Elephant Room Round 2 | Session 3 | Wayne Cordeiro and James MacDonald (2012)

[Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] welcome back to the elephant room we've got session number three hard day's night on ministry pressure burnout frustration we're gonna talk to the guy who wrote the book leading on empty it's great I I would love to hear a story well I was shocked when I heard that that you kind of got burned out I was like I mean you know why you know why he gets burned out in a life yeah I mean that's where you go when you get burned out I mean my emotional spectrum is angry - really angry you know so I get burned out you you eat a lot of pizza we could have a break pastor iron Pastor Wayne had a break now you you eat vitamins you drink purified water you read through the whole Bible every year even when I called him for this event he said well I may do it first I need to pray and fast about it I thought no you see though I'm gonna do it or say my job that's a great idea and fast how did you get burned out I mean you're you're happy Pleasant you're even charismatic I mean you you you sing you sing publicly and you don't have it together no you do what happened well this is a zoo we're here and here now but you know you even even though it's funny they say how can you be burned out in Hawaii that's a great question because actually it doesn't matter if you're in a small church big Church slower Church medium it's every single one of us susceptible to being burnt out and I went through that and I just nailed me I didn't know what was happening what was how did it happen what was the moment I mean did it was it gradual Oh was it all of a sudden it just hit you oh you catch some things along the way you know you thought you think I'm a little anxious about this as a warning yeah this decision used to be easy for me why is he coming up with another problem I'm sick and tired of people's problems that's a warning sight oh no [Laughter] why actually I was running before a conference I was just jogging and all of a sudden I found myself on the curb crying uncontrollably and I thought and I remember pulling up my hands like this and it was shaky and I thought what in the world is going on and I actually said it out loud I said what's happening and all I knew was something had broken on the inside and I just I couldn't go on I went up to my room i sat there but here's the thing when you're in ministry you can't stop the train it's still going I had to speak in 45 minutes so you put on a mask and you just grit your teeth and you dig deep and ask you know for some kind of help adrenaline starts to run and you make it through the problem is that which fuels you on the inside will also destroy you and so I began to run on adrenaline because you can't stop you know pass there's life is bookended with sermons every weekend you've got something you can't stop and I didn't know what to do so I kept grinding it out and I started having anxiety attacks what does that look like well you have you can't clear your breath you know your heart attack that's like you can't breathe we got heaviness yeah you were a jogger how many miles a day were you jogging oh not that far 23 James now unless there's a dog or a fire we're not running you can be healthy or otherwise it's really an emotional thing on the inside your your serotonin levels which is your you know the endorphins that are in you just get depleted because you need to take a rest and I was violating that so if you don't take a sabbatical you get a forced sabbatical yeah here's what and it may sound funny to some people but my priorities switched it used to be God and then my spouse my family and my ministry here's what I found for me anyway it's God a self spouse family ministry because you see if I tell people work on yourself harder than you work on your ministry because if you're doing well and you're in the word and you're healthy vertically then everybody around you are there automatic beneficiaries well you work with Bill Hybels a lot I know and he says that 50 percent of leadership is self management delayed percent of the energy goes just comment on that a little more from your experience yeah because see as a Christian you think I've got to put myself last and I kept doing that and other people there you're always gonna have a wedding or counseling appointment or something that's gonna pop up even if you have zero appointments in a day you're busy so I knew that if I didn't start working on myself I would just deplete and I did again and again here's what my problem was I thought my capability was equal to my calling wrong my capacity was equal to my Commission wrong because I thought if I have the capability or capacity to do that to help somebody I should isn't that what a shepherd should do well it's not always God might say this is what I've called you to do this is what I've asked you to do but I thought but I can do this and so a lot of people might sin on the bottom side where they don't obey I sent on the top side where God didn't ask me to do that although it's religious and spiritual I shouldn't have done that and I depleted myself my problem is I sin on the top side Pharisees did that didn't they they saw a law and then went way beyond it to show him how righteous they were I sent on the top side I didn't realize that the devil doesn't care what side of the boat you go off mmm just so long as you go off so he knew that he couldn't tempt me on this side he could on this side so he said when your capability is this why not but in the end God's not gonna hold me accountable for what I've done he's gonna hold me accountable for how much I did of what he asked me to do how much of that have I done now