45 minutes the character of a Christian or the action that this this is calling for what God's trying to do in our lives but I'm going to do it in a context that is primarily geared toward the person who is outside and trying to bring them inside and I am going to give preference to them in the way I present my message so pretty opposite in it in how we prepare because I'm preparing okay this is what the Word of God says for the Saints here going to be the objections and issues that a lost man or woman has with this let me address these things while I teach this that's what I do okay it sounded like you were saying you kind of start with what are the eject objections and then go to no no I got this I got this preaching to Christians with in the back of my mind all the time as non-believers yeah and I'm gonna get the gospel in there and preaching to lost people but remembering that I love and care for the people that are in my church I'm gonna have something to say to them to while I'm doing it those are two very different ways of doing it that's not the same thing all right and we don't we're not and we're maybe we're not called to the same thing I'm not even evaluating and I'm just saying I'm not gonna let us make that into the same thing it isn't the same I think you very different no you just took that and you took that and you put it under a heading that was too broad what I said isn't I'm preaching lost people and I care about that my church too I'm saying my church exists for the mission of God in the world and I am going to equip them Ephesians 4 for that ministry and I'm going to empower them with the Word of God and so if I'm describing in Christ you are more than a conqueror in Christ you are and I'm really going for it and I'm sweating I'm talking about the condition of a Christian but I'm going to explain that in a way that someone who is outside knows how they can get in on some of that and I'm going to constantly have them in my mind in my preparation but I'm not preaching a sermon that a Christian can't relate to I'm not talking for 40 minutes about how to become a Christian and then oh yeah by the way if you're into this here's something you can try no way all right second clarified for sure second a question should believers we've heard a lot of talk about churches who tell Christians you know we're gonna teach you how to feed yourself and so on should believers grow themselves or is it the church's responsibility to help people grow Matt I think that it's a false dichotomy I mean it the church has a responsibility and and so do you I role is to train you for the work of ministry but you have to be in submission wanting to learn wanting to apply wanting to engage and and that's where he gets the disjoint I get the disjoint with our people where because you know people come to hear me preach but people come to I mean Stevens lights out man right Riggin like Dane Cook with the Bible right and so it's I mean lights out man I mean he's one of the best dressers I've ever seen I mean it's lights out but but but at the end of the day I mean people hear him and don't apply people hear me and don't apply it so our job is to unpack truth build systems of accountability but ultimately they've got to own it they've got to own it and apply it or they're not going to I don't matter how creative or how strong or how doctrinal or out whatever we are you know you know it's funny because my thinking on these subjects really I really feel like I'm both both both and I think that if you're if you're listening to this you should be saying I'm both I want to be both you're arguing I'm both man don't make me one I'm both I hear you saying look Pete lost people are coming to Christ to my church it's both that blesses me because we started our church you know over 20 years ago now and I was both both both my heart was I can preach the word verse-by-verse and win/loss people I don't want to be forced into it's one or the other I always have used a religious language I always try to connect with people in a practical way I always have lost people in my mind but Jesus was like feed my sheep feed my she didn't say a lot of stuff three times you know I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer but feed my sheep feed my sheep feed my sheep I must be important right and and so I want to feed the people in the church but I don't feed them Christian meals you know tear off instant preparation Christian details but only Christians can understand I feed them the Word of God in a way that any person who is hungry and I believe everyone's hungry I believe that anyone can be fed by this and for and I put lots of on-ramps into it so that non-believers who are there can get it and get on the gospel needs to be in every message I'm for that but I just hate this idea that feeding sheep is is that the enemy of reaching people I hate that and I also hate the idea that you're all about lost people you don't care about the people in your church and I just I think what you said about false dichotomy as brothers we should not allow ourselves to be and we've all said things I mean I was quoting things you've said we've all said things in the moment you said hyperbole you listen to part of the message I get that but at the end of the day we there this is not a negotiable point it has to be about both you have to never let someone say that you're only about lost people even though that's your gift like Greg said but never let someone back you into that corner and say all about and don't be like that recognize your own tendency to slip off into that and feed the sheep in the same way yeah you don't need to hear this challenge from me but I'm just saying as brothers let's agree about this you have to be growing your church yeah one of the things I believe you talked about the purpose of God in the world and your seminary trained the purpose of God in the world is not soteriological okay it's not the purpose of God in the world is doxological the ultimate purpose is the glory of God more Christians in Charlotte bring more glory to God better Christians in Charlotte bring more glory to God in a church in a church with that in a city with that many churches how many crappy Christians are there they're detracted from the glory of God every minute they lead their crappy life okay so so challenging people to be more god-honoring in your sermon like you said challenging them about their life in Christ challenging people to be more God honoring and growing up your Christians is not a waste of time and how many times do Bible teaching pastors hear this thing you're wasting your time people are going to hell you're just feeding your sheep alright look look growing better Christians is part of the mission it's not just get them the fire insurance and go on to the next person alright I I put the top 5,000 Chris in our church about any Christians against any Christians on any continent they will take the mountain all right they are missional e connected for the glory of God and the the how do we bring glory to God by reaching lost people but but the ultimate thing of the glory of God has got to be central in the life of the church so we don't win lost people or build the church but both of those are subsets of our ultimate mission which is to show off a display how awesome God's great son is all right come on Perry what uh it's probably frozen all right all right I love that I think we've heard each other I think I so appreciate you in the way that you've clarified what your heart is and things I totally know there's people coming to Christ yes I'm thrilled about it and and I just think let's get on the same page this can never be compromised but this is what God has given us to reach people far from God it's all in here and you feed them so that they can do the word amen and I need them so they can do the word that's where I'm coming from I'm not going to feed you just so you can get fat and say that was wonderful you feed them so they can do the work do you look at people when you see them because when you say that's feed them so they can get fat that sounds like you see a a a Christian you see them as already healthy and I don't want to make them fat and I hear that but when I see I think of Christians mainly as like really malnourished starving starving in art in the church today selfish Shepherds shallow services starving sheep yeah that's everywhere it's everywhere so selfish Shepherds they only shallow services starving shame all right three SS bro yeah I litter is that that's a book all right all right that session that session is over I think we've we've heard each other we've we've we didn't we didn't fold it down did we we brought it we we hammered it out together and I hope that's helpful to people and let's let's all commit ourselves to that dual purpose no false dichotomy both matters lots of water in the baptistry tons of people coming to Christ feeding them the Word of God not so they'll grow fat so they'll grow healthy and bring more glory to the Father who loved him and saved him right sure all right that's it wrap [Applause]

Channel: Good Conversations

Views: 491,182

Rating: 4.7902513 out of 5

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Id: JOKceYR4lyE

Length: 41min 56sec (2516 seconds)

Published: Thu Nov 28 2019