talk about that because a lot of times leaders in any organization but you know specifically for our conversation pastor you have your calling and then you have your compulsion and and there's a difference between your calling and your compulsion and and part of it too is not just managing your time but your energy so that you can fulfill your calling and not waste your energy on your compulsions for leaders that are hearing this in the sea okay categorically understand that what does that look like to be aware of it and what does it look like to make the changes organizationally and with family to carve out that space to be healthy yeah that's so tough cuz I feel like Schindler you know I could have saved one more marriage right I could have led one more person to Christ and I just don't get any rest up here well in one more in the short term one more marriage today but maybe not my own tomorrow yeah one more marriage today but maybe out of the ministry in five years that's not a great plan either is it because there's always gonna be needs everywhere but I have to find out what God's asked me to do and be real careful in this site I'm just learning that and that whole burnout thing took five years of my life to explain that but you you get nailed and at first you think you're Superman you think you're invincible because you linked four or five successes together you think you're bulletproof at that point and what happens is you we don't forget that we're pastors we forget that we're human thank you and you don't understand your humanity here so you put on a Superman suit and you don't ever take it off you sleep with it right and then you you can't be human anymore what because part of it is when you're leading on empty is a book says one of the things that concern me was the people need a hero they need to look up to somebody that's following Christ not a Marvel Comics strip or something else they really need and authentic godly hero but then you think I'm hurting and that wouldn't be a hero would it right and so you die to yourself because it sounds religious and you just start to fry so then the road to what you perceive as success and the road to a mental breakdown become one in the same Road it's inevitable really that's what we were talking about over dinner last night Bishop Jake's was talking about feeling trapped that sometimes a leader can feel like everything requires me and I need to continue and we all have felt that to some capacity and degree and the more responsibility the more pressure there is to push it and to end it - even jeopardize your well yeah after a while the ministry basically runs you you start to feel trapped one of the other symptoms is your joy starts to diminish I still preach but the joy of it is gone I still minister but the joy of it is gone remember Psalm 51 it says restore unto me the joy of thy salvation and uphold me with a rightful spirit but but it's interesting it right there sustained me I mean uh restore unto me the joy the devil can't steal my marriage he doesn't have authority to do that so he steals the joy out of being married and I give up on it myself mm-hmm he cannot steal my ministry so he'll steal the joy of ministering and I drop out myself right so he can't do it so he gets you to the edge you can't push you over but he can figure away make it jump jump alright and so when depression hit me and I was wrestling with depression I the only way I thought neither sounds really morbid but there were times that went through my mind that I thought the only way I can get out of ministry is die well I've seen other guys that have actually stepped on a moral landmine yeah it was like why did he do that well cuz he wanted to blow himself up so that yes so that so that they wouldn't give him a break they would never bring him back right the only way to go is to go down yeah and we were we were talking about that at length last night to feeling trapped feeling like you're a prisoner of your own fruitfulness like I just tried to work hard and do my best and now I gotta do this for the rest of my life or I'm just trapped here there's no other way out when I was in this depressive state the only thing I could think about was when can I retire do I have an I felt like David counting number of his troops you know in a census and and god it's saying do that but I was saying thinking how much money do I have can I retire you know I just I just need to sort out I got one out and that took me into a deep deep depression and I'm out of it now I tell people I'm I'm sort of out of the forest but I can still feel the bark of the trees against my back yeah just that far what did that do to your wife my wife is fabulous you know one of the things about going through burnout as you don't publicize it it goes deeper and deeper and because you've got to keep an exterior and even an at-home you you just can't vent on everybody so when Jesus went to Gethsemane and and it says he he sweat like drops of blood I understood his humanity at that point and I thought that's what I feel like right I feel like bleeding through my pores well you know I went through really two periods of time where I felt like I was gonna quit the ministry and I'm sure to surprise some people do you hear me say that wouldn't surprise my wife the first time was in 1998 and we were 10 years into our church and we've seen a lot happen built a building got into it's growing it's full of multiple services and the church graciously extended us an extended time away think about we'll go give him a break he'll come back fired up I was going to figure out a new plan and and in the first time the Lord much like what you described gave me a really some spiritual insights I really feel like I hadn't I'd neglected my soul I've neglected my walk with the Lord I didn't understand some of the principles of an exchanged life and Christ in you the hope of glory and that then I don't have to live the Christian life in my own strength that it's God living it through me and really was able to dial up my relationship with Lord and some of the spiritual solutions to get a better resource to continue but then I came back and went back at it just as hard in that strength and I got to a different place really in about 2009 where there's no spiritual way out of this hallway this is not as my relationship in the Lord is not bad I love the Lord I'm not neglecting the word I'm not neglecting my walk a lot of times like have another quiet time bro well this wasn't gonna get fixed with a quiet time or or a faith or a prayer and and I had to come to see that my way of relating to my church to my elders was just it was unhealthy I was an unhealthy person we did a big analysis of our church one of the feedbacks that came back was was that I tended to bear the weight of everyone else has failed performance you know that's going down put it on my shoulders you're upset about something here let me suck all that up I'll absorb the whole thing so we can get back on the same page again and and absorbing people's dysfunctions just soak it all up put it on me and and I had to come to the place where I looked at our leadership team and I remember a particular elders being around like this is not healthy for me there's not healthy for me we have to tear this whole way of relating down on earth I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing without some good men who got over their own egos and got around me and said we want to make this healthy and we had to just do church do leadership do distribution of responsibility in a lot different way and I had to make myself really accountable to a team of people no you're not going there no no we're not you're not going to speak there you're not doing that guy wasn't smart enough to figure it out by myself I really had to get on a program and but two very different now when you describe your situation which of one of those was it more well let me go back write it back to what you just said you couldn't do it on your own you weren't smart enough I tell you when you're going through this you have to ask for help you've got to get help from outside of you someone that's objective there's an old saying that says the eye cannot see the eye now you can't see your own eyeball you can see through it but if there's something wrong with it you better have someone else help you hmm and that's how it is when you start to feel the decrease of joy and and your levels start to drop and everything seems like another problem to be solved so I need more than a mirror to start looking I can't I can't figure that out got to have someone help and and that's where pride has to be - and your ego has to be depleted in order to do that humility is huge but here's what God does it's like when you're I'm flying at a airplane 32,000 feet we're having fun we're partying we're not thinking about God but all of a sudden of engine sputters and another sputters and you start doing this all of a sudden every passenger on that plane it's very open to God right right and now the belly of the old-time religion yeah under the fuselage his belly is scraping the top of the trees and everyone's making commitments to Jesus Christ and let's say the pilot pulls it up and now when you're back at 32,000 feet this is what God said Wayne you know what I taught you down here don't forget it up here and the reason I allowed this plane to go down and scrape the top of the trees is because what I wanted to teach you here I couldn't teach you up here what does it look like when the plane crashes well thank God it hasn't for you for me but you've seen it happen if it crashes it's mostly because people bail out I tell people this you know I wish Jesus would take me by the hand and lift me over the valleys lift me over the the trenches but what I found is Jesus takes a hold of your hand and he drags you right through him and you bump over the rocks and the crags he drags you right through him but here's the thing he will never let go of your hand mm-hmm but you can let go of his and if people crash somewhere along the line we've let go of his hand he won't let go of ours because he's gonna bring us through and when my healed and my bruises heal and my cuts get sutured up I'm able to turn around like jesus said to Simon when you've turned strengthen your brothers then I can help those coming behind me if he just put me over like this I would not have a bit of empathy for those that are going for this stuff well so it's a great transition point I'm gonna take it to the bullpen at this point and just get any feedback from the men Bishop Jake's I would love it if you would go first because there are there is there's not a man in the room or a woman it's listening in that has the amount of people and pressures and responsibilities that you do quite frankly I mean everybody carries away your weight is eating heavy and so if you would be willing to add any of your thoughts we'd appreciate first of all I'm just I'm awed by the how eloquently this this whole issue is addressed I think it is a paramount importance I deeply relate to it and I think I really say to the continuation of the conversation we had last night for a unique moment of transparency existed amongst men from completely different walks of lives sometimes we focus so much on who we are and what we have and what we think and what we believe that we lose sight that we are brothers and last night we we found that we were all very similar in in ways that are very very important in terms of dealing with stress and pressure and having those moments where the plane almost crashes I think that the problem exists because many times we are so busy taking the oxygen mask and putting it on the passenger that we don't put it on ourselves and feel guilty if we do but if you don't take heed unto yourself and then the of God after why you begin to implode and the tragedy is it is it is the silent scream in the illustration that that you just made if the plane were going down the passengers would scream but when the leader goes down he never says a word that's a fact it is the silent screaming of a tormented soul who is so affixed on a hero complex that we do not have the luxury of role reversal to get to be the recipient we are so busy being Superman we can never think of ourselves in terms of Lois Lane so so we we are not like we hands yes we are what I'm saying barring the gender issue what I am saying is that we have not been taught to screen we are not given permission to scream and so whatever we go through mentally emotionally maritally we slowly until eventually what we go under and then when we go under then all the Sharks come out to to eat the new victim they smell blood in the water and the whole church comes around to watch the lynching of what could have been a very good person but through this level of stress stepped on a mine field and blew up and and I think we're seeing it happening more and more Lord and because our world is getting faster and faster and faster it used to be you had a calendar for a year but but with the technology and everything moving the way there's now you can't move ahead planning a year's calendar things are changing every 30 days and so you have to be back in there fixing amending the pressure is mounting and I just applaud in this form to have this kind of conversation I think it's very important thanks that's good ah Pastor Steven I'm gonna address this question to you in light of the internet technology additional pressure stresses responsibilities and expenses that come to a leader and how that factors into their wellness their joy their sustainability yeah my wife the other day my wife Holly was like you know get off Twitter I was fussing about something and and I was like I want to but is is so much good stuff that I hate to leave behind we had we had so many people putting on the hashtag for the event that we were doing the way God was changing their lives and that was feeding me because I was tired and depleted so that would fill me up and then the one negative thing would punch a hole and everything that had just filled me up would start leaking out and then I find myself getting into an approval trap really quickly and I think it's unhealthy for me I would say that I'm personally in an unhealthy place and very blessed to be listening to this calm in terms of how much interaction that I'm having with the opinions of people and in an effort to really get out there and say some good things and encourage people it opens up and exposes vulnerabilities then I'm angry at one person and you start ministering out of that so you know I'm thankful that the Lord is letting me get some of this wisdom from you guys today take some notes and everything like that I probably need to drop a registration fee on the way out because this is so helpful for me it's amazing come in for half price it's all good it's amazing to me he'll steal your joy and get you to give up on it yourself because he can't he can't kick you out that really ministered to me and I'm just praying that the Lord will help me figure out some ways to keep the joy in it it's what a lot of my mentors have been telling me lately man you're in a great season of ministry and blessing good don't let don't let the devil take your joy your moment don't do the ministry but miss the moment I think it's the way you said to enjoy what the Lord's doing so I'm really listening to this another thing Steve you know one of the things that helped me so much is every single one of us has to give somebody permission to speak into your life if you can't name a person I've given permission to these three men to speak into my life if you get him well then I used to think if I could comment an add on that I mean Howard Hendrix used to say that everybody needs somebody who can look them in the face and say you're neglecting your wife yeah however I have found that even giving the permission doesn't always produce the courage and there needs to be some kind of continual empowering of people and reminding them in our positions that look you're really hurting all of us and you're disappointing all of us if you don't do this I prom and just really have to keep assuring people that everything's gonna be good no matter what you tell me and I need to hear it feels like you say we can't fix our own eye so the other thing that can I just please somebody I think they're there it's very difficult very few men of God create a platform even if you do have a person of total transparency where you are armed with the language because the truth of the matter if I neglecting my wife my best friend wouldn't know it it's a view or walking around in my house you wouldn't know that the joy of my marriage is gone because we are always so camera-ready that we never appear before people fighting you know we're gonna smile even if we get back in the car and and maybe it's not always about fighting maybe it's just the depletion of joy and and so at the end of the day I think what has to happen is in addition to having someone with whom you can be transparent we have to practice on telling the truth we who Herald the truth Alison do not often tell the truth beyond the truth we aro and sometimes hide behind the truth we hero because it is a safe place it is a word of God it doesn't change its absolute it's easy to preach about Jeremiah and Jacob and John because it avoids you from seeing me and it's kind of like the the wizard in The Wizard of Oz you know this little guy behind there pulling all those buttons is a little tiny guy but nobody saw it because the boom bah Dabang about all that's going on upfront but behind it off when you when you cry when you crash you don't crash outwardly you crash inwardly and so I think get just us broaching the subject today but it makes every pastor every leader every Sunday school leader every CEO no matter who it is say do I have a person do have I set aside a place and a time and do I have the language to come out from behind the curtain and show you who I really am because you cannot critique what you cannot see that's so hard because you don't know if you can trust people that deeply that's where we need to go with this yeah that's that's really hard because if you get one betrayal or one person bilking you you it's like a cat that sits on a hot stove not only will the cat never sit on a hot stove won't sit on any stove well don't you think pastor that sometimes when we limit our associations to other pastors and all of our thoughts are doing what we do it's kind of difficult to critique yourselves when we're all doing the same thing I like to have a plethora of relationships that do not compete with me but complete me and in order to do that you have to broaden your your scope and you in so doing you broaden your thinking and you get to have a founding board with somebody who doesn't echo your truth because everything you say is right when you're in the Grand Canyon at this point I'm gonna transition to a few questions to stay true to the format the first one what's the most helpful thing a wife can do to prevent her husband's burnout and Jack I'm gonna give this one to you how long have you been in ministry now 40 years 40 years how long you been married for 40 years 40 years that was a big year for you I'm still married to my wife oh that's good so this wife apparently wife has a question if she you know she loves her husband and she wants to help him as a friend how can she do that allowing him to be himself at home you know dev has been great in that through these years she's never she's never let me get away with trying to be something that I'm not and so I think honesty and transparency with your wife is critical you talk about accountability that this mean your wife should be your number one accountability problem now you have to be the only problem no no not accountability problem personally okay I misunderstood but that can be a problem that can be a problem is where I was heading because our wives we talked about this last night are not really equipped to handle all the pressure ministry and so bringing that home and dumping that at the house constantly that's what can create offense in the marriage and and and the wife ready to give up before the husband is so dev has been fantastic all these years in in just the poor keeping it real at the house and keeping keeping our kids real at the house are all our kids are walking in truth they love the Lord they they know I think what happens with with with ministers homes is that the kids and the wife sees somebody different at home then they see at church and we know it's true who is this guy that's in the pulpit as compared to this guy who is at the house and you you want your kids to later on to say dad was the same guy good bad and indifferent he wasn't somebody different at home but the burnout thing is very real and I you know I was just thinking as we've been talking here that there's this a god moment for a lot of people that are watching and it's a liberating time because I know when I went through a burnout period in my life just a total depletion adrenalin wipeout driven by prostate cancer which I'm now healed up thank God but when I went through that I thought I was the only one that ever did that I thought I was so I was weak and some what's wrong with me what's wrong with my faith why can't I get over this when you are in a burned-out condition depleted adrenalin depletion you don't want to get out of bed you know you dread the day that's that was the sign for me I always you know get up not necessarily all great till I had some coffee but always looking forward in my day when you are in a burned out condition you don't look forward to anything you are just kind trying to get through and so there goes to ministry there goes the joy and you're crawling in the pulpit you're crawling out and I know when I went through that Deb was so great just to nurture me love me care for me in that way but at the same time you know say you to talk to somebody and actually well you talk about humbling is me the pastor go talk to somebody about what I'm going through it was a hard thing it was one of the best things I ever did so that's why I say it's a god moment for anybody who's listening to this and you're feeling some of these symptoms don't be so proud that you can't get the help that you need you know if you think about it too there's some pretty notable figures in the Bible that went through that you think about Elijah in first Kings 19 after the prophets of bale and ash wrought that war he runs from Jezebel and he's just depleted and he says I want to die Moses probably in numbers 20 JAMA it was tired of the complaining of the people and instead of speaking to the rock he just starts beating on it you know we get tired I want to beat on some people and I just what you can't so you have to shove it inside and you beat on yourself correct Jonah was the same way Jeremiah there's a lot of notable a bigger majority the Psalms are laments I know for me one thing I fried out my adrenal glands some years ago and I told grace that I needed her to be my friend and and I told her stop asking me what I'm doing and started asking me how I'm doing because I'd come home she'd say okay what are you doing then I started talking about the day well next thing I know it's late at night we're laying in bed talking about what I'm frustrated about instead of sleeping or praying or you know whatever and and so I just told her you know don't ask me what I'm doing ask me how I'm doing and that changed the direction of the conversation when I'd get home during the day and I'll go to one more question how often should a pastor take a sabbatical crawford how long have you been in ministry over 40 years over 40 years so I mean you've seen a lot of people not make it yeah you've seen some crash and get back up yeah workload schedule sabbatical what's a healthy rhythm for a leader well it varies in is that there's not an easy answer for that you know I want to answer another question that's related to that though I I think as I listen to you Wayne I feel as if some of us who mentor younger leaders are partly complicit in this whole trajectory sure and I think one of the big problems is that everybody parades around going to conferences that focus on it focuses on leadership development or how to be more strategic where we really ought to spend a lot more time talking about leader development and we also need to hold up the whole principle of brokenness and God dependence from the very beginning and develop our our rhythms around our are forever need for the Lord and keep a little bit more of a distance between what I'm doing and who I am and I think it's a way of thinking that we need to constantly press into that's been my salvation okay unpack that your your identity is not your ministry your identity is not your ministry that sounds like a cliche and it can be but you know there needs to be a profound simplicity in terms of how we approach these things and I think James you describing the second time around is that's where you came back to you came back to the realization that look God hasn't been using me because I know how to plan lead organizing control God's been hitting a straight lick with a Crooked Stick for years right for years he's been doing that and so we've got to stop looking at ourselves in a mirror and singing How Great Thou art or you know we've been saving that what haven't you counsel I mean I'm really serious about that and I think we've done these younger leaders are a hellacious disservice because what they see what they see is the grace of God that's used crack chip clay pots and they want to hear the principles as to how you can get all these multi sites and folks coming in this kind of thing and so they get on this treadmill of performance when the truth of the matter is God just breathed on us what you're saying teaching on how to get used instead of teaching on a healthy that's right and not to not to run a cliche in the ground but you know I was really moved last night I wish all of all this whole group could have that was a god moment as we sat around talking at dinner and you know and bishops shared some things as to where where he's at and I had this moment which I had tears in my eyes I wish that every every young leader every dude 35 and younger could have been in that room last night to hear Wayne gets to this place now in his life but I think okay how how do we help this generation distance their gift see gifts are oversold gifts are not a statement about my value to God or anybody else it's just something that he uses it's something he is it's like Moses staff I mean it's just any other thing God doesn't use what we bring to the table he uses what we surrendered to him mm-hmm and it is it's in that personal deep relationship with God and stop bifurcating that and stop stop separating that from what you do and lead with that and I think that's where the energy comes and that's when the Holy Spirit speaks your hearts to know how much I need to push this day when do I need to pull back tomorrow and you learn to listen to that at this point I'm supposed to wrap things up but I feel compelled in the Holy Spirit instead to just ask you pastor Wayne to pray to pray for those leaders who are listening in to pray for those who support their leaders in various capacities for the spouses of leaders and so if you just close our time in prayer I'd appreciate that let's do that and let's all bow our heads lord we pause here at this site and we do that at all of the other sites as well across the country and this nation and we pause and we ask for a special grace to be on your people yes Lord that we have a deep love for the things of God but we forget our humanity we forget our frailty our temporality Lord we ask that you would empower us afresh by your Holy Spirit I pray for the spouses of all of these that are serving you Lord that they will have a sense about them to be able to to catch to notice and to identify when we're starting down at a slide the side of a hill and to be able to grasp our hand and put our hand in yours Lord I pray for these supporters I pray Lord that you will help us to see you as the one who does it all and that we take our place with great privilege to be a part of that not all of that you be our all in all thank you for this candid conversation may be a holy moment on holy ground for many in Jesus name

Channel: Good Conversations

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Length: 38min 19sec (2299 seconds)

Published: Sat Nov 30 2